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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?

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  • Rebazar Tarzs
    So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.   I used to do that sort of stuff until it became  more sad than amusing.   Also, a while back, I  forgot to
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
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      So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.
       
      I used to do that sort of stuff until it became 
      more sad than amusing.
       
      Also, a while back, I  forgot to mention the books of
      Alan Watts, starting with "The Way of Zen" and
      "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
       
      The second title, of course, is a paradox, but one that
      makes sense without having to go too far into the book
      to see what he is talking about.
       
      One doesn't have to be necessarily into Zen or even
      Buddhism to understand where he was coming from.
       
      His books are very easy to read and are somewhat humorous.
       
      Interestingly, he obtained a master's degree in theology and
      "divinity" but went on  to write twenty to thirty books on Zen
      and Indian and Chinese philosophies, and the psychology
      of religion, and the importance of mysticism insofar as the
      individual transcending man-made religion.    

      --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...> wrote:

      From: Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...>
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 3:26 PM

       
      Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
       
      Moby


      From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
      Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?

       
      In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
      losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
      "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
      as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
       
      He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
      Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
      world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
      and games people play.
       
      I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
      "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
      the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
       
      What?!?
       
      No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
      servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
      is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
       
      No substitutes.
       
      I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
      long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
      that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
       
      I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
      but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
       
      What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
      Darwin was the "Master."
       
      One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
       
       
       
        

      --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
      Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM

       
      Here's a review from Amazon.com
      of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

      "What is the Glass Bead Game?
      It is no less than the highest
      reason that an entire future
      civilization exists. It is the
      grand and ongoing synthesis
      of all knowledge into a unified,
      integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

      It is an attempt to forge a
      holographic intellectual world
      where all is interconnected and
      reflected in every part. This is
      a mission to weave the golden
      thread of significance and meaning
      through every part of a culture-
      science and the arts and the
      spiritual are all unified into a
      system of concentric, interpenetrating
      rings.

      All this is primarily accomplished
      by using the language of music
      and mathematics as common
      universal symbolism (the "glass
      beads" are part of a symbolic
      physical aid that was once used
      for this purpose.)

      It is no wonder that the book
      places the first origins of the
      game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
      and Socratic ethics. No wonder
      that the League of Journeyers
      to the East also figure prominently
      in its development. To some
      extent the Game has been the
      goal of all sensitive and introspective
      individuals and groups down
      through the ages.

      All of this stands in stark contrast
      to our own Feuilletonistic Age
      where all knowledge, all culture,
      is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
      largely meaningless babble.

      The crisis that develops from
      this is that even if you accomplish
      this grand synthesis in some isolated
      ivory tower refuge of intellectual
      contemplatives- it isn't enough.

      It is necessary to reach out to the
      entire society once it is achieved
      in the same way that a Bodhisattva
      attempts to enlighten the rest of
      mankind instead of individually
      passing onto Nirvana. The entire
      society must be made whole and
      sacred and not just an isolated elite.

      This is the realization that comes
      even to the Magister Ludi, the
      Master of the Game.

      For the game to be ultimately
      meaningful we have to coach
      everyone to eventually become
      Masters."

      ************ ********* ********* ****

      Thus, another reason to justify religion!
      Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
      outflow principle) be accomplished without
      the religious strings attached? Not by
      Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
      to their membership donations or else
      they can lose initiations!

      Prometheus




    • Moby
      Paul Twitchell himself once said, The most we can say about Truth is that is travels in a certain direction. And though he surely copied that from
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Paul Twitchell himself once said, "The most we can say about Truth is that is travels in a certain direction." And though he surely copied that from somewhere, it affected me nonetheless. Too bad Eckankar went on to define Truth and Freedom right out of existence.

        I didn't do that experiment to be cruel, but to actually confirm something for myself. Eckists (at least, many of them) have unconsciosly "attached" to some nebulous, self serving notion of "Eckankar". You cannot use reason against so blind a motivation.

        Alan Watts has long been on my reading list. I may just move him up in the rotation.

        Moby....




        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...> wrote:
        >
        > So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.
        >  
        > I used to do that sort of stuff until it became 
        > more sad than amusing.
        >  
        > Also, a while back, I  forgot to mention the books of
        > Alan Watts, starting with "The Way of Zen" and
        > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
        >  
        > The second title, of course, is a paradox, but one that
        > makes sense without having to go too far into the book
        > to see what he is talking about.
        >  
        > One doesn't have to be necessarily into Zen or even
        > Buddhism to understand where he was coming from.
        >  
        > His books are very easy to read and are somewhat humorous.
        >  
        > Interestingly, he obtained a master's degree in theology and
        > "divinity" but went on  to write twenty to thirty books on Zen
        > and Indian and Chinese philosophies, and the psychology
        > of religion, and the importance of mysticism insofar as the
        > individual transcending man-made religion.    
        >
        > --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...>
        > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 3:26 PM
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
        >  
        > Moby
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
        > Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
        > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
        > losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
        > "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
        > as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
        >  
        > He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
        > Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
        > world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
        > and games people play.
        >  
        > I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
        > "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
        > the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
        >  
        > What?!?
        >  
        > No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
        > servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
        > is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
        >  
        > No substitutes.
        >  
        > I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
        > long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
        > that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
        >  
        > I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
        > but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
        >  
        > What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
        > Darwin was the "Master."
        >  
        > One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >   
        >
        > --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
        > Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        > Here's a review from Amazon.com
        > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
        >
        > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
        > It is no less than the highest
        > reason that an entire future
        > civilization exists. It is the
        > grand and ongoing synthesis
        > of all knowledge into a unified,
        > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
        >
        > It is an attempt to forge a
        > holographic intellectual world
        > where all is interconnected and
        > reflected in every part. This is
        > a mission to weave the golden
        > thread of significance and meaning
        > through every part of a culture-
        > science and the arts and the
        > spiritual are all unified into a
        > system of concentric, interpenetrating
        > rings.
        >
        > All this is primarily accomplished
        > by using the language of music
        > and mathematics as common
        > universal symbolism (the "glass
        > beads" are part of a symbolic
        > physical aid that was once used
        > for this purpose.)
        >
        > It is no wonder that the book
        > places the first origins of the
        > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
        > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
        > that the League of Journeyers
        > to the East also figure prominently
        > in its development. To some
        > extent the Game has been the
        > goal of all sensitive and introspective
        > individuals and groups down
        > through the ages.
        >
        > All of this stands in stark contrast
        > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
        > where all knowledge, all culture,
        > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
        > largely meaningless babble.
        >
        > The crisis that develops from
        > this is that even if you accomplish
        > this grand synthesis in some isolated
        > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
        > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
        >
        > It is necessary to reach out to the
        > entire society once it is achieved
        > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
        > attempts to enlighten the rest of
        > mankind instead of individually
        > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
        > society must be made whole and
        > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
        >
        > This is the realization that comes
        > even to the Magister Ludi, the
        > Master of the Game.
        >
        > For the game to be ultimately
        > meaningful we have to coach
        > everyone to eventually become
        > Masters."
        >
        > ************ ********* ********* ****
        >
        > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
        > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
        > outflow principle) be accomplished without
        > the religious strings attached? Not by
        > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
        > to their membership donations or else
        > they can lose initiations!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • Rebazar Tarzs
        A person who is a fanatic in matters of religion, and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe, becomes a person who has no faith ...
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          "A person who is a fanatic in matters of religion,
          and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God
          and the universe, becomes a person who has no
          faith ... True faith is to let go, and become open to truth,
          whatever it might turn out  to be ... But at any rate,
          the point is that God is what nobody admits to being,
          and everybody really is."
           
          -  Alan Watts
           
          It seems that Shams of Tabriz a/k/a Shams-i-Tabriz
          a/k/a Shamus-i-Tabriz, was saying the same thing.
           
          There is one discourse in which Paul says that he didn't
          know any of the "ECK Masters" until after he translated.
           
          He was the "Mahanta" and didn't know it.
           
          In other words, he didn't need any help from middle men.  
           
          Rumi accepted him as a guide, as would any intelligent
          seeker of truth, although most of Rumi's followers thought
          he was crazy for doing so. Of course, he did was he thought
          was best.    
           
          As Paul once said, "One learns by being around one who knows."   

          --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Moby <whitemoby22@...> wrote:

          From: Moby <whitemoby22@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 5:27 PM

           
          Paul Twitchell himself once said, "The most we can say about Truth is that is travels in a certain direction." And though he surely copied that from somewhere, it affected me nonetheless. Too bad Eckankar went on to define Truth and Freedom right out of existence.

          I didn't do that experiment to be cruel, but to actually confirm something for myself. Eckists (at least, many of them) have unconsciosly "attached" to some nebulous, self serving notion of "Eckankar". You cannot use reason against so blind a motivation.

          Alan Watts has long been on my reading list. I may just move him up in the rotation.

          Moby....

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.
          >  
          > I used to do that sort of stuff until it became 
          > more sad than amusing.
          >  
          > Also, a while back, I  forgot to mention the books of
          > Alan Watts, starting with "The Way of Zen" and
          > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
          >  
          > The second title, of course, is a paradox, but one that
          > makes sense without having to go too far into the book
          > to see what he is talking about.
          >  
          > One doesn't have to be necessarily into Zen or even
          > Buddhism to understand where he was coming from.
          >  
          > His books are very easy to read and are somewhat humorous.
          >  
          > Interestingly, he obtained a master's degree in theology and
          > "divinity" but went on  to write twenty to thirty books on Zen
          > and Indian and Chinese philosophies, and the psychology
          > of religion, and the importance of mysticism insofar as the
          > individual transcending man-made religion.    
          >
          > --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@ ...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@ ...>
          > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          > Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 3:26 PM
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
          >  
          > Moby
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          > Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
          > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
          > losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
          > "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
          > as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
          >  
          > He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
          > Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
          > world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
          > and games people play.
          >  
          > I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
          > "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
          > the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
          >  
          > What?!?
          >  
          > No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
          > servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
          > is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
          >  
          > No substitutes.
          >  
          > I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
          > long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
          > that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
          >  
          > I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
          > but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
          >  
          > What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
          > Darwin was the "Master."
          >  
          > One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
          >  
          >  
          >  
          >   
          >
          > --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          > Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          > Here's a review from Amazon.com
          > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
          >
          > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
          > It is no less than the highest
          > reason that an entire future
          > civilization exists. It is the
          > grand and ongoing synthesis
          > of all knowledge into a unified,
          > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
          >
          > It is an attempt to forge a
          > holographic intellectual world
          > where all is interconnected and
          > reflected in every part. This is
          > a mission to weave the golden
          > thread of significance and meaning
          > through every part of a culture-
          > science and the arts and the
          > spiritual are all unified into a
          > system of concentric, interpenetrating
          > rings.
          >
          > All this is primarily accomplished
          > by using the language of music
          > and mathematics as common
          > universal symbolism (the "glass
          > beads" are part of a symbolic
          > physical aid that was once used
          > for this purpose.)
          >
          > It is no wonder that the book
          > places the first origins of the
          > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
          > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
          > that the League of Journeyers
          > to the East also figure prominently
          > in its development. To some
          > extent the Game has been the
          > goal of all sensitive and introspective
          > individuals and groups down
          > through the ages.
          >
          > All of this stands in stark contrast
          > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
          > where all knowledge, all culture,
          > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
          > largely meaningless babble.
          >
          > The crisis that develops from
          > this is that even if you accomplish
          > this grand synthesis in some isolated
          > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
          > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
          >
          > It is necessary to reach out to the
          > entire society once it is achieved
          > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
          > attempts to enlighten the rest of
          > mankind instead of individually
          > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
          > society must be made whole and
          > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
          >
          > This is the realization that comes
          > even to the Magister Ludi, the
          > Master of the Game.
          >
          > For the game to be ultimately
          > meaningful we have to coach
          > everyone to eventually become
          > Masters."
          >
          > ************ ********* ********* ****
          >
          > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
          > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
          > outflow principle) be accomplished without
          > the religious strings attached? Not by
          > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
          > to their membership donations or else
          > they can lose initiations!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >


        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, Thanks for sharing your comments and the info about these books! As far as transcending religion it seems that this is what we thought we were
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello All,
            Thanks for sharing your
            comments and the info
            about these books!

            As far as "transcending
            religion" it seems that this
            is what we thought we were
            doing when we joined the
            "path" of Eckankar way back
            when.

            Early on, Eckankar seemed
            to have a certain mystique
            about it. The reality, now,
            is that it was never what we
            imagined or desired. This
            PT/HK consciousness is based
            upon delusions, lies, and
            manipulations frozen
            in time as meaningless and
            imagined experiences and
            dreams via Klemp's over-
            simplified and mind numbing
            hypnotic message. This is
            the "real" reason people fall
            asleep during his talks! And,
            there's No spiritual meat
            (protein)!

            The Eckankar message is
            merely a redundancy and
            regurgitation of empty 2nd
            and 4th Plane thoughts and
            words.

            PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
            Westernized rewrite of the
            Eastern thoughts and dogmas
            once borrowed and plagiarized
            (compiled) from Sant Mat
            religions (etc.), and from
            more knowledgeable/
            enlightened people by
            the trickster Twitchell.

            HK's EK "path" has not only
            become Christianized, but
            has also been exposed as
            just another "Feel Good"
            religious sect that preaches
            one thing and does another!
            It's a Codependent scam!

            Thus, the Klemps' egos
            are feeling pretty good
            right now and the "trickle-
            down effect" is still sustaining
            their EK followers/sheep/
            chickens in the same ways
            as other religions work their
            magic on the numb, dumb,
            fearful, and superstitious
            masses.

            Still, for Eckists who think
            they can see beyond the
            veil/void it's amazing to
            see that they are quite
            incapable of true change
            and of discovering the
            real path of TRUTH, and
            of experiencing the art
            of the obvious.

            Truth has escaped these
            Eckists and they will forever
            remain a pawn of the KAL
            and under Klemp's trance
            of providing "sales service."

            This, of course, benefits HK's
            selfish motives, and, on the
            other hand, it helps to give
            Eckists a "higher" purpose.
            This is why Klemp feels he
            is doing no harm since it
            provides of service for lost
            Souls until they become advanced
            enough to realize they don't
            need a middleman.

            However, the "catch" lies
            within the promises made
            and the innate desire of
            soul to "Know" God and to
            return Home again. Eckankar
            manipulates this desire with
            "initiations" that are turned
            into a KAL "Trap/Test."

            However, Not Desiring Initiations
            (via a pure heart) is another
            trap/test that has merely been
            disguised while the "desire"
            remains hidden from outer
            sight. Thus, it seems to be
            okay to "imagine" (and still
            desire) higher initiations on
            the "INNER" via the ruse of
            needing a Mahanta for more
            and more of these fake initiations
            in order to expand consciousness
            for more and more spiritual
            progress.

            Eckists are chasing their tails
            via Twitchell's and Klemp's
            rendition of circular logic and
            thinking. How can Self-Mastery
            and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
            in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
            is training Eckists to become
            more and more Codependent
            upon the Mahanta and their
            desires and attachments?

            Look at the ECK stories... they
            all require the intercession and
            help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
            via self-hypnosis and programming,
            (attachment) are being taught
            to call upon the Mahanta for
            anything and everything... but
            where is Soul and where is the
            ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
            one mouthes certain "charged"
            4th Plane words or thinks he/
            she is "detached" doesn't make
            it so!

            What's interesting is that these
            two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
            don't require money in order
            to maintain (outer and Inner
            initiations) a higher consciousness...
            but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
            needed! This is what structured
            (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
            order to control groups of people.
            I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
            don't want to see the correlation
            and connect-the-dots.

            Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
            the-dots? It probably has to do
            with their feelings of being "Superior
            Normal" and the delusion that
            gives them "all the answers" in
            order to alleviate their doubts
            and fears. The ego makes a better
            servant than it does a master,
            but with "initiations" and a "RESA
            hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
            ego from Soul.

            Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
            (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
            writes what she did, in the 09/2009
            H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
            What has Klemp been teaching
            his followers since he's been
            in charge?

            Prometheus

            realbizarretarzs wrote:

            So true. I really enjoyed your
            experiment.

            I used to do that sort of stuff
            until it became more sad than
            amusing.

            Also, a while back, I forgot
            to mention the books of
            Alan Watts, starting with
            "The Way of Zen" and
            "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

            The second title, of course,
            is a paradox, but one that
            makes sense without having
            to go too far into the book
            to see what he is talking about.

            One doesn't have to be necessarily
            into Zen or even Buddhism to
            understand where he was coming
            from.

            His books are very easy to read
            and are somewhat humorous.

            Interestingly, he obtained
            a master's degree in theology
            and "divinity" but went on to
            write twenty to thirty books
            on Zen and Indian and Chinese
            philosophies, and the psychology
            of religion, and the importance
            of mysticism insofar as the
            individual transcending man-
            made religion.


            whitemoby wrote:


            Truth can never by systemized,
            no matter how eloquently.

            Moby

            Rebazar Tarzs wrote:


            In the story, Joseph Knecht,
            after following instructions
            to the letter, but not losing
            his intuition, begins to question
            everything, and comes to
            see "Castilia" (or, insert your
            favorite or not-so-favorite
            community Utopia) as a kind
            of ivory tower, oblivious to
            real life, and thus, reality.

            He begins to realize that,
            after many years, and many
            relationships, Castilia is a
            self-protected society that
            does little, if anything, for
            the world outside its borders,
            and is burderned by a hierarchy
            of personalities and games
            people play.

            I won't reveal any more than
            this, in case someone is
            currently reading "Magister
            Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
            but I will say this - throughout
            the whole story, Bruce Willis
            is dead.

            What?!?

            No, actually, the truth seeker,
            Knecht (which, in German,
            means servant and/or knight)
            (or so the Germans would have
            us believe) is, to the dumb-
            foundment of his "superiors",
            really looking for truth.

            No substitutes.

            I hope I didn't give away too
            much, as the book is almost
            600 pages long, but, actually,
            I haven't, because there is
            so much truth in the story
            that everytime I re-read it,
            I realize something new.

            I know we used to say that
            about certain ECK books
            (before Harold) but the
            stuff that Paul took from
            others is timeless as well.

            What was kind of amusing
            is that when I read the book
            the first time, Darwin was
            the "Master."

            One of the first main characters
            in the story is the "Music Master."


            prometheus wrote:

            Here's a review from Amazon.com
            of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

            "What is the Glass Bead Game?
            It is no less than the highest
            reason that an entire future
            civilization exists. It is the
            grand and ongoing synthesis
            of all knowledge into a unified,
            integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

            It is an attempt to forge a
            holographic intellectual world
            where all is interconnected and
            reflected in every part. This is
            a mission to weave the golden
            thread of significance and meaning
            through every part of a culture-
            science and the arts and the
            spiritual are all unified into a
            system of concentric, interpenetrating
            rings.

            All this is primarily accomplished
            by using the language of music
            and mathematics as common
            universal symbolism (the "glass
            beads" are part of a symbolic
            physical aid that was once used
            for this purpose.)

            It is no wonder that the book
            places the first origins of the
            game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
            and Socratic ethics. No wonder
            that the League of Journeyers
            to the East also figure prominently
            in its development. To some
            extent the Game has been the
            goal of all sensitive and introspective
            individuals and groups down
            through the ages.

            All of this stands in stark contrast
            to our own Feuilletonistic Age
            where all knowledge, all culture,
            is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
            largely meaningless babble.

            The crisis that develops from
            this is that even if you accomplish
            this grand synthesis in some isolated
            ivory tower refuge of intellectual
            contemplatives- it isn't enough.

            It is necessary to reach out to the
            entire society once it is achieved
            in the same way that a Bodhisattva
            attempts to enlighten the rest of
            mankind instead of individually
            passing onto Nirvana. The entire
            society must be made whole and
            sacred and not just an isolated elite.

            This is the realization that comes
            even to the Magister Ludi, the
            Master of the Game.

            For the game to be ultimately
            meaningful we have to coach
            everyone to eventually become
            Masters."

            **********************************

            Thus, another reason to justify religion!
            Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
            outflow principle) be accomplished without
            the religious strings attached? Not by
            Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
            to their membership donations or else
            they can lose initiations!

            Prometheus
          • Rebazar Tarzs
            Hi there!   The intercession part is the part I really don t understand!   Because of Key To Secret Worlds and the previously published short articles
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi there!
               
              The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
               
              Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
              short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
              my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
              idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
              point.
               
              I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's son,
              but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in the margins
              of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in order
              to have any kind of relationship with Spirit.
               
              And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
              Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
               
              How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
               
              And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
               
              It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
               
              That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
              supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
              connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
              all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
               
              And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
              throughout history.
               
              Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
               
              I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
              say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
              psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
               
              If things go well, it is because of Harold. If not, it is because
              the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
               
              Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
               
              Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
               
              Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
               
              Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
              out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences", but fear of the
              unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
              BECAUSE of Eckankar!
               
              They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
              Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
               
              With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
              are in Eckankar.
               
              What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
              or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations"!
               
              What could be worse than that? 
               
              Or being "demoted" as a person in any way?
               
              They give all their power to the heirarchy.
               
              They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
              but it is psychological.
               
              Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
               
              The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
               
              But you knew that!
               
               
               
                       
               
                     

              --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

               
              Hello All,
              Thanks for sharing your
              comments and the info
              about these books!

              As far as "transcending
              religion" it seems that this
              is what we thought we were
              doing when we joined the
              "path" of Eckankar way back
              when.

              Early on, Eckankar seemed
              to have a certain mystique
              about it. The reality, now,
              is that it was never what we
              imagined or desired. This
              PT/HK consciousness is based
              upon delusions, lies, and
              manipulations frozen
              in time as meaningless and
              imagined experiences and
              dreams via Klemp's over-
              simplified and mind numbing
              hypnotic message. This is
              the "real" reason people fall
              asleep during his talks! And,
              there's No spiritual meat
              (protein)!

              The Eckankar message is
              merely a redundancy and
              regurgitation of empty 2nd
              and 4th Plane thoughts and
              words.

              PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
              Westernized rewrite of the
              Eastern thoughts and dogmas
              once borrowed and plagiarized
              (compiled) from Sant Mat
              religions (etc.), and from
              more knowledgeable/
              enlightened people by
              the trickster Twitchell.

              HK's EK "path" has not only
              become Christianized, but
              has also been exposed as
              just another "Feel Good"
              religious sect that preaches
              one thing and does another!
              It's a Codependent scam!

              Thus, the Klemps' egos
              are feeling pretty good
              right now and the "trickle-
              down effect" is still sustaining
              their EK followers/sheep/
              chickens in the same ways
              as other religions work their
              magic on the numb, dumb,
              fearful, and superstitious
              masses.

              Still, for Eckists who think
              they can see beyond the
              veil/void it's amazing to
              see that they are quite
              incapable of true change
              and of discovering the
              real path of TRUTH, and
              of experiencing the art
              of the obvious.

              Truth has escaped these
              Eckists and they will forever
              remain a pawn of the KAL
              and under Klemp's trance
              of providing "sales service."

              This, of course, benefits HK's
              selfish motives, and, on the
              other hand, it helps to give
              Eckists a "higher" purpose.
              This is why Klemp feels he
              is doing no harm since it
              provides of service for lost
              Souls until they become advanced
              enough to realize they don't
              need a middleman.

              However, the "catch" lies
              within the promises made
              and the innate desire of
              soul to "Know" God and to
              return Home again. Eckankar
              manipulates this desire with
              "initiations" that are turned
              into a KAL "Trap/Test."

              However, Not Desiring Initiations
              (via a pure heart) is another
              trap/test that has merely been
              disguised while the "desire"
              remains hidden from outer
              sight. Thus, it seems to be
              okay to "imagine" (and still
              desire) higher initiations on
              the "INNER" via the ruse of
              needing a Mahanta for more
              and more of these fake initiations
              in order to expand consciousness
              for more and more spiritual
              progress.

              Eckists are chasing their tails
              via Twitchell's and Klemp's
              rendition of circular logic and
              thinking. How can Self-Mastery
              and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
              in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
              is training Eckists to become
              more and more Codependent
              upon the Mahanta and their
              desires and attachments?

              Look at the ECK stories... they
              all require the intercession and
              help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
              via self-hypnosis and programming,
              (attachment) are being taught
              to call upon the Mahanta for
              anything and everything.. . but
              where is Soul and where is the
              ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
              one mouthes certain "charged"
              4th Plane words or thinks he/
              she is "detached" doesn't make
              it so!

              What's interesting is that these
              two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
              don't require money in order
              to maintain (outer and Inner
              initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
              but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
              needed! This is what structured
              (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
              order to control groups of people.
              I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
              don't want to see the correlation
              and connect-the- dots.

              Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
              the-dots? It probably has to do
              with their feelings of being "Superior
              Normal" and the delusion that
              gives them "all the answers" in
              order to alleviate their doubts
              and fears. The ego makes a better
              servant than it does a master,
              but with "initiations" and a "RESA
              hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
              ego from Soul.

              Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
              (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
              writes what she did, in the 09/2009
              H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
              What has Klemp been teaching
              his followers since he's been
              in charge?

              Prometheus

              realbizarretarzs wrote:

              So true. I really enjoyed your
              experiment.

              I used to do that sort of stuff
              until it became more sad than
              amusing.

              Also, a while back, I forgot
              to mention the books of
              Alan Watts, starting with
              "The Way of Zen" and
              "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

              The second title, of course,
              is a paradox, but one that
              makes sense without having
              to go too far into the book
              to see what he is talking about.

              One doesn't have to be necessarily
              into Zen or even Buddhism to
              understand where he was coming
              from.

              His books are very easy to read
              and are somewhat humorous.

              Interestingly, he obtained
              a master's degree in theology
              and "divinity" but went on to
              write twenty to thirty books
              on Zen and Indian and Chinese
              philosophies, and the psychology
              of religion, and the importance
              of mysticism insofar as the
              individual transcending man-
              made religion.

              whitemoby wrote:

              Truth can never by systemized,
              no matter how eloquently.

              Moby

              Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

              In the story, Joseph Knecht,
              after following instructions
              to the letter, but not losing
              his intuition, begins to question
              everything, and comes to
              see "Castilia" (or, insert your
              favorite or not-so-favorite
              community Utopia) as a kind
              of ivory tower, oblivious to
              real life, and thus, reality.

              He begins to realize that,
              after many years, and many
              relationships, Castilia is a
              self-protected society that
              does little, if anything, for
              the world outside its borders,
              and is burderned by a hierarchy
              of personalities and games
              people play.

              I won't reveal any more than
              this, in case someone is
              currently reading "Magister
              Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
              but I will say this - throughout
              the whole story, Bruce Willis
              is dead.

              What?!?

              No, actually, the truth seeker,
              Knecht (which, in German,
              means servant and/or knight)
              (or so the Germans would have
              us believe) is, to the dumb-
              foundment of his "superiors",
              really looking for truth.

              No substitutes.

              I hope I didn't give away too
              much, as the book is almost
              600 pages long, but, actually,
              I haven't, because there is
              so much truth in the story
              that everytime I re-read it,
              I realize something new.

              I know we used to say that
              about certain ECK books
              (before Harold) but the
              stuff that Paul took from
              others is timeless as well.

              What was kind of amusing
              is that when I read the book
              the first time, Darwin was
              the "Master."

              One of the first main characters
              in the story is the "Music Master."


              prometheus wrote:

              Here's a review from Amazon.com
              of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

              "What is the Glass Bead Game?
              It is no less than the highest
              reason that an entire future
              civilization exists. It is the
              grand and ongoing synthesis
              of all knowledge into a unified,
              integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

              It is an attempt to forge a
              holographic intellectual world
              where all is interconnected and
              reflected in every part. This is
              a mission to weave the golden
              thread of significance and meaning
              through every part of a culture-
              science and the arts and the
              spiritual are all unified into a
              system of concentric, interpenetrating
              rings.

              All this is primarily accomplished
              by using the language of music
              and mathematics as common
              universal symbolism (the "glass
              beads" are part of a symbolic
              physical aid that was once used
              for this purpose.)

              It is no wonder that the book
              places the first origins of the
              game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
              and Socratic ethics. No wonder
              that the League of Journeyers
              to the East also figure prominently
              in its development. To some
              extent the Game has been the
              goal of all sensitive and introspective
              individuals and groups down
              through the ages.

              All of this stands in stark contrast
              to our own Feuilletonistic Age
              where all knowledge, all culture,
              is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
              largely meaningless babble.

              The crisis that develops from
              this is that even if you accomplish
              this grand synthesis in some isolated
              ivory tower refuge of intellectual
              contemplatives- it isn't enough.

              It is necessary to reach out to the
              entire society once it is achieved
              in the same way that a Bodhisattva
              attempts to enlighten the rest of
              mankind instead of individually
              passing onto Nirvana. The entire
              society must be made whole and
              sacred and not just an isolated elite.

              This is the realization that comes
              even to the Magister Ludi, the
              Master of the Game.

              For the game to be ultimately
              meaningful we have to coach
              everyone to eventually become
              Masters."

              ************ ********* ********* ****

              Thus, another reason to justify religion!
              Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
              outflow principle) be accomplished without
              the religious strings attached? Not by
              Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
              to their membership donations or else
              they can lose initiations!

              Prometheus


            • prometheus_973
              Hello All, In the Catholic Church there are all types within the spiritual hierarchy that can intercede with God on the behalf of man. Twitchell and Klemp
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello All,
                In the Catholic Church there
                are all types within the "spiritual
                hierarchy" that can intercede
                with God on the behalf of man.
                Twitchell and Klemp merely
                copied this as well and added
                EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6146

                The thing about doing research
                on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                version (with "c" added) along
                with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                more than 50 years ago!

                This No Contact is strange
                (not really) since Rebazar has
                been around for 500 years, in
                the same physical body, and
                even sailed with Columbus
                (according to Klemp)!

                Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                mentioning REBAZAR (the
                Torchbearer) by name nor
                is there anything written by
                RT (in his own hand) for 500
                years!

                And, since Rebazar does
                (supposedly) have a 500
                year old physical body why
                didn't he show up before and
                after Twit died versus Gail
                having to use a dream from
                Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?

                Why hasn't RT shown up at
                an EK Seminar in all of these
                years and given a talk? Is he
                too good for that?

                If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                isn't too good or too "high"
                to give a Seminar talk why
                can't Rebazar appear and
                give one too? He is a physical
                being, still! Thus, RT should
                be expected to show up every
                now and then. But... he hasn't
                ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                it because he pissed HK off by
                never showing up at an EK Seminar!

                Prometheus

                realbizarretarzs wrote:

                Hi there!

                The intercession part is the
                part I really don't understand!

                Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                and the previously published short
                articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                Free," I was at odds with my
                Presbyterian minister while taking
                confirmation classes (not my idea,
                of course, but my parents' idea of
                a good time) over this very point.

                I got the highest grades on everything,
                even higher than the minister's son,
                but the minister was always trying
                to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                the margins of my essays, that
                intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                necessary in order to have any kind
                of relationship with Spirit.

                And I agree with you about everything
                else you just said. Was Paul paying
                Rebazar $160.00 a year?

                How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

                And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

                It's funny that you mention connecting
                the dots.

                That is when I began to discover the
                books we weren't supposed to know
                about. In the nineties I was trying to
                connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                least 5,000 years B.C.

                And by doing so, I was also researching
                "EK" and "HU" throughout history.

                Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

                I think it is just a big psychological
                circus that takes place, say, for an
                example, at a major seminar. People
                get all psychologically open to auto-
                suggestion.

                If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                If not, it is because the chela has not
                been doing his or her "homework."

                Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

                Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

                Harold can dish it out both ways.
                And eat the cake himself.

                Again, just like with most religions,
                people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                fear, not just fear of the "consequences",
                but fear of the unknown - something
                they are supposed to be conquering
                BECAUSE of Eckankar!

                They can't because they are clinging
                to the known world. Their little world
                of "Super Normal" people.

                With alot of these people, most or
                all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.

                What would they think? And the
                idea of letting others "below" or
                "beneath" them passing them up
                in "initiations"!

                What could be worse than that?

                Or being "demoted" as a person
                in any way?

                They give all their power to the
                heirarchy.

                They are powerless to help themselves.
                Not really, of course, but it is psychological.

                Whatever happened to power,
                wisdom and freedom?

                The answer, my friend, is blowing
                in the wind.

                But you knew that!



                prometheus wrote:

                Hello All,
                Thanks for sharing your
                comments and the info
                about these books!

                As far as "transcending
                religion" it seems that this
                is what we thought we were
                doing when we joined the
                "path" of Eckankar way back
                when.

                Early on, Eckankar seemed
                to have a certain mystique
                about it. The reality, now,
                is that it was never what we
                imagined or desired. This
                PT/HK consciousness is based
                upon delusions, lies, and
                manipulations frozen
                in time as meaningless and
                imagined experiences and
                dreams via Klemp's over-
                simplified and mind numbing
                hypnotic message. This is
                the "real" reason people fall
                asleep during his talks! And,
                there's No spiritual meat
                (protein)!

                The Eckankar message is
                merely a redundancy and
                regurgitation of empty 2nd
                and 4th Plane thoughts and
                words.

                PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                Westernized rewrite of the
                Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                once borrowed and plagiarized
                (compiled) from Sant Mat
                religions (etc.), and from
                more knowledgeable/
                enlightened people by
                the trickster Twitchell.

                HK's EK "path" has not only
                become Christianized, but
                has also been exposed as
                just another "Feel Good"
                religious sect that preaches
                one thing and does another!
                It's a Codependent scam!

                Thus, the Klemps' egos
                are feeling pretty good
                right now and the "trickle-
                down effect" is still sustaining
                their EK followers/sheep/
                chickens in the same ways
                as other religions work their
                magic on the numb, dumb,
                fearful, and superstitious
                masses.

                Still, for Eckists who think
                they can see beyond the
                veil/void it's amazing to
                see that they are quite
                incapable of true change
                and of discovering the
                real path of TRUTH, and
                of experiencing the art
                of the obvious.

                Truth has escaped these
                Eckists and they will forever
                remain a pawn of the KAL
                and under Klemp's trance
                of providing "sales service."

                This, of course, benefits HK's
                selfish motives, and, on the
                other hand, it helps to give
                Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                This is why Klemp feels he
                is doing no harm since it
                provides of service for lost
                Souls until they become advanced
                enough to realize they don't
                need a middleman.

                However, the "catch" lies
                within the promises made
                and the innate desire of
                soul to "Know" God and to
                return Home again. Eckankar
                manipulates this desire with
                "initiations" that are turned
                into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                However, Not Desiring Initiations
                (via a pure heart) is another
                trap/test that has merely been
                disguised while the "desire"
                remains hidden from outer
                sight. Thus, it seems to be
                okay to "imagine" (and still
                desire) higher initiations on
                the "INNER" via the ruse of
                needing a Mahanta for more
                and more of these fake initiations
                in order to expand consciousness
                for more and more spiritual
                progress.

                Eckists are chasing their tails
                via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                rendition of circular logic and
                thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                is training Eckists to become
                more and more Codependent
                upon the Mahanta and their
                desires and attachments?

                Look at the ECK stories... they
                all require the intercession and
                help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                via self-hypnosis and programming,
                (attachment) are being taught
                to call upon the Mahanta for
                anything and everything.. . but
                where is Soul and where is the
                ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                one mouthes certain "charged"
                4th Plane words or thinks he/
                she is "detached" doesn't make
                it so!

                What's interesting is that these
                two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                don't require money in order
                to maintain (outer and Inner
                initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                needed! This is what structured
                (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                order to control groups of people.
                I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                don't want to see the correlation
                and connect-the- dots.

                Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                the-dots? It probably has to do
                with their feelings of being "Superior
                Normal" and the delusion that
                gives them "all the answers" in
                order to alleviate their doubts
                and fears. The ego makes a better
                servant than it does a master,
                but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                ego from Soul.

                Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                What has Klemp been teaching
                his followers since he's been
                in charge?

                Prometheus

                realbizarretarzs wrote:

                So true. I really enjoyed your
                experiment.

                I used to do that sort of stuff
                until it became more sad than
                amusing.

                Also, a while back, I forgot
                to mention the books of
                Alan Watts, starting with
                "The Way of Zen" and
                "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                The second title, of course,
                is a paradox, but one that
                makes sense without having
                to go too far into the book
                to see what he is talking about.

                One doesn't have to be necessarily
                into Zen or even Buddhism to
                understand where he was coming
                from.

                His books are very easy to read
                and are somewhat humorous.

                Interestingly, he obtained
                a master's degree in theology
                and "divinity" but went on to
                write twenty to thirty books
                on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                philosophies, and the psychology
                of religion, and the importance
                of mysticism insofar as the
                individual transcending man-
                made religion.

                whitemoby wrote:

                Truth can never by systemized,
                no matter how eloquently.

                Moby

                Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                after following instructions
                to the letter, but not losing
                his intuition, begins to question
                everything, and comes to
                see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                favorite or not-so-favorite
                community Utopia) as a kind
                of ivory tower, oblivious to
                real life, and thus, reality.

                He begins to realize that,
                after many years, and many
                relationships, Castilia is a
                self-protected society that
                does little, if anything, for
                the world outside its borders,
                and is burderned by a hierarchy
                of personalities and games
                people play.

                I won't reveal any more than
                this, in case someone is
                currently reading "Magister
                Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                but I will say this - throughout
                the whole story, Bruce Willis
                is dead.

                What?!?

                No, actually, the truth seeker,
                Knecht (which, in German,
                means servant and/or knight)
                (or so the Germans would have
                us believe) is, to the dumb-
                foundment of his "superiors",
                really looking for truth.

                No substitutes.

                I hope I didn't give away too
                much, as the book is almost
                600 pages long, but, actually,
                I haven't, because there is
                so much truth in the story
                that everytime I re-read it,
                I realize something new.

                I know we used to say that
                about certain ECK books
                (before Harold) but the
                stuff that Paul took from
                others is timeless as well.

                What was kind of amusing
                is that when I read the book
                the first time, Darwin was
                the "Master."

                One of the first main characters
                in the story is the "Music Master."


                prometheus wrote:

                Here's a review from Amazon.com
                of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                It is no less than the highest
                reason that an entire future
                civilization exists. It is the
                grand and ongoing synthesis
                of all knowledge into a unified,
                integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                It is an attempt to forge a
                holographic intellectual world
                where all is interconnected and
                reflected in every part. This is
                a mission to weave the golden
                thread of significance and meaning
                through every part of a culture-
                science and the arts and the
                spiritual are all unified into a
                system of concentric, interpenetrating
                rings.

                All this is primarily accomplished
                by using the language of music
                and mathematics as common
                universal symbolism (the "glass
                beads" are part of a symbolic
                physical aid that was once used
                for this purpose.)

                It is no wonder that the book
                places the first origins of the
                game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                that the League of Journeyers
                to the East also figure prominently
                in its development. To some
                extent the Game has been the
                goal of all sensitive and introspective
                individuals and groups down
                through the ages.

                All of this stands in stark contrast
                to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                where all knowledge, all culture,
                is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                largely meaningless babble.

                The crisis that develops from
                this is that even if you accomplish
                this grand synthesis in some isolated
                ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                It is necessary to reach out to the
                entire society once it is achieved
                in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                attempts to enlighten the rest of
                mankind instead of individually
                passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                society must be made whole and
                sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                This is the realization that comes
                even to the Magister Ludi, the
                Master of the Game.

                For the game to be ultimately
                meaningful we have to coach
                everyone to eventually become
                Masters."

                **********************************

                Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                outflow principle) be accomplished without
                the religious strings attached? Not by
                Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                to their membership donations or else
                they can lose initiations!

                Prometheus
              • Rebazar Tarzs
                You re right. Maybe Rebazar died and Harold was afraid to talk about it.   After all, he still hasn t mentioned the death of the 972nd Mahanta!          
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  You're right. Maybe Rebazar died and Harold was afraid to talk about it.
                   
                  After all, he still hasn't mentioned the death of the 972nd Mahanta!
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   


                  --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 9:42 PM

                   
                  Hello All,
                  In the Catholic Church there
                  are all types within the "spiritual
                  hierarchy" that can intercede
                  with God on the behalf of man.
                  Twitchell and Klemp merely
                  copied this as well and added
                  EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                  http://www.catholic .org/encyclopedi a/view.php? id=6146

                  The thing about doing research
                  on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                  version (with "c" added) along
                  with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                  more than 50 years ago!

                  This No Contact is strange
                  (not really) since Rebazar has
                  been around for 500 years, in
                  the same physical body, and
                  even sailed with Columbus
                  (according to Klemp)!

                  Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                  mentioning REBAZAR (the
                  Torchbearer) by name nor
                  is there anything written by
                  RT (in his own hand) for 500
                  years!

                  And, since Rebazar does
                  (supposedly) have a 500
                  year old physical body why
                  didn't he show up before and
                  after Twit died versus Gail
                  having to use a dream from
                  Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?

                  Why hasn't RT shown up at
                  an EK Seminar in all of these
                  years and given a talk? Is he
                  too good for that?

                  If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                  isn't too good or too "high"
                  to give a Seminar talk why
                  can't Rebazar appear and
                  give one too? He is a physical
                  being, still! Thus, RT should
                  be expected to show up every
                  now and then. But... he hasn't
                  ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                  dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                  it because he pissed HK off by
                  never showing up at an EK Seminar!

                  Prometheus

                  realbizarretarzs wrote:

                  Hi there!

                  The intercession part is the
                  part I really don't understand!

                  Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                  and the previously published short
                  articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                  Free," I was at odds with my
                  Presbyterian minister while taking
                  confirmation classes (not my idea,
                  of course, but my parents' idea of
                  a good time) over this very point.

                  I got the highest grades on everything,
                  even higher than the minister's son,
                  but the minister was always trying
                  to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                  the margins of my essays, that
                  intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                  necessary in order to have any kind
                  of relationship with Spirit.

                  And I agree with you about everything
                  else you just said. Was Paul paying
                  Rebazar $160.00 a year?

                  How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

                  And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

                  It's funny that you mention connecting
                  the dots.

                  That is when I began to discover the
                  books we weren't supposed to know
                  about. In the nineties I was trying to
                  connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                  of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                  least 5,000 years B.C.

                  And by doing so, I was also researching
                  "EK" and "HU" throughout history.

                  Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

                  I think it is just a big psychological
                  circus that takes place, say, for an
                  example, at a major seminar. People
                  get all psychologically open to auto-
                  suggestion.

                  If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                  If not, it is because the chela has not
                  been doing his or her "homework."

                  Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

                  Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

                  Harold can dish it out both ways.
                  And eat the cake himself.

                  Again, just like with most religions,
                  people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                  fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                  but fear of the unknown - something
                  they are supposed to be conquering
                  BECAUSE of Eckankar!

                  They can't because they are clinging
                  to the known world. Their little world
                  of "Super Normal" people.

                  With alot of these people, most or
                  all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.

                  What would they think? And the
                  idea of letting others "below" or
                  "beneath" them passing them up
                  in "initiations" !

                  What could be worse than that?

                  Or being "demoted" as a person
                  in any way?

                  They give all their power to the
                  heirarchy.

                  They are powerless to help themselves.
                  Not really, of course, but it is psychological.

                  Whatever happened to power,
                  wisdom and freedom?

                  The answer, my friend, is blowing
                  in the wind.

                  But you knew that!



                  prometheus wrote:

                  Hello All,
                  Thanks for sharing your
                  comments and the info
                  about these books!

                  As far as "transcending
                  religion" it seems that this
                  is what we thought we were
                  doing when we joined the
                  "path" of Eckankar way back
                  when.

                  Early on, Eckankar seemed
                  to have a certain mystique
                  about it. The reality, now,
                  is that it was never what we
                  imagined or desired. This
                  PT/HK consciousness is based
                  upon delusions, lies, and
                  manipulations frozen
                  in time as meaningless and
                  imagined experiences and
                  dreams via Klemp's over-
                  simplified and mind numbing
                  hypnotic message. This is
                  the "real" reason people fall
                  asleep during his talks! And,
                  there's No spiritual meat
                  (protein)!

                  The Eckankar message is
                  merely a redundancy and
                  regurgitation of empty 2nd
                  and 4th Plane thoughts and
                  words.

                  PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                  Westernized rewrite of the
                  Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                  once borrowed and plagiarized
                  (compiled) from Sant Mat
                  religions (etc.), and from
                  more knowledgeable/
                  enlightened people by
                  the trickster Twitchell.

                  HK's EK "path" has not only
                  become Christianized, but
                  has also been exposed as
                  just another "Feel Good"
                  religious sect that preaches
                  one thing and does another!
                  It's a Codependent scam!

                  Thus, the Klemps' egos
                  are feeling pretty good
                  right now and the "trickle-
                  down effect" is still sustaining
                  their EK followers/sheep/
                  chickens in the same ways
                  as other religions work their
                  magic on the numb, dumb,
                  fearful, and superstitious
                  masses.

                  Still, for Eckists who think
                  they can see beyond the
                  veil/void it's amazing to
                  see that they are quite
                  incapable of true change
                  and of discovering the
                  real path of TRUTH, and
                  of experiencing the art
                  of the obvious.

                  Truth has escaped these
                  Eckists and they will forever
                  remain a pawn of the KAL
                  and under Klemp's trance
                  of providing "sales service."

                  This, of course, benefits HK's
                  selfish motives, and, on the
                  other hand, it helps to give
                  Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                  This is why Klemp feels he
                  is doing no harm since it
                  provides of service for lost
                  Souls until they become advanced
                  enough to realize they don't
                  need a middleman.

                  However, the "catch" lies
                  within the promises made
                  and the innate desire of
                  soul to "Know" God and to
                  return Home again. Eckankar
                  manipulates this desire with
                  "initiations" that are turned
                  into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                  However, Not Desiring Initiations
                  (via a pure heart) is another
                  trap/test that has merely been
                  disguised while the "desire"
                  remains hidden from outer
                  sight. Thus, it seems to be
                  okay to "imagine" (and still
                  desire) higher initiations on
                  the "INNER" via the ruse of
                  needing a Mahanta for more
                  and more of these fake initiations
                  in order to expand consciousness
                  for more and more spiritual
                  progress.

                  Eckists are chasing their tails
                  via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                  rendition of circular logic and
                  thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                  and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                  in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                  is training Eckists to become
                  more and more Codependent
                  upon the Mahanta and their
                  desires and attachments?

                  Look at the ECK stories... they
                  all require the intercession and
                  help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                  via self-hypnosis and programming,
                  (attachment) are being taught
                  to call upon the Mahanta for
                  anything and everything.. . but
                  where is Soul and where is the
                  ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                  one mouthes certain "charged"
                  4th Plane words or thinks he/
                  she is "detached" doesn't make
                  it so!

                  What's interesting is that these
                  two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                  don't require money in order
                  to maintain (outer and Inner
                  initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                  but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                  needed! This is what structured
                  (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                  order to control groups of people.
                  I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                  don't want to see the correlation
                  and connect-the- dots.

                  Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                  the-dots? It probably has to do
                  with their feelings of being "Superior
                  Normal" and the delusion that
                  gives them "all the answers" in
                  order to alleviate their doubts
                  and fears. The ego makes a better
                  servant than it does a master,
                  but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                  hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                  ego from Soul.

                  Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                  (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                  writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                  H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                  What has Klemp been teaching
                  his followers since he's been
                  in charge?

                  Prometheus

                  realbizarretarzs wrote:

                  So true. I really enjoyed your
                  experiment.

                  I used to do that sort of stuff
                  until it became more sad than
                  amusing.

                  Also, a while back, I forgot
                  to mention the books of
                  Alan Watts, starting with
                  "The Way of Zen" and
                  "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                  The second title, of course,
                  is a paradox, but one that
                  makes sense without having
                  to go too far into the book
                  to see what he is talking about.

                  One doesn't have to be necessarily
                  into Zen or even Buddhism to
                  understand where he was coming
                  from.

                  His books are very easy to read
                  and are somewhat humorous.

                  Interestingly, he obtained
                  a master's degree in theology
                  and "divinity" but went on to
                  write twenty to thirty books
                  on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                  philosophies, and the psychology
                  of religion, and the importance
                  of mysticism insofar as the
                  individual transcending man-
                  made religion.

                  whitemoby wrote:

                  Truth can never by systemized,
                  no matter how eloquently.

                  Moby

                  Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                  In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                  after following instructions
                  to the letter, but not losing
                  his intuition, begins to question
                  everything, and comes to
                  see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                  favorite or not-so-favorite
                  community Utopia) as a kind
                  of ivory tower, oblivious to
                  real life, and thus, reality.

                  He begins to realize that,
                  after many years, and many
                  relationships, Castilia is a
                  self-protected society that
                  does little, if anything, for
                  the world outside its borders,
                  and is burderned by a hierarchy
                  of personalities and games
                  people play.

                  I won't reveal any more than
                  this, in case someone is
                  currently reading "Magister
                  Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                  but I will say this - throughout
                  the whole story, Bruce Willis
                  is dead.

                  What?!?

                  No, actually, the truth seeker,
                  Knecht (which, in German,
                  means servant and/or knight)
                  (or so the Germans would have
                  us believe) is, to the dumb-
                  foundment of his "superiors",
                  really looking for truth.

                  No substitutes.

                  I hope I didn't give away too
                  much, as the book is almost
                  600 pages long, but, actually,
                  I haven't, because there is
                  so much truth in the story
                  that everytime I re-read it,
                  I realize something new.

                  I know we used to say that
                  about certain ECK books
                  (before Harold) but the
                  stuff that Paul took from
                  others is timeless as well.

                  What was kind of amusing
                  is that when I read the book
                  the first time, Darwin was
                  the "Master."

                  One of the first main characters
                  in the story is the "Music Master."

                  prometheus wrote:

                  Here's a review from Amazon.com
                  of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                  "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                  It is no less than the highest
                  reason that an entire future
                  civilization exists. It is the
                  grand and ongoing synthesis
                  of all knowledge into a unified,
                  integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                  It is an attempt to forge a
                  holographic intellectual world
                  where all is interconnected and
                  reflected in every part. This is
                  a mission to weave the golden
                  thread of significance and meaning
                  through every part of a culture-
                  science and the arts and the
                  spiritual are all unified into a
                  system of concentric, interpenetrating
                  rings.

                  All this is primarily accomplished
                  by using the language of music
                  and mathematics as common
                  universal symbolism (the "glass
                  beads" are part of a symbolic
                  physical aid that was once used
                  for this purpose.)

                  It is no wonder that the book
                  places the first origins of the
                  game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                  and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                  that the League of Journeyers
                  to the East also figure prominently
                  in its development. To some
                  extent the Game has been the
                  goal of all sensitive and introspective
                  individuals and groups down
                  through the ages.

                  All of this stands in stark contrast
                  to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                  where all knowledge, all culture,
                  is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                  largely meaningless babble.

                  The crisis that develops from
                  this is that even if you accomplish
                  this grand synthesis in some isolated
                  ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                  contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                  It is necessary to reach out to the
                  entire society once it is achieved
                  in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                  attempts to enlighten the rest of
                  mankind instead of individually
                  passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                  society must be made whole and
                  sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                  This is the realization that comes
                  even to the Magister Ludi, the
                  Master of the Game.

                  For the game to be ultimately
                  meaningful we have to coach
                  everyone to eventually become
                  Masters."

                  ************ ********* ********* ****

                  Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                  Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                  outflow principle) be accomplished without
                  the religious strings attached? Not by
                  Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                  to their membership donations or else
                  they can lose initiations!

                  Prometheus


                • prometheus_973
                  Hello All, Do you think Klemp will mention that Darwin died at this up coming Seminar? If Rebazar died, as well, maybe that will be the excuse to make Joan an
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello All,
                    Do you think Klemp will
                    mention that Darwin died
                    at this up coming Seminar?

                    If Rebazar died, as well,
                    maybe that will be the
                    excuse to make Joan an
                    EK Master... to take
                    Rebazar's place! Or,
                    would she finally be
                    taking Darwin's place?

                    BTW - I found a new way
                    that Klemp and Company
                    can make more money.

                    http://www.saintsforsinners.com/medalsgallery.html

                    This site is "Saints for Sinners"
                    where people can buy a medallion
                    with their favorite Saint painted
                    upon it. All Eckankar has to do
                    is substitute the EK Masters for
                    the Saints... like Twitchell did!
                    Anyway, I'm sure that every Eckist
                    would buy a Rebazar Medallion
                    for whatever the cost!

                    Prometheus


                    realbizarretarzs wrote:

                    You're right. Maybe Rebazar
                    died and Harold was afraid
                    to talk about it.

                    After all, he still hasn't mentioned
                    the death of the 972nd Mahanta!


                    prometheus wrote:

                    > Hello All,
                    > In the Catholic Church there
                    > are all types within the "spiritual
                    > hierarchy" that can intercede
                    > with God on the behalf of man.
                    > Twitchell and Klemp merely
                    > copied this as well and added
                    > EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                    http://www.catholic .org/encyclopedi a/view.php? id=6146

                    > The thing about doing research
                    > on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                    > version (with "c" added) along
                    > with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                    > more than 50 years ago!
                    >
                    > This No Contact is strange
                    > (not really) since Rebazar has
                    > been around for 500 years, in
                    > the same physical body, and
                    > even sailed with Columbus
                    > (according to Klemp)!
                    >
                    > Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                    > mentioning REBAZAR (the
                    > Torchbearer) by name nor
                    > is there anything written by
                    > RT (in his own hand) for 500
                    > years!
                    >
                    > And, since Rebazar does
                    > (supposedly) have a 500
                    > year old physical body why
                    > didn't he show up before and
                    > after Twit died versus Gail
                    > having to use a dream from
                    > Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?
                    >
                    > Why hasn't RT shown up at
                    > an EK Seminar in all of these
                    > years and given a talk? Is he
                    > too good for that?
                    >
                    > If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                    > isn't too good or too "high"
                    > to give a Seminar talk why
                    > can't Rebazar appear and
                    > give one too? He is a physical
                    > being, still! Thus, RT should
                    > be expected to show up every
                    > now and then. But... he hasn't
                    > ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                    > dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                    > it because he pissed HK off by
                    > never showing up at an EK Seminar!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi there!
                    >
                    > The intercession part is the
                    > part I really don't understand!
                    >
                    > Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                    > and the previously published short
                    > articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                    > Free," I was at odds with my
                    > Presbyterian minister while taking
                    > confirmation classes (not my idea,
                    > of course, but my parents' idea of
                    > a good time) over this very point.
                    >
                    > I got the highest grades on everything,
                    > even higher than the minister's son,
                    > but the minister was always trying
                    > to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                    > the margins of my essays, that
                    > intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                    > necessary in order to have any kind
                    > of relationship with Spirit.
                    >
                    > And I agree with you about everything
                    > else you just said. Was Paul paying
                    > Rebazar $160.00 a year?
                    >
                    > How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                    >
                    > And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                    >
                    > It's funny that you mention connecting
                    > the dots.
                    >
                    > That is when I began to discover the
                    > books we weren't supposed to know
                    > about. In the nineties I was trying to
                    > connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                    > of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                    > least 5,000 years B.C.
                    >
                    > And by doing so, I was also researching
                    > "EK" and "HU" throughout history.
                    >
                    > Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                    >
                    > I think it is just a big psychological
                    > circus that takes place, say, for an
                    > example, at a major seminar. People
                    > get all psychologically open to auto-
                    > suggestion.
                    >
                    > If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                    > If not, it is because the chela has not
                    > been doing his or her "homework."
                    >
                    > Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                    >
                    > Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                    >
                    > Harold can dish it out both ways.
                    > And eat the cake himself.
                    >
                    > Again, just like with most religions,
                    > people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                    > fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                    > but fear of the unknown - something
                    > they are supposed to be conquering
                    > BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                    >
                    > They can't because they are clinging
                    > to the known world. Their little world
                    > of "Super Normal" people.
                    >
                    > With alot of these people, most or
                    > all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.
                    >
                    > What would they think? And the
                    > idea of letting others "below" or
                    > "beneath" them passing them up
                    > in "initiations" !
                    >
                    > What could be worse than that?
                    >
                    > Or being "demoted" as a person
                    > in any way?
                    >
                    > They give all their power to the
                    > heirarchy.
                    >
                    > They are powerless to help themselves.
                    > Not really, of course, but it is psychological.
                    >
                    > Whatever happened to power,
                    > wisdom and freedom?
                    >
                    > The answer, my friend, is blowing
                    > in the wind.
                    >
                    > But you knew that!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    > Thanks for sharing your
                    > comments and the info
                    > about these books!
                    >
                    > As far as "transcending
                    > religion" it seems that this
                    > is what we thought we were
                    > doing when we joined the
                    > "path" of Eckankar way back
                    > when.
                    >
                    > Early on, Eckankar seemed
                    > to have a certain mystique
                    > about it. The reality, now,
                    > is that it was never what we
                    > imagined or desired. This
                    > PT/HK consciousness is based
                    > upon delusions, lies, and
                    > manipulations frozen
                    > in time as meaningless and
                    > imagined experiences and
                    > dreams via Klemp's over-
                    > simplified and mind numbing
                    > hypnotic message. This is
                    > the "real" reason people fall
                    > asleep during his talks! And,
                    > there's No spiritual meat
                    > (protein)!
                    >
                    > The Eckankar message is
                    > merely a redundancy and
                    > regurgitation of empty 2nd
                    > and 4th Plane thoughts and
                    > words.
                    >
                    > PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                    > Westernized rewrite of the
                    > Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                    > once borrowed and plagiarized
                    > (compiled) from Sant Mat
                    > religions (etc.), and from
                    > more knowledgeable/
                    > enlightened people by
                    > the trickster Twitchell.
                    >
                    > HK's EK "path" has not only
                    > become Christianized, but
                    > has also been exposed as
                    > just another "Feel Good"
                    > religious sect that preaches
                    > one thing and does another!
                    > It's a Codependent scam!
                    >
                    > Thus, the Klemps' egos
                    > are feeling pretty good
                    > right now and the "trickle-
                    > down effect" is still sustaining
                    > their EK followers/sheep/
                    > chickens in the same ways
                    > as other religions work their
                    > magic on the numb, dumb,
                    > fearful, and superstitious
                    > masses.
                    >
                    > Still, for Eckists who think
                    > they can see beyond the
                    > veil/void it's amazing to
                    > see that they are quite
                    > incapable of true change
                    > and of discovering the
                    > real path of TRUTH, and
                    > of experiencing the art
                    > of the obvious.
                    >
                    > Truth has escaped these
                    > Eckists and they will forever
                    > remain a pawn of the KAL
                    > and under Klemp's trance
                    > of providing "sales service."
                    >
                    > This, of course, benefits HK's
                    > selfish motives, and, on the
                    > other hand, it helps to give
                    > Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                    > This is why Klemp feels he
                    > is doing no harm since it
                    > provides of service for lost
                    > Souls until they become advanced
                    > enough to realize they don't
                    > need a middleman.
                    >
                    > However, the "catch" lies
                    > within the promises made
                    > and the innate desire of
                    > soul to "Know" God and to
                    > return Home again. Eckankar
                    > manipulates this desire with
                    > "initiations" that are turned
                    > into a KAL "Trap/Test."
                    >
                    > However, Not Desiring Initiations
                    > (via a pure heart) is another
                    > trap/test that has merely been
                    > disguised while the "desire"
                    > remains hidden from outer
                    > sight. Thus, it seems to be
                    > okay to "imagine" (and still
                    > desire) higher initiations on
                    > the "INNER" via the ruse of
                    > needing a Mahanta for more
                    > and more of these fake initiations
                    > in order to expand consciousness
                    > for more and more spiritual
                    > progress.
                    >
                    > Eckists are chasing their tails
                    > via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                    > rendition of circular logic and
                    > thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                    > and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                    > in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                    > is training Eckists to become
                    > more and more Codependent
                    > upon the Mahanta and their
                    > desires and attachments?
                    >
                    > Look at the ECK stories... they
                    > all require the intercession and
                    > help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                    > via self-hypnosis and programming,
                    > (attachment) are being taught
                    > to call upon the Mahanta for
                    > anything and everything.. . but
                    > where is Soul and where is the
                    > ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                    > one mouthes certain "charged"
                    > 4th Plane words or thinks he/
                    > she is "detached" doesn't make
                    > it so!
                    >
                    > What's interesting is that these
                    > two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                    > don't require money in order
                    > to maintain (outer and Inner
                    > initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                    > but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                    > needed! This is what structured
                    > (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                    > order to control groups of people.
                    > I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                    > don't want to see the correlation
                    > and connect-the- dots.
                    >
                    > Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                    > the-dots? It probably has to do
                    > with their feelings of being "Superior
                    > Normal" and the delusion that
                    > gives them "all the answers" in
                    > order to alleviate their doubts
                    > and fears. The ego makes a better
                    > servant than it does a master,
                    > but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                    > hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                    > ego from Soul.
                    >
                    > Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                    > (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                    > writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                    > H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                    > What has Klemp been teaching
                    > his followers since he's been
                    > in charge?
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                    >
                    > So true. I really enjoyed your
                    > experiment.
                    >
                    > I used to do that sort of stuff
                    > until it became more sad than
                    > amusing.
                    >
                    > Also, a while back, I forgot
                    > to mention the books of
                    > Alan Watts, starting with
                    > "The Way of Zen" and
                    > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                    >
                    > The second title, of course,
                    > is a paradox, but one that
                    > makes sense without having
                    > to go too far into the book
                    > to see what he is talking about.
                    >
                    > One doesn't have to be necessarily
                    > into Zen or even Buddhism to
                    > understand where he was coming
                    > from.
                    >
                    > His books are very easy to read
                    > and are somewhat humorous.
                    >
                    > Interestingly, he obtained
                    > a master's degree in theology
                    > and "divinity" but went on to
                    > write twenty to thirty books
                    > on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                    > philosophies, and the psychology
                    > of religion, and the importance
                    > of mysticism insofar as the
                    > individual transcending man-
                    > made religion.
                    >
                    > whitemoby wrote:
                    >
                    > Truth can never by systemized,
                    > no matter how eloquently.
                    >
                    > Moby
                    >
                    > Rebazar Tarzs wrote:
                    >
                    > In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                    > after following instructions
                    > to the letter, but not losing
                    > his intuition, begins to question
                    > everything, and comes to
                    > see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                    > favorite or not-so-favorite
                    > community Utopia) as a kind
                    > of ivory tower, oblivious to
                    > real life, and thus, reality.
                    >
                    > He begins to realize that,
                    > after many years, and many
                    > relationships, Castilia is a
                    > self-protected society that
                    > does little, if anything, for
                    > the world outside its borders,
                    > and is burderned by a hierarchy
                    > of personalities and games
                    > people play.
                    >
                    > I won't reveal any more than
                    > this, in case someone is
                    > currently reading "Magister
                    > Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                    > but I will say this - throughout
                    > the whole story, Bruce Willis
                    > is dead.
                    >
                    > What?!?
                    >
                    > No, actually, the truth seeker,
                    > Knecht (which, in German,
                    > means servant and/or knight)
                    > (or so the Germans would have
                    > us believe) is, to the dumb-
                    > foundment of his "superiors",
                    > really looking for truth.
                    >
                    > No substitutes.
                    >
                    > I hope I didn't give away too
                    > much, as the book is almost
                    > 600 pages long, but, actually,
                    > I haven't, because there is
                    > so much truth in the story
                    > that everytime I re-read it,
                    > I realize something new.
                    >
                    > I know we used to say that
                    > about certain ECK books
                    > (before Harold) but the
                    > stuff that Paul took from
                    > others is timeless as well.
                    >
                    > What was kind of amusing
                    > is that when I read the book
                    > the first time, Darwin was
                    > the "Master."
                    >
                    > One of the first main characters
                    > in the story is the "Music Master."
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                    > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                    >
                    > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                    > It is no less than the highest
                    > reason that an entire future
                    > civilization exists. It is the
                    > grand and ongoing synthesis
                    > of all knowledge into a unified,
                    > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                    >
                    > It is an attempt to forge a
                    > holographic intellectual world
                    > where all is interconnected and
                    > reflected in every part. This is
                    > a mission to weave the golden
                    > thread of significance and meaning
                    > through every part of a culture-
                    > science and the arts and the
                    > spiritual are all unified into a
                    > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                    > rings.
                    >
                    > All this is primarily accomplished
                    > by using the language of music
                    > and mathematics as common
                    > universal symbolism (the "glass
                    > beads" are part of a symbolic
                    > physical aid that was once used
                    > for this purpose.)
                    >
                    > It is no wonder that the book
                    > places the first origins of the
                    > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                    > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                    > that the League of Journeyers
                    > to the East also figure prominently
                    > in its development. To some
                    > extent the Game has been the
                    > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                    > individuals and groups down
                    > through the ages.
                    >
                    > All of this stands in stark contrast
                    > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                    > where all knowledge, all culture,
                    > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                    > largely meaningless babble.
                    >
                    > The crisis that develops from
                    > this is that even if you accomplish
                    > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                    > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                    > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                    >
                    > It is necessary to reach out to the
                    > entire society once it is achieved
                    > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                    > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                    > mankind instead of individually
                    > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                    > society must be made whole and
                    > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                    >
                    > This is the realization that comes
                    > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                    > Master of the Game.
                    >
                    > For the game to be ultimately
                    > meaningful we have to coach
                    > everyone to eventually become
                    > Masters."
                    >
                    **********************************
                    >
                    > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                    > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                    > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                    > the religious strings attached? Not by
                    > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                    > to their membership donations or else
                    > they can lose initiations!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                  • Rebazar Tarzs
                    I am surprised that Harold hasn t already announced the ascension of Rebazar into whatever plane and/or wisdom temple already,  because that would get the 500
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 13, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I am surprised that Harold hasn't already announced the
                      ascension of Rebazar into whatever plane and/or wisdom temple
                      already,  because that would get the 500 Plus Year OId Man
                      thing out of his hair. 
                       
                      That would make Reb just another past master, one that no one can
                      prove did not exist.
                       
                      The EK Master medallion is a great idea.
                       
                      Are they waiting for the price of fool's gold to come down?   

                      --- On Tue, 10/13/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 6:14 AM

                       
                      Hello All,
                      Do you think Klemp will
                      mention that Darwin died
                      at this up coming Seminar?

                      If Rebazar died, as well,
                      maybe that will be the
                      excuse to make Joan an
                      EK Master... to take
                      Rebazar's place! Or,
                      would she finally be
                      taking Darwin's place?

                      BTW - I found a new way
                      that Klemp and Company
                      can make more money.

                      http://www.saintsfo rsinners. com/medalsgaller y.html

                      This site is "Saints for Sinners"
                      where people can buy a medallion
                      with their favorite Saint painted
                      upon it. All Eckankar has to do
                      is substitute the EK Masters for
                      the Saints... like Twitchell did!
                      Anyway, I'm sure that every Eckist
                      would buy a Rebazar Medallion
                      for whatever the cost!

                      Prometheus

                      realbizarretarzs wrote:

                      You're right. Maybe Rebazar
                      died and Harold was afraid
                      to talk about it.

                      After all, he still hasn't mentioned
                      the death of the 972nd Mahanta!


                      prometheus wrote:

                      > Hello All,
                      > In the Catholic Church there
                      > are all types within the "spiritual
                      > hierarchy" that can intercede
                      > with God on the behalf of man.
                      > Twitchell and Klemp merely
                      > copied this as well and added
                      > EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                      http://www.catholic .org/encyclopedi a/view.php? id=6146

                      > The thing about doing research
                      > on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                      > version (with "c" added) along
                      > with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                      > more than 50 years ago!
                      >
                      > This No Contact is strange
                      > (not really) since Rebazar has
                      > been around for 500 years, in
                      > the same physical body, and
                      > even sailed with Columbus
                      > (according to Klemp)!
                      >
                      > Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                      > mentioning REBAZAR (the
                      > Torchbearer) by name nor
                      > is there anything written by
                      > RT (in his own hand) for 500
                      > years!
                      >
                      > And, since Rebazar does
                      > (supposedly) have a 500
                      > year old physical body why
                      > didn't he show up before and
                      > after Twit died versus Gail
                      > having to use a dream from
                      > Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?
                      >
                      > Why hasn't RT shown up at
                      > an EK Seminar in all of these
                      > years and given a talk? Is he
                      > too good for that?
                      >
                      > If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                      > isn't too good or too "high"
                      > to give a Seminar talk why
                      > can't Rebazar appear and
                      > give one too? He is a physical
                      > being, still! Thus, RT should
                      > be expected to show up every
                      > now and then. But... he hasn't
                      > ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                      > dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                      > it because he pissed HK off by
                      > never showing up at an EK Seminar!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi there!
                      >
                      > The intercession part is the
                      > part I really don't understand!
                      >
                      > Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                      > and the previously published short
                      > articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                      > Free," I was at odds with my
                      > Presbyterian minister while taking
                      > confirmation classes (not my idea,
                      > of course, but my parents' idea of
                      > a good time) over this very point.
                      >
                      > I got the highest grades on everything,
                      > even higher than the minister's son,
                      > but the minister was always trying
                      > to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                      > the margins of my essays, that
                      > intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                      > necessary in order to have any kind
                      > of relationship with Spirit.
                      >
                      > And I agree with you about everything
                      > else you just said. Was Paul paying
                      > Rebazar $160.00 a year?
                      >
                      > How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                      >
                      > And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                      >
                      > It's funny that you mention connecting
                      > the dots.
                      >
                      > That is when I began to discover the
                      > books we weren't supposed to know
                      > about. In the nineties I was trying to
                      > connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                      > of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                      > least 5,000 years B.C.
                      >
                      > And by doing so, I was also researching
                      > "EK" and "HU" throughout history.
                      >
                      > Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                      >
                      > I think it is just a big psychological
                      > circus that takes place, say, for an
                      > example, at a major seminar. People
                      > get all psychologically open to auto-
                      > suggestion.
                      >
                      > If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                      > If not, it is because the chela has not
                      > been doing his or her "homework."
                      >
                      > Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                      >
                      > Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                      >
                      > Harold can dish it out both ways.
                      > And eat the cake himself.
                      >
                      > Again, just like with most religions,
                      > people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                      > fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                      > but fear of the unknown - something
                      > they are supposed to be conquering
                      > BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                      >
                      > They can't because they are clinging
                      > to the known world. Their little world
                      > of "Super Normal" people.
                      >
                      > With alot of these people, most or
                      > all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.
                      >
                      > What would they think? And the
                      > idea of letting others "below" or
                      > "beneath" them passing them up
                      > in "initiations" !
                      >
                      > What could be worse than that?
                      >
                      > Or being "demoted" as a person
                      > in any way?
                      >
                      > They give all their power to the
                      > heirarchy.
                      >
                      > They are powerless to help themselves.
                      > Not really, of course, but it is psychological.
                      >
                      > Whatever happened to power,
                      > wisdom and freedom?
                      >
                      > The answer, my friend, is blowing
                      > in the wind.
                      >
                      > But you knew that!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      > Thanks for sharing your
                      > comments and the info
                      > about these books!
                      >
                      > As far as "transcending
                      > religion" it seems that this
                      > is what we thought we were
                      > doing when we joined the
                      > "path" of Eckankar way back
                      > when.
                      >
                      > Early on, Eckankar seemed
                      > to have a certain mystique
                      > about it. The reality, now,
                      > is that it was never what we
                      > imagined or desired. This
                      > PT/HK consciousness is based
                      > upon delusions, lies, and
                      > manipulations frozen
                      > in time as meaningless and
                      > imagined experiences and
                      > dreams via Klemp's over-
                      > simplified and mind numbing
                      > hypnotic message. This is
                      > the "real" reason people fall
                      > asleep during his talks! And,
                      > there's No spiritual meat
                      > (protein)!
                      >
                      > The Eckankar message is
                      > merely a redundancy and
                      > regurgitation of empty 2nd
                      > and 4th Plane thoughts and
                      > words.
                      >
                      > PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                      > Westernized rewrite of the
                      > Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                      > once borrowed and plagiarized
                      > (compiled) from Sant Mat
                      > religions (etc.), and from
                      > more knowledgeable/
                      > enlightened people by
                      > the trickster Twitchell.
                      >
                      > HK's EK "path" has not only
                      > become Christianized, but
                      > has also been exposed as
                      > just another "Feel Good"
                      > religious sect that preaches
                      > one thing and does another!
                      > It's a Codependent scam!
                      >
                      > Thus, the Klemps' egos
                      > are feeling pretty good
                      > right now and the "trickle-
                      > down effect" is still sustaining
                      > their EK followers/sheep/
                      > chickens in the same ways
                      > as other religions work their
                      > magic on the numb, dumb,
                      > fearful, and superstitious
                      > masses.
                      >
                      > Still, for Eckists who think
                      > they can see beyond the
                      > veil/void it's amazing to
                      > see that they are quite
                      > incapable of true change
                      > and of discovering the
                      > real path of TRUTH, and
                      > of experiencing the art
                      > of the obvious.
                      >
                      > Truth has escaped these
                      > Eckists and they will forever
                      > remain a pawn of the KAL
                      > and under Klemp's trance
                      > of providing "sales service."
                      >
                      > This, of course, benefits HK's
                      > selfish motives, and, on the
                      > other hand, it helps to give
                      > Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                      > This is why Klemp feels he
                      > is doing no harm since it
                      > provides of service for lost
                      > Souls until they become advanced
                      > enough to realize they don't
                      > need a middleman.
                      >
                      > However, the "catch" lies
                      > within the promises made
                      > and the innate desire of
                      > soul to "Know" God and to
                      > return Home again. Eckankar
                      > manipulates this desire with
                      > "initiations" that are turned
                      > into a KAL "Trap/Test."
                      >
                      > However, Not Desiring Initiations
                      > (via a pure heart) is another
                      > trap/test that has merely been
                      > disguised while the "desire"
                      > remains hidden from outer
                      > sight. Thus, it seems to be
                      > okay to "imagine" (and still
                      > desire) higher initiations on
                      > the "INNER" via the ruse of
                      > needing a Mahanta for more
                      > and more of these fake initiations
                      > in order to expand consciousness
                      > for more and more spiritual
                      > progress.
                      >
                      > Eckists are chasing their tails
                      > via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                      > rendition of circular logic and
                      > thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                      > and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                      > in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                      > is training Eckists to become
                      > more and more Codependent
                      > upon the Mahanta and their
                      > desires and attachments?
                      >
                      > Look at the ECK stories... they
                      > all require the intercession and
                      > help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                      > via self-hypnosis and programming,
                      > (attachment) are being taught
                      > to call upon the Mahanta for
                      > anything and everything.. . but
                      > where is Soul and where is the
                      > ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                      > one mouthes certain "charged"
                      > 4th Plane words or thinks he/
                      > she is "detached" doesn't make
                      > it so!
                      >
                      > What's interesting is that these
                      > two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                      > don't require money in order
                      > to maintain (outer and Inner
                      > initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                      > but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                      > needed! This is what structured
                      > (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                      > order to control groups of people.
                      > I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                      > don't want to see the correlation
                      > and connect-the- dots.
                      >
                      > Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                      > the-dots? It probably has to do
                      > with their feelings of being "Superior
                      > Normal" and the delusion that
                      > gives them "all the answers" in
                      > order to alleviate their doubts
                      > and fears. The ego makes a better
                      > servant than it does a master,
                      > but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                      > hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                      > ego from Soul.
                      >
                      > Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                      > (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                      > writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                      > H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                      > What has Klemp been teaching
                      > his followers since he's been
                      > in charge?
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                      >
                      > So true. I really enjoyed your
                      > experiment.
                      >
                      > I used to do that sort of stuff
                      > until it became more sad than
                      > amusing.
                      >
                      > Also, a while back, I forgot
                      > to mention the books of
                      > Alan Watts, starting with
                      > "The Way of Zen" and
                      > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                      >
                      > The second title, of course,
                      > is a paradox, but one that
                      > makes sense without having
                      > to go too far into the book
                      > to see what he is talking about.
                      >
                      > One doesn't have to be necessarily
                      > into Zen or even Buddhism to
                      > understand where he was coming
                      > from.
                      >
                      > His books are very easy to read
                      > and are somewhat humorous.
                      >
                      > Interestingly, he obtained
                      > a master's degree in theology
                      > and "divinity" but went on to
                      > write twenty to thirty books
                      > on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                      > philosophies, and the psychology
                      > of religion, and the importance
                      > of mysticism insofar as the
                      > individual transcending man-
                      > made religion.
                      >
                      > whitemoby wrote:
                      >
                      > Truth can never by systemized,
                      > no matter how eloquently.
                      >
                      > Moby
                      >
                      > Rebazar Tarzs wrote:
                      >
                      > In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                      > after following instructions
                      > to the letter, but not losing
                      > his intuition, begins to question
                      > everything, and comes to
                      > see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                      > favorite or not-so-favorite
                      > community Utopia) as a kind
                      > of ivory tower, oblivious to
                      > real life, and thus, reality.
                      >
                      > He begins to realize that,
                      > after many years, and many
                      > relationships, Castilia is a
                      > self-protected society that
                      > does little, if anything, for
                      > the world outside its borders,
                      > and is burderned by a hierarchy
                      > of personalities and games
                      > people play.
                      >
                      > I won't reveal any more than
                      > this, in case someone is
                      > currently reading "Magister
                      > Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                      > but I will say this - throughout
                      > the whole story, Bruce Willis
                      > is dead.
                      >
                      > What?!?
                      >
                      > No, actually, the truth seeker,
                      > Knecht (which, in German,
                      > means servant and/or knight)
                      > (or so the Germans would have
                      > us believe) is, to the dumb-
                      > foundment of his "superiors",
                      > really looking for truth.
                      >
                      > No substitutes.
                      >
                      > I hope I didn't give away too
                      > much, as the book is almost
                      > 600 pages long, but, actually,
                      > I haven't, because there is
                      > so much truth in the story
                      > that everytime I re-read it,
                      > I realize something new.
                      >
                      > I know we used to say that
                      > about certain ECK books
                      > (before Harold) but the
                      > stuff that Paul took from
                      > others is timeless as well.
                      >
                      > What was kind of amusing
                      > is that when I read the book
                      > the first time, Darwin was
                      > the "Master."
                      >
                      > One of the first main characters
                      > in the story is the "Music Master."
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                      > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                      >
                      > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                      > It is no less than the highest
                      > reason that an entire future
                      > civilization exists. It is the
                      > grand and ongoing synthesis
                      > of all knowledge into a unified,
                      > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                      >
                      > It is an attempt to forge a
                      > holographic intellectual world
                      > where all is interconnected and
                      > reflected in every part. This is
                      > a mission to weave the golden
                      > thread of significance and meaning
                      > through every part of a culture-
                      > science and the arts and the
                      > spiritual are all unified into a
                      > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                      > rings.
                      >
                      > All this is primarily accomplished
                      > by using the language of music
                      > and mathematics as common
                      > universal symbolism (the "glass
                      > beads" are part of a symbolic
                      > physical aid that was once used
                      > for this purpose.)
                      >
                      > It is no wonder that the book
                      > places the first origins of the
                      > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                      > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                      > that the League of Journeyers
                      > to the East also figure prominently
                      > in its development. To some
                      > extent the Game has been the
                      > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                      > individuals and groups down
                      > through the ages.
                      >
                      > All of this stands in stark contrast
                      > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                      > where all knowledge, all culture,
                      > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                      > largely meaningless babble.
                      >
                      > The crisis that develops from
                      > this is that even if you accomplish
                      > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                      > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                      > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                      >
                      > It is necessary to reach out to the
                      > entire society once it is achieved
                      > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                      > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                      > mankind instead of individually
                      > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                      > society must be made whole and
                      > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                      >
                      > This is the realization that comes
                      > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                      > Master of the Game.
                      >
                      > For the game to be ultimately
                      > meaningful we have to coach
                      > everyone to eventually become
                      > Masters."
                      >
                      ************ ********* ********* ****
                      >
                      > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                      > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                      > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                      > the religious strings attached? Not by
                      > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                      > to their membership donations or else
                      > they can lose initiations!
                      >
                      > Prometheus


                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello All, What do you think about Harry promoting Joan to a 12th Initiate, and EK Master status, this October 22? However, since she wouldn t be a LEM I guess
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 13, 2009
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                        Hello All,
                        What do you think about
                        Harry promoting Joan to
                        a 12th Initiate, and EK Master
                        status, this October 22?
                        However, since she wouldn't
                        be a LEM I guess that
                        her 12th initiation doesn't
                        have to happen on PT's
                        birthday of October 22!

                        Maybe HK'll just announce
                        that she was promoted
                        to that of a 12th EK Master.
                        Will Harry put in a good
                        word for her so that she
                        can get into the Ancient
                        Order (of 'just men') of
                        the Vairagi?

                        I don't think that "Third"
                        Fill-In Postal Clerk would
                        give Joan as good of a
                        recommendation as Harry,
                        but the clerk doesn't sleep
                        with her either!

                        Thus, Kata Daki (K.D.)
                        who is actually Kay-Dee,
                        or Twitchell's sister and
                        Joan (Harold's wife) would
                        be the only two female
                        ECK Masters! That's special.

                        I'd be willing to bet that
                        had Paul lived longer and
                        if Gail had not been so easily
                        enamoured that she'd have
                        been made a 12th and an
                        EK Master.

                        Yes, Rebazar might, now,
                        be an "Ascended" Master
                        for all we know! Who do
                        you think will be the next
                        "Torchbearer" to "fill-in"
                        as the LEM?

                        BTW- Eckankar Does Have
                        "medallions" now. And they
                        are made of FOOLS GOLD
                        since the cost can never
                        be recovered. When one
                        quits the EK cult the jewelry
                        can be sold on Ebay or
                        melted down for less than
                        half the price originally paid!

                        Question: Why does EK Jewelry
                        have to be so expensive when
                        EKists, usually, don't have all
                        that much extra money laying
                        around?

                        Thus, Peter and the Board
                        could enlist this Mexican
                        company "Saints for Sinners"
                        to do painted EK Master
                        Medallions for Eckankar.
                        maybe it could be a MN.
                        Satsang Project. They would
                        just send this company
                        the images of the fake EK
                        Masters... have them do
                        a sample run and see how
                        their likeness turned out
                        on the Medallions.

                        http://www.saintsforsinners.com/medalsgallery.html

                        Anyway, these new painted
                        EK Master Medallions would
                        be much less expensive and,
                        thus, much more affordable
                        than the gold medallions.
                        And, there'd be a better/larger
                        selection with colours too!

                        Plus, there'd be a larger profit
                        margin for Eckankar, on these
                        new medallions, versus the
                        ones they carry now due to
                        the high cost of gold.

                        After all, Why do Eckists think
                        the Catholic Church permits
                        (has approved of) these less
                        expensive medallions versus
                        Gold Medallions? It's because
                        they don't want to impede the
                        funds coming into the Church
                        (from lower income areas) due
                        to expensive religious jewelry.
                        Although, I'm sure that they
                        get a percentage of the sales.

                        Actually, this same view can
                        be applied to Eckankar Seminars
                        and the depletion of Eckists' funds
                        that is created by travel and stay
                        at these EK Events. Religious
                        Pilgrimages to a "Temple" or to
                        see the Pope/Mahanta do not
                        have to done more than once in
                        a lifetime! It's a waste of Building
                        Fund/Missionary Fund and EK
                        Materials monies! If "training"
                        is required the "trainers" can
                        travel to the local areas versus
                        the hundreds of trainees traveling
                        to the trainer. Law of Economy
                        anyone?

                        And, doesn't the EK Law of Economy
                        apply to the "Gold" EK Medallions
                        and to the real purpose of the EK
                        Seminars as well! Can't there be
                        an INNER SEMINAR for H.I.s that
                        would take the place of the OUTER
                        SEMINAR! Aren't Higher Initiates able
                        to experience this via their highly
                        expanded consciousness (and tools)
                        with the assistance of their Mahanta?
                        It's something to contemplate upon!

                        And, the Lower initiates (chelas)
                        could have their own Online EK
                        Seminar (workshops etc. included)
                        and save on the costs of travel and
                        hotel stay! Thus, more Donation
                        Money is made available!

                        Prometheus

                        realbizarretarzs wrote:

                        I am surprised that Harold
                        hasn't already announced
                        the ascension of Rebazar
                        into whatever plane and/
                        or wisdom temple already,
                        because that would get the
                        500 Plus Year OId Man
                        thing out of his hair.

                        That would make Reb just
                        another past master, one
                        that no one can prove did
                        not exist.

                        The EK Master medallion
                        is a great idea.

                        Are they waiting for the
                        price of fool's gold to
                        come down?


                        Prometheus wrote:

                        Hello All,
                        Do you think Klemp will
                        mention that Darwin died
                        at this up coming Seminar?

                        If Rebazar died, as well,
                        maybe that will be the
                        excuse to make Joan an
                        EK Master... to take
                        Rebazar's place! Or,
                        would she finally be
                        taking Darwin's place?

                        BTW - I found a new way
                        that Klemp and Company
                        can make more money.

                        http://www.saintsforsinners.com/medalsgallery.html

                        This site is "Saints for Sinners"
                        where people can buy a medallion
                        with their favorite Saint painted
                        upon it. All Eckankar has to do
                        is substitute the EK Masters for
                        the Saints... like Twitchell did!
                        Anyway, I'm sure that every Eckist
                        would buy a Rebazar Medallion
                        for whatever the cost!

                        Prometheus

                        realbizarretarzs wrote:

                        You're right. Maybe Rebazar
                        died and Harold was afraid
                        to talk about it.

                        After all, he still hasn't mentioned
                        the death of the 972nd Mahanta!


                        prometheus wrote:

                        > Hello All,
                        > In the Catholic Church there
                        > are all types within the "spiritual
                        > hierarchy" that can intercede
                        > with God on the behalf of man.
                        > Twitchell and Klemp merely
                        > copied this as well and added
                        > EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                        http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6146

                        > The thing about doing research
                        > on ECKankar (versus ekankar)
                        > is that Twitchell's version (with
                        > "c" added) along with Rebazar
                        > Tarzs didn't exist more than 50
                        > years ago!
                        >
                        > This No Physical Contact is strange
                        > (not really) since Rebazar has
                        > been around for 500 years, in
                        > the same Physical Body, and
                        > even sailed with Columbus
                        > (according to Klemp)!
                        >
                        > Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                        > mentioning REBAZAR (the
                        > Torchbearer) by name nor
                        > is there anything written by
                        > RT (in his own hand) for 500
                        > years!
                        >
                        > And, since Rebazar does
                        > (supposedly) have a 500
                        > year old physical body why
                        > didn't he show up before and
                        > after Twit died versus Gail
                        > having to use a dream from
                        > Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?
                        >
                        > Why hasn't RT shown up at
                        > an EK Seminar in all of these
                        > years and given a talk? Is he
                        > too good for that?
                        >
                        > If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                        > isn't too good or too "high"
                        > to give a Seminar talk why
                        > can't Rebazar appear and
                        > give one too? He is a physical
                        > being, still! Thus, RT should
                        > be expected to show up every
                        > now and then. But... he hasn't
                        > ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                        > dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                        > it because he pissed HK off by
                        > never showing up at an EK Seminar!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi there!
                        >
                        > The intercession part is the
                        > part I really don't understand!
                        >
                        > Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                        > and the previously published short
                        > articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                        > Free," I was at odds with my
                        > Presbyterian minister while taking
                        > confirmation classes (not my idea,
                        > of course, but my parents' idea of
                        > a good time) over this very point.
                        >
                        > I got the highest grades on everything,
                        > even higher than the minister's son,
                        > but the minister was always trying
                        > to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                        > the margins of my essays, that
                        > intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                        > necessary in order to have any kind
                        > of relationship with Spirit.
                        >
                        > And I agree with you about everything
                        > else you just said. Was Paul paying
                        > Rebazar $160.00 a year?
                        >
                        > How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                        >
                        > And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                        >
                        > It's funny that you mention connecting
                        > the dots.
                        >
                        > That is when I began to discover the
                        > books we weren't supposed to know
                        > about. In the nineties I was trying to
                        > connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                        > of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                        > least 5,000 years B.C.
                        >
                        > And by doing so, I was also researching
                        > "EK" and "HU" throughout history.
                        >
                        > Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                        >
                        > I think it is just a big psychological
                        > circus that takes place, say, for an
                        > example, at a major seminar. People
                        > get all psychologically open to auto-
                        > suggestion.
                        >
                        > If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                        > If not, it is because the chela has not
                        > been doing his or her "homework."
                        >
                        > Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                        >
                        > Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                        >
                        > Harold can dish it out both ways.
                        > And eat the cake himself.
                        >
                        > Again, just like with most religions,
                        > people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                        > fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                        > but fear of the unknown - something
                        > they are supposed to be conquering
                        > BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                        >
                        > They can't because they are clinging
                        > to the known world. Their little world
                        > of "Super Normal" people.
                        >
                        > With alot of these people, most or
                        > all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.
                        >
                        > What would they think? And the
                        > idea of letting others "below" or
                        > "beneath" them passing them up
                        > in "initiations" !
                        >
                        > What could be worse than that?
                        >
                        > Or being "demoted" as a person
                        > in any way?
                        >
                        > They give all their power to the
                        > heirarchy.
                        >
                        > They are powerless to help themselves.
                        > Not really, of course, but it is psychological.
                        >
                        > Whatever happened to power,
                        > wisdom and freedom?
                        >
                        > The answer, my friend, is blowing
                        > in the wind.
                        >
                        > But you knew that!
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        > Thanks for sharing your
                        > comments and the info
                        > about these books!
                        >
                        > As far as "transcending
                        > religion" it seems that this
                        > is what we thought we were
                        > doing when we joined the
                        > "path" of Eckankar way back
                        > when.
                        >
                        > Early on, Eckankar seemed
                        > to have a certain mystique
                        > about it. The reality, now,
                        > is that it was never what we
                        > imagined or desired. This
                        > PT/HK consciousness is based
                        > upon delusions, lies, and
                        > manipulations frozen
                        > in time as meaningless and
                        > imagined experiences and
                        > dreams via Klemp's over-
                        > simplified and mind numbing
                        > hypnotic message. This is
                        > the "real" reason people fall
                        > asleep during his talks! And,
                        > there's No spiritual meat
                        > (protein)!
                        >
                        > The Eckankar message is
                        > merely a redundancy and
                        > regurgitation of empty 2nd
                        > and 4th Plane thoughts and
                        > words.
                        >
                        > PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                        > Westernized rewrite of the
                        > Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                        > once borrowed and plagiarized
                        > (compiled) from Sant Mat
                        > religions (etc.), and from
                        > more knowledgeable/
                        > enlightened people by
                        > the trickster Twitchell.
                        >
                        > HK's EK "path" has not only
                        > become Christianized, but
                        > has also been exposed as
                        > just another "Feel Good"
                        > religious sect that preaches
                        > one thing and does another!
                        > It's a Codependent scam!
                        >
                        > Thus, the Klemps' egos
                        > are feeling pretty good
                        > right now and the "trickle-
                        > down effect" is still sustaining
                        > their EK followers/sheep/
                        > chickens in the same ways
                        > as other religions work their
                        > magic on the numb, dumb,
                        > fearful, and superstitious
                        > masses.
                        >
                        > Still, for Eckists who think
                        > they can see beyond the
                        > veil/void it's amazing to
                        > see that they are quite
                        > incapable of true change
                        > and of discovering the
                        > real path of TRUTH, and
                        > of experiencing the art
                        > of the obvious.
                        >
                        > Truth has escaped these
                        > Eckists and they will forever
                        > remain a pawn of the KAL
                        > and under Klemp's trance
                        > of providing "sales service."
                        >
                        > This, of course, benefits HK's
                        > selfish motives, and, on the
                        > other hand, it helps to give
                        > Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                        > This is why Klemp feels he
                        > is doing no harm since it
                        > provides of service for lost
                        > Souls until they become advanced
                        > enough to realize they don't
                        > need a middleman.
                        >
                        > However, the "catch" lies
                        > within the promises made
                        > and the innate desire of
                        > soul to "Know" God and to
                        > return Home again. Eckankar
                        > manipulates this desire with
                        > "initiations" that are turned
                        > into a KAL "Trap/Test."
                        >
                        > However, Not Desiring Initiations
                        > (via a pure heart) is another
                        > trap/test that has merely been
                        > disguised while the "desire"
                        > remains hidden from outer
                        > sight. Thus, it seems to be
                        > okay to "imagine" (and still
                        > desire) higher initiations on
                        > the "INNER" via the ruse of
                        > needing a Mahanta for more
                        > and more of these fake initiations
                        > in order to expand consciousness
                        > for more and more spiritual
                        > progress.
                        >
                        > Eckists are chasing their tails
                        > via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                        > rendition of circular logic and
                        > thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                        > and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                        > in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                        > is training Eckists to become
                        > more and more Codependent
                        > upon the Mahanta and their
                        > desires and attachments?
                        >
                        > Look at the ECK stories... they
                        > all require the intercession and
                        > help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                        > via self-hypnosis and programming,
                        > (attachment) are being taught
                        > to call upon the Mahanta for
                        > anything and everything.. . but
                        > where is Soul and where is the
                        > ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                        > one mouthes certain "charged"
                        > 4th Plane words or thinks he/
                        > she is "detached" doesn't make
                        > it so!
                        >
                        > What's interesting is that these
                        > two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                        > don't require money in order
                        > to maintain (outer and Inner
                        > initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                        > but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                        > needed! This is what structured
                        > (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                        > order to control groups of people.
                        > I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                        > don't want to see the correlation
                        > and connect-the- dots.
                        >
                        > Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                        > the-dots? It probably has to do
                        > with their feelings of being "Superior
                        > Normal" and the delusion that
                        > gives them "all the answers" in
                        > order to alleviate their doubts
                        > and fears. The ego makes a better
                        > servant than it does a master,
                        > but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                        > hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                        > ego from Soul.
                        >
                        > Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                        > (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                        > writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                        > H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                        > What has Klemp been teaching
                        > his followers since he's been
                        > in charge?
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                        >
                        > So true. I really enjoyed your
                        > experiment.
                        >
                        > I used to do that sort of stuff
                        > until it became more sad than
                        > amusing.
                        >
                        > Also, a while back, I forgot
                        > to mention the books of
                        > Alan Watts, starting with
                        > "The Way of Zen" and
                        > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                        >
                        > The second title, of course,
                        > is a paradox, but one that
                        > makes sense without having
                        > to go too far into the book
                        > to see what he is talking about.
                        >
                        > One doesn't have to be necessarily
                        > into Zen or even Buddhism to
                        > understand where he was coming
                        > from.
                        >
                        > His books are very easy to read
                        > and are somewhat humorous.
                        >
                        > Interestingly, he obtained
                        > a master's degree in theology
                        > and "divinity" but went on to
                        > write twenty to thirty books
                        > on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                        > philosophies, and the psychology
                        > of religion, and the importance
                        > of mysticism insofar as the
                        > individual transcending man-
                        > made religion.
                        >
                        > whitemoby wrote:
                        >
                        > Truth can never by systemized,
                        > no matter how eloquently.
                        >
                        > Moby
                        >
                        > Rebazar Tarzs wrote:
                        >
                        > In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                        > after following instructions
                        > to the letter, but not losing
                        > his intuition, begins to question
                        > everything, and comes to
                        > see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                        > favorite or not-so-favorite
                        > community Utopia) as a kind
                        > of ivory tower, oblivious to
                        > real life, and thus, reality.
                        >
                        > He begins to realize that,
                        > after many years, and many
                        > relationships, Castilia is a
                        > self-protected society that
                        > does little, if anything, for
                        > the world outside its borders,
                        > and is burderned by a hierarchy
                        > of personalities and games
                        > people play.
                        >
                        > I won't reveal any more than
                        > this, in case someone is
                        > currently reading "Magister
                        > Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                        > but I will say this - throughout
                        > the whole story, Bruce Willis
                        > is dead.
                        >
                        > What?!?
                        >
                        > No, actually, the truth seeker,
                        > Knecht (which, in German,
                        > means servant and/or knight)
                        > (or so the Germans would have
                        > us believe) is, to the dumb-
                        > foundment of his "superiors",
                        > really looking for truth.
                        >
                        > No substitutes.
                        >
                        > I hope I didn't give away too
                        > much, as the book is almost
                        > 600 pages long, but, actually,
                        > I haven't, because there is
                        > so much truth in the story
                        > that everytime I re-read it,
                        > I realize something new.
                        >
                        > I know we used to say that
                        > about certain ECK books
                        > (before Harold) but the
                        > stuff that Paul took from
                        > others is timeless as well.
                        >
                        > What was kind of amusing
                        > is that when I read the book
                        > the first time, Darwin was
                        > the "Master."
                        >
                        > One of the first main characters
                        > in the story is the "Music Master."
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                        > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                        >
                        > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                        > It is no less than the highest
                        > reason that an entire future
                        > civilization exists. It is the
                        > grand and ongoing synthesis
                        > of all knowledge into a unified,
                        > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                        >
                        > It is an attempt to forge a
                        > holographic intellectual world
                        > where all is interconnected and
                        > reflected in every part. This is
                        > a mission to weave the golden
                        > thread of significance and meaning
                        > through every part of a culture-
                        > science and the arts and the
                        > spiritual are all unified into a
                        > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                        > rings.
                        >
                        > All this is primarily accomplished
                        > by using the language of music
                        > and mathematics as common
                        > universal symbolism (the "glass
                        > beads" are part of a symbolic
                        > physical aid that was once used
                        > for this purpose.)
                        >
                        > It is no wonder that the book
                        > places the first origins of the
                        > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                        > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                        > that the League of Journeyers
                        > to the East also figure prominently
                        > in its development. To some
                        > extent the Game has been the
                        > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                        > individuals and groups down
                        > through the ages.
                        >
                        > All of this stands in stark contrast
                        > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                        > where all knowledge, all culture,
                        > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                        > largely meaningless babble.
                        >
                        > The crisis that develops from
                        > this is that even if you accomplish
                        > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                        > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                        > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                        >
                        > It is necessary to reach out to the
                        > entire society once it is achieved
                        > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                        > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                        > mankind instead of individually
                        > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                        > society must be made whole and
                        > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                        >
                        > This is the realization that comes
                        > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                        > Master of the Game.
                        >
                        > For the game to be ultimately
                        > meaningful we have to coach
                        > everyone to eventually become
                        > Masters."

                        **********************************

                        > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                        > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                        > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                        > the religious strings attached? Not by
                        > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                        > to their membership donations or else
                        > they can lose initiations!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        That is when I began to discover the books we weren t supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to connect the dots, to trace the history of
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 15, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                          supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
                          connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                          all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                          R.T.

                          Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
                          about Kal Niranjan, etc.

                          Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
                          issued from Sat Purush.

                          "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
                          Niranjan was incarnated."

                          http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                          This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
                          lower worlds were created.

                          I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

                          Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
                          Eckankar?

                          "No written instructions had been put down for the
                          followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
                          sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
                          took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
                          ancient science of Soul Travel."

                          [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
                          (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
                          p. 59]

                          And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
                          Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
                          gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

                          Etznab

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                          Thinking?

                           






                          Hi there!
                           
                          The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                           
                          Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                          short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                          my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                          idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                          point.
                           
                          I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
                          son,
                          but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                          the margins
                          of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
                          order
                          to have any kind of relationship with Spirit.
                           
                          And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                          Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                           
                          How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                           
                          And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                           
                          It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                           
                          That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                          supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                          connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                          all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                           
                          And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                          throughout history.
                           
                          Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                           
                          I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                          say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                          psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                           
                          If things go well, it is because of Harold. If not, it is because
                          the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                           
                          Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                           
                          Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                           
                          Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                           
                          Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                          out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences", but fear of the
                          unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                          BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                           
                          They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                          Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                           
                          With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                          are in Eckankar.
                           
                          What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                          or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations"!
                           
                          What could be worse than that? 
                           
                          Or being "demoted" as a person in any way?
                           
                          They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                           
                          They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                          but it is psychological.
                           
                          Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                           
                          The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                           
                          But you knew that!
                           
                           
                           
                                   
                           
                                 

                          --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          wrote:


                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM


                           

                          Hello All,
                          Thanks for sharing your
                          comments and the info
                          about these books!

                          As far as "transcending
                          religion" it seems that this
                          is what we thought we were
                          doing when we joined the
                          "path" of Eckankar way back
                          when.

                          Early on, Eckankar seemed
                          to have a certain mystique
                          about it. The reality, now,
                          is that it was never what we
                          imagined or desired. This
                          PT/HK consciousness is based
                          upon delusions, lies, and
                          manipulations frozen
                          in time as meaningless and
                          imagined experiences and
                          dreams via Klemp's over-
                          simplified and mind numbing
                          hypnotic message. This is
                          the "real" reason people fall
                          asleep during his talks! And,
                          there's No spiritual meat
                          (protein)!

                          The Eckankar message is
                          merely a redundancy and
                          regurgitation of empty 2nd
                          and 4th Plane thoughts and
                          words.

                          PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                          Westernized rewrite of the

                          Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                          once borrowed and plagiarized
                          (compiled) from Sant Mat
                          religions (etc.), and from
                          more knowledgeable/
                          enlightened people by
                          the trickster Twitchell.

                          HK's EK "path" has not only
                          become Christianized, but
                          has also been exposed as
                          just another "Feel Good"
                          religious sect that preaches
                          one thing and does another!
                          It's a Codependent scam!

                          Thus, the Klemps' egos
                          are feeling pretty good
                          right now and the "trickle-
                          down effect" is still sustaining
                          their EK followers/sheep/
                          chickens in the same ways
                          as other religions work their
                          magic on the numb, dumb,
                          fearful, and superstitious
                          masses.

                          Still, for Eckists who think
                          they can see beyond the
                          veil/void it's amazing to
                          see that they are quite
                          incapable of true change
                          and of discovering the
                          real path of TRUTH, and
                          of experiencing the art
                          of the obvious.


                          Truth has escaped these
                          Eckists and they will forever
                          remain a pawn of the KAL
                          and under Klemp's trance
                          of providing "sales service."

                          This, of course, benefits HK's
                          selfish motives, and, on the
                          other hand, it helps to give
                          Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                          This is why Klemp feels he
                          is doing no harm since it
                          provides of service for lost
                          Souls until they become advanced
                          enough to realize they don't
                          need a middleman.

                          However, the "catch" lies
                          within the promises made
                          and the innate desire of
                          soul to "Know" God and to
                          return Home again. Eckankar
                          manipulates this desire with
                          "initiations" that are turned
                          into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                          However, Not Desiring Initiations
                          (via a pure heart) is another
                          trap/test that has merely been
                          disguised while the "desire"
                          remains hidden from outer
                          sight. Thus, it seems to be
                          okay to "imagine" (and still
                          desire)
                          higher initiations on
                          the "INNER" via the ruse of
                          needing a Mahanta for more
                          and more of these fake initiations
                          in order to expand consciousness
                          for more and more spiritual
                          progress.

                          Eckists are chasing their tails
                          via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                          rendition of circular logic and
                          thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                          and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                          in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                          is training Eckists to become
                          more and more Codependent
                          upon the Mahanta and their
                          desires and attachments?

                          Look at the ECK stories... they
                          all require the intercession and
                          help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                          via self-hypnosis and programming,
                          (attachment) are being taught
                          to call upon the Mahanta for
                          anything and everything.. . but
                          where is Soul and where is the
                          ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                          one mouthes certain "charged"
                          4th Plane words or thinks he/
                          she is "detached" doesn't make

                          it so!

                          What's interesting is that these
                          two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                          don't require money in order
                          to maintain (outer and Inner
                          initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                          but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                          needed! This is what structured
                          (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                          order to control groups of people.
                          I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                          don't want to see the correlation
                          and connect-the- dots.

                          Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                          the-dots? It probably has to do
                          with their feelings of being "Superior
                          Normal" and the delusion that
                          gives them "all the answers" in
                          order to alleviate their doubts
                          and fears. The ego makes a better
                          servant than it does a master,
                          but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                          hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                          ego from Soul.

                          Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                          (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                          writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                          H.I.
                          Letter, one has to wonder...
                          What has Klemp been teaching
                          his followers since he's been
                          in charge?

                          Prometheus

                          realbizarretarzs wrote:

                          So true. I really enjoyed your
                          experiment.

                          I used to do that sort of stuff
                          until it became more sad than
                          amusing.

                          Also, a while back, I forgot
                          to mention the books of
                          Alan Watts, starting with
                          "The Way of Zen" and
                          "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                          The second title, of course,
                          is a paradox, but one that
                          makes sense without having
                          to go too far into the book
                          to see what he is talking about.

                          One doesn't have to be necessarily
                          into Zen or even Buddhism to
                          understand where he was coming
                          from.

                          His books are very easy to read
                          and are somewhat humorous.

                          Interestingly, he obtained
                          a master's degree in theology
                          and "divinity" but went on to
                          write twenty to thirty books
                          on Zen and Indian and
                          Chinese
                          philosophies, and the psychology
                          of religion, and the importance
                          of mysticism insofar as the
                          individual transcending man-
                          made religion.

                          whitemoby wrote:

                          Truth can never by systemized,
                          no matter how eloquently.

                          Moby

                          Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                          In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                          after following instructions
                          to the letter, but not losing
                          his intuition, begins to question
                          everything, and comes to
                          see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                          favorite or not-so-favorite
                          community Utopia) as a kind
                          of ivory tower, oblivious to
                          real life, and thus, reality.

                          He begins to realize that,
                          after many years, and many
                          relationships, Castilia is a
                          self-protected society that
                          does little, if anything, for
                          the world outside its borders,
                          and is burderned by a hierarchy
                          of personalities and games
                          people play.

                          I won't reveal any more than
                          this, in
                          case someone is
                          currently reading "Magister
                          Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                          but I will say this - throughout
                          the whole story, Bruce Willis
                          is dead.

                          What?!?

                          No, actually, the truth seeker,
                          Knecht (which, in German,
                          means servant and/or knight)
                          (or so the Germans would have
                          us believe) is, to the dumb-
                          foundment of his "superiors",
                          really looking for truth.

                          No substitutes.

                          I hope I didn't give away too
                          much, as the book is almost
                          600 pages long, but, actually,
                          I haven't, because there is
                          so much truth in the story
                          that everytime I re-read it,
                          I realize something new.

                          I know we used to say that
                          about certain ECK books
                          (before Harold) but the
                          stuff that Paul took from
                          others is timeless as well.

                          What was kind of amusing
                          is that when I read the book
                          the first time, Darwin was
                          the "Master."

                          One of the first main characters

                          in the story is the "Music Master."


                          prometheus wrote:

                          Here's a review from Amazon.com
                          of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                          "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                          It is no less than the highest
                          reason that an entire future
                          civilization exists. It is the
                          grand and ongoing synthesis
                          of all knowledge into a unified,
                          integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                          It is an attempt to forge a
                          holographic intellectual world
                          where all is interconnected and
                          reflected in every part. This is
                          a mission to weave the golden
                          thread of significance and meaning
                          through every part of a culture-
                          science and the arts and the
                          spiritual are all unified into a
                          system of concentric, interpenetrating
                          rings.

                          All this is primarily accomplished
                          by using the language of music
                          and mathematics as common
                          universal symbolism (the "glass
                          beads" are part of a symbolic
                          physical
                          aid that was once used
                          for this purpose.)

                          It is no wonder that the book
                          places the first origins of the
                          game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                          and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                          that the League of Journeyers
                          to the East also figure prominently
                          in its development. To some
                          extent the Game has been the
                          goal of all sensitive and introspective
                          individuals and groups down
                          through the ages.

                          All of this stands in stark contrast
                          to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                          where all knowledge, all culture,
                          is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                          largely meaningless babble.

                          The crisis that develops from
                          this is that even if you accomplish
                          this grand synthesis in some isolated
                          ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                          contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                          It is necessary to reach out to the
                          entire society once it is achieved
                          in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                          attempts to enlighten the rest
                          of
                          mankind instead of individually
                          passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                          society must be made whole and
                          sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                          This is the realization that comes
                          even to the Magister Ludi, the
                          Master of the Game.

                          For the game to be ultimately
                          meaningful we have to coach
                          everyone to eventually become
                          Masters."

                          ************ ********* ********* ****

                          Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                          Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                          outflow principle) be accomplished without
                          the religious strings attached? Not by
                          Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                          to their membership donations or else
                          they can lose initiations!

                          Prometheus
                        • Rebazar Tarzs
                          From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.   I don t know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 16, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one
                            (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.
                             
                            I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did
                            (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,
                            these two seemed to be on the same page,
                            so to speak.
                             
                            Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?
                             
                            It is all poetry.
                             
                            Thanks for the link.
                             
                            Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where
                            Kabir got this information.
                             
                            Do you know?  

                            --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                            From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM

                             
                            That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                            supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
                            connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                            all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                            R.T.

                            Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
                            about Kal Niranjan, etc.

                            Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
                            issued from Sat Purush.

                            "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
                            Niranjan was incarnated."

                            http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book& book=4817& page=23

                            This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
                            lower worlds were created.

                            I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

                            Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
                            Eckankar?

                            "No written instructions had been put down for the
                            followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
                            sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
                            took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
                            ancient science of Soul Travel."

                            [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
                            (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
                            p. 59]

                            And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
                            Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
                            gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

                            Etznab

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                            Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                            Thinking?

                             

                            Hi there!
                             
                            The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                             
                            Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                            short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                            my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                            idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                            point.
                             
                            I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
                            son,
                            but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                            the margins
                            of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
                            order
                            to have any kind of relationship with Spirit.
                             
                            And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                            Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                             
                            How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                             
                            And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                             
                            It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                             
                            That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                            supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                            connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                            all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                             
                            And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                            throughout history.
                             
                            Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                             
                            I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                            say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                            psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                             
                            If things go well, it is because of Harold. If not, it is because
                            the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                             
                            Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                             
                            Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                             
                            Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                             
                            Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                            out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the
                            unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                            BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                             
                            They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                            Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                             
                            With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                            are in Eckankar.
                             
                            What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                            or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !
                             
                            What could be worse than that? 
                             
                            Or being "demoted" as a person in any way?
                             
                            They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                             
                            They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                            but it is psychological.
                             
                            Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                             
                            The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                             
                            But you knew that!
                             
                             
                             
                                     
                             
                                   

                            --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@ yahoo.com&gt;
                            wrote:

                            From: prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@ yahoo.com&gt;
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                            Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

                             

                            Hello All,
                            Thanks for sharing your
                            comments and the info
                            about these books!

                            As far as "transcending
                            religion" it seems that this
                            is what we thought we were
                            doing when we joined the
                            "path" of Eckankar way back
                            when.

                            Early on, Eckankar seemed
                            to have a certain mystique
                            about it. The reality, now,
                            is that it was never what we
                            imagined or desired. This
                            PT/HK consciousness is based
                            upon delusions, lies, and
                            manipulations frozen
                            in time as meaningless and
                            imagined experiences and
                            dreams via Klemp's over-
                            simplified and mind numbing
                            hypnotic message. This is
                            the "real" reason people fall
                            asleep during his talks! And,
                            there's No spiritual meat
                            (protein)!

                            The Eckankar message is
                            merely a redundancy and
                            regurgitation of empty 2nd
                            and 4th Plane thoughts and
                            words.

                            PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                            Westernized rewrite of the

                            Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                            once borrowed and plagiarized
                            (compiled) from Sant Mat
                            religions (etc.), and from
                            more knowledgeable/
                            enlightened people by
                            the trickster Twitchell.

                            HK's EK "path" has not only
                            become Christianized, but
                            has also been exposed as
                            just another "Feel Good"
                            religious sect that preaches
                            one thing and does another!
                            It's a Codependent scam!

                            Thus, the Klemps' egos
                            are feeling pretty good
                            right now and the "trickle-
                            down effect" is still sustaining
                            their EK followers/sheep/
                            chickens in the same ways
                            as other religions work their
                            magic on the numb, dumb,
                            fearful, and superstitious
                            masses.

                            Still, for Eckists who think
                            they can see beyond the
                            veil/void it's amazing to
                            see that they are quite
                            incapable of true change
                            and of discovering the
                            real path of TRUTH, and
                            of experiencing the art
                            of the obvious.

                            Truth has escaped these
                            Eckists and they will forever
                            remain a pawn of the KAL
                            and under Klemp's trance
                            of providing "sales service."

                            This, of course, benefits HK's
                            selfish motives, and, on the
                            other hand, it helps to give
                            Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                            This is why Klemp feels he
                            is doing no harm since it
                            provides of service for lost
                            Souls until they become advanced
                            enough to realize they don't
                            need a middleman.

                            However, the "catch" lies
                            within the promises made
                            and the innate desire of
                            soul to "Know" God and to
                            return Home again. Eckankar
                            manipulates this desire with
                            "initiations" that are turned
                            into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                            However, Not Desiring Initiations
                            (via a pure heart) is another
                            trap/test that has merely been
                            disguised while the "desire"
                            remains hidden from outer
                            sight. Thus, it seems to be
                            okay to "imagine" (and still
                            desire)
                            higher initiations on
                            the "INNER" via the ruse of
                            needing a Mahanta for more
                            and more of these fake initiations
                            in order to expand consciousness
                            for more and more spiritual
                            progress.

                            Eckists are chasing their tails
                            via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                            rendition of circular logic and
                            thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                            and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                            in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                            is training Eckists to become
                            more and more Codependent
                            upon the Mahanta and their
                            desires and attachments?

                            Look at the ECK stories... they
                            all require the intercession and
                            help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                            via self-hypnosis and programming,
                            (attachment) are being taught
                            to call upon the Mahanta for
                            anything and everything.. . but
                            where is Soul and where is the
                            ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                            one mouthes certain "charged"
                            4th Plane words or thinks he/
                            she is "detached" doesn't make

                            it so!

                            What's interesting is that these
                            two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                            don't require money in order
                            to maintain (outer and Inner
                            initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                            but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                            needed! This is what structured
                            (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                            order to control groups of people.
                            I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                            don't want to see the correlation
                            and connect-the- dots.

                            Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                            the-dots? It probably has to do
                            with their feelings of being "Superior
                            Normal" and the delusion that
                            gives them "all the answers" in
                            order to alleviate their doubts
                            and fears. The ego makes a better
                            servant than it does a master,
                            but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                            hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                            ego from Soul.

                            Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                            (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                            writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                            H.I.
                            Letter, one has to wonder...
                            What has Klemp been teaching
                            his followers since he's been
                            in charge?

                            Prometheus

                            realbizarretarzs wrote:

                            So true. I really enjoyed your
                            experiment.

                            I used to do that sort of stuff
                            until it became more sad than
                            amusing.

                            Also, a while back, I forgot
                            to mention the books of
                            Alan Watts, starting with
                            "The Way of Zen" and
                            "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                            The second title, of course,
                            is a paradox, but one that
                            makes sense without having
                            to go too far into the book
                            to see what he is talking about.

                            One doesn't have to be necessarily
                            into Zen or even Buddhism to
                            understand where he was coming
                            from.

                            His books are very easy to read
                            and are somewhat humorous.

                            Interestingly, he obtained
                            a master's degree in theology
                            and "divinity" but went on to
                            write twenty to thirty books
                            on Zen and Indian and
                            Chinese
                            philosophies, and the psychology
                            of religion, and the importance
                            of mysticism insofar as the
                            individual transcending man-
                            made religion.

                            whitemoby wrote:

                            Truth can never by systemized,
                            no matter how eloquently.

                            Moby

                            Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                            In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                            after following instructions
                            to the letter, but not losing
                            his intuition, begins to question
                            everything, and comes to
                            see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                            favorite or not-so-favorite
                            community Utopia) as a kind
                            of ivory tower, oblivious to
                            real life, and thus, reality.

                            He begins to realize that,
                            after many years, and many
                            relationships, Castilia is a
                            self-protected society that
                            does little, if anything, for
                            the world outside its borders,
                            and is burderned by a hierarchy
                            of personalities and games
                            people play.

                            I won't reveal any more than
                            this, in
                            case someone is
                            currently reading "Magister
                            Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                            but I will say this - throughout
                            the whole story, Bruce Willis
                            is dead.

                            What?!?

                            No, actually, the truth seeker,
                            Knecht (which, in German,
                            means servant and/or knight)
                            (or so the Germans would have
                            us believe) is, to the dumb-
                            foundment of his "superiors",
                            really looking for truth.

                            No substitutes.

                            I hope I didn't give away too
                            much, as the book is almost
                            600 pages long, but, actually,
                            I haven't, because there is
                            so much truth in the story
                            that everytime I re-read it,
                            I realize something new.

                            I know we used to say that
                            about certain ECK books
                            (before Harold) but the
                            stuff that Paul took from
                            others is timeless as well.

                            What was kind of amusing
                            is that when I read the book
                            the first time, Darwin was
                            the "Master."

                            One of the first main characters

                            in the story is the "Music Master."

                            prometheus wrote:

                            Here's a review from Amazon.com
                            of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                            "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                            It is no less than the highest
                            reason that an entire future
                            civilization exists. It is the
                            grand and ongoing synthesis
                            of all knowledge into a unified,
                            integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                            It is an attempt to forge a
                            holographic intellectual world
                            where all is interconnected and
                            reflected in every part. This is
                            a mission to weave the golden
                            thread of significance and meaning
                            through every part of a culture-
                            science and the arts and the
                            spiritual are all unified into a
                            system of concentric, interpenetrating
                            rings.

                            All this is primarily accomplished
                            by using the language of music
                            and mathematics as common
                            universal symbolism (the "glass
                            beads" are part of a symbolic
                            physical
                            aid that was once used
                            for this purpose.)

                            It is no wonder that the book
                            places the first origins of the
                            game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                            and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                            that the League of Journeyers
                            to the East also figure prominently
                            in its development. To some
                            extent the Game has been the
                            goal of all sensitive and introspective
                            individuals and groups down
                            through the ages.

                            All of this stands in stark contrast
                            to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                            where all knowledge, all culture,
                            is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                            largely meaningless babble.

                            The crisis that develops from
                            this is that even if you accomplish
                            this grand synthesis in some isolated
                            ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                            contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                            It is necessary to reach out to the
                            entire society once it is achieved
                            in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                            attempts to enlighten the rest
                            of
                            mankind instead of individually
                            passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                            society must be made whole and
                            sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                            This is the realization that comes
                            even to the Magister Ludi, the
                            Master of the Game.

                            For the game to be ultimately
                            meaningful we have to coach
                            everyone to eventually become
                            Masters."

                            ************ ********* ********* ****

                            Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                            Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                            outflow principle) be accomplished without
                            the religious strings attached? Not by
                            Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                            to their membership donations or else
                            they can lose initiations!

                            Prometheus


                          • etznab@aol.com
                            I don t have the book by Kabir that you mentioned. And I don t know that he ever mentioned ek onkar. Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked similar to
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.
                              And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

                              Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked
                              similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I
                              believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I
                              saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed
                              over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks
                              similar in some ways, but different.

                              http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html

                              Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and
                              Kapila.

                              In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh
                              are mentioned here.

                              http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html

                              It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak
                              Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

                              The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the
                              teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number
                              of similarities. IMO.

                              The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are
                              curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya
                              philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show
                              the order and sequence of creation.)

                              The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

                              It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for
                              Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by
                              Kabir.

                              The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

                              The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.

                              http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                              The apparent tendency in both systems seems
                              to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

                              From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

                              "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:
                              When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was
                              incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the
                              body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"

                              http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                              I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described
                              as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's
                              story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,
                              where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

                              IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are
                              the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths
                              literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas
                              that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal
                              organized religious interpretations which may be far,
                              far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-
                              come disconnected from the true origins of their path
                              appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"
                              leading the "blind".

                              As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

                              See what I mean? :)

                              For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)
                              is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To
                              look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

                              Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and
                              clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have
                              visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't
                              have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths
                              except when they are taken literally and people don't see
                              the difference between fiction and fact.

                              Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can
                              the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell
                              from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

                              I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from
                              the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and
                              keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same
                              teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the
                              lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

                              Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-
                              ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

                              However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these
                              stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.
                              Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of
                              them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those
                              sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be
                              they members of a particular religion or not - often have
                              to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms
                              of "torture" for speaking their minds.

                              Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-
                              pool and everything goes down the drain? :)

                              Etznab






                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am
                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                              Thinking?

                               






                              From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one
                              (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.
                               
                              I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did
                              (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,
                              these two seemed to be on the same page,
                              so to speak.
                               
                              Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?
                               
                              It is all poetry.
                               
                              Thanks for the link.
                               
                              Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where
                              Kabir got this information.
                               
                              Do you know?  

                              --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:


                              From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                              Thinking?
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM


                               

                              That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                              supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
                              connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                              all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                              R.T.

                              Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
                              about Kal Niranjan, etc.

                              Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
                              issued from Sat Purush.

                              "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
                              Niranjan was incarnated."

                              http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&
                              book=4817& page=23

                              This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
                              lower worlds were created.

                              I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

                              Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
                              Eckankar?

                              "No written instructions had been put
                              down for the
                              followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
                              sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
                              took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
                              ancient science of Soul Travel."

                              [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
                              (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
                              p. 59]

                              And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
                              Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
                              gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

                              Etznab

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                              Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                              Thinking?

                               

                              Hi there!
                               
                              The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                               
                              Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                              short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                              my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                              idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                              point.
                               
                              I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
                              son,
                              but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                              the margins
                              of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
                              order
                              to have any kind
                              of relationship with Spirit.
                               
                              And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                              Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                               
                              How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                               
                              And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                               
                              It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                               
                              That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                              supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                              connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                              all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                               
                              And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                              throughout history.
                               
                              Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                               
                              I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                              say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                              psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                               
                              If things go well, it is because of Harold. If
                              not, it is because
                              the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                               
                              Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                               
                              Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                               
                              Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                               
                              Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                              out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the
                              unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                              BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                               
                              They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                              Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                               
                              With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                              are in Eckankar.
                               
                              What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                              or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !
                               
                              What could be worse than that? 
                               
                              Or being "demoted" as a person in any
                              way?
                               
                              They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                               
                              They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                              but it is psychological.
                               
                              Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                               
                              The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                               
                              But you knew that!
                               
                               
                               
                                       
                               
                                     

                              --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                              wrote:

                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                              Subject:
                              [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                              Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

                               

                              Hello All,
                              Thanks for sharing your
                              comments and the info
                              about these books!

                              As far as "transcending
                              religion" it seems that this
                              is what we thought we were
                              doing when we joined the
                              "path" of Eckankar way back
                              when.

                              Early on, Eckankar seemed
                              to have a certain mystique
                              about it. The reality, now,
                              is that it was never what we
                              imagined or desired. This
                              PT/HK consciousness is based
                              upon delusions, lies, and
                              manipulations frozen
                              in time as meaningless and
                              imagined experiences and
                              dreams via Klemp's over-
                              simplified and mind
                              numbing
                              hypnotic message. This is
                              the "real" reason people fall
                              asleep during his talks! And,
                              there's No spiritual meat
                              (protein)!

                              The Eckankar message is
                              merely a redundancy and
                              regurgitation of empty 2nd
                              and 4th Plane thoughts and
                              words.

                              PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                              Westernized rewrite of the

                              Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                              once borrowed and plagiarized
                              (compiled) from Sant Mat
                              religions (etc.), and from
                              more knowledgeable/
                              enlightened people by
                              the trickster Twitchell.

                              HK's EK "path" has not only
                              become Christianized, but
                              has also been exposed as
                              just another "Feel Good"
                              religious sect that preaches
                              one thing and does another!
                              It's a Codependent scam!

                              Thus, the Klemps' egos
                              are feeling pretty good
                              right now and the "trickle-
                              down effect" is still sustaining
                              their EK followers/sheep/
                              chickens in the same ways
                              as other religions work
                              their
                              magic on the numb, dumb,
                              fearful, and superstitious
                              masses.

                              Still, for Eckists who think
                              they can see beyond the
                              veil/void it's amazing to
                              see that they are quite
                              incapable of true change
                              and of discovering the
                              real path of TRUTH, and
                              of experiencing the art
                              of the obvious.

                              Truth has escaped these
                              Eckists and they will forever
                              remain a pawn of the KAL
                              and under Klemp's trance
                              of providing "sales service."

                              This, of course, benefits HK's
                              selfish motives, and, on the
                              other hand, it helps to give
                              Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                              This is why Klemp feels he
                              is doing no harm since it
                              provides of service for lost
                              Souls until they become advanced
                              enough to realize they don't
                              need a middleman.

                              However, the "catch" lies
                              within the promises made
                              and the innate desire of
                              soul to "Know" God and to
                              return Home again. Eckankar
                              manipulates this desire
                              with
                              "initiations" that are turned
                              into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                              However, Not Desiring Initiations
                              (via a pure heart) is another
                              trap/test that has merely been
                              disguised while the "desire"
                              remains hidden from outer
                              sight. Thus, it seems to be
                              okay to "imagine" (and still
                              desire)
                              higher initiations on
                              the "INNER" via the ruse of
                              needing a Mahanta for more
                              and more of these fake initiations
                              in order to expand consciousness
                              for more and more spiritual
                              progress.

                              Eckists are chasing their tails
                              via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                              rendition of circular logic and
                              thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                              and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                              in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                              is training Eckists to become
                              more and more Codependent
                              upon the Mahanta and their
                              desires and attachments?

                              Look at the ECK stories... they
                              all require the intercession and
                              help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                              via
                              self-hypnosis and programming,
                              (attachment) are being taught
                              to call upon the Mahanta for
                              anything and everything.. . but
                              where is Soul and where is the
                              ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                              one mouthes certain "charged"
                              4th Plane words or thinks he/
                              she is "detached" doesn't make

                              it so!

                              What's interesting is that these
                              two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                              don't require money in order
                              to maintain (outer and Inner
                              initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                              but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                              needed! This is what structured
                              (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                              order to control groups of people.
                              I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                              don't want to see the correlation
                              and connect-the- dots.

                              Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                              the-dots? It probably has to do
                              with their feelings of being "Superior
                              Normal" and the delusion that
                              gives them "all the answers" in
                              order to alleviate their
                              doubts
                              and fears. The ego makes a better
                              servant than it does a master,
                              but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                              hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                              ego from Soul.

                              Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                              (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                              writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                              H.I.
                              Letter, one has to wonder...
                              What has Klemp been teaching
                              his followers since he's been
                              in charge?

                              Prometheus

                              realbizarretarzs wrote:

                              So true. I really enjoyed your
                              experiment.

                              I used to do that sort of stuff
                              until it became more sad than
                              amusing.

                              Also, a while back, I forgot
                              to mention the books of
                              Alan Watts, starting with
                              "The Way of Zen" and
                              "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                              The second title, of course,
                              is a paradox, but one that
                              makes sense without having
                              to go too far into the book
                              to see what he is talking about.

                              One doesn't have to be necessarily
                              into Zen or even
                              Buddhism to
                              understand where he was coming
                              from.

                              His books are very easy to read
                              and are somewhat humorous.

                              Interestingly, he obtained
                              a master's degree in theology
                              and "divinity" but went on to
                              write twenty to thirty books
                              on Zen and Indian and
                              Chinese
                              philosophies, and the psychology
                              of religion, and the importance
                              of mysticism insofar as the
                              individual transcending man-
                              made religion.

                              whitemoby wrote:

                              Truth can never by systemized,
                              no matter how eloquently.

                              Moby

                              Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                              In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                              after following instructions
                              to the letter, but not losing
                              his intuition, begins to question
                              everything, and comes to
                              see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                              favorite or not-so-favorite
                              community Utopia) as a kind
                              of ivory tower, oblivious to
                              real life, and thus, reality.

                              He begins to realize that,
                              after many years, and
                              many
                              relationships, Castilia is a
                              self-protected society that
                              does little, if anything, for
                              the world outside its borders,
                              and is burderned by a hierarchy
                              of personalities and games
                              people play.

                              I won't reveal any more than
                              this, in
                              case someone is
                              currently reading "Magister
                              Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                              but I will say this - throughout
                              the whole story, Bruce Willis
                              is dead.

                              What?!?

                              No, actually, the truth seeker,
                              Knecht (which, in German,
                              means servant and/or knight)
                              (or so the Germans would have
                              us believe) is, to the dumb-
                              foundment of his "superiors",
                              really looking for truth.

                              No substitutes.

                              I hope I didn't give away too
                              much, as the book is almost
                              600 pages long, but, actually,
                              I haven't, because there is
                              so much truth in the story
                              that everytime I re-read it,
                              I realize something new.

                              I know we used to say that
                              about certain
                              ECK books
                              (before Harold) but the
                              stuff that Paul took from
                              others is timeless as well.

                              What was kind of amusing
                              is that when I read the book
                              the first time, Darwin was
                              the "Master."

                              One of the first main characters

                              in the story is the "Music Master."

                              prometheus wrote:

                              Here's a review from Amazon.com
                              of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                              "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                              It is no less than the highest
                              reason that an entire future
                              civilization exists. It is the
                              grand and ongoing synthesis
                              of all knowledge into a unified,
                              integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                              It is an attempt to forge a
                              holographic intellectual world
                              where all is interconnected and
                              reflected in every part. This is
                              a mission to weave the golden
                              thread of significance and meaning
                              through every part of a culture-
                              science and the arts and the
                              spiritual are all unified into a
                              system of
                              concentric, interpenetrating
                              rings.

                              All this is primarily accomplished
                              by using the language of music
                              and mathematics as common
                              universal symbolism (the "glass
                              beads" are part of a symbolic
                              physical
                              aid that was once used
                              for this purpose.)

                              It is no wonder that the book
                              places the first origins of the
                              game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                              and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                              that the League of Journeyers
                              to the East also figure prominently
                              in its development. To some
                              extent the Game has been the
                              goal of all sensitive and introspective
                              individuals and groups down
                              through the ages.

                              All of this stands in stark contrast
                              to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                              where all knowledge, all culture,
                              is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                              largely meaningless babble.

                              The crisis that develops from
                              this is that even if you accomplish
                              this grand synthesis in some isolated
                              ivory tower refuge of
                              intellectual
                              contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                              It is necessary to reach out to the
                              entire society once it is achieved
                              in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                              attempts to enlighten the rest
                              of
                              mankind instead of individually
                              passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                              society must be made whole and
                              sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                              This is the realization that comes
                              even to the Magister Ludi, the
                              Master of the Game.

                              For the game to be ultimately
                              meaningful we have to coach
                              everyone to eventually become
                              Masters."

                              ************ ********* ********* ****

                              Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                              Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                              outflow principle) be accomplished without
                              the religious strings attached? Not by
                              Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                              to their membership donations or else
                              they can lose
                              initiations!

                              Prometheus
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              Some time ago I took notice of the words purukh (Purush) and Prakrti (Prakrta). How they contained similar sounds. At the heart of explanations for
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Some time ago I took notice of the words
                                "purukh" (Purush) and "Prakrti" (Prakrta).
                                How they contained similar sounds.

                                At the heart of explanations for creation
                                and how "material" & "spiritual" coexist
                                I found those two words. In Indian texts
                                mostly.

                                Both words begin by illustrating the con-
                                sonants P + R. Prakrti, however, appears
                                to have the Sanskrit root "kr", which IMO
                                is connected with the ideas of action and
                                karma. The "ti" part could be a "feminine"
                                ending (I'm guessing).

                                Both of those words are at the heart of
                                creation according to certain teachings.
                                They also contain the "letters" P + R +
                                K (when you spell purush as purukh).

                                Here are some etymologies that may,
                                or may not help.

                                prak - "Definitions: previously, before, first[ly]
                                (Sanskrit).

                                puru - "Definitions: 'much, many'." (Vedic)

                                http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/vedol-4-X.html

                                In the Vedas there is a Dawn Maiden
                                by the name of Ushas, I believe.

                                Ushas - "The lovely Hindu dawn maiden who
                                sprung from the head of Dyaus. The twin sister
                                of Nakt, or Ratri [the goddess of night] (Hindu
                                Mythology). Associated spellings/words: usas
                                ['shining; east'] (Sanskrit); uchanti ['shining']
                                (Vedic); eos; aurora."

                                Notice the word uchanti has a "c".

                                The "c" in Purukh changing to "s" is not very
                                uncommon. I've seen a number of cases where
                                the "c" and "k" sounds evolve to "s".

                                Viva La France! (Home of the Franks :)

                                In some places the definition for "guru" means
                                "dispeller of darkness". Now I wonder if that is
                                connected to the idea of "light bearer"?

                                Light and darkness are common symbols for
                                good and evil. However, what does Purukh &
                                Prakrta really symbolize? [BTW, the latter is
                                connected with the gender that was once de-
                                monized in the Bible. The feminine. Consider
                                also how in many traditions the "Sat Guru" is
                                (the vehicle of which, at least) is associated
                                with the opposite, or "masculine" gender.]

                                Is this really a very unique teaching? The idea
                                that "God" is male & "Nature" is female? It is
                                really quite common actually.

                                In the Anurag Sagar it seemed that Kal Niranjan
                                wanted to create a world or something. And here
                                is what it said on the Sant Mat site:

                                Fifth Shabda – Kal-Niranjan : Full name of the
                                Negative Power, often shortened to Kal (q.v.).
                                Niranjan means "beyond illusion," and is applied
                                to Kal ("Time") because he is the creator of illusion.

                                http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=24

                                Kal, the creator of illusion, is Niranjan? Beyond
                                illusion?

                                Isn't that special :)

                                Another name for Kal Niranjan on the site seems
                                to be Dharam Rai. This being seems to be quite
                                devotional to Sat Purush. One day, however, the
                                being appears to say (these are in italics):

                                "Oh, Sahaj, my brother – go and make this request
                                to Sat Purush: I don't like this small place. Please
                                give me a big kingdom. In my heart I have felt such
                                love for Him! He should bless me with a big place.
                                He should either give me the world of the gods, or
                                else a separate world."

                                http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25

                                Sat Purush replies (also italics):

                                After hearing the words of Sahaj, Sat Purush said this:

                                "I am pleased with Dharam Rai; take this to your heart:
                                I have given him the three Worlds, now go and tell him
                                to develop the Void plane. Oh Sahaj, tell him to make
                                his creation there."

                                And at the bottom of the page it has a description for
                                what is the void plane.

                                "The Void Plane: The three worlds in their pre-existent
                                state."

                                http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25

                                ***************************************************************

                                Now I am wondering how old are these teachings, the
                                story, whatever, in the Anurag Sagar? And how do I
                                know they are the original, for one? And how do I know
                                it is not the case of one person borrowing from another
                                and making up their own version of things?

                                Sant Mat and Eckankar both hearken back to Kabir
                                when recounting the history of their teachings. And
                                if Sant Mat was know earlier than the word - and the
                                modern day - "Eckankar", Where did Sant Mat come
                                from? Where did Kabir get his teachings? For that
                                matter.

                                This is a Wikipedia quote:

                                The Sant Mat movement was not homogeneous, and
                                consisted mostly of the Sants' own socio-religious
                                attitudes which were based on bhakti (devotion) as
                                described a thousand years earlier in the Bhagavad
                                Gita.[3] Sharing as few conventions with each other as
                                with the followers of the traditions they challenged, the
                                Sants appear more as a diverse collection of spiritual
                                personalities than a specific religious tradition, although
                                they acknowledged a common spiritual root.[4]

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sant_Mat

                                Whether true or not, that gave me the impression of
                                so many people scattered around the area each with
                                their own particular form of tradition.

                                Here is a page with summary for the philosophy of
                                Kabir.

                                "The basic religious principles he espoused are simple.
                                According to Kabir, all life is an interplay of two spiritual
                                principles. One is the personal soul (Jivatma) and the
                                other is God (Paramatma). It is Kabir's view that salvation
                                is the process of bringing into union these two divine
                                principles."

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir

                                The bringing into union? Nanak appears to suggest the
                                contact with Nam. And Radha Soami has the sound
                                current before spiritual liberation. And before the sound
                                current, has contact with a living master. Eckankar also
                                appears to echo the Sat Guru, Shabda & Jivan Mukti
                                paradigm (notice the word "jiva" in Jivan Mukti).

                                I'm trying to spell out the "apparent" duality being here
                                described in symbolic terms. For example, there are
                                the terms "Atma" and "Jivatma". One appears to mean
                                the "spiritual" principle of soul and the other the "living"
                                principle (that tied to matter). Mystic Judaism and even
                                Islam have different kinds of "souls", too. The "animal"
                                soul, etc.

                                What is the "common root" in all of this? Whatever it is
                                there appear to be dozens of ways (and religions) trying
                                to explain it. Now it so happens there are a number of
                                different paths (Eckankar included?) which make seem
                                as though the prerequisite for spiritual liberation means
                                joining their particular group? Accepting their particular
                                "Living Master" (prerequisite meaning what you need to
                                do first)? Did I spell that right?

                                Something is wrong with this picture if several different
                                paths and religions have it that their version is the true
                                version and all the others are somehow less. Offshoots,
                                etc.

                                This post is just a long-winded way of saying I doubt it
                                that all appear to have a common root. Because if they
                                did then somebody would have discovered it by now &
                                painted a picture of the "plant" that has since evolved.
                                Instead I see a whole orchard of "fruit trees" and even
                                nobody is actually certain it was an "apple tree" in the
                                Garden of Eden.

                                If we had the "root" then wouldn't we have the truth?

                                Etznab















                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: etznab@...
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 4:04 pm
                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                                Thinking?

                                 








                                I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.

                                And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.



                                Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked

                                similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I

                                believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I

                                saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed

                                over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks

                                similar in some ways, but different.



                                http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html



                                Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and

                                Kapila.



                                In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh

                                are mentioned here.



                                http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html



                                It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak

                                Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)



                                The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the

                                teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number

                                of similarities. IMO.



                                The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are

                                curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya

                                philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show

                                the order and sequence of creation.)



                                The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).



                                It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for

                                Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by

                                Kabir.



                                The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.



                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya



                                The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.



                                http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23



                                The apparent tendency in both systems seems

                                to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".



                                From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:



                                "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:

                                When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was

                                incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the

                                body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"



                                http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23



                                I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described

                                as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's

                                story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,

                                where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".



                                IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are

                                the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths

                                literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas

                                that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal

                                organized religious interpretations which may be far,

                                far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-

                                come disconnected from the true origins of their path

                                appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"

                                leading the "blind".



                                As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!



                                See what I mean? :)



                                For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)

                                is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To

                                look at where they came from & how the history evolved.



                                Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and

                                clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have

                                visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't

                                have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths

                                except when they are taken literally and people don't see

                                the difference between fiction and fact.



                                Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can

                                the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell

                                from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?



                                I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from

                                the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and

                                keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same

                                teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the

                                lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?



                                Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-

                                ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?



                                However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these

                                stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.

                                Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of

                                them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those

                                sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be

                                they members of a particular religion or not - often have

                                to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms

                                of "torture" for speaking their minds.



                                Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-

                                pool and everything goes down the drain? :)



                                Etznab



                                -----Original Message-----

                                From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>

                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                                Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am

                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

                                Thinking?



                                 



                                From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one

                                (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.

                                 

                                I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did

                                (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,

                                these two seemed to be on the same page,

                                so to speak.

                                 

                                Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?

                                 

                                It is all poetry.

                                 

                                Thanks for the link.

                                 

                                Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where

                                Kabir got this information.

                                 

                                Do you know?  



                                --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:



                                From: etznab@... <etznab@...>

                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

                                Thinking?

                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                                Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM



                                 



                                That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

                                supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to

                                connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

                                all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.



                                R.T.



                                Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know

                                about Kal Niranjan, etc.



                                Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas

                                issued from Sat Purush.



                                "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-

                                Niranjan was incarnated."



                                http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&

                                book=4817& page=23



                                This page tells about it. And the links go to how the

                                lower worlds were created.



                                I doubt that is all to be taken literally.



                                Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on

                                Eckankar?



                                "No written instructions had been put

                                down for the

                                followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the

                                sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,

                                took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the

                                ancient science of Soul Travel."



                                [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1

                                (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,

                                p. 59]



                                And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than

                                Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly

                                gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).



                                Etznab



                                -----Original Message-----

                                From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>

                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                                Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm

                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

                                Thinking?



                                 



                                Hi there!

                                 

                                The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!

                                 

                                Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published

                                short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with

                                my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my

                                idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very

                                point.

                                 

                                I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's

                                son,

                                but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in

                                the margins

                                of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in

                                order

                                to have any kind

                                of relationship with Spirit.

                                 

                                And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 

                                Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 

                                 

                                How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

                                 

                                And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

                                 

                                It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.

                                 

                                That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

                                supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 

                                connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

                                all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                                 

                                And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"

                                throughout history.

                                 

                                Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

                                 

                                I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,

                                say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all

                                psychologically open to auto-suggestion.

                                 

                                If things go well, it is because of Harold. If

                                not, it is because

                                the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 

                                 

                                Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

                                 

                                Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

                                 

                                Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.

                                 

                                Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"

                                out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the

                                unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering

                                BECAUSE of Eckankar!

                                 

                                They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 

                                Their little world of "Super Normal" people.

                                 

                                With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"

                                are in Eckankar.

                                 

                                What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"

                                or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !

                                 

                                What could be worse than that? 

                                 

                                Or being "demoted" as a person in any

                                way?

                                 

                                They give all their power to the heirarchy.

                                 

                                They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,

                                but it is psychological.

                                 

                                Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 

                                 

                                The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.

                                 

                                But you knew that!

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                         

                                 

                                       



                                --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

                                wrote:



                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

                                Subject:

                                [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?

                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                                Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM



                                 



                                Hello All,

                                Thanks for sharing your

                                comments and the info

                                about these books!



                                As far as "transcending

                                religion" it seems that this

                                is what we thought we were

                                doing when we joined the

                                "path" of Eckankar way back

                                when.



                                Early on, Eckankar seemed

                                to have a certain mystique

                                about it. The reality, now,

                                is that it was never what we

                                imagined or desired. This

                                PT/HK consciousness is based

                                upon delusions, lies, and

                                manipulations frozen

                                in time as meaningless and

                                imagined experiences and

                                dreams via Klemp's over-

                                simplified and mind

                                numbing

                                hypnotic message. This is

                                the "real" reason people fall

                                asleep during his talks! And,

                                there's No spiritual meat

                                (protein)!



                                The Eckankar message is

                                merely a redundancy and

                                regurgitation of empty 2nd

                                and 4th Plane thoughts and

                                words.



                                PT's Eckankar is a New Age/

                                Westernized rewrite of the



                                Eastern thoughts and dogmas

                                once borrowed and plagiarized

                                (compiled) from Sant Mat

                                religions (etc.), and from

                                more knowledgeable/

                                enlightened people by

                                the trickster Twitchell.



                                HK's EK "path" has not only

                                become Christianized, but

                                has also been exposed as

                                just another "Feel Good"

                                religious sect that preaches

                                one thing and does another!

                                It's a Codependent scam!



                                Thus, the Klemps' egos

                                are feeling pretty good

                                right now and the "trickle-

                                down effect" is still sustaining

                                their EK followers/sheep/

                                chickens in the same ways

                                as other religions work

                                their

                                magic on the numb, dumb,

                                fearful, and superstitious

                                masses.



                                Still, for Eckists who think

                                they can see beyond the

                                veil/void it's amazing to

                                see that they are quite

                                incapable of true change

                                and of discovering the

                                real path of TRUTH, and

                                of experiencing the art

                                of the obvious.



                                Truth has escaped these

                                Eckists and they will forever

                                remain a pawn of the KAL

                                and under Klemp's trance

                                of providing "sales service."



                                This, of course, benefits HK's

                                selfish motives, and, on the

                                other hand, it helps to give

                                Eckists a "higher" purpose.

                                This is why Klemp feels he

                                is doing no harm since it

                                provides of service for lost

                                Souls until they become advanced

                                enough to realize they don't

                                need a middleman.



                                However, the "catch" lies

                                within the promises made

                                and the innate desire of

                                soul to "Know" God and to

                                return Home again. Eckankar

                                manipulates this desire

                                with

                                "initiations" that are turned

                                into a KAL "Trap/Test."



                                However, Not Desiring Initiations

                                (via a pure heart) is another

                                trap/test that has merely been

                                disguised while the "desire"

                                remains hidden from outer

                                sight. Thus, it seems to be

                                okay to "imagine" (and still

                                desire)

                                higher initiations on

                                the "INNER" via the ruse of

                                needing a Mahanta for more

                                and more of these fake initiations

                                in order to expand consciousness

                                for more and more spiritual

                                progress.



                                Eckists are chasing their tails

                                via Twitchell's and Klemp's

                                rendition of circular logic and

                                thinking. How can Self-Mastery

                                and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished

                                in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp

                                is training Eckists to become

                                more and more Codependent

                                upon the Mahanta and their

                                desires and attachments?



                                Look at the ECK stories... they

                                all require the intercession and

                                help of the Mahanta. Eckists,

                                via

                                self-hypnosis and programming,

                                (attachment) are being taught

                                to call upon the Mahanta for

                                anything and everything.. . but

                                where is Soul and where is the

                                ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because

                                one mouthes certain "charged"

                                4th Plane words or thinks he/

                                she is "detached" doesn't make



                                it so!



                                What's interesting is that these

                                two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)

                                don't require money in order

                                to maintain (outer and Inner

                                initiations) a higher consciousness. ..

                                but Klemp does! Initiations aren't

                                needed! This is what structured

                                (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in

                                order to control groups of people.

                                I'm amazed that Eckists can't or

                                don't want to see the correlation

                                and connect-the- dots.



                                Why can't or won't Eckists connect-

                                the-dots? It probably has to do

                                with their feelings of being "Superior

                                Normal" and the delusion that

                                gives them "all the answers" in

                                order to alleviate their

                                doubts

                                and fears. The ego makes a better

                                servant than it does a master,

                                but with "initiations" and a "RESA

                                hierarchy" Eckists can't separate

                                ego from Soul.



                                Thus, when "Starting To Get It"

                                (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)

                                writes what she did, in the 09/2009

                                H.I.

                                Letter, one has to wonder...

                                What has Klemp been teaching

                                his followers since he's been

                                in charge?



                                Prometheus



                                realbizarretarzs wrote:



                                So true. I really enjoyed your

                                experiment.



                                I used to do that sort of stuff

                                until it became more sad than

                                amusing.



                                Also, a while back, I forgot

                                to mention the books of

                                Alan Watts, starting with

                                "The Way of Zen" and

                                "The Wisdom of Insecurity".



                                The second title, of course,

                                is a paradox, but one that

                                makes sense without having

                                to go too far into the book

                                to see what he is talking about.



                                One doesn't have to be necessarily

                                into Zen or even

                                Buddhism to

                                understand where he was coming

                                from.



                                His books are very easy to read

                                and are somewhat humorous.



                                Interestingly, he obtained

                                a master's degree in theology

                                and "divinity" but went on to

                                write twenty to thirty books

                                on Zen and Indian and

                                Chinese

                                philosophies, and the psychology

                                of religion, and the importance

                                of mysticism insofar as the

                                individual transcending man-

                                made religion.



                                whitemoby wrote:



                                Truth can never by systemized,

                                no matter how eloquently.



                                Moby



                                Rebazar Tarzs wrote:



                                In the story, Joseph Knecht,

                                after following instructions

                                to the letter, but not losing

                                his intuition, begins to question

                                everything, and comes to

                                see "Castilia" (or, insert your

                                favorite or not-so-favorite

                                community Utopia) as a kind

                                of ivory tower, oblivious to

                                real life, and thus, reality.



                                He begins to realize that,

                                after many years, and

                                many

                                relationships, Castilia is a

                                self-protected society that

                                does little, if anything, for

                                the world outside its borders,

                                and is burderned by a hierarchy

                                of personalities and games

                                people play.



                                I won't reveal any more than

                                this, in

                                case someone is

                                currently reading "Magister

                                Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"

                                but I will say this - throughout

                                the whole story, Bruce Willis

                                is dead.



                                What?!?



                                No, actually, the truth seeker,

                                Knecht (which, in German,

                                means servant and/or knight)

                                (or so the Germans would have

                                us believe) is, to the dumb-

                                foundment of his "superiors",

                                really looking for truth.



                                No substitutes.



                                I hope I didn't give away too

                                much, as the book is almost

                                600 pages long, but, actually,

                                I haven't, because there is

                                so much truth in the story

                                that everytime I re-read it,

                                I realize something new.



                                I know we used to say that

                                about certain

                                ECK books

                                (before Harold) but the

                                stuff that Paul took from

                                others is timeless as well.



                                What was kind of amusing

                                is that when I read the book

                                the first time, Darwin was

                                the "Master."



                                One of the first main characters



                                in the story is the "Music Master."



                                prometheus wrote:



                                Here's a review from Amazon.com

                                of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:



                                "What is the Glass Bead Game?

                                It is no less than the highest

                                reason that an entire future

                                civilization exists. It is the

                                grand and ongoing synthesis

                                of all knowledge into a unified,

                                integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)



                                It is an attempt to forge a

                                holographic intellectual world

                                where all is interconnected and

                                reflected in every part. This is

                                a mission to weave the golden

                                thread of significance and meaning

                                through every part of a culture-

                                science and the arts and the

                                spiritual are all unified into a

                                system of

                                concentric, interpenetrating

                                rings.



                                All this is primarily accomplished

                                by using the language of music

                                and mathematics as common

                                universal symbolism (the "glass

                                beads" are part of a symbolic

                                physical

                                aid that was once used

                                for this purpose.)



                                It is no wonder that the book

                                places the first origins of the

                                game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,

                                and Socratic ethics. No wonder

                                that the League of Journeyers

                                to the East also figure prominently

                                in its development. To some

                                extent the Game has been the

                                goal of all sensitive and introspective

                                individuals and groups down

                                through the ages.



                                All of this stands in stark contrast

                                to our own Feuilletonistic Age

                                where all knowledge, all culture,

                                is unsynthesized, chaotic, and

                                largely meaningless babble.



                                The crisis that develops from

                                this is that even if you accomplish

                                this grand synthesis in some isolated

                                ivory tower refuge of

                                intellectual

                                contemplatives- it isn't enough.



                                It is necessary to reach out to the

                                entire society once it is achieved

                                in the same way that a Bodhisattva

                                attempts to enlighten the rest

                                of

                                mankind instead of individually

                                passing onto Nirvana. The entire

                                society must be made whole and

                                sacred and not just an isolated elite.



                                This is the realization that comes

                                even to the Magister Ludi, the

                                Master of the Game.



                                For the game to be ultimately

                                meaningful we have to coach

                                everyone to eventually become

                                Masters."



                                ************ ********* ********* ****



                                Thus, another reason to justify religion!

                                Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/

                                outflow principle) be accomplished without

                                the religious strings attached? Not by

                                Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached

                                to their membership donations or else

                                they can lose

                                initiations!



                                Prometheus
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Etznab and All, I m wondering why or if Eckists have ever noticed that their religion is dualistic versus non-dualistic. And, have Eckists ever pondered
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello Etznab and All,
                                  I'm wondering why or if Eckists
                                  have ever noticed that their religion
                                  is dualistic versus non-dualistic.
                                  And, have Eckists ever pondered
                                  or contemplated on the differences
                                  between the two?

                                  With Klemp everything is black or
                                  white, pos. or neg., outer or inner,
                                  right or wrong, passion or virtue,
                                  low versus high.

                                  Myself... I don't see that these
                                  opposites have anything to do
                                  with the Divine. It's more about
                                  us and how religions have interpreted
                                  the Divine in order to analyze
                                  and explain or understand IT.


                                  Prometheus



                                  etznab wrote:


                                  I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.
                                  And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

                                  Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked
                                  similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I
                                  believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I
                                  saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed
                                  over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks
                                  similar in some ways, but different.

                                  http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html

                                  Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and
                                  Kapila.

                                  In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh
                                  are mentioned here.

                                  http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html

                                  It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak
                                  Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

                                  The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the
                                  teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number
                                  of similarities. IMO.

                                  The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are
                                  curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya
                                  philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show
                                  the order and sequence of creation.)

                                  The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

                                  It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for
                                  Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by
                                  Kabir.

                                  The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

                                  The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.

                                  http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                  The apparent tendency in both systems seems
                                  to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

                                  From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

                                  "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:
                                  When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was
                                  incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the
                                  body of Sat Purush â€" that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"

                                  http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                  I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described
                                  as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's
                                  story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,
                                  where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

                                  IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are
                                  the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths
                                  literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas
                                  that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal
                                  organized religious interpretations which may be far,
                                  far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-
                                  come disconnected from the true origins of their path
                                  appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"
                                  leading the "blind".

                                  As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

                                  See what I mean? :)

                                  For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)
                                  is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To
                                  look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

                                  Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and
                                  clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have
                                  visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't
                                  have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths
                                  except when they are taken literally and people don't see
                                  the difference between fiction and fact.

                                  Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can
                                  the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell
                                  from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

                                  I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from
                                  the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and
                                  keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same
                                  teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the
                                  lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

                                  Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-
                                  ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

                                  However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these
                                  stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.
                                  Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of
                                  them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those
                                  sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be
                                  they members of a particular religion or not - often have
                                  to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms
                                  of "torture" for speaking their minds.

                                  Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-
                                  pool and everything goes down the drain? :)

                                  Etznab
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