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Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?

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  • Moby
    Paul Twitchell himself once said, The most we can say about Truth is that is travels in a certain direction. And though he surely copied that from
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
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      Paul Twitchell himself once said, "The most we can say about Truth is that is travels in a certain direction." And though he surely copied that from somewhere, it affected me nonetheless. Too bad Eckankar went on to define Truth and Freedom right out of existence.

      I didn't do that experiment to be cruel, but to actually confirm something for myself. Eckists (at least, many of them) have unconsciosly "attached" to some nebulous, self serving notion of "Eckankar". You cannot use reason against so blind a motivation.

      Alan Watts has long been on my reading list. I may just move him up in the rotation.

      Moby....




      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...> wrote:
      >
      > So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.
      >  
      > I used to do that sort of stuff until it became 
      > more sad than amusing.
      >  
      > Also, a while back, I  forgot to mention the books of
      > Alan Watts, starting with "The Way of Zen" and
      > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
      >  
      > The second title, of course, is a paradox, but one that
      > makes sense without having to go too far into the book
      > to see what he is talking about.
      >  
      > One doesn't have to be necessarily into Zen or even
      > Buddhism to understand where he was coming from.
      >  
      > His books are very easy to read and are somewhat humorous.
      >  
      > Interestingly, he obtained a master's degree in theology and
      > "divinity" but went on  to write twenty to thirty books on Zen
      > and Indian and Chinese philosophies, and the psychology
      > of religion, and the importance of mysticism insofar as the
      > individual transcending man-made religion.    
      >
      > --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...>
      > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 3:26 PM
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
      >  
      > Moby
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
      > Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
      > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
      > losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
      > "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
      > as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
      >  
      > He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
      > Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
      > world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
      > and games people play.
      >  
      > I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
      > "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
      > the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
      >  
      > What?!?
      >  
      > No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
      > servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
      > is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
      >  
      > No substitutes.
      >  
      > I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
      > long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
      > that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
      >  
      > I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
      > but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
      >  
      > What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
      > Darwin was the "Master."
      >  
      > One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >   
      >
      > --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
      > Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      > Here's a review from Amazon.com
      > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
      >
      > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
      > It is no less than the highest
      > reason that an entire future
      > civilization exists. It is the
      > grand and ongoing synthesis
      > of all knowledge into a unified,
      > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
      >
      > It is an attempt to forge a
      > holographic intellectual world
      > where all is interconnected and
      > reflected in every part. This is
      > a mission to weave the golden
      > thread of significance and meaning
      > through every part of a culture-
      > science and the arts and the
      > spiritual are all unified into a
      > system of concentric, interpenetrating
      > rings.
      >
      > All this is primarily accomplished
      > by using the language of music
      > and mathematics as common
      > universal symbolism (the "glass
      > beads" are part of a symbolic
      > physical aid that was once used
      > for this purpose.)
      >
      > It is no wonder that the book
      > places the first origins of the
      > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
      > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
      > that the League of Journeyers
      > to the East also figure prominently
      > in its development. To some
      > extent the Game has been the
      > goal of all sensitive and introspective
      > individuals and groups down
      > through the ages.
      >
      > All of this stands in stark contrast
      > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
      > where all knowledge, all culture,
      > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
      > largely meaningless babble.
      >
      > The crisis that develops from
      > this is that even if you accomplish
      > this grand synthesis in some isolated
      > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
      > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
      >
      > It is necessary to reach out to the
      > entire society once it is achieved
      > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
      > attempts to enlighten the rest of
      > mankind instead of individually
      > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
      > society must be made whole and
      > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
      >
      > This is the realization that comes
      > even to the Magister Ludi, the
      > Master of the Game.
      >
      > For the game to be ultimately
      > meaningful we have to coach
      > everyone to eventually become
      > Masters."
      >
      > ************ ********* ********* ****
      >
      > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
      > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
      > outflow principle) be accomplished without
      > the religious strings attached? Not by
      > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
      > to their membership donations or else
      > they can lose initiations!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • Rebazar Tarzs
      A person who is a fanatic in matters of religion, and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe, becomes a person who has no faith ...
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        "A person who is a fanatic in matters of religion,
        and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God
        and the universe, becomes a person who has no
        faith ... True faith is to let go, and become open to truth,
        whatever it might turn out  to be ... But at any rate,
        the point is that God is what nobody admits to being,
        and everybody really is."
         
        -  Alan Watts
         
        It seems that Shams of Tabriz a/k/a Shams-i-Tabriz
        a/k/a Shamus-i-Tabriz, was saying the same thing.
         
        There is one discourse in which Paul says that he didn't
        know any of the "ECK Masters" until after he translated.
         
        He was the "Mahanta" and didn't know it.
         
        In other words, he didn't need any help from middle men.  
         
        Rumi accepted him as a guide, as would any intelligent
        seeker of truth, although most of Rumi's followers thought
        he was crazy for doing so. Of course, he did was he thought
        was best.    
         
        As Paul once said, "One learns by being around one who knows."   

        --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Moby <whitemoby22@...> wrote:

        From: Moby <whitemoby22@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 5:27 PM

         
        Paul Twitchell himself once said, "The most we can say about Truth is that is travels in a certain direction." And though he surely copied that from somewhere, it affected me nonetheless. Too bad Eckankar went on to define Truth and Freedom right out of existence.

        I didn't do that experiment to be cruel, but to actually confirm something for myself. Eckists (at least, many of them) have unconsciosly "attached" to some nebulous, self serving notion of "Eckankar". You cannot use reason against so blind a motivation.

        Alan Watts has long been on my reading list. I may just move him up in the rotation.

        Moby....

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.
        >  
        > I used to do that sort of stuff until it became 
        > more sad than amusing.
        >  
        > Also, a while back, I  forgot to mention the books of
        > Alan Watts, starting with "The Way of Zen" and
        > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
        >  
        > The second title, of course, is a paradox, but one that
        > makes sense without having to go too far into the book
        > to see what he is talking about.
        >  
        > One doesn't have to be necessarily into Zen or even
        > Buddhism to understand where he was coming from.
        >  
        > His books are very easy to read and are somewhat humorous.
        >  
        > Interestingly, he obtained a master's degree in theology and
        > "divinity" but went on  to write twenty to thirty books on Zen
        > and Indian and Chinese philosophies, and the psychology
        > of religion, and the importance of mysticism insofar as the
        > individual transcending man-made religion.    
        >
        > --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@ ...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@ ...>
        > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
        > Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 3:26 PM
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
        >  
        > Moby
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
        > Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
        > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
        > losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
        > "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
        > as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
        >  
        > He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
        > Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
        > world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
        > and games people play.
        >  
        > I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
        > "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
        > the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
        >  
        > What?!?
        >  
        > No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
        > servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
        > is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
        >  
        > No substitutes.
        >  
        > I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
        > long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
        > that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
        >  
        > I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
        > but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
        >  
        > What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
        > Darwin was the "Master."
        >  
        > One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >   
        >
        > --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
        > Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        > Here's a review from Amazon.com
        > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
        >
        > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
        > It is no less than the highest
        > reason that an entire future
        > civilization exists. It is the
        > grand and ongoing synthesis
        > of all knowledge into a unified,
        > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
        >
        > It is an attempt to forge a
        > holographic intellectual world
        > where all is interconnected and
        > reflected in every part. This is
        > a mission to weave the golden
        > thread of significance and meaning
        > through every part of a culture-
        > science and the arts and the
        > spiritual are all unified into a
        > system of concentric, interpenetrating
        > rings.
        >
        > All this is primarily accomplished
        > by using the language of music
        > and mathematics as common
        > universal symbolism (the "glass
        > beads" are part of a symbolic
        > physical aid that was once used
        > for this purpose.)
        >
        > It is no wonder that the book
        > places the first origins of the
        > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
        > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
        > that the League of Journeyers
        > to the East also figure prominently
        > in its development. To some
        > extent the Game has been the
        > goal of all sensitive and introspective
        > individuals and groups down
        > through the ages.
        >
        > All of this stands in stark contrast
        > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
        > where all knowledge, all culture,
        > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
        > largely meaningless babble.
        >
        > The crisis that develops from
        > this is that even if you accomplish
        > this grand synthesis in some isolated
        > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
        > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
        >
        > It is necessary to reach out to the
        > entire society once it is achieved
        > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
        > attempts to enlighten the rest of
        > mankind instead of individually
        > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
        > society must be made whole and
        > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
        >
        > This is the realization that comes
        > even to the Magister Ludi, the
        > Master of the Game.
        >
        > For the game to be ultimately
        > meaningful we have to coach
        > everyone to eventually become
        > Masters."
        >
        > ************ ********* ********* ****
        >
        > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
        > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
        > outflow principle) be accomplished without
        > the religious strings attached? Not by
        > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
        > to their membership donations or else
        > they can lose initiations!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >


      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, Thanks for sharing your comments and the info about these books! As far as transcending religion it seems that this is what we thought we were
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello All,
          Thanks for sharing your
          comments and the info
          about these books!

          As far as "transcending
          religion" it seems that this
          is what we thought we were
          doing when we joined the
          "path" of Eckankar way back
          when.

          Early on, Eckankar seemed
          to have a certain mystique
          about it. The reality, now,
          is that it was never what we
          imagined or desired. This
          PT/HK consciousness is based
          upon delusions, lies, and
          manipulations frozen
          in time as meaningless and
          imagined experiences and
          dreams via Klemp's over-
          simplified and mind numbing
          hypnotic message. This is
          the "real" reason people fall
          asleep during his talks! And,
          there's No spiritual meat
          (protein)!

          The Eckankar message is
          merely a redundancy and
          regurgitation of empty 2nd
          and 4th Plane thoughts and
          words.

          PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
          Westernized rewrite of the
          Eastern thoughts and dogmas
          once borrowed and plagiarized
          (compiled) from Sant Mat
          religions (etc.), and from
          more knowledgeable/
          enlightened people by
          the trickster Twitchell.

          HK's EK "path" has not only
          become Christianized, but
          has also been exposed as
          just another "Feel Good"
          religious sect that preaches
          one thing and does another!
          It's a Codependent scam!

          Thus, the Klemps' egos
          are feeling pretty good
          right now and the "trickle-
          down effect" is still sustaining
          their EK followers/sheep/
          chickens in the same ways
          as other religions work their
          magic on the numb, dumb,
          fearful, and superstitious
          masses.

          Still, for Eckists who think
          they can see beyond the
          veil/void it's amazing to
          see that they are quite
          incapable of true change
          and of discovering the
          real path of TRUTH, and
          of experiencing the art
          of the obvious.

          Truth has escaped these
          Eckists and they will forever
          remain a pawn of the KAL
          and under Klemp's trance
          of providing "sales service."

          This, of course, benefits HK's
          selfish motives, and, on the
          other hand, it helps to give
          Eckists a "higher" purpose.
          This is why Klemp feels he
          is doing no harm since it
          provides of service for lost
          Souls until they become advanced
          enough to realize they don't
          need a middleman.

          However, the "catch" lies
          within the promises made
          and the innate desire of
          soul to "Know" God and to
          return Home again. Eckankar
          manipulates this desire with
          "initiations" that are turned
          into a KAL "Trap/Test."

          However, Not Desiring Initiations
          (via a pure heart) is another
          trap/test that has merely been
          disguised while the "desire"
          remains hidden from outer
          sight. Thus, it seems to be
          okay to "imagine" (and still
          desire) higher initiations on
          the "INNER" via the ruse of
          needing a Mahanta for more
          and more of these fake initiations
          in order to expand consciousness
          for more and more spiritual
          progress.

          Eckists are chasing their tails
          via Twitchell's and Klemp's
          rendition of circular logic and
          thinking. How can Self-Mastery
          and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
          in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
          is training Eckists to become
          more and more Codependent
          upon the Mahanta and their
          desires and attachments?

          Look at the ECK stories... they
          all require the intercession and
          help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
          via self-hypnosis and programming,
          (attachment) are being taught
          to call upon the Mahanta for
          anything and everything... but
          where is Soul and where is the
          ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
          one mouthes certain "charged"
          4th Plane words or thinks he/
          she is "detached" doesn't make
          it so!

          What's interesting is that these
          two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
          don't require money in order
          to maintain (outer and Inner
          initiations) a higher consciousness...
          but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
          needed! This is what structured
          (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
          order to control groups of people.
          I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
          don't want to see the correlation
          and connect-the-dots.

          Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
          the-dots? It probably has to do
          with their feelings of being "Superior
          Normal" and the delusion that
          gives them "all the answers" in
          order to alleviate their doubts
          and fears. The ego makes a better
          servant than it does a master,
          but with "initiations" and a "RESA
          hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
          ego from Soul.

          Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
          (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
          writes what she did, in the 09/2009
          H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
          What has Klemp been teaching
          his followers since he's been
          in charge?

          Prometheus

          realbizarretarzs wrote:

          So true. I really enjoyed your
          experiment.

          I used to do that sort of stuff
          until it became more sad than
          amusing.

          Also, a while back, I forgot
          to mention the books of
          Alan Watts, starting with
          "The Way of Zen" and
          "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

          The second title, of course,
          is a paradox, but one that
          makes sense without having
          to go too far into the book
          to see what he is talking about.

          One doesn't have to be necessarily
          into Zen or even Buddhism to
          understand where he was coming
          from.

          His books are very easy to read
          and are somewhat humorous.

          Interestingly, he obtained
          a master's degree in theology
          and "divinity" but went on to
          write twenty to thirty books
          on Zen and Indian and Chinese
          philosophies, and the psychology
          of religion, and the importance
          of mysticism insofar as the
          individual transcending man-
          made religion.


          whitemoby wrote:


          Truth can never by systemized,
          no matter how eloquently.

          Moby

          Rebazar Tarzs wrote:


          In the story, Joseph Knecht,
          after following instructions
          to the letter, but not losing
          his intuition, begins to question
          everything, and comes to
          see "Castilia" (or, insert your
          favorite or not-so-favorite
          community Utopia) as a kind
          of ivory tower, oblivious to
          real life, and thus, reality.

          He begins to realize that,
          after many years, and many
          relationships, Castilia is a
          self-protected society that
          does little, if anything, for
          the world outside its borders,
          and is burderned by a hierarchy
          of personalities and games
          people play.

          I won't reveal any more than
          this, in case someone is
          currently reading "Magister
          Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
          but I will say this - throughout
          the whole story, Bruce Willis
          is dead.

          What?!?

          No, actually, the truth seeker,
          Knecht (which, in German,
          means servant and/or knight)
          (or so the Germans would have
          us believe) is, to the dumb-
          foundment of his "superiors",
          really looking for truth.

          No substitutes.

          I hope I didn't give away too
          much, as the book is almost
          600 pages long, but, actually,
          I haven't, because there is
          so much truth in the story
          that everytime I re-read it,
          I realize something new.

          I know we used to say that
          about certain ECK books
          (before Harold) but the
          stuff that Paul took from
          others is timeless as well.

          What was kind of amusing
          is that when I read the book
          the first time, Darwin was
          the "Master."

          One of the first main characters
          in the story is the "Music Master."


          prometheus wrote:

          Here's a review from Amazon.com
          of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

          "What is the Glass Bead Game?
          It is no less than the highest
          reason that an entire future
          civilization exists. It is the
          grand and ongoing synthesis
          of all knowledge into a unified,
          integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

          It is an attempt to forge a
          holographic intellectual world
          where all is interconnected and
          reflected in every part. This is
          a mission to weave the golden
          thread of significance and meaning
          through every part of a culture-
          science and the arts and the
          spiritual are all unified into a
          system of concentric, interpenetrating
          rings.

          All this is primarily accomplished
          by using the language of music
          and mathematics as common
          universal symbolism (the "glass
          beads" are part of a symbolic
          physical aid that was once used
          for this purpose.)

          It is no wonder that the book
          places the first origins of the
          game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
          and Socratic ethics. No wonder
          that the League of Journeyers
          to the East also figure prominently
          in its development. To some
          extent the Game has been the
          goal of all sensitive and introspective
          individuals and groups down
          through the ages.

          All of this stands in stark contrast
          to our own Feuilletonistic Age
          where all knowledge, all culture,
          is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
          largely meaningless babble.

          The crisis that develops from
          this is that even if you accomplish
          this grand synthesis in some isolated
          ivory tower refuge of intellectual
          contemplatives- it isn't enough.

          It is necessary to reach out to the
          entire society once it is achieved
          in the same way that a Bodhisattva
          attempts to enlighten the rest of
          mankind instead of individually
          passing onto Nirvana. The entire
          society must be made whole and
          sacred and not just an isolated elite.

          This is the realization that comes
          even to the Magister Ludi, the
          Master of the Game.

          For the game to be ultimately
          meaningful we have to coach
          everyone to eventually become
          Masters."

          **********************************

          Thus, another reason to justify religion!
          Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
          outflow principle) be accomplished without
          the religious strings attached? Not by
          Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
          to their membership donations or else
          they can lose initiations!

          Prometheus
        • Rebazar Tarzs
          Hi there!   The intercession part is the part I really don t understand!   Because of Key To Secret Worlds and the previously published short articles
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi there!
             
            The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
             
            Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
            short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
            my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
            idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
            point.
             
            I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's son,
            but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in the margins
            of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in order
            to have any kind of relationship with Spirit.
             
            And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
            Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
             
            How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
             
            And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
             
            It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
             
            That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
            supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
            connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
            all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
             
            And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
            throughout history.
             
            Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
             
            I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
            say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
            psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
             
            If things go well, it is because of Harold. If not, it is because
            the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
             
            Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
             
            Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
             
            Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
             
            Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
            out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences", but fear of the
            unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
            BECAUSE of Eckankar!
             
            They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
            Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
             
            With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
            are in Eckankar.
             
            What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
            or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations"!
             
            What could be worse than that? 
             
            Or being "demoted" as a person in any way?
             
            They give all their power to the heirarchy.
             
            They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
            but it is psychological.
             
            Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
             
            The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
             
            But you knew that!
             
             
             
                     
             
                   

            --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

             
            Hello All,
            Thanks for sharing your
            comments and the info
            about these books!

            As far as "transcending
            religion" it seems that this
            is what we thought we were
            doing when we joined the
            "path" of Eckankar way back
            when.

            Early on, Eckankar seemed
            to have a certain mystique
            about it. The reality, now,
            is that it was never what we
            imagined or desired. This
            PT/HK consciousness is based
            upon delusions, lies, and
            manipulations frozen
            in time as meaningless and
            imagined experiences and
            dreams via Klemp's over-
            simplified and mind numbing
            hypnotic message. This is
            the "real" reason people fall
            asleep during his talks! And,
            there's No spiritual meat
            (protein)!

            The Eckankar message is
            merely a redundancy and
            regurgitation of empty 2nd
            and 4th Plane thoughts and
            words.

            PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
            Westernized rewrite of the
            Eastern thoughts and dogmas
            once borrowed and plagiarized
            (compiled) from Sant Mat
            religions (etc.), and from
            more knowledgeable/
            enlightened people by
            the trickster Twitchell.

            HK's EK "path" has not only
            become Christianized, but
            has also been exposed as
            just another "Feel Good"
            religious sect that preaches
            one thing and does another!
            It's a Codependent scam!

            Thus, the Klemps' egos
            are feeling pretty good
            right now and the "trickle-
            down effect" is still sustaining
            their EK followers/sheep/
            chickens in the same ways
            as other religions work their
            magic on the numb, dumb,
            fearful, and superstitious
            masses.

            Still, for Eckists who think
            they can see beyond the
            veil/void it's amazing to
            see that they are quite
            incapable of true change
            and of discovering the
            real path of TRUTH, and
            of experiencing the art
            of the obvious.

            Truth has escaped these
            Eckists and they will forever
            remain a pawn of the KAL
            and under Klemp's trance
            of providing "sales service."

            This, of course, benefits HK's
            selfish motives, and, on the
            other hand, it helps to give
            Eckists a "higher" purpose.
            This is why Klemp feels he
            is doing no harm since it
            provides of service for lost
            Souls until they become advanced
            enough to realize they don't
            need a middleman.

            However, the "catch" lies
            within the promises made
            and the innate desire of
            soul to "Know" God and to
            return Home again. Eckankar
            manipulates this desire with
            "initiations" that are turned
            into a KAL "Trap/Test."

            However, Not Desiring Initiations
            (via a pure heart) is another
            trap/test that has merely been
            disguised while the "desire"
            remains hidden from outer
            sight. Thus, it seems to be
            okay to "imagine" (and still
            desire) higher initiations on
            the "INNER" via the ruse of
            needing a Mahanta for more
            and more of these fake initiations
            in order to expand consciousness
            for more and more spiritual
            progress.

            Eckists are chasing their tails
            via Twitchell's and Klemp's
            rendition of circular logic and
            thinking. How can Self-Mastery
            and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
            in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
            is training Eckists to become
            more and more Codependent
            upon the Mahanta and their
            desires and attachments?

            Look at the ECK stories... they
            all require the intercession and
            help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
            via self-hypnosis and programming,
            (attachment) are being taught
            to call upon the Mahanta for
            anything and everything.. . but
            where is Soul and where is the
            ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
            one mouthes certain "charged"
            4th Plane words or thinks he/
            she is "detached" doesn't make
            it so!

            What's interesting is that these
            two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
            don't require money in order
            to maintain (outer and Inner
            initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
            but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
            needed! This is what structured
            (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
            order to control groups of people.
            I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
            don't want to see the correlation
            and connect-the- dots.

            Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
            the-dots? It probably has to do
            with their feelings of being "Superior
            Normal" and the delusion that
            gives them "all the answers" in
            order to alleviate their doubts
            and fears. The ego makes a better
            servant than it does a master,
            but with "initiations" and a "RESA
            hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
            ego from Soul.

            Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
            (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
            writes what she did, in the 09/2009
            H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
            What has Klemp been teaching
            his followers since he's been
            in charge?

            Prometheus

            realbizarretarzs wrote:

            So true. I really enjoyed your
            experiment.

            I used to do that sort of stuff
            until it became more sad than
            amusing.

            Also, a while back, I forgot
            to mention the books of
            Alan Watts, starting with
            "The Way of Zen" and
            "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

            The second title, of course,
            is a paradox, but one that
            makes sense without having
            to go too far into the book
            to see what he is talking about.

            One doesn't have to be necessarily
            into Zen or even Buddhism to
            understand where he was coming
            from.

            His books are very easy to read
            and are somewhat humorous.

            Interestingly, he obtained
            a master's degree in theology
            and "divinity" but went on to
            write twenty to thirty books
            on Zen and Indian and Chinese
            philosophies, and the psychology
            of religion, and the importance
            of mysticism insofar as the
            individual transcending man-
            made religion.

            whitemoby wrote:

            Truth can never by systemized,
            no matter how eloquently.

            Moby

            Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

            In the story, Joseph Knecht,
            after following instructions
            to the letter, but not losing
            his intuition, begins to question
            everything, and comes to
            see "Castilia" (or, insert your
            favorite or not-so-favorite
            community Utopia) as a kind
            of ivory tower, oblivious to
            real life, and thus, reality.

            He begins to realize that,
            after many years, and many
            relationships, Castilia is a
            self-protected society that
            does little, if anything, for
            the world outside its borders,
            and is burderned by a hierarchy
            of personalities and games
            people play.

            I won't reveal any more than
            this, in case someone is
            currently reading "Magister
            Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
            but I will say this - throughout
            the whole story, Bruce Willis
            is dead.

            What?!?

            No, actually, the truth seeker,
            Knecht (which, in German,
            means servant and/or knight)
            (or so the Germans would have
            us believe) is, to the dumb-
            foundment of his "superiors",
            really looking for truth.

            No substitutes.

            I hope I didn't give away too
            much, as the book is almost
            600 pages long, but, actually,
            I haven't, because there is
            so much truth in the story
            that everytime I re-read it,
            I realize something new.

            I know we used to say that
            about certain ECK books
            (before Harold) but the
            stuff that Paul took from
            others is timeless as well.

            What was kind of amusing
            is that when I read the book
            the first time, Darwin was
            the "Master."

            One of the first main characters
            in the story is the "Music Master."


            prometheus wrote:

            Here's a review from Amazon.com
            of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

            "What is the Glass Bead Game?
            It is no less than the highest
            reason that an entire future
            civilization exists. It is the
            grand and ongoing synthesis
            of all knowledge into a unified,
            integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

            It is an attempt to forge a
            holographic intellectual world
            where all is interconnected and
            reflected in every part. This is
            a mission to weave the golden
            thread of significance and meaning
            through every part of a culture-
            science and the arts and the
            spiritual are all unified into a
            system of concentric, interpenetrating
            rings.

            All this is primarily accomplished
            by using the language of music
            and mathematics as common
            universal symbolism (the "glass
            beads" are part of a symbolic
            physical aid that was once used
            for this purpose.)

            It is no wonder that the book
            places the first origins of the
            game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
            and Socratic ethics. No wonder
            that the League of Journeyers
            to the East also figure prominently
            in its development. To some
            extent the Game has been the
            goal of all sensitive and introspective
            individuals and groups down
            through the ages.

            All of this stands in stark contrast
            to our own Feuilletonistic Age
            where all knowledge, all culture,
            is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
            largely meaningless babble.

            The crisis that develops from
            this is that even if you accomplish
            this grand synthesis in some isolated
            ivory tower refuge of intellectual
            contemplatives- it isn't enough.

            It is necessary to reach out to the
            entire society once it is achieved
            in the same way that a Bodhisattva
            attempts to enlighten the rest of
            mankind instead of individually
            passing onto Nirvana. The entire
            society must be made whole and
            sacred and not just an isolated elite.

            This is the realization that comes
            even to the Magister Ludi, the
            Master of the Game.

            For the game to be ultimately
            meaningful we have to coach
            everyone to eventually become
            Masters."

            ************ ********* ********* ****

            Thus, another reason to justify religion!
            Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
            outflow principle) be accomplished without
            the religious strings attached? Not by
            Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
            to their membership donations or else
            they can lose initiations!

            Prometheus


          • prometheus_973
            Hello All, In the Catholic Church there are all types within the spiritual hierarchy that can intercede with God on the behalf of man. Twitchell and Klemp
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello All,
              In the Catholic Church there
              are all types within the "spiritual
              hierarchy" that can intercede
              with God on the behalf of man.
              Twitchell and Klemp merely
              copied this as well and added
              EK Masters and a Mahanta!

              http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6146

              The thing about doing research
              on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
              version (with "c" added) along
              with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
              more than 50 years ago!

              This No Contact is strange
              (not really) since Rebazar has
              been around for 500 years, in
              the same physical body, and
              even sailed with Columbus
              (according to Klemp)!

              Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
              mentioning REBAZAR (the
              Torchbearer) by name nor
              is there anything written by
              RT (in his own hand) for 500
              years!

              And, since Rebazar does
              (supposedly) have a 500
              year old physical body why
              didn't he show up before and
              after Twit died versus Gail
              having to use a dream from
              Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?

              Why hasn't RT shown up at
              an EK Seminar in all of these
              years and given a talk? Is he
              too good for that?

              If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
              isn't too good or too "high"
              to give a Seminar talk why
              can't Rebazar appear and
              give one too? He is a physical
              being, still! Thus, RT should
              be expected to show up every
              now and then. But... he hasn't
              ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
              dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
              it because he pissed HK off by
              never showing up at an EK Seminar!

              Prometheus

              realbizarretarzs wrote:

              Hi there!

              The intercession part is the
              part I really don't understand!

              Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
              and the previously published short
              articles found in "In My Soul I Am
              Free," I was at odds with my
              Presbyterian minister while taking
              confirmation classes (not my idea,
              of course, but my parents' idea of
              a good time) over this very point.

              I got the highest grades on everything,
              even higher than the minister's son,
              but the minister was always trying
              to convince me, and wrote stuff in
              the margins of my essays, that
              intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
              necessary in order to have any kind
              of relationship with Spirit.

              And I agree with you about everything
              else you just said. Was Paul paying
              Rebazar $160.00 a year?

              How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

              And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

              It's funny that you mention connecting
              the dots.

              That is when I began to discover the
              books we weren't supposed to know
              about. In the nineties I was trying to
              connect the dots, to trace the "history"
              of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
              least 5,000 years B.C.

              And by doing so, I was also researching
              "EK" and "HU" throughout history.

              Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

              I think it is just a big psychological
              circus that takes place, say, for an
              example, at a major seminar. People
              get all psychologically open to auto-
              suggestion.

              If things go well, it is because of Harold.
              If not, it is because the chela has not
              been doing his or her "homework."

              Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

              Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

              Harold can dish it out both ways.
              And eat the cake himself.

              Again, just like with most religions,
              people stay with "Eckankar" out of
              fear, not just fear of the "consequences",
              but fear of the unknown - something
              they are supposed to be conquering
              BECAUSE of Eckankar!

              They can't because they are clinging
              to the known world. Their little world
              of "Super Normal" people.

              With alot of these people, most or
              all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.

              What would they think? And the
              idea of letting others "below" or
              "beneath" them passing them up
              in "initiations"!

              What could be worse than that?

              Or being "demoted" as a person
              in any way?

              They give all their power to the
              heirarchy.

              They are powerless to help themselves.
              Not really, of course, but it is psychological.

              Whatever happened to power,
              wisdom and freedom?

              The answer, my friend, is blowing
              in the wind.

              But you knew that!



              prometheus wrote:

              Hello All,
              Thanks for sharing your
              comments and the info
              about these books!

              As far as "transcending
              religion" it seems that this
              is what we thought we were
              doing when we joined the
              "path" of Eckankar way back
              when.

              Early on, Eckankar seemed
              to have a certain mystique
              about it. The reality, now,
              is that it was never what we
              imagined or desired. This
              PT/HK consciousness is based
              upon delusions, lies, and
              manipulations frozen
              in time as meaningless and
              imagined experiences and
              dreams via Klemp's over-
              simplified and mind numbing
              hypnotic message. This is
              the "real" reason people fall
              asleep during his talks! And,
              there's No spiritual meat
              (protein)!

              The Eckankar message is
              merely a redundancy and
              regurgitation of empty 2nd
              and 4th Plane thoughts and
              words.

              PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
              Westernized rewrite of the
              Eastern thoughts and dogmas
              once borrowed and plagiarized
              (compiled) from Sant Mat
              religions (etc.), and from
              more knowledgeable/
              enlightened people by
              the trickster Twitchell.

              HK's EK "path" has not only
              become Christianized, but
              has also been exposed as
              just another "Feel Good"
              religious sect that preaches
              one thing and does another!
              It's a Codependent scam!

              Thus, the Klemps' egos
              are feeling pretty good
              right now and the "trickle-
              down effect" is still sustaining
              their EK followers/sheep/
              chickens in the same ways
              as other religions work their
              magic on the numb, dumb,
              fearful, and superstitious
              masses.

              Still, for Eckists who think
              they can see beyond the
              veil/void it's amazing to
              see that they are quite
              incapable of true change
              and of discovering the
              real path of TRUTH, and
              of experiencing the art
              of the obvious.

              Truth has escaped these
              Eckists and they will forever
              remain a pawn of the KAL
              and under Klemp's trance
              of providing "sales service."

              This, of course, benefits HK's
              selfish motives, and, on the
              other hand, it helps to give
              Eckists a "higher" purpose.
              This is why Klemp feels he
              is doing no harm since it
              provides of service for lost
              Souls until they become advanced
              enough to realize they don't
              need a middleman.

              However, the "catch" lies
              within the promises made
              and the innate desire of
              soul to "Know" God and to
              return Home again. Eckankar
              manipulates this desire with
              "initiations" that are turned
              into a KAL "Trap/Test."

              However, Not Desiring Initiations
              (via a pure heart) is another
              trap/test that has merely been
              disguised while the "desire"
              remains hidden from outer
              sight. Thus, it seems to be
              okay to "imagine" (and still
              desire) higher initiations on
              the "INNER" via the ruse of
              needing a Mahanta for more
              and more of these fake initiations
              in order to expand consciousness
              for more and more spiritual
              progress.

              Eckists are chasing their tails
              via Twitchell's and Klemp's
              rendition of circular logic and
              thinking. How can Self-Mastery
              and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
              in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
              is training Eckists to become
              more and more Codependent
              upon the Mahanta and their
              desires and attachments?

              Look at the ECK stories... they
              all require the intercession and
              help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
              via self-hypnosis and programming,
              (attachment) are being taught
              to call upon the Mahanta for
              anything and everything.. . but
              where is Soul and where is the
              ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
              one mouthes certain "charged"
              4th Plane words or thinks he/
              she is "detached" doesn't make
              it so!

              What's interesting is that these
              two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
              don't require money in order
              to maintain (outer and Inner
              initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
              but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
              needed! This is what structured
              (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
              order to control groups of people.
              I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
              don't want to see the correlation
              and connect-the- dots.

              Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
              the-dots? It probably has to do
              with their feelings of being "Superior
              Normal" and the delusion that
              gives them "all the answers" in
              order to alleviate their doubts
              and fears. The ego makes a better
              servant than it does a master,
              but with "initiations" and a "RESA
              hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
              ego from Soul.

              Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
              (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
              writes what she did, in the 09/2009
              H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
              What has Klemp been teaching
              his followers since he's been
              in charge?

              Prometheus

              realbizarretarzs wrote:

              So true. I really enjoyed your
              experiment.

              I used to do that sort of stuff
              until it became more sad than
              amusing.

              Also, a while back, I forgot
              to mention the books of
              Alan Watts, starting with
              "The Way of Zen" and
              "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

              The second title, of course,
              is a paradox, but one that
              makes sense without having
              to go too far into the book
              to see what he is talking about.

              One doesn't have to be necessarily
              into Zen or even Buddhism to
              understand where he was coming
              from.

              His books are very easy to read
              and are somewhat humorous.

              Interestingly, he obtained
              a master's degree in theology
              and "divinity" but went on to
              write twenty to thirty books
              on Zen and Indian and Chinese
              philosophies, and the psychology
              of religion, and the importance
              of mysticism insofar as the
              individual transcending man-
              made religion.

              whitemoby wrote:

              Truth can never by systemized,
              no matter how eloquently.

              Moby

              Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

              In the story, Joseph Knecht,
              after following instructions
              to the letter, but not losing
              his intuition, begins to question
              everything, and comes to
              see "Castilia" (or, insert your
              favorite or not-so-favorite
              community Utopia) as a kind
              of ivory tower, oblivious to
              real life, and thus, reality.

              He begins to realize that,
              after many years, and many
              relationships, Castilia is a
              self-protected society that
              does little, if anything, for
              the world outside its borders,
              and is burderned by a hierarchy
              of personalities and games
              people play.

              I won't reveal any more than
              this, in case someone is
              currently reading "Magister
              Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
              but I will say this - throughout
              the whole story, Bruce Willis
              is dead.

              What?!?

              No, actually, the truth seeker,
              Knecht (which, in German,
              means servant and/or knight)
              (or so the Germans would have
              us believe) is, to the dumb-
              foundment of his "superiors",
              really looking for truth.

              No substitutes.

              I hope I didn't give away too
              much, as the book is almost
              600 pages long, but, actually,
              I haven't, because there is
              so much truth in the story
              that everytime I re-read it,
              I realize something new.

              I know we used to say that
              about certain ECK books
              (before Harold) but the
              stuff that Paul took from
              others is timeless as well.

              What was kind of amusing
              is that when I read the book
              the first time, Darwin was
              the "Master."

              One of the first main characters
              in the story is the "Music Master."


              prometheus wrote:

              Here's a review from Amazon.com
              of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

              "What is the Glass Bead Game?
              It is no less than the highest
              reason that an entire future
              civilization exists. It is the
              grand and ongoing synthesis
              of all knowledge into a unified,
              integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

              It is an attempt to forge a
              holographic intellectual world
              where all is interconnected and
              reflected in every part. This is
              a mission to weave the golden
              thread of significance and meaning
              through every part of a culture-
              science and the arts and the
              spiritual are all unified into a
              system of concentric, interpenetrating
              rings.

              All this is primarily accomplished
              by using the language of music
              and mathematics as common
              universal symbolism (the "glass
              beads" are part of a symbolic
              physical aid that was once used
              for this purpose.)

              It is no wonder that the book
              places the first origins of the
              game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
              and Socratic ethics. No wonder
              that the League of Journeyers
              to the East also figure prominently
              in its development. To some
              extent the Game has been the
              goal of all sensitive and introspective
              individuals and groups down
              through the ages.

              All of this stands in stark contrast
              to our own Feuilletonistic Age
              where all knowledge, all culture,
              is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
              largely meaningless babble.

              The crisis that develops from
              this is that even if you accomplish
              this grand synthesis in some isolated
              ivory tower refuge of intellectual
              contemplatives- it isn't enough.

              It is necessary to reach out to the
              entire society once it is achieved
              in the same way that a Bodhisattva
              attempts to enlighten the rest of
              mankind instead of individually
              passing onto Nirvana. The entire
              society must be made whole and
              sacred and not just an isolated elite.

              This is the realization that comes
              even to the Magister Ludi, the
              Master of the Game.

              For the game to be ultimately
              meaningful we have to coach
              everyone to eventually become
              Masters."

              **********************************

              Thus, another reason to justify religion!
              Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
              outflow principle) be accomplished without
              the religious strings attached? Not by
              Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
              to their membership donations or else
              they can lose initiations!

              Prometheus
            • Rebazar Tarzs
              You re right. Maybe Rebazar died and Harold was afraid to talk about it.   After all, he still hasn t mentioned the death of the 972nd Mahanta!          
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                You're right. Maybe Rebazar died and Harold was afraid to talk about it.
                 
                After all, he still hasn't mentioned the death of the 972nd Mahanta!
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 


                --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 9:42 PM

                 
                Hello All,
                In the Catholic Church there
                are all types within the "spiritual
                hierarchy" that can intercede
                with God on the behalf of man.
                Twitchell and Klemp merely
                copied this as well and added
                EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                http://www.catholic .org/encyclopedi a/view.php? id=6146

                The thing about doing research
                on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                version (with "c" added) along
                with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                more than 50 years ago!

                This No Contact is strange
                (not really) since Rebazar has
                been around for 500 years, in
                the same physical body, and
                even sailed with Columbus
                (according to Klemp)!

                Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                mentioning REBAZAR (the
                Torchbearer) by name nor
                is there anything written by
                RT (in his own hand) for 500
                years!

                And, since Rebazar does
                (supposedly) have a 500
                year old physical body why
                didn't he show up before and
                after Twit died versus Gail
                having to use a dream from
                Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?

                Why hasn't RT shown up at
                an EK Seminar in all of these
                years and given a talk? Is he
                too good for that?

                If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                isn't too good or too "high"
                to give a Seminar talk why
                can't Rebazar appear and
                give one too? He is a physical
                being, still! Thus, RT should
                be expected to show up every
                now and then. But... he hasn't
                ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                it because he pissed HK off by
                never showing up at an EK Seminar!

                Prometheus

                realbizarretarzs wrote:

                Hi there!

                The intercession part is the
                part I really don't understand!

                Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                and the previously published short
                articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                Free," I was at odds with my
                Presbyterian minister while taking
                confirmation classes (not my idea,
                of course, but my parents' idea of
                a good time) over this very point.

                I got the highest grades on everything,
                even higher than the minister's son,
                but the minister was always trying
                to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                the margins of my essays, that
                intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                necessary in order to have any kind
                of relationship with Spirit.

                And I agree with you about everything
                else you just said. Was Paul paying
                Rebazar $160.00 a year?

                How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

                And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

                It's funny that you mention connecting
                the dots.

                That is when I began to discover the
                books we weren't supposed to know
                about. In the nineties I was trying to
                connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                least 5,000 years B.C.

                And by doing so, I was also researching
                "EK" and "HU" throughout history.

                Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

                I think it is just a big psychological
                circus that takes place, say, for an
                example, at a major seminar. People
                get all psychologically open to auto-
                suggestion.

                If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                If not, it is because the chela has not
                been doing his or her "homework."

                Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

                Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

                Harold can dish it out both ways.
                And eat the cake himself.

                Again, just like with most religions,
                people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                but fear of the unknown - something
                they are supposed to be conquering
                BECAUSE of Eckankar!

                They can't because they are clinging
                to the known world. Their little world
                of "Super Normal" people.

                With alot of these people, most or
                all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.

                What would they think? And the
                idea of letting others "below" or
                "beneath" them passing them up
                in "initiations" !

                What could be worse than that?

                Or being "demoted" as a person
                in any way?

                They give all their power to the
                heirarchy.

                They are powerless to help themselves.
                Not really, of course, but it is psychological.

                Whatever happened to power,
                wisdom and freedom?

                The answer, my friend, is blowing
                in the wind.

                But you knew that!



                prometheus wrote:

                Hello All,
                Thanks for sharing your
                comments and the info
                about these books!

                As far as "transcending
                religion" it seems that this
                is what we thought we were
                doing when we joined the
                "path" of Eckankar way back
                when.

                Early on, Eckankar seemed
                to have a certain mystique
                about it. The reality, now,
                is that it was never what we
                imagined or desired. This
                PT/HK consciousness is based
                upon delusions, lies, and
                manipulations frozen
                in time as meaningless and
                imagined experiences and
                dreams via Klemp's over-
                simplified and mind numbing
                hypnotic message. This is
                the "real" reason people fall
                asleep during his talks! And,
                there's No spiritual meat
                (protein)!

                The Eckankar message is
                merely a redundancy and
                regurgitation of empty 2nd
                and 4th Plane thoughts and
                words.

                PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                Westernized rewrite of the
                Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                once borrowed and plagiarized
                (compiled) from Sant Mat
                religions (etc.), and from
                more knowledgeable/
                enlightened people by
                the trickster Twitchell.

                HK's EK "path" has not only
                become Christianized, but
                has also been exposed as
                just another "Feel Good"
                religious sect that preaches
                one thing and does another!
                It's a Codependent scam!

                Thus, the Klemps' egos
                are feeling pretty good
                right now and the "trickle-
                down effect" is still sustaining
                their EK followers/sheep/
                chickens in the same ways
                as other religions work their
                magic on the numb, dumb,
                fearful, and superstitious
                masses.

                Still, for Eckists who think
                they can see beyond the
                veil/void it's amazing to
                see that they are quite
                incapable of true change
                and of discovering the
                real path of TRUTH, and
                of experiencing the art
                of the obvious.

                Truth has escaped these
                Eckists and they will forever
                remain a pawn of the KAL
                and under Klemp's trance
                of providing "sales service."

                This, of course, benefits HK's
                selfish motives, and, on the
                other hand, it helps to give
                Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                This is why Klemp feels he
                is doing no harm since it
                provides of service for lost
                Souls until they become advanced
                enough to realize they don't
                need a middleman.

                However, the "catch" lies
                within the promises made
                and the innate desire of
                soul to "Know" God and to
                return Home again. Eckankar
                manipulates this desire with
                "initiations" that are turned
                into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                However, Not Desiring Initiations
                (via a pure heart) is another
                trap/test that has merely been
                disguised while the "desire"
                remains hidden from outer
                sight. Thus, it seems to be
                okay to "imagine" (and still
                desire) higher initiations on
                the "INNER" via the ruse of
                needing a Mahanta for more
                and more of these fake initiations
                in order to expand consciousness
                for more and more spiritual
                progress.

                Eckists are chasing their tails
                via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                rendition of circular logic and
                thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                is training Eckists to become
                more and more Codependent
                upon the Mahanta and their
                desires and attachments?

                Look at the ECK stories... they
                all require the intercession and
                help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                via self-hypnosis and programming,
                (attachment) are being taught
                to call upon the Mahanta for
                anything and everything.. . but
                where is Soul and where is the
                ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                one mouthes certain "charged"
                4th Plane words or thinks he/
                she is "detached" doesn't make
                it so!

                What's interesting is that these
                two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                don't require money in order
                to maintain (outer and Inner
                initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                needed! This is what structured
                (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                order to control groups of people.
                I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                don't want to see the correlation
                and connect-the- dots.

                Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                the-dots? It probably has to do
                with their feelings of being "Superior
                Normal" and the delusion that
                gives them "all the answers" in
                order to alleviate their doubts
                and fears. The ego makes a better
                servant than it does a master,
                but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                ego from Soul.

                Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                What has Klemp been teaching
                his followers since he's been
                in charge?

                Prometheus

                realbizarretarzs wrote:

                So true. I really enjoyed your
                experiment.

                I used to do that sort of stuff
                until it became more sad than
                amusing.

                Also, a while back, I forgot
                to mention the books of
                Alan Watts, starting with
                "The Way of Zen" and
                "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                The second title, of course,
                is a paradox, but one that
                makes sense without having
                to go too far into the book
                to see what he is talking about.

                One doesn't have to be necessarily
                into Zen or even Buddhism to
                understand where he was coming
                from.

                His books are very easy to read
                and are somewhat humorous.

                Interestingly, he obtained
                a master's degree in theology
                and "divinity" but went on to
                write twenty to thirty books
                on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                philosophies, and the psychology
                of religion, and the importance
                of mysticism insofar as the
                individual transcending man-
                made religion.

                whitemoby wrote:

                Truth can never by systemized,
                no matter how eloquently.

                Moby

                Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                after following instructions
                to the letter, but not losing
                his intuition, begins to question
                everything, and comes to
                see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                favorite or not-so-favorite
                community Utopia) as a kind
                of ivory tower, oblivious to
                real life, and thus, reality.

                He begins to realize that,
                after many years, and many
                relationships, Castilia is a
                self-protected society that
                does little, if anything, for
                the world outside its borders,
                and is burderned by a hierarchy
                of personalities and games
                people play.

                I won't reveal any more than
                this, in case someone is
                currently reading "Magister
                Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                but I will say this - throughout
                the whole story, Bruce Willis
                is dead.

                What?!?

                No, actually, the truth seeker,
                Knecht (which, in German,
                means servant and/or knight)
                (or so the Germans would have
                us believe) is, to the dumb-
                foundment of his "superiors",
                really looking for truth.

                No substitutes.

                I hope I didn't give away too
                much, as the book is almost
                600 pages long, but, actually,
                I haven't, because there is
                so much truth in the story
                that everytime I re-read it,
                I realize something new.

                I know we used to say that
                about certain ECK books
                (before Harold) but the
                stuff that Paul took from
                others is timeless as well.

                What was kind of amusing
                is that when I read the book
                the first time, Darwin was
                the "Master."

                One of the first main characters
                in the story is the "Music Master."

                prometheus wrote:

                Here's a review from Amazon.com
                of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                It is no less than the highest
                reason that an entire future
                civilization exists. It is the
                grand and ongoing synthesis
                of all knowledge into a unified,
                integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                It is an attempt to forge a
                holographic intellectual world
                where all is interconnected and
                reflected in every part. This is
                a mission to weave the golden
                thread of significance and meaning
                through every part of a culture-
                science and the arts and the
                spiritual are all unified into a
                system of concentric, interpenetrating
                rings.

                All this is primarily accomplished
                by using the language of music
                and mathematics as common
                universal symbolism (the "glass
                beads" are part of a symbolic
                physical aid that was once used
                for this purpose.)

                It is no wonder that the book
                places the first origins of the
                game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                that the League of Journeyers
                to the East also figure prominently
                in its development. To some
                extent the Game has been the
                goal of all sensitive and introspective
                individuals and groups down
                through the ages.

                All of this stands in stark contrast
                to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                where all knowledge, all culture,
                is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                largely meaningless babble.

                The crisis that develops from
                this is that even if you accomplish
                this grand synthesis in some isolated
                ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                It is necessary to reach out to the
                entire society once it is achieved
                in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                attempts to enlighten the rest of
                mankind instead of individually
                passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                society must be made whole and
                sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                This is the realization that comes
                even to the Magister Ludi, the
                Master of the Game.

                For the game to be ultimately
                meaningful we have to coach
                everyone to eventually become
                Masters."

                ************ ********* ********* ****

                Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                outflow principle) be accomplished without
                the religious strings attached? Not by
                Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                to their membership donations or else
                they can lose initiations!

                Prometheus


              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, Do you think Klemp will mention that Darwin died at this up coming Seminar? If Rebazar died, as well, maybe that will be the excuse to make Joan an
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello All,
                  Do you think Klemp will
                  mention that Darwin died
                  at this up coming Seminar?

                  If Rebazar died, as well,
                  maybe that will be the
                  excuse to make Joan an
                  EK Master... to take
                  Rebazar's place! Or,
                  would she finally be
                  taking Darwin's place?

                  BTW - I found a new way
                  that Klemp and Company
                  can make more money.

                  http://www.saintsforsinners.com/medalsgallery.html

                  This site is "Saints for Sinners"
                  where people can buy a medallion
                  with their favorite Saint painted
                  upon it. All Eckankar has to do
                  is substitute the EK Masters for
                  the Saints... like Twitchell did!
                  Anyway, I'm sure that every Eckist
                  would buy a Rebazar Medallion
                  for whatever the cost!

                  Prometheus


                  realbizarretarzs wrote:

                  You're right. Maybe Rebazar
                  died and Harold was afraid
                  to talk about it.

                  After all, he still hasn't mentioned
                  the death of the 972nd Mahanta!


                  prometheus wrote:

                  > Hello All,
                  > In the Catholic Church there
                  > are all types within the "spiritual
                  > hierarchy" that can intercede
                  > with God on the behalf of man.
                  > Twitchell and Klemp merely
                  > copied this as well and added
                  > EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                  http://www.catholic .org/encyclopedi a/view.php? id=6146

                  > The thing about doing research
                  > on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                  > version (with "c" added) along
                  > with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                  > more than 50 years ago!
                  >
                  > This No Contact is strange
                  > (not really) since Rebazar has
                  > been around for 500 years, in
                  > the same physical body, and
                  > even sailed with Columbus
                  > (according to Klemp)!
                  >
                  > Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                  > mentioning REBAZAR (the
                  > Torchbearer) by name nor
                  > is there anything written by
                  > RT (in his own hand) for 500
                  > years!
                  >
                  > And, since Rebazar does
                  > (supposedly) have a 500
                  > year old physical body why
                  > didn't he show up before and
                  > after Twit died versus Gail
                  > having to use a dream from
                  > Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?
                  >
                  > Why hasn't RT shown up at
                  > an EK Seminar in all of these
                  > years and given a talk? Is he
                  > too good for that?
                  >
                  > If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                  > isn't too good or too "high"
                  > to give a Seminar talk why
                  > can't Rebazar appear and
                  > give one too? He is a physical
                  > being, still! Thus, RT should
                  > be expected to show up every
                  > now and then. But... he hasn't
                  > ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                  > dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                  > it because he pissed HK off by
                  > never showing up at an EK Seminar!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi there!
                  >
                  > The intercession part is the
                  > part I really don't understand!
                  >
                  > Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                  > and the previously published short
                  > articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                  > Free," I was at odds with my
                  > Presbyterian minister while taking
                  > confirmation classes (not my idea,
                  > of course, but my parents' idea of
                  > a good time) over this very point.
                  >
                  > I got the highest grades on everything,
                  > even higher than the minister's son,
                  > but the minister was always trying
                  > to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                  > the margins of my essays, that
                  > intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                  > necessary in order to have any kind
                  > of relationship with Spirit.
                  >
                  > And I agree with you about everything
                  > else you just said. Was Paul paying
                  > Rebazar $160.00 a year?
                  >
                  > How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                  >
                  > And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                  >
                  > It's funny that you mention connecting
                  > the dots.
                  >
                  > That is when I began to discover the
                  > books we weren't supposed to know
                  > about. In the nineties I was trying to
                  > connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                  > of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                  > least 5,000 years B.C.
                  >
                  > And by doing so, I was also researching
                  > "EK" and "HU" throughout history.
                  >
                  > Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                  >
                  > I think it is just a big psychological
                  > circus that takes place, say, for an
                  > example, at a major seminar. People
                  > get all psychologically open to auto-
                  > suggestion.
                  >
                  > If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                  > If not, it is because the chela has not
                  > been doing his or her "homework."
                  >
                  > Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                  >
                  > Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                  >
                  > Harold can dish it out both ways.
                  > And eat the cake himself.
                  >
                  > Again, just like with most religions,
                  > people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                  > fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                  > but fear of the unknown - something
                  > they are supposed to be conquering
                  > BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                  >
                  > They can't because they are clinging
                  > to the known world. Their little world
                  > of "Super Normal" people.
                  >
                  > With alot of these people, most or
                  > all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.
                  >
                  > What would they think? And the
                  > idea of letting others "below" or
                  > "beneath" them passing them up
                  > in "initiations" !
                  >
                  > What could be worse than that?
                  >
                  > Or being "demoted" as a person
                  > in any way?
                  >
                  > They give all their power to the
                  > heirarchy.
                  >
                  > They are powerless to help themselves.
                  > Not really, of course, but it is psychological.
                  >
                  > Whatever happened to power,
                  > wisdom and freedom?
                  >
                  > The answer, my friend, is blowing
                  > in the wind.
                  >
                  > But you knew that!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  > Thanks for sharing your
                  > comments and the info
                  > about these books!
                  >
                  > As far as "transcending
                  > religion" it seems that this
                  > is what we thought we were
                  > doing when we joined the
                  > "path" of Eckankar way back
                  > when.
                  >
                  > Early on, Eckankar seemed
                  > to have a certain mystique
                  > about it. The reality, now,
                  > is that it was never what we
                  > imagined or desired. This
                  > PT/HK consciousness is based
                  > upon delusions, lies, and
                  > manipulations frozen
                  > in time as meaningless and
                  > imagined experiences and
                  > dreams via Klemp's over-
                  > simplified and mind numbing
                  > hypnotic message. This is
                  > the "real" reason people fall
                  > asleep during his talks! And,
                  > there's No spiritual meat
                  > (protein)!
                  >
                  > The Eckankar message is
                  > merely a redundancy and
                  > regurgitation of empty 2nd
                  > and 4th Plane thoughts and
                  > words.
                  >
                  > PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                  > Westernized rewrite of the
                  > Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                  > once borrowed and plagiarized
                  > (compiled) from Sant Mat
                  > religions (etc.), and from
                  > more knowledgeable/
                  > enlightened people by
                  > the trickster Twitchell.
                  >
                  > HK's EK "path" has not only
                  > become Christianized, but
                  > has also been exposed as
                  > just another "Feel Good"
                  > religious sect that preaches
                  > one thing and does another!
                  > It's a Codependent scam!
                  >
                  > Thus, the Klemps' egos
                  > are feeling pretty good
                  > right now and the "trickle-
                  > down effect" is still sustaining
                  > their EK followers/sheep/
                  > chickens in the same ways
                  > as other religions work their
                  > magic on the numb, dumb,
                  > fearful, and superstitious
                  > masses.
                  >
                  > Still, for Eckists who think
                  > they can see beyond the
                  > veil/void it's amazing to
                  > see that they are quite
                  > incapable of true change
                  > and of discovering the
                  > real path of TRUTH, and
                  > of experiencing the art
                  > of the obvious.
                  >
                  > Truth has escaped these
                  > Eckists and they will forever
                  > remain a pawn of the KAL
                  > and under Klemp's trance
                  > of providing "sales service."
                  >
                  > This, of course, benefits HK's
                  > selfish motives, and, on the
                  > other hand, it helps to give
                  > Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                  > This is why Klemp feels he
                  > is doing no harm since it
                  > provides of service for lost
                  > Souls until they become advanced
                  > enough to realize they don't
                  > need a middleman.
                  >
                  > However, the "catch" lies
                  > within the promises made
                  > and the innate desire of
                  > soul to "Know" God and to
                  > return Home again. Eckankar
                  > manipulates this desire with
                  > "initiations" that are turned
                  > into a KAL "Trap/Test."
                  >
                  > However, Not Desiring Initiations
                  > (via a pure heart) is another
                  > trap/test that has merely been
                  > disguised while the "desire"
                  > remains hidden from outer
                  > sight. Thus, it seems to be
                  > okay to "imagine" (and still
                  > desire) higher initiations on
                  > the "INNER" via the ruse of
                  > needing a Mahanta for more
                  > and more of these fake initiations
                  > in order to expand consciousness
                  > for more and more spiritual
                  > progress.
                  >
                  > Eckists are chasing their tails
                  > via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                  > rendition of circular logic and
                  > thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                  > and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                  > in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                  > is training Eckists to become
                  > more and more Codependent
                  > upon the Mahanta and their
                  > desires and attachments?
                  >
                  > Look at the ECK stories... they
                  > all require the intercession and
                  > help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                  > via self-hypnosis and programming,
                  > (attachment) are being taught
                  > to call upon the Mahanta for
                  > anything and everything.. . but
                  > where is Soul and where is the
                  > ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                  > one mouthes certain "charged"
                  > 4th Plane words or thinks he/
                  > she is "detached" doesn't make
                  > it so!
                  >
                  > What's interesting is that these
                  > two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                  > don't require money in order
                  > to maintain (outer and Inner
                  > initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                  > but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                  > needed! This is what structured
                  > (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                  > order to control groups of people.
                  > I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                  > don't want to see the correlation
                  > and connect-the- dots.
                  >
                  > Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                  > the-dots? It probably has to do
                  > with their feelings of being "Superior
                  > Normal" and the delusion that
                  > gives them "all the answers" in
                  > order to alleviate their doubts
                  > and fears. The ego makes a better
                  > servant than it does a master,
                  > but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                  > hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                  > ego from Soul.
                  >
                  > Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                  > (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                  > writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                  > H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                  > What has Klemp been teaching
                  > his followers since he's been
                  > in charge?
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                  >
                  > So true. I really enjoyed your
                  > experiment.
                  >
                  > I used to do that sort of stuff
                  > until it became more sad than
                  > amusing.
                  >
                  > Also, a while back, I forgot
                  > to mention the books of
                  > Alan Watts, starting with
                  > "The Way of Zen" and
                  > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                  >
                  > The second title, of course,
                  > is a paradox, but one that
                  > makes sense without having
                  > to go too far into the book
                  > to see what he is talking about.
                  >
                  > One doesn't have to be necessarily
                  > into Zen or even Buddhism to
                  > understand where he was coming
                  > from.
                  >
                  > His books are very easy to read
                  > and are somewhat humorous.
                  >
                  > Interestingly, he obtained
                  > a master's degree in theology
                  > and "divinity" but went on to
                  > write twenty to thirty books
                  > on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                  > philosophies, and the psychology
                  > of religion, and the importance
                  > of mysticism insofar as the
                  > individual transcending man-
                  > made religion.
                  >
                  > whitemoby wrote:
                  >
                  > Truth can never by systemized,
                  > no matter how eloquently.
                  >
                  > Moby
                  >
                  > Rebazar Tarzs wrote:
                  >
                  > In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                  > after following instructions
                  > to the letter, but not losing
                  > his intuition, begins to question
                  > everything, and comes to
                  > see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                  > favorite or not-so-favorite
                  > community Utopia) as a kind
                  > of ivory tower, oblivious to
                  > real life, and thus, reality.
                  >
                  > He begins to realize that,
                  > after many years, and many
                  > relationships, Castilia is a
                  > self-protected society that
                  > does little, if anything, for
                  > the world outside its borders,
                  > and is burderned by a hierarchy
                  > of personalities and games
                  > people play.
                  >
                  > I won't reveal any more than
                  > this, in case someone is
                  > currently reading "Magister
                  > Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                  > but I will say this - throughout
                  > the whole story, Bruce Willis
                  > is dead.
                  >
                  > What?!?
                  >
                  > No, actually, the truth seeker,
                  > Knecht (which, in German,
                  > means servant and/or knight)
                  > (or so the Germans would have
                  > us believe) is, to the dumb-
                  > foundment of his "superiors",
                  > really looking for truth.
                  >
                  > No substitutes.
                  >
                  > I hope I didn't give away too
                  > much, as the book is almost
                  > 600 pages long, but, actually,
                  > I haven't, because there is
                  > so much truth in the story
                  > that everytime I re-read it,
                  > I realize something new.
                  >
                  > I know we used to say that
                  > about certain ECK books
                  > (before Harold) but the
                  > stuff that Paul took from
                  > others is timeless as well.
                  >
                  > What was kind of amusing
                  > is that when I read the book
                  > the first time, Darwin was
                  > the "Master."
                  >
                  > One of the first main characters
                  > in the story is the "Music Master."
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                  > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                  >
                  > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                  > It is no less than the highest
                  > reason that an entire future
                  > civilization exists. It is the
                  > grand and ongoing synthesis
                  > of all knowledge into a unified,
                  > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                  >
                  > It is an attempt to forge a
                  > holographic intellectual world
                  > where all is interconnected and
                  > reflected in every part. This is
                  > a mission to weave the golden
                  > thread of significance and meaning
                  > through every part of a culture-
                  > science and the arts and the
                  > spiritual are all unified into a
                  > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                  > rings.
                  >
                  > All this is primarily accomplished
                  > by using the language of music
                  > and mathematics as common
                  > universal symbolism (the "glass
                  > beads" are part of a symbolic
                  > physical aid that was once used
                  > for this purpose.)
                  >
                  > It is no wonder that the book
                  > places the first origins of the
                  > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                  > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                  > that the League of Journeyers
                  > to the East also figure prominently
                  > in its development. To some
                  > extent the Game has been the
                  > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                  > individuals and groups down
                  > through the ages.
                  >
                  > All of this stands in stark contrast
                  > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                  > where all knowledge, all culture,
                  > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                  > largely meaningless babble.
                  >
                  > The crisis that develops from
                  > this is that even if you accomplish
                  > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                  > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                  > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                  >
                  > It is necessary to reach out to the
                  > entire society once it is achieved
                  > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                  > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                  > mankind instead of individually
                  > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                  > society must be made whole and
                  > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                  >
                  > This is the realization that comes
                  > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                  > Master of the Game.
                  >
                  > For the game to be ultimately
                  > meaningful we have to coach
                  > everyone to eventually become
                  > Masters."
                  >
                  **********************************
                  >
                  > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                  > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                  > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                  > the religious strings attached? Not by
                  > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                  > to their membership donations or else
                  > they can lose initiations!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                • Rebazar Tarzs
                  I am surprised that Harold hasn t already announced the ascension of Rebazar into whatever plane and/or wisdom temple already,  because that would get the 500
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 13, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I am surprised that Harold hasn't already announced the
                    ascension of Rebazar into whatever plane and/or wisdom temple
                    already,  because that would get the 500 Plus Year OId Man
                    thing out of his hair. 
                     
                    That would make Reb just another past master, one that no one can
                    prove did not exist.
                     
                    The EK Master medallion is a great idea.
                     
                    Are they waiting for the price of fool's gold to come down?   

                    --- On Tue, 10/13/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 6:14 AM

                     
                    Hello All,
                    Do you think Klemp will
                    mention that Darwin died
                    at this up coming Seminar?

                    If Rebazar died, as well,
                    maybe that will be the
                    excuse to make Joan an
                    EK Master... to take
                    Rebazar's place! Or,
                    would she finally be
                    taking Darwin's place?

                    BTW - I found a new way
                    that Klemp and Company
                    can make more money.

                    http://www.saintsfo rsinners. com/medalsgaller y.html

                    This site is "Saints for Sinners"
                    where people can buy a medallion
                    with their favorite Saint painted
                    upon it. All Eckankar has to do
                    is substitute the EK Masters for
                    the Saints... like Twitchell did!
                    Anyway, I'm sure that every Eckist
                    would buy a Rebazar Medallion
                    for whatever the cost!

                    Prometheus

                    realbizarretarzs wrote:

                    You're right. Maybe Rebazar
                    died and Harold was afraid
                    to talk about it.

                    After all, he still hasn't mentioned
                    the death of the 972nd Mahanta!


                    prometheus wrote:

                    > Hello All,
                    > In the Catholic Church there
                    > are all types within the "spiritual
                    > hierarchy" that can intercede
                    > with God on the behalf of man.
                    > Twitchell and Klemp merely
                    > copied this as well and added
                    > EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                    http://www.catholic .org/encyclopedi a/view.php? id=6146

                    > The thing about doing research
                    > on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                    > version (with "c" added) along
                    > with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                    > more than 50 years ago!
                    >
                    > This No Contact is strange
                    > (not really) since Rebazar has
                    > been around for 500 years, in
                    > the same physical body, and
                    > even sailed with Columbus
                    > (according to Klemp)!
                    >
                    > Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                    > mentioning REBAZAR (the
                    > Torchbearer) by name nor
                    > is there anything written by
                    > RT (in his own hand) for 500
                    > years!
                    >
                    > And, since Rebazar does
                    > (supposedly) have a 500
                    > year old physical body why
                    > didn't he show up before and
                    > after Twit died versus Gail
                    > having to use a dream from
                    > Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?
                    >
                    > Why hasn't RT shown up at
                    > an EK Seminar in all of these
                    > years and given a talk? Is he
                    > too good for that?
                    >
                    > If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                    > isn't too good or too "high"
                    > to give a Seminar talk why
                    > can't Rebazar appear and
                    > give one too? He is a physical
                    > being, still! Thus, RT should
                    > be expected to show up every
                    > now and then. But... he hasn't
                    > ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                    > dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                    > it because he pissed HK off by
                    > never showing up at an EK Seminar!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi there!
                    >
                    > The intercession part is the
                    > part I really don't understand!
                    >
                    > Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                    > and the previously published short
                    > articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                    > Free," I was at odds with my
                    > Presbyterian minister while taking
                    > confirmation classes (not my idea,
                    > of course, but my parents' idea of
                    > a good time) over this very point.
                    >
                    > I got the highest grades on everything,
                    > even higher than the minister's son,
                    > but the minister was always trying
                    > to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                    > the margins of my essays, that
                    > intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                    > necessary in order to have any kind
                    > of relationship with Spirit.
                    >
                    > And I agree with you about everything
                    > else you just said. Was Paul paying
                    > Rebazar $160.00 a year?
                    >
                    > How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                    >
                    > And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                    >
                    > It's funny that you mention connecting
                    > the dots.
                    >
                    > That is when I began to discover the
                    > books we weren't supposed to know
                    > about. In the nineties I was trying to
                    > connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                    > of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                    > least 5,000 years B.C.
                    >
                    > And by doing so, I was also researching
                    > "EK" and "HU" throughout history.
                    >
                    > Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                    >
                    > I think it is just a big psychological
                    > circus that takes place, say, for an
                    > example, at a major seminar. People
                    > get all psychologically open to auto-
                    > suggestion.
                    >
                    > If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                    > If not, it is because the chela has not
                    > been doing his or her "homework."
                    >
                    > Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                    >
                    > Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                    >
                    > Harold can dish it out both ways.
                    > And eat the cake himself.
                    >
                    > Again, just like with most religions,
                    > people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                    > fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                    > but fear of the unknown - something
                    > they are supposed to be conquering
                    > BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                    >
                    > They can't because they are clinging
                    > to the known world. Their little world
                    > of "Super Normal" people.
                    >
                    > With alot of these people, most or
                    > all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.
                    >
                    > What would they think? And the
                    > idea of letting others "below" or
                    > "beneath" them passing them up
                    > in "initiations" !
                    >
                    > What could be worse than that?
                    >
                    > Or being "demoted" as a person
                    > in any way?
                    >
                    > They give all their power to the
                    > heirarchy.
                    >
                    > They are powerless to help themselves.
                    > Not really, of course, but it is psychological.
                    >
                    > Whatever happened to power,
                    > wisdom and freedom?
                    >
                    > The answer, my friend, is blowing
                    > in the wind.
                    >
                    > But you knew that!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    > Thanks for sharing your
                    > comments and the info
                    > about these books!
                    >
                    > As far as "transcending
                    > religion" it seems that this
                    > is what we thought we were
                    > doing when we joined the
                    > "path" of Eckankar way back
                    > when.
                    >
                    > Early on, Eckankar seemed
                    > to have a certain mystique
                    > about it. The reality, now,
                    > is that it was never what we
                    > imagined or desired. This
                    > PT/HK consciousness is based
                    > upon delusions, lies, and
                    > manipulations frozen
                    > in time as meaningless and
                    > imagined experiences and
                    > dreams via Klemp's over-
                    > simplified and mind numbing
                    > hypnotic message. This is
                    > the "real" reason people fall
                    > asleep during his talks! And,
                    > there's No spiritual meat
                    > (protein)!
                    >
                    > The Eckankar message is
                    > merely a redundancy and
                    > regurgitation of empty 2nd
                    > and 4th Plane thoughts and
                    > words.
                    >
                    > PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                    > Westernized rewrite of the
                    > Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                    > once borrowed and plagiarized
                    > (compiled) from Sant Mat
                    > religions (etc.), and from
                    > more knowledgeable/
                    > enlightened people by
                    > the trickster Twitchell.
                    >
                    > HK's EK "path" has not only
                    > become Christianized, but
                    > has also been exposed as
                    > just another "Feel Good"
                    > religious sect that preaches
                    > one thing and does another!
                    > It's a Codependent scam!
                    >
                    > Thus, the Klemps' egos
                    > are feeling pretty good
                    > right now and the "trickle-
                    > down effect" is still sustaining
                    > their EK followers/sheep/
                    > chickens in the same ways
                    > as other religions work their
                    > magic on the numb, dumb,
                    > fearful, and superstitious
                    > masses.
                    >
                    > Still, for Eckists who think
                    > they can see beyond the
                    > veil/void it's amazing to
                    > see that they are quite
                    > incapable of true change
                    > and of discovering the
                    > real path of TRUTH, and
                    > of experiencing the art
                    > of the obvious.
                    >
                    > Truth has escaped these
                    > Eckists and they will forever
                    > remain a pawn of the KAL
                    > and under Klemp's trance
                    > of providing "sales service."
                    >
                    > This, of course, benefits HK's
                    > selfish motives, and, on the
                    > other hand, it helps to give
                    > Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                    > This is why Klemp feels he
                    > is doing no harm since it
                    > provides of service for lost
                    > Souls until they become advanced
                    > enough to realize they don't
                    > need a middleman.
                    >
                    > However, the "catch" lies
                    > within the promises made
                    > and the innate desire of
                    > soul to "Know" God and to
                    > return Home again. Eckankar
                    > manipulates this desire with
                    > "initiations" that are turned
                    > into a KAL "Trap/Test."
                    >
                    > However, Not Desiring Initiations
                    > (via a pure heart) is another
                    > trap/test that has merely been
                    > disguised while the "desire"
                    > remains hidden from outer
                    > sight. Thus, it seems to be
                    > okay to "imagine" (and still
                    > desire) higher initiations on
                    > the "INNER" via the ruse of
                    > needing a Mahanta for more
                    > and more of these fake initiations
                    > in order to expand consciousness
                    > for more and more spiritual
                    > progress.
                    >
                    > Eckists are chasing their tails
                    > via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                    > rendition of circular logic and
                    > thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                    > and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                    > in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                    > is training Eckists to become
                    > more and more Codependent
                    > upon the Mahanta and their
                    > desires and attachments?
                    >
                    > Look at the ECK stories... they
                    > all require the intercession and
                    > help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                    > via self-hypnosis and programming,
                    > (attachment) are being taught
                    > to call upon the Mahanta for
                    > anything and everything.. . but
                    > where is Soul and where is the
                    > ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                    > one mouthes certain "charged"
                    > 4th Plane words or thinks he/
                    > she is "detached" doesn't make
                    > it so!
                    >
                    > What's interesting is that these
                    > two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                    > don't require money in order
                    > to maintain (outer and Inner
                    > initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                    > but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                    > needed! This is what structured
                    > (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                    > order to control groups of people.
                    > I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                    > don't want to see the correlation
                    > and connect-the- dots.
                    >
                    > Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                    > the-dots? It probably has to do
                    > with their feelings of being "Superior
                    > Normal" and the delusion that
                    > gives them "all the answers" in
                    > order to alleviate their doubts
                    > and fears. The ego makes a better
                    > servant than it does a master,
                    > but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                    > hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                    > ego from Soul.
                    >
                    > Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                    > (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                    > writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                    > H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                    > What has Klemp been teaching
                    > his followers since he's been
                    > in charge?
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                    >
                    > So true. I really enjoyed your
                    > experiment.
                    >
                    > I used to do that sort of stuff
                    > until it became more sad than
                    > amusing.
                    >
                    > Also, a while back, I forgot
                    > to mention the books of
                    > Alan Watts, starting with
                    > "The Way of Zen" and
                    > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                    >
                    > The second title, of course,
                    > is a paradox, but one that
                    > makes sense without having
                    > to go too far into the book
                    > to see what he is talking about.
                    >
                    > One doesn't have to be necessarily
                    > into Zen or even Buddhism to
                    > understand where he was coming
                    > from.
                    >
                    > His books are very easy to read
                    > and are somewhat humorous.
                    >
                    > Interestingly, he obtained
                    > a master's degree in theology
                    > and "divinity" but went on to
                    > write twenty to thirty books
                    > on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                    > philosophies, and the psychology
                    > of religion, and the importance
                    > of mysticism insofar as the
                    > individual transcending man-
                    > made religion.
                    >
                    > whitemoby wrote:
                    >
                    > Truth can never by systemized,
                    > no matter how eloquently.
                    >
                    > Moby
                    >
                    > Rebazar Tarzs wrote:
                    >
                    > In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                    > after following instructions
                    > to the letter, but not losing
                    > his intuition, begins to question
                    > everything, and comes to
                    > see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                    > favorite or not-so-favorite
                    > community Utopia) as a kind
                    > of ivory tower, oblivious to
                    > real life, and thus, reality.
                    >
                    > He begins to realize that,
                    > after many years, and many
                    > relationships, Castilia is a
                    > self-protected society that
                    > does little, if anything, for
                    > the world outside its borders,
                    > and is burderned by a hierarchy
                    > of personalities and games
                    > people play.
                    >
                    > I won't reveal any more than
                    > this, in case someone is
                    > currently reading "Magister
                    > Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                    > but I will say this - throughout
                    > the whole story, Bruce Willis
                    > is dead.
                    >
                    > What?!?
                    >
                    > No, actually, the truth seeker,
                    > Knecht (which, in German,
                    > means servant and/or knight)
                    > (or so the Germans would have
                    > us believe) is, to the dumb-
                    > foundment of his "superiors",
                    > really looking for truth.
                    >
                    > No substitutes.
                    >
                    > I hope I didn't give away too
                    > much, as the book is almost
                    > 600 pages long, but, actually,
                    > I haven't, because there is
                    > so much truth in the story
                    > that everytime I re-read it,
                    > I realize something new.
                    >
                    > I know we used to say that
                    > about certain ECK books
                    > (before Harold) but the
                    > stuff that Paul took from
                    > others is timeless as well.
                    >
                    > What was kind of amusing
                    > is that when I read the book
                    > the first time, Darwin was
                    > the "Master."
                    >
                    > One of the first main characters
                    > in the story is the "Music Master."
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                    > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                    >
                    > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                    > It is no less than the highest
                    > reason that an entire future
                    > civilization exists. It is the
                    > grand and ongoing synthesis
                    > of all knowledge into a unified,
                    > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                    >
                    > It is an attempt to forge a
                    > holographic intellectual world
                    > where all is interconnected and
                    > reflected in every part. This is
                    > a mission to weave the golden
                    > thread of significance and meaning
                    > through every part of a culture-
                    > science and the arts and the
                    > spiritual are all unified into a
                    > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                    > rings.
                    >
                    > All this is primarily accomplished
                    > by using the language of music
                    > and mathematics as common
                    > universal symbolism (the "glass
                    > beads" are part of a symbolic
                    > physical aid that was once used
                    > for this purpose.)
                    >
                    > It is no wonder that the book
                    > places the first origins of the
                    > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                    > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                    > that the League of Journeyers
                    > to the East also figure prominently
                    > in its development. To some
                    > extent the Game has been the
                    > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                    > individuals and groups down
                    > through the ages.
                    >
                    > All of this stands in stark contrast
                    > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                    > where all knowledge, all culture,
                    > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                    > largely meaningless babble.
                    >
                    > The crisis that develops from
                    > this is that even if you accomplish
                    > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                    > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                    > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                    >
                    > It is necessary to reach out to the
                    > entire society once it is achieved
                    > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                    > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                    > mankind instead of individually
                    > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                    > society must be made whole and
                    > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                    >
                    > This is the realization that comes
                    > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                    > Master of the Game.
                    >
                    > For the game to be ultimately
                    > meaningful we have to coach
                    > everyone to eventually become
                    > Masters."
                    >
                    ************ ********* ********* ****
                    >
                    > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                    > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                    > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                    > the religious strings attached? Not by
                    > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                    > to their membership donations or else
                    > they can lose initiations!
                    >
                    > Prometheus


                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, What do you think about Harry promoting Joan to a 12th Initiate, and EK Master status, this October 22? However, since she wouldn t be a LEM I guess
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 13, 2009
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                      Hello All,
                      What do you think about
                      Harry promoting Joan to
                      a 12th Initiate, and EK Master
                      status, this October 22?
                      However, since she wouldn't
                      be a LEM I guess that
                      her 12th initiation doesn't
                      have to happen on PT's
                      birthday of October 22!

                      Maybe HK'll just announce
                      that she was promoted
                      to that of a 12th EK Master.
                      Will Harry put in a good
                      word for her so that she
                      can get into the Ancient
                      Order (of 'just men') of
                      the Vairagi?

                      I don't think that "Third"
                      Fill-In Postal Clerk would
                      give Joan as good of a
                      recommendation as Harry,
                      but the clerk doesn't sleep
                      with her either!

                      Thus, Kata Daki (K.D.)
                      who is actually Kay-Dee,
                      or Twitchell's sister and
                      Joan (Harold's wife) would
                      be the only two female
                      ECK Masters! That's special.

                      I'd be willing to bet that
                      had Paul lived longer and
                      if Gail had not been so easily
                      enamoured that she'd have
                      been made a 12th and an
                      EK Master.

                      Yes, Rebazar might, now,
                      be an "Ascended" Master
                      for all we know! Who do
                      you think will be the next
                      "Torchbearer" to "fill-in"
                      as the LEM?

                      BTW- Eckankar Does Have
                      "medallions" now. And they
                      are made of FOOLS GOLD
                      since the cost can never
                      be recovered. When one
                      quits the EK cult the jewelry
                      can be sold on Ebay or
                      melted down for less than
                      half the price originally paid!

                      Question: Why does EK Jewelry
                      have to be so expensive when
                      EKists, usually, don't have all
                      that much extra money laying
                      around?

                      Thus, Peter and the Board
                      could enlist this Mexican
                      company "Saints for Sinners"
                      to do painted EK Master
                      Medallions for Eckankar.
                      maybe it could be a MN.
                      Satsang Project. They would
                      just send this company
                      the images of the fake EK
                      Masters... have them do
                      a sample run and see how
                      their likeness turned out
                      on the Medallions.

                      http://www.saintsforsinners.com/medalsgallery.html

                      Anyway, these new painted
                      EK Master Medallions would
                      be much less expensive and,
                      thus, much more affordable
                      than the gold medallions.
                      And, there'd be a better/larger
                      selection with colours too!

                      Plus, there'd be a larger profit
                      margin for Eckankar, on these
                      new medallions, versus the
                      ones they carry now due to
                      the high cost of gold.

                      After all, Why do Eckists think
                      the Catholic Church permits
                      (has approved of) these less
                      expensive medallions versus
                      Gold Medallions? It's because
                      they don't want to impede the
                      funds coming into the Church
                      (from lower income areas) due
                      to expensive religious jewelry.
                      Although, I'm sure that they
                      get a percentage of the sales.

                      Actually, this same view can
                      be applied to Eckankar Seminars
                      and the depletion of Eckists' funds
                      that is created by travel and stay
                      at these EK Events. Religious
                      Pilgrimages to a "Temple" or to
                      see the Pope/Mahanta do not
                      have to done more than once in
                      a lifetime! It's a waste of Building
                      Fund/Missionary Fund and EK
                      Materials monies! If "training"
                      is required the "trainers" can
                      travel to the local areas versus
                      the hundreds of trainees traveling
                      to the trainer. Law of Economy
                      anyone?

                      And, doesn't the EK Law of Economy
                      apply to the "Gold" EK Medallions
                      and to the real purpose of the EK
                      Seminars as well! Can't there be
                      an INNER SEMINAR for H.I.s that
                      would take the place of the OUTER
                      SEMINAR! Aren't Higher Initiates able
                      to experience this via their highly
                      expanded consciousness (and tools)
                      with the assistance of their Mahanta?
                      It's something to contemplate upon!

                      And, the Lower initiates (chelas)
                      could have their own Online EK
                      Seminar (workshops etc. included)
                      and save on the costs of travel and
                      hotel stay! Thus, more Donation
                      Money is made available!

                      Prometheus

                      realbizarretarzs wrote:

                      I am surprised that Harold
                      hasn't already announced
                      the ascension of Rebazar
                      into whatever plane and/
                      or wisdom temple already,
                      because that would get the
                      500 Plus Year OId Man
                      thing out of his hair.

                      That would make Reb just
                      another past master, one
                      that no one can prove did
                      not exist.

                      The EK Master medallion
                      is a great idea.

                      Are they waiting for the
                      price of fool's gold to
                      come down?


                      Prometheus wrote:

                      Hello All,
                      Do you think Klemp will
                      mention that Darwin died
                      at this up coming Seminar?

                      If Rebazar died, as well,
                      maybe that will be the
                      excuse to make Joan an
                      EK Master... to take
                      Rebazar's place! Or,
                      would she finally be
                      taking Darwin's place?

                      BTW - I found a new way
                      that Klemp and Company
                      can make more money.

                      http://www.saintsforsinners.com/medalsgallery.html

                      This site is "Saints for Sinners"
                      where people can buy a medallion
                      with their favorite Saint painted
                      upon it. All Eckankar has to do
                      is substitute the EK Masters for
                      the Saints... like Twitchell did!
                      Anyway, I'm sure that every Eckist
                      would buy a Rebazar Medallion
                      for whatever the cost!

                      Prometheus

                      realbizarretarzs wrote:

                      You're right. Maybe Rebazar
                      died and Harold was afraid
                      to talk about it.

                      After all, he still hasn't mentioned
                      the death of the 972nd Mahanta!


                      prometheus wrote:

                      > Hello All,
                      > In the Catholic Church there
                      > are all types within the "spiritual
                      > hierarchy" that can intercede
                      > with God on the behalf of man.
                      > Twitchell and Klemp merely
                      > copied this as well and added
                      > EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                      http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6146

                      > The thing about doing research
                      > on ECKankar (versus ekankar)
                      > is that Twitchell's version (with
                      > "c" added) along with Rebazar
                      > Tarzs didn't exist more than 50
                      > years ago!
                      >
                      > This No Physical Contact is strange
                      > (not really) since Rebazar has
                      > been around for 500 years, in
                      > the same Physical Body, and
                      > even sailed with Columbus
                      > (according to Klemp)!
                      >
                      > Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                      > mentioning REBAZAR (the
                      > Torchbearer) by name nor
                      > is there anything written by
                      > RT (in his own hand) for 500
                      > years!
                      >
                      > And, since Rebazar does
                      > (supposedly) have a 500
                      > year old physical body why
                      > didn't he show up before and
                      > after Twit died versus Gail
                      > having to use a dream from
                      > Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?
                      >
                      > Why hasn't RT shown up at
                      > an EK Seminar in all of these
                      > years and given a talk? Is he
                      > too good for that?
                      >
                      > If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                      > isn't too good or too "high"
                      > to give a Seminar talk why
                      > can't Rebazar appear and
                      > give one too? He is a physical
                      > being, still! Thus, RT should
                      > be expected to show up every
                      > now and then. But... he hasn't
                      > ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                      > dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                      > it because he pissed HK off by
                      > never showing up at an EK Seminar!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi there!
                      >
                      > The intercession part is the
                      > part I really don't understand!
                      >
                      > Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                      > and the previously published short
                      > articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                      > Free," I was at odds with my
                      > Presbyterian minister while taking
                      > confirmation classes (not my idea,
                      > of course, but my parents' idea of
                      > a good time) over this very point.
                      >
                      > I got the highest grades on everything,
                      > even higher than the minister's son,
                      > but the minister was always trying
                      > to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                      > the margins of my essays, that
                      > intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                      > necessary in order to have any kind
                      > of relationship with Spirit.
                      >
                      > And I agree with you about everything
                      > else you just said. Was Paul paying
                      > Rebazar $160.00 a year?
                      >
                      > How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                      >
                      > And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                      >
                      > It's funny that you mention connecting
                      > the dots.
                      >
                      > That is when I began to discover the
                      > books we weren't supposed to know
                      > about. In the nineties I was trying to
                      > connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                      > of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                      > least 5,000 years B.C.
                      >
                      > And by doing so, I was also researching
                      > "EK" and "HU" throughout history.
                      >
                      > Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                      >
                      > I think it is just a big psychological
                      > circus that takes place, say, for an
                      > example, at a major seminar. People
                      > get all psychologically open to auto-
                      > suggestion.
                      >
                      > If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                      > If not, it is because the chela has not
                      > been doing his or her "homework."
                      >
                      > Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                      >
                      > Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                      >
                      > Harold can dish it out both ways.
                      > And eat the cake himself.
                      >
                      > Again, just like with most religions,
                      > people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                      > fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                      > but fear of the unknown - something
                      > they are supposed to be conquering
                      > BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                      >
                      > They can't because they are clinging
                      > to the known world. Their little world
                      > of "Super Normal" people.
                      >
                      > With alot of these people, most or
                      > all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.
                      >
                      > What would they think? And the
                      > idea of letting others "below" or
                      > "beneath" them passing them up
                      > in "initiations" !
                      >
                      > What could be worse than that?
                      >
                      > Or being "demoted" as a person
                      > in any way?
                      >
                      > They give all their power to the
                      > heirarchy.
                      >
                      > They are powerless to help themselves.
                      > Not really, of course, but it is psychological.
                      >
                      > Whatever happened to power,
                      > wisdom and freedom?
                      >
                      > The answer, my friend, is blowing
                      > in the wind.
                      >
                      > But you knew that!
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      > Thanks for sharing your
                      > comments and the info
                      > about these books!
                      >
                      > As far as "transcending
                      > religion" it seems that this
                      > is what we thought we were
                      > doing when we joined the
                      > "path" of Eckankar way back
                      > when.
                      >
                      > Early on, Eckankar seemed
                      > to have a certain mystique
                      > about it. The reality, now,
                      > is that it was never what we
                      > imagined or desired. This
                      > PT/HK consciousness is based
                      > upon delusions, lies, and
                      > manipulations frozen
                      > in time as meaningless and
                      > imagined experiences and
                      > dreams via Klemp's over-
                      > simplified and mind numbing
                      > hypnotic message. This is
                      > the "real" reason people fall
                      > asleep during his talks! And,
                      > there's No spiritual meat
                      > (protein)!
                      >
                      > The Eckankar message is
                      > merely a redundancy and
                      > regurgitation of empty 2nd
                      > and 4th Plane thoughts and
                      > words.
                      >
                      > PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                      > Westernized rewrite of the
                      > Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                      > once borrowed and plagiarized
                      > (compiled) from Sant Mat
                      > religions (etc.), and from
                      > more knowledgeable/
                      > enlightened people by
                      > the trickster Twitchell.
                      >
                      > HK's EK "path" has not only
                      > become Christianized, but
                      > has also been exposed as
                      > just another "Feel Good"
                      > religious sect that preaches
                      > one thing and does another!
                      > It's a Codependent scam!
                      >
                      > Thus, the Klemps' egos
                      > are feeling pretty good
                      > right now and the "trickle-
                      > down effect" is still sustaining
                      > their EK followers/sheep/
                      > chickens in the same ways
                      > as other religions work their
                      > magic on the numb, dumb,
                      > fearful, and superstitious
                      > masses.
                      >
                      > Still, for Eckists who think
                      > they can see beyond the
                      > veil/void it's amazing to
                      > see that they are quite
                      > incapable of true change
                      > and of discovering the
                      > real path of TRUTH, and
                      > of experiencing the art
                      > of the obvious.
                      >
                      > Truth has escaped these
                      > Eckists and they will forever
                      > remain a pawn of the KAL
                      > and under Klemp's trance
                      > of providing "sales service."
                      >
                      > This, of course, benefits HK's
                      > selfish motives, and, on the
                      > other hand, it helps to give
                      > Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                      > This is why Klemp feels he
                      > is doing no harm since it
                      > provides of service for lost
                      > Souls until they become advanced
                      > enough to realize they don't
                      > need a middleman.
                      >
                      > However, the "catch" lies
                      > within the promises made
                      > and the innate desire of
                      > soul to "Know" God and to
                      > return Home again. Eckankar
                      > manipulates this desire with
                      > "initiations" that are turned
                      > into a KAL "Trap/Test."
                      >
                      > However, Not Desiring Initiations
                      > (via a pure heart) is another
                      > trap/test that has merely been
                      > disguised while the "desire"
                      > remains hidden from outer
                      > sight. Thus, it seems to be
                      > okay to "imagine" (and still
                      > desire) higher initiations on
                      > the "INNER" via the ruse of
                      > needing a Mahanta for more
                      > and more of these fake initiations
                      > in order to expand consciousness
                      > for more and more spiritual
                      > progress.
                      >
                      > Eckists are chasing their tails
                      > via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                      > rendition of circular logic and
                      > thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                      > and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                      > in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                      > is training Eckists to become
                      > more and more Codependent
                      > upon the Mahanta and their
                      > desires and attachments?
                      >
                      > Look at the ECK stories... they
                      > all require the intercession and
                      > help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                      > via self-hypnosis and programming,
                      > (attachment) are being taught
                      > to call upon the Mahanta for
                      > anything and everything.. . but
                      > where is Soul and where is the
                      > ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                      > one mouthes certain "charged"
                      > 4th Plane words or thinks he/
                      > she is "detached" doesn't make
                      > it so!
                      >
                      > What's interesting is that these
                      > two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                      > don't require money in order
                      > to maintain (outer and Inner
                      > initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                      > but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                      > needed! This is what structured
                      > (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                      > order to control groups of people.
                      > I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                      > don't want to see the correlation
                      > and connect-the- dots.
                      >
                      > Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                      > the-dots? It probably has to do
                      > with their feelings of being "Superior
                      > Normal" and the delusion that
                      > gives them "all the answers" in
                      > order to alleviate their doubts
                      > and fears. The ego makes a better
                      > servant than it does a master,
                      > but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                      > hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                      > ego from Soul.
                      >
                      > Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                      > (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                      > writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                      > H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                      > What has Klemp been teaching
                      > his followers since he's been
                      > in charge?
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                      >
                      > So true. I really enjoyed your
                      > experiment.
                      >
                      > I used to do that sort of stuff
                      > until it became more sad than
                      > amusing.
                      >
                      > Also, a while back, I forgot
                      > to mention the books of
                      > Alan Watts, starting with
                      > "The Way of Zen" and
                      > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                      >
                      > The second title, of course,
                      > is a paradox, but one that
                      > makes sense without having
                      > to go too far into the book
                      > to see what he is talking about.
                      >
                      > One doesn't have to be necessarily
                      > into Zen or even Buddhism to
                      > understand where he was coming
                      > from.
                      >
                      > His books are very easy to read
                      > and are somewhat humorous.
                      >
                      > Interestingly, he obtained
                      > a master's degree in theology
                      > and "divinity" but went on to
                      > write twenty to thirty books
                      > on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                      > philosophies, and the psychology
                      > of religion, and the importance
                      > of mysticism insofar as the
                      > individual transcending man-
                      > made religion.
                      >
                      > whitemoby wrote:
                      >
                      > Truth can never by systemized,
                      > no matter how eloquently.
                      >
                      > Moby
                      >
                      > Rebazar Tarzs wrote:
                      >
                      > In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                      > after following instructions
                      > to the letter, but not losing
                      > his intuition, begins to question
                      > everything, and comes to
                      > see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                      > favorite or not-so-favorite
                      > community Utopia) as a kind
                      > of ivory tower, oblivious to
                      > real life, and thus, reality.
                      >
                      > He begins to realize that,
                      > after many years, and many
                      > relationships, Castilia is a
                      > self-protected society that
                      > does little, if anything, for
                      > the world outside its borders,
                      > and is burderned by a hierarchy
                      > of personalities and games
                      > people play.
                      >
                      > I won't reveal any more than
                      > this, in case someone is
                      > currently reading "Magister
                      > Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                      > but I will say this - throughout
                      > the whole story, Bruce Willis
                      > is dead.
                      >
                      > What?!?
                      >
                      > No, actually, the truth seeker,
                      > Knecht (which, in German,
                      > means servant and/or knight)
                      > (or so the Germans would have
                      > us believe) is, to the dumb-
                      > foundment of his "superiors",
                      > really looking for truth.
                      >
                      > No substitutes.
                      >
                      > I hope I didn't give away too
                      > much, as the book is almost
                      > 600 pages long, but, actually,
                      > I haven't, because there is
                      > so much truth in the story
                      > that everytime I re-read it,
                      > I realize something new.
                      >
                      > I know we used to say that
                      > about certain ECK books
                      > (before Harold) but the
                      > stuff that Paul took from
                      > others is timeless as well.
                      >
                      > What was kind of amusing
                      > is that when I read the book
                      > the first time, Darwin was
                      > the "Master."
                      >
                      > One of the first main characters
                      > in the story is the "Music Master."
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                      > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                      >
                      > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                      > It is no less than the highest
                      > reason that an entire future
                      > civilization exists. It is the
                      > grand and ongoing synthesis
                      > of all knowledge into a unified,
                      > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                      >
                      > It is an attempt to forge a
                      > holographic intellectual world
                      > where all is interconnected and
                      > reflected in every part. This is
                      > a mission to weave the golden
                      > thread of significance and meaning
                      > through every part of a culture-
                      > science and the arts and the
                      > spiritual are all unified into a
                      > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                      > rings.
                      >
                      > All this is primarily accomplished
                      > by using the language of music
                      > and mathematics as common
                      > universal symbolism (the "glass
                      > beads" are part of a symbolic
                      > physical aid that was once used
                      > for this purpose.)
                      >
                      > It is no wonder that the book
                      > places the first origins of the
                      > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                      > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                      > that the League of Journeyers
                      > to the East also figure prominently
                      > in its development. To some
                      > extent the Game has been the
                      > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                      > individuals and groups down
                      > through the ages.
                      >
                      > All of this stands in stark contrast
                      > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                      > where all knowledge, all culture,
                      > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                      > largely meaningless babble.
                      >
                      > The crisis that develops from
                      > this is that even if you accomplish
                      > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                      > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                      > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                      >
                      > It is necessary to reach out to the
                      > entire society once it is achieved
                      > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                      > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                      > mankind instead of individually
                      > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                      > society must be made whole and
                      > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                      >
                      > This is the realization that comes
                      > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                      > Master of the Game.
                      >
                      > For the game to be ultimately
                      > meaningful we have to coach
                      > everyone to eventually become
                      > Masters."

                      **********************************

                      > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                      > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                      > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                      > the religious strings attached? Not by
                      > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                      > to their membership donations or else
                      > they can lose initiations!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      That is when I began to discover the books we weren t supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to connect the dots, to trace the history of
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 15, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                        supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
                        connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                        all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                        R.T.

                        Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
                        about Kal Niranjan, etc.

                        Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
                        issued from Sat Purush.

                        "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
                        Niranjan was incarnated."

                        http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                        This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
                        lower worlds were created.

                        I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

                        Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
                        Eckankar?

                        "No written instructions had been put down for the
                        followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
                        sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
                        took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
                        ancient science of Soul Travel."

                        [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
                        (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
                        p. 59]

                        And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
                        Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
                        gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

                        Etznab

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
                        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                        Thinking?

                         






                        Hi there!
                         
                        The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                         
                        Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                        short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                        my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                        idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                        point.
                         
                        I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
                        son,
                        but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                        the margins
                        of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
                        order
                        to have any kind of relationship with Spirit.
                         
                        And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                        Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                         
                        How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                         
                        And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                         
                        It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                         
                        That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                        supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                        connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                        all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                         
                        And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                        throughout history.
                         
                        Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                         
                        I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                        say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                        psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                         
                        If things go well, it is because of Harold. If not, it is because
                        the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                         
                        Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                         
                        Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                         
                        Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                         
                        Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                        out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences", but fear of the
                        unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                        BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                         
                        They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                        Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                         
                        With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                        are in Eckankar.
                         
                        What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                        or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations"!
                         
                        What could be worse than that? 
                         
                        Or being "demoted" as a person in any way?
                         
                        They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                         
                        They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                        but it is psychological.
                         
                        Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                         
                        The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                         
                        But you knew that!
                         
                         
                         
                                 
                         
                               

                        --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        wrote:


                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM


                         

                        Hello All,
                        Thanks for sharing your
                        comments and the info
                        about these books!

                        As far as "transcending
                        religion" it seems that this
                        is what we thought we were
                        doing when we joined the
                        "path" of Eckankar way back
                        when.

                        Early on, Eckankar seemed
                        to have a certain mystique
                        about it. The reality, now,
                        is that it was never what we
                        imagined or desired. This
                        PT/HK consciousness is based
                        upon delusions, lies, and
                        manipulations frozen
                        in time as meaningless and
                        imagined experiences and
                        dreams via Klemp's over-
                        simplified and mind numbing
                        hypnotic message. This is
                        the "real" reason people fall
                        asleep during his talks! And,
                        there's No spiritual meat
                        (protein)!

                        The Eckankar message is
                        merely a redundancy and
                        regurgitation of empty 2nd
                        and 4th Plane thoughts and
                        words.

                        PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                        Westernized rewrite of the

                        Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                        once borrowed and plagiarized
                        (compiled) from Sant Mat
                        religions (etc.), and from
                        more knowledgeable/
                        enlightened people by
                        the trickster Twitchell.

                        HK's EK "path" has not only
                        become Christianized, but
                        has also been exposed as
                        just another "Feel Good"
                        religious sect that preaches
                        one thing and does another!
                        It's a Codependent scam!

                        Thus, the Klemps' egos
                        are feeling pretty good
                        right now and the "trickle-
                        down effect" is still sustaining
                        their EK followers/sheep/
                        chickens in the same ways
                        as other religions work their
                        magic on the numb, dumb,
                        fearful, and superstitious
                        masses.

                        Still, for Eckists who think
                        they can see beyond the
                        veil/void it's amazing to
                        see that they are quite
                        incapable of true change
                        and of discovering the
                        real path of TRUTH, and
                        of experiencing the art
                        of the obvious.


                        Truth has escaped these
                        Eckists and they will forever
                        remain a pawn of the KAL
                        and under Klemp's trance
                        of providing "sales service."

                        This, of course, benefits HK's
                        selfish motives, and, on the
                        other hand, it helps to give
                        Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                        This is why Klemp feels he
                        is doing no harm since it
                        provides of service for lost
                        Souls until they become advanced
                        enough to realize they don't
                        need a middleman.

                        However, the "catch" lies
                        within the promises made
                        and the innate desire of
                        soul to "Know" God and to
                        return Home again. Eckankar
                        manipulates this desire with
                        "initiations" that are turned
                        into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                        However, Not Desiring Initiations
                        (via a pure heart) is another
                        trap/test that has merely been
                        disguised while the "desire"
                        remains hidden from outer
                        sight. Thus, it seems to be
                        okay to "imagine" (and still
                        desire)
                        higher initiations on
                        the "INNER" via the ruse of
                        needing a Mahanta for more
                        and more of these fake initiations
                        in order to expand consciousness
                        for more and more spiritual
                        progress.

                        Eckists are chasing their tails
                        via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                        rendition of circular logic and
                        thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                        and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                        in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                        is training Eckists to become
                        more and more Codependent
                        upon the Mahanta and their
                        desires and attachments?

                        Look at the ECK stories... they
                        all require the intercession and
                        help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                        via self-hypnosis and programming,
                        (attachment) are being taught
                        to call upon the Mahanta for
                        anything and everything.. . but
                        where is Soul and where is the
                        ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                        one mouthes certain "charged"
                        4th Plane words or thinks he/
                        she is "detached" doesn't make

                        it so!

                        What's interesting is that these
                        two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                        don't require money in order
                        to maintain (outer and Inner
                        initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                        but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                        needed! This is what structured
                        (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                        order to control groups of people.
                        I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                        don't want to see the correlation
                        and connect-the- dots.

                        Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                        the-dots? It probably has to do
                        with their feelings of being "Superior
                        Normal" and the delusion that
                        gives them "all the answers" in
                        order to alleviate their doubts
                        and fears. The ego makes a better
                        servant than it does a master,
                        but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                        hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                        ego from Soul.

                        Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                        (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                        writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                        H.I.
                        Letter, one has to wonder...
                        What has Klemp been teaching
                        his followers since he's been
                        in charge?

                        Prometheus

                        realbizarretarzs wrote:

                        So true. I really enjoyed your
                        experiment.

                        I used to do that sort of stuff
                        until it became more sad than
                        amusing.

                        Also, a while back, I forgot
                        to mention the books of
                        Alan Watts, starting with
                        "The Way of Zen" and
                        "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                        The second title, of course,
                        is a paradox, but one that
                        makes sense without having
                        to go too far into the book
                        to see what he is talking about.

                        One doesn't have to be necessarily
                        into Zen or even Buddhism to
                        understand where he was coming
                        from.

                        His books are very easy to read
                        and are somewhat humorous.

                        Interestingly, he obtained
                        a master's degree in theology
                        and "divinity" but went on to
                        write twenty to thirty books
                        on Zen and Indian and
                        Chinese
                        philosophies, and the psychology
                        of religion, and the importance
                        of mysticism insofar as the
                        individual transcending man-
                        made religion.

                        whitemoby wrote:

                        Truth can never by systemized,
                        no matter how eloquently.

                        Moby

                        Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                        In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                        after following instructions
                        to the letter, but not losing
                        his intuition, begins to question
                        everything, and comes to
                        see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                        favorite or not-so-favorite
                        community Utopia) as a kind
                        of ivory tower, oblivious to
                        real life, and thus, reality.

                        He begins to realize that,
                        after many years, and many
                        relationships, Castilia is a
                        self-protected society that
                        does little, if anything, for
                        the world outside its borders,
                        and is burderned by a hierarchy
                        of personalities and games
                        people play.

                        I won't reveal any more than
                        this, in
                        case someone is
                        currently reading "Magister
                        Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                        but I will say this - throughout
                        the whole story, Bruce Willis
                        is dead.

                        What?!?

                        No, actually, the truth seeker,
                        Knecht (which, in German,
                        means servant and/or knight)
                        (or so the Germans would have
                        us believe) is, to the dumb-
                        foundment of his "superiors",
                        really looking for truth.

                        No substitutes.

                        I hope I didn't give away too
                        much, as the book is almost
                        600 pages long, but, actually,
                        I haven't, because there is
                        so much truth in the story
                        that everytime I re-read it,
                        I realize something new.

                        I know we used to say that
                        about certain ECK books
                        (before Harold) but the
                        stuff that Paul took from
                        others is timeless as well.

                        What was kind of amusing
                        is that when I read the book
                        the first time, Darwin was
                        the "Master."

                        One of the first main characters

                        in the story is the "Music Master."


                        prometheus wrote:

                        Here's a review from Amazon.com
                        of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                        "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                        It is no less than the highest
                        reason that an entire future
                        civilization exists. It is the
                        grand and ongoing synthesis
                        of all knowledge into a unified,
                        integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                        It is an attempt to forge a
                        holographic intellectual world
                        where all is interconnected and
                        reflected in every part. This is
                        a mission to weave the golden
                        thread of significance and meaning
                        through every part of a culture-
                        science and the arts and the
                        spiritual are all unified into a
                        system of concentric, interpenetrating
                        rings.

                        All this is primarily accomplished
                        by using the language of music
                        and mathematics as common
                        universal symbolism (the "glass
                        beads" are part of a symbolic
                        physical
                        aid that was once used
                        for this purpose.)

                        It is no wonder that the book
                        places the first origins of the
                        game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                        and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                        that the League of Journeyers
                        to the East also figure prominently
                        in its development. To some
                        extent the Game has been the
                        goal of all sensitive and introspective
                        individuals and groups down
                        through the ages.

                        All of this stands in stark contrast
                        to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                        where all knowledge, all culture,
                        is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                        largely meaningless babble.

                        The crisis that develops from
                        this is that even if you accomplish
                        this grand synthesis in some isolated
                        ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                        contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                        It is necessary to reach out to the
                        entire society once it is achieved
                        in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                        attempts to enlighten the rest
                        of
                        mankind instead of individually
                        passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                        society must be made whole and
                        sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                        This is the realization that comes
                        even to the Magister Ludi, the
                        Master of the Game.

                        For the game to be ultimately
                        meaningful we have to coach
                        everyone to eventually become
                        Masters."

                        ************ ********* ********* ****

                        Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                        Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                        outflow principle) be accomplished without
                        the religious strings attached? Not by
                        Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                        to their membership donations or else
                        they can lose initiations!

                        Prometheus
                      • Rebazar Tarzs
                        From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.   I don t know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 16, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one
                          (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.
                           
                          I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did
                          (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,
                          these two seemed to be on the same page,
                          so to speak.
                           
                          Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?
                           
                          It is all poetry.
                           
                          Thanks for the link.
                           
                          Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where
                          Kabir got this information.
                           
                          Do you know?  

                          --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                          From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM

                           
                          That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                          supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
                          connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                          all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                          R.T.

                          Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
                          about Kal Niranjan, etc.

                          Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
                          issued from Sat Purush.

                          "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
                          Niranjan was incarnated."

                          http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book& book=4817& page=23

                          This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
                          lower worlds were created.

                          I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

                          Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
                          Eckankar?

                          "No written instructions had been put down for the
                          followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
                          sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
                          took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
                          ancient science of Soul Travel."

                          [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
                          (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
                          p. 59]

                          And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
                          Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
                          gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

                          Etznab

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                          Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                          Thinking?

                           

                          Hi there!
                           
                          The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                           
                          Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                          short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                          my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                          idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                          point.
                           
                          I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
                          son,
                          but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                          the margins
                          of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
                          order
                          to have any kind of relationship with Spirit.
                           
                          And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                          Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                           
                          How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                           
                          And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                           
                          It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                           
                          That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                          supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                          connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                          all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                           
                          And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                          throughout history.
                           
                          Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                           
                          I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                          say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                          psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                           
                          If things go well, it is because of Harold. If not, it is because
                          the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                           
                          Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                           
                          Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                           
                          Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                           
                          Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                          out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the
                          unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                          BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                           
                          They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                          Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                           
                          With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                          are in Eckankar.
                           
                          What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                          or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !
                           
                          What could be worse than that? 
                           
                          Or being "demoted" as a person in any way?
                           
                          They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                           
                          They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                          but it is psychological.
                           
                          Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                           
                          The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                           
                          But you knew that!
                           
                           
                           
                                   
                           
                                 

                          --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@ yahoo.com&gt;
                          wrote:

                          From: prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@ yahoo.com&gt;
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                          Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

                           

                          Hello All,
                          Thanks for sharing your
                          comments and the info
                          about these books!

                          As far as "transcending
                          religion" it seems that this
                          is what we thought we were
                          doing when we joined the
                          "path" of Eckankar way back
                          when.

                          Early on, Eckankar seemed
                          to have a certain mystique
                          about it. The reality, now,
                          is that it was never what we
                          imagined or desired. This
                          PT/HK consciousness is based
                          upon delusions, lies, and
                          manipulations frozen
                          in time as meaningless and
                          imagined experiences and
                          dreams via Klemp's over-
                          simplified and mind numbing
                          hypnotic message. This is
                          the "real" reason people fall
                          asleep during his talks! And,
                          there's No spiritual meat
                          (protein)!

                          The Eckankar message is
                          merely a redundancy and
                          regurgitation of empty 2nd
                          and 4th Plane thoughts and
                          words.

                          PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                          Westernized rewrite of the

                          Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                          once borrowed and plagiarized
                          (compiled) from Sant Mat
                          religions (etc.), and from
                          more knowledgeable/
                          enlightened people by
                          the trickster Twitchell.

                          HK's EK "path" has not only
                          become Christianized, but
                          has also been exposed as
                          just another "Feel Good"
                          religious sect that preaches
                          one thing and does another!
                          It's a Codependent scam!

                          Thus, the Klemps' egos
                          are feeling pretty good
                          right now and the "trickle-
                          down effect" is still sustaining
                          their EK followers/sheep/
                          chickens in the same ways
                          as other religions work their
                          magic on the numb, dumb,
                          fearful, and superstitious
                          masses.

                          Still, for Eckists who think
                          they can see beyond the
                          veil/void it's amazing to
                          see that they are quite
                          incapable of true change
                          and of discovering the
                          real path of TRUTH, and
                          of experiencing the art
                          of the obvious.

                          Truth has escaped these
                          Eckists and they will forever
                          remain a pawn of the KAL
                          and under Klemp's trance
                          of providing "sales service."

                          This, of course, benefits HK's
                          selfish motives, and, on the
                          other hand, it helps to give
                          Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                          This is why Klemp feels he
                          is doing no harm since it
                          provides of service for lost
                          Souls until they become advanced
                          enough to realize they don't
                          need a middleman.

                          However, the "catch" lies
                          within the promises made
                          and the innate desire of
                          soul to "Know" God and to
                          return Home again. Eckankar
                          manipulates this desire with
                          "initiations" that are turned
                          into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                          However, Not Desiring Initiations
                          (via a pure heart) is another
                          trap/test that has merely been
                          disguised while the "desire"
                          remains hidden from outer
                          sight. Thus, it seems to be
                          okay to "imagine" (and still
                          desire)
                          higher initiations on
                          the "INNER" via the ruse of
                          needing a Mahanta for more
                          and more of these fake initiations
                          in order to expand consciousness
                          for more and more spiritual
                          progress.

                          Eckists are chasing their tails
                          via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                          rendition of circular logic and
                          thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                          and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                          in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                          is training Eckists to become
                          more and more Codependent
                          upon the Mahanta and their
                          desires and attachments?

                          Look at the ECK stories... they
                          all require the intercession and
                          help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                          via self-hypnosis and programming,
                          (attachment) are being taught
                          to call upon the Mahanta for
                          anything and everything.. . but
                          where is Soul and where is the
                          ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                          one mouthes certain "charged"
                          4th Plane words or thinks he/
                          she is "detached" doesn't make

                          it so!

                          What's interesting is that these
                          two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                          don't require money in order
                          to maintain (outer and Inner
                          initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                          but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                          needed! This is what structured
                          (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                          order to control groups of people.
                          I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                          don't want to see the correlation
                          and connect-the- dots.

                          Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                          the-dots? It probably has to do
                          with their feelings of being "Superior
                          Normal" and the delusion that
                          gives them "all the answers" in
                          order to alleviate their doubts
                          and fears. The ego makes a better
                          servant than it does a master,
                          but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                          hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                          ego from Soul.

                          Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                          (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                          writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                          H.I.
                          Letter, one has to wonder...
                          What has Klemp been teaching
                          his followers since he's been
                          in charge?

                          Prometheus

                          realbizarretarzs wrote:

                          So true. I really enjoyed your
                          experiment.

                          I used to do that sort of stuff
                          until it became more sad than
                          amusing.

                          Also, a while back, I forgot
                          to mention the books of
                          Alan Watts, starting with
                          "The Way of Zen" and
                          "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                          The second title, of course,
                          is a paradox, but one that
                          makes sense without having
                          to go too far into the book
                          to see what he is talking about.

                          One doesn't have to be necessarily
                          into Zen or even Buddhism to
                          understand where he was coming
                          from.

                          His books are very easy to read
                          and are somewhat humorous.

                          Interestingly, he obtained
                          a master's degree in theology
                          and "divinity" but went on to
                          write twenty to thirty books
                          on Zen and Indian and
                          Chinese
                          philosophies, and the psychology
                          of religion, and the importance
                          of mysticism insofar as the
                          individual transcending man-
                          made religion.

                          whitemoby wrote:

                          Truth can never by systemized,
                          no matter how eloquently.

                          Moby

                          Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                          In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                          after following instructions
                          to the letter, but not losing
                          his intuition, begins to question
                          everything, and comes to
                          see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                          favorite or not-so-favorite
                          community Utopia) as a kind
                          of ivory tower, oblivious to
                          real life, and thus, reality.

                          He begins to realize that,
                          after many years, and many
                          relationships, Castilia is a
                          self-protected society that
                          does little, if anything, for
                          the world outside its borders,
                          and is burderned by a hierarchy
                          of personalities and games
                          people play.

                          I won't reveal any more than
                          this, in
                          case someone is
                          currently reading "Magister
                          Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                          but I will say this - throughout
                          the whole story, Bruce Willis
                          is dead.

                          What?!?

                          No, actually, the truth seeker,
                          Knecht (which, in German,
                          means servant and/or knight)
                          (or so the Germans would have
                          us believe) is, to the dumb-
                          foundment of his "superiors",
                          really looking for truth.

                          No substitutes.

                          I hope I didn't give away too
                          much, as the book is almost
                          600 pages long, but, actually,
                          I haven't, because there is
                          so much truth in the story
                          that everytime I re-read it,
                          I realize something new.

                          I know we used to say that
                          about certain ECK books
                          (before Harold) but the
                          stuff that Paul took from
                          others is timeless as well.

                          What was kind of amusing
                          is that when I read the book
                          the first time, Darwin was
                          the "Master."

                          One of the first main characters

                          in the story is the "Music Master."

                          prometheus wrote:

                          Here's a review from Amazon.com
                          of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                          "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                          It is no less than the highest
                          reason that an entire future
                          civilization exists. It is the
                          grand and ongoing synthesis
                          of all knowledge into a unified,
                          integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                          It is an attempt to forge a
                          holographic intellectual world
                          where all is interconnected and
                          reflected in every part. This is
                          a mission to weave the golden
                          thread of significance and meaning
                          through every part of a culture-
                          science and the arts and the
                          spiritual are all unified into a
                          system of concentric, interpenetrating
                          rings.

                          All this is primarily accomplished
                          by using the language of music
                          and mathematics as common
                          universal symbolism (the "glass
                          beads" are part of a symbolic
                          physical
                          aid that was once used
                          for this purpose.)

                          It is no wonder that the book
                          places the first origins of the
                          game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                          and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                          that the League of Journeyers
                          to the East also figure prominently
                          in its development. To some
                          extent the Game has been the
                          goal of all sensitive and introspective
                          individuals and groups down
                          through the ages.

                          All of this stands in stark contrast
                          to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                          where all knowledge, all culture,
                          is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                          largely meaningless babble.

                          The crisis that develops from
                          this is that even if you accomplish
                          this grand synthesis in some isolated
                          ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                          contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                          It is necessary to reach out to the
                          entire society once it is achieved
                          in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                          attempts to enlighten the rest
                          of
                          mankind instead of individually
                          passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                          society must be made whole and
                          sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                          This is the realization that comes
                          even to the Magister Ludi, the
                          Master of the Game.

                          For the game to be ultimately
                          meaningful we have to coach
                          everyone to eventually become
                          Masters."

                          ************ ********* ********* ****

                          Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                          Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                          outflow principle) be accomplished without
                          the religious strings attached? Not by
                          Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                          to their membership donations or else
                          they can lose initiations!

                          Prometheus


                        • etznab@aol.com
                          I don t have the book by Kabir that you mentioned. And I don t know that he ever mentioned ek onkar. Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked similar to
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.
                            And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

                            Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked
                            similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I
                            believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I
                            saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed
                            over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks
                            similar in some ways, but different.

                            http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html

                            Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and
                            Kapila.

                            In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh
                            are mentioned here.

                            http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html

                            It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak
                            Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

                            The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the
                            teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number
                            of similarities. IMO.

                            The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are
                            curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya
                            philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show
                            the order and sequence of creation.)

                            The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

                            It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for
                            Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by
                            Kabir.

                            The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

                            The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.

                            http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                            The apparent tendency in both systems seems
                            to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

                            From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

                            "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:
                            When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was
                            incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the
                            body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"

                            http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                            I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described
                            as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's
                            story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,
                            where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

                            IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are
                            the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths
                            literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas
                            that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal
                            organized religious interpretations which may be far,
                            far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-
                            come disconnected from the true origins of their path
                            appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"
                            leading the "blind".

                            As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

                            See what I mean? :)

                            For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)
                            is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To
                            look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

                            Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and
                            clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have
                            visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't
                            have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths
                            except when they are taken literally and people don't see
                            the difference between fiction and fact.

                            Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can
                            the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell
                            from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

                            I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from
                            the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and
                            keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same
                            teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the
                            lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

                            Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-
                            ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

                            However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these
                            stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.
                            Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of
                            them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those
                            sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be
                            they members of a particular religion or not - often have
                            to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms
                            of "torture" for speaking their minds.

                            Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-
                            pool and everything goes down the drain? :)

                            Etznab






                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                            Thinking?

                             






                            From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one
                            (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.
                             
                            I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did
                            (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,
                            these two seemed to be on the same page,
                            so to speak.
                             
                            Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?
                             
                            It is all poetry.
                             
                            Thanks for the link.
                             
                            Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where
                            Kabir got this information.
                             
                            Do you know?  

                            --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:


                            From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                            Thinking?
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM


                             

                            That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                            supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
                            connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                            all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                            R.T.

                            Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
                            about Kal Niranjan, etc.

                            Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
                            issued from Sat Purush.

                            "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
                            Niranjan was incarnated."

                            http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&
                            book=4817& page=23

                            This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
                            lower worlds were created.

                            I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

                            Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
                            Eckankar?

                            "No written instructions had been put
                            down for the
                            followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
                            sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
                            took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
                            ancient science of Soul Travel."

                            [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
                            (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
                            p. 59]

                            And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
                            Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
                            gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

                            Etznab

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                            Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                            Thinking?

                             

                            Hi there!
                             
                            The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                             
                            Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                            short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                            my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                            idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                            point.
                             
                            I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
                            son,
                            but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                            the margins
                            of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
                            order
                            to have any kind
                            of relationship with Spirit.
                             
                            And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                            Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                             
                            How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                             
                            And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                             
                            It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                             
                            That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                            supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                            connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                            all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                             
                            And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                            throughout history.
                             
                            Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                             
                            I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                            say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                            psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                             
                            If things go well, it is because of Harold. If
                            not, it is because
                            the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                             
                            Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                             
                            Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                             
                            Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                             
                            Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                            out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the
                            unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                            BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                             
                            They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                            Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                             
                            With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                            are in Eckankar.
                             
                            What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                            or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !
                             
                            What could be worse than that? 
                             
                            Or being "demoted" as a person in any
                            way?
                             
                            They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                             
                            They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                            but it is psychological.
                             
                            Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                             
                            The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                             
                            But you knew that!
                             
                             
                             
                                     
                             
                                   

                            --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                            wrote:

                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                            Subject:
                            [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                            Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

                             

                            Hello All,
                            Thanks for sharing your
                            comments and the info
                            about these books!

                            As far as "transcending
                            religion" it seems that this
                            is what we thought we were
                            doing when we joined the
                            "path" of Eckankar way back
                            when.

                            Early on, Eckankar seemed
                            to have a certain mystique
                            about it. The reality, now,
                            is that it was never what we
                            imagined or desired. This
                            PT/HK consciousness is based
                            upon delusions, lies, and
                            manipulations frozen
                            in time as meaningless and
                            imagined experiences and
                            dreams via Klemp's over-
                            simplified and mind
                            numbing
                            hypnotic message. This is
                            the "real" reason people fall
                            asleep during his talks! And,
                            there's No spiritual meat
                            (protein)!

                            The Eckankar message is
                            merely a redundancy and
                            regurgitation of empty 2nd
                            and 4th Plane thoughts and
                            words.

                            PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                            Westernized rewrite of the

                            Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                            once borrowed and plagiarized
                            (compiled) from Sant Mat
                            religions (etc.), and from
                            more knowledgeable/
                            enlightened people by
                            the trickster Twitchell.

                            HK's EK "path" has not only
                            become Christianized, but
                            has also been exposed as
                            just another "Feel Good"
                            religious sect that preaches
                            one thing and does another!
                            It's a Codependent scam!

                            Thus, the Klemps' egos
                            are feeling pretty good
                            right now and the "trickle-
                            down effect" is still sustaining
                            their EK followers/sheep/
                            chickens in the same ways
                            as other religions work
                            their
                            magic on the numb, dumb,
                            fearful, and superstitious
                            masses.

                            Still, for Eckists who think
                            they can see beyond the
                            veil/void it's amazing to
                            see that they are quite
                            incapable of true change
                            and of discovering the
                            real path of TRUTH, and
                            of experiencing the art
                            of the obvious.

                            Truth has escaped these
                            Eckists and they will forever
                            remain a pawn of the KAL
                            and under Klemp's trance
                            of providing "sales service."

                            This, of course, benefits HK's
                            selfish motives, and, on the
                            other hand, it helps to give
                            Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                            This is why Klemp feels he
                            is doing no harm since it
                            provides of service for lost
                            Souls until they become advanced
                            enough to realize they don't
                            need a middleman.

                            However, the "catch" lies
                            within the promises made
                            and the innate desire of
                            soul to "Know" God and to
                            return Home again. Eckankar
                            manipulates this desire
                            with
                            "initiations" that are turned
                            into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                            However, Not Desiring Initiations
                            (via a pure heart) is another
                            trap/test that has merely been
                            disguised while the "desire"
                            remains hidden from outer
                            sight. Thus, it seems to be
                            okay to "imagine" (and still
                            desire)
                            higher initiations on
                            the "INNER" via the ruse of
                            needing a Mahanta for more
                            and more of these fake initiations
                            in order to expand consciousness
                            for more and more spiritual
                            progress.

                            Eckists are chasing their tails
                            via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                            rendition of circular logic and
                            thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                            and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                            in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                            is training Eckists to become
                            more and more Codependent
                            upon the Mahanta and their
                            desires and attachments?

                            Look at the ECK stories... they
                            all require the intercession and
                            help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                            via
                            self-hypnosis and programming,
                            (attachment) are being taught
                            to call upon the Mahanta for
                            anything and everything.. . but
                            where is Soul and where is the
                            ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                            one mouthes certain "charged"
                            4th Plane words or thinks he/
                            she is "detached" doesn't make

                            it so!

                            What's interesting is that these
                            two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                            don't require money in order
                            to maintain (outer and Inner
                            initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                            but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                            needed! This is what structured
                            (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                            order to control groups of people.
                            I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                            don't want to see the correlation
                            and connect-the- dots.

                            Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                            the-dots? It probably has to do
                            with their feelings of being "Superior
                            Normal" and the delusion that
                            gives them "all the answers" in
                            order to alleviate their
                            doubts
                            and fears. The ego makes a better
                            servant than it does a master,
                            but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                            hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                            ego from Soul.

                            Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                            (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                            writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                            H.I.
                            Letter, one has to wonder...
                            What has Klemp been teaching
                            his followers since he's been
                            in charge?

                            Prometheus

                            realbizarretarzs wrote:

                            So true. I really enjoyed your
                            experiment.

                            I used to do that sort of stuff
                            until it became more sad than
                            amusing.

                            Also, a while back, I forgot
                            to mention the books of
                            Alan Watts, starting with
                            "The Way of Zen" and
                            "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                            The second title, of course,
                            is a paradox, but one that
                            makes sense without having
                            to go too far into the book
                            to see what he is talking about.

                            One doesn't have to be necessarily
                            into Zen or even
                            Buddhism to
                            understand where he was coming
                            from.

                            His books are very easy to read
                            and are somewhat humorous.

                            Interestingly, he obtained
                            a master's degree in theology
                            and "divinity" but went on to
                            write twenty to thirty books
                            on Zen and Indian and
                            Chinese
                            philosophies, and the psychology
                            of religion, and the importance
                            of mysticism insofar as the
                            individual transcending man-
                            made religion.

                            whitemoby wrote:

                            Truth can never by systemized,
                            no matter how eloquently.

                            Moby

                            Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                            In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                            after following instructions
                            to the letter, but not losing
                            his intuition, begins to question
                            everything, and comes to
                            see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                            favorite or not-so-favorite
                            community Utopia) as a kind
                            of ivory tower, oblivious to
                            real life, and thus, reality.

                            He begins to realize that,
                            after many years, and
                            many
                            relationships, Castilia is a
                            self-protected society that
                            does little, if anything, for
                            the world outside its borders,
                            and is burderned by a hierarchy
                            of personalities and games
                            people play.

                            I won't reveal any more than
                            this, in
                            case someone is
                            currently reading "Magister
                            Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                            but I will say this - throughout
                            the whole story, Bruce Willis
                            is dead.

                            What?!?

                            No, actually, the truth seeker,
                            Knecht (which, in German,
                            means servant and/or knight)
                            (or so the Germans would have
                            us believe) is, to the dumb-
                            foundment of his "superiors",
                            really looking for truth.

                            No substitutes.

                            I hope I didn't give away too
                            much, as the book is almost
                            600 pages long, but, actually,
                            I haven't, because there is
                            so much truth in the story
                            that everytime I re-read it,
                            I realize something new.

                            I know we used to say that
                            about certain
                            ECK books
                            (before Harold) but the
                            stuff that Paul took from
                            others is timeless as well.

                            What was kind of amusing
                            is that when I read the book
                            the first time, Darwin was
                            the "Master."

                            One of the first main characters

                            in the story is the "Music Master."

                            prometheus wrote:

                            Here's a review from Amazon.com
                            of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                            "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                            It is no less than the highest
                            reason that an entire future
                            civilization exists. It is the
                            grand and ongoing synthesis
                            of all knowledge into a unified,
                            integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                            It is an attempt to forge a
                            holographic intellectual world
                            where all is interconnected and
                            reflected in every part. This is
                            a mission to weave the golden
                            thread of significance and meaning
                            through every part of a culture-
                            science and the arts and the
                            spiritual are all unified into a
                            system of
                            concentric, interpenetrating
                            rings.

                            All this is primarily accomplished
                            by using the language of music
                            and mathematics as common
                            universal symbolism (the "glass
                            beads" are part of a symbolic
                            physical
                            aid that was once used
                            for this purpose.)

                            It is no wonder that the book
                            places the first origins of the
                            game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                            and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                            that the League of Journeyers
                            to the East also figure prominently
                            in its development. To some
                            extent the Game has been the
                            goal of all sensitive and introspective
                            individuals and groups down
                            through the ages.

                            All of this stands in stark contrast
                            to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                            where all knowledge, all culture,
                            is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                            largely meaningless babble.

                            The crisis that develops from
                            this is that even if you accomplish
                            this grand synthesis in some isolated
                            ivory tower refuge of
                            intellectual
                            contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                            It is necessary to reach out to the
                            entire society once it is achieved
                            in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                            attempts to enlighten the rest
                            of
                            mankind instead of individually
                            passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                            society must be made whole and
                            sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                            This is the realization that comes
                            even to the Magister Ludi, the
                            Master of the Game.

                            For the game to be ultimately
                            meaningful we have to coach
                            everyone to eventually become
                            Masters."

                            ************ ********* ********* ****

                            Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                            Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                            outflow principle) be accomplished without
                            the religious strings attached? Not by
                            Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                            to their membership donations or else
                            they can lose
                            initiations!

                            Prometheus
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Some time ago I took notice of the words purukh (Purush) and Prakrti (Prakrta). How they contained similar sounds. At the heart of explanations for
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Some time ago I took notice of the words
                              "purukh" (Purush) and "Prakrti" (Prakrta).
                              How they contained similar sounds.

                              At the heart of explanations for creation
                              and how "material" & "spiritual" coexist
                              I found those two words. In Indian texts
                              mostly.

                              Both words begin by illustrating the con-
                              sonants P + R. Prakrti, however, appears
                              to have the Sanskrit root "kr", which IMO
                              is connected with the ideas of action and
                              karma. The "ti" part could be a "feminine"
                              ending (I'm guessing).

                              Both of those words are at the heart of
                              creation according to certain teachings.
                              They also contain the "letters" P + R +
                              K (when you spell purush as purukh).

                              Here are some etymologies that may,
                              or may not help.

                              prak - "Definitions: previously, before, first[ly]
                              (Sanskrit).

                              puru - "Definitions: 'much, many'." (Vedic)

                              http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/vedol-4-X.html

                              In the Vedas there is a Dawn Maiden
                              by the name of Ushas, I believe.

                              Ushas - "The lovely Hindu dawn maiden who
                              sprung from the head of Dyaus. The twin sister
                              of Nakt, or Ratri [the goddess of night] (Hindu
                              Mythology). Associated spellings/words: usas
                              ['shining; east'] (Sanskrit); uchanti ['shining']
                              (Vedic); eos; aurora."

                              Notice the word uchanti has a "c".

                              The "c" in Purukh changing to "s" is not very
                              uncommon. I've seen a number of cases where
                              the "c" and "k" sounds evolve to "s".

                              Viva La France! (Home of the Franks :)

                              In some places the definition for "guru" means
                              "dispeller of darkness". Now I wonder if that is
                              connected to the idea of "light bearer"?

                              Light and darkness are common symbols for
                              good and evil. However, what does Purukh &
                              Prakrta really symbolize? [BTW, the latter is
                              connected with the gender that was once de-
                              monized in the Bible. The feminine. Consider
                              also how in many traditions the "Sat Guru" is
                              (the vehicle of which, at least) is associated
                              with the opposite, or "masculine" gender.]

                              Is this really a very unique teaching? The idea
                              that "God" is male & "Nature" is female? It is
                              really quite common actually.

                              In the Anurag Sagar it seemed that Kal Niranjan
                              wanted to create a world or something. And here
                              is what it said on the Sant Mat site:

                              Fifth Shabda – Kal-Niranjan : Full name of the
                              Negative Power, often shortened to Kal (q.v.).
                              Niranjan means "beyond illusion," and is applied
                              to Kal ("Time") because he is the creator of illusion.

                              http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=24

                              Kal, the creator of illusion, is Niranjan? Beyond
                              illusion?

                              Isn't that special :)

                              Another name for Kal Niranjan on the site seems
                              to be Dharam Rai. This being seems to be quite
                              devotional to Sat Purush. One day, however, the
                              being appears to say (these are in italics):

                              "Oh, Sahaj, my brother – go and make this request
                              to Sat Purush: I don't like this small place. Please
                              give me a big kingdom. In my heart I have felt such
                              love for Him! He should bless me with a big place.
                              He should either give me the world of the gods, or
                              else a separate world."

                              http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25

                              Sat Purush replies (also italics):

                              After hearing the words of Sahaj, Sat Purush said this:

                              "I am pleased with Dharam Rai; take this to your heart:
                              I have given him the three Worlds, now go and tell him
                              to develop the Void plane. Oh Sahaj, tell him to make
                              his creation there."

                              And at the bottom of the page it has a description for
                              what is the void plane.

                              "The Void Plane: The three worlds in their pre-existent
                              state."

                              http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25

                              ***************************************************************

                              Now I am wondering how old are these teachings, the
                              story, whatever, in the Anurag Sagar? And how do I
                              know they are the original, for one? And how do I know
                              it is not the case of one person borrowing from another
                              and making up their own version of things?

                              Sant Mat and Eckankar both hearken back to Kabir
                              when recounting the history of their teachings. And
                              if Sant Mat was know earlier than the word - and the
                              modern day - "Eckankar", Where did Sant Mat come
                              from? Where did Kabir get his teachings? For that
                              matter.

                              This is a Wikipedia quote:

                              The Sant Mat movement was not homogeneous, and
                              consisted mostly of the Sants' own socio-religious
                              attitudes which were based on bhakti (devotion) as
                              described a thousand years earlier in the Bhagavad
                              Gita.[3] Sharing as few conventions with each other as
                              with the followers of the traditions they challenged, the
                              Sants appear more as a diverse collection of spiritual
                              personalities than a specific religious tradition, although
                              they acknowledged a common spiritual root.[4]

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sant_Mat

                              Whether true or not, that gave me the impression of
                              so many people scattered around the area each with
                              their own particular form of tradition.

                              Here is a page with summary for the philosophy of
                              Kabir.

                              "The basic religious principles he espoused are simple.
                              According to Kabir, all life is an interplay of two spiritual
                              principles. One is the personal soul (Jivatma) and the
                              other is God (Paramatma). It is Kabir's view that salvation
                              is the process of bringing into union these two divine
                              principles."

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir

                              The bringing into union? Nanak appears to suggest the
                              contact with Nam. And Radha Soami has the sound
                              current before spiritual liberation. And before the sound
                              current, has contact with a living master. Eckankar also
                              appears to echo the Sat Guru, Shabda & Jivan Mukti
                              paradigm (notice the word "jiva" in Jivan Mukti).

                              I'm trying to spell out the "apparent" duality being here
                              described in symbolic terms. For example, there are
                              the terms "Atma" and "Jivatma". One appears to mean
                              the "spiritual" principle of soul and the other the "living"
                              principle (that tied to matter). Mystic Judaism and even
                              Islam have different kinds of "souls", too. The "animal"
                              soul, etc.

                              What is the "common root" in all of this? Whatever it is
                              there appear to be dozens of ways (and religions) trying
                              to explain it. Now it so happens there are a number of
                              different paths (Eckankar included?) which make seem
                              as though the prerequisite for spiritual liberation means
                              joining their particular group? Accepting their particular
                              "Living Master" (prerequisite meaning what you need to
                              do first)? Did I spell that right?

                              Something is wrong with this picture if several different
                              paths and religions have it that their version is the true
                              version and all the others are somehow less. Offshoots,
                              etc.

                              This post is just a long-winded way of saying I doubt it
                              that all appear to have a common root. Because if they
                              did then somebody would have discovered it by now &
                              painted a picture of the "plant" that has since evolved.
                              Instead I see a whole orchard of "fruit trees" and even
                              nobody is actually certain it was an "apple tree" in the
                              Garden of Eden.

                              If we had the "root" then wouldn't we have the truth?

                              Etznab















                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: etznab@...
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 4:04 pm
                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                              Thinking?

                               








                              I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.

                              And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.



                              Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked

                              similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I

                              believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I

                              saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed

                              over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks

                              similar in some ways, but different.



                              http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html



                              Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and

                              Kapila.



                              In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh

                              are mentioned here.



                              http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html



                              It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak

                              Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)



                              The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the

                              teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number

                              of similarities. IMO.



                              The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are

                              curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya

                              philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show

                              the order and sequence of creation.)



                              The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).



                              It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for

                              Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by

                              Kabir.



                              The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.



                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya



                              The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.



                              http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23



                              The apparent tendency in both systems seems

                              to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".



                              From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:



                              "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:

                              When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was

                              incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the

                              body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"



                              http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23



                              I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described

                              as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's

                              story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,

                              where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".



                              IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are

                              the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths

                              literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas

                              that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal

                              organized religious interpretations which may be far,

                              far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-

                              come disconnected from the true origins of their path

                              appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"

                              leading the "blind".



                              As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!



                              See what I mean? :)



                              For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)

                              is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To

                              look at where they came from & how the history evolved.



                              Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and

                              clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have

                              visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't

                              have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths

                              except when they are taken literally and people don't see

                              the difference between fiction and fact.



                              Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can

                              the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell

                              from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?



                              I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from

                              the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and

                              keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same

                              teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the

                              lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?



                              Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-

                              ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?



                              However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these

                              stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.

                              Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of

                              them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those

                              sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be

                              they members of a particular religion or not - often have

                              to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms

                              of "torture" for speaking their minds.



                              Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-

                              pool and everything goes down the drain? :)



                              Etznab



                              -----Original Message-----

                              From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>

                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                              Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am

                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

                              Thinking?



                               



                              From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one

                              (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.

                               

                              I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did

                              (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,

                              these two seemed to be on the same page,

                              so to speak.

                               

                              Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?

                               

                              It is all poetry.

                               

                              Thanks for the link.

                               

                              Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where

                              Kabir got this information.

                               

                              Do you know?  



                              --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:



                              From: etznab@... <etznab@...>

                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

                              Thinking?

                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                              Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM



                               



                              That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

                              supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to

                              connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

                              all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.



                              R.T.



                              Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know

                              about Kal Niranjan, etc.



                              Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas

                              issued from Sat Purush.



                              "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-

                              Niranjan was incarnated."



                              http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&

                              book=4817& page=23



                              This page tells about it. And the links go to how the

                              lower worlds were created.



                              I doubt that is all to be taken literally.



                              Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on

                              Eckankar?



                              "No written instructions had been put

                              down for the

                              followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the

                              sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,

                              took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the

                              ancient science of Soul Travel."



                              [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1

                              (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,

                              p. 59]



                              And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than

                              Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly

                              gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).



                              Etznab



                              -----Original Message-----

                              From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>

                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                              Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm

                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

                              Thinking?



                               



                              Hi there!

                               

                              The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!

                               

                              Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published

                              short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with

                              my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my

                              idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very

                              point.

                               

                              I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's

                              son,

                              but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in

                              the margins

                              of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in

                              order

                              to have any kind

                              of relationship with Spirit.

                               

                              And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 

                              Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 

                               

                              How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

                               

                              And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

                               

                              It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.

                               

                              That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

                              supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 

                              connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

                              all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                               

                              And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"

                              throughout history.

                               

                              Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

                               

                              I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,

                              say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all

                              psychologically open to auto-suggestion.

                               

                              If things go well, it is because of Harold. If

                              not, it is because

                              the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 

                               

                              Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

                               

                              Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

                               

                              Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.

                               

                              Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"

                              out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the

                              unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering

                              BECAUSE of Eckankar!

                               

                              They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 

                              Their little world of "Super Normal" people.

                               

                              With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"

                              are in Eckankar.

                               

                              What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"

                              or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !

                               

                              What could be worse than that? 

                               

                              Or being "demoted" as a person in any

                              way?

                               

                              They give all their power to the heirarchy.

                               

                              They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,

                              but it is psychological.

                               

                              Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 

                               

                              The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.

                               

                              But you knew that!

                               

                               

                               

                                       

                               

                                     



                              --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

                              wrote:



                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

                              Subject:

                              [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?

                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                              Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM



                               



                              Hello All,

                              Thanks for sharing your

                              comments and the info

                              about these books!



                              As far as "transcending

                              religion" it seems that this

                              is what we thought we were

                              doing when we joined the

                              "path" of Eckankar way back

                              when.



                              Early on, Eckankar seemed

                              to have a certain mystique

                              about it. The reality, now,

                              is that it was never what we

                              imagined or desired. This

                              PT/HK consciousness is based

                              upon delusions, lies, and

                              manipulations frozen

                              in time as meaningless and

                              imagined experiences and

                              dreams via Klemp's over-

                              simplified and mind

                              numbing

                              hypnotic message. This is

                              the "real" reason people fall

                              asleep during his talks! And,

                              there's No spiritual meat

                              (protein)!



                              The Eckankar message is

                              merely a redundancy and

                              regurgitation of empty 2nd

                              and 4th Plane thoughts and

                              words.



                              PT's Eckankar is a New Age/

                              Westernized rewrite of the



                              Eastern thoughts and dogmas

                              once borrowed and plagiarized

                              (compiled) from Sant Mat

                              religions (etc.), and from

                              more knowledgeable/

                              enlightened people by

                              the trickster Twitchell.



                              HK's EK "path" has not only

                              become Christianized, but

                              has also been exposed as

                              just another "Feel Good"

                              religious sect that preaches

                              one thing and does another!

                              It's a Codependent scam!



                              Thus, the Klemps' egos

                              are feeling pretty good

                              right now and the "trickle-

                              down effect" is still sustaining

                              their EK followers/sheep/

                              chickens in the same ways

                              as other religions work

                              their

                              magic on the numb, dumb,

                              fearful, and superstitious

                              masses.



                              Still, for Eckists who think

                              they can see beyond the

                              veil/void it's amazing to

                              see that they are quite

                              incapable of true change

                              and of discovering the

                              real path of TRUTH, and

                              of experiencing the art

                              of the obvious.



                              Truth has escaped these

                              Eckists and they will forever

                              remain a pawn of the KAL

                              and under Klemp's trance

                              of providing "sales service."



                              This, of course, benefits HK's

                              selfish motives, and, on the

                              other hand, it helps to give

                              Eckists a "higher" purpose.

                              This is why Klemp feels he

                              is doing no harm since it

                              provides of service for lost

                              Souls until they become advanced

                              enough to realize they don't

                              need a middleman.



                              However, the "catch" lies

                              within the promises made

                              and the innate desire of

                              soul to "Know" God and to

                              return Home again. Eckankar

                              manipulates this desire

                              with

                              "initiations" that are turned

                              into a KAL "Trap/Test."



                              However, Not Desiring Initiations

                              (via a pure heart) is another

                              trap/test that has merely been

                              disguised while the "desire"

                              remains hidden from outer

                              sight. Thus, it seems to be

                              okay to "imagine" (and still

                              desire)

                              higher initiations on

                              the "INNER" via the ruse of

                              needing a Mahanta for more

                              and more of these fake initiations

                              in order to expand consciousness

                              for more and more spiritual

                              progress.



                              Eckists are chasing their tails

                              via Twitchell's and Klemp's

                              rendition of circular logic and

                              thinking. How can Self-Mastery

                              and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished

                              in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp

                              is training Eckists to become

                              more and more Codependent

                              upon the Mahanta and their

                              desires and attachments?



                              Look at the ECK stories... they

                              all require the intercession and

                              help of the Mahanta. Eckists,

                              via

                              self-hypnosis and programming,

                              (attachment) are being taught

                              to call upon the Mahanta for

                              anything and everything.. . but

                              where is Soul and where is the

                              ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because

                              one mouthes certain "charged"

                              4th Plane words or thinks he/

                              she is "detached" doesn't make



                              it so!



                              What's interesting is that these

                              two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)

                              don't require money in order

                              to maintain (outer and Inner

                              initiations) a higher consciousness. ..

                              but Klemp does! Initiations aren't

                              needed! This is what structured

                              (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in

                              order to control groups of people.

                              I'm amazed that Eckists can't or

                              don't want to see the correlation

                              and connect-the- dots.



                              Why can't or won't Eckists connect-

                              the-dots? It probably has to do

                              with their feelings of being "Superior

                              Normal" and the delusion that

                              gives them "all the answers" in

                              order to alleviate their

                              doubts

                              and fears. The ego makes a better

                              servant than it does a master,

                              but with "initiations" and a "RESA

                              hierarchy" Eckists can't separate

                              ego from Soul.



                              Thus, when "Starting To Get It"

                              (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)

                              writes what she did, in the 09/2009

                              H.I.

                              Letter, one has to wonder...

                              What has Klemp been teaching

                              his followers since he's been

                              in charge?



                              Prometheus



                              realbizarretarzs wrote:



                              So true. I really enjoyed your

                              experiment.



                              I used to do that sort of stuff

                              until it became more sad than

                              amusing.



                              Also, a while back, I forgot

                              to mention the books of

                              Alan Watts, starting with

                              "The Way of Zen" and

                              "The Wisdom of Insecurity".



                              The second title, of course,

                              is a paradox, but one that

                              makes sense without having

                              to go too far into the book

                              to see what he is talking about.



                              One doesn't have to be necessarily

                              into Zen or even

                              Buddhism to

                              understand where he was coming

                              from.



                              His books are very easy to read

                              and are somewhat humorous.



                              Interestingly, he obtained

                              a master's degree in theology

                              and "divinity" but went on to

                              write twenty to thirty books

                              on Zen and Indian and

                              Chinese

                              philosophies, and the psychology

                              of religion, and the importance

                              of mysticism insofar as the

                              individual transcending man-

                              made religion.



                              whitemoby wrote:



                              Truth can never by systemized,

                              no matter how eloquently.



                              Moby



                              Rebazar Tarzs wrote:



                              In the story, Joseph Knecht,

                              after following instructions

                              to the letter, but not losing

                              his intuition, begins to question

                              everything, and comes to

                              see "Castilia" (or, insert your

                              favorite or not-so-favorite

                              community Utopia) as a kind

                              of ivory tower, oblivious to

                              real life, and thus, reality.



                              He begins to realize that,

                              after many years, and

                              many

                              relationships, Castilia is a

                              self-protected society that

                              does little, if anything, for

                              the world outside its borders,

                              and is burderned by a hierarchy

                              of personalities and games

                              people play.



                              I won't reveal any more than

                              this, in

                              case someone is

                              currently reading "Magister

                              Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"

                              but I will say this - throughout

                              the whole story, Bruce Willis

                              is dead.



                              What?!?



                              No, actually, the truth seeker,

                              Knecht (which, in German,

                              means servant and/or knight)

                              (or so the Germans would have

                              us believe) is, to the dumb-

                              foundment of his "superiors",

                              really looking for truth.



                              No substitutes.



                              I hope I didn't give away too

                              much, as the book is almost

                              600 pages long, but, actually,

                              I haven't, because there is

                              so much truth in the story

                              that everytime I re-read it,

                              I realize something new.



                              I know we used to say that

                              about certain

                              ECK books

                              (before Harold) but the

                              stuff that Paul took from

                              others is timeless as well.



                              What was kind of amusing

                              is that when I read the book

                              the first time, Darwin was

                              the "Master."



                              One of the first main characters



                              in the story is the "Music Master."



                              prometheus wrote:



                              Here's a review from Amazon.com

                              of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:



                              "What is the Glass Bead Game?

                              It is no less than the highest

                              reason that an entire future

                              civilization exists. It is the

                              grand and ongoing synthesis

                              of all knowledge into a unified,

                              integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)



                              It is an attempt to forge a

                              holographic intellectual world

                              where all is interconnected and

                              reflected in every part. This is

                              a mission to weave the golden

                              thread of significance and meaning

                              through every part of a culture-

                              science and the arts and the

                              spiritual are all unified into a

                              system of

                              concentric, interpenetrating

                              rings.



                              All this is primarily accomplished

                              by using the language of music

                              and mathematics as common

                              universal symbolism (the "glass

                              beads" are part of a symbolic

                              physical

                              aid that was once used

                              for this purpose.)



                              It is no wonder that the book

                              places the first origins of the

                              game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,

                              and Socratic ethics. No wonder

                              that the League of Journeyers

                              to the East also figure prominently

                              in its development. To some

                              extent the Game has been the

                              goal of all sensitive and introspective

                              individuals and groups down

                              through the ages.



                              All of this stands in stark contrast

                              to our own Feuilletonistic Age

                              where all knowledge, all culture,

                              is unsynthesized, chaotic, and

                              largely meaningless babble.



                              The crisis that develops from

                              this is that even if you accomplish

                              this grand synthesis in some isolated

                              ivory tower refuge of

                              intellectual

                              contemplatives- it isn't enough.



                              It is necessary to reach out to the

                              entire society once it is achieved

                              in the same way that a Bodhisattva

                              attempts to enlighten the rest

                              of

                              mankind instead of individually

                              passing onto Nirvana. The entire

                              society must be made whole and

                              sacred and not just an isolated elite.



                              This is the realization that comes

                              even to the Magister Ludi, the

                              Master of the Game.



                              For the game to be ultimately

                              meaningful we have to coach

                              everyone to eventually become

                              Masters."



                              ************ ********* ********* ****



                              Thus, another reason to justify religion!

                              Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/

                              outflow principle) be accomplished without

                              the religious strings attached? Not by

                              Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached

                              to their membership donations or else

                              they can lose

                              initiations!



                              Prometheus
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Etznab and All, I m wondering why or if Eckists have ever noticed that their religion is dualistic versus non-dualistic. And, have Eckists ever pondered
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello Etznab and All,
                                I'm wondering why or if Eckists
                                have ever noticed that their religion
                                is dualistic versus non-dualistic.
                                And, have Eckists ever pondered
                                or contemplated on the differences
                                between the two?

                                With Klemp everything is black or
                                white, pos. or neg., outer or inner,
                                right or wrong, passion or virtue,
                                low versus high.

                                Myself... I don't see that these
                                opposites have anything to do
                                with the Divine. It's more about
                                us and how religions have interpreted
                                the Divine in order to analyze
                                and explain or understand IT.


                                Prometheus



                                etznab wrote:


                                I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.
                                And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

                                Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked
                                similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I
                                believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I
                                saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed
                                over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks
                                similar in some ways, but different.

                                http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html

                                Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and
                                Kapila.

                                In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh
                                are mentioned here.

                                http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html

                                It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak
                                Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

                                The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the
                                teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number
                                of similarities. IMO.

                                The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are
                                curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya
                                philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show
                                the order and sequence of creation.)

                                The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

                                It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for
                                Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by
                                Kabir.

                                The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

                                The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.

                                http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                The apparent tendency in both systems seems
                                to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

                                From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

                                "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:
                                When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was
                                incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the
                                body of Sat Purush â€" that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"

                                http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described
                                as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's
                                story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,
                                where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

                                IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are
                                the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths
                                literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas
                                that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal
                                organized religious interpretations which may be far,
                                far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-
                                come disconnected from the true origins of their path
                                appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"
                                leading the "blind".

                                As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

                                See what I mean? :)

                                For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)
                                is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To
                                look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

                                Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and
                                clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have
                                visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't
                                have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths
                                except when they are taken literally and people don't see
                                the difference between fiction and fact.

                                Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can
                                the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell
                                from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

                                I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from
                                the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and
                                keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same
                                teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the
                                lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

                                Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-
                                ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

                                However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these
                                stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.
                                Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of
                                them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those
                                sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be
                                they members of a particular religion or not - often have
                                to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms
                                of "torture" for speaking their minds.

                                Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-
                                pool and everything goes down the drain? :)

                                Etznab
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