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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?

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  • etznab@aol.com
    I don t have the book by Kabir that you mentioned. And I don t know that he ever mentioned ek onkar. Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked similar to
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
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      I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.
      And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

      Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked
      similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I
      believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I
      saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed
      over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks
      similar in some ways, but different.

      http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html

      Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and
      Kapila.

      In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh
      are mentioned here.

      http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html

      It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak
      Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

      The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the
      teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number
      of similarities. IMO.

      The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are
      curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya
      philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show
      the order and sequence of creation.)

      The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

      It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for
      Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by
      Kabir.

      The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

      The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.

      http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

      The apparent tendency in both systems seems
      to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

      From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

      "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:
      When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was
      incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the
      body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"

      http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

      I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described
      as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's
      story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,
      where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

      IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are
      the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths
      literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas
      that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal
      organized religious interpretations which may be far,
      far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-
      come disconnected from the true origins of their path
      appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"
      leading the "blind".

      As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

      See what I mean? :)

      For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)
      is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To
      look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

      Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and
      clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have
      visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't
      have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths
      except when they are taken literally and people don't see
      the difference between fiction and fact.

      Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can
      the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell
      from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

      I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from
      the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and
      keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same
      teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the
      lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

      Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-
      ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

      However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these
      stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.
      Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of
      them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those
      sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be
      they members of a particular religion or not - often have
      to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms
      of "torture" for speaking their minds.

      Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-
      pool and everything goes down the drain? :)

      Etznab






      -----Original Message-----
      From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
      Thinking?

       






      From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one
      (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.
       
      I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did
      (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,
      these two seemed to be on the same page,
      so to speak.
       
      Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?
       
      It is all poetry.
       
      Thanks for the link.
       
      Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where
      Kabir got this information.
       
      Do you know?  

      --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:


      From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
      Thinking?
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM


       

      That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
      supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
      connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
      all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

      R.T.

      Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
      about Kal Niranjan, etc.

      Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
      issued from Sat Purush.

      "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
      Niranjan was incarnated."

      http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&
      book=4817& page=23

      This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
      lower worlds were created.

      I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

      Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
      Eckankar?

      "No written instructions had been put
      down for the
      followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
      sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
      took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
      ancient science of Soul Travel."

      [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
      (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
      p. 59]

      And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
      Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
      gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
      Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
      Thinking?

       

      Hi there!
       
      The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
       
      Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
      short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
      my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
      idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
      point.
       
      I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
      son,
      but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
      the margins
      of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
      order
      to have any kind
      of relationship with Spirit.
       
      And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
      Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
       
      How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
       
      And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
       
      It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
       
      That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
      supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
      connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
      all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
       
      And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
      throughout history.
       
      Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
       
      I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
      say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
      psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
       
      If things go well, it is because of Harold. If
      not, it is because
      the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
       
      Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
       
      Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
       
      Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
       
      Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
      out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the
      unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
      BECAUSE of Eckankar!
       
      They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
      Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
       
      With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
      are in Eckankar.
       
      What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
      or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !
       
      What could be worse than that? 
       
      Or being "demoted" as a person in any
      way?
       
      They give all their power to the heirarchy.
       
      They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
      but it is psychological.
       
      Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
       
      The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
       
      But you knew that!
       
       
       
               
       
             

      --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
      wrote:

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
      Subject:
      [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
      Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

       

      Hello All,
      Thanks for sharing your
      comments and the info
      about these books!

      As far as "transcending
      religion" it seems that this
      is what we thought we were
      doing when we joined the
      "path" of Eckankar way back
      when.

      Early on, Eckankar seemed
      to have a certain mystique
      about it. The reality, now,
      is that it was never what we
      imagined or desired. This
      PT/HK consciousness is based
      upon delusions, lies, and
      manipulations frozen
      in time as meaningless and
      imagined experiences and
      dreams via Klemp's over-
      simplified and mind
      numbing
      hypnotic message. This is
      the "real" reason people fall
      asleep during his talks! And,
      there's No spiritual meat
      (protein)!

      The Eckankar message is
      merely a redundancy and
      regurgitation of empty 2nd
      and 4th Plane thoughts and
      words.

      PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
      Westernized rewrite of the

      Eastern thoughts and dogmas
      once borrowed and plagiarized
      (compiled) from Sant Mat
      religions (etc.), and from
      more knowledgeable/
      enlightened people by
      the trickster Twitchell.

      HK's EK "path" has not only
      become Christianized, but
      has also been exposed as
      just another "Feel Good"
      religious sect that preaches
      one thing and does another!
      It's a Codependent scam!

      Thus, the Klemps' egos
      are feeling pretty good
      right now and the "trickle-
      down effect" is still sustaining
      their EK followers/sheep/
      chickens in the same ways
      as other religions work
      their
      magic on the numb, dumb,
      fearful, and superstitious
      masses.

      Still, for Eckists who think
      they can see beyond the
      veil/void it's amazing to
      see that they are quite
      incapable of true change
      and of discovering the
      real path of TRUTH, and
      of experiencing the art
      of the obvious.

      Truth has escaped these
      Eckists and they will forever
      remain a pawn of the KAL
      and under Klemp's trance
      of providing "sales service."

      This, of course, benefits HK's
      selfish motives, and, on the
      other hand, it helps to give
      Eckists a "higher" purpose.
      This is why Klemp feels he
      is doing no harm since it
      provides of service for lost
      Souls until they become advanced
      enough to realize they don't
      need a middleman.

      However, the "catch" lies
      within the promises made
      and the innate desire of
      soul to "Know" God and to
      return Home again. Eckankar
      manipulates this desire
      with
      "initiations" that are turned
      into a KAL "Trap/Test."

      However, Not Desiring Initiations
      (via a pure heart) is another
      trap/test that has merely been
      disguised while the "desire"
      remains hidden from outer
      sight. Thus, it seems to be
      okay to "imagine" (and still
      desire)
      higher initiations on
      the "INNER" via the ruse of
      needing a Mahanta for more
      and more of these fake initiations
      in order to expand consciousness
      for more and more spiritual
      progress.

      Eckists are chasing their tails
      via Twitchell's and Klemp's
      rendition of circular logic and
      thinking. How can Self-Mastery
      and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
      in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
      is training Eckists to become
      more and more Codependent
      upon the Mahanta and their
      desires and attachments?

      Look at the ECK stories... they
      all require the intercession and
      help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
      via
      self-hypnosis and programming,
      (attachment) are being taught
      to call upon the Mahanta for
      anything and everything.. . but
      where is Soul and where is the
      ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
      one mouthes certain "charged"
      4th Plane words or thinks he/
      she is "detached" doesn't make

      it so!

      What's interesting is that these
      two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
      don't require money in order
      to maintain (outer and Inner
      initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
      but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
      needed! This is what structured
      (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
      order to control groups of people.
      I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
      don't want to see the correlation
      and connect-the- dots.

      Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
      the-dots? It probably has to do
      with their feelings of being "Superior
      Normal" and the delusion that
      gives them "all the answers" in
      order to alleviate their
      doubts
      and fears. The ego makes a better
      servant than it does a master,
      but with "initiations" and a "RESA
      hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
      ego from Soul.

      Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
      (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
      writes what she did, in the 09/2009
      H.I.
      Letter, one has to wonder...
      What has Klemp been teaching
      his followers since he's been
      in charge?

      Prometheus

      realbizarretarzs wrote:

      So true. I really enjoyed your
      experiment.

      I used to do that sort of stuff
      until it became more sad than
      amusing.

      Also, a while back, I forgot
      to mention the books of
      Alan Watts, starting with
      "The Way of Zen" and
      "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

      The second title, of course,
      is a paradox, but one that
      makes sense without having
      to go too far into the book
      to see what he is talking about.

      One doesn't have to be necessarily
      into Zen or even
      Buddhism to
      understand where he was coming
      from.

      His books are very easy to read
      and are somewhat humorous.

      Interestingly, he obtained
      a master's degree in theology
      and "divinity" but went on to
      write twenty to thirty books
      on Zen and Indian and
      Chinese
      philosophies, and the psychology
      of religion, and the importance
      of mysticism insofar as the
      individual transcending man-
      made religion.

      whitemoby wrote:

      Truth can never by systemized,
      no matter how eloquently.

      Moby

      Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

      In the story, Joseph Knecht,
      after following instructions
      to the letter, but not losing
      his intuition, begins to question
      everything, and comes to
      see "Castilia" (or, insert your
      favorite or not-so-favorite
      community Utopia) as a kind
      of ivory tower, oblivious to
      real life, and thus, reality.

      He begins to realize that,
      after many years, and
      many
      relationships, Castilia is a
      self-protected society that
      does little, if anything, for
      the world outside its borders,
      and is burderned by a hierarchy
      of personalities and games
      people play.

      I won't reveal any more than
      this, in
      case someone is
      currently reading "Magister
      Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
      but I will say this - throughout
      the whole story, Bruce Willis
      is dead.

      What?!?

      No, actually, the truth seeker,
      Knecht (which, in German,
      means servant and/or knight)
      (or so the Germans would have
      us believe) is, to the dumb-
      foundment of his "superiors",
      really looking for truth.

      No substitutes.

      I hope I didn't give away too
      much, as the book is almost
      600 pages long, but, actually,
      I haven't, because there is
      so much truth in the story
      that everytime I re-read it,
      I realize something new.

      I know we used to say that
      about certain
      ECK books
      (before Harold) but the
      stuff that Paul took from
      others is timeless as well.

      What was kind of amusing
      is that when I read the book
      the first time, Darwin was
      the "Master."

      One of the first main characters

      in the story is the "Music Master."

      prometheus wrote:

      Here's a review from Amazon.com
      of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

      "What is the Glass Bead Game?
      It is no less than the highest
      reason that an entire future
      civilization exists. It is the
      grand and ongoing synthesis
      of all knowledge into a unified,
      integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

      It is an attempt to forge a
      holographic intellectual world
      where all is interconnected and
      reflected in every part. This is
      a mission to weave the golden
      thread of significance and meaning
      through every part of a culture-
      science and the arts and the
      spiritual are all unified into a
      system of
      concentric, interpenetrating
      rings.

      All this is primarily accomplished
      by using the language of music
      and mathematics as common
      universal symbolism (the "glass
      beads" are part of a symbolic
      physical
      aid that was once used
      for this purpose.)

      It is no wonder that the book
      places the first origins of the
      game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
      and Socratic ethics. No wonder
      that the League of Journeyers
      to the East also figure prominently
      in its development. To some
      extent the Game has been the
      goal of all sensitive and introspective
      individuals and groups down
      through the ages.

      All of this stands in stark contrast
      to our own Feuilletonistic Age
      where all knowledge, all culture,
      is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
      largely meaningless babble.

      The crisis that develops from
      this is that even if you accomplish
      this grand synthesis in some isolated
      ivory tower refuge of
      intellectual
      contemplatives- it isn't enough.

      It is necessary to reach out to the
      entire society once it is achieved
      in the same way that a Bodhisattva
      attempts to enlighten the rest
      of
      mankind instead of individually
      passing onto Nirvana. The entire
      society must be made whole and
      sacred and not just an isolated elite.

      This is the realization that comes
      even to the Magister Ludi, the
      Master of the Game.

      For the game to be ultimately
      meaningful we have to coach
      everyone to eventually become
      Masters."

      ************ ********* ********* ****

      Thus, another reason to justify religion!
      Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
      outflow principle) be accomplished without
      the religious strings attached? Not by
      Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
      to their membership donations or else
      they can lose
      initiations!

      Prometheus
    • etznab@aol.com
      Some time ago I took notice of the words purukh (Purush) and Prakrti (Prakrta). How they contained similar sounds. At the heart of explanations for
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
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        Some time ago I took notice of the words
        "purukh" (Purush) and "Prakrti" (Prakrta).
        How they contained similar sounds.

        At the heart of explanations for creation
        and how "material" & "spiritual" coexist
        I found those two words. In Indian texts
        mostly.

        Both words begin by illustrating the con-
        sonants P + R. Prakrti, however, appears
        to have the Sanskrit root "kr", which IMO
        is connected with the ideas of action and
        karma. The "ti" part could be a "feminine"
        ending (I'm guessing).

        Both of those words are at the heart of
        creation according to certain teachings.
        They also contain the "letters" P + R +
        K (when you spell purush as purukh).

        Here are some etymologies that may,
        or may not help.

        prak - "Definitions: previously, before, first[ly]
        (Sanskrit).

        puru - "Definitions: 'much, many'." (Vedic)

        http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/vedol-4-X.html

        In the Vedas there is a Dawn Maiden
        by the name of Ushas, I believe.

        Ushas - "The lovely Hindu dawn maiden who
        sprung from the head of Dyaus. The twin sister
        of Nakt, or Ratri [the goddess of night] (Hindu
        Mythology). Associated spellings/words: usas
        ['shining; east'] (Sanskrit); uchanti ['shining']
        (Vedic); eos; aurora."

        Notice the word uchanti has a "c".

        The "c" in Purukh changing to "s" is not very
        uncommon. I've seen a number of cases where
        the "c" and "k" sounds evolve to "s".

        Viva La France! (Home of the Franks :)

        In some places the definition for "guru" means
        "dispeller of darkness". Now I wonder if that is
        connected to the idea of "light bearer"?

        Light and darkness are common symbols for
        good and evil. However, what does Purukh &
        Prakrta really symbolize? [BTW, the latter is
        connected with the gender that was once de-
        monized in the Bible. The feminine. Consider
        also how in many traditions the "Sat Guru" is
        (the vehicle of which, at least) is associated
        with the opposite, or "masculine" gender.]

        Is this really a very unique teaching? The idea
        that "God" is male & "Nature" is female? It is
        really quite common actually.

        In the Anurag Sagar it seemed that Kal Niranjan
        wanted to create a world or something. And here
        is what it said on the Sant Mat site:

        Fifth Shabda – Kal-Niranjan : Full name of the
        Negative Power, often shortened to Kal (q.v.).
        Niranjan means "beyond illusion," and is applied
        to Kal ("Time") because he is the creator of illusion.

        http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=24

        Kal, the creator of illusion, is Niranjan? Beyond
        illusion?

        Isn't that special :)

        Another name for Kal Niranjan on the site seems
        to be Dharam Rai. This being seems to be quite
        devotional to Sat Purush. One day, however, the
        being appears to say (these are in italics):

        "Oh, Sahaj, my brother – go and make this request
        to Sat Purush: I don't like this small place. Please
        give me a big kingdom. In my heart I have felt such
        love for Him! He should bless me with a big place.
        He should either give me the world of the gods, or
        else a separate world."

        http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25

        Sat Purush replies (also italics):

        After hearing the words of Sahaj, Sat Purush said this:

        "I am pleased with Dharam Rai; take this to your heart:
        I have given him the three Worlds, now go and tell him
        to develop the Void plane. Oh Sahaj, tell him to make
        his creation there."

        And at the bottom of the page it has a description for
        what is the void plane.

        "The Void Plane: The three worlds in their pre-existent
        state."

        http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25

        ***************************************************************

        Now I am wondering how old are these teachings, the
        story, whatever, in the Anurag Sagar? And how do I
        know they are the original, for one? And how do I know
        it is not the case of one person borrowing from another
        and making up their own version of things?

        Sant Mat and Eckankar both hearken back to Kabir
        when recounting the history of their teachings. And
        if Sant Mat was know earlier than the word - and the
        modern day - "Eckankar", Where did Sant Mat come
        from? Where did Kabir get his teachings? For that
        matter.

        This is a Wikipedia quote:

        The Sant Mat movement was not homogeneous, and
        consisted mostly of the Sants' own socio-religious
        attitudes which were based on bhakti (devotion) as
        described a thousand years earlier in the Bhagavad
        Gita.[3] Sharing as few conventions with each other as
        with the followers of the traditions they challenged, the
        Sants appear more as a diverse collection of spiritual
        personalities than a specific religious tradition, although
        they acknowledged a common spiritual root.[4]

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sant_Mat

        Whether true or not, that gave me the impression of
        so many people scattered around the area each with
        their own particular form of tradition.

        Here is a page with summary for the philosophy of
        Kabir.

        "The basic religious principles he espoused are simple.
        According to Kabir, all life is an interplay of two spiritual
        principles. One is the personal soul (Jivatma) and the
        other is God (Paramatma). It is Kabir's view that salvation
        is the process of bringing into union these two divine
        principles."

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir

        The bringing into union? Nanak appears to suggest the
        contact with Nam. And Radha Soami has the sound
        current before spiritual liberation. And before the sound
        current, has contact with a living master. Eckankar also
        appears to echo the Sat Guru, Shabda & Jivan Mukti
        paradigm (notice the word "jiva" in Jivan Mukti).

        I'm trying to spell out the "apparent" duality being here
        described in symbolic terms. For example, there are
        the terms "Atma" and "Jivatma". One appears to mean
        the "spiritual" principle of soul and the other the "living"
        principle (that tied to matter). Mystic Judaism and even
        Islam have different kinds of "souls", too. The "animal"
        soul, etc.

        What is the "common root" in all of this? Whatever it is
        there appear to be dozens of ways (and religions) trying
        to explain it. Now it so happens there are a number of
        different paths (Eckankar included?) which make seem
        as though the prerequisite for spiritual liberation means
        joining their particular group? Accepting their particular
        "Living Master" (prerequisite meaning what you need to
        do first)? Did I spell that right?

        Something is wrong with this picture if several different
        paths and religions have it that their version is the true
        version and all the others are somehow less. Offshoots,
        etc.

        This post is just a long-winded way of saying I doubt it
        that all appear to have a common root. Because if they
        did then somebody would have discovered it by now &
        painted a picture of the "plant" that has since evolved.
        Instead I see a whole orchard of "fruit trees" and even
        nobody is actually certain it was an "apple tree" in the
        Garden of Eden.

        If we had the "root" then wouldn't we have the truth?

        Etznab















        -----Original Message-----
        From: etznab@...
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 4:04 pm
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
        Thinking?

         








        I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.

        And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.



        Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked

        similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I

        believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I

        saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed

        over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks

        similar in some ways, but different.



        http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html



        Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and

        Kapila.



        In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh

        are mentioned here.



        http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html



        It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak

        Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)



        The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the

        teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number

        of similarities. IMO.



        The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are

        curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya

        philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show

        the order and sequence of creation.)



        The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).



        It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for

        Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by

        Kabir.



        The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.



        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya



        The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.



        http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23



        The apparent tendency in both systems seems

        to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".



        From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:



        "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:

        When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was

        incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the

        body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"



        http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23



        I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described

        as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's

        story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,

        where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".



        IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are

        the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths

        literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas

        that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal

        organized religious interpretations which may be far,

        far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-

        come disconnected from the true origins of their path

        appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"

        leading the "blind".



        As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!



        See what I mean? :)



        For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)

        is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To

        look at where they came from & how the history evolved.



        Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and

        clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have

        visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't

        have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths

        except when they are taken literally and people don't see

        the difference between fiction and fact.



        Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can

        the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell

        from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?



        I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from

        the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and

        keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same

        teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the

        lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?



        Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-

        ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?



        However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these

        stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.

        Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of

        them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those

        sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be

        they members of a particular religion or not - often have

        to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms

        of "torture" for speaking their minds.



        Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-

        pool and everything goes down the drain? :)



        Etznab



        -----Original Message-----

        From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>

        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am

        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

        Thinking?



         



        From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one

        (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.

         

        I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did

        (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,

        these two seemed to be on the same page,

        so to speak.

         

        Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?

         

        It is all poetry.

         

        Thanks for the link.

         

        Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where

        Kabir got this information.

         

        Do you know?  



        --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:



        From: etznab@... <etznab@...>

        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

        Thinking?

        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

        Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM



         



        That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

        supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to

        connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

        all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.



        R.T.



        Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know

        about Kal Niranjan, etc.



        Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas

        issued from Sat Purush.



        "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-

        Niranjan was incarnated."



        http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&

        book=4817& page=23



        This page tells about it. And the links go to how the

        lower worlds were created.



        I doubt that is all to be taken literally.



        Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on

        Eckankar?



        "No written instructions had been put

        down for the

        followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the

        sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,

        took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the

        ancient science of Soul Travel."



        [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1

        (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,

        p. 59]



        And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than

        Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly

        gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).



        Etznab



        -----Original Message-----

        From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>

        To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

        Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm

        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

        Thinking?



         



        Hi there!

         

        The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!

         

        Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published

        short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with

        my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my

        idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very

        point.

         

        I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's

        son,

        but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in

        the margins

        of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in

        order

        to have any kind

        of relationship with Spirit.

         

        And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 

        Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 

         

        How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

         

        And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

         

        It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.

         

        That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

        supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 

        connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

        all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

         

        And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"

        throughout history.

         

        Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

         

        I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,

        say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all

        psychologically open to auto-suggestion.

         

        If things go well, it is because of Harold. If

        not, it is because

        the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 

         

        Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

         

        Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

         

        Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.

         

        Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"

        out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the

        unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering

        BECAUSE of Eckankar!

         

        They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 

        Their little world of "Super Normal" people.

         

        With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"

        are in Eckankar.

         

        What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"

        or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !

         

        What could be worse than that? 

         

        Or being "demoted" as a person in any

        way?

         

        They give all their power to the heirarchy.

         

        They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,

        but it is psychological.

         

        Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 

         

        The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.

         

        But you knew that!

         

         

         

                 

         

               



        --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

        wrote:



        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

        Subject:

        [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?

        To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

        Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM



         



        Hello All,

        Thanks for sharing your

        comments and the info

        about these books!



        As far as "transcending

        religion" it seems that this

        is what we thought we were

        doing when we joined the

        "path" of Eckankar way back

        when.



        Early on, Eckankar seemed

        to have a certain mystique

        about it. The reality, now,

        is that it was never what we

        imagined or desired. This

        PT/HK consciousness is based

        upon delusions, lies, and

        manipulations frozen

        in time as meaningless and

        imagined experiences and

        dreams via Klemp's over-

        simplified and mind

        numbing

        hypnotic message. This is

        the "real" reason people fall

        asleep during his talks! And,

        there's No spiritual meat

        (protein)!



        The Eckankar message is

        merely a redundancy and

        regurgitation of empty 2nd

        and 4th Plane thoughts and

        words.



        PT's Eckankar is a New Age/

        Westernized rewrite of the



        Eastern thoughts and dogmas

        once borrowed and plagiarized

        (compiled) from Sant Mat

        religions (etc.), and from

        more knowledgeable/

        enlightened people by

        the trickster Twitchell.



        HK's EK "path" has not only

        become Christianized, but

        has also been exposed as

        just another "Feel Good"

        religious sect that preaches

        one thing and does another!

        It's a Codependent scam!



        Thus, the Klemps' egos

        are feeling pretty good

        right now and the "trickle-

        down effect" is still sustaining

        their EK followers/sheep/

        chickens in the same ways

        as other religions work

        their

        magic on the numb, dumb,

        fearful, and superstitious

        masses.



        Still, for Eckists who think

        they can see beyond the

        veil/void it's amazing to

        see that they are quite

        incapable of true change

        and of discovering the

        real path of TRUTH, and

        of experiencing the art

        of the obvious.



        Truth has escaped these

        Eckists and they will forever

        remain a pawn of the KAL

        and under Klemp's trance

        of providing "sales service."



        This, of course, benefits HK's

        selfish motives, and, on the

        other hand, it helps to give

        Eckists a "higher" purpose.

        This is why Klemp feels he

        is doing no harm since it

        provides of service for lost

        Souls until they become advanced

        enough to realize they don't

        need a middleman.



        However, the "catch" lies

        within the promises made

        and the innate desire of

        soul to "Know" God and to

        return Home again. Eckankar

        manipulates this desire

        with

        "initiations" that are turned

        into a KAL "Trap/Test."



        However, Not Desiring Initiations

        (via a pure heart) is another

        trap/test that has merely been

        disguised while the "desire"

        remains hidden from outer

        sight. Thus, it seems to be

        okay to "imagine" (and still

        desire)

        higher initiations on

        the "INNER" via the ruse of

        needing a Mahanta for more

        and more of these fake initiations

        in order to expand consciousness

        for more and more spiritual

        progress.



        Eckists are chasing their tails

        via Twitchell's and Klemp's

        rendition of circular logic and

        thinking. How can Self-Mastery

        and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished

        in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp

        is training Eckists to become

        more and more Codependent

        upon the Mahanta and their

        desires and attachments?



        Look at the ECK stories... they

        all require the intercession and

        help of the Mahanta. Eckists,

        via

        self-hypnosis and programming,

        (attachment) are being taught

        to call upon the Mahanta for

        anything and everything.. . but

        where is Soul and where is the

        ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because

        one mouthes certain "charged"

        4th Plane words or thinks he/

        she is "detached" doesn't make



        it so!



        What's interesting is that these

        two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)

        don't require money in order

        to maintain (outer and Inner

        initiations) a higher consciousness. ..

        but Klemp does! Initiations aren't

        needed! This is what structured

        (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in

        order to control groups of people.

        I'm amazed that Eckists can't or

        don't want to see the correlation

        and connect-the- dots.



        Why can't or won't Eckists connect-

        the-dots? It probably has to do

        with their feelings of being "Superior

        Normal" and the delusion that

        gives them "all the answers" in

        order to alleviate their

        doubts

        and fears. The ego makes a better

        servant than it does a master,

        but with "initiations" and a "RESA

        hierarchy" Eckists can't separate

        ego from Soul.



        Thus, when "Starting To Get It"

        (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)

        writes what she did, in the 09/2009

        H.I.

        Letter, one has to wonder...

        What has Klemp been teaching

        his followers since he's been

        in charge?



        Prometheus



        realbizarretarzs wrote:



        So true. I really enjoyed your

        experiment.



        I used to do that sort of stuff

        until it became more sad than

        amusing.



        Also, a while back, I forgot

        to mention the books of

        Alan Watts, starting with

        "The Way of Zen" and

        "The Wisdom of Insecurity".



        The second title, of course,

        is a paradox, but one that

        makes sense without having

        to go too far into the book

        to see what he is talking about.



        One doesn't have to be necessarily

        into Zen or even

        Buddhism to

        understand where he was coming

        from.



        His books are very easy to read

        and are somewhat humorous.



        Interestingly, he obtained

        a master's degree in theology

        and "divinity" but went on to

        write twenty to thirty books

        on Zen and Indian and

        Chinese

        philosophies, and the psychology

        of religion, and the importance

        of mysticism insofar as the

        individual transcending man-

        made religion.



        whitemoby wrote:



        Truth can never by systemized,

        no matter how eloquently.



        Moby



        Rebazar Tarzs wrote:



        In the story, Joseph Knecht,

        after following instructions

        to the letter, but not losing

        his intuition, begins to question

        everything, and comes to

        see "Castilia" (or, insert your

        favorite or not-so-favorite

        community Utopia) as a kind

        of ivory tower, oblivious to

        real life, and thus, reality.



        He begins to realize that,

        after many years, and

        many

        relationships, Castilia is a

        self-protected society that

        does little, if anything, for

        the world outside its borders,

        and is burderned by a hierarchy

        of personalities and games

        people play.



        I won't reveal any more than

        this, in

        case someone is

        currently reading "Magister

        Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"

        but I will say this - throughout

        the whole story, Bruce Willis

        is dead.



        What?!?



        No, actually, the truth seeker,

        Knecht (which, in German,

        means servant and/or knight)

        (or so the Germans would have

        us believe) is, to the dumb-

        foundment of his "superiors",

        really looking for truth.



        No substitutes.



        I hope I didn't give away too

        much, as the book is almost

        600 pages long, but, actually,

        I haven't, because there is

        so much truth in the story

        that everytime I re-read it,

        I realize something new.



        I know we used to say that

        about certain

        ECK books

        (before Harold) but the

        stuff that Paul took from

        others is timeless as well.



        What was kind of amusing

        is that when I read the book

        the first time, Darwin was

        the "Master."



        One of the first main characters



        in the story is the "Music Master."



        prometheus wrote:



        Here's a review from Amazon.com

        of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:



        "What is the Glass Bead Game?

        It is no less than the highest

        reason that an entire future

        civilization exists. It is the

        grand and ongoing synthesis

        of all knowledge into a unified,

        integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)



        It is an attempt to forge a

        holographic intellectual world

        where all is interconnected and

        reflected in every part. This is

        a mission to weave the golden

        thread of significance and meaning

        through every part of a culture-

        science and the arts and the

        spiritual are all unified into a

        system of

        concentric, interpenetrating

        rings.



        All this is primarily accomplished

        by using the language of music

        and mathematics as common

        universal symbolism (the "glass

        beads" are part of a symbolic

        physical

        aid that was once used

        for this purpose.)



        It is no wonder that the book

        places the first origins of the

        game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,

        and Socratic ethics. No wonder

        that the League of Journeyers

        to the East also figure prominently

        in its development. To some

        extent the Game has been the

        goal of all sensitive and introspective

        individuals and groups down

        through the ages.



        All of this stands in stark contrast

        to our own Feuilletonistic Age

        where all knowledge, all culture,

        is unsynthesized, chaotic, and

        largely meaningless babble.



        The crisis that develops from

        this is that even if you accomplish

        this grand synthesis in some isolated

        ivory tower refuge of

        intellectual

        contemplatives- it isn't enough.



        It is necessary to reach out to the

        entire society once it is achieved

        in the same way that a Bodhisattva

        attempts to enlighten the rest

        of

        mankind instead of individually

        passing onto Nirvana. The entire

        society must be made whole and

        sacred and not just an isolated elite.



        This is the realization that comes

        even to the Magister Ludi, the

        Master of the Game.



        For the game to be ultimately

        meaningful we have to coach

        everyone to eventually become

        Masters."



        ************ ********* ********* ****



        Thus, another reason to justify religion!

        Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/

        outflow principle) be accomplished without

        the religious strings attached? Not by

        Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached

        to their membership donations or else

        they can lose

        initiations!



        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Etznab and All, I m wondering why or if Eckists have ever noticed that their religion is dualistic versus non-dualistic. And, have Eckists ever pondered
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Etznab and All,
          I'm wondering why or if Eckists
          have ever noticed that their religion
          is dualistic versus non-dualistic.
          And, have Eckists ever pondered
          or contemplated on the differences
          between the two?

          With Klemp everything is black or
          white, pos. or neg., outer or inner,
          right or wrong, passion or virtue,
          low versus high.

          Myself... I don't see that these
          opposites have anything to do
          with the Divine. It's more about
          us and how religions have interpreted
          the Divine in order to analyze
          and explain or understand IT.


          Prometheus



          etznab wrote:


          I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.
          And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

          Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked
          similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I
          believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I
          saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed
          over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks
          similar in some ways, but different.

          http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html

          Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and
          Kapila.

          In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh
          are mentioned here.

          http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html

          It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak
          Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

          The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the
          teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number
          of similarities. IMO.

          The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are
          curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya
          philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show
          the order and sequence of creation.)

          The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

          It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for
          Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by
          Kabir.

          The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

          The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.

          http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

          The apparent tendency in both systems seems
          to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

          From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

          "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:
          When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was
          incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the
          body of Sat Purush â€" that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"

          http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

          I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described
          as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's
          story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,
          where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

          IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are
          the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths
          literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas
          that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal
          organized religious interpretations which may be far,
          far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-
          come disconnected from the true origins of their path
          appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"
          leading the "blind".

          As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

          See what I mean? :)

          For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)
          is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To
          look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

          Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and
          clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have
          visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't
          have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths
          except when they are taken literally and people don't see
          the difference between fiction and fact.

          Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can
          the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell
          from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

          I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from
          the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and
          keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same
          teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the
          lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

          Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-
          ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

          However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these
          stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.
          Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of
          them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those
          sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be
          they members of a particular religion or not - often have
          to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms
          of "torture" for speaking their minds.

          Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-
          pool and everything goes down the drain? :)

          Etznab
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