Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?

Expand Messages
  • Caldwell Jamie
    Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently.  Moby ________________________________ From: Rebazar Tarzs To:
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
       
      Moby


      From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?

       

      In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
      losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
      "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
      as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
       
      He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
      Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
      world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
      and games people play.
       
      I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
      "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
      the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
       
      What?!?
       
      No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
      servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
      is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
       
      No substitutes.
       
      I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
      long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
      that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
       
      I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
      but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
       
      What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
      Darwin was the "Master."
       
      One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
       
       
       
        

      --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
      Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM

       
      Here's a review from Amazon.com
      of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

      "What is the Glass Bead Game?
      It is no less than the highest
      reason that an entire future
      civilization exists. It is the
      grand and ongoing synthesis
      of all knowledge into a unified,
      integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

      It is an attempt to forge a
      holographic intellectual world
      where all is interconnected and
      reflected in every part. This is
      a mission to weave the golden
      thread of significance and meaning
      through every part of a culture-
      science and the arts and the
      spiritual are all unified into a
      system of concentric, interpenetrating
      rings.

      All this is primarily accomplished
      by using the language of music
      and mathematics as common
      universal symbolism (the "glass
      beads" are part of a symbolic
      physical aid that was once used
      for this purpose.)

      It is no wonder that the book
      places the first origins of the
      game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
      and Socratic ethics. No wonder
      that the League of Journeyers
      to the East also figure prominently
      in its development. To some
      extent the Game has been the
      goal of all sensitive and introspective
      individuals and groups down
      through the ages.

      All of this stands in stark contrast
      to our own Feuilletonistic Age
      where all knowledge, all culture,
      is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
      largely meaningless babble.

      The crisis that develops from
      this is that even if you accomplish
      this grand synthesis in some isolated
      ivory tower refuge of intellectual
      contemplatives- it isn't enough.

      It is necessary to reach out to the
      entire society once it is achieved
      in the same way that a Bodhisattva
      attempts to enlighten the rest of
      mankind instead of individually
      passing onto Nirvana. The entire
      society must be made whole and
      sacred and not just an isolated elite.

      This is the realization that comes
      even to the Magister Ludi, the
      Master of the Game.

      For the game to be ultimately
      meaningful we have to coach
      everyone to eventually become
      Masters."

      ************ ********* ********* ****

      Thus, another reason to justify religion!
      Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
      outflow principle) be accomplished without
      the religious strings attached? Not by
      Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
      to their membership donations or else
      they can lose initiations!

      Prometheus



    • Rebazar Tarzs
      So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.   I used to do that sort of stuff until it became  more sad than amusing.   Also, a while back, I  forgot to
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.
         
        I used to do that sort of stuff until it became 
        more sad than amusing.
         
        Also, a while back, I  forgot to mention the books of
        Alan Watts, starting with "The Way of Zen" and
        "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
         
        The second title, of course, is a paradox, but one that
        makes sense without having to go too far into the book
        to see what he is talking about.
         
        One doesn't have to be necessarily into Zen or even
        Buddhism to understand where he was coming from.
         
        His books are very easy to read and are somewhat humorous.
         
        Interestingly, he obtained a master's degree in theology and
        "divinity" but went on  to write twenty to thirty books on Zen
        and Indian and Chinese philosophies, and the psychology
        of religion, and the importance of mysticism insofar as the
        individual transcending man-made religion.    

        --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...> wrote:

        From: Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...>
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 3:26 PM

         
        Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
         
        Moby


        From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?

         
        In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
        losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
        "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
        as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
         
        He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
        Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
        world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
        and games people play.
         
        I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
        "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
        the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
         
        What?!?
         
        No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
        servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
        is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
         
        No substitutes.
         
        I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
        long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
        that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
         
        I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
        but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
         
        What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
        Darwin was the "Master."
         
        One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
         
         
         
          

        --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
        Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM

         
        Here's a review from Amazon.com
        of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

        "What is the Glass Bead Game?
        It is no less than the highest
        reason that an entire future
        civilization exists. It is the
        grand and ongoing synthesis
        of all knowledge into a unified,
        integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

        It is an attempt to forge a
        holographic intellectual world
        where all is interconnected and
        reflected in every part. This is
        a mission to weave the golden
        thread of significance and meaning
        through every part of a culture-
        science and the arts and the
        spiritual are all unified into a
        system of concentric, interpenetrating
        rings.

        All this is primarily accomplished
        by using the language of music
        and mathematics as common
        universal symbolism (the "glass
        beads" are part of a symbolic
        physical aid that was once used
        for this purpose.)

        It is no wonder that the book
        places the first origins of the
        game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
        and Socratic ethics. No wonder
        that the League of Journeyers
        to the East also figure prominently
        in its development. To some
        extent the Game has been the
        goal of all sensitive and introspective
        individuals and groups down
        through the ages.

        All of this stands in stark contrast
        to our own Feuilletonistic Age
        where all knowledge, all culture,
        is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
        largely meaningless babble.

        The crisis that develops from
        this is that even if you accomplish
        this grand synthesis in some isolated
        ivory tower refuge of intellectual
        contemplatives- it isn't enough.

        It is necessary to reach out to the
        entire society once it is achieved
        in the same way that a Bodhisattva
        attempts to enlighten the rest of
        mankind instead of individually
        passing onto Nirvana. The entire
        society must be made whole and
        sacred and not just an isolated elite.

        This is the realization that comes
        even to the Magister Ludi, the
        Master of the Game.

        For the game to be ultimately
        meaningful we have to coach
        everyone to eventually become
        Masters."

        ************ ********* ********* ****

        Thus, another reason to justify religion!
        Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
        outflow principle) be accomplished without
        the religious strings attached? Not by
        Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
        to their membership donations or else
        they can lose initiations!

        Prometheus




      • Moby
        Paul Twitchell himself once said, The most we can say about Truth is that is travels in a certain direction. And though he surely copied that from
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Paul Twitchell himself once said, "The most we can say about Truth is that is travels in a certain direction." And though he surely copied that from somewhere, it affected me nonetheless. Too bad Eckankar went on to define Truth and Freedom right out of existence.

          I didn't do that experiment to be cruel, but to actually confirm something for myself. Eckists (at least, many of them) have unconsciosly "attached" to some nebulous, self serving notion of "Eckankar". You cannot use reason against so blind a motivation.

          Alan Watts has long been on my reading list. I may just move him up in the rotation.

          Moby....




          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...> wrote:
          >
          > So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.
          >  
          > I used to do that sort of stuff until it became 
          > more sad than amusing.
          >  
          > Also, a while back, I  forgot to mention the books of
          > Alan Watts, starting with "The Way of Zen" and
          > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
          >  
          > The second title, of course, is a paradox, but one that
          > makes sense without having to go too far into the book
          > to see what he is talking about.
          >  
          > One doesn't have to be necessarily into Zen or even
          > Buddhism to understand where he was coming from.
          >  
          > His books are very easy to read and are somewhat humorous.
          >  
          > Interestingly, he obtained a master's degree in theology and
          > "divinity" but went on  to write twenty to thirty books on Zen
          > and Indian and Chinese philosophies, and the psychology
          > of religion, and the importance of mysticism insofar as the
          > individual transcending man-made religion.    
          >
          > --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...>
          > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 3:26 PM
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
          >  
          > Moby
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          > Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
          > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
          > losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
          > "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
          > as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
          >  
          > He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
          > Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
          > world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
          > and games people play.
          >  
          > I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
          > "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
          > the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
          >  
          > What?!?
          >  
          > No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
          > servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
          > is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
          >  
          > No substitutes.
          >  
          > I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
          > long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
          > that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
          >  
          > I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
          > but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
          >  
          > What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
          > Darwin was the "Master."
          >  
          > One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
          >  
          >  
          >  
          >   
          >
          > --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          > Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          > Here's a review from Amazon.com
          > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
          >
          > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
          > It is no less than the highest
          > reason that an entire future
          > civilization exists. It is the
          > grand and ongoing synthesis
          > of all knowledge into a unified,
          > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
          >
          > It is an attempt to forge a
          > holographic intellectual world
          > where all is interconnected and
          > reflected in every part. This is
          > a mission to weave the golden
          > thread of significance and meaning
          > through every part of a culture-
          > science and the arts and the
          > spiritual are all unified into a
          > system of concentric, interpenetrating
          > rings.
          >
          > All this is primarily accomplished
          > by using the language of music
          > and mathematics as common
          > universal symbolism (the "glass
          > beads" are part of a symbolic
          > physical aid that was once used
          > for this purpose.)
          >
          > It is no wonder that the book
          > places the first origins of the
          > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
          > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
          > that the League of Journeyers
          > to the East also figure prominently
          > in its development. To some
          > extent the Game has been the
          > goal of all sensitive and introspective
          > individuals and groups down
          > through the ages.
          >
          > All of this stands in stark contrast
          > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
          > where all knowledge, all culture,
          > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
          > largely meaningless babble.
          >
          > The crisis that develops from
          > this is that even if you accomplish
          > this grand synthesis in some isolated
          > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
          > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
          >
          > It is necessary to reach out to the
          > entire society once it is achieved
          > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
          > attempts to enlighten the rest of
          > mankind instead of individually
          > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
          > society must be made whole and
          > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
          >
          > This is the realization that comes
          > even to the Magister Ludi, the
          > Master of the Game.
          >
          > For the game to be ultimately
          > meaningful we have to coach
          > everyone to eventually become
          > Masters."
          >
          > ************ ********* ********* ****
          >
          > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
          > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
          > outflow principle) be accomplished without
          > the religious strings attached? Not by
          > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
          > to their membership donations or else
          > they can lose initiations!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
        • Rebazar Tarzs
          A person who is a fanatic in matters of religion, and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe, becomes a person who has no faith ...
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            "A person who is a fanatic in matters of religion,
            and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God
            and the universe, becomes a person who has no
            faith ... True faith is to let go, and become open to truth,
            whatever it might turn out  to be ... But at any rate,
            the point is that God is what nobody admits to being,
            and everybody really is."
             
            -  Alan Watts
             
            It seems that Shams of Tabriz a/k/a Shams-i-Tabriz
            a/k/a Shamus-i-Tabriz, was saying the same thing.
             
            There is one discourse in which Paul says that he didn't
            know any of the "ECK Masters" until after he translated.
             
            He was the "Mahanta" and didn't know it.
             
            In other words, he didn't need any help from middle men.  
             
            Rumi accepted him as a guide, as would any intelligent
            seeker of truth, although most of Rumi's followers thought
            he was crazy for doing so. Of course, he did was he thought
            was best.    
             
            As Paul once said, "One learns by being around one who knows."   

            --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Moby <whitemoby22@...> wrote:

            From: Moby <whitemoby22@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 5:27 PM

             
            Paul Twitchell himself once said, "The most we can say about Truth is that is travels in a certain direction." And though he surely copied that from somewhere, it affected me nonetheless. Too bad Eckankar went on to define Truth and Freedom right out of existence.

            I didn't do that experiment to be cruel, but to actually confirm something for myself. Eckists (at least, many of them) have unconsciosly "attached" to some nebulous, self serving notion of "Eckankar". You cannot use reason against so blind a motivation.

            Alan Watts has long been on my reading list. I may just move him up in the rotation.

            Moby....

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.
            >  
            > I used to do that sort of stuff until it became 
            > more sad than amusing.
            >  
            > Also, a while back, I  forgot to mention the books of
            > Alan Watts, starting with "The Way of Zen" and
            > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
            >  
            > The second title, of course, is a paradox, but one that
            > makes sense without having to go too far into the book
            > to see what he is talking about.
            >  
            > One doesn't have to be necessarily into Zen or even
            > Buddhism to understand where he was coming from.
            >  
            > His books are very easy to read and are somewhat humorous.
            >  
            > Interestingly, he obtained a master's degree in theology and
            > "divinity" but went on  to write twenty to thirty books on Zen
            > and Indian and Chinese philosophies, and the psychology
            > of religion, and the importance of mysticism insofar as the
            > individual transcending man-made religion.    
            >
            > --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@ ...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@ ...>
            > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
            > Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 3:26 PM
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
            >  
            > Moby
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
            > Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
            > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
            > losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
            > "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
            > as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
            >  
            > He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
            > Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
            > world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
            > and games people play.
            >  
            > I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
            > "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
            > the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
            >  
            > What?!?
            >  
            > No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
            > servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
            > is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
            >  
            > No substitutes.
            >  
            > I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
            > long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
            > that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
            >  
            > I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
            > but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
            >  
            > What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
            > Darwin was the "Master."
            >  
            > One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >   
            >
            > --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
            > Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            > Here's a review from Amazon.com
            > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
            >
            > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
            > It is no less than the highest
            > reason that an entire future
            > civilization exists. It is the
            > grand and ongoing synthesis
            > of all knowledge into a unified,
            > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
            >
            > It is an attempt to forge a
            > holographic intellectual world
            > where all is interconnected and
            > reflected in every part. This is
            > a mission to weave the golden
            > thread of significance and meaning
            > through every part of a culture-
            > science and the arts and the
            > spiritual are all unified into a
            > system of concentric, interpenetrating
            > rings.
            >
            > All this is primarily accomplished
            > by using the language of music
            > and mathematics as common
            > universal symbolism (the "glass
            > beads" are part of a symbolic
            > physical aid that was once used
            > for this purpose.)
            >
            > It is no wonder that the book
            > places the first origins of the
            > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
            > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
            > that the League of Journeyers
            > to the East also figure prominently
            > in its development. To some
            > extent the Game has been the
            > goal of all sensitive and introspective
            > individuals and groups down
            > through the ages.
            >
            > All of this stands in stark contrast
            > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
            > where all knowledge, all culture,
            > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
            > largely meaningless babble.
            >
            > The crisis that develops from
            > this is that even if you accomplish
            > this grand synthesis in some isolated
            > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
            > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
            >
            > It is necessary to reach out to the
            > entire society once it is achieved
            > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
            > attempts to enlighten the rest of
            > mankind instead of individually
            > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
            > society must be made whole and
            > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
            >
            > This is the realization that comes
            > even to the Magister Ludi, the
            > Master of the Game.
            >
            > For the game to be ultimately
            > meaningful we have to coach
            > everyone to eventually become
            > Masters."
            >
            > ************ ********* ********* ****
            >
            > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
            > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
            > outflow principle) be accomplished without
            > the religious strings attached? Not by
            > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
            > to their membership donations or else
            > they can lose initiations!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >


          • prometheus_973
            Hello All, Thanks for sharing your comments and the info about these books! As far as transcending religion it seems that this is what we thought we were
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello All,
              Thanks for sharing your
              comments and the info
              about these books!

              As far as "transcending
              religion" it seems that this
              is what we thought we were
              doing when we joined the
              "path" of Eckankar way back
              when.

              Early on, Eckankar seemed
              to have a certain mystique
              about it. The reality, now,
              is that it was never what we
              imagined or desired. This
              PT/HK consciousness is based
              upon delusions, lies, and
              manipulations frozen
              in time as meaningless and
              imagined experiences and
              dreams via Klemp's over-
              simplified and mind numbing
              hypnotic message. This is
              the "real" reason people fall
              asleep during his talks! And,
              there's No spiritual meat
              (protein)!

              The Eckankar message is
              merely a redundancy and
              regurgitation of empty 2nd
              and 4th Plane thoughts and
              words.

              PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
              Westernized rewrite of the
              Eastern thoughts and dogmas
              once borrowed and plagiarized
              (compiled) from Sant Mat
              religions (etc.), and from
              more knowledgeable/
              enlightened people by
              the trickster Twitchell.

              HK's EK "path" has not only
              become Christianized, but
              has also been exposed as
              just another "Feel Good"
              religious sect that preaches
              one thing and does another!
              It's a Codependent scam!

              Thus, the Klemps' egos
              are feeling pretty good
              right now and the "trickle-
              down effect" is still sustaining
              their EK followers/sheep/
              chickens in the same ways
              as other religions work their
              magic on the numb, dumb,
              fearful, and superstitious
              masses.

              Still, for Eckists who think
              they can see beyond the
              veil/void it's amazing to
              see that they are quite
              incapable of true change
              and of discovering the
              real path of TRUTH, and
              of experiencing the art
              of the obvious.

              Truth has escaped these
              Eckists and they will forever
              remain a pawn of the KAL
              and under Klemp's trance
              of providing "sales service."

              This, of course, benefits HK's
              selfish motives, and, on the
              other hand, it helps to give
              Eckists a "higher" purpose.
              This is why Klemp feels he
              is doing no harm since it
              provides of service for lost
              Souls until they become advanced
              enough to realize they don't
              need a middleman.

              However, the "catch" lies
              within the promises made
              and the innate desire of
              soul to "Know" God and to
              return Home again. Eckankar
              manipulates this desire with
              "initiations" that are turned
              into a KAL "Trap/Test."

              However, Not Desiring Initiations
              (via a pure heart) is another
              trap/test that has merely been
              disguised while the "desire"
              remains hidden from outer
              sight. Thus, it seems to be
              okay to "imagine" (and still
              desire) higher initiations on
              the "INNER" via the ruse of
              needing a Mahanta for more
              and more of these fake initiations
              in order to expand consciousness
              for more and more spiritual
              progress.

              Eckists are chasing their tails
              via Twitchell's and Klemp's
              rendition of circular logic and
              thinking. How can Self-Mastery
              and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
              in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
              is training Eckists to become
              more and more Codependent
              upon the Mahanta and their
              desires and attachments?

              Look at the ECK stories... they
              all require the intercession and
              help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
              via self-hypnosis and programming,
              (attachment) are being taught
              to call upon the Mahanta for
              anything and everything... but
              where is Soul and where is the
              ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
              one mouthes certain "charged"
              4th Plane words or thinks he/
              she is "detached" doesn't make
              it so!

              What's interesting is that these
              two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
              don't require money in order
              to maintain (outer and Inner
              initiations) a higher consciousness...
              but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
              needed! This is what structured
              (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
              order to control groups of people.
              I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
              don't want to see the correlation
              and connect-the-dots.

              Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
              the-dots? It probably has to do
              with their feelings of being "Superior
              Normal" and the delusion that
              gives them "all the answers" in
              order to alleviate their doubts
              and fears. The ego makes a better
              servant than it does a master,
              but with "initiations" and a "RESA
              hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
              ego from Soul.

              Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
              (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
              writes what she did, in the 09/2009
              H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
              What has Klemp been teaching
              his followers since he's been
              in charge?

              Prometheus

              realbizarretarzs wrote:

              So true. I really enjoyed your
              experiment.

              I used to do that sort of stuff
              until it became more sad than
              amusing.

              Also, a while back, I forgot
              to mention the books of
              Alan Watts, starting with
              "The Way of Zen" and
              "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

              The second title, of course,
              is a paradox, but one that
              makes sense without having
              to go too far into the book
              to see what he is talking about.

              One doesn't have to be necessarily
              into Zen or even Buddhism to
              understand where he was coming
              from.

              His books are very easy to read
              and are somewhat humorous.

              Interestingly, he obtained
              a master's degree in theology
              and "divinity" but went on to
              write twenty to thirty books
              on Zen and Indian and Chinese
              philosophies, and the psychology
              of religion, and the importance
              of mysticism insofar as the
              individual transcending man-
              made religion.


              whitemoby wrote:


              Truth can never by systemized,
              no matter how eloquently.

              Moby

              Rebazar Tarzs wrote:


              In the story, Joseph Knecht,
              after following instructions
              to the letter, but not losing
              his intuition, begins to question
              everything, and comes to
              see "Castilia" (or, insert your
              favorite or not-so-favorite
              community Utopia) as a kind
              of ivory tower, oblivious to
              real life, and thus, reality.

              He begins to realize that,
              after many years, and many
              relationships, Castilia is a
              self-protected society that
              does little, if anything, for
              the world outside its borders,
              and is burderned by a hierarchy
              of personalities and games
              people play.

              I won't reveal any more than
              this, in case someone is
              currently reading "Magister
              Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
              but I will say this - throughout
              the whole story, Bruce Willis
              is dead.

              What?!?

              No, actually, the truth seeker,
              Knecht (which, in German,
              means servant and/or knight)
              (or so the Germans would have
              us believe) is, to the dumb-
              foundment of his "superiors",
              really looking for truth.

              No substitutes.

              I hope I didn't give away too
              much, as the book is almost
              600 pages long, but, actually,
              I haven't, because there is
              so much truth in the story
              that everytime I re-read it,
              I realize something new.

              I know we used to say that
              about certain ECK books
              (before Harold) but the
              stuff that Paul took from
              others is timeless as well.

              What was kind of amusing
              is that when I read the book
              the first time, Darwin was
              the "Master."

              One of the first main characters
              in the story is the "Music Master."


              prometheus wrote:

              Here's a review from Amazon.com
              of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

              "What is the Glass Bead Game?
              It is no less than the highest
              reason that an entire future
              civilization exists. It is the
              grand and ongoing synthesis
              of all knowledge into a unified,
              integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

              It is an attempt to forge a
              holographic intellectual world
              where all is interconnected and
              reflected in every part. This is
              a mission to weave the golden
              thread of significance and meaning
              through every part of a culture-
              science and the arts and the
              spiritual are all unified into a
              system of concentric, interpenetrating
              rings.

              All this is primarily accomplished
              by using the language of music
              and mathematics as common
              universal symbolism (the "glass
              beads" are part of a symbolic
              physical aid that was once used
              for this purpose.)

              It is no wonder that the book
              places the first origins of the
              game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
              and Socratic ethics. No wonder
              that the League of Journeyers
              to the East also figure prominently
              in its development. To some
              extent the Game has been the
              goal of all sensitive and introspective
              individuals and groups down
              through the ages.

              All of this stands in stark contrast
              to our own Feuilletonistic Age
              where all knowledge, all culture,
              is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
              largely meaningless babble.

              The crisis that develops from
              this is that even if you accomplish
              this grand synthesis in some isolated
              ivory tower refuge of intellectual
              contemplatives- it isn't enough.

              It is necessary to reach out to the
              entire society once it is achieved
              in the same way that a Bodhisattva
              attempts to enlighten the rest of
              mankind instead of individually
              passing onto Nirvana. The entire
              society must be made whole and
              sacred and not just an isolated elite.

              This is the realization that comes
              even to the Magister Ludi, the
              Master of the Game.

              For the game to be ultimately
              meaningful we have to coach
              everyone to eventually become
              Masters."

              **********************************

              Thus, another reason to justify religion!
              Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
              outflow principle) be accomplished without
              the religious strings attached? Not by
              Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
              to their membership donations or else
              they can lose initiations!

              Prometheus
            • Rebazar Tarzs
              Hi there!   The intercession part is the part I really don t understand!   Because of Key To Secret Worlds and the previously published short articles
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi there!
                 
                The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                 
                Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                point.
                 
                I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's son,
                but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in the margins
                of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in order
                to have any kind of relationship with Spirit.
                 
                And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                 
                How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                 
                And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                 
                It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                 
                That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                 
                And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                throughout history.
                 
                Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                 
                I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                 
                If things go well, it is because of Harold. If not, it is because
                the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                 
                Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                 
                Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                 
                Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                 
                Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences", but fear of the
                unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                 
                They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                 
                With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                are in Eckankar.
                 
                What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations"!
                 
                What could be worse than that? 
                 
                Or being "demoted" as a person in any way?
                 
                They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                 
                They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                but it is psychological.
                 
                Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                 
                The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                 
                But you knew that!
                 
                 
                 
                         
                 
                       

                --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

                 
                Hello All,
                Thanks for sharing your
                comments and the info
                about these books!

                As far as "transcending
                religion" it seems that this
                is what we thought we were
                doing when we joined the
                "path" of Eckankar way back
                when.

                Early on, Eckankar seemed
                to have a certain mystique
                about it. The reality, now,
                is that it was never what we
                imagined or desired. This
                PT/HK consciousness is based
                upon delusions, lies, and
                manipulations frozen
                in time as meaningless and
                imagined experiences and
                dreams via Klemp's over-
                simplified and mind numbing
                hypnotic message. This is
                the "real" reason people fall
                asleep during his talks! And,
                there's No spiritual meat
                (protein)!

                The Eckankar message is
                merely a redundancy and
                regurgitation of empty 2nd
                and 4th Plane thoughts and
                words.

                PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                Westernized rewrite of the
                Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                once borrowed and plagiarized
                (compiled) from Sant Mat
                religions (etc.), and from
                more knowledgeable/
                enlightened people by
                the trickster Twitchell.

                HK's EK "path" has not only
                become Christianized, but
                has also been exposed as
                just another "Feel Good"
                religious sect that preaches
                one thing and does another!
                It's a Codependent scam!

                Thus, the Klemps' egos
                are feeling pretty good
                right now and the "trickle-
                down effect" is still sustaining
                their EK followers/sheep/
                chickens in the same ways
                as other religions work their
                magic on the numb, dumb,
                fearful, and superstitious
                masses.

                Still, for Eckists who think
                they can see beyond the
                veil/void it's amazing to
                see that they are quite
                incapable of true change
                and of discovering the
                real path of TRUTH, and
                of experiencing the art
                of the obvious.

                Truth has escaped these
                Eckists and they will forever
                remain a pawn of the KAL
                and under Klemp's trance
                of providing "sales service."

                This, of course, benefits HK's
                selfish motives, and, on the
                other hand, it helps to give
                Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                This is why Klemp feels he
                is doing no harm since it
                provides of service for lost
                Souls until they become advanced
                enough to realize they don't
                need a middleman.

                However, the "catch" lies
                within the promises made
                and the innate desire of
                soul to "Know" God and to
                return Home again. Eckankar
                manipulates this desire with
                "initiations" that are turned
                into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                However, Not Desiring Initiations
                (via a pure heart) is another
                trap/test that has merely been
                disguised while the "desire"
                remains hidden from outer
                sight. Thus, it seems to be
                okay to "imagine" (and still
                desire) higher initiations on
                the "INNER" via the ruse of
                needing a Mahanta for more
                and more of these fake initiations
                in order to expand consciousness
                for more and more spiritual
                progress.

                Eckists are chasing their tails
                via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                rendition of circular logic and
                thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                is training Eckists to become
                more and more Codependent
                upon the Mahanta and their
                desires and attachments?

                Look at the ECK stories... they
                all require the intercession and
                help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                via self-hypnosis and programming,
                (attachment) are being taught
                to call upon the Mahanta for
                anything and everything.. . but
                where is Soul and where is the
                ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                one mouthes certain "charged"
                4th Plane words or thinks he/
                she is "detached" doesn't make
                it so!

                What's interesting is that these
                two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                don't require money in order
                to maintain (outer and Inner
                initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                needed! This is what structured
                (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                order to control groups of people.
                I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                don't want to see the correlation
                and connect-the- dots.

                Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                the-dots? It probably has to do
                with their feelings of being "Superior
                Normal" and the delusion that
                gives them "all the answers" in
                order to alleviate their doubts
                and fears. The ego makes a better
                servant than it does a master,
                but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                ego from Soul.

                Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                What has Klemp been teaching
                his followers since he's been
                in charge?

                Prometheus

                realbizarretarzs wrote:

                So true. I really enjoyed your
                experiment.

                I used to do that sort of stuff
                until it became more sad than
                amusing.

                Also, a while back, I forgot
                to mention the books of
                Alan Watts, starting with
                "The Way of Zen" and
                "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                The second title, of course,
                is a paradox, but one that
                makes sense without having
                to go too far into the book
                to see what he is talking about.

                One doesn't have to be necessarily
                into Zen or even Buddhism to
                understand where he was coming
                from.

                His books are very easy to read
                and are somewhat humorous.

                Interestingly, he obtained
                a master's degree in theology
                and "divinity" but went on to
                write twenty to thirty books
                on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                philosophies, and the psychology
                of religion, and the importance
                of mysticism insofar as the
                individual transcending man-
                made religion.

                whitemoby wrote:

                Truth can never by systemized,
                no matter how eloquently.

                Moby

                Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                after following instructions
                to the letter, but not losing
                his intuition, begins to question
                everything, and comes to
                see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                favorite or not-so-favorite
                community Utopia) as a kind
                of ivory tower, oblivious to
                real life, and thus, reality.

                He begins to realize that,
                after many years, and many
                relationships, Castilia is a
                self-protected society that
                does little, if anything, for
                the world outside its borders,
                and is burderned by a hierarchy
                of personalities and games
                people play.

                I won't reveal any more than
                this, in case someone is
                currently reading "Magister
                Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                but I will say this - throughout
                the whole story, Bruce Willis
                is dead.

                What?!?

                No, actually, the truth seeker,
                Knecht (which, in German,
                means servant and/or knight)
                (or so the Germans would have
                us believe) is, to the dumb-
                foundment of his "superiors",
                really looking for truth.

                No substitutes.

                I hope I didn't give away too
                much, as the book is almost
                600 pages long, but, actually,
                I haven't, because there is
                so much truth in the story
                that everytime I re-read it,
                I realize something new.

                I know we used to say that
                about certain ECK books
                (before Harold) but the
                stuff that Paul took from
                others is timeless as well.

                What was kind of amusing
                is that when I read the book
                the first time, Darwin was
                the "Master."

                One of the first main characters
                in the story is the "Music Master."


                prometheus wrote:

                Here's a review from Amazon.com
                of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                It is no less than the highest
                reason that an entire future
                civilization exists. It is the
                grand and ongoing synthesis
                of all knowledge into a unified,
                integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                It is an attempt to forge a
                holographic intellectual world
                where all is interconnected and
                reflected in every part. This is
                a mission to weave the golden
                thread of significance and meaning
                through every part of a culture-
                science and the arts and the
                spiritual are all unified into a
                system of concentric, interpenetrating
                rings.

                All this is primarily accomplished
                by using the language of music
                and mathematics as common
                universal symbolism (the "glass
                beads" are part of a symbolic
                physical aid that was once used
                for this purpose.)

                It is no wonder that the book
                places the first origins of the
                game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                that the League of Journeyers
                to the East also figure prominently
                in its development. To some
                extent the Game has been the
                goal of all sensitive and introspective
                individuals and groups down
                through the ages.

                All of this stands in stark contrast
                to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                where all knowledge, all culture,
                is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                largely meaningless babble.

                The crisis that develops from
                this is that even if you accomplish
                this grand synthesis in some isolated
                ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                It is necessary to reach out to the
                entire society once it is achieved
                in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                attempts to enlighten the rest of
                mankind instead of individually
                passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                society must be made whole and
                sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                This is the realization that comes
                even to the Magister Ludi, the
                Master of the Game.

                For the game to be ultimately
                meaningful we have to coach
                everyone to eventually become
                Masters."

                ************ ********* ********* ****

                Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                outflow principle) be accomplished without
                the religious strings attached? Not by
                Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                to their membership donations or else
                they can lose initiations!

                Prometheus


              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, In the Catholic Church there are all types within the spiritual hierarchy that can intercede with God on the behalf of man. Twitchell and Klemp
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello All,
                  In the Catholic Church there
                  are all types within the "spiritual
                  hierarchy" that can intercede
                  with God on the behalf of man.
                  Twitchell and Klemp merely
                  copied this as well and added
                  EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                  http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6146

                  The thing about doing research
                  on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                  version (with "c" added) along
                  with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                  more than 50 years ago!

                  This No Contact is strange
                  (not really) since Rebazar has
                  been around for 500 years, in
                  the same physical body, and
                  even sailed with Columbus
                  (according to Klemp)!

                  Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                  mentioning REBAZAR (the
                  Torchbearer) by name nor
                  is there anything written by
                  RT (in his own hand) for 500
                  years!

                  And, since Rebazar does
                  (supposedly) have a 500
                  year old physical body why
                  didn't he show up before and
                  after Twit died versus Gail
                  having to use a dream from
                  Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?

                  Why hasn't RT shown up at
                  an EK Seminar in all of these
                  years and given a talk? Is he
                  too good for that?

                  If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                  isn't too good or too "high"
                  to give a Seminar talk why
                  can't Rebazar appear and
                  give one too? He is a physical
                  being, still! Thus, RT should
                  be expected to show up every
                  now and then. But... he hasn't
                  ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                  dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                  it because he pissed HK off by
                  never showing up at an EK Seminar!

                  Prometheus

                  realbizarretarzs wrote:

                  Hi there!

                  The intercession part is the
                  part I really don't understand!

                  Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                  and the previously published short
                  articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                  Free," I was at odds with my
                  Presbyterian minister while taking
                  confirmation classes (not my idea,
                  of course, but my parents' idea of
                  a good time) over this very point.

                  I got the highest grades on everything,
                  even higher than the minister's son,
                  but the minister was always trying
                  to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                  the margins of my essays, that
                  intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                  necessary in order to have any kind
                  of relationship with Spirit.

                  And I agree with you about everything
                  else you just said. Was Paul paying
                  Rebazar $160.00 a year?

                  How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

                  And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

                  It's funny that you mention connecting
                  the dots.

                  That is when I began to discover the
                  books we weren't supposed to know
                  about. In the nineties I was trying to
                  connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                  of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                  least 5,000 years B.C.

                  And by doing so, I was also researching
                  "EK" and "HU" throughout history.

                  Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

                  I think it is just a big psychological
                  circus that takes place, say, for an
                  example, at a major seminar. People
                  get all psychologically open to auto-
                  suggestion.

                  If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                  If not, it is because the chela has not
                  been doing his or her "homework."

                  Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

                  Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

                  Harold can dish it out both ways.
                  And eat the cake himself.

                  Again, just like with most religions,
                  people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                  fear, not just fear of the "consequences",
                  but fear of the unknown - something
                  they are supposed to be conquering
                  BECAUSE of Eckankar!

                  They can't because they are clinging
                  to the known world. Their little world
                  of "Super Normal" people.

                  With alot of these people, most or
                  all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.

                  What would they think? And the
                  idea of letting others "below" or
                  "beneath" them passing them up
                  in "initiations"!

                  What could be worse than that?

                  Or being "demoted" as a person
                  in any way?

                  They give all their power to the
                  heirarchy.

                  They are powerless to help themselves.
                  Not really, of course, but it is psychological.

                  Whatever happened to power,
                  wisdom and freedom?

                  The answer, my friend, is blowing
                  in the wind.

                  But you knew that!



                  prometheus wrote:

                  Hello All,
                  Thanks for sharing your
                  comments and the info
                  about these books!

                  As far as "transcending
                  religion" it seems that this
                  is what we thought we were
                  doing when we joined the
                  "path" of Eckankar way back
                  when.

                  Early on, Eckankar seemed
                  to have a certain mystique
                  about it. The reality, now,
                  is that it was never what we
                  imagined or desired. This
                  PT/HK consciousness is based
                  upon delusions, lies, and
                  manipulations frozen
                  in time as meaningless and
                  imagined experiences and
                  dreams via Klemp's over-
                  simplified and mind numbing
                  hypnotic message. This is
                  the "real" reason people fall
                  asleep during his talks! And,
                  there's No spiritual meat
                  (protein)!

                  The Eckankar message is
                  merely a redundancy and
                  regurgitation of empty 2nd
                  and 4th Plane thoughts and
                  words.

                  PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                  Westernized rewrite of the
                  Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                  once borrowed and plagiarized
                  (compiled) from Sant Mat
                  religions (etc.), and from
                  more knowledgeable/
                  enlightened people by
                  the trickster Twitchell.

                  HK's EK "path" has not only
                  become Christianized, but
                  has also been exposed as
                  just another "Feel Good"
                  religious sect that preaches
                  one thing and does another!
                  It's a Codependent scam!

                  Thus, the Klemps' egos
                  are feeling pretty good
                  right now and the "trickle-
                  down effect" is still sustaining
                  their EK followers/sheep/
                  chickens in the same ways
                  as other religions work their
                  magic on the numb, dumb,
                  fearful, and superstitious
                  masses.

                  Still, for Eckists who think
                  they can see beyond the
                  veil/void it's amazing to
                  see that they are quite
                  incapable of true change
                  and of discovering the
                  real path of TRUTH, and
                  of experiencing the art
                  of the obvious.

                  Truth has escaped these
                  Eckists and they will forever
                  remain a pawn of the KAL
                  and under Klemp's trance
                  of providing "sales service."

                  This, of course, benefits HK's
                  selfish motives, and, on the
                  other hand, it helps to give
                  Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                  This is why Klemp feels he
                  is doing no harm since it
                  provides of service for lost
                  Souls until they become advanced
                  enough to realize they don't
                  need a middleman.

                  However, the "catch" lies
                  within the promises made
                  and the innate desire of
                  soul to "Know" God and to
                  return Home again. Eckankar
                  manipulates this desire with
                  "initiations" that are turned
                  into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                  However, Not Desiring Initiations
                  (via a pure heart) is another
                  trap/test that has merely been
                  disguised while the "desire"
                  remains hidden from outer
                  sight. Thus, it seems to be
                  okay to "imagine" (and still
                  desire) higher initiations on
                  the "INNER" via the ruse of
                  needing a Mahanta for more
                  and more of these fake initiations
                  in order to expand consciousness
                  for more and more spiritual
                  progress.

                  Eckists are chasing their tails
                  via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                  rendition of circular logic and
                  thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                  and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                  in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                  is training Eckists to become
                  more and more Codependent
                  upon the Mahanta and their
                  desires and attachments?

                  Look at the ECK stories... they
                  all require the intercession and
                  help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                  via self-hypnosis and programming,
                  (attachment) are being taught
                  to call upon the Mahanta for
                  anything and everything.. . but
                  where is Soul and where is the
                  ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                  one mouthes certain "charged"
                  4th Plane words or thinks he/
                  she is "detached" doesn't make
                  it so!

                  What's interesting is that these
                  two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                  don't require money in order
                  to maintain (outer and Inner
                  initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                  but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                  needed! This is what structured
                  (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                  order to control groups of people.
                  I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                  don't want to see the correlation
                  and connect-the- dots.

                  Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                  the-dots? It probably has to do
                  with their feelings of being "Superior
                  Normal" and the delusion that
                  gives them "all the answers" in
                  order to alleviate their doubts
                  and fears. The ego makes a better
                  servant than it does a master,
                  but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                  hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                  ego from Soul.

                  Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                  (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                  writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                  H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                  What has Klemp been teaching
                  his followers since he's been
                  in charge?

                  Prometheus

                  realbizarretarzs wrote:

                  So true. I really enjoyed your
                  experiment.

                  I used to do that sort of stuff
                  until it became more sad than
                  amusing.

                  Also, a while back, I forgot
                  to mention the books of
                  Alan Watts, starting with
                  "The Way of Zen" and
                  "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                  The second title, of course,
                  is a paradox, but one that
                  makes sense without having
                  to go too far into the book
                  to see what he is talking about.

                  One doesn't have to be necessarily
                  into Zen or even Buddhism to
                  understand where he was coming
                  from.

                  His books are very easy to read
                  and are somewhat humorous.

                  Interestingly, he obtained
                  a master's degree in theology
                  and "divinity" but went on to
                  write twenty to thirty books
                  on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                  philosophies, and the psychology
                  of religion, and the importance
                  of mysticism insofar as the
                  individual transcending man-
                  made religion.

                  whitemoby wrote:

                  Truth can never by systemized,
                  no matter how eloquently.

                  Moby

                  Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                  In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                  after following instructions
                  to the letter, but not losing
                  his intuition, begins to question
                  everything, and comes to
                  see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                  favorite or not-so-favorite
                  community Utopia) as a kind
                  of ivory tower, oblivious to
                  real life, and thus, reality.

                  He begins to realize that,
                  after many years, and many
                  relationships, Castilia is a
                  self-protected society that
                  does little, if anything, for
                  the world outside its borders,
                  and is burderned by a hierarchy
                  of personalities and games
                  people play.

                  I won't reveal any more than
                  this, in case someone is
                  currently reading "Magister
                  Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                  but I will say this - throughout
                  the whole story, Bruce Willis
                  is dead.

                  What?!?

                  No, actually, the truth seeker,
                  Knecht (which, in German,
                  means servant and/or knight)
                  (or so the Germans would have
                  us believe) is, to the dumb-
                  foundment of his "superiors",
                  really looking for truth.

                  No substitutes.

                  I hope I didn't give away too
                  much, as the book is almost
                  600 pages long, but, actually,
                  I haven't, because there is
                  so much truth in the story
                  that everytime I re-read it,
                  I realize something new.

                  I know we used to say that
                  about certain ECK books
                  (before Harold) but the
                  stuff that Paul took from
                  others is timeless as well.

                  What was kind of amusing
                  is that when I read the book
                  the first time, Darwin was
                  the "Master."

                  One of the first main characters
                  in the story is the "Music Master."


                  prometheus wrote:

                  Here's a review from Amazon.com
                  of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                  "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                  It is no less than the highest
                  reason that an entire future
                  civilization exists. It is the
                  grand and ongoing synthesis
                  of all knowledge into a unified,
                  integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                  It is an attempt to forge a
                  holographic intellectual world
                  where all is interconnected and
                  reflected in every part. This is
                  a mission to weave the golden
                  thread of significance and meaning
                  through every part of a culture-
                  science and the arts and the
                  spiritual are all unified into a
                  system of concentric, interpenetrating
                  rings.

                  All this is primarily accomplished
                  by using the language of music
                  and mathematics as common
                  universal symbolism (the "glass
                  beads" are part of a symbolic
                  physical aid that was once used
                  for this purpose.)

                  It is no wonder that the book
                  places the first origins of the
                  game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                  and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                  that the League of Journeyers
                  to the East also figure prominently
                  in its development. To some
                  extent the Game has been the
                  goal of all sensitive and introspective
                  individuals and groups down
                  through the ages.

                  All of this stands in stark contrast
                  to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                  where all knowledge, all culture,
                  is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                  largely meaningless babble.

                  The crisis that develops from
                  this is that even if you accomplish
                  this grand synthesis in some isolated
                  ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                  contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                  It is necessary to reach out to the
                  entire society once it is achieved
                  in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                  attempts to enlighten the rest of
                  mankind instead of individually
                  passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                  society must be made whole and
                  sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                  This is the realization that comes
                  even to the Magister Ludi, the
                  Master of the Game.

                  For the game to be ultimately
                  meaningful we have to coach
                  everyone to eventually become
                  Masters."

                  **********************************

                  Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                  Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                  outflow principle) be accomplished without
                  the religious strings attached? Not by
                  Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                  to their membership donations or else
                  they can lose initiations!

                  Prometheus
                • Rebazar Tarzs
                  You re right. Maybe Rebazar died and Harold was afraid to talk about it.   After all, he still hasn t mentioned the death of the 972nd Mahanta!          
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    You're right. Maybe Rebazar died and Harold was afraid to talk about it.
                     
                    After all, he still hasn't mentioned the death of the 972nd Mahanta!
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     


                    --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 9:42 PM

                     
                    Hello All,
                    In the Catholic Church there
                    are all types within the "spiritual
                    hierarchy" that can intercede
                    with God on the behalf of man.
                    Twitchell and Klemp merely
                    copied this as well and added
                    EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                    http://www.catholic .org/encyclopedi a/view.php? id=6146

                    The thing about doing research
                    on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                    version (with "c" added) along
                    with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                    more than 50 years ago!

                    This No Contact is strange
                    (not really) since Rebazar has
                    been around for 500 years, in
                    the same physical body, and
                    even sailed with Columbus
                    (according to Klemp)!

                    Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                    mentioning REBAZAR (the
                    Torchbearer) by name nor
                    is there anything written by
                    RT (in his own hand) for 500
                    years!

                    And, since Rebazar does
                    (supposedly) have a 500
                    year old physical body why
                    didn't he show up before and
                    after Twit died versus Gail
                    having to use a dream from
                    Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?

                    Why hasn't RT shown up at
                    an EK Seminar in all of these
                    years and given a talk? Is he
                    too good for that?

                    If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                    isn't too good or too "high"
                    to give a Seminar talk why
                    can't Rebazar appear and
                    give one too? He is a physical
                    being, still! Thus, RT should
                    be expected to show up every
                    now and then. But... he hasn't
                    ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                    dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                    it because he pissed HK off by
                    never showing up at an EK Seminar!

                    Prometheus

                    realbizarretarzs wrote:

                    Hi there!

                    The intercession part is the
                    part I really don't understand!

                    Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                    and the previously published short
                    articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                    Free," I was at odds with my
                    Presbyterian minister while taking
                    confirmation classes (not my idea,
                    of course, but my parents' idea of
                    a good time) over this very point.

                    I got the highest grades on everything,
                    even higher than the minister's son,
                    but the minister was always trying
                    to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                    the margins of my essays, that
                    intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                    necessary in order to have any kind
                    of relationship with Spirit.

                    And I agree with you about everything
                    else you just said. Was Paul paying
                    Rebazar $160.00 a year?

                    How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

                    And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

                    It's funny that you mention connecting
                    the dots.

                    That is when I began to discover the
                    books we weren't supposed to know
                    about. In the nineties I was trying to
                    connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                    of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                    least 5,000 years B.C.

                    And by doing so, I was also researching
                    "EK" and "HU" throughout history.

                    Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

                    I think it is just a big psychological
                    circus that takes place, say, for an
                    example, at a major seminar. People
                    get all psychologically open to auto-
                    suggestion.

                    If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                    If not, it is because the chela has not
                    been doing his or her "homework."

                    Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

                    Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

                    Harold can dish it out both ways.
                    And eat the cake himself.

                    Again, just like with most religions,
                    people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                    fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                    but fear of the unknown - something
                    they are supposed to be conquering
                    BECAUSE of Eckankar!

                    They can't because they are clinging
                    to the known world. Their little world
                    of "Super Normal" people.

                    With alot of these people, most or
                    all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.

                    What would they think? And the
                    idea of letting others "below" or
                    "beneath" them passing them up
                    in "initiations" !

                    What could be worse than that?

                    Or being "demoted" as a person
                    in any way?

                    They give all their power to the
                    heirarchy.

                    They are powerless to help themselves.
                    Not really, of course, but it is psychological.

                    Whatever happened to power,
                    wisdom and freedom?

                    The answer, my friend, is blowing
                    in the wind.

                    But you knew that!



                    prometheus wrote:

                    Hello All,
                    Thanks for sharing your
                    comments and the info
                    about these books!

                    As far as "transcending
                    religion" it seems that this
                    is what we thought we were
                    doing when we joined the
                    "path" of Eckankar way back
                    when.

                    Early on, Eckankar seemed
                    to have a certain mystique
                    about it. The reality, now,
                    is that it was never what we
                    imagined or desired. This
                    PT/HK consciousness is based
                    upon delusions, lies, and
                    manipulations frozen
                    in time as meaningless and
                    imagined experiences and
                    dreams via Klemp's over-
                    simplified and mind numbing
                    hypnotic message. This is
                    the "real" reason people fall
                    asleep during his talks! And,
                    there's No spiritual meat
                    (protein)!

                    The Eckankar message is
                    merely a redundancy and
                    regurgitation of empty 2nd
                    and 4th Plane thoughts and
                    words.

                    PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                    Westernized rewrite of the
                    Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                    once borrowed and plagiarized
                    (compiled) from Sant Mat
                    religions (etc.), and from
                    more knowledgeable/
                    enlightened people by
                    the trickster Twitchell.

                    HK's EK "path" has not only
                    become Christianized, but
                    has also been exposed as
                    just another "Feel Good"
                    religious sect that preaches
                    one thing and does another!
                    It's a Codependent scam!

                    Thus, the Klemps' egos
                    are feeling pretty good
                    right now and the "trickle-
                    down effect" is still sustaining
                    their EK followers/sheep/
                    chickens in the same ways
                    as other religions work their
                    magic on the numb, dumb,
                    fearful, and superstitious
                    masses.

                    Still, for Eckists who think
                    they can see beyond the
                    veil/void it's amazing to
                    see that they are quite
                    incapable of true change
                    and of discovering the
                    real path of TRUTH, and
                    of experiencing the art
                    of the obvious.

                    Truth has escaped these
                    Eckists and they will forever
                    remain a pawn of the KAL
                    and under Klemp's trance
                    of providing "sales service."

                    This, of course, benefits HK's
                    selfish motives, and, on the
                    other hand, it helps to give
                    Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                    This is why Klemp feels he
                    is doing no harm since it
                    provides of service for lost
                    Souls until they become advanced
                    enough to realize they don't
                    need a middleman.

                    However, the "catch" lies
                    within the promises made
                    and the innate desire of
                    soul to "Know" God and to
                    return Home again. Eckankar
                    manipulates this desire with
                    "initiations" that are turned
                    into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                    However, Not Desiring Initiations
                    (via a pure heart) is another
                    trap/test that has merely been
                    disguised while the "desire"
                    remains hidden from outer
                    sight. Thus, it seems to be
                    okay to "imagine" (and still
                    desire) higher initiations on
                    the "INNER" via the ruse of
                    needing a Mahanta for more
                    and more of these fake initiations
                    in order to expand consciousness
                    for more and more spiritual
                    progress.

                    Eckists are chasing their tails
                    via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                    rendition of circular logic and
                    thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                    and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                    in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                    is training Eckists to become
                    more and more Codependent
                    upon the Mahanta and their
                    desires and attachments?

                    Look at the ECK stories... they
                    all require the intercession and
                    help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                    via self-hypnosis and programming,
                    (attachment) are being taught
                    to call upon the Mahanta for
                    anything and everything.. . but
                    where is Soul and where is the
                    ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                    one mouthes certain "charged"
                    4th Plane words or thinks he/
                    she is "detached" doesn't make
                    it so!

                    What's interesting is that these
                    two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                    don't require money in order
                    to maintain (outer and Inner
                    initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                    but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                    needed! This is what structured
                    (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                    order to control groups of people.
                    I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                    don't want to see the correlation
                    and connect-the- dots.

                    Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                    the-dots? It probably has to do
                    with their feelings of being "Superior
                    Normal" and the delusion that
                    gives them "all the answers" in
                    order to alleviate their doubts
                    and fears. The ego makes a better
                    servant than it does a master,
                    but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                    hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                    ego from Soul.

                    Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                    (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                    writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                    H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                    What has Klemp been teaching
                    his followers since he's been
                    in charge?

                    Prometheus

                    realbizarretarzs wrote:

                    So true. I really enjoyed your
                    experiment.

                    I used to do that sort of stuff
                    until it became more sad than
                    amusing.

                    Also, a while back, I forgot
                    to mention the books of
                    Alan Watts, starting with
                    "The Way of Zen" and
                    "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                    The second title, of course,
                    is a paradox, but one that
                    makes sense without having
                    to go too far into the book
                    to see what he is talking about.

                    One doesn't have to be necessarily
                    into Zen or even Buddhism to
                    understand where he was coming
                    from.

                    His books are very easy to read
                    and are somewhat humorous.

                    Interestingly, he obtained
                    a master's degree in theology
                    and "divinity" but went on to
                    write twenty to thirty books
                    on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                    philosophies, and the psychology
                    of religion, and the importance
                    of mysticism insofar as the
                    individual transcending man-
                    made religion.

                    whitemoby wrote:

                    Truth can never by systemized,
                    no matter how eloquently.

                    Moby

                    Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                    In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                    after following instructions
                    to the letter, but not losing
                    his intuition, begins to question
                    everything, and comes to
                    see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                    favorite or not-so-favorite
                    community Utopia) as a kind
                    of ivory tower, oblivious to
                    real life, and thus, reality.

                    He begins to realize that,
                    after many years, and many
                    relationships, Castilia is a
                    self-protected society that
                    does little, if anything, for
                    the world outside its borders,
                    and is burderned by a hierarchy
                    of personalities and games
                    people play.

                    I won't reveal any more than
                    this, in case someone is
                    currently reading "Magister
                    Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                    but I will say this - throughout
                    the whole story, Bruce Willis
                    is dead.

                    What?!?

                    No, actually, the truth seeker,
                    Knecht (which, in German,
                    means servant and/or knight)
                    (or so the Germans would have
                    us believe) is, to the dumb-
                    foundment of his "superiors",
                    really looking for truth.

                    No substitutes.

                    I hope I didn't give away too
                    much, as the book is almost
                    600 pages long, but, actually,
                    I haven't, because there is
                    so much truth in the story
                    that everytime I re-read it,
                    I realize something new.

                    I know we used to say that
                    about certain ECK books
                    (before Harold) but the
                    stuff that Paul took from
                    others is timeless as well.

                    What was kind of amusing
                    is that when I read the book
                    the first time, Darwin was
                    the "Master."

                    One of the first main characters
                    in the story is the "Music Master."

                    prometheus wrote:

                    Here's a review from Amazon.com
                    of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                    "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                    It is no less than the highest
                    reason that an entire future
                    civilization exists. It is the
                    grand and ongoing synthesis
                    of all knowledge into a unified,
                    integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                    It is an attempt to forge a
                    holographic intellectual world
                    where all is interconnected and
                    reflected in every part. This is
                    a mission to weave the golden
                    thread of significance and meaning
                    through every part of a culture-
                    science and the arts and the
                    spiritual are all unified into a
                    system of concentric, interpenetrating
                    rings.

                    All this is primarily accomplished
                    by using the language of music
                    and mathematics as common
                    universal symbolism (the "glass
                    beads" are part of a symbolic
                    physical aid that was once used
                    for this purpose.)

                    It is no wonder that the book
                    places the first origins of the
                    game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                    and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                    that the League of Journeyers
                    to the East also figure prominently
                    in its development. To some
                    extent the Game has been the
                    goal of all sensitive and introspective
                    individuals and groups down
                    through the ages.

                    All of this stands in stark contrast
                    to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                    where all knowledge, all culture,
                    is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                    largely meaningless babble.

                    The crisis that develops from
                    this is that even if you accomplish
                    this grand synthesis in some isolated
                    ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                    contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                    It is necessary to reach out to the
                    entire society once it is achieved
                    in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                    attempts to enlighten the rest of
                    mankind instead of individually
                    passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                    society must be made whole and
                    sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                    This is the realization that comes
                    even to the Magister Ludi, the
                    Master of the Game.

                    For the game to be ultimately
                    meaningful we have to coach
                    everyone to eventually become
                    Masters."

                    ************ ********* ********* ****

                    Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                    Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                    outflow principle) be accomplished without
                    the religious strings attached? Not by
                    Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                    to their membership donations or else
                    they can lose initiations!

                    Prometheus


                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, Do you think Klemp will mention that Darwin died at this up coming Seminar? If Rebazar died, as well, maybe that will be the excuse to make Joan an
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello All,
                      Do you think Klemp will
                      mention that Darwin died
                      at this up coming Seminar?

                      If Rebazar died, as well,
                      maybe that will be the
                      excuse to make Joan an
                      EK Master... to take
                      Rebazar's place! Or,
                      would she finally be
                      taking Darwin's place?

                      BTW - I found a new way
                      that Klemp and Company
                      can make more money.

                      http://www.saintsforsinners.com/medalsgallery.html

                      This site is "Saints for Sinners"
                      where people can buy a medallion
                      with their favorite Saint painted
                      upon it. All Eckankar has to do
                      is substitute the EK Masters for
                      the Saints... like Twitchell did!
                      Anyway, I'm sure that every Eckist
                      would buy a Rebazar Medallion
                      for whatever the cost!

                      Prometheus


                      realbizarretarzs wrote:

                      You're right. Maybe Rebazar
                      died and Harold was afraid
                      to talk about it.

                      After all, he still hasn't mentioned
                      the death of the 972nd Mahanta!


                      prometheus wrote:

                      > Hello All,
                      > In the Catholic Church there
                      > are all types within the "spiritual
                      > hierarchy" that can intercede
                      > with God on the behalf of man.
                      > Twitchell and Klemp merely
                      > copied this as well and added
                      > EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                      http://www.catholic .org/encyclopedi a/view.php? id=6146

                      > The thing about doing research
                      > on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                      > version (with "c" added) along
                      > with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                      > more than 50 years ago!
                      >
                      > This No Contact is strange
                      > (not really) since Rebazar has
                      > been around for 500 years, in
                      > the same physical body, and
                      > even sailed with Columbus
                      > (according to Klemp)!
                      >
                      > Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                      > mentioning REBAZAR (the
                      > Torchbearer) by name nor
                      > is there anything written by
                      > RT (in his own hand) for 500
                      > years!
                      >
                      > And, since Rebazar does
                      > (supposedly) have a 500
                      > year old physical body why
                      > didn't he show up before and
                      > after Twit died versus Gail
                      > having to use a dream from
                      > Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?
                      >
                      > Why hasn't RT shown up at
                      > an EK Seminar in all of these
                      > years and given a talk? Is he
                      > too good for that?
                      >
                      > If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                      > isn't too good or too "high"
                      > to give a Seminar talk why
                      > can't Rebazar appear and
                      > give one too? He is a physical
                      > being, still! Thus, RT should
                      > be expected to show up every
                      > now and then. But... he hasn't
                      > ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                      > dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                      > it because he pissed HK off by
                      > never showing up at an EK Seminar!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi there!
                      >
                      > The intercession part is the
                      > part I really don't understand!
                      >
                      > Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                      > and the previously published short
                      > articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                      > Free," I was at odds with my
                      > Presbyterian minister while taking
                      > confirmation classes (not my idea,
                      > of course, but my parents' idea of
                      > a good time) over this very point.
                      >
                      > I got the highest grades on everything,
                      > even higher than the minister's son,
                      > but the minister was always trying
                      > to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                      > the margins of my essays, that
                      > intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                      > necessary in order to have any kind
                      > of relationship with Spirit.
                      >
                      > And I agree with you about everything
                      > else you just said. Was Paul paying
                      > Rebazar $160.00 a year?
                      >
                      > How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                      >
                      > And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                      >
                      > It's funny that you mention connecting
                      > the dots.
                      >
                      > That is when I began to discover the
                      > books we weren't supposed to know
                      > about. In the nineties I was trying to
                      > connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                      > of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                      > least 5,000 years B.C.
                      >
                      > And by doing so, I was also researching
                      > "EK" and "HU" throughout history.
                      >
                      > Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                      >
                      > I think it is just a big psychological
                      > circus that takes place, say, for an
                      > example, at a major seminar. People
                      > get all psychologically open to auto-
                      > suggestion.
                      >
                      > If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                      > If not, it is because the chela has not
                      > been doing his or her "homework."
                      >
                      > Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                      >
                      > Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                      >
                      > Harold can dish it out both ways.
                      > And eat the cake himself.
                      >
                      > Again, just like with most religions,
                      > people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                      > fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                      > but fear of the unknown - something
                      > they are supposed to be conquering
                      > BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                      >
                      > They can't because they are clinging
                      > to the known world. Their little world
                      > of "Super Normal" people.
                      >
                      > With alot of these people, most or
                      > all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.
                      >
                      > What would they think? And the
                      > idea of letting others "below" or
                      > "beneath" them passing them up
                      > in "initiations" !
                      >
                      > What could be worse than that?
                      >
                      > Or being "demoted" as a person
                      > in any way?
                      >
                      > They give all their power to the
                      > heirarchy.
                      >
                      > They are powerless to help themselves.
                      > Not really, of course, but it is psychological.
                      >
                      > Whatever happened to power,
                      > wisdom and freedom?
                      >
                      > The answer, my friend, is blowing
                      > in the wind.
                      >
                      > But you knew that!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      > Thanks for sharing your
                      > comments and the info
                      > about these books!
                      >
                      > As far as "transcending
                      > religion" it seems that this
                      > is what we thought we were
                      > doing when we joined the
                      > "path" of Eckankar way back
                      > when.
                      >
                      > Early on, Eckankar seemed
                      > to have a certain mystique
                      > about it. The reality, now,
                      > is that it was never what we
                      > imagined or desired. This
                      > PT/HK consciousness is based
                      > upon delusions, lies, and
                      > manipulations frozen
                      > in time as meaningless and
                      > imagined experiences and
                      > dreams via Klemp's over-
                      > simplified and mind numbing
                      > hypnotic message. This is
                      > the "real" reason people fall
                      > asleep during his talks! And,
                      > there's No spiritual meat
                      > (protein)!
                      >
                      > The Eckankar message is
                      > merely a redundancy and
                      > regurgitation of empty 2nd
                      > and 4th Plane thoughts and
                      > words.
                      >
                      > PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                      > Westernized rewrite of the
                      > Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                      > once borrowed and plagiarized
                      > (compiled) from Sant Mat
                      > religions (etc.), and from
                      > more knowledgeable/
                      > enlightened people by
                      > the trickster Twitchell.
                      >
                      > HK's EK "path" has not only
                      > become Christianized, but
                      > has also been exposed as
                      > just another "Feel Good"
                      > religious sect that preaches
                      > one thing and does another!
                      > It's a Codependent scam!
                      >
                      > Thus, the Klemps' egos
                      > are feeling pretty good
                      > right now and the "trickle-
                      > down effect" is still sustaining
                      > their EK followers/sheep/
                      > chickens in the same ways
                      > as other religions work their
                      > magic on the numb, dumb,
                      > fearful, and superstitious
                      > masses.
                      >
                      > Still, for Eckists who think
                      > they can see beyond the
                      > veil/void it's amazing to
                      > see that they are quite
                      > incapable of true change
                      > and of discovering the
                      > real path of TRUTH, and
                      > of experiencing the art
                      > of the obvious.
                      >
                      > Truth has escaped these
                      > Eckists and they will forever
                      > remain a pawn of the KAL
                      > and under Klemp's trance
                      > of providing "sales service."
                      >
                      > This, of course, benefits HK's
                      > selfish motives, and, on the
                      > other hand, it helps to give
                      > Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                      > This is why Klemp feels he
                      > is doing no harm since it
                      > provides of service for lost
                      > Souls until they become advanced
                      > enough to realize they don't
                      > need a middleman.
                      >
                      > However, the "catch" lies
                      > within the promises made
                      > and the innate desire of
                      > soul to "Know" God and to
                      > return Home again. Eckankar
                      > manipulates this desire with
                      > "initiations" that are turned
                      > into a KAL "Trap/Test."
                      >
                      > However, Not Desiring Initiations
                      > (via a pure heart) is another
                      > trap/test that has merely been
                      > disguised while the "desire"
                      > remains hidden from outer
                      > sight. Thus, it seems to be
                      > okay to "imagine" (and still
                      > desire) higher initiations on
                      > the "INNER" via the ruse of
                      > needing a Mahanta for more
                      > and more of these fake initiations
                      > in order to expand consciousness
                      > for more and more spiritual
                      > progress.
                      >
                      > Eckists are chasing their tails
                      > via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                      > rendition of circular logic and
                      > thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                      > and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                      > in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                      > is training Eckists to become
                      > more and more Codependent
                      > upon the Mahanta and their
                      > desires and attachments?
                      >
                      > Look at the ECK stories... they
                      > all require the intercession and
                      > help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                      > via self-hypnosis and programming,
                      > (attachment) are being taught
                      > to call upon the Mahanta for
                      > anything and everything.. . but
                      > where is Soul and where is the
                      > ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                      > one mouthes certain "charged"
                      > 4th Plane words or thinks he/
                      > she is "detached" doesn't make
                      > it so!
                      >
                      > What's interesting is that these
                      > two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                      > don't require money in order
                      > to maintain (outer and Inner
                      > initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                      > but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                      > needed! This is what structured
                      > (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                      > order to control groups of people.
                      > I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                      > don't want to see the correlation
                      > and connect-the- dots.
                      >
                      > Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                      > the-dots? It probably has to do
                      > with their feelings of being "Superior
                      > Normal" and the delusion that
                      > gives them "all the answers" in
                      > order to alleviate their doubts
                      > and fears. The ego makes a better
                      > servant than it does a master,
                      > but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                      > hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                      > ego from Soul.
                      >
                      > Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                      > (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                      > writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                      > H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                      > What has Klemp been teaching
                      > his followers since he's been
                      > in charge?
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                      >
                      > So true. I really enjoyed your
                      > experiment.
                      >
                      > I used to do that sort of stuff
                      > until it became more sad than
                      > amusing.
                      >
                      > Also, a while back, I forgot
                      > to mention the books of
                      > Alan Watts, starting with
                      > "The Way of Zen" and
                      > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                      >
                      > The second title, of course,
                      > is a paradox, but one that
                      > makes sense without having
                      > to go too far into the book
                      > to see what he is talking about.
                      >
                      > One doesn't have to be necessarily
                      > into Zen or even Buddhism to
                      > understand where he was coming
                      > from.
                      >
                      > His books are very easy to read
                      > and are somewhat humorous.
                      >
                      > Interestingly, he obtained
                      > a master's degree in theology
                      > and "divinity" but went on to
                      > write twenty to thirty books
                      > on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                      > philosophies, and the psychology
                      > of religion, and the importance
                      > of mysticism insofar as the
                      > individual transcending man-
                      > made religion.
                      >
                      > whitemoby wrote:
                      >
                      > Truth can never by systemized,
                      > no matter how eloquently.
                      >
                      > Moby
                      >
                      > Rebazar Tarzs wrote:
                      >
                      > In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                      > after following instructions
                      > to the letter, but not losing
                      > his intuition, begins to question
                      > everything, and comes to
                      > see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                      > favorite or not-so-favorite
                      > community Utopia) as a kind
                      > of ivory tower, oblivious to
                      > real life, and thus, reality.
                      >
                      > He begins to realize that,
                      > after many years, and many
                      > relationships, Castilia is a
                      > self-protected society that
                      > does little, if anything, for
                      > the world outside its borders,
                      > and is burderned by a hierarchy
                      > of personalities and games
                      > people play.
                      >
                      > I won't reveal any more than
                      > this, in case someone is
                      > currently reading "Magister
                      > Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                      > but I will say this - throughout
                      > the whole story, Bruce Willis
                      > is dead.
                      >
                      > What?!?
                      >
                      > No, actually, the truth seeker,
                      > Knecht (which, in German,
                      > means servant and/or knight)
                      > (or so the Germans would have
                      > us believe) is, to the dumb-
                      > foundment of his "superiors",
                      > really looking for truth.
                      >
                      > No substitutes.
                      >
                      > I hope I didn't give away too
                      > much, as the book is almost
                      > 600 pages long, but, actually,
                      > I haven't, because there is
                      > so much truth in the story
                      > that everytime I re-read it,
                      > I realize something new.
                      >
                      > I know we used to say that
                      > about certain ECK books
                      > (before Harold) but the
                      > stuff that Paul took from
                      > others is timeless as well.
                      >
                      > What was kind of amusing
                      > is that when I read the book
                      > the first time, Darwin was
                      > the "Master."
                      >
                      > One of the first main characters
                      > in the story is the "Music Master."
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                      > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                      >
                      > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                      > It is no less than the highest
                      > reason that an entire future
                      > civilization exists. It is the
                      > grand and ongoing synthesis
                      > of all knowledge into a unified,
                      > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                      >
                      > It is an attempt to forge a
                      > holographic intellectual world
                      > where all is interconnected and
                      > reflected in every part. This is
                      > a mission to weave the golden
                      > thread of significance and meaning
                      > through every part of a culture-
                      > science and the arts and the
                      > spiritual are all unified into a
                      > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                      > rings.
                      >
                      > All this is primarily accomplished
                      > by using the language of music
                      > and mathematics as common
                      > universal symbolism (the "glass
                      > beads" are part of a symbolic
                      > physical aid that was once used
                      > for this purpose.)
                      >
                      > It is no wonder that the book
                      > places the first origins of the
                      > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                      > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                      > that the League of Journeyers
                      > to the East also figure prominently
                      > in its development. To some
                      > extent the Game has been the
                      > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                      > individuals and groups down
                      > through the ages.
                      >
                      > All of this stands in stark contrast
                      > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                      > where all knowledge, all culture,
                      > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                      > largely meaningless babble.
                      >
                      > The crisis that develops from
                      > this is that even if you accomplish
                      > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                      > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                      > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                      >
                      > It is necessary to reach out to the
                      > entire society once it is achieved
                      > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                      > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                      > mankind instead of individually
                      > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                      > society must be made whole and
                      > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                      >
                      > This is the realization that comes
                      > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                      > Master of the Game.
                      >
                      > For the game to be ultimately
                      > meaningful we have to coach
                      > everyone to eventually become
                      > Masters."
                      >
                      **********************************
                      >
                      > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                      > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                      > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                      > the religious strings attached? Not by
                      > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                      > to their membership donations or else
                      > they can lose initiations!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                    • Rebazar Tarzs
                      I am surprised that Harold hasn t already announced the ascension of Rebazar into whatever plane and/or wisdom temple already,  because that would get the 500
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 13, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I am surprised that Harold hasn't already announced the
                        ascension of Rebazar into whatever plane and/or wisdom temple
                        already,  because that would get the 500 Plus Year OId Man
                        thing out of his hair. 
                         
                        That would make Reb just another past master, one that no one can
                        prove did not exist.
                         
                        The EK Master medallion is a great idea.
                         
                        Are they waiting for the price of fool's gold to come down?   

                        --- On Tue, 10/13/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 6:14 AM

                         
                        Hello All,
                        Do you think Klemp will
                        mention that Darwin died
                        at this up coming Seminar?

                        If Rebazar died, as well,
                        maybe that will be the
                        excuse to make Joan an
                        EK Master... to take
                        Rebazar's place! Or,
                        would she finally be
                        taking Darwin's place?

                        BTW - I found a new way
                        that Klemp and Company
                        can make more money.

                        http://www.saintsfo rsinners. com/medalsgaller y.html

                        This site is "Saints for Sinners"
                        where people can buy a medallion
                        with their favorite Saint painted
                        upon it. All Eckankar has to do
                        is substitute the EK Masters for
                        the Saints... like Twitchell did!
                        Anyway, I'm sure that every Eckist
                        would buy a Rebazar Medallion
                        for whatever the cost!

                        Prometheus

                        realbizarretarzs wrote:

                        You're right. Maybe Rebazar
                        died and Harold was afraid
                        to talk about it.

                        After all, he still hasn't mentioned
                        the death of the 972nd Mahanta!


                        prometheus wrote:

                        > Hello All,
                        > In the Catholic Church there
                        > are all types within the "spiritual
                        > hierarchy" that can intercede
                        > with God on the behalf of man.
                        > Twitchell and Klemp merely
                        > copied this as well and added
                        > EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                        http://www.catholic .org/encyclopedi a/view.php? id=6146

                        > The thing about doing research
                        > on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                        > version (with "c" added) along
                        > with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                        > more than 50 years ago!
                        >
                        > This No Contact is strange
                        > (not really) since Rebazar has
                        > been around for 500 years, in
                        > the same physical body, and
                        > even sailed with Columbus
                        > (according to Klemp)!
                        >
                        > Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                        > mentioning REBAZAR (the
                        > Torchbearer) by name nor
                        > is there anything written by
                        > RT (in his own hand) for 500
                        > years!
                        >
                        > And, since Rebazar does
                        > (supposedly) have a 500
                        > year old physical body why
                        > didn't he show up before and
                        > after Twit died versus Gail
                        > having to use a dream from
                        > Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?
                        >
                        > Why hasn't RT shown up at
                        > an EK Seminar in all of these
                        > years and given a talk? Is he
                        > too good for that?
                        >
                        > If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                        > isn't too good or too "high"
                        > to give a Seminar talk why
                        > can't Rebazar appear and
                        > give one too? He is a physical
                        > being, still! Thus, RT should
                        > be expected to show up every
                        > now and then. But... he hasn't
                        > ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                        > dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                        > it because he pissed HK off by
                        > never showing up at an EK Seminar!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi there!
                        >
                        > The intercession part is the
                        > part I really don't understand!
                        >
                        > Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                        > and the previously published short
                        > articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                        > Free," I was at odds with my
                        > Presbyterian minister while taking
                        > confirmation classes (not my idea,
                        > of course, but my parents' idea of
                        > a good time) over this very point.
                        >
                        > I got the highest grades on everything,
                        > even higher than the minister's son,
                        > but the minister was always trying
                        > to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                        > the margins of my essays, that
                        > intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                        > necessary in order to have any kind
                        > of relationship with Spirit.
                        >
                        > And I agree with you about everything
                        > else you just said. Was Paul paying
                        > Rebazar $160.00 a year?
                        >
                        > How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                        >
                        > And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                        >
                        > It's funny that you mention connecting
                        > the dots.
                        >
                        > That is when I began to discover the
                        > books we weren't supposed to know
                        > about. In the nineties I was trying to
                        > connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                        > of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                        > least 5,000 years B.C.
                        >
                        > And by doing so, I was also researching
                        > "EK" and "HU" throughout history.
                        >
                        > Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                        >
                        > I think it is just a big psychological
                        > circus that takes place, say, for an
                        > example, at a major seminar. People
                        > get all psychologically open to auto-
                        > suggestion.
                        >
                        > If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                        > If not, it is because the chela has not
                        > been doing his or her "homework."
                        >
                        > Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                        >
                        > Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                        >
                        > Harold can dish it out both ways.
                        > And eat the cake himself.
                        >
                        > Again, just like with most religions,
                        > people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                        > fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                        > but fear of the unknown - something
                        > they are supposed to be conquering
                        > BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                        >
                        > They can't because they are clinging
                        > to the known world. Their little world
                        > of "Super Normal" people.
                        >
                        > With alot of these people, most or
                        > all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.
                        >
                        > What would they think? And the
                        > idea of letting others "below" or
                        > "beneath" them passing them up
                        > in "initiations" !
                        >
                        > What could be worse than that?
                        >
                        > Or being "demoted" as a person
                        > in any way?
                        >
                        > They give all their power to the
                        > heirarchy.
                        >
                        > They are powerless to help themselves.
                        > Not really, of course, but it is psychological.
                        >
                        > Whatever happened to power,
                        > wisdom and freedom?
                        >
                        > The answer, my friend, is blowing
                        > in the wind.
                        >
                        > But you knew that!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        > Thanks for sharing your
                        > comments and the info
                        > about these books!
                        >
                        > As far as "transcending
                        > religion" it seems that this
                        > is what we thought we were
                        > doing when we joined the
                        > "path" of Eckankar way back
                        > when.
                        >
                        > Early on, Eckankar seemed
                        > to have a certain mystique
                        > about it. The reality, now,
                        > is that it was never what we
                        > imagined or desired. This
                        > PT/HK consciousness is based
                        > upon delusions, lies, and
                        > manipulations frozen
                        > in time as meaningless and
                        > imagined experiences and
                        > dreams via Klemp's over-
                        > simplified and mind numbing
                        > hypnotic message. This is
                        > the "real" reason people fall
                        > asleep during his talks! And,
                        > there's No spiritual meat
                        > (protein)!
                        >
                        > The Eckankar message is
                        > merely a redundancy and
                        > regurgitation of empty 2nd
                        > and 4th Plane thoughts and
                        > words.
                        >
                        > PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                        > Westernized rewrite of the
                        > Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                        > once borrowed and plagiarized
                        > (compiled) from Sant Mat
                        > religions (etc.), and from
                        > more knowledgeable/
                        > enlightened people by
                        > the trickster Twitchell.
                        >
                        > HK's EK "path" has not only
                        > become Christianized, but
                        > has also been exposed as
                        > just another "Feel Good"
                        > religious sect that preaches
                        > one thing and does another!
                        > It's a Codependent scam!
                        >
                        > Thus, the Klemps' egos
                        > are feeling pretty good
                        > right now and the "trickle-
                        > down effect" is still sustaining
                        > their EK followers/sheep/
                        > chickens in the same ways
                        > as other religions work their
                        > magic on the numb, dumb,
                        > fearful, and superstitious
                        > masses.
                        >
                        > Still, for Eckists who think
                        > they can see beyond the
                        > veil/void it's amazing to
                        > see that they are quite
                        > incapable of true change
                        > and of discovering the
                        > real path of TRUTH, and
                        > of experiencing the art
                        > of the obvious.
                        >
                        > Truth has escaped these
                        > Eckists and they will forever
                        > remain a pawn of the KAL
                        > and under Klemp's trance
                        > of providing "sales service."
                        >
                        > This, of course, benefits HK's
                        > selfish motives, and, on the
                        > other hand, it helps to give
                        > Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                        > This is why Klemp feels he
                        > is doing no harm since it
                        > provides of service for lost
                        > Souls until they become advanced
                        > enough to realize they don't
                        > need a middleman.
                        >
                        > However, the "catch" lies
                        > within the promises made
                        > and the innate desire of
                        > soul to "Know" God and to
                        > return Home again. Eckankar
                        > manipulates this desire with
                        > "initiations" that are turned
                        > into a KAL "Trap/Test."
                        >
                        > However, Not Desiring Initiations
                        > (via a pure heart) is another
                        > trap/test that has merely been
                        > disguised while the "desire"
                        > remains hidden from outer
                        > sight. Thus, it seems to be
                        > okay to "imagine" (and still
                        > desire) higher initiations on
                        > the "INNER" via the ruse of
                        > needing a Mahanta for more
                        > and more of these fake initiations
                        > in order to expand consciousness
                        > for more and more spiritual
                        > progress.
                        >
                        > Eckists are chasing their tails
                        > via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                        > rendition of circular logic and
                        > thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                        > and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                        > in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                        > is training Eckists to become
                        > more and more Codependent
                        > upon the Mahanta and their
                        > desires and attachments?
                        >
                        > Look at the ECK stories... they
                        > all require the intercession and
                        > help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                        > via self-hypnosis and programming,
                        > (attachment) are being taught
                        > to call upon the Mahanta for
                        > anything and everything.. . but
                        > where is Soul and where is the
                        > ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                        > one mouthes certain "charged"
                        > 4th Plane words or thinks he/
                        > she is "detached" doesn't make
                        > it so!
                        >
                        > What's interesting is that these
                        > two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                        > don't require money in order
                        > to maintain (outer and Inner
                        > initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                        > but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                        > needed! This is what structured
                        > (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                        > order to control groups of people.
                        > I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                        > don't want to see the correlation
                        > and connect-the- dots.
                        >
                        > Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                        > the-dots? It probably has to do
                        > with their feelings of being "Superior
                        > Normal" and the delusion that
                        > gives them "all the answers" in
                        > order to alleviate their doubts
                        > and fears. The ego makes a better
                        > servant than it does a master,
                        > but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                        > hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                        > ego from Soul.
                        >
                        > Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                        > (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                        > writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                        > H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                        > What has Klemp been teaching
                        > his followers since he's been
                        > in charge?
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                        >
                        > So true. I really enjoyed your
                        > experiment.
                        >
                        > I used to do that sort of stuff
                        > until it became more sad than
                        > amusing.
                        >
                        > Also, a while back, I forgot
                        > to mention the books of
                        > Alan Watts, starting with
                        > "The Way of Zen" and
                        > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                        >
                        > The second title, of course,
                        > is a paradox, but one that
                        > makes sense without having
                        > to go too far into the book
                        > to see what he is talking about.
                        >
                        > One doesn't have to be necessarily
                        > into Zen or even Buddhism to
                        > understand where he was coming
                        > from.
                        >
                        > His books are very easy to read
                        > and are somewhat humorous.
                        >
                        > Interestingly, he obtained
                        > a master's degree in theology
                        > and "divinity" but went on to
                        > write twenty to thirty books
                        > on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                        > philosophies, and the psychology
                        > of religion, and the importance
                        > of mysticism insofar as the
                        > individual transcending man-
                        > made religion.
                        >
                        > whitemoby wrote:
                        >
                        > Truth can never by systemized,
                        > no matter how eloquently.
                        >
                        > Moby
                        >
                        > Rebazar Tarzs wrote:
                        >
                        > In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                        > after following instructions
                        > to the letter, but not losing
                        > his intuition, begins to question
                        > everything, and comes to
                        > see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                        > favorite or not-so-favorite
                        > community Utopia) as a kind
                        > of ivory tower, oblivious to
                        > real life, and thus, reality.
                        >
                        > He begins to realize that,
                        > after many years, and many
                        > relationships, Castilia is a
                        > self-protected society that
                        > does little, if anything, for
                        > the world outside its borders,
                        > and is burderned by a hierarchy
                        > of personalities and games
                        > people play.
                        >
                        > I won't reveal any more than
                        > this, in case someone is
                        > currently reading "Magister
                        > Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                        > but I will say this - throughout
                        > the whole story, Bruce Willis
                        > is dead.
                        >
                        > What?!?
                        >
                        > No, actually, the truth seeker,
                        > Knecht (which, in German,
                        > means servant and/or knight)
                        > (or so the Germans would have
                        > us believe) is, to the dumb-
                        > foundment of his "superiors",
                        > really looking for truth.
                        >
                        > No substitutes.
                        >
                        > I hope I didn't give away too
                        > much, as the book is almost
                        > 600 pages long, but, actually,
                        > I haven't, because there is
                        > so much truth in the story
                        > that everytime I re-read it,
                        > I realize something new.
                        >
                        > I know we used to say that
                        > about certain ECK books
                        > (before Harold) but the
                        > stuff that Paul took from
                        > others is timeless as well.
                        >
                        > What was kind of amusing
                        > is that when I read the book
                        > the first time, Darwin was
                        > the "Master."
                        >
                        > One of the first main characters
                        > in the story is the "Music Master."
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                        > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                        >
                        > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                        > It is no less than the highest
                        > reason that an entire future
                        > civilization exists. It is the
                        > grand and ongoing synthesis
                        > of all knowledge into a unified,
                        > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                        >
                        > It is an attempt to forge a
                        > holographic intellectual world
                        > where all is interconnected and
                        > reflected in every part. This is
                        > a mission to weave the golden
                        > thread of significance and meaning
                        > through every part of a culture-
                        > science and the arts and the
                        > spiritual are all unified into a
                        > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                        > rings.
                        >
                        > All this is primarily accomplished
                        > by using the language of music
                        > and mathematics as common
                        > universal symbolism (the "glass
                        > beads" are part of a symbolic
                        > physical aid that was once used
                        > for this purpose.)
                        >
                        > It is no wonder that the book
                        > places the first origins of the
                        > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                        > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                        > that the League of Journeyers
                        > to the East also figure prominently
                        > in its development. To some
                        > extent the Game has been the
                        > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                        > individuals and groups down
                        > through the ages.
                        >
                        > All of this stands in stark contrast
                        > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                        > where all knowledge, all culture,
                        > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                        > largely meaningless babble.
                        >
                        > The crisis that develops from
                        > this is that even if you accomplish
                        > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                        > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                        > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                        >
                        > It is necessary to reach out to the
                        > entire society once it is achieved
                        > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                        > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                        > mankind instead of individually
                        > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                        > society must be made whole and
                        > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                        >
                        > This is the realization that comes
                        > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                        > Master of the Game.
                        >
                        > For the game to be ultimately
                        > meaningful we have to coach
                        > everyone to eventually become
                        > Masters."
                        >
                        ************ ********* ********* ****
                        >
                        > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                        > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                        > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                        > the religious strings attached? Not by
                        > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                        > to their membership donations or else
                        > they can lose initiations!
                        >
                        > Prometheus


                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello All, What do you think about Harry promoting Joan to a 12th Initiate, and EK Master status, this October 22? However, since she wouldn t be a LEM I guess
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 13, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello All,
                          What do you think about
                          Harry promoting Joan to
                          a 12th Initiate, and EK Master
                          status, this October 22?
                          However, since she wouldn't
                          be a LEM I guess that
                          her 12th initiation doesn't
                          have to happen on PT's
                          birthday of October 22!

                          Maybe HK'll just announce
                          that she was promoted
                          to that of a 12th EK Master.
                          Will Harry put in a good
                          word for her so that she
                          can get into the Ancient
                          Order (of 'just men') of
                          the Vairagi?

                          I don't think that "Third"
                          Fill-In Postal Clerk would
                          give Joan as good of a
                          recommendation as Harry,
                          but the clerk doesn't sleep
                          with her either!

                          Thus, Kata Daki (K.D.)
                          who is actually Kay-Dee,
                          or Twitchell's sister and
                          Joan (Harold's wife) would
                          be the only two female
                          ECK Masters! That's special.

                          I'd be willing to bet that
                          had Paul lived longer and
                          if Gail had not been so easily
                          enamoured that she'd have
                          been made a 12th and an
                          EK Master.

                          Yes, Rebazar might, now,
                          be an "Ascended" Master
                          for all we know! Who do
                          you think will be the next
                          "Torchbearer" to "fill-in"
                          as the LEM?

                          BTW- Eckankar Does Have
                          "medallions" now. And they
                          are made of FOOLS GOLD
                          since the cost can never
                          be recovered. When one
                          quits the EK cult the jewelry
                          can be sold on Ebay or
                          melted down for less than
                          half the price originally paid!

                          Question: Why does EK Jewelry
                          have to be so expensive when
                          EKists, usually, don't have all
                          that much extra money laying
                          around?

                          Thus, Peter and the Board
                          could enlist this Mexican
                          company "Saints for Sinners"
                          to do painted EK Master
                          Medallions for Eckankar.
                          maybe it could be a MN.
                          Satsang Project. They would
                          just send this company
                          the images of the fake EK
                          Masters... have them do
                          a sample run and see how
                          their likeness turned out
                          on the Medallions.

                          http://www.saintsforsinners.com/medalsgallery.html

                          Anyway, these new painted
                          EK Master Medallions would
                          be much less expensive and,
                          thus, much more affordable
                          than the gold medallions.
                          And, there'd be a better/larger
                          selection with colours too!

                          Plus, there'd be a larger profit
                          margin for Eckankar, on these
                          new medallions, versus the
                          ones they carry now due to
                          the high cost of gold.

                          After all, Why do Eckists think
                          the Catholic Church permits
                          (has approved of) these less
                          expensive medallions versus
                          Gold Medallions? It's because
                          they don't want to impede the
                          funds coming into the Church
                          (from lower income areas) due
                          to expensive religious jewelry.
                          Although, I'm sure that they
                          get a percentage of the sales.

                          Actually, this same view can
                          be applied to Eckankar Seminars
                          and the depletion of Eckists' funds
                          that is created by travel and stay
                          at these EK Events. Religious
                          Pilgrimages to a "Temple" or to
                          see the Pope/Mahanta do not
                          have to done more than once in
                          a lifetime! It's a waste of Building
                          Fund/Missionary Fund and EK
                          Materials monies! If "training"
                          is required the "trainers" can
                          travel to the local areas versus
                          the hundreds of trainees traveling
                          to the trainer. Law of Economy
                          anyone?

                          And, doesn't the EK Law of Economy
                          apply to the "Gold" EK Medallions
                          and to the real purpose of the EK
                          Seminars as well! Can't there be
                          an INNER SEMINAR for H.I.s that
                          would take the place of the OUTER
                          SEMINAR! Aren't Higher Initiates able
                          to experience this via their highly
                          expanded consciousness (and tools)
                          with the assistance of their Mahanta?
                          It's something to contemplate upon!

                          And, the Lower initiates (chelas)
                          could have their own Online EK
                          Seminar (workshops etc. included)
                          and save on the costs of travel and
                          hotel stay! Thus, more Donation
                          Money is made available!

                          Prometheus

                          realbizarretarzs wrote:

                          I am surprised that Harold
                          hasn't already announced
                          the ascension of Rebazar
                          into whatever plane and/
                          or wisdom temple already,
                          because that would get the
                          500 Plus Year OId Man
                          thing out of his hair.

                          That would make Reb just
                          another past master, one
                          that no one can prove did
                          not exist.

                          The EK Master medallion
                          is a great idea.

                          Are they waiting for the
                          price of fool's gold to
                          come down?


                          Prometheus wrote:

                          Hello All,
                          Do you think Klemp will
                          mention that Darwin died
                          at this up coming Seminar?

                          If Rebazar died, as well,
                          maybe that will be the
                          excuse to make Joan an
                          EK Master... to take
                          Rebazar's place! Or,
                          would she finally be
                          taking Darwin's place?

                          BTW - I found a new way
                          that Klemp and Company
                          can make more money.

                          http://www.saintsforsinners.com/medalsgallery.html

                          This site is "Saints for Sinners"
                          where people can buy a medallion
                          with their favorite Saint painted
                          upon it. All Eckankar has to do
                          is substitute the EK Masters for
                          the Saints... like Twitchell did!
                          Anyway, I'm sure that every Eckist
                          would buy a Rebazar Medallion
                          for whatever the cost!

                          Prometheus

                          realbizarretarzs wrote:

                          You're right. Maybe Rebazar
                          died and Harold was afraid
                          to talk about it.

                          After all, he still hasn't mentioned
                          the death of the 972nd Mahanta!


                          prometheus wrote:

                          > Hello All,
                          > In the Catholic Church there
                          > are all types within the "spiritual
                          > hierarchy" that can intercede
                          > with God on the behalf of man.
                          > Twitchell and Klemp merely
                          > copied this as well and added
                          > EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                          http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6146

                          > The thing about doing research
                          > on ECKankar (versus ekankar)
                          > is that Twitchell's version (with
                          > "c" added) along with Rebazar
                          > Tarzs didn't exist more than 50
                          > years ago!
                          >
                          > This No Physical Contact is strange
                          > (not really) since Rebazar has
                          > been around for 500 years, in
                          > the same Physical Body, and
                          > even sailed with Columbus
                          > (according to Klemp)!
                          >
                          > Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                          > mentioning REBAZAR (the
                          > Torchbearer) by name nor
                          > is there anything written by
                          > RT (in his own hand) for 500
                          > years!
                          >
                          > And, since Rebazar does
                          > (supposedly) have a 500
                          > year old physical body why
                          > didn't he show up before and
                          > after Twit died versus Gail
                          > having to use a dream from
                          > Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?
                          >
                          > Why hasn't RT shown up at
                          > an EK Seminar in all of these
                          > years and given a talk? Is he
                          > too good for that?
                          >
                          > If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                          > isn't too good or too "high"
                          > to give a Seminar talk why
                          > can't Rebazar appear and
                          > give one too? He is a physical
                          > being, still! Thus, RT should
                          > be expected to show up every
                          > now and then. But... he hasn't
                          > ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                          > dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                          > it because he pissed HK off by
                          > never showing up at an EK Seminar!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi there!
                          >
                          > The intercession part is the
                          > part I really don't understand!
                          >
                          > Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                          > and the previously published short
                          > articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                          > Free," I was at odds with my
                          > Presbyterian minister while taking
                          > confirmation classes (not my idea,
                          > of course, but my parents' idea of
                          > a good time) over this very point.
                          >
                          > I got the highest grades on everything,
                          > even higher than the minister's son,
                          > but the minister was always trying
                          > to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                          > the margins of my essays, that
                          > intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                          > necessary in order to have any kind
                          > of relationship with Spirit.
                          >
                          > And I agree with you about everything
                          > else you just said. Was Paul paying
                          > Rebazar $160.00 a year?
                          >
                          > How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                          >
                          > And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                          >
                          > It's funny that you mention connecting
                          > the dots.
                          >
                          > That is when I began to discover the
                          > books we weren't supposed to know
                          > about. In the nineties I was trying to
                          > connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                          > of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                          > least 5,000 years B.C.
                          >
                          > And by doing so, I was also researching
                          > "EK" and "HU" throughout history.
                          >
                          > Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                          >
                          > I think it is just a big psychological
                          > circus that takes place, say, for an
                          > example, at a major seminar. People
                          > get all psychologically open to auto-
                          > suggestion.
                          >
                          > If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                          > If not, it is because the chela has not
                          > been doing his or her "homework."
                          >
                          > Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                          >
                          > Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                          >
                          > Harold can dish it out both ways.
                          > And eat the cake himself.
                          >
                          > Again, just like with most religions,
                          > people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                          > fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                          > but fear of the unknown - something
                          > they are supposed to be conquering
                          > BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                          >
                          > They can't because they are clinging
                          > to the known world. Their little world
                          > of "Super Normal" people.
                          >
                          > With alot of these people, most or
                          > all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.
                          >
                          > What would they think? And the
                          > idea of letting others "below" or
                          > "beneath" them passing them up
                          > in "initiations" !
                          >
                          > What could be worse than that?
                          >
                          > Or being "demoted" as a person
                          > in any way?
                          >
                          > They give all their power to the
                          > heirarchy.
                          >
                          > They are powerless to help themselves.
                          > Not really, of course, but it is psychological.
                          >
                          > Whatever happened to power,
                          > wisdom and freedom?
                          >
                          > The answer, my friend, is blowing
                          > in the wind.
                          >
                          > But you knew that!
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          > Thanks for sharing your
                          > comments and the info
                          > about these books!
                          >
                          > As far as "transcending
                          > religion" it seems that this
                          > is what we thought we were
                          > doing when we joined the
                          > "path" of Eckankar way back
                          > when.
                          >
                          > Early on, Eckankar seemed
                          > to have a certain mystique
                          > about it. The reality, now,
                          > is that it was never what we
                          > imagined or desired. This
                          > PT/HK consciousness is based
                          > upon delusions, lies, and
                          > manipulations frozen
                          > in time as meaningless and
                          > imagined experiences and
                          > dreams via Klemp's over-
                          > simplified and mind numbing
                          > hypnotic message. This is
                          > the "real" reason people fall
                          > asleep during his talks! And,
                          > there's No spiritual meat
                          > (protein)!
                          >
                          > The Eckankar message is
                          > merely a redundancy and
                          > regurgitation of empty 2nd
                          > and 4th Plane thoughts and
                          > words.
                          >
                          > PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                          > Westernized rewrite of the
                          > Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                          > once borrowed and plagiarized
                          > (compiled) from Sant Mat
                          > religions (etc.), and from
                          > more knowledgeable/
                          > enlightened people by
                          > the trickster Twitchell.
                          >
                          > HK's EK "path" has not only
                          > become Christianized, but
                          > has also been exposed as
                          > just another "Feel Good"
                          > religious sect that preaches
                          > one thing and does another!
                          > It's a Codependent scam!
                          >
                          > Thus, the Klemps' egos
                          > are feeling pretty good
                          > right now and the "trickle-
                          > down effect" is still sustaining
                          > their EK followers/sheep/
                          > chickens in the same ways
                          > as other religions work their
                          > magic on the numb, dumb,
                          > fearful, and superstitious
                          > masses.
                          >
                          > Still, for Eckists who think
                          > they can see beyond the
                          > veil/void it's amazing to
                          > see that they are quite
                          > incapable of true change
                          > and of discovering the
                          > real path of TRUTH, and
                          > of experiencing the art
                          > of the obvious.
                          >
                          > Truth has escaped these
                          > Eckists and they will forever
                          > remain a pawn of the KAL
                          > and under Klemp's trance
                          > of providing "sales service."
                          >
                          > This, of course, benefits HK's
                          > selfish motives, and, on the
                          > other hand, it helps to give
                          > Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                          > This is why Klemp feels he
                          > is doing no harm since it
                          > provides of service for lost
                          > Souls until they become advanced
                          > enough to realize they don't
                          > need a middleman.
                          >
                          > However, the "catch" lies
                          > within the promises made
                          > and the innate desire of
                          > soul to "Know" God and to
                          > return Home again. Eckankar
                          > manipulates this desire with
                          > "initiations" that are turned
                          > into a KAL "Trap/Test."
                          >
                          > However, Not Desiring Initiations
                          > (via a pure heart) is another
                          > trap/test that has merely been
                          > disguised while the "desire"
                          > remains hidden from outer
                          > sight. Thus, it seems to be
                          > okay to "imagine" (and still
                          > desire) higher initiations on
                          > the "INNER" via the ruse of
                          > needing a Mahanta for more
                          > and more of these fake initiations
                          > in order to expand consciousness
                          > for more and more spiritual
                          > progress.
                          >
                          > Eckists are chasing their tails
                          > via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                          > rendition of circular logic and
                          > thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                          > and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                          > in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                          > is training Eckists to become
                          > more and more Codependent
                          > upon the Mahanta and their
                          > desires and attachments?
                          >
                          > Look at the ECK stories... they
                          > all require the intercession and
                          > help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                          > via self-hypnosis and programming,
                          > (attachment) are being taught
                          > to call upon the Mahanta for
                          > anything and everything.. . but
                          > where is Soul and where is the
                          > ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                          > one mouthes certain "charged"
                          > 4th Plane words or thinks he/
                          > she is "detached" doesn't make
                          > it so!
                          >
                          > What's interesting is that these
                          > two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                          > don't require money in order
                          > to maintain (outer and Inner
                          > initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                          > but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                          > needed! This is what structured
                          > (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                          > order to control groups of people.
                          > I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                          > don't want to see the correlation
                          > and connect-the- dots.
                          >
                          > Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                          > the-dots? It probably has to do
                          > with their feelings of being "Superior
                          > Normal" and the delusion that
                          > gives them "all the answers" in
                          > order to alleviate their doubts
                          > and fears. The ego makes a better
                          > servant than it does a master,
                          > but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                          > hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                          > ego from Soul.
                          >
                          > Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                          > (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                          > writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                          > H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                          > What has Klemp been teaching
                          > his followers since he's been
                          > in charge?
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                          >
                          > So true. I really enjoyed your
                          > experiment.
                          >
                          > I used to do that sort of stuff
                          > until it became more sad than
                          > amusing.
                          >
                          > Also, a while back, I forgot
                          > to mention the books of
                          > Alan Watts, starting with
                          > "The Way of Zen" and
                          > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                          >
                          > The second title, of course,
                          > is a paradox, but one that
                          > makes sense without having
                          > to go too far into the book
                          > to see what he is talking about.
                          >
                          > One doesn't have to be necessarily
                          > into Zen or even Buddhism to
                          > understand where he was coming
                          > from.
                          >
                          > His books are very easy to read
                          > and are somewhat humorous.
                          >
                          > Interestingly, he obtained
                          > a master's degree in theology
                          > and "divinity" but went on to
                          > write twenty to thirty books
                          > on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                          > philosophies, and the psychology
                          > of religion, and the importance
                          > of mysticism insofar as the
                          > individual transcending man-
                          > made religion.
                          >
                          > whitemoby wrote:
                          >
                          > Truth can never by systemized,
                          > no matter how eloquently.
                          >
                          > Moby
                          >
                          > Rebazar Tarzs wrote:
                          >
                          > In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                          > after following instructions
                          > to the letter, but not losing
                          > his intuition, begins to question
                          > everything, and comes to
                          > see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                          > favorite or not-so-favorite
                          > community Utopia) as a kind
                          > of ivory tower, oblivious to
                          > real life, and thus, reality.
                          >
                          > He begins to realize that,
                          > after many years, and many
                          > relationships, Castilia is a
                          > self-protected society that
                          > does little, if anything, for
                          > the world outside its borders,
                          > and is burderned by a hierarchy
                          > of personalities and games
                          > people play.
                          >
                          > I won't reveal any more than
                          > this, in case someone is
                          > currently reading "Magister
                          > Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                          > but I will say this - throughout
                          > the whole story, Bruce Willis
                          > is dead.
                          >
                          > What?!?
                          >
                          > No, actually, the truth seeker,
                          > Knecht (which, in German,
                          > means servant and/or knight)
                          > (or so the Germans would have
                          > us believe) is, to the dumb-
                          > foundment of his "superiors",
                          > really looking for truth.
                          >
                          > No substitutes.
                          >
                          > I hope I didn't give away too
                          > much, as the book is almost
                          > 600 pages long, but, actually,
                          > I haven't, because there is
                          > so much truth in the story
                          > that everytime I re-read it,
                          > I realize something new.
                          >
                          > I know we used to say that
                          > about certain ECK books
                          > (before Harold) but the
                          > stuff that Paul took from
                          > others is timeless as well.
                          >
                          > What was kind of amusing
                          > is that when I read the book
                          > the first time, Darwin was
                          > the "Master."
                          >
                          > One of the first main characters
                          > in the story is the "Music Master."
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                          > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                          >
                          > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                          > It is no less than the highest
                          > reason that an entire future
                          > civilization exists. It is the
                          > grand and ongoing synthesis
                          > of all knowledge into a unified,
                          > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                          >
                          > It is an attempt to forge a
                          > holographic intellectual world
                          > where all is interconnected and
                          > reflected in every part. This is
                          > a mission to weave the golden
                          > thread of significance and meaning
                          > through every part of a culture-
                          > science and the arts and the
                          > spiritual are all unified into a
                          > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                          > rings.
                          >
                          > All this is primarily accomplished
                          > by using the language of music
                          > and mathematics as common
                          > universal symbolism (the "glass
                          > beads" are part of a symbolic
                          > physical aid that was once used
                          > for this purpose.)
                          >
                          > It is no wonder that the book
                          > places the first origins of the
                          > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                          > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                          > that the League of Journeyers
                          > to the East also figure prominently
                          > in its development. To some
                          > extent the Game has been the
                          > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                          > individuals and groups down
                          > through the ages.
                          >
                          > All of this stands in stark contrast
                          > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                          > where all knowledge, all culture,
                          > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                          > largely meaningless babble.
                          >
                          > The crisis that develops from
                          > this is that even if you accomplish
                          > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                          > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                          > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                          >
                          > It is necessary to reach out to the
                          > entire society once it is achieved
                          > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                          > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                          > mankind instead of individually
                          > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                          > society must be made whole and
                          > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                          >
                          > This is the realization that comes
                          > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                          > Master of the Game.
                          >
                          > For the game to be ultimately
                          > meaningful we have to coach
                          > everyone to eventually become
                          > Masters."

                          **********************************

                          > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                          > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                          > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                          > the religious strings attached? Not by
                          > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                          > to their membership donations or else
                          > they can lose initiations!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          That is when I began to discover the books we weren t supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to connect the dots, to trace the history of
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 15, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                            supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
                            connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                            all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                            R.T.

                            Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
                            about Kal Niranjan, etc.

                            Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
                            issued from Sat Purush.

                            "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
                            Niranjan was incarnated."

                            http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                            This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
                            lower worlds were created.

                            I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

                            Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
                            Eckankar?

                            "No written instructions had been put down for the
                            followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
                            sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
                            took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
                            ancient science of Soul Travel."

                            [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
                            (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
                            p. 59]

                            And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
                            Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
                            gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

                            Etznab

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                            Thinking?

                             






                            Hi there!
                             
                            The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                             
                            Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                            short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                            my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                            idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                            point.
                             
                            I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
                            son,
                            but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                            the margins
                            of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
                            order
                            to have any kind of relationship with Spirit.
                             
                            And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                            Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                             
                            How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                             
                            And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                             
                            It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                             
                            That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                            supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                            connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                            all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                             
                            And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                            throughout history.
                             
                            Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                             
                            I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                            say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                            psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                             
                            If things go well, it is because of Harold. If not, it is because
                            the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                             
                            Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                             
                            Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                             
                            Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                             
                            Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                            out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences", but fear of the
                            unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                            BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                             
                            They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                            Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                             
                            With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                            are in Eckankar.
                             
                            What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                            or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations"!
                             
                            What could be worse than that? 
                             
                            Or being "demoted" as a person in any way?
                             
                            They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                             
                            They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                            but it is psychological.
                             
                            Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                             
                            The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                             
                            But you knew that!
                             
                             
                             
                                     
                             
                                   

                            --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            wrote:


                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM


                             

                            Hello All,
                            Thanks for sharing your
                            comments and the info
                            about these books!

                            As far as "transcending
                            religion" it seems that this
                            is what we thought we were
                            doing when we joined the
                            "path" of Eckankar way back
                            when.

                            Early on, Eckankar seemed
                            to have a certain mystique
                            about it. The reality, now,
                            is that it was never what we
                            imagined or desired. This
                            PT/HK consciousness is based
                            upon delusions, lies, and
                            manipulations frozen
                            in time as meaningless and
                            imagined experiences and
                            dreams via Klemp's over-
                            simplified and mind numbing
                            hypnotic message. This is
                            the "real" reason people fall
                            asleep during his talks! And,
                            there's No spiritual meat
                            (protein)!

                            The Eckankar message is
                            merely a redundancy and
                            regurgitation of empty 2nd
                            and 4th Plane thoughts and
                            words.

                            PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                            Westernized rewrite of the

                            Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                            once borrowed and plagiarized
                            (compiled) from Sant Mat
                            religions (etc.), and from
                            more knowledgeable/
                            enlightened people by
                            the trickster Twitchell.

                            HK's EK "path" has not only
                            become Christianized, but
                            has also been exposed as
                            just another "Feel Good"
                            religious sect that preaches
                            one thing and does another!
                            It's a Codependent scam!

                            Thus, the Klemps' egos
                            are feeling pretty good
                            right now and the "trickle-
                            down effect" is still sustaining
                            their EK followers/sheep/
                            chickens in the same ways
                            as other religions work their
                            magic on the numb, dumb,
                            fearful, and superstitious
                            masses.

                            Still, for Eckists who think
                            they can see beyond the
                            veil/void it's amazing to
                            see that they are quite
                            incapable of true change
                            and of discovering the
                            real path of TRUTH, and
                            of experiencing the art
                            of the obvious.


                            Truth has escaped these
                            Eckists and they will forever
                            remain a pawn of the KAL
                            and under Klemp's trance
                            of providing "sales service."

                            This, of course, benefits HK's
                            selfish motives, and, on the
                            other hand, it helps to give
                            Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                            This is why Klemp feels he
                            is doing no harm since it
                            provides of service for lost
                            Souls until they become advanced
                            enough to realize they don't
                            need a middleman.

                            However, the "catch" lies
                            within the promises made
                            and the innate desire of
                            soul to "Know" God and to
                            return Home again. Eckankar
                            manipulates this desire with
                            "initiations" that are turned
                            into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                            However, Not Desiring Initiations
                            (via a pure heart) is another
                            trap/test that has merely been
                            disguised while the "desire"
                            remains hidden from outer
                            sight. Thus, it seems to be
                            okay to "imagine" (and still
                            desire)
                            higher initiations on
                            the "INNER" via the ruse of
                            needing a Mahanta for more
                            and more of these fake initiations
                            in order to expand consciousness
                            for more and more spiritual
                            progress.

                            Eckists are chasing their tails
                            via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                            rendition of circular logic and
                            thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                            and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                            in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                            is training Eckists to become
                            more and more Codependent
                            upon the Mahanta and their
                            desires and attachments?

                            Look at the ECK stories... they
                            all require the intercession and
                            help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                            via self-hypnosis and programming,
                            (attachment) are being taught
                            to call upon the Mahanta for
                            anything and everything.. . but
                            where is Soul and where is the
                            ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                            one mouthes certain "charged"
                            4th Plane words or thinks he/
                            she is "detached" doesn't make

                            it so!

                            What's interesting is that these
                            two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                            don't require money in order
                            to maintain (outer and Inner
                            initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                            but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                            needed! This is what structured
                            (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                            order to control groups of people.
                            I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                            don't want to see the correlation
                            and connect-the- dots.

                            Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                            the-dots? It probably has to do
                            with their feelings of being "Superior
                            Normal" and the delusion that
                            gives them "all the answers" in
                            order to alleviate their doubts
                            and fears. The ego makes a better
                            servant than it does a master,
                            but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                            hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                            ego from Soul.

                            Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                            (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                            writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                            H.I.
                            Letter, one has to wonder...
                            What has Klemp been teaching
                            his followers since he's been
                            in charge?

                            Prometheus

                            realbizarretarzs wrote:

                            So true. I really enjoyed your
                            experiment.

                            I used to do that sort of stuff
                            until it became more sad than
                            amusing.

                            Also, a while back, I forgot
                            to mention the books of
                            Alan Watts, starting with
                            "The Way of Zen" and
                            "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                            The second title, of course,
                            is a paradox, but one that
                            makes sense without having
                            to go too far into the book
                            to see what he is talking about.

                            One doesn't have to be necessarily
                            into Zen or even Buddhism to
                            understand where he was coming
                            from.

                            His books are very easy to read
                            and are somewhat humorous.

                            Interestingly, he obtained
                            a master's degree in theology
                            and "divinity" but went on to
                            write twenty to thirty books
                            on Zen and Indian and
                            Chinese
                            philosophies, and the psychology
                            of religion, and the importance
                            of mysticism insofar as the
                            individual transcending man-
                            made religion.

                            whitemoby wrote:

                            Truth can never by systemized,
                            no matter how eloquently.

                            Moby

                            Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                            In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                            after following instructions
                            to the letter, but not losing
                            his intuition, begins to question
                            everything, and comes to
                            see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                            favorite or not-so-favorite
                            community Utopia) as a kind
                            of ivory tower, oblivious to
                            real life, and thus, reality.

                            He begins to realize that,
                            after many years, and many
                            relationships, Castilia is a
                            self-protected society that
                            does little, if anything, for
                            the world outside its borders,
                            and is burderned by a hierarchy
                            of personalities and games
                            people play.

                            I won't reveal any more than
                            this, in
                            case someone is
                            currently reading "Magister
                            Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                            but I will say this - throughout
                            the whole story, Bruce Willis
                            is dead.

                            What?!?

                            No, actually, the truth seeker,
                            Knecht (which, in German,
                            means servant and/or knight)
                            (or so the Germans would have
                            us believe) is, to the dumb-
                            foundment of his "superiors",
                            really looking for truth.

                            No substitutes.

                            I hope I didn't give away too
                            much, as the book is almost
                            600 pages long, but, actually,
                            I haven't, because there is
                            so much truth in the story
                            that everytime I re-read it,
                            I realize something new.

                            I know we used to say that
                            about certain ECK books
                            (before Harold) but the
                            stuff that Paul took from
                            others is timeless as well.

                            What was kind of amusing
                            is that when I read the book
                            the first time, Darwin was
                            the "Master."

                            One of the first main characters

                            in the story is the "Music Master."


                            prometheus wrote:

                            Here's a review from Amazon.com
                            of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                            "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                            It is no less than the highest
                            reason that an entire future
                            civilization exists. It is the
                            grand and ongoing synthesis
                            of all knowledge into a unified,
                            integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                            It is an attempt to forge a
                            holographic intellectual world
                            where all is interconnected and
                            reflected in every part. This is
                            a mission to weave the golden
                            thread of significance and meaning
                            through every part of a culture-
                            science and the arts and the
                            spiritual are all unified into a
                            system of concentric, interpenetrating
                            rings.

                            All this is primarily accomplished
                            by using the language of music
                            and mathematics as common
                            universal symbolism (the "glass
                            beads" are part of a symbolic
                            physical
                            aid that was once used
                            for this purpose.)

                            It is no wonder that the book
                            places the first origins of the
                            game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                            and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                            that the League of Journeyers
                            to the East also figure prominently
                            in its development. To some
                            extent the Game has been the
                            goal of all sensitive and introspective
                            individuals and groups down
                            through the ages.

                            All of this stands in stark contrast
                            to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                            where all knowledge, all culture,
                            is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                            largely meaningless babble.

                            The crisis that develops from
                            this is that even if you accomplish
                            this grand synthesis in some isolated
                            ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                            contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                            It is necessary to reach out to the
                            entire society once it is achieved
                            in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                            attempts to enlighten the rest
                            of
                            mankind instead of individually
                            passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                            society must be made whole and
                            sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                            This is the realization that comes
                            even to the Magister Ludi, the
                            Master of the Game.

                            For the game to be ultimately
                            meaningful we have to coach
                            everyone to eventually become
                            Masters."

                            ************ ********* ********* ****

                            Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                            Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                            outflow principle) be accomplished without
                            the religious strings attached? Not by
                            Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                            to their membership donations or else
                            they can lose initiations!

                            Prometheus
                          • Rebazar Tarzs
                            From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.   I don t know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 16, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one
                              (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.
                               
                              I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did
                              (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,
                              these two seemed to be on the same page,
                              so to speak.
                               
                              Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?
                               
                              It is all poetry.
                               
                              Thanks for the link.
                               
                              Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where
                              Kabir got this information.
                               
                              Do you know?  

                              --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                              From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM

                               
                              That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                              supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
                              connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                              all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                              R.T.

                              Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
                              about Kal Niranjan, etc.

                              Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
                              issued from Sat Purush.

                              "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
                              Niranjan was incarnated."

                              http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book& book=4817& page=23

                              This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
                              lower worlds were created.

                              I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

                              Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
                              Eckankar?

                              "No written instructions had been put down for the
                              followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
                              sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
                              took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
                              ancient science of Soul Travel."

                              [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
                              (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
                              p. 59]

                              And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
                              Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
                              gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

                              Etznab

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                              Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                              Thinking?

                               

                              Hi there!
                               
                              The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                               
                              Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                              short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                              my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                              idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                              point.
                               
                              I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
                              son,
                              but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                              the margins
                              of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
                              order
                              to have any kind of relationship with Spirit.
                               
                              And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                              Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                               
                              How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                               
                              And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                               
                              It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                               
                              That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                              supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                              connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                              all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                               
                              And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                              throughout history.
                               
                              Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                               
                              I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                              say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                              psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                               
                              If things go well, it is because of Harold. If not, it is because
                              the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                               
                              Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                               
                              Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                               
                              Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                               
                              Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                              out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the
                              unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                              BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                               
                              They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                              Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                               
                              With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                              are in Eckankar.
                               
                              What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                              or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !
                               
                              What could be worse than that? 
                               
                              Or being "demoted" as a person in any way?
                               
                              They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                               
                              They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                              but it is psychological.
                               
                              Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                               
                              The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                               
                              But you knew that!
                               
                               
                               
                                       
                               
                                     

                              --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@ yahoo.com&gt;
                              wrote:

                              From: prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@ yahoo.com&gt;
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                              Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

                               

                              Hello All,
                              Thanks for sharing your
                              comments and the info
                              about these books!

                              As far as "transcending
                              religion" it seems that this
                              is what we thought we were
                              doing when we joined the
                              "path" of Eckankar way back
                              when.

                              Early on, Eckankar seemed
                              to have a certain mystique
                              about it. The reality, now,
                              is that it was never what we
                              imagined or desired. This
                              PT/HK consciousness is based
                              upon delusions, lies, and
                              manipulations frozen
                              in time as meaningless and
                              imagined experiences and
                              dreams via Klemp's over-
                              simplified and mind numbing
                              hypnotic message. This is
                              the "real" reason people fall
                              asleep during his talks! And,
                              there's No spiritual meat
                              (protein)!

                              The Eckankar message is
                              merely a redundancy and
                              regurgitation of empty 2nd
                              and 4th Plane thoughts and
                              words.

                              PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                              Westernized rewrite of the

                              Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                              once borrowed and plagiarized
                              (compiled) from Sant Mat
                              religions (etc.), and from
                              more knowledgeable/
                              enlightened people by
                              the trickster Twitchell.

                              HK's EK "path" has not only
                              become Christianized, but
                              has also been exposed as
                              just another "Feel Good"
                              religious sect that preaches
                              one thing and does another!
                              It's a Codependent scam!

                              Thus, the Klemps' egos
                              are feeling pretty good
                              right now and the "trickle-
                              down effect" is still sustaining
                              their EK followers/sheep/
                              chickens in the same ways
                              as other religions work their
                              magic on the numb, dumb,
                              fearful, and superstitious
                              masses.

                              Still, for Eckists who think
                              they can see beyond the
                              veil/void it's amazing to
                              see that they are quite
                              incapable of true change
                              and of discovering the
                              real path of TRUTH, and
                              of experiencing the art
                              of the obvious.

                              Truth has escaped these
                              Eckists and they will forever
                              remain a pawn of the KAL
                              and under Klemp's trance
                              of providing "sales service."

                              This, of course, benefits HK's
                              selfish motives, and, on the
                              other hand, it helps to give
                              Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                              This is why Klemp feels he
                              is doing no harm since it
                              provides of service for lost
                              Souls until they become advanced
                              enough to realize they don't
                              need a middleman.

                              However, the "catch" lies
                              within the promises made
                              and the innate desire of
                              soul to "Know" God and to
                              return Home again. Eckankar
                              manipulates this desire with
                              "initiations" that are turned
                              into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                              However, Not Desiring Initiations
                              (via a pure heart) is another
                              trap/test that has merely been
                              disguised while the "desire"
                              remains hidden from outer
                              sight. Thus, it seems to be
                              okay to "imagine" (and still
                              desire)
                              higher initiations on
                              the "INNER" via the ruse of
                              needing a Mahanta for more
                              and more of these fake initiations
                              in order to expand consciousness
                              for more and more spiritual
                              progress.

                              Eckists are chasing their tails
                              via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                              rendition of circular logic and
                              thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                              and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                              in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                              is training Eckists to become
                              more and more Codependent
                              upon the Mahanta and their
                              desires and attachments?

                              Look at the ECK stories... they
                              all require the intercession and
                              help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                              via self-hypnosis and programming,
                              (attachment) are being taught
                              to call upon the Mahanta for
                              anything and everything.. . but
                              where is Soul and where is the
                              ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                              one mouthes certain "charged"
                              4th Plane words or thinks he/
                              she is "detached" doesn't make

                              it so!

                              What's interesting is that these
                              two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                              don't require money in order
                              to maintain (outer and Inner
                              initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                              but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                              needed! This is what structured
                              (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                              order to control groups of people.
                              I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                              don't want to see the correlation
                              and connect-the- dots.

                              Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                              the-dots? It probably has to do
                              with their feelings of being "Superior
                              Normal" and the delusion that
                              gives them "all the answers" in
                              order to alleviate their doubts
                              and fears. The ego makes a better
                              servant than it does a master,
                              but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                              hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                              ego from Soul.

                              Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                              (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                              writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                              H.I.
                              Letter, one has to wonder...
                              What has Klemp been teaching
                              his followers since he's been
                              in charge?

                              Prometheus

                              realbizarretarzs wrote:

                              So true. I really enjoyed your
                              experiment.

                              I used to do that sort of stuff
                              until it became more sad than
                              amusing.

                              Also, a while back, I forgot
                              to mention the books of
                              Alan Watts, starting with
                              "The Way of Zen" and
                              "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                              The second title, of course,
                              is a paradox, but one that
                              makes sense without having
                              to go too far into the book
                              to see what he is talking about.

                              One doesn't have to be necessarily
                              into Zen or even Buddhism to
                              understand where he was coming
                              from.

                              His books are very easy to read
                              and are somewhat humorous.

                              Interestingly, he obtained
                              a master's degree in theology
                              and "divinity" but went on to
                              write twenty to thirty books
                              on Zen and Indian and
                              Chinese
                              philosophies, and the psychology
                              of religion, and the importance
                              of mysticism insofar as the
                              individual transcending man-
                              made religion.

                              whitemoby wrote:

                              Truth can never by systemized,
                              no matter how eloquently.

                              Moby

                              Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                              In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                              after following instructions
                              to the letter, but not losing
                              his intuition, begins to question
                              everything, and comes to
                              see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                              favorite or not-so-favorite
                              community Utopia) as a kind
                              of ivory tower, oblivious to
                              real life, and thus, reality.

                              He begins to realize that,
                              after many years, and many
                              relationships, Castilia is a
                              self-protected society that
                              does little, if anything, for
                              the world outside its borders,
                              and is burderned by a hierarchy
                              of personalities and games
                              people play.

                              I won't reveal any more than
                              this, in
                              case someone is
                              currently reading "Magister
                              Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                              but I will say this - throughout
                              the whole story, Bruce Willis
                              is dead.

                              What?!?

                              No, actually, the truth seeker,
                              Knecht (which, in German,
                              means servant and/or knight)
                              (or so the Germans would have
                              us believe) is, to the dumb-
                              foundment of his "superiors",
                              really looking for truth.

                              No substitutes.

                              I hope I didn't give away too
                              much, as the book is almost
                              600 pages long, but, actually,
                              I haven't, because there is
                              so much truth in the story
                              that everytime I re-read it,
                              I realize something new.

                              I know we used to say that
                              about certain ECK books
                              (before Harold) but the
                              stuff that Paul took from
                              others is timeless as well.

                              What was kind of amusing
                              is that when I read the book
                              the first time, Darwin was
                              the "Master."

                              One of the first main characters

                              in the story is the "Music Master."

                              prometheus wrote:

                              Here's a review from Amazon.com
                              of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                              "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                              It is no less than the highest
                              reason that an entire future
                              civilization exists. It is the
                              grand and ongoing synthesis
                              of all knowledge into a unified,
                              integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                              It is an attempt to forge a
                              holographic intellectual world
                              where all is interconnected and
                              reflected in every part. This is
                              a mission to weave the golden
                              thread of significance and meaning
                              through every part of a culture-
                              science and the arts and the
                              spiritual are all unified into a
                              system of concentric, interpenetrating
                              rings.

                              All this is primarily accomplished
                              by using the language of music
                              and mathematics as common
                              universal symbolism (the "glass
                              beads" are part of a symbolic
                              physical
                              aid that was once used
                              for this purpose.)

                              It is no wonder that the book
                              places the first origins of the
                              game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                              and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                              that the League of Journeyers
                              to the East also figure prominently
                              in its development. To some
                              extent the Game has been the
                              goal of all sensitive and introspective
                              individuals and groups down
                              through the ages.

                              All of this stands in stark contrast
                              to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                              where all knowledge, all culture,
                              is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                              largely meaningless babble.

                              The crisis that develops from
                              this is that even if you accomplish
                              this grand synthesis in some isolated
                              ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                              contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                              It is necessary to reach out to the
                              entire society once it is achieved
                              in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                              attempts to enlighten the rest
                              of
                              mankind instead of individually
                              passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                              society must be made whole and
                              sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                              This is the realization that comes
                              even to the Magister Ludi, the
                              Master of the Game.

                              For the game to be ultimately
                              meaningful we have to coach
                              everyone to eventually become
                              Masters."

                              ************ ********* ********* ****

                              Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                              Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                              outflow principle) be accomplished without
                              the religious strings attached? Not by
                              Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                              to their membership donations or else
                              they can lose initiations!

                              Prometheus


                            • etznab@aol.com
                              I don t have the book by Kabir that you mentioned. And I don t know that he ever mentioned ek onkar. Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked similar to
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.
                                And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

                                Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked
                                similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I
                                believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I
                                saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed
                                over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks
                                similar in some ways, but different.

                                http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html

                                Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and
                                Kapila.

                                In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh
                                are mentioned here.

                                http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html

                                It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak
                                Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

                                The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the
                                teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number
                                of similarities. IMO.

                                The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are
                                curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya
                                philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show
                                the order and sequence of creation.)

                                The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

                                It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for
                                Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by
                                Kabir.

                                The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

                                The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.

                                http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                The apparent tendency in both systems seems
                                to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

                                From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

                                "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:
                                When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was
                                incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the
                                body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"

                                http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described
                                as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's
                                story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,
                                where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

                                IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are
                                the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths
                                literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas
                                that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal
                                organized religious interpretations which may be far,
                                far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-
                                come disconnected from the true origins of their path
                                appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"
                                leading the "blind".

                                As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

                                See what I mean? :)

                                For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)
                                is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To
                                look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

                                Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and
                                clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have
                                visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't
                                have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths
                                except when they are taken literally and people don't see
                                the difference between fiction and fact.

                                Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can
                                the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell
                                from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

                                I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from
                                the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and
                                keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same
                                teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the
                                lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

                                Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-
                                ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

                                However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these
                                stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.
                                Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of
                                them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those
                                sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be
                                they members of a particular religion or not - often have
                                to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms
                                of "torture" for speaking their minds.

                                Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-
                                pool and everything goes down the drain? :)

                                Etznab






                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am
                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                                Thinking?

                                 






                                From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one
                                (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.
                                 
                                I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did
                                (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,
                                these two seemed to be on the same page,
                                so to speak.
                                 
                                Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?
                                 
                                It is all poetry.
                                 
                                Thanks for the link.
                                 
                                Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where
                                Kabir got this information.
                                 
                                Do you know?  

                                --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:


                                From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                                Thinking?
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM


                                 

                                That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                                supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
                                connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                                all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                                R.T.

                                Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
                                about Kal Niranjan, etc.

                                Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
                                issued from Sat Purush.

                                "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
                                Niranjan was incarnated."

                                http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&
                                book=4817& page=23

                                This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
                                lower worlds were created.

                                I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

                                Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
                                Eckankar?

                                "No written instructions had been put
                                down for the
                                followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
                                sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
                                took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
                                ancient science of Soul Travel."

                                [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
                                (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
                                p. 59]

                                And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
                                Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
                                gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

                                Etznab

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                                Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                                Thinking?

                                 

                                Hi there!
                                 
                                The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                                 
                                Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                                short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                                my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                                idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                                point.
                                 
                                I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
                                son,
                                but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                                the margins
                                of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
                                order
                                to have any kind
                                of relationship with Spirit.
                                 
                                And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                                Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                                 
                                How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                                 
                                And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                                 
                                It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                                 
                                That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                                supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                                connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                                all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                                 
                                And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                                throughout history.
                                 
                                Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                                 
                                I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                                say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                                psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                                 
                                If things go well, it is because of Harold. If
                                not, it is because
                                the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                                 
                                Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                                 
                                Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                                 
                                Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                                 
                                Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                                out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the
                                unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                                BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                                 
                                They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                                Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                                 
                                With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                                are in Eckankar.
                                 
                                What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                                or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !
                                 
                                What could be worse than that? 
                                 
                                Or being "demoted" as a person in any
                                way?
                                 
                                They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                                 
                                They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                                but it is psychological.
                                 
                                Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                                 
                                The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                                 
                                But you knew that!
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                         
                                 
                                       

                                --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                                wrote:

                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                                Subject:
                                [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                                Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

                                 

                                Hello All,
                                Thanks for sharing your
                                comments and the info
                                about these books!

                                As far as "transcending
                                religion" it seems that this
                                is what we thought we were
                                doing when we joined the
                                "path" of Eckankar way back
                                when.

                                Early on, Eckankar seemed
                                to have a certain mystique
                                about it. The reality, now,
                                is that it was never what we
                                imagined or desired. This
                                PT/HK consciousness is based
                                upon delusions, lies, and
                                manipulations frozen
                                in time as meaningless and
                                imagined experiences and
                                dreams via Klemp's over-
                                simplified and mind
                                numbing
                                hypnotic message. This is
                                the "real" reason people fall
                                asleep during his talks! And,
                                there's No spiritual meat
                                (protein)!

                                The Eckankar message is
                                merely a redundancy and
                                regurgitation of empty 2nd
                                and 4th Plane thoughts and
                                words.

                                PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                                Westernized rewrite of the

                                Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                                once borrowed and plagiarized
                                (compiled) from Sant Mat
                                religions (etc.), and from
                                more knowledgeable/
                                enlightened people by
                                the trickster Twitchell.

                                HK's EK "path" has not only
                                become Christianized, but
                                has also been exposed as
                                just another "Feel Good"
                                religious sect that preaches
                                one thing and does another!
                                It's a Codependent scam!

                                Thus, the Klemps' egos
                                are feeling pretty good
                                right now and the "trickle-
                                down effect" is still sustaining
                                their EK followers/sheep/
                                chickens in the same ways
                                as other religions work
                                their
                                magic on the numb, dumb,
                                fearful, and superstitious
                                masses.

                                Still, for Eckists who think
                                they can see beyond the
                                veil/void it's amazing to
                                see that they are quite
                                incapable of true change
                                and of discovering the
                                real path of TRUTH, and
                                of experiencing the art
                                of the obvious.

                                Truth has escaped these
                                Eckists and they will forever
                                remain a pawn of the KAL
                                and under Klemp's trance
                                of providing "sales service."

                                This, of course, benefits HK's
                                selfish motives, and, on the
                                other hand, it helps to give
                                Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                                This is why Klemp feels he
                                is doing no harm since it
                                provides of service for lost
                                Souls until they become advanced
                                enough to realize they don't
                                need a middleman.

                                However, the "catch" lies
                                within the promises made
                                and the innate desire of
                                soul to "Know" God and to
                                return Home again. Eckankar
                                manipulates this desire
                                with
                                "initiations" that are turned
                                into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                                However, Not Desiring Initiations
                                (via a pure heart) is another
                                trap/test that has merely been
                                disguised while the "desire"
                                remains hidden from outer
                                sight. Thus, it seems to be
                                okay to "imagine" (and still
                                desire)
                                higher initiations on
                                the "INNER" via the ruse of
                                needing a Mahanta for more
                                and more of these fake initiations
                                in order to expand consciousness
                                for more and more spiritual
                                progress.

                                Eckists are chasing their tails
                                via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                                rendition of circular logic and
                                thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                                and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                                in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                                is training Eckists to become
                                more and more Codependent
                                upon the Mahanta and their
                                desires and attachments?

                                Look at the ECK stories... they
                                all require the intercession and
                                help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                                via
                                self-hypnosis and programming,
                                (attachment) are being taught
                                to call upon the Mahanta for
                                anything and everything.. . but
                                where is Soul and where is the
                                ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                                one mouthes certain "charged"
                                4th Plane words or thinks he/
                                she is "detached" doesn't make

                                it so!

                                What's interesting is that these
                                two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                                don't require money in order
                                to maintain (outer and Inner
                                initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                                but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                                needed! This is what structured
                                (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                                order to control groups of people.
                                I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                                don't want to see the correlation
                                and connect-the- dots.

                                Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                                the-dots? It probably has to do
                                with their feelings of being "Superior
                                Normal" and the delusion that
                                gives them "all the answers" in
                                order to alleviate their
                                doubts
                                and fears. The ego makes a better
                                servant than it does a master,
                                but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                                hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                                ego from Soul.

                                Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                                (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                                writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                                H.I.
                                Letter, one has to wonder...
                                What has Klemp been teaching
                                his followers since he's been
                                in charge?

                                Prometheus

                                realbizarretarzs wrote:

                                So true. I really enjoyed your
                                experiment.

                                I used to do that sort of stuff
                                until it became more sad than
                                amusing.

                                Also, a while back, I forgot
                                to mention the books of
                                Alan Watts, starting with
                                "The Way of Zen" and
                                "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                                The second title, of course,
                                is a paradox, but one that
                                makes sense without having
                                to go too far into the book
                                to see what he is talking about.

                                One doesn't have to be necessarily
                                into Zen or even
                                Buddhism to
                                understand where he was coming
                                from.

                                His books are very easy to read
                                and are somewhat humorous.

                                Interestingly, he obtained
                                a master's degree in theology
                                and "divinity" but went on to
                                write twenty to thirty books
                                on Zen and Indian and
                                Chinese
                                philosophies, and the psychology
                                of religion, and the importance
                                of mysticism insofar as the
                                individual transcending man-
                                made religion.

                                whitemoby wrote:

                                Truth can never by systemized,
                                no matter how eloquently.

                                Moby

                                Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                                In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                                after following instructions
                                to the letter, but not losing
                                his intuition, begins to question
                                everything, and comes to
                                see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                                favorite or not-so-favorite
                                community Utopia) as a kind
                                of ivory tower, oblivious to
                                real life, and thus, reality.

                                He begins to realize that,
                                after many years, and
                                many
                                relationships, Castilia is a
                                self-protected society that
                                does little, if anything, for
                                the world outside its borders,
                                and is burderned by a hierarchy
                                of personalities and games
                                people play.

                                I won't reveal any more than
                                this, in
                                case someone is
                                currently reading "Magister
                                Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                                but I will say this - throughout
                                the whole story, Bruce Willis
                                is dead.

                                What?!?

                                No, actually, the truth seeker,
                                Knecht (which, in German,
                                means servant and/or knight)
                                (or so the Germans would have
                                us believe) is, to the dumb-
                                foundment of his "superiors",
                                really looking for truth.

                                No substitutes.

                                I hope I didn't give away too
                                much, as the book is almost
                                600 pages long, but, actually,
                                I haven't, because there is
                                so much truth in the story
                                that everytime I re-read it,
                                I realize something new.

                                I know we used to say that
                                about certain
                                ECK books
                                (before Harold) but the
                                stuff that Paul took from
                                others is timeless as well.

                                What was kind of amusing
                                is that when I read the book
                                the first time, Darwin was
                                the "Master."

                                One of the first main characters

                                in the story is the "Music Master."

                                prometheus wrote:

                                Here's a review from Amazon.com
                                of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                                "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                                It is no less than the highest
                                reason that an entire future
                                civilization exists. It is the
                                grand and ongoing synthesis
                                of all knowledge into a unified,
                                integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                                It is an attempt to forge a
                                holographic intellectual world
                                where all is interconnected and
                                reflected in every part. This is
                                a mission to weave the golden
                                thread of significance and meaning
                                through every part of a culture-
                                science and the arts and the
                                spiritual are all unified into a
                                system of
                                concentric, interpenetrating
                                rings.

                                All this is primarily accomplished
                                by using the language of music
                                and mathematics as common
                                universal symbolism (the "glass
                                beads" are part of a symbolic
                                physical
                                aid that was once used
                                for this purpose.)

                                It is no wonder that the book
                                places the first origins of the
                                game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                                and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                                that the League of Journeyers
                                to the East also figure prominently
                                in its development. To some
                                extent the Game has been the
                                goal of all sensitive and introspective
                                individuals and groups down
                                through the ages.

                                All of this stands in stark contrast
                                to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                                where all knowledge, all culture,
                                is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                                largely meaningless babble.

                                The crisis that develops from
                                this is that even if you accomplish
                                this grand synthesis in some isolated
                                ivory tower refuge of
                                intellectual
                                contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                                It is necessary to reach out to the
                                entire society once it is achieved
                                in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                                attempts to enlighten the rest
                                of
                                mankind instead of individually
                                passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                                society must be made whole and
                                sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                                This is the realization that comes
                                even to the Magister Ludi, the
                                Master of the Game.

                                For the game to be ultimately
                                meaningful we have to coach
                                everyone to eventually become
                                Masters."

                                ************ ********* ********* ****

                                Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                                Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                                outflow principle) be accomplished without
                                the religious strings attached? Not by
                                Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                                to their membership donations or else
                                they can lose
                                initiations!

                                Prometheus
                              • etznab@aol.com
                                Some time ago I took notice of the words purukh (Purush) and Prakrti (Prakrta). How they contained similar sounds. At the heart of explanations for
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Some time ago I took notice of the words
                                  "purukh" (Purush) and "Prakrti" (Prakrta).
                                  How they contained similar sounds.

                                  At the heart of explanations for creation
                                  and how "material" & "spiritual" coexist
                                  I found those two words. In Indian texts
                                  mostly.

                                  Both words begin by illustrating the con-
                                  sonants P + R. Prakrti, however, appears
                                  to have the Sanskrit root "kr", which IMO
                                  is connected with the ideas of action and
                                  karma. The "ti" part could be a "feminine"
                                  ending (I'm guessing).

                                  Both of those words are at the heart of
                                  creation according to certain teachings.
                                  They also contain the "letters" P + R +
                                  K (when you spell purush as purukh).

                                  Here are some etymologies that may,
                                  or may not help.

                                  prak - "Definitions: previously, before, first[ly]
                                  (Sanskrit).

                                  puru - "Definitions: 'much, many'." (Vedic)

                                  http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/vedol-4-X.html

                                  In the Vedas there is a Dawn Maiden
                                  by the name of Ushas, I believe.

                                  Ushas - "The lovely Hindu dawn maiden who
                                  sprung from the head of Dyaus. The twin sister
                                  of Nakt, or Ratri [the goddess of night] (Hindu
                                  Mythology). Associated spellings/words: usas
                                  ['shining; east'] (Sanskrit); uchanti ['shining']
                                  (Vedic); eos; aurora."

                                  Notice the word uchanti has a "c".

                                  The "c" in Purukh changing to "s" is not very
                                  uncommon. I've seen a number of cases where
                                  the "c" and "k" sounds evolve to "s".

                                  Viva La France! (Home of the Franks :)

                                  In some places the definition for "guru" means
                                  "dispeller of darkness". Now I wonder if that is
                                  connected to the idea of "light bearer"?

                                  Light and darkness are common symbols for
                                  good and evil. However, what does Purukh &
                                  Prakrta really symbolize? [BTW, the latter is
                                  connected with the gender that was once de-
                                  monized in the Bible. The feminine. Consider
                                  also how in many traditions the "Sat Guru" is
                                  (the vehicle of which, at least) is associated
                                  with the opposite, or "masculine" gender.]

                                  Is this really a very unique teaching? The idea
                                  that "God" is male & "Nature" is female? It is
                                  really quite common actually.

                                  In the Anurag Sagar it seemed that Kal Niranjan
                                  wanted to create a world or something. And here
                                  is what it said on the Sant Mat site:

                                  Fifth Shabda – Kal-Niranjan : Full name of the
                                  Negative Power, often shortened to Kal (q.v.).
                                  Niranjan means "beyond illusion," and is applied
                                  to Kal ("Time") because he is the creator of illusion.

                                  http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=24

                                  Kal, the creator of illusion, is Niranjan? Beyond
                                  illusion?

                                  Isn't that special :)

                                  Another name for Kal Niranjan on the site seems
                                  to be Dharam Rai. This being seems to be quite
                                  devotional to Sat Purush. One day, however, the
                                  being appears to say (these are in italics):

                                  "Oh, Sahaj, my brother – go and make this request
                                  to Sat Purush: I don't like this small place. Please
                                  give me a big kingdom. In my heart I have felt such
                                  love for Him! He should bless me with a big place.
                                  He should either give me the world of the gods, or
                                  else a separate world."

                                  http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25

                                  Sat Purush replies (also italics):

                                  After hearing the words of Sahaj, Sat Purush said this:

                                  "I am pleased with Dharam Rai; take this to your heart:
                                  I have given him the three Worlds, now go and tell him
                                  to develop the Void plane. Oh Sahaj, tell him to make
                                  his creation there."

                                  And at the bottom of the page it has a description for
                                  what is the void plane.

                                  "The Void Plane: The three worlds in their pre-existent
                                  state."

                                  http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25

                                  ***************************************************************

                                  Now I am wondering how old are these teachings, the
                                  story, whatever, in the Anurag Sagar? And how do I
                                  know they are the original, for one? And how do I know
                                  it is not the case of one person borrowing from another
                                  and making up their own version of things?

                                  Sant Mat and Eckankar both hearken back to Kabir
                                  when recounting the history of their teachings. And
                                  if Sant Mat was know earlier than the word - and the
                                  modern day - "Eckankar", Where did Sant Mat come
                                  from? Where did Kabir get his teachings? For that
                                  matter.

                                  This is a Wikipedia quote:

                                  The Sant Mat movement was not homogeneous, and
                                  consisted mostly of the Sants' own socio-religious
                                  attitudes which were based on bhakti (devotion) as
                                  described a thousand years earlier in the Bhagavad
                                  Gita.[3] Sharing as few conventions with each other as
                                  with the followers of the traditions they challenged, the
                                  Sants appear more as a diverse collection of spiritual
                                  personalities than a specific religious tradition, although
                                  they acknowledged a common spiritual root.[4]

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sant_Mat

                                  Whether true or not, that gave me the impression of
                                  so many people scattered around the area each with
                                  their own particular form of tradition.

                                  Here is a page with summary for the philosophy of
                                  Kabir.

                                  "The basic religious principles he espoused are simple.
                                  According to Kabir, all life is an interplay of two spiritual
                                  principles. One is the personal soul (Jivatma) and the
                                  other is God (Paramatma). It is Kabir's view that salvation
                                  is the process of bringing into union these two divine
                                  principles."

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir

                                  The bringing into union? Nanak appears to suggest the
                                  contact with Nam. And Radha Soami has the sound
                                  current before spiritual liberation. And before the sound
                                  current, has contact with a living master. Eckankar also
                                  appears to echo the Sat Guru, Shabda & Jivan Mukti
                                  paradigm (notice the word "jiva" in Jivan Mukti).

                                  I'm trying to spell out the "apparent" duality being here
                                  described in symbolic terms. For example, there are
                                  the terms "Atma" and "Jivatma". One appears to mean
                                  the "spiritual" principle of soul and the other the "living"
                                  principle (that tied to matter). Mystic Judaism and even
                                  Islam have different kinds of "souls", too. The "animal"
                                  soul, etc.

                                  What is the "common root" in all of this? Whatever it is
                                  there appear to be dozens of ways (and religions) trying
                                  to explain it. Now it so happens there are a number of
                                  different paths (Eckankar included?) which make seem
                                  as though the prerequisite for spiritual liberation means
                                  joining their particular group? Accepting their particular
                                  "Living Master" (prerequisite meaning what you need to
                                  do first)? Did I spell that right?

                                  Something is wrong with this picture if several different
                                  paths and religions have it that their version is the true
                                  version and all the others are somehow less. Offshoots,
                                  etc.

                                  This post is just a long-winded way of saying I doubt it
                                  that all appear to have a common root. Because if they
                                  did then somebody would have discovered it by now &
                                  painted a picture of the "plant" that has since evolved.
                                  Instead I see a whole orchard of "fruit trees" and even
                                  nobody is actually certain it was an "apple tree" in the
                                  Garden of Eden.

                                  If we had the "root" then wouldn't we have the truth?

                                  Etznab















                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: etznab@...
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 4:04 pm
                                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                                  Thinking?

                                   








                                  I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.

                                  And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.



                                  Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked

                                  similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I

                                  believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I

                                  saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed

                                  over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks

                                  similar in some ways, but different.



                                  http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html



                                  Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and

                                  Kapila.



                                  In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh

                                  are mentioned here.



                                  http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html



                                  It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak

                                  Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)



                                  The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the

                                  teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number

                                  of similarities. IMO.



                                  The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are

                                  curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya

                                  philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show

                                  the order and sequence of creation.)



                                  The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).



                                  It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for

                                  Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by

                                  Kabir.



                                  The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.



                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya



                                  The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.



                                  http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23



                                  The apparent tendency in both systems seems

                                  to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".



                                  From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:



                                  "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:

                                  When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was

                                  incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the

                                  body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"



                                  http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23



                                  I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described

                                  as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's

                                  story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,

                                  where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".



                                  IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are

                                  the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths

                                  literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas

                                  that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal

                                  organized religious interpretations which may be far,

                                  far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-

                                  come disconnected from the true origins of their path

                                  appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"

                                  leading the "blind".



                                  As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!



                                  See what I mean? :)



                                  For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)

                                  is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To

                                  look at where they came from & how the history evolved.



                                  Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and

                                  clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have

                                  visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't

                                  have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths

                                  except when they are taken literally and people don't see

                                  the difference between fiction and fact.



                                  Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can

                                  the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell

                                  from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?



                                  I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from

                                  the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and

                                  keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same

                                  teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the

                                  lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?



                                  Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-

                                  ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?



                                  However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these

                                  stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.

                                  Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of

                                  them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those

                                  sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be

                                  they members of a particular religion or not - often have

                                  to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms

                                  of "torture" for speaking their minds.



                                  Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-

                                  pool and everything goes down the drain? :)



                                  Etznab



                                  -----Original Message-----

                                  From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>

                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                                  Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am

                                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

                                  Thinking?



                                   



                                  From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one

                                  (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.

                                   

                                  I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did

                                  (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,

                                  these two seemed to be on the same page,

                                  so to speak.

                                   

                                  Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?

                                   

                                  It is all poetry.

                                   

                                  Thanks for the link.

                                   

                                  Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where

                                  Kabir got this information.

                                   

                                  Do you know?  



                                  --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:



                                  From: etznab@... <etznab@...>

                                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

                                  Thinking?

                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                                  Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM



                                   



                                  That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

                                  supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to

                                  connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

                                  all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.



                                  R.T.



                                  Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know

                                  about Kal Niranjan, etc.



                                  Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas

                                  issued from Sat Purush.



                                  "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-

                                  Niranjan was incarnated."



                                  http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&

                                  book=4817& page=23



                                  This page tells about it. And the links go to how the

                                  lower worlds were created.



                                  I doubt that is all to be taken literally.



                                  Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on

                                  Eckankar?



                                  "No written instructions had been put

                                  down for the

                                  followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the

                                  sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,

                                  took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the

                                  ancient science of Soul Travel."



                                  [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1

                                  (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,

                                  p. 59]



                                  And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than

                                  Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly

                                  gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).



                                  Etznab



                                  -----Original Message-----

                                  From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>

                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                                  Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm

                                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

                                  Thinking?



                                   



                                  Hi there!

                                   

                                  The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!

                                   

                                  Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published

                                  short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with

                                  my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my

                                  idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very

                                  point.

                                   

                                  I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's

                                  son,

                                  but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in

                                  the margins

                                  of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in

                                  order

                                  to have any kind

                                  of relationship with Spirit.

                                   

                                  And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 

                                  Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 

                                   

                                  How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

                                   

                                  And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

                                   

                                  It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.

                                   

                                  That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

                                  supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 

                                  connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

                                  all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                                   

                                  And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"

                                  throughout history.

                                   

                                  Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

                                   

                                  I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,

                                  say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all

                                  psychologically open to auto-suggestion.

                                   

                                  If things go well, it is because of Harold. If

                                  not, it is because

                                  the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 

                                   

                                  Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

                                   

                                  Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

                                   

                                  Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.

                                   

                                  Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"

                                  out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the

                                  unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering

                                  BECAUSE of Eckankar!

                                   

                                  They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 

                                  Their little world of "Super Normal" people.

                                   

                                  With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"

                                  are in Eckankar.

                                   

                                  What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"

                                  or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !

                                   

                                  What could be worse than that? 

                                   

                                  Or being "demoted" as a person in any

                                  way?

                                   

                                  They give all their power to the heirarchy.

                                   

                                  They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,

                                  but it is psychological.

                                   

                                  Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 

                                   

                                  The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.

                                   

                                  But you knew that!

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                           

                                   

                                         



                                  --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

                                  wrote:



                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

                                  Subject:

                                  [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?

                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                                  Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM



                                   



                                  Hello All,

                                  Thanks for sharing your

                                  comments and the info

                                  about these books!



                                  As far as "transcending

                                  religion" it seems that this

                                  is what we thought we were

                                  doing when we joined the

                                  "path" of Eckankar way back

                                  when.



                                  Early on, Eckankar seemed

                                  to have a certain mystique

                                  about it. The reality, now,

                                  is that it was never what we

                                  imagined or desired. This

                                  PT/HK consciousness is based

                                  upon delusions, lies, and

                                  manipulations frozen

                                  in time as meaningless and

                                  imagined experiences and

                                  dreams via Klemp's over-

                                  simplified and mind

                                  numbing

                                  hypnotic message. This is

                                  the "real" reason people fall

                                  asleep during his talks! And,

                                  there's No spiritual meat

                                  (protein)!



                                  The Eckankar message is

                                  merely a redundancy and

                                  regurgitation of empty 2nd

                                  and 4th Plane thoughts and

                                  words.



                                  PT's Eckankar is a New Age/

                                  Westernized rewrite of the



                                  Eastern thoughts and dogmas

                                  once borrowed and plagiarized

                                  (compiled) from Sant Mat

                                  religions (etc.), and from

                                  more knowledgeable/

                                  enlightened people by

                                  the trickster Twitchell.



                                  HK's EK "path" has not only

                                  become Christianized, but

                                  has also been exposed as

                                  just another "Feel Good"

                                  religious sect that preaches

                                  one thing and does another!

                                  It's a Codependent scam!



                                  Thus, the Klemps' egos

                                  are feeling pretty good

                                  right now and the "trickle-

                                  down effect" is still sustaining

                                  their EK followers/sheep/

                                  chickens in the same ways

                                  as other religions work

                                  their

                                  magic on the numb, dumb,

                                  fearful, and superstitious

                                  masses.



                                  Still, for Eckists who think

                                  they can see beyond the

                                  veil/void it's amazing to

                                  see that they are quite

                                  incapable of true change

                                  and of discovering the

                                  real path of TRUTH, and

                                  of experiencing the art

                                  of the obvious.



                                  Truth has escaped these

                                  Eckists and they will forever

                                  remain a pawn of the KAL

                                  and under Klemp's trance

                                  of providing "sales service."



                                  This, of course, benefits HK's

                                  selfish motives, and, on the

                                  other hand, it helps to give

                                  Eckists a "higher" purpose.

                                  This is why Klemp feels he

                                  is doing no harm since it

                                  provides of service for lost

                                  Souls until they become advanced

                                  enough to realize they don't

                                  need a middleman.



                                  However, the "catch" lies

                                  within the promises made

                                  and the innate desire of

                                  soul to "Know" God and to

                                  return Home again. Eckankar

                                  manipulates this desire

                                  with

                                  "initiations" that are turned

                                  into a KAL "Trap/Test."



                                  However, Not Desiring Initiations

                                  (via a pure heart) is another

                                  trap/test that has merely been

                                  disguised while the "desire"

                                  remains hidden from outer

                                  sight. Thus, it seems to be

                                  okay to "imagine" (and still

                                  desire)

                                  higher initiations on

                                  the "INNER" via the ruse of

                                  needing a Mahanta for more

                                  and more of these fake initiations

                                  in order to expand consciousness

                                  for more and more spiritual

                                  progress.



                                  Eckists are chasing their tails

                                  via Twitchell's and Klemp's

                                  rendition of circular logic and

                                  thinking. How can Self-Mastery

                                  and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished

                                  in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp

                                  is training Eckists to become

                                  more and more Codependent

                                  upon the Mahanta and their

                                  desires and attachments?



                                  Look at the ECK stories... they

                                  all require the intercession and

                                  help of the Mahanta. Eckists,

                                  via

                                  self-hypnosis and programming,

                                  (attachment) are being taught

                                  to call upon the Mahanta for

                                  anything and everything.. . but

                                  where is Soul and where is the

                                  ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because

                                  one mouthes certain "charged"

                                  4th Plane words or thinks he/

                                  she is "detached" doesn't make



                                  it so!



                                  What's interesting is that these

                                  two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)

                                  don't require money in order

                                  to maintain (outer and Inner

                                  initiations) a higher consciousness. ..

                                  but Klemp does! Initiations aren't

                                  needed! This is what structured

                                  (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in

                                  order to control groups of people.

                                  I'm amazed that Eckists can't or

                                  don't want to see the correlation

                                  and connect-the- dots.



                                  Why can't or won't Eckists connect-

                                  the-dots? It probably has to do

                                  with their feelings of being "Superior

                                  Normal" and the delusion that

                                  gives them "all the answers" in

                                  order to alleviate their

                                  doubts

                                  and fears. The ego makes a better

                                  servant than it does a master,

                                  but with "initiations" and a "RESA

                                  hierarchy" Eckists can't separate

                                  ego from Soul.



                                  Thus, when "Starting To Get It"

                                  (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)

                                  writes what she did, in the 09/2009

                                  H.I.

                                  Letter, one has to wonder...

                                  What has Klemp been teaching

                                  his followers since he's been

                                  in charge?



                                  Prometheus



                                  realbizarretarzs wrote:



                                  So true. I really enjoyed your

                                  experiment.



                                  I used to do that sort of stuff

                                  until it became more sad than

                                  amusing.



                                  Also, a while back, I forgot

                                  to mention the books of

                                  Alan Watts, starting with

                                  "The Way of Zen" and

                                  "The Wisdom of Insecurity".



                                  The second title, of course,

                                  is a paradox, but one that

                                  makes sense without having

                                  to go too far into the book

                                  to see what he is talking about.



                                  One doesn't have to be necessarily

                                  into Zen or even

                                  Buddhism to

                                  understand where he was coming

                                  from.



                                  His books are very easy to read

                                  and are somewhat humorous.



                                  Interestingly, he obtained

                                  a master's degree in theology

                                  and "divinity" but went on to

                                  write twenty to thirty books

                                  on Zen and Indian and

                                  Chinese

                                  philosophies, and the psychology

                                  of religion, and the importance

                                  of mysticism insofar as the

                                  individual transcending man-

                                  made religion.



                                  whitemoby wrote:



                                  Truth can never by systemized,

                                  no matter how eloquently.



                                  Moby



                                  Rebazar Tarzs wrote:



                                  In the story, Joseph Knecht,

                                  after following instructions

                                  to the letter, but not losing

                                  his intuition, begins to question

                                  everything, and comes to

                                  see "Castilia" (or, insert your

                                  favorite or not-so-favorite

                                  community Utopia) as a kind

                                  of ivory tower, oblivious to

                                  real life, and thus, reality.



                                  He begins to realize that,

                                  after many years, and

                                  many

                                  relationships, Castilia is a

                                  self-protected society that

                                  does little, if anything, for

                                  the world outside its borders,

                                  and is burderned by a hierarchy

                                  of personalities and games

                                  people play.



                                  I won't reveal any more than

                                  this, in

                                  case someone is

                                  currently reading "Magister

                                  Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"

                                  but I will say this - throughout

                                  the whole story, Bruce Willis

                                  is dead.



                                  What?!?



                                  No, actually, the truth seeker,

                                  Knecht (which, in German,

                                  means servant and/or knight)

                                  (or so the Germans would have

                                  us believe) is, to the dumb-

                                  foundment of his "superiors",

                                  really looking for truth.



                                  No substitutes.



                                  I hope I didn't give away too

                                  much, as the book is almost

                                  600 pages long, but, actually,

                                  I haven't, because there is

                                  so much truth in the story

                                  that everytime I re-read it,

                                  I realize something new.



                                  I know we used to say that

                                  about certain

                                  ECK books

                                  (before Harold) but the

                                  stuff that Paul took from

                                  others is timeless as well.



                                  What was kind of amusing

                                  is that when I read the book

                                  the first time, Darwin was

                                  the "Master."



                                  One of the first main characters



                                  in the story is the "Music Master."



                                  prometheus wrote:



                                  Here's a review from Amazon.com

                                  of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:



                                  "What is the Glass Bead Game?

                                  It is no less than the highest

                                  reason that an entire future

                                  civilization exists. It is the

                                  grand and ongoing synthesis

                                  of all knowledge into a unified,

                                  integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)



                                  It is an attempt to forge a

                                  holographic intellectual world

                                  where all is interconnected and

                                  reflected in every part. This is

                                  a mission to weave the golden

                                  thread of significance and meaning

                                  through every part of a culture-

                                  science and the arts and the

                                  spiritual are all unified into a

                                  system of

                                  concentric, interpenetrating

                                  rings.



                                  All this is primarily accomplished

                                  by using the language of music

                                  and mathematics as common

                                  universal symbolism (the "glass

                                  beads" are part of a symbolic

                                  physical

                                  aid that was once used

                                  for this purpose.)



                                  It is no wonder that the book

                                  places the first origins of the

                                  game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,

                                  and Socratic ethics. No wonder

                                  that the League of Journeyers

                                  to the East also figure prominently

                                  in its development. To some

                                  extent the Game has been the

                                  goal of all sensitive and introspective

                                  individuals and groups down

                                  through the ages.



                                  All of this stands in stark contrast

                                  to our own Feuilletonistic Age

                                  where all knowledge, all culture,

                                  is unsynthesized, chaotic, and

                                  largely meaningless babble.



                                  The crisis that develops from

                                  this is that even if you accomplish

                                  this grand synthesis in some isolated

                                  ivory tower refuge of

                                  intellectual

                                  contemplatives- it isn't enough.



                                  It is necessary to reach out to the

                                  entire society once it is achieved

                                  in the same way that a Bodhisattva

                                  attempts to enlighten the rest

                                  of

                                  mankind instead of individually

                                  passing onto Nirvana. The entire

                                  society must be made whole and

                                  sacred and not just an isolated elite.



                                  This is the realization that comes

                                  even to the Magister Ludi, the

                                  Master of the Game.



                                  For the game to be ultimately

                                  meaningful we have to coach

                                  everyone to eventually become

                                  Masters."



                                  ************ ********* ********* ****



                                  Thus, another reason to justify religion!

                                  Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/

                                  outflow principle) be accomplished without

                                  the religious strings attached? Not by

                                  Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached

                                  to their membership donations or else

                                  they can lose

                                  initiations!



                                  Prometheus
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello Etznab and All, I m wondering why or if Eckists have ever noticed that their religion is dualistic versus non-dualistic. And, have Eckists ever pondered
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Etznab and All,
                                    I'm wondering why or if Eckists
                                    have ever noticed that their religion
                                    is dualistic versus non-dualistic.
                                    And, have Eckists ever pondered
                                    or contemplated on the differences
                                    between the two?

                                    With Klemp everything is black or
                                    white, pos. or neg., outer or inner,
                                    right or wrong, passion or virtue,
                                    low versus high.

                                    Myself... I don't see that these
                                    opposites have anything to do
                                    with the Divine. It's more about
                                    us and how religions have interpreted
                                    the Divine in order to analyze
                                    and explain or understand IT.


                                    Prometheus



                                    etznab wrote:


                                    I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.
                                    And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

                                    Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked
                                    similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I
                                    believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I
                                    saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed
                                    over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks
                                    similar in some ways, but different.

                                    http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html

                                    Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and
                                    Kapila.

                                    In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh
                                    are mentioned here.

                                    http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html

                                    It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak
                                    Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

                                    The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the
                                    teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number
                                    of similarities. IMO.

                                    The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are
                                    curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya
                                    philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show
                                    the order and sequence of creation.)

                                    The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

                                    It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for
                                    Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by
                                    Kabir.

                                    The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.

                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

                                    The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.

                                    http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                    The apparent tendency in both systems seems
                                    to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

                                    From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

                                    "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:
                                    When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was
                                    incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the
                                    body of Sat Purush â€" that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"

                                    http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                    I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described
                                    as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's
                                    story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,
                                    where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

                                    IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are
                                    the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths
                                    literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas
                                    that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal
                                    organized religious interpretations which may be far,
                                    far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-
                                    come disconnected from the true origins of their path
                                    appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"
                                    leading the "blind".

                                    As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

                                    See what I mean? :)

                                    For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)
                                    is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To
                                    look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

                                    Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and
                                    clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have
                                    visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't
                                    have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths
                                    except when they are taken literally and people don't see
                                    the difference between fiction and fact.

                                    Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can
                                    the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell
                                    from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

                                    I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from
                                    the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and
                                    keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same
                                    teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the
                                    lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

                                    Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-
                                    ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

                                    However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these
                                    stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.
                                    Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of
                                    them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those
                                    sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be
                                    they members of a particular religion or not - often have
                                    to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms
                                    of "torture" for speaking their minds.

                                    Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-
                                    pool and everything goes down the drain? :)

                                    Etznab
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.