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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?

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  • Rebazar Tarzs
    In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
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      In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
      losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
      "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
      as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
       
      He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
      Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
      world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
      and games people play.
       
      I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
      "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
      the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
       
      What?!?
       
      No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
      servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
      is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
       
      No substitutes.
       
      I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
      long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
      that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
       
      I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
      but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
       
      What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
      Darwin was the "Master."
       
      One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
       
       
       
        

      --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM

       
      Here's a review from Amazon.com
      of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

      "What is the Glass Bead Game?
      It is no less than the highest
      reason that an entire future
      civilization exists. It is the
      grand and ongoing synthesis
      of all knowledge into a unified,
      integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

      It is an attempt to forge a
      holographic intellectual world
      where all is interconnected and
      reflected in every part. This is
      a mission to weave the golden
      thread of significance and meaning
      through every part of a culture-
      science and the arts and the
      spiritual are all unified into a
      system of concentric, interpenetrating
      rings.

      All this is primarily accomplished
      by using the language of music
      and mathematics as common
      universal symbolism (the "glass
      beads" are part of a symbolic
      physical aid that was once used
      for this purpose.)

      It is no wonder that the book
      places the first origins of the
      game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
      and Socratic ethics. No wonder
      that the League of Journeyers
      to the East also figure prominently
      in its development. To some
      extent the Game has been the
      goal of all sensitive and introspective
      individuals and groups down
      through the ages.

      All of this stands in stark contrast
      to our own Feuilletonistic Age
      where all knowledge, all culture,
      is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
      largely meaningless babble.

      The crisis that develops from
      this is that even if you accomplish
      this grand synthesis in some isolated
      ivory tower refuge of intellectual
      contemplatives- it isn't enough.

      It is necessary to reach out to the
      entire society once it is achieved
      in the same way that a Bodhisattva
      attempts to enlighten the rest of
      mankind instead of individually
      passing onto Nirvana. The entire
      society must be made whole and
      sacred and not just an isolated elite.

      This is the realization that comes
      even to the Magister Ludi, the
      Master of the Game.

      For the game to be ultimately
      meaningful we have to coach
      everyone to eventually become
      Masters."

      ************ ********* ********* ****

      Thus, another reason to justify religion!
      Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
      outflow principle) be accomplished without
      the religious strings attached? Not by
      Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
      to their membership donations or else
      they can lose initiations!

      Prometheus


    • Moby
      Whatever may be one s final opinion of The Glass Bead Game , it is a fascinating read. Herman Hesse was one out-there cat. I know lots of readers, but I
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
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        Whatever may be one's final opinion of "The Glass Bead Game", it is a fascinating read. Herman Hesse was one out-there cat. I know lots of readers, but I can't recall anyone ever mentioning this book. So, again, I have Rebazar to thank.

        It would be pretty interesting to know Herman Hesse's take on Eckankar. But I doubt a mind like his could bend low enough to contemplate it.

        Moby...





        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Here's a review from Amazon.com
        > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
        >
        > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
        > It is no less than the highest
        > reason that an entire future
        > civilization exists. It is the
        > grand and ongoing synthesis
        > of all knowledge into a unified,
        > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
        >
        > It is an attempt to forge a
        > holographic intellectual world
        > where all is interconnected and
        > reflected in every part. This is
        > a mission to weave the golden
        > thread of significance and meaning
        > through every part of a culture-
        > science and the arts and the
        > spiritual are all unified into a
        > system of concentric, interpenetrating
        > rings.
        >
        > All this is primarily accomplished
        > by using the language of music
        > and mathematics as common
        > universal symbolism (the "glass
        > beads" are part of a symbolic
        > physical aid that was once used
        > for this purpose.)
        >
        > It is no wonder that the book
        > places the first origins of the
        > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
        > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
        > that the League of Journeyers
        > to the East also figure prominently
        > in its development. To some
        > extent the Game has been the
        > goal of all sensitive and introspective
        > individuals and groups down
        > through the ages.
        >
        > All of this stands in stark contrast
        > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
        > where all knowledge, all culture,
        > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
        > largely meaningless babble.
        >
        > The crisis that develops from
        > this is that even if you accomplish
        > this grand synthesis in some isolated
        > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
        > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
        >
        > It is necessary to reach out to the
        > entire society once it is achieved
        > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
        > attempts to enlighten the rest of
        > mankind instead of individually
        > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
        > society must be made whole and
        > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
        >
        > This is the realization that comes
        > even to the Magister Ludi, the
        > Master of the Game.
        >
        > For the game to be ultimately
        > meaningful we have to coach
        > everyone to eventually become
        > Masters."
        >
        > **********************************
        >
        > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
        > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
        > outflow principle) be accomplished without
        > the religious strings attached? Not by
        > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
        > to their membership donations or else
        > they can lose initiations!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • Caldwell Jamie
        Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently.  Moby ________________________________ From: Rebazar Tarzs To:
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
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          Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
           
          Moby


          From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?

           

          In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
          losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
          "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
          as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
           
          He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
          Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
          world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
          and games people play.
           
          I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
          "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
          the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
           
          What?!?
           
          No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
          servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
          is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
           
          No substitutes.
           
          I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
          long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
          that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
           
          I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
          but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
           
          What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
          Darwin was the "Master."
           
          One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
           
           
           
            

          --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com> wrote:

          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM

           
          Here's a review from Amazon.com
          of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

          "What is the Glass Bead Game?
          It is no less than the highest
          reason that an entire future
          civilization exists. It is the
          grand and ongoing synthesis
          of all knowledge into a unified,
          integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

          It is an attempt to forge a
          holographic intellectual world
          where all is interconnected and
          reflected in every part. This is
          a mission to weave the golden
          thread of significance and meaning
          through every part of a culture-
          science and the arts and the
          spiritual are all unified into a
          system of concentric, interpenetrating
          rings.

          All this is primarily accomplished
          by using the language of music
          and mathematics as common
          universal symbolism (the "glass
          beads" are part of a symbolic
          physical aid that was once used
          for this purpose.)

          It is no wonder that the book
          places the first origins of the
          game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
          and Socratic ethics. No wonder
          that the League of Journeyers
          to the East also figure prominently
          in its development. To some
          extent the Game has been the
          goal of all sensitive and introspective
          individuals and groups down
          through the ages.

          All of this stands in stark contrast
          to our own Feuilletonistic Age
          where all knowledge, all culture,
          is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
          largely meaningless babble.

          The crisis that develops from
          this is that even if you accomplish
          this grand synthesis in some isolated
          ivory tower refuge of intellectual
          contemplatives- it isn't enough.

          It is necessary to reach out to the
          entire society once it is achieved
          in the same way that a Bodhisattva
          attempts to enlighten the rest of
          mankind instead of individually
          passing onto Nirvana. The entire
          society must be made whole and
          sacred and not just an isolated elite.

          This is the realization that comes
          even to the Magister Ludi, the
          Master of the Game.

          For the game to be ultimately
          meaningful we have to coach
          everyone to eventually become
          Masters."

          ************ ********* ********* ****

          Thus, another reason to justify religion!
          Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
          outflow principle) be accomplished without
          the religious strings attached? Not by
          Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
          to their membership donations or else
          they can lose initiations!

          Prometheus



        • Rebazar Tarzs
          So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.   I used to do that sort of stuff until it became  more sad than amusing.   Also, a while back, I  forgot to
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.
             
            I used to do that sort of stuff until it became 
            more sad than amusing.
             
            Also, a while back, I  forgot to mention the books of
            Alan Watts, starting with "The Way of Zen" and
            "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
             
            The second title, of course, is a paradox, but one that
            makes sense without having to go too far into the book
            to see what he is talking about.
             
            One doesn't have to be necessarily into Zen or even
            Buddhism to understand where he was coming from.
             
            His books are very easy to read and are somewhat humorous.
             
            Interestingly, he obtained a master's degree in theology and
            "divinity" but went on  to write twenty to thirty books on Zen
            and Indian and Chinese philosophies, and the psychology
            of religion, and the importance of mysticism insofar as the
            individual transcending man-made religion.    

            --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...> wrote:

            From: Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...>
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 3:26 PM

             
            Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
             
            Moby


            From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
            Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?

             
            In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
            losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
            "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
            as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
             
            He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
            Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
            world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
            and games people play.
             
            I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
            "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
            the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
             
            What?!?
             
            No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
            servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
            is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
             
            No substitutes.
             
            I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
            long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
            that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
             
            I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
            but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
             
            What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
            Darwin was the "Master."
             
            One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
             
             
             
              

            --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com> wrote:

            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
            Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM

             
            Here's a review from Amazon.com
            of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

            "What is the Glass Bead Game?
            It is no less than the highest
            reason that an entire future
            civilization exists. It is the
            grand and ongoing synthesis
            of all knowledge into a unified,
            integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

            It is an attempt to forge a
            holographic intellectual world
            where all is interconnected and
            reflected in every part. This is
            a mission to weave the golden
            thread of significance and meaning
            through every part of a culture-
            science and the arts and the
            spiritual are all unified into a
            system of concentric, interpenetrating
            rings.

            All this is primarily accomplished
            by using the language of music
            and mathematics as common
            universal symbolism (the "glass
            beads" are part of a symbolic
            physical aid that was once used
            for this purpose.)

            It is no wonder that the book
            places the first origins of the
            game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
            and Socratic ethics. No wonder
            that the League of Journeyers
            to the East also figure prominently
            in its development. To some
            extent the Game has been the
            goal of all sensitive and introspective
            individuals and groups down
            through the ages.

            All of this stands in stark contrast
            to our own Feuilletonistic Age
            where all knowledge, all culture,
            is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
            largely meaningless babble.

            The crisis that develops from
            this is that even if you accomplish
            this grand synthesis in some isolated
            ivory tower refuge of intellectual
            contemplatives- it isn't enough.

            It is necessary to reach out to the
            entire society once it is achieved
            in the same way that a Bodhisattva
            attempts to enlighten the rest of
            mankind instead of individually
            passing onto Nirvana. The entire
            society must be made whole and
            sacred and not just an isolated elite.

            This is the realization that comes
            even to the Magister Ludi, the
            Master of the Game.

            For the game to be ultimately
            meaningful we have to coach
            everyone to eventually become
            Masters."

            ************ ********* ********* ****

            Thus, another reason to justify religion!
            Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
            outflow principle) be accomplished without
            the religious strings attached? Not by
            Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
            to their membership donations or else
            they can lose initiations!

            Prometheus




          • Moby
            Paul Twitchell himself once said, The most we can say about Truth is that is travels in a certain direction. And though he surely copied that from
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Paul Twitchell himself once said, "The most we can say about Truth is that is travels in a certain direction." And though he surely copied that from somewhere, it affected me nonetheless. Too bad Eckankar went on to define Truth and Freedom right out of existence.

              I didn't do that experiment to be cruel, but to actually confirm something for myself. Eckists (at least, many of them) have unconsciosly "attached" to some nebulous, self serving notion of "Eckankar". You cannot use reason against so blind a motivation.

              Alan Watts has long been on my reading list. I may just move him up in the rotation.

              Moby....




              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...> wrote:
              >
              > So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.
              >  
              > I used to do that sort of stuff until it became 
              > more sad than amusing.
              >  
              > Also, a while back, I  forgot to mention the books of
              > Alan Watts, starting with "The Way of Zen" and
              > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
              >  
              > The second title, of course, is a paradox, but one that
              > makes sense without having to go too far into the book
              > to see what he is talking about.
              >  
              > One doesn't have to be necessarily into Zen or even
              > Buddhism to understand where he was coming from.
              >  
              > His books are very easy to read and are somewhat humorous.
              >  
              > Interestingly, he obtained a master's degree in theology and
              > "divinity" but went on  to write twenty to thirty books on Zen
              > and Indian and Chinese philosophies, and the psychology
              > of religion, and the importance of mysticism insofar as the
              > individual transcending man-made religion.    
              >
              > --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@...>
              > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 3:26 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
              >  
              > Moby
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
              > Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
              > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
              > losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
              > "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
              > as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
              >  
              > He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
              > Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
              > world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
              > and games people play.
              >  
              > I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
              > "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
              > the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
              >  
              > What?!?
              >  
              > No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
              > servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
              > is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
              >  
              > No substitutes.
              >  
              > I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
              > long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
              > that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
              >  
              > I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
              > but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
              >  
              > What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
              > Darwin was the "Master."
              >  
              > One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
              >  
              >  
              >  
              >   
              >
              > --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
              > Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              > Here's a review from Amazon.com
              > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
              >
              > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
              > It is no less than the highest
              > reason that an entire future
              > civilization exists. It is the
              > grand and ongoing synthesis
              > of all knowledge into a unified,
              > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
              >
              > It is an attempt to forge a
              > holographic intellectual world
              > where all is interconnected and
              > reflected in every part. This is
              > a mission to weave the golden
              > thread of significance and meaning
              > through every part of a culture-
              > science and the arts and the
              > spiritual are all unified into a
              > system of concentric, interpenetrating
              > rings.
              >
              > All this is primarily accomplished
              > by using the language of music
              > and mathematics as common
              > universal symbolism (the "glass
              > beads" are part of a symbolic
              > physical aid that was once used
              > for this purpose.)
              >
              > It is no wonder that the book
              > places the first origins of the
              > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
              > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
              > that the League of Journeyers
              > to the East also figure prominently
              > in its development. To some
              > extent the Game has been the
              > goal of all sensitive and introspective
              > individuals and groups down
              > through the ages.
              >
              > All of this stands in stark contrast
              > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
              > where all knowledge, all culture,
              > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
              > largely meaningless babble.
              >
              > The crisis that develops from
              > this is that even if you accomplish
              > this grand synthesis in some isolated
              > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
              > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
              >
              > It is necessary to reach out to the
              > entire society once it is achieved
              > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
              > attempts to enlighten the rest of
              > mankind instead of individually
              > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
              > society must be made whole and
              > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
              >
              > This is the realization that comes
              > even to the Magister Ludi, the
              > Master of the Game.
              >
              > For the game to be ultimately
              > meaningful we have to coach
              > everyone to eventually become
              > Masters."
              >
              > ************ ********* ********* ****
              >
              > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
              > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
              > outflow principle) be accomplished without
              > the religious strings attached? Not by
              > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
              > to their membership donations or else
              > they can lose initiations!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
            • Rebazar Tarzs
              A person who is a fanatic in matters of religion, and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe, becomes a person who has no faith ...
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                "A person who is a fanatic in matters of religion,
                and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God
                and the universe, becomes a person who has no
                faith ... True faith is to let go, and become open to truth,
                whatever it might turn out  to be ... But at any rate,
                the point is that God is what nobody admits to being,
                and everybody really is."
                 
                -  Alan Watts
                 
                It seems that Shams of Tabriz a/k/a Shams-i-Tabriz
                a/k/a Shamus-i-Tabriz, was saying the same thing.
                 
                There is one discourse in which Paul says that he didn't
                know any of the "ECK Masters" until after he translated.
                 
                He was the "Mahanta" and didn't know it.
                 
                In other words, he didn't need any help from middle men.  
                 
                Rumi accepted him as a guide, as would any intelligent
                seeker of truth, although most of Rumi's followers thought
                he was crazy for doing so. Of course, he did was he thought
                was best.    
                 
                As Paul once said, "One learns by being around one who knows."   

                --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Moby <whitemoby22@...> wrote:

                From: Moby <whitemoby22@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 5:27 PM

                 
                Paul Twitchell himself once said, "The most we can say about Truth is that is travels in a certain direction." And though he surely copied that from somewhere, it affected me nonetheless. Too bad Eckankar went on to define Truth and Freedom right out of existence.

                I didn't do that experiment to be cruel, but to actually confirm something for myself. Eckists (at least, many of them) have unconsciosly "attached" to some nebulous, self serving notion of "Eckankar". You cannot use reason against so blind a motivation.

                Alan Watts has long been on my reading list. I may just move him up in the rotation.

                Moby....

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > So true. I really enjoyed your experiment.
                >  
                > I used to do that sort of stuff until it became 
                > more sad than amusing.
                >  
                > Also, a while back, I  forgot to mention the books of
                > Alan Watts, starting with "The Way of Zen" and
                > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                >  
                > The second title, of course, is a paradox, but one that
                > makes sense without having to go too far into the book
                > to see what he is talking about.
                >  
                > One doesn't have to be necessarily into Zen or even
                > Buddhism to understand where he was coming from.
                >  
                > His books are very easy to read and are somewhat humorous.
                >  
                > Interestingly, he obtained a master's degree in theology and
                > "divinity" but went on  to write twenty to thirty books on Zen
                > and Indian and Chinese philosophies, and the psychology
                > of religion, and the importance of mysticism insofar as the
                > individual transcending man-made religion.    
                >
                > --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@ ...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: Caldwell Jamie <whitemoby22@ ...>
                > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                > Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 3:26 PM
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Truth can never by systemized, no matter how eloquently. 
                >  
                > Moby
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                > Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 9:17:05 AM
                > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > In the story, Joseph Knecht, after following instructions to the letter, but not
                > losing his intuition, begins to question everything, and comes to see
                > "Castilia" (or, insert your favorite or not-so-favorite community Utopia)
                > as a kind of ivory tower, oblivious to real life, and thus, reality.
                >  
                > He begins to realize that, after many years, and many relationships,
                > Castilia is a self-protected society that does little, if anything, for the
                > world outside its borders, and is burderned by a heirarchy of personalities
                > and games people play.
                >  
                > I won't reveal any more than this, in case someone is currently reading
                > "Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game," but I will say this - throughout
                > the whole story, Bruce Willis is dead.
                >  
                > What?!?
                >  
                > No, actually, the truth seeker, Knecht (which, in German, means
                > servant and/or knight) (or so the Germans would have us believe)
                > is, to the dumbfoundment of his "superiors", really looking for truth.
                >  
                > No substitutes.
                >  
                > I hope I didn't give away too much, as the book is almost 600 pages
                > long, but, actually, I  haven't, because there is so much truth in the story
                > that everytime I re-read it, I realize something new.
                >  
                > I know we used to say that about certain ECK books (before Harold)
                > but the stuff that Paul took from others is timeless as well.
                >  
                > What was kind of  amusing is that when I read the book the first time,
                > Darwin was the "Master."
                >  
                > One of the first main characters in the story is the "Music Master."
                >  
                >  
                >  
                >   
                >
                > --- On Sun, 10/11/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] A Book of Circular Thinking?
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                > Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 11:07 PM
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                >
                > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                > It is no less than the highest
                > reason that an entire future
                > civilization exists. It is the
                > grand and ongoing synthesis
                > of all knowledge into a unified,
                > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                >
                > It is an attempt to forge a
                > holographic intellectual world
                > where all is interconnected and
                > reflected in every part. This is
                > a mission to weave the golden
                > thread of significance and meaning
                > through every part of a culture-
                > science and the arts and the
                > spiritual are all unified into a
                > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                > rings.
                >
                > All this is primarily accomplished
                > by using the language of music
                > and mathematics as common
                > universal symbolism (the "glass
                > beads" are part of a symbolic
                > physical aid that was once used
                > for this purpose.)
                >
                > It is no wonder that the book
                > places the first origins of the
                > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                > that the League of Journeyers
                > to the East also figure prominently
                > in its development. To some
                > extent the Game has been the
                > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                > individuals and groups down
                > through the ages.
                >
                > All of this stands in stark contrast
                > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                > where all knowledge, all culture,
                > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                > largely meaningless babble.
                >
                > The crisis that develops from
                > this is that even if you accomplish
                > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                >
                > It is necessary to reach out to the
                > entire society once it is achieved
                > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                > mankind instead of individually
                > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                > society must be made whole and
                > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                >
                > This is the realization that comes
                > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                > Master of the Game.
                >
                > For the game to be ultimately
                > meaningful we have to coach
                > everyone to eventually become
                > Masters."
                >
                > ************ ********* ********* ****
                >
                > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                > the religious strings attached? Not by
                > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                > to their membership donations or else
                > they can lose initiations!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >


              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, Thanks for sharing your comments and the info about these books! As far as transcending religion it seems that this is what we thought we were
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello All,
                  Thanks for sharing your
                  comments and the info
                  about these books!

                  As far as "transcending
                  religion" it seems that this
                  is what we thought we were
                  doing when we joined the
                  "path" of Eckankar way back
                  when.

                  Early on, Eckankar seemed
                  to have a certain mystique
                  about it. The reality, now,
                  is that it was never what we
                  imagined or desired. This
                  PT/HK consciousness is based
                  upon delusions, lies, and
                  manipulations frozen
                  in time as meaningless and
                  imagined experiences and
                  dreams via Klemp's over-
                  simplified and mind numbing
                  hypnotic message. This is
                  the "real" reason people fall
                  asleep during his talks! And,
                  there's No spiritual meat
                  (protein)!

                  The Eckankar message is
                  merely a redundancy and
                  regurgitation of empty 2nd
                  and 4th Plane thoughts and
                  words.

                  PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                  Westernized rewrite of the
                  Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                  once borrowed and plagiarized
                  (compiled) from Sant Mat
                  religions (etc.), and from
                  more knowledgeable/
                  enlightened people by
                  the trickster Twitchell.

                  HK's EK "path" has not only
                  become Christianized, but
                  has also been exposed as
                  just another "Feel Good"
                  religious sect that preaches
                  one thing and does another!
                  It's a Codependent scam!

                  Thus, the Klemps' egos
                  are feeling pretty good
                  right now and the "trickle-
                  down effect" is still sustaining
                  their EK followers/sheep/
                  chickens in the same ways
                  as other religions work their
                  magic on the numb, dumb,
                  fearful, and superstitious
                  masses.

                  Still, for Eckists who think
                  they can see beyond the
                  veil/void it's amazing to
                  see that they are quite
                  incapable of true change
                  and of discovering the
                  real path of TRUTH, and
                  of experiencing the art
                  of the obvious.

                  Truth has escaped these
                  Eckists and they will forever
                  remain a pawn of the KAL
                  and under Klemp's trance
                  of providing "sales service."

                  This, of course, benefits HK's
                  selfish motives, and, on the
                  other hand, it helps to give
                  Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                  This is why Klemp feels he
                  is doing no harm since it
                  provides of service for lost
                  Souls until they become advanced
                  enough to realize they don't
                  need a middleman.

                  However, the "catch" lies
                  within the promises made
                  and the innate desire of
                  soul to "Know" God and to
                  return Home again. Eckankar
                  manipulates this desire with
                  "initiations" that are turned
                  into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                  However, Not Desiring Initiations
                  (via a pure heart) is another
                  trap/test that has merely been
                  disguised while the "desire"
                  remains hidden from outer
                  sight. Thus, it seems to be
                  okay to "imagine" (and still
                  desire) higher initiations on
                  the "INNER" via the ruse of
                  needing a Mahanta for more
                  and more of these fake initiations
                  in order to expand consciousness
                  for more and more spiritual
                  progress.

                  Eckists are chasing their tails
                  via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                  rendition of circular logic and
                  thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                  and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                  in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                  is training Eckists to become
                  more and more Codependent
                  upon the Mahanta and their
                  desires and attachments?

                  Look at the ECK stories... they
                  all require the intercession and
                  help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                  via self-hypnosis and programming,
                  (attachment) are being taught
                  to call upon the Mahanta for
                  anything and everything... but
                  where is Soul and where is the
                  ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                  one mouthes certain "charged"
                  4th Plane words or thinks he/
                  she is "detached" doesn't make
                  it so!

                  What's interesting is that these
                  two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                  don't require money in order
                  to maintain (outer and Inner
                  initiations) a higher consciousness...
                  but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                  needed! This is what structured
                  (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                  order to control groups of people.
                  I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                  don't want to see the correlation
                  and connect-the-dots.

                  Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                  the-dots? It probably has to do
                  with their feelings of being "Superior
                  Normal" and the delusion that
                  gives them "all the answers" in
                  order to alleviate their doubts
                  and fears. The ego makes a better
                  servant than it does a master,
                  but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                  hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                  ego from Soul.

                  Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                  (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                  writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                  H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                  What has Klemp been teaching
                  his followers since he's been
                  in charge?

                  Prometheus

                  realbizarretarzs wrote:

                  So true. I really enjoyed your
                  experiment.

                  I used to do that sort of stuff
                  until it became more sad than
                  amusing.

                  Also, a while back, I forgot
                  to mention the books of
                  Alan Watts, starting with
                  "The Way of Zen" and
                  "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                  The second title, of course,
                  is a paradox, but one that
                  makes sense without having
                  to go too far into the book
                  to see what he is talking about.

                  One doesn't have to be necessarily
                  into Zen or even Buddhism to
                  understand where he was coming
                  from.

                  His books are very easy to read
                  and are somewhat humorous.

                  Interestingly, he obtained
                  a master's degree in theology
                  and "divinity" but went on to
                  write twenty to thirty books
                  on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                  philosophies, and the psychology
                  of religion, and the importance
                  of mysticism insofar as the
                  individual transcending man-
                  made religion.


                  whitemoby wrote:


                  Truth can never by systemized,
                  no matter how eloquently.

                  Moby

                  Rebazar Tarzs wrote:


                  In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                  after following instructions
                  to the letter, but not losing
                  his intuition, begins to question
                  everything, and comes to
                  see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                  favorite or not-so-favorite
                  community Utopia) as a kind
                  of ivory tower, oblivious to
                  real life, and thus, reality.

                  He begins to realize that,
                  after many years, and many
                  relationships, Castilia is a
                  self-protected society that
                  does little, if anything, for
                  the world outside its borders,
                  and is burderned by a hierarchy
                  of personalities and games
                  people play.

                  I won't reveal any more than
                  this, in case someone is
                  currently reading "Magister
                  Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                  but I will say this - throughout
                  the whole story, Bruce Willis
                  is dead.

                  What?!?

                  No, actually, the truth seeker,
                  Knecht (which, in German,
                  means servant and/or knight)
                  (or so the Germans would have
                  us believe) is, to the dumb-
                  foundment of his "superiors",
                  really looking for truth.

                  No substitutes.

                  I hope I didn't give away too
                  much, as the book is almost
                  600 pages long, but, actually,
                  I haven't, because there is
                  so much truth in the story
                  that everytime I re-read it,
                  I realize something new.

                  I know we used to say that
                  about certain ECK books
                  (before Harold) but the
                  stuff that Paul took from
                  others is timeless as well.

                  What was kind of amusing
                  is that when I read the book
                  the first time, Darwin was
                  the "Master."

                  One of the first main characters
                  in the story is the "Music Master."


                  prometheus wrote:

                  Here's a review from Amazon.com
                  of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                  "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                  It is no less than the highest
                  reason that an entire future
                  civilization exists. It is the
                  grand and ongoing synthesis
                  of all knowledge into a unified,
                  integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                  It is an attempt to forge a
                  holographic intellectual world
                  where all is interconnected and
                  reflected in every part. This is
                  a mission to weave the golden
                  thread of significance and meaning
                  through every part of a culture-
                  science and the arts and the
                  spiritual are all unified into a
                  system of concentric, interpenetrating
                  rings.

                  All this is primarily accomplished
                  by using the language of music
                  and mathematics as common
                  universal symbolism (the "glass
                  beads" are part of a symbolic
                  physical aid that was once used
                  for this purpose.)

                  It is no wonder that the book
                  places the first origins of the
                  game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                  and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                  that the League of Journeyers
                  to the East also figure prominently
                  in its development. To some
                  extent the Game has been the
                  goal of all sensitive and introspective
                  individuals and groups down
                  through the ages.

                  All of this stands in stark contrast
                  to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                  where all knowledge, all culture,
                  is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                  largely meaningless babble.

                  The crisis that develops from
                  this is that even if you accomplish
                  this grand synthesis in some isolated
                  ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                  contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                  It is necessary to reach out to the
                  entire society once it is achieved
                  in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                  attempts to enlighten the rest of
                  mankind instead of individually
                  passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                  society must be made whole and
                  sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                  This is the realization that comes
                  even to the Magister Ludi, the
                  Master of the Game.

                  For the game to be ultimately
                  meaningful we have to coach
                  everyone to eventually become
                  Masters."

                  **********************************

                  Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                  Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                  outflow principle) be accomplished without
                  the religious strings attached? Not by
                  Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                  to their membership donations or else
                  they can lose initiations!

                  Prometheus
                • Rebazar Tarzs
                  Hi there!   The intercession part is the part I really don t understand!   Because of Key To Secret Worlds and the previously published short articles
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi there!
                     
                    The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                     
                    Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                    short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                    my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                    idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                    point.
                     
                    I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's son,
                    but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in the margins
                    of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in order
                    to have any kind of relationship with Spirit.
                     
                    And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                    Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                     
                    How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                     
                    And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                     
                    It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                     
                    That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                    supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                    connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                    all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                     
                    And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                    throughout history.
                     
                    Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                     
                    I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                    say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                    psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                     
                    If things go well, it is because of Harold. If not, it is because
                    the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                     
                    Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                     
                    Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                     
                    Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                     
                    Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                    out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences", but fear of the
                    unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                    BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                     
                    They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                    Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                     
                    With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                    are in Eckankar.
                     
                    What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                    or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations"!
                     
                    What could be worse than that? 
                     
                    Or being "demoted" as a person in any way?
                     
                    They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                     
                    They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                    but it is psychological.
                     
                    Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                     
                    The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                     
                    But you knew that!
                     
                     
                     
                             
                     
                           

                    --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

                     
                    Hello All,
                    Thanks for sharing your
                    comments and the info
                    about these books!

                    As far as "transcending
                    religion" it seems that this
                    is what we thought we were
                    doing when we joined the
                    "path" of Eckankar way back
                    when.

                    Early on, Eckankar seemed
                    to have a certain mystique
                    about it. The reality, now,
                    is that it was never what we
                    imagined or desired. This
                    PT/HK consciousness is based
                    upon delusions, lies, and
                    manipulations frozen
                    in time as meaningless and
                    imagined experiences and
                    dreams via Klemp's over-
                    simplified and mind numbing
                    hypnotic message. This is
                    the "real" reason people fall
                    asleep during his talks! And,
                    there's No spiritual meat
                    (protein)!

                    The Eckankar message is
                    merely a redundancy and
                    regurgitation of empty 2nd
                    and 4th Plane thoughts and
                    words.

                    PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                    Westernized rewrite of the
                    Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                    once borrowed and plagiarized
                    (compiled) from Sant Mat
                    religions (etc.), and from
                    more knowledgeable/
                    enlightened people by
                    the trickster Twitchell.

                    HK's EK "path" has not only
                    become Christianized, but
                    has also been exposed as
                    just another "Feel Good"
                    religious sect that preaches
                    one thing and does another!
                    It's a Codependent scam!

                    Thus, the Klemps' egos
                    are feeling pretty good
                    right now and the "trickle-
                    down effect" is still sustaining
                    their EK followers/sheep/
                    chickens in the same ways
                    as other religions work their
                    magic on the numb, dumb,
                    fearful, and superstitious
                    masses.

                    Still, for Eckists who think
                    they can see beyond the
                    veil/void it's amazing to
                    see that they are quite
                    incapable of true change
                    and of discovering the
                    real path of TRUTH, and
                    of experiencing the art
                    of the obvious.

                    Truth has escaped these
                    Eckists and they will forever
                    remain a pawn of the KAL
                    and under Klemp's trance
                    of providing "sales service."

                    This, of course, benefits HK's
                    selfish motives, and, on the
                    other hand, it helps to give
                    Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                    This is why Klemp feels he
                    is doing no harm since it
                    provides of service for lost
                    Souls until they become advanced
                    enough to realize they don't
                    need a middleman.

                    However, the "catch" lies
                    within the promises made
                    and the innate desire of
                    soul to "Know" God and to
                    return Home again. Eckankar
                    manipulates this desire with
                    "initiations" that are turned
                    into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                    However, Not Desiring Initiations
                    (via a pure heart) is another
                    trap/test that has merely been
                    disguised while the "desire"
                    remains hidden from outer
                    sight. Thus, it seems to be
                    okay to "imagine" (and still
                    desire) higher initiations on
                    the "INNER" via the ruse of
                    needing a Mahanta for more
                    and more of these fake initiations
                    in order to expand consciousness
                    for more and more spiritual
                    progress.

                    Eckists are chasing their tails
                    via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                    rendition of circular logic and
                    thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                    and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                    in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                    is training Eckists to become
                    more and more Codependent
                    upon the Mahanta and their
                    desires and attachments?

                    Look at the ECK stories... they
                    all require the intercession and
                    help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                    via self-hypnosis and programming,
                    (attachment) are being taught
                    to call upon the Mahanta for
                    anything and everything.. . but
                    where is Soul and where is the
                    ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                    one mouthes certain "charged"
                    4th Plane words or thinks he/
                    she is "detached" doesn't make
                    it so!

                    What's interesting is that these
                    two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                    don't require money in order
                    to maintain (outer and Inner
                    initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                    but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                    needed! This is what structured
                    (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                    order to control groups of people.
                    I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                    don't want to see the correlation
                    and connect-the- dots.

                    Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                    the-dots? It probably has to do
                    with their feelings of being "Superior
                    Normal" and the delusion that
                    gives them "all the answers" in
                    order to alleviate their doubts
                    and fears. The ego makes a better
                    servant than it does a master,
                    but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                    hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                    ego from Soul.

                    Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                    (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                    writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                    H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                    What has Klemp been teaching
                    his followers since he's been
                    in charge?

                    Prometheus

                    realbizarretarzs wrote:

                    So true. I really enjoyed your
                    experiment.

                    I used to do that sort of stuff
                    until it became more sad than
                    amusing.

                    Also, a while back, I forgot
                    to mention the books of
                    Alan Watts, starting with
                    "The Way of Zen" and
                    "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                    The second title, of course,
                    is a paradox, but one that
                    makes sense without having
                    to go too far into the book
                    to see what he is talking about.

                    One doesn't have to be necessarily
                    into Zen or even Buddhism to
                    understand where he was coming
                    from.

                    His books are very easy to read
                    and are somewhat humorous.

                    Interestingly, he obtained
                    a master's degree in theology
                    and "divinity" but went on to
                    write twenty to thirty books
                    on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                    philosophies, and the psychology
                    of religion, and the importance
                    of mysticism insofar as the
                    individual transcending man-
                    made religion.

                    whitemoby wrote:

                    Truth can never by systemized,
                    no matter how eloquently.

                    Moby

                    Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                    In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                    after following instructions
                    to the letter, but not losing
                    his intuition, begins to question
                    everything, and comes to
                    see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                    favorite or not-so-favorite
                    community Utopia) as a kind
                    of ivory tower, oblivious to
                    real life, and thus, reality.

                    He begins to realize that,
                    after many years, and many
                    relationships, Castilia is a
                    self-protected society that
                    does little, if anything, for
                    the world outside its borders,
                    and is burderned by a hierarchy
                    of personalities and games
                    people play.

                    I won't reveal any more than
                    this, in case someone is
                    currently reading "Magister
                    Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                    but I will say this - throughout
                    the whole story, Bruce Willis
                    is dead.

                    What?!?

                    No, actually, the truth seeker,
                    Knecht (which, in German,
                    means servant and/or knight)
                    (or so the Germans would have
                    us believe) is, to the dumb-
                    foundment of his "superiors",
                    really looking for truth.

                    No substitutes.

                    I hope I didn't give away too
                    much, as the book is almost
                    600 pages long, but, actually,
                    I haven't, because there is
                    so much truth in the story
                    that everytime I re-read it,
                    I realize something new.

                    I know we used to say that
                    about certain ECK books
                    (before Harold) but the
                    stuff that Paul took from
                    others is timeless as well.

                    What was kind of amusing
                    is that when I read the book
                    the first time, Darwin was
                    the "Master."

                    One of the first main characters
                    in the story is the "Music Master."


                    prometheus wrote:

                    Here's a review from Amazon.com
                    of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                    "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                    It is no less than the highest
                    reason that an entire future
                    civilization exists. It is the
                    grand and ongoing synthesis
                    of all knowledge into a unified,
                    integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                    It is an attempt to forge a
                    holographic intellectual world
                    where all is interconnected and
                    reflected in every part. This is
                    a mission to weave the golden
                    thread of significance and meaning
                    through every part of a culture-
                    science and the arts and the
                    spiritual are all unified into a
                    system of concentric, interpenetrating
                    rings.

                    All this is primarily accomplished
                    by using the language of music
                    and mathematics as common
                    universal symbolism (the "glass
                    beads" are part of a symbolic
                    physical aid that was once used
                    for this purpose.)

                    It is no wonder that the book
                    places the first origins of the
                    game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                    and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                    that the League of Journeyers
                    to the East also figure prominently
                    in its development. To some
                    extent the Game has been the
                    goal of all sensitive and introspective
                    individuals and groups down
                    through the ages.

                    All of this stands in stark contrast
                    to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                    where all knowledge, all culture,
                    is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                    largely meaningless babble.

                    The crisis that develops from
                    this is that even if you accomplish
                    this grand synthesis in some isolated
                    ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                    contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                    It is necessary to reach out to the
                    entire society once it is achieved
                    in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                    attempts to enlighten the rest of
                    mankind instead of individually
                    passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                    society must be made whole and
                    sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                    This is the realization that comes
                    even to the Magister Ludi, the
                    Master of the Game.

                    For the game to be ultimately
                    meaningful we have to coach
                    everyone to eventually become
                    Masters."

                    ************ ********* ********* ****

                    Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                    Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                    outflow principle) be accomplished without
                    the religious strings attached? Not by
                    Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                    to their membership donations or else
                    they can lose initiations!

                    Prometheus


                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, In the Catholic Church there are all types within the spiritual hierarchy that can intercede with God on the behalf of man. Twitchell and Klemp
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello All,
                      In the Catholic Church there
                      are all types within the "spiritual
                      hierarchy" that can intercede
                      with God on the behalf of man.
                      Twitchell and Klemp merely
                      copied this as well and added
                      EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                      http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6146

                      The thing about doing research
                      on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                      version (with "c" added) along
                      with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                      more than 50 years ago!

                      This No Contact is strange
                      (not really) since Rebazar has
                      been around for 500 years, in
                      the same physical body, and
                      even sailed with Columbus
                      (according to Klemp)!

                      Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                      mentioning REBAZAR (the
                      Torchbearer) by name nor
                      is there anything written by
                      RT (in his own hand) for 500
                      years!

                      And, since Rebazar does
                      (supposedly) have a 500
                      year old physical body why
                      didn't he show up before and
                      after Twit died versus Gail
                      having to use a dream from
                      Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?

                      Why hasn't RT shown up at
                      an EK Seminar in all of these
                      years and given a talk? Is he
                      too good for that?

                      If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                      isn't too good or too "high"
                      to give a Seminar talk why
                      can't Rebazar appear and
                      give one too? He is a physical
                      being, still! Thus, RT should
                      be expected to show up every
                      now and then. But... he hasn't
                      ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                      dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                      it because he pissed HK off by
                      never showing up at an EK Seminar!

                      Prometheus

                      realbizarretarzs wrote:

                      Hi there!

                      The intercession part is the
                      part I really don't understand!

                      Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                      and the previously published short
                      articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                      Free," I was at odds with my
                      Presbyterian minister while taking
                      confirmation classes (not my idea,
                      of course, but my parents' idea of
                      a good time) over this very point.

                      I got the highest grades on everything,
                      even higher than the minister's son,
                      but the minister was always trying
                      to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                      the margins of my essays, that
                      intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                      necessary in order to have any kind
                      of relationship with Spirit.

                      And I agree with you about everything
                      else you just said. Was Paul paying
                      Rebazar $160.00 a year?

                      How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

                      And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

                      It's funny that you mention connecting
                      the dots.

                      That is when I began to discover the
                      books we weren't supposed to know
                      about. In the nineties I was trying to
                      connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                      of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                      least 5,000 years B.C.

                      And by doing so, I was also researching
                      "EK" and "HU" throughout history.

                      Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

                      I think it is just a big psychological
                      circus that takes place, say, for an
                      example, at a major seminar. People
                      get all psychologically open to auto-
                      suggestion.

                      If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                      If not, it is because the chela has not
                      been doing his or her "homework."

                      Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

                      Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

                      Harold can dish it out both ways.
                      And eat the cake himself.

                      Again, just like with most religions,
                      people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                      fear, not just fear of the "consequences",
                      but fear of the unknown - something
                      they are supposed to be conquering
                      BECAUSE of Eckankar!

                      They can't because they are clinging
                      to the known world. Their little world
                      of "Super Normal" people.

                      With alot of these people, most or
                      all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.

                      What would they think? And the
                      idea of letting others "below" or
                      "beneath" them passing them up
                      in "initiations"!

                      What could be worse than that?

                      Or being "demoted" as a person
                      in any way?

                      They give all their power to the
                      heirarchy.

                      They are powerless to help themselves.
                      Not really, of course, but it is psychological.

                      Whatever happened to power,
                      wisdom and freedom?

                      The answer, my friend, is blowing
                      in the wind.

                      But you knew that!



                      prometheus wrote:

                      Hello All,
                      Thanks for sharing your
                      comments and the info
                      about these books!

                      As far as "transcending
                      religion" it seems that this
                      is what we thought we were
                      doing when we joined the
                      "path" of Eckankar way back
                      when.

                      Early on, Eckankar seemed
                      to have a certain mystique
                      about it. The reality, now,
                      is that it was never what we
                      imagined or desired. This
                      PT/HK consciousness is based
                      upon delusions, lies, and
                      manipulations frozen
                      in time as meaningless and
                      imagined experiences and
                      dreams via Klemp's over-
                      simplified and mind numbing
                      hypnotic message. This is
                      the "real" reason people fall
                      asleep during his talks! And,
                      there's No spiritual meat
                      (protein)!

                      The Eckankar message is
                      merely a redundancy and
                      regurgitation of empty 2nd
                      and 4th Plane thoughts and
                      words.

                      PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                      Westernized rewrite of the
                      Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                      once borrowed and plagiarized
                      (compiled) from Sant Mat
                      religions (etc.), and from
                      more knowledgeable/
                      enlightened people by
                      the trickster Twitchell.

                      HK's EK "path" has not only
                      become Christianized, but
                      has also been exposed as
                      just another "Feel Good"
                      religious sect that preaches
                      one thing and does another!
                      It's a Codependent scam!

                      Thus, the Klemps' egos
                      are feeling pretty good
                      right now and the "trickle-
                      down effect" is still sustaining
                      their EK followers/sheep/
                      chickens in the same ways
                      as other religions work their
                      magic on the numb, dumb,
                      fearful, and superstitious
                      masses.

                      Still, for Eckists who think
                      they can see beyond the
                      veil/void it's amazing to
                      see that they are quite
                      incapable of true change
                      and of discovering the
                      real path of TRUTH, and
                      of experiencing the art
                      of the obvious.

                      Truth has escaped these
                      Eckists and they will forever
                      remain a pawn of the KAL
                      and under Klemp's trance
                      of providing "sales service."

                      This, of course, benefits HK's
                      selfish motives, and, on the
                      other hand, it helps to give
                      Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                      This is why Klemp feels he
                      is doing no harm since it
                      provides of service for lost
                      Souls until they become advanced
                      enough to realize they don't
                      need a middleman.

                      However, the "catch" lies
                      within the promises made
                      and the innate desire of
                      soul to "Know" God and to
                      return Home again. Eckankar
                      manipulates this desire with
                      "initiations" that are turned
                      into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                      However, Not Desiring Initiations
                      (via a pure heart) is another
                      trap/test that has merely been
                      disguised while the "desire"
                      remains hidden from outer
                      sight. Thus, it seems to be
                      okay to "imagine" (and still
                      desire) higher initiations on
                      the "INNER" via the ruse of
                      needing a Mahanta for more
                      and more of these fake initiations
                      in order to expand consciousness
                      for more and more spiritual
                      progress.

                      Eckists are chasing their tails
                      via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                      rendition of circular logic and
                      thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                      and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                      in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                      is training Eckists to become
                      more and more Codependent
                      upon the Mahanta and their
                      desires and attachments?

                      Look at the ECK stories... they
                      all require the intercession and
                      help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                      via self-hypnosis and programming,
                      (attachment) are being taught
                      to call upon the Mahanta for
                      anything and everything.. . but
                      where is Soul and where is the
                      ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                      one mouthes certain "charged"
                      4th Plane words or thinks he/
                      she is "detached" doesn't make
                      it so!

                      What's interesting is that these
                      two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                      don't require money in order
                      to maintain (outer and Inner
                      initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                      but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                      needed! This is what structured
                      (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                      order to control groups of people.
                      I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                      don't want to see the correlation
                      and connect-the- dots.

                      Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                      the-dots? It probably has to do
                      with their feelings of being "Superior
                      Normal" and the delusion that
                      gives them "all the answers" in
                      order to alleviate their doubts
                      and fears. The ego makes a better
                      servant than it does a master,
                      but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                      hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                      ego from Soul.

                      Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                      (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                      writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                      H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                      What has Klemp been teaching
                      his followers since he's been
                      in charge?

                      Prometheus

                      realbizarretarzs wrote:

                      So true. I really enjoyed your
                      experiment.

                      I used to do that sort of stuff
                      until it became more sad than
                      amusing.

                      Also, a while back, I forgot
                      to mention the books of
                      Alan Watts, starting with
                      "The Way of Zen" and
                      "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                      The second title, of course,
                      is a paradox, but one that
                      makes sense without having
                      to go too far into the book
                      to see what he is talking about.

                      One doesn't have to be necessarily
                      into Zen or even Buddhism to
                      understand where he was coming
                      from.

                      His books are very easy to read
                      and are somewhat humorous.

                      Interestingly, he obtained
                      a master's degree in theology
                      and "divinity" but went on to
                      write twenty to thirty books
                      on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                      philosophies, and the psychology
                      of religion, and the importance
                      of mysticism insofar as the
                      individual transcending man-
                      made religion.

                      whitemoby wrote:

                      Truth can never by systemized,
                      no matter how eloquently.

                      Moby

                      Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                      In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                      after following instructions
                      to the letter, but not losing
                      his intuition, begins to question
                      everything, and comes to
                      see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                      favorite or not-so-favorite
                      community Utopia) as a kind
                      of ivory tower, oblivious to
                      real life, and thus, reality.

                      He begins to realize that,
                      after many years, and many
                      relationships, Castilia is a
                      self-protected society that
                      does little, if anything, for
                      the world outside its borders,
                      and is burderned by a hierarchy
                      of personalities and games
                      people play.

                      I won't reveal any more than
                      this, in case someone is
                      currently reading "Magister
                      Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                      but I will say this - throughout
                      the whole story, Bruce Willis
                      is dead.

                      What?!?

                      No, actually, the truth seeker,
                      Knecht (which, in German,
                      means servant and/or knight)
                      (or so the Germans would have
                      us believe) is, to the dumb-
                      foundment of his "superiors",
                      really looking for truth.

                      No substitutes.

                      I hope I didn't give away too
                      much, as the book is almost
                      600 pages long, but, actually,
                      I haven't, because there is
                      so much truth in the story
                      that everytime I re-read it,
                      I realize something new.

                      I know we used to say that
                      about certain ECK books
                      (before Harold) but the
                      stuff that Paul took from
                      others is timeless as well.

                      What was kind of amusing
                      is that when I read the book
                      the first time, Darwin was
                      the "Master."

                      One of the first main characters
                      in the story is the "Music Master."


                      prometheus wrote:

                      Here's a review from Amazon.com
                      of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                      "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                      It is no less than the highest
                      reason that an entire future
                      civilization exists. It is the
                      grand and ongoing synthesis
                      of all knowledge into a unified,
                      integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                      It is an attempt to forge a
                      holographic intellectual world
                      where all is interconnected and
                      reflected in every part. This is
                      a mission to weave the golden
                      thread of significance and meaning
                      through every part of a culture-
                      science and the arts and the
                      spiritual are all unified into a
                      system of concentric, interpenetrating
                      rings.

                      All this is primarily accomplished
                      by using the language of music
                      and mathematics as common
                      universal symbolism (the "glass
                      beads" are part of a symbolic
                      physical aid that was once used
                      for this purpose.)

                      It is no wonder that the book
                      places the first origins of the
                      game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                      and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                      that the League of Journeyers
                      to the East also figure prominently
                      in its development. To some
                      extent the Game has been the
                      goal of all sensitive and introspective
                      individuals and groups down
                      through the ages.

                      All of this stands in stark contrast
                      to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                      where all knowledge, all culture,
                      is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                      largely meaningless babble.

                      The crisis that develops from
                      this is that even if you accomplish
                      this grand synthesis in some isolated
                      ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                      contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                      It is necessary to reach out to the
                      entire society once it is achieved
                      in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                      attempts to enlighten the rest of
                      mankind instead of individually
                      passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                      society must be made whole and
                      sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                      This is the realization that comes
                      even to the Magister Ludi, the
                      Master of the Game.

                      For the game to be ultimately
                      meaningful we have to coach
                      everyone to eventually become
                      Masters."

                      **********************************

                      Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                      Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                      outflow principle) be accomplished without
                      the religious strings attached? Not by
                      Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                      to their membership donations or else
                      they can lose initiations!

                      Prometheus
                    • Rebazar Tarzs
                      You re right. Maybe Rebazar died and Harold was afraid to talk about it.   After all, he still hasn t mentioned the death of the 972nd Mahanta!          
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        You're right. Maybe Rebazar died and Harold was afraid to talk about it.
                         
                        After all, he still hasn't mentioned the death of the 972nd Mahanta!
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         


                        --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 9:42 PM

                         
                        Hello All,
                        In the Catholic Church there
                        are all types within the "spiritual
                        hierarchy" that can intercede
                        with God on the behalf of man.
                        Twitchell and Klemp merely
                        copied this as well and added
                        EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                        http://www.catholic .org/encyclopedi a/view.php? id=6146

                        The thing about doing research
                        on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                        version (with "c" added) along
                        with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                        more than 50 years ago!

                        This No Contact is strange
                        (not really) since Rebazar has
                        been around for 500 years, in
                        the same physical body, and
                        even sailed with Columbus
                        (according to Klemp)!

                        Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                        mentioning REBAZAR (the
                        Torchbearer) by name nor
                        is there anything written by
                        RT (in his own hand) for 500
                        years!

                        And, since Rebazar does
                        (supposedly) have a 500
                        year old physical body why
                        didn't he show up before and
                        after Twit died versus Gail
                        having to use a dream from
                        Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?

                        Why hasn't RT shown up at
                        an EK Seminar in all of these
                        years and given a talk? Is he
                        too good for that?

                        If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                        isn't too good or too "high"
                        to give a Seminar talk why
                        can't Rebazar appear and
                        give one too? He is a physical
                        being, still! Thus, RT should
                        be expected to show up every
                        now and then. But... he hasn't
                        ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                        dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                        it because he pissed HK off by
                        never showing up at an EK Seminar!

                        Prometheus

                        realbizarretarzs wrote:

                        Hi there!

                        The intercession part is the
                        part I really don't understand!

                        Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                        and the previously published short
                        articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                        Free," I was at odds with my
                        Presbyterian minister while taking
                        confirmation classes (not my idea,
                        of course, but my parents' idea of
                        a good time) over this very point.

                        I got the highest grades on everything,
                        even higher than the minister's son,
                        but the minister was always trying
                        to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                        the margins of my essays, that
                        intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                        necessary in order to have any kind
                        of relationship with Spirit.

                        And I agree with you about everything
                        else you just said. Was Paul paying
                        Rebazar $160.00 a year?

                        How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

                        And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

                        It's funny that you mention connecting
                        the dots.

                        That is when I began to discover the
                        books we weren't supposed to know
                        about. In the nineties I was trying to
                        connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                        of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                        least 5,000 years B.C.

                        And by doing so, I was also researching
                        "EK" and "HU" throughout history.

                        Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

                        I think it is just a big psychological
                        circus that takes place, say, for an
                        example, at a major seminar. People
                        get all psychologically open to auto-
                        suggestion.

                        If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                        If not, it is because the chela has not
                        been doing his or her "homework."

                        Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

                        Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

                        Harold can dish it out both ways.
                        And eat the cake himself.

                        Again, just like with most religions,
                        people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                        fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                        but fear of the unknown - something
                        they are supposed to be conquering
                        BECAUSE of Eckankar!

                        They can't because they are clinging
                        to the known world. Their little world
                        of "Super Normal" people.

                        With alot of these people, most or
                        all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.

                        What would they think? And the
                        idea of letting others "below" or
                        "beneath" them passing them up
                        in "initiations" !

                        What could be worse than that?

                        Or being "demoted" as a person
                        in any way?

                        They give all their power to the
                        heirarchy.

                        They are powerless to help themselves.
                        Not really, of course, but it is psychological.

                        Whatever happened to power,
                        wisdom and freedom?

                        The answer, my friend, is blowing
                        in the wind.

                        But you knew that!



                        prometheus wrote:

                        Hello All,
                        Thanks for sharing your
                        comments and the info
                        about these books!

                        As far as "transcending
                        religion" it seems that this
                        is what we thought we were
                        doing when we joined the
                        "path" of Eckankar way back
                        when.

                        Early on, Eckankar seemed
                        to have a certain mystique
                        about it. The reality, now,
                        is that it was never what we
                        imagined or desired. This
                        PT/HK consciousness is based
                        upon delusions, lies, and
                        manipulations frozen
                        in time as meaningless and
                        imagined experiences and
                        dreams via Klemp's over-
                        simplified and mind numbing
                        hypnotic message. This is
                        the "real" reason people fall
                        asleep during his talks! And,
                        there's No spiritual meat
                        (protein)!

                        The Eckankar message is
                        merely a redundancy and
                        regurgitation of empty 2nd
                        and 4th Plane thoughts and
                        words.

                        PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                        Westernized rewrite of the
                        Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                        once borrowed and plagiarized
                        (compiled) from Sant Mat
                        religions (etc.), and from
                        more knowledgeable/
                        enlightened people by
                        the trickster Twitchell.

                        HK's EK "path" has not only
                        become Christianized, but
                        has also been exposed as
                        just another "Feel Good"
                        religious sect that preaches
                        one thing and does another!
                        It's a Codependent scam!

                        Thus, the Klemps' egos
                        are feeling pretty good
                        right now and the "trickle-
                        down effect" is still sustaining
                        their EK followers/sheep/
                        chickens in the same ways
                        as other religions work their
                        magic on the numb, dumb,
                        fearful, and superstitious
                        masses.

                        Still, for Eckists who think
                        they can see beyond the
                        veil/void it's amazing to
                        see that they are quite
                        incapable of true change
                        and of discovering the
                        real path of TRUTH, and
                        of experiencing the art
                        of the obvious.

                        Truth has escaped these
                        Eckists and they will forever
                        remain a pawn of the KAL
                        and under Klemp's trance
                        of providing "sales service."

                        This, of course, benefits HK's
                        selfish motives, and, on the
                        other hand, it helps to give
                        Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                        This is why Klemp feels he
                        is doing no harm since it
                        provides of service for lost
                        Souls until they become advanced
                        enough to realize they don't
                        need a middleman.

                        However, the "catch" lies
                        within the promises made
                        and the innate desire of
                        soul to "Know" God and to
                        return Home again. Eckankar
                        manipulates this desire with
                        "initiations" that are turned
                        into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                        However, Not Desiring Initiations
                        (via a pure heart) is another
                        trap/test that has merely been
                        disguised while the "desire"
                        remains hidden from outer
                        sight. Thus, it seems to be
                        okay to "imagine" (and still
                        desire) higher initiations on
                        the "INNER" via the ruse of
                        needing a Mahanta for more
                        and more of these fake initiations
                        in order to expand consciousness
                        for more and more spiritual
                        progress.

                        Eckists are chasing their tails
                        via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                        rendition of circular logic and
                        thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                        and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                        in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                        is training Eckists to become
                        more and more Codependent
                        upon the Mahanta and their
                        desires and attachments?

                        Look at the ECK stories... they
                        all require the intercession and
                        help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                        via self-hypnosis and programming,
                        (attachment) are being taught
                        to call upon the Mahanta for
                        anything and everything.. . but
                        where is Soul and where is the
                        ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                        one mouthes certain "charged"
                        4th Plane words or thinks he/
                        she is "detached" doesn't make
                        it so!

                        What's interesting is that these
                        two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                        don't require money in order
                        to maintain (outer and Inner
                        initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                        but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                        needed! This is what structured
                        (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                        order to control groups of people.
                        I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                        don't want to see the correlation
                        and connect-the- dots.

                        Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                        the-dots? It probably has to do
                        with their feelings of being "Superior
                        Normal" and the delusion that
                        gives them "all the answers" in
                        order to alleviate their doubts
                        and fears. The ego makes a better
                        servant than it does a master,
                        but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                        hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                        ego from Soul.

                        Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                        (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                        writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                        H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                        What has Klemp been teaching
                        his followers since he's been
                        in charge?

                        Prometheus

                        realbizarretarzs wrote:

                        So true. I really enjoyed your
                        experiment.

                        I used to do that sort of stuff
                        until it became more sad than
                        amusing.

                        Also, a while back, I forgot
                        to mention the books of
                        Alan Watts, starting with
                        "The Way of Zen" and
                        "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                        The second title, of course,
                        is a paradox, but one that
                        makes sense without having
                        to go too far into the book
                        to see what he is talking about.

                        One doesn't have to be necessarily
                        into Zen or even Buddhism to
                        understand where he was coming
                        from.

                        His books are very easy to read
                        and are somewhat humorous.

                        Interestingly, he obtained
                        a master's degree in theology
                        and "divinity" but went on to
                        write twenty to thirty books
                        on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                        philosophies, and the psychology
                        of religion, and the importance
                        of mysticism insofar as the
                        individual transcending man-
                        made religion.

                        whitemoby wrote:

                        Truth can never by systemized,
                        no matter how eloquently.

                        Moby

                        Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                        In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                        after following instructions
                        to the letter, but not losing
                        his intuition, begins to question
                        everything, and comes to
                        see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                        favorite or not-so-favorite
                        community Utopia) as a kind
                        of ivory tower, oblivious to
                        real life, and thus, reality.

                        He begins to realize that,
                        after many years, and many
                        relationships, Castilia is a
                        self-protected society that
                        does little, if anything, for
                        the world outside its borders,
                        and is burderned by a hierarchy
                        of personalities and games
                        people play.

                        I won't reveal any more than
                        this, in case someone is
                        currently reading "Magister
                        Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                        but I will say this - throughout
                        the whole story, Bruce Willis
                        is dead.

                        What?!?

                        No, actually, the truth seeker,
                        Knecht (which, in German,
                        means servant and/or knight)
                        (or so the Germans would have
                        us believe) is, to the dumb-
                        foundment of his "superiors",
                        really looking for truth.

                        No substitutes.

                        I hope I didn't give away too
                        much, as the book is almost
                        600 pages long, but, actually,
                        I haven't, because there is
                        so much truth in the story
                        that everytime I re-read it,
                        I realize something new.

                        I know we used to say that
                        about certain ECK books
                        (before Harold) but the
                        stuff that Paul took from
                        others is timeless as well.

                        What was kind of amusing
                        is that when I read the book
                        the first time, Darwin was
                        the "Master."

                        One of the first main characters
                        in the story is the "Music Master."

                        prometheus wrote:

                        Here's a review from Amazon.com
                        of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                        "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                        It is no less than the highest
                        reason that an entire future
                        civilization exists. It is the
                        grand and ongoing synthesis
                        of all knowledge into a unified,
                        integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                        It is an attempt to forge a
                        holographic intellectual world
                        where all is interconnected and
                        reflected in every part. This is
                        a mission to weave the golden
                        thread of significance and meaning
                        through every part of a culture-
                        science and the arts and the
                        spiritual are all unified into a
                        system of concentric, interpenetrating
                        rings.

                        All this is primarily accomplished
                        by using the language of music
                        and mathematics as common
                        universal symbolism (the "glass
                        beads" are part of a symbolic
                        physical aid that was once used
                        for this purpose.)

                        It is no wonder that the book
                        places the first origins of the
                        game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                        and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                        that the League of Journeyers
                        to the East also figure prominently
                        in its development. To some
                        extent the Game has been the
                        goal of all sensitive and introspective
                        individuals and groups down
                        through the ages.

                        All of this stands in stark contrast
                        to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                        where all knowledge, all culture,
                        is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                        largely meaningless babble.

                        The crisis that develops from
                        this is that even if you accomplish
                        this grand synthesis in some isolated
                        ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                        contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                        It is necessary to reach out to the
                        entire society once it is achieved
                        in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                        attempts to enlighten the rest of
                        mankind instead of individually
                        passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                        society must be made whole and
                        sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                        This is the realization that comes
                        even to the Magister Ludi, the
                        Master of the Game.

                        For the game to be ultimately
                        meaningful we have to coach
                        everyone to eventually become
                        Masters."

                        ************ ********* ********* ****

                        Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                        Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                        outflow principle) be accomplished without
                        the religious strings attached? Not by
                        Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                        to their membership donations or else
                        they can lose initiations!

                        Prometheus


                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello All, Do you think Klemp will mention that Darwin died at this up coming Seminar? If Rebazar died, as well, maybe that will be the excuse to make Joan an
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello All,
                          Do you think Klemp will
                          mention that Darwin died
                          at this up coming Seminar?

                          If Rebazar died, as well,
                          maybe that will be the
                          excuse to make Joan an
                          EK Master... to take
                          Rebazar's place! Or,
                          would she finally be
                          taking Darwin's place?

                          BTW - I found a new way
                          that Klemp and Company
                          can make more money.

                          http://www.saintsforsinners.com/medalsgallery.html

                          This site is "Saints for Sinners"
                          where people can buy a medallion
                          with their favorite Saint painted
                          upon it. All Eckankar has to do
                          is substitute the EK Masters for
                          the Saints... like Twitchell did!
                          Anyway, I'm sure that every Eckist
                          would buy a Rebazar Medallion
                          for whatever the cost!

                          Prometheus


                          realbizarretarzs wrote:

                          You're right. Maybe Rebazar
                          died and Harold was afraid
                          to talk about it.

                          After all, he still hasn't mentioned
                          the death of the 972nd Mahanta!


                          prometheus wrote:

                          > Hello All,
                          > In the Catholic Church there
                          > are all types within the "spiritual
                          > hierarchy" that can intercede
                          > with God on the behalf of man.
                          > Twitchell and Klemp merely
                          > copied this as well and added
                          > EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                          http://www.catholic .org/encyclopedi a/view.php? id=6146

                          > The thing about doing research
                          > on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                          > version (with "c" added) along
                          > with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                          > more than 50 years ago!
                          >
                          > This No Contact is strange
                          > (not really) since Rebazar has
                          > been around for 500 years, in
                          > the same physical body, and
                          > even sailed with Columbus
                          > (according to Klemp)!
                          >
                          > Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                          > mentioning REBAZAR (the
                          > Torchbearer) by name nor
                          > is there anything written by
                          > RT (in his own hand) for 500
                          > years!
                          >
                          > And, since Rebazar does
                          > (supposedly) have a 500
                          > year old physical body why
                          > didn't he show up before and
                          > after Twit died versus Gail
                          > having to use a dream from
                          > Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?
                          >
                          > Why hasn't RT shown up at
                          > an EK Seminar in all of these
                          > years and given a talk? Is he
                          > too good for that?
                          >
                          > If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                          > isn't too good or too "high"
                          > to give a Seminar talk why
                          > can't Rebazar appear and
                          > give one too? He is a physical
                          > being, still! Thus, RT should
                          > be expected to show up every
                          > now and then. But... he hasn't
                          > ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                          > dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                          > it because he pissed HK off by
                          > never showing up at an EK Seminar!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi there!
                          >
                          > The intercession part is the
                          > part I really don't understand!
                          >
                          > Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                          > and the previously published short
                          > articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                          > Free," I was at odds with my
                          > Presbyterian minister while taking
                          > confirmation classes (not my idea,
                          > of course, but my parents' idea of
                          > a good time) over this very point.
                          >
                          > I got the highest grades on everything,
                          > even higher than the minister's son,
                          > but the minister was always trying
                          > to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                          > the margins of my essays, that
                          > intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                          > necessary in order to have any kind
                          > of relationship with Spirit.
                          >
                          > And I agree with you about everything
                          > else you just said. Was Paul paying
                          > Rebazar $160.00 a year?
                          >
                          > How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                          >
                          > And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                          >
                          > It's funny that you mention connecting
                          > the dots.
                          >
                          > That is when I began to discover the
                          > books we weren't supposed to know
                          > about. In the nineties I was trying to
                          > connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                          > of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                          > least 5,000 years B.C.
                          >
                          > And by doing so, I was also researching
                          > "EK" and "HU" throughout history.
                          >
                          > Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                          >
                          > I think it is just a big psychological
                          > circus that takes place, say, for an
                          > example, at a major seminar. People
                          > get all psychologically open to auto-
                          > suggestion.
                          >
                          > If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                          > If not, it is because the chela has not
                          > been doing his or her "homework."
                          >
                          > Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                          >
                          > Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                          >
                          > Harold can dish it out both ways.
                          > And eat the cake himself.
                          >
                          > Again, just like with most religions,
                          > people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                          > fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                          > but fear of the unknown - something
                          > they are supposed to be conquering
                          > BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                          >
                          > They can't because they are clinging
                          > to the known world. Their little world
                          > of "Super Normal" people.
                          >
                          > With alot of these people, most or
                          > all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.
                          >
                          > What would they think? And the
                          > idea of letting others "below" or
                          > "beneath" them passing them up
                          > in "initiations" !
                          >
                          > What could be worse than that?
                          >
                          > Or being "demoted" as a person
                          > in any way?
                          >
                          > They give all their power to the
                          > heirarchy.
                          >
                          > They are powerless to help themselves.
                          > Not really, of course, but it is psychological.
                          >
                          > Whatever happened to power,
                          > wisdom and freedom?
                          >
                          > The answer, my friend, is blowing
                          > in the wind.
                          >
                          > But you knew that!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          > Thanks for sharing your
                          > comments and the info
                          > about these books!
                          >
                          > As far as "transcending
                          > religion" it seems that this
                          > is what we thought we were
                          > doing when we joined the
                          > "path" of Eckankar way back
                          > when.
                          >
                          > Early on, Eckankar seemed
                          > to have a certain mystique
                          > about it. The reality, now,
                          > is that it was never what we
                          > imagined or desired. This
                          > PT/HK consciousness is based
                          > upon delusions, lies, and
                          > manipulations frozen
                          > in time as meaningless and
                          > imagined experiences and
                          > dreams via Klemp's over-
                          > simplified and mind numbing
                          > hypnotic message. This is
                          > the "real" reason people fall
                          > asleep during his talks! And,
                          > there's No spiritual meat
                          > (protein)!
                          >
                          > The Eckankar message is
                          > merely a redundancy and
                          > regurgitation of empty 2nd
                          > and 4th Plane thoughts and
                          > words.
                          >
                          > PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                          > Westernized rewrite of the
                          > Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                          > once borrowed and plagiarized
                          > (compiled) from Sant Mat
                          > religions (etc.), and from
                          > more knowledgeable/
                          > enlightened people by
                          > the trickster Twitchell.
                          >
                          > HK's EK "path" has not only
                          > become Christianized, but
                          > has also been exposed as
                          > just another "Feel Good"
                          > religious sect that preaches
                          > one thing and does another!
                          > It's a Codependent scam!
                          >
                          > Thus, the Klemps' egos
                          > are feeling pretty good
                          > right now and the "trickle-
                          > down effect" is still sustaining
                          > their EK followers/sheep/
                          > chickens in the same ways
                          > as other religions work their
                          > magic on the numb, dumb,
                          > fearful, and superstitious
                          > masses.
                          >
                          > Still, for Eckists who think
                          > they can see beyond the
                          > veil/void it's amazing to
                          > see that they are quite
                          > incapable of true change
                          > and of discovering the
                          > real path of TRUTH, and
                          > of experiencing the art
                          > of the obvious.
                          >
                          > Truth has escaped these
                          > Eckists and they will forever
                          > remain a pawn of the KAL
                          > and under Klemp's trance
                          > of providing "sales service."
                          >
                          > This, of course, benefits HK's
                          > selfish motives, and, on the
                          > other hand, it helps to give
                          > Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                          > This is why Klemp feels he
                          > is doing no harm since it
                          > provides of service for lost
                          > Souls until they become advanced
                          > enough to realize they don't
                          > need a middleman.
                          >
                          > However, the "catch" lies
                          > within the promises made
                          > and the innate desire of
                          > soul to "Know" God and to
                          > return Home again. Eckankar
                          > manipulates this desire with
                          > "initiations" that are turned
                          > into a KAL "Trap/Test."
                          >
                          > However, Not Desiring Initiations
                          > (via a pure heart) is another
                          > trap/test that has merely been
                          > disguised while the "desire"
                          > remains hidden from outer
                          > sight. Thus, it seems to be
                          > okay to "imagine" (and still
                          > desire) higher initiations on
                          > the "INNER" via the ruse of
                          > needing a Mahanta for more
                          > and more of these fake initiations
                          > in order to expand consciousness
                          > for more and more spiritual
                          > progress.
                          >
                          > Eckists are chasing their tails
                          > via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                          > rendition of circular logic and
                          > thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                          > and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                          > in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                          > is training Eckists to become
                          > more and more Codependent
                          > upon the Mahanta and their
                          > desires and attachments?
                          >
                          > Look at the ECK stories... they
                          > all require the intercession and
                          > help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                          > via self-hypnosis and programming,
                          > (attachment) are being taught
                          > to call upon the Mahanta for
                          > anything and everything.. . but
                          > where is Soul and where is the
                          > ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                          > one mouthes certain "charged"
                          > 4th Plane words or thinks he/
                          > she is "detached" doesn't make
                          > it so!
                          >
                          > What's interesting is that these
                          > two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                          > don't require money in order
                          > to maintain (outer and Inner
                          > initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                          > but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                          > needed! This is what structured
                          > (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                          > order to control groups of people.
                          > I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                          > don't want to see the correlation
                          > and connect-the- dots.
                          >
                          > Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                          > the-dots? It probably has to do
                          > with their feelings of being "Superior
                          > Normal" and the delusion that
                          > gives them "all the answers" in
                          > order to alleviate their doubts
                          > and fears. The ego makes a better
                          > servant than it does a master,
                          > but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                          > hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                          > ego from Soul.
                          >
                          > Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                          > (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                          > writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                          > H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                          > What has Klemp been teaching
                          > his followers since he's been
                          > in charge?
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                          >
                          > So true. I really enjoyed your
                          > experiment.
                          >
                          > I used to do that sort of stuff
                          > until it became more sad than
                          > amusing.
                          >
                          > Also, a while back, I forgot
                          > to mention the books of
                          > Alan Watts, starting with
                          > "The Way of Zen" and
                          > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                          >
                          > The second title, of course,
                          > is a paradox, but one that
                          > makes sense without having
                          > to go too far into the book
                          > to see what he is talking about.
                          >
                          > One doesn't have to be necessarily
                          > into Zen or even Buddhism to
                          > understand where he was coming
                          > from.
                          >
                          > His books are very easy to read
                          > and are somewhat humorous.
                          >
                          > Interestingly, he obtained
                          > a master's degree in theology
                          > and "divinity" but went on to
                          > write twenty to thirty books
                          > on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                          > philosophies, and the psychology
                          > of religion, and the importance
                          > of mysticism insofar as the
                          > individual transcending man-
                          > made religion.
                          >
                          > whitemoby wrote:
                          >
                          > Truth can never by systemized,
                          > no matter how eloquently.
                          >
                          > Moby
                          >
                          > Rebazar Tarzs wrote:
                          >
                          > In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                          > after following instructions
                          > to the letter, but not losing
                          > his intuition, begins to question
                          > everything, and comes to
                          > see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                          > favorite or not-so-favorite
                          > community Utopia) as a kind
                          > of ivory tower, oblivious to
                          > real life, and thus, reality.
                          >
                          > He begins to realize that,
                          > after many years, and many
                          > relationships, Castilia is a
                          > self-protected society that
                          > does little, if anything, for
                          > the world outside its borders,
                          > and is burderned by a hierarchy
                          > of personalities and games
                          > people play.
                          >
                          > I won't reveal any more than
                          > this, in case someone is
                          > currently reading "Magister
                          > Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                          > but I will say this - throughout
                          > the whole story, Bruce Willis
                          > is dead.
                          >
                          > What?!?
                          >
                          > No, actually, the truth seeker,
                          > Knecht (which, in German,
                          > means servant and/or knight)
                          > (or so the Germans would have
                          > us believe) is, to the dumb-
                          > foundment of his "superiors",
                          > really looking for truth.
                          >
                          > No substitutes.
                          >
                          > I hope I didn't give away too
                          > much, as the book is almost
                          > 600 pages long, but, actually,
                          > I haven't, because there is
                          > so much truth in the story
                          > that everytime I re-read it,
                          > I realize something new.
                          >
                          > I know we used to say that
                          > about certain ECK books
                          > (before Harold) but the
                          > stuff that Paul took from
                          > others is timeless as well.
                          >
                          > What was kind of amusing
                          > is that when I read the book
                          > the first time, Darwin was
                          > the "Master."
                          >
                          > One of the first main characters
                          > in the story is the "Music Master."
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                          > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                          >
                          > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                          > It is no less than the highest
                          > reason that an entire future
                          > civilization exists. It is the
                          > grand and ongoing synthesis
                          > of all knowledge into a unified,
                          > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                          >
                          > It is an attempt to forge a
                          > holographic intellectual world
                          > where all is interconnected and
                          > reflected in every part. This is
                          > a mission to weave the golden
                          > thread of significance and meaning
                          > through every part of a culture-
                          > science and the arts and the
                          > spiritual are all unified into a
                          > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                          > rings.
                          >
                          > All this is primarily accomplished
                          > by using the language of music
                          > and mathematics as common
                          > universal symbolism (the "glass
                          > beads" are part of a symbolic
                          > physical aid that was once used
                          > for this purpose.)
                          >
                          > It is no wonder that the book
                          > places the first origins of the
                          > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                          > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                          > that the League of Journeyers
                          > to the East also figure prominently
                          > in its development. To some
                          > extent the Game has been the
                          > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                          > individuals and groups down
                          > through the ages.
                          >
                          > All of this stands in stark contrast
                          > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                          > where all knowledge, all culture,
                          > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                          > largely meaningless babble.
                          >
                          > The crisis that develops from
                          > this is that even if you accomplish
                          > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                          > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                          > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                          >
                          > It is necessary to reach out to the
                          > entire society once it is achieved
                          > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                          > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                          > mankind instead of individually
                          > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                          > society must be made whole and
                          > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                          >
                          > This is the realization that comes
                          > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                          > Master of the Game.
                          >
                          > For the game to be ultimately
                          > meaningful we have to coach
                          > everyone to eventually become
                          > Masters."
                          >
                          **********************************
                          >
                          > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                          > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                          > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                          > the religious strings attached? Not by
                          > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                          > to their membership donations or else
                          > they can lose initiations!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                        • Rebazar Tarzs
                          I am surprised that Harold hasn t already announced the ascension of Rebazar into whatever plane and/or wisdom temple already,  because that would get the 500
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 13, 2009
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                            I am surprised that Harold hasn't already announced the
                            ascension of Rebazar into whatever plane and/or wisdom temple
                            already,  because that would get the 500 Plus Year OId Man
                            thing out of his hair. 
                             
                            That would make Reb just another past master, one that no one can
                            prove did not exist.
                             
                            The EK Master medallion is a great idea.
                             
                            Are they waiting for the price of fool's gold to come down?   

                            --- On Tue, 10/13/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 6:14 AM

                             
                            Hello All,
                            Do you think Klemp will
                            mention that Darwin died
                            at this up coming Seminar?

                            If Rebazar died, as well,
                            maybe that will be the
                            excuse to make Joan an
                            EK Master... to take
                            Rebazar's place! Or,
                            would she finally be
                            taking Darwin's place?

                            BTW - I found a new way
                            that Klemp and Company
                            can make more money.

                            http://www.saintsfo rsinners. com/medalsgaller y.html

                            This site is "Saints for Sinners"
                            where people can buy a medallion
                            with their favorite Saint painted
                            upon it. All Eckankar has to do
                            is substitute the EK Masters for
                            the Saints... like Twitchell did!
                            Anyway, I'm sure that every Eckist
                            would buy a Rebazar Medallion
                            for whatever the cost!

                            Prometheus

                            realbizarretarzs wrote:

                            You're right. Maybe Rebazar
                            died and Harold was afraid
                            to talk about it.

                            After all, he still hasn't mentioned
                            the death of the 972nd Mahanta!


                            prometheus wrote:

                            > Hello All,
                            > In the Catholic Church there
                            > are all types within the "spiritual
                            > hierarchy" that can intercede
                            > with God on the behalf of man.
                            > Twitchell and Klemp merely
                            > copied this as well and added
                            > EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                            http://www.catholic .org/encyclopedi a/view.php? id=6146

                            > The thing about doing research
                            > on eCkankar is that Twitchell's
                            > version (with "c" added) along
                            > with Rebazar Tarzs didn't exist
                            > more than 50 years ago!
                            >
                            > This No Contact is strange
                            > (not really) since Rebazar has
                            > been around for 500 years, in
                            > the same physical body, and
                            > even sailed with Columbus
                            > (according to Klemp)!
                            >
                            > Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                            > mentioning REBAZAR (the
                            > Torchbearer) by name nor
                            > is there anything written by
                            > RT (in his own hand) for 500
                            > years!
                            >
                            > And, since Rebazar does
                            > (supposedly) have a 500
                            > year old physical body why
                            > didn't he show up before and
                            > after Twit died versus Gail
                            > having to use a dream from
                            > Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?
                            >
                            > Why hasn't RT shown up at
                            > an EK Seminar in all of these
                            > years and given a talk? Is he
                            > too good for that?
                            >
                            > If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                            > isn't too good or too "high"
                            > to give a Seminar talk why
                            > can't Rebazar appear and
                            > give one too? He is a physical
                            > being, still! Thus, RT should
                            > be expected to show up every
                            > now and then. But... he hasn't
                            > ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                            > dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                            > it because he pissed HK off by
                            > never showing up at an EK Seminar!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi there!
                            >
                            > The intercession part is the
                            > part I really don't understand!
                            >
                            > Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                            > and the previously published short
                            > articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                            > Free," I was at odds with my
                            > Presbyterian minister while taking
                            > confirmation classes (not my idea,
                            > of course, but my parents' idea of
                            > a good time) over this very point.
                            >
                            > I got the highest grades on everything,
                            > even higher than the minister's son,
                            > but the minister was always trying
                            > to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                            > the margins of my essays, that
                            > intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                            > necessary in order to have any kind
                            > of relationship with Spirit.
                            >
                            > And I agree with you about everything
                            > else you just said. Was Paul paying
                            > Rebazar $160.00 a year?
                            >
                            > How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                            >
                            > And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                            >
                            > It's funny that you mention connecting
                            > the dots.
                            >
                            > That is when I began to discover the
                            > books we weren't supposed to know
                            > about. In the nineties I was trying to
                            > connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                            > of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                            > least 5,000 years B.C.
                            >
                            > And by doing so, I was also researching
                            > "EK" and "HU" throughout history.
                            >
                            > Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                            >
                            > I think it is just a big psychological
                            > circus that takes place, say, for an
                            > example, at a major seminar. People
                            > get all psychologically open to auto-
                            > suggestion.
                            >
                            > If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                            > If not, it is because the chela has not
                            > been doing his or her "homework."
                            >
                            > Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                            >
                            > Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                            >
                            > Harold can dish it out both ways.
                            > And eat the cake himself.
                            >
                            > Again, just like with most religions,
                            > people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                            > fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                            > but fear of the unknown - something
                            > they are supposed to be conquering
                            > BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                            >
                            > They can't because they are clinging
                            > to the known world. Their little world
                            > of "Super Normal" people.
                            >
                            > With alot of these people, most or
                            > all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.
                            >
                            > What would they think? And the
                            > idea of letting others "below" or
                            > "beneath" them passing them up
                            > in "initiations" !
                            >
                            > What could be worse than that?
                            >
                            > Or being "demoted" as a person
                            > in any way?
                            >
                            > They give all their power to the
                            > heirarchy.
                            >
                            > They are powerless to help themselves.
                            > Not really, of course, but it is psychological.
                            >
                            > Whatever happened to power,
                            > wisdom and freedom?
                            >
                            > The answer, my friend, is blowing
                            > in the wind.
                            >
                            > But you knew that!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello All,
                            > Thanks for sharing your
                            > comments and the info
                            > about these books!
                            >
                            > As far as "transcending
                            > religion" it seems that this
                            > is what we thought we were
                            > doing when we joined the
                            > "path" of Eckankar way back
                            > when.
                            >
                            > Early on, Eckankar seemed
                            > to have a certain mystique
                            > about it. The reality, now,
                            > is that it was never what we
                            > imagined or desired. This
                            > PT/HK consciousness is based
                            > upon delusions, lies, and
                            > manipulations frozen
                            > in time as meaningless and
                            > imagined experiences and
                            > dreams via Klemp's over-
                            > simplified and mind numbing
                            > hypnotic message. This is
                            > the "real" reason people fall
                            > asleep during his talks! And,
                            > there's No spiritual meat
                            > (protein)!
                            >
                            > The Eckankar message is
                            > merely a redundancy and
                            > regurgitation of empty 2nd
                            > and 4th Plane thoughts and
                            > words.
                            >
                            > PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                            > Westernized rewrite of the
                            > Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                            > once borrowed and plagiarized
                            > (compiled) from Sant Mat
                            > religions (etc.), and from
                            > more knowledgeable/
                            > enlightened people by
                            > the trickster Twitchell.
                            >
                            > HK's EK "path" has not only
                            > become Christianized, but
                            > has also been exposed as
                            > just another "Feel Good"
                            > religious sect that preaches
                            > one thing and does another!
                            > It's a Codependent scam!
                            >
                            > Thus, the Klemps' egos
                            > are feeling pretty good
                            > right now and the "trickle-
                            > down effect" is still sustaining
                            > their EK followers/sheep/
                            > chickens in the same ways
                            > as other religions work their
                            > magic on the numb, dumb,
                            > fearful, and superstitious
                            > masses.
                            >
                            > Still, for Eckists who think
                            > they can see beyond the
                            > veil/void it's amazing to
                            > see that they are quite
                            > incapable of true change
                            > and of discovering the
                            > real path of TRUTH, and
                            > of experiencing the art
                            > of the obvious.
                            >
                            > Truth has escaped these
                            > Eckists and they will forever
                            > remain a pawn of the KAL
                            > and under Klemp's trance
                            > of providing "sales service."
                            >
                            > This, of course, benefits HK's
                            > selfish motives, and, on the
                            > other hand, it helps to give
                            > Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                            > This is why Klemp feels he
                            > is doing no harm since it
                            > provides of service for lost
                            > Souls until they become advanced
                            > enough to realize they don't
                            > need a middleman.
                            >
                            > However, the "catch" lies
                            > within the promises made
                            > and the innate desire of
                            > soul to "Know" God and to
                            > return Home again. Eckankar
                            > manipulates this desire with
                            > "initiations" that are turned
                            > into a KAL "Trap/Test."
                            >
                            > However, Not Desiring Initiations
                            > (via a pure heart) is another
                            > trap/test that has merely been
                            > disguised while the "desire"
                            > remains hidden from outer
                            > sight. Thus, it seems to be
                            > okay to "imagine" (and still
                            > desire) higher initiations on
                            > the "INNER" via the ruse of
                            > needing a Mahanta for more
                            > and more of these fake initiations
                            > in order to expand consciousness
                            > for more and more spiritual
                            > progress.
                            >
                            > Eckists are chasing their tails
                            > via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                            > rendition of circular logic and
                            > thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                            > and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                            > in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                            > is training Eckists to become
                            > more and more Codependent
                            > upon the Mahanta and their
                            > desires and attachments?
                            >
                            > Look at the ECK stories... they
                            > all require the intercession and
                            > help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                            > via self-hypnosis and programming,
                            > (attachment) are being taught
                            > to call upon the Mahanta for
                            > anything and everything.. . but
                            > where is Soul and where is the
                            > ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                            > one mouthes certain "charged"
                            > 4th Plane words or thinks he/
                            > she is "detached" doesn't make
                            > it so!
                            >
                            > What's interesting is that these
                            > two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                            > don't require money in order
                            > to maintain (outer and Inner
                            > initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                            > but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                            > needed! This is what structured
                            > (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                            > order to control groups of people.
                            > I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                            > don't want to see the correlation
                            > and connect-the- dots.
                            >
                            > Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                            > the-dots? It probably has to do
                            > with their feelings of being "Superior
                            > Normal" and the delusion that
                            > gives them "all the answers" in
                            > order to alleviate their doubts
                            > and fears. The ego makes a better
                            > servant than it does a master,
                            > but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                            > hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                            > ego from Soul.
                            >
                            > Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                            > (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                            > writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                            > H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                            > What has Klemp been teaching
                            > his followers since he's been
                            > in charge?
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                            >
                            > So true. I really enjoyed your
                            > experiment.
                            >
                            > I used to do that sort of stuff
                            > until it became more sad than
                            > amusing.
                            >
                            > Also, a while back, I forgot
                            > to mention the books of
                            > Alan Watts, starting with
                            > "The Way of Zen" and
                            > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                            >
                            > The second title, of course,
                            > is a paradox, but one that
                            > makes sense without having
                            > to go too far into the book
                            > to see what he is talking about.
                            >
                            > One doesn't have to be necessarily
                            > into Zen or even Buddhism to
                            > understand where he was coming
                            > from.
                            >
                            > His books are very easy to read
                            > and are somewhat humorous.
                            >
                            > Interestingly, he obtained
                            > a master's degree in theology
                            > and "divinity" but went on to
                            > write twenty to thirty books
                            > on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                            > philosophies, and the psychology
                            > of religion, and the importance
                            > of mysticism insofar as the
                            > individual transcending man-
                            > made religion.
                            >
                            > whitemoby wrote:
                            >
                            > Truth can never by systemized,
                            > no matter how eloquently.
                            >
                            > Moby
                            >
                            > Rebazar Tarzs wrote:
                            >
                            > In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                            > after following instructions
                            > to the letter, but not losing
                            > his intuition, begins to question
                            > everything, and comes to
                            > see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                            > favorite or not-so-favorite
                            > community Utopia) as a kind
                            > of ivory tower, oblivious to
                            > real life, and thus, reality.
                            >
                            > He begins to realize that,
                            > after many years, and many
                            > relationships, Castilia is a
                            > self-protected society that
                            > does little, if anything, for
                            > the world outside its borders,
                            > and is burderned by a hierarchy
                            > of personalities and games
                            > people play.
                            >
                            > I won't reveal any more than
                            > this, in case someone is
                            > currently reading "Magister
                            > Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                            > but I will say this - throughout
                            > the whole story, Bruce Willis
                            > is dead.
                            >
                            > What?!?
                            >
                            > No, actually, the truth seeker,
                            > Knecht (which, in German,
                            > means servant and/or knight)
                            > (or so the Germans would have
                            > us believe) is, to the dumb-
                            > foundment of his "superiors",
                            > really looking for truth.
                            >
                            > No substitutes.
                            >
                            > I hope I didn't give away too
                            > much, as the book is almost
                            > 600 pages long, but, actually,
                            > I haven't, because there is
                            > so much truth in the story
                            > that everytime I re-read it,
                            > I realize something new.
                            >
                            > I know we used to say that
                            > about certain ECK books
                            > (before Harold) but the
                            > stuff that Paul took from
                            > others is timeless as well.
                            >
                            > What was kind of amusing
                            > is that when I read the book
                            > the first time, Darwin was
                            > the "Master."
                            >
                            > One of the first main characters
                            > in the story is the "Music Master."
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                            > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                            >
                            > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                            > It is no less than the highest
                            > reason that an entire future
                            > civilization exists. It is the
                            > grand and ongoing synthesis
                            > of all knowledge into a unified,
                            > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                            >
                            > It is an attempt to forge a
                            > holographic intellectual world
                            > where all is interconnected and
                            > reflected in every part. This is
                            > a mission to weave the golden
                            > thread of significance and meaning
                            > through every part of a culture-
                            > science and the arts and the
                            > spiritual are all unified into a
                            > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                            > rings.
                            >
                            > All this is primarily accomplished
                            > by using the language of music
                            > and mathematics as common
                            > universal symbolism (the "glass
                            > beads" are part of a symbolic
                            > physical aid that was once used
                            > for this purpose.)
                            >
                            > It is no wonder that the book
                            > places the first origins of the
                            > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                            > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                            > that the League of Journeyers
                            > to the East also figure prominently
                            > in its development. To some
                            > extent the Game has been the
                            > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                            > individuals and groups down
                            > through the ages.
                            >
                            > All of this stands in stark contrast
                            > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                            > where all knowledge, all culture,
                            > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                            > largely meaningless babble.
                            >
                            > The crisis that develops from
                            > this is that even if you accomplish
                            > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                            > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                            > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                            >
                            > It is necessary to reach out to the
                            > entire society once it is achieved
                            > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                            > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                            > mankind instead of individually
                            > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                            > society must be made whole and
                            > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                            >
                            > This is the realization that comes
                            > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                            > Master of the Game.
                            >
                            > For the game to be ultimately
                            > meaningful we have to coach
                            > everyone to eventually become
                            > Masters."
                            >
                            ************ ********* ********* ****
                            >
                            > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                            > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                            > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                            > the religious strings attached? Not by
                            > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                            > to their membership donations or else
                            > they can lose initiations!
                            >
                            > Prometheus


                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello All, What do you think about Harry promoting Joan to a 12th Initiate, and EK Master status, this October 22? However, since she wouldn t be a LEM I guess
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 13, 2009
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                              Hello All,
                              What do you think about
                              Harry promoting Joan to
                              a 12th Initiate, and EK Master
                              status, this October 22?
                              However, since she wouldn't
                              be a LEM I guess that
                              her 12th initiation doesn't
                              have to happen on PT's
                              birthday of October 22!

                              Maybe HK'll just announce
                              that she was promoted
                              to that of a 12th EK Master.
                              Will Harry put in a good
                              word for her so that she
                              can get into the Ancient
                              Order (of 'just men') of
                              the Vairagi?

                              I don't think that "Third"
                              Fill-In Postal Clerk would
                              give Joan as good of a
                              recommendation as Harry,
                              but the clerk doesn't sleep
                              with her either!

                              Thus, Kata Daki (K.D.)
                              who is actually Kay-Dee,
                              or Twitchell's sister and
                              Joan (Harold's wife) would
                              be the only two female
                              ECK Masters! That's special.

                              I'd be willing to bet that
                              had Paul lived longer and
                              if Gail had not been so easily
                              enamoured that she'd have
                              been made a 12th and an
                              EK Master.

                              Yes, Rebazar might, now,
                              be an "Ascended" Master
                              for all we know! Who do
                              you think will be the next
                              "Torchbearer" to "fill-in"
                              as the LEM?

                              BTW- Eckankar Does Have
                              "medallions" now. And they
                              are made of FOOLS GOLD
                              since the cost can never
                              be recovered. When one
                              quits the EK cult the jewelry
                              can be sold on Ebay or
                              melted down for less than
                              half the price originally paid!

                              Question: Why does EK Jewelry
                              have to be so expensive when
                              EKists, usually, don't have all
                              that much extra money laying
                              around?

                              Thus, Peter and the Board
                              could enlist this Mexican
                              company "Saints for Sinners"
                              to do painted EK Master
                              Medallions for Eckankar.
                              maybe it could be a MN.
                              Satsang Project. They would
                              just send this company
                              the images of the fake EK
                              Masters... have them do
                              a sample run and see how
                              their likeness turned out
                              on the Medallions.

                              http://www.saintsforsinners.com/medalsgallery.html

                              Anyway, these new painted
                              EK Master Medallions would
                              be much less expensive and,
                              thus, much more affordable
                              than the gold medallions.
                              And, there'd be a better/larger
                              selection with colours too!

                              Plus, there'd be a larger profit
                              margin for Eckankar, on these
                              new medallions, versus the
                              ones they carry now due to
                              the high cost of gold.

                              After all, Why do Eckists think
                              the Catholic Church permits
                              (has approved of) these less
                              expensive medallions versus
                              Gold Medallions? It's because
                              they don't want to impede the
                              funds coming into the Church
                              (from lower income areas) due
                              to expensive religious jewelry.
                              Although, I'm sure that they
                              get a percentage of the sales.

                              Actually, this same view can
                              be applied to Eckankar Seminars
                              and the depletion of Eckists' funds
                              that is created by travel and stay
                              at these EK Events. Religious
                              Pilgrimages to a "Temple" or to
                              see the Pope/Mahanta do not
                              have to done more than once in
                              a lifetime! It's a waste of Building
                              Fund/Missionary Fund and EK
                              Materials monies! If "training"
                              is required the "trainers" can
                              travel to the local areas versus
                              the hundreds of trainees traveling
                              to the trainer. Law of Economy
                              anyone?

                              And, doesn't the EK Law of Economy
                              apply to the "Gold" EK Medallions
                              and to the real purpose of the EK
                              Seminars as well! Can't there be
                              an INNER SEMINAR for H.I.s that
                              would take the place of the OUTER
                              SEMINAR! Aren't Higher Initiates able
                              to experience this via their highly
                              expanded consciousness (and tools)
                              with the assistance of their Mahanta?
                              It's something to contemplate upon!

                              And, the Lower initiates (chelas)
                              could have their own Online EK
                              Seminar (workshops etc. included)
                              and save on the costs of travel and
                              hotel stay! Thus, more Donation
                              Money is made available!

                              Prometheus

                              realbizarretarzs wrote:

                              I am surprised that Harold
                              hasn't already announced
                              the ascension of Rebazar
                              into whatever plane and/
                              or wisdom temple already,
                              because that would get the
                              500 Plus Year OId Man
                              thing out of his hair.

                              That would make Reb just
                              another past master, one
                              that no one can prove did
                              not exist.

                              The EK Master medallion
                              is a great idea.

                              Are they waiting for the
                              price of fool's gold to
                              come down?


                              Prometheus wrote:

                              Hello All,
                              Do you think Klemp will
                              mention that Darwin died
                              at this up coming Seminar?

                              If Rebazar died, as well,
                              maybe that will be the
                              excuse to make Joan an
                              EK Master... to take
                              Rebazar's place! Or,
                              would she finally be
                              taking Darwin's place?

                              BTW - I found a new way
                              that Klemp and Company
                              can make more money.

                              http://www.saintsforsinners.com/medalsgallery.html

                              This site is "Saints for Sinners"
                              where people can buy a medallion
                              with their favorite Saint painted
                              upon it. All Eckankar has to do
                              is substitute the EK Masters for
                              the Saints... like Twitchell did!
                              Anyway, I'm sure that every Eckist
                              would buy a Rebazar Medallion
                              for whatever the cost!

                              Prometheus

                              realbizarretarzs wrote:

                              You're right. Maybe Rebazar
                              died and Harold was afraid
                              to talk about it.

                              After all, he still hasn't mentioned
                              the death of the 972nd Mahanta!


                              prometheus wrote:

                              > Hello All,
                              > In the Catholic Church there
                              > are all types within the "spiritual
                              > hierarchy" that can intercede
                              > with God on the behalf of man.
                              > Twitchell and Klemp merely
                              > copied this as well and added
                              > EK Masters and a Mahanta!

                              http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6146

                              > The thing about doing research
                              > on ECKankar (versus ekankar)
                              > is that Twitchell's version (with
                              > "c" added) along with Rebazar
                              > Tarzs didn't exist more than 50
                              > years ago!
                              >
                              > This No Physical Contact is strange
                              > (not really) since Rebazar has
                              > been around for 500 years, in
                              > the same Physical Body, and
                              > even sailed with Columbus
                              > (according to Klemp)!
                              >
                              > Yet, there is nothing, anywhere,
                              > mentioning REBAZAR (the
                              > Torchbearer) by name nor
                              > is there anything written by
                              > RT (in his own hand) for 500
                              > years!
                              >
                              > And, since Rebazar does
                              > (supposedly) have a 500
                              > year old physical body why
                              > didn't he show up before and
                              > after Twit died versus Gail
                              > having to use a dream from
                              > Paul to elect Darwin as LEM?
                              >
                              > Why hasn't RT shown up at
                              > an EK Seminar in all of these
                              > years and given a talk? Is he
                              > too good for that?
                              >
                              > If Klemp, Rebazar's Mahanta,
                              > isn't too good or too "high"
                              > to give a Seminar talk why
                              > can't Rebazar appear and
                              > give one too? He is a physical
                              > being, still! Thus, RT should
                              > be expected to show up every
                              > now and then. But... he hasn't
                              > ever shown up! Maybe Rebazar's
                              > dead and Klemp hasn't mentioned
                              > it because he pissed HK off by
                              > never showing up at an EK Seminar!
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi there!
                              >
                              > The intercession part is the
                              > part I really don't understand!
                              >
                              > Because of "Key To Secret Worlds"
                              > and the previously published short
                              > articles found in "In My Soul I Am
                              > Free," I was at odds with my
                              > Presbyterian minister while taking
                              > confirmation classes (not my idea,
                              > of course, but my parents' idea of
                              > a good time) over this very point.
                              >
                              > I got the highest grades on everything,
                              > even higher than the minister's son,
                              > but the minister was always trying
                              > to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                              > the margins of my essays, that
                              > intercession with "Jesus Christ" was
                              > necessary in order to have any kind
                              > of relationship with Spirit.
                              >
                              > And I agree with you about everything
                              > else you just said. Was Paul paying
                              > Rebazar $160.00 a year?
                              >
                              > How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                              >
                              > And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                              >
                              > It's funny that you mention connecting
                              > the dots.
                              >
                              > That is when I began to discover the
                              > books we weren't supposed to know
                              > about. In the nineties I was trying to
                              > connect the dots, to trace the "history"
                              > of "Eckankar" all the way back to at
                              > least 5,000 years B.C.
                              >
                              > And by doing so, I was also researching
                              > "EK" and "HU" throughout history.
                              >
                              > Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                              >
                              > I think it is just a big psychological
                              > circus that takes place, say, for an
                              > example, at a major seminar. People
                              > get all psychologically open to auto-
                              > suggestion.
                              >
                              > If things go well, it is because of Harold.
                              > If not, it is because the chela has not
                              > been doing his or her "homework."
                              >
                              > Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                              >
                              > Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                              >
                              > Harold can dish it out both ways.
                              > And eat the cake himself.
                              >
                              > Again, just like with most religions,
                              > people stay with "Eckankar" out of
                              > fear, not just fear of the "consequences" ,
                              > but fear of the unknown - something
                              > they are supposed to be conquering
                              > BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                              >
                              > They can't because they are clinging
                              > to the known world. Their little world
                              > of "Super Normal" people.
                              >
                              > With alot of these people, most or
                              > all of their "friends" are in Eckankar.
                              >
                              > What would they think? And the
                              > idea of letting others "below" or
                              > "beneath" them passing them up
                              > in "initiations" !
                              >
                              > What could be worse than that?
                              >
                              > Or being "demoted" as a person
                              > in any way?
                              >
                              > They give all their power to the
                              > heirarchy.
                              >
                              > They are powerless to help themselves.
                              > Not really, of course, but it is psychological.
                              >
                              > Whatever happened to power,
                              > wisdom and freedom?
                              >
                              > The answer, my friend, is blowing
                              > in the wind.
                              >
                              > But you knew that!
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello All,
                              > Thanks for sharing your
                              > comments and the info
                              > about these books!
                              >
                              > As far as "transcending
                              > religion" it seems that this
                              > is what we thought we were
                              > doing when we joined the
                              > "path" of Eckankar way back
                              > when.
                              >
                              > Early on, Eckankar seemed
                              > to have a certain mystique
                              > about it. The reality, now,
                              > is that it was never what we
                              > imagined or desired. This
                              > PT/HK consciousness is based
                              > upon delusions, lies, and
                              > manipulations frozen
                              > in time as meaningless and
                              > imagined experiences and
                              > dreams via Klemp's over-
                              > simplified and mind numbing
                              > hypnotic message. This is
                              > the "real" reason people fall
                              > asleep during his talks! And,
                              > there's No spiritual meat
                              > (protein)!
                              >
                              > The Eckankar message is
                              > merely a redundancy and
                              > regurgitation of empty 2nd
                              > and 4th Plane thoughts and
                              > words.
                              >
                              > PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                              > Westernized rewrite of the
                              > Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                              > once borrowed and plagiarized
                              > (compiled) from Sant Mat
                              > religions (etc.), and from
                              > more knowledgeable/
                              > enlightened people by
                              > the trickster Twitchell.
                              >
                              > HK's EK "path" has not only
                              > become Christianized, but
                              > has also been exposed as
                              > just another "Feel Good"
                              > religious sect that preaches
                              > one thing and does another!
                              > It's a Codependent scam!
                              >
                              > Thus, the Klemps' egos
                              > are feeling pretty good
                              > right now and the "trickle-
                              > down effect" is still sustaining
                              > their EK followers/sheep/
                              > chickens in the same ways
                              > as other religions work their
                              > magic on the numb, dumb,
                              > fearful, and superstitious
                              > masses.
                              >
                              > Still, for Eckists who think
                              > they can see beyond the
                              > veil/void it's amazing to
                              > see that they are quite
                              > incapable of true change
                              > and of discovering the
                              > real path of TRUTH, and
                              > of experiencing the art
                              > of the obvious.
                              >
                              > Truth has escaped these
                              > Eckists and they will forever
                              > remain a pawn of the KAL
                              > and under Klemp's trance
                              > of providing "sales service."
                              >
                              > This, of course, benefits HK's
                              > selfish motives, and, on the
                              > other hand, it helps to give
                              > Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                              > This is why Klemp feels he
                              > is doing no harm since it
                              > provides of service for lost
                              > Souls until they become advanced
                              > enough to realize they don't
                              > need a middleman.
                              >
                              > However, the "catch" lies
                              > within the promises made
                              > and the innate desire of
                              > soul to "Know" God and to
                              > return Home again. Eckankar
                              > manipulates this desire with
                              > "initiations" that are turned
                              > into a KAL "Trap/Test."
                              >
                              > However, Not Desiring Initiations
                              > (via a pure heart) is another
                              > trap/test that has merely been
                              > disguised while the "desire"
                              > remains hidden from outer
                              > sight. Thus, it seems to be
                              > okay to "imagine" (and still
                              > desire) higher initiations on
                              > the "INNER" via the ruse of
                              > needing a Mahanta for more
                              > and more of these fake initiations
                              > in order to expand consciousness
                              > for more and more spiritual
                              > progress.
                              >
                              > Eckists are chasing their tails
                              > via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                              > rendition of circular logic and
                              > thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                              > and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                              > in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                              > is training Eckists to become
                              > more and more Codependent
                              > upon the Mahanta and their
                              > desires and attachments?
                              >
                              > Look at the ECK stories... they
                              > all require the intercession and
                              > help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                              > via self-hypnosis and programming,
                              > (attachment) are being taught
                              > to call upon the Mahanta for
                              > anything and everything.. . but
                              > where is Soul and where is the
                              > ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                              > one mouthes certain "charged"
                              > 4th Plane words or thinks he/
                              > she is "detached" doesn't make
                              > it so!
                              >
                              > What's interesting is that these
                              > two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                              > don't require money in order
                              > to maintain (outer and Inner
                              > initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                              > but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                              > needed! This is what structured
                              > (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                              > order to control groups of people.
                              > I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                              > don't want to see the correlation
                              > and connect-the- dots.
                              >
                              > Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                              > the-dots? It probably has to do
                              > with their feelings of being "Superior
                              > Normal" and the delusion that
                              > gives them "all the answers" in
                              > order to alleviate their doubts
                              > and fears. The ego makes a better
                              > servant than it does a master,
                              > but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                              > hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                              > ego from Soul.
                              >
                              > Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                              > (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                              > writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                              > H.I. Letter, one has to wonder...
                              > What has Klemp been teaching
                              > his followers since he's been
                              > in charge?
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              > realbizarretarzs wrote:
                              >
                              > So true. I really enjoyed your
                              > experiment.
                              >
                              > I used to do that sort of stuff
                              > until it became more sad than
                              > amusing.
                              >
                              > Also, a while back, I forgot
                              > to mention the books of
                              > Alan Watts, starting with
                              > "The Way of Zen" and
                              > "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
                              >
                              > The second title, of course,
                              > is a paradox, but one that
                              > makes sense without having
                              > to go too far into the book
                              > to see what he is talking about.
                              >
                              > One doesn't have to be necessarily
                              > into Zen or even Buddhism to
                              > understand where he was coming
                              > from.
                              >
                              > His books are very easy to read
                              > and are somewhat humorous.
                              >
                              > Interestingly, he obtained
                              > a master's degree in theology
                              > and "divinity" but went on to
                              > write twenty to thirty books
                              > on Zen and Indian and Chinese
                              > philosophies, and the psychology
                              > of religion, and the importance
                              > of mysticism insofar as the
                              > individual transcending man-
                              > made religion.
                              >
                              > whitemoby wrote:
                              >
                              > Truth can never by systemized,
                              > no matter how eloquently.
                              >
                              > Moby
                              >
                              > Rebazar Tarzs wrote:
                              >
                              > In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                              > after following instructions
                              > to the letter, but not losing
                              > his intuition, begins to question
                              > everything, and comes to
                              > see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                              > favorite or not-so-favorite
                              > community Utopia) as a kind
                              > of ivory tower, oblivious to
                              > real life, and thus, reality.
                              >
                              > He begins to realize that,
                              > after many years, and many
                              > relationships, Castilia is a
                              > self-protected society that
                              > does little, if anything, for
                              > the world outside its borders,
                              > and is burderned by a hierarchy
                              > of personalities and games
                              > people play.
                              >
                              > I won't reveal any more than
                              > this, in case someone is
                              > currently reading "Magister
                              > Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                              > but I will say this - throughout
                              > the whole story, Bruce Willis
                              > is dead.
                              >
                              > What?!?
                              >
                              > No, actually, the truth seeker,
                              > Knecht (which, in German,
                              > means servant and/or knight)
                              > (or so the Germans would have
                              > us believe) is, to the dumb-
                              > foundment of his "superiors",
                              > really looking for truth.
                              >
                              > No substitutes.
                              >
                              > I hope I didn't give away too
                              > much, as the book is almost
                              > 600 pages long, but, actually,
                              > I haven't, because there is
                              > so much truth in the story
                              > that everytime I re-read it,
                              > I realize something new.
                              >
                              > I know we used to say that
                              > about certain ECK books
                              > (before Harold) but the
                              > stuff that Paul took from
                              > others is timeless as well.
                              >
                              > What was kind of amusing
                              > is that when I read the book
                              > the first time, Darwin was
                              > the "Master."
                              >
                              > One of the first main characters
                              > in the story is the "Music Master."
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > Here's a review from Amazon.com
                              > of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:
                              >
                              > "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                              > It is no less than the highest
                              > reason that an entire future
                              > civilization exists. It is the
                              > grand and ongoing synthesis
                              > of all knowledge into a unified,
                              > integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)
                              >
                              > It is an attempt to forge a
                              > holographic intellectual world
                              > where all is interconnected and
                              > reflected in every part. This is
                              > a mission to weave the golden
                              > thread of significance and meaning
                              > through every part of a culture-
                              > science and the arts and the
                              > spiritual are all unified into a
                              > system of concentric, interpenetrating
                              > rings.
                              >
                              > All this is primarily accomplished
                              > by using the language of music
                              > and mathematics as common
                              > universal symbolism (the "glass
                              > beads" are part of a symbolic
                              > physical aid that was once used
                              > for this purpose.)
                              >
                              > It is no wonder that the book
                              > places the first origins of the
                              > game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                              > and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                              > that the League of Journeyers
                              > to the East also figure prominently
                              > in its development. To some
                              > extent the Game has been the
                              > goal of all sensitive and introspective
                              > individuals and groups down
                              > through the ages.
                              >
                              > All of this stands in stark contrast
                              > to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                              > where all knowledge, all culture,
                              > is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                              > largely meaningless babble.
                              >
                              > The crisis that develops from
                              > this is that even if you accomplish
                              > this grand synthesis in some isolated
                              > ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                              > contemplatives- it isn't enough.
                              >
                              > It is necessary to reach out to the
                              > entire society once it is achieved
                              > in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                              > attempts to enlighten the rest of
                              > mankind instead of individually
                              > passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                              > society must be made whole and
                              > sacred and not just an isolated elite.
                              >
                              > This is the realization that comes
                              > even to the Magister Ludi, the
                              > Master of the Game.
                              >
                              > For the game to be ultimately
                              > meaningful we have to coach
                              > everyone to eventually become
                              > Masters."

                              **********************************

                              > Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                              > Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                              > outflow principle) be accomplished without
                              > the religious strings attached? Not by
                              > Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                              > to their membership donations or else
                              > they can lose initiations!
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              That is when I began to discover the books we weren t supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to connect the dots, to trace the history of
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 15, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                                supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
                                connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                                all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                                R.T.

                                Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
                                about Kal Niranjan, etc.

                                Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
                                issued from Sat Purush.

                                "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
                                Niranjan was incarnated."

                                http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
                                lower worlds were created.

                                I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

                                Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
                                Eckankar?

                                "No written instructions had been put down for the
                                followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
                                sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
                                took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
                                ancient science of Soul Travel."

                                [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
                                (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
                                p. 59]

                                And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
                                Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
                                gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

                                Etznab

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                                Thinking?

                                 






                                Hi there!
                                 
                                The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                                 
                                Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                                short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                                my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                                idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                                point.
                                 
                                I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
                                son,
                                but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                                the margins
                                of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
                                order
                                to have any kind of relationship with Spirit.
                                 
                                And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                                Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                                 
                                How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                                 
                                And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                                 
                                It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                                 
                                That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                                supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                                connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                                all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                                 
                                And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                                throughout history.
                                 
                                Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                                 
                                I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                                say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                                psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                                 
                                If things go well, it is because of Harold. If not, it is because
                                the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                                 
                                Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                                 
                                Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                                 
                                Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                                 
                                Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                                out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences", but fear of the
                                unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                                BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                                 
                                They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                                Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                                 
                                With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                                are in Eckankar.
                                 
                                What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                                or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations"!
                                 
                                What could be worse than that? 
                                 
                                Or being "demoted" as a person in any way?
                                 
                                They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                                 
                                They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                                but it is psychological.
                                 
                                Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                                 
                                The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                                 
                                But you knew that!
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                         
                                 
                                       

                                --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                wrote:


                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM


                                 

                                Hello All,
                                Thanks for sharing your
                                comments and the info
                                about these books!

                                As far as "transcending
                                religion" it seems that this
                                is what we thought we were
                                doing when we joined the
                                "path" of Eckankar way back
                                when.

                                Early on, Eckankar seemed
                                to have a certain mystique
                                about it. The reality, now,
                                is that it was never what we
                                imagined or desired. This
                                PT/HK consciousness is based
                                upon delusions, lies, and
                                manipulations frozen
                                in time as meaningless and
                                imagined experiences and
                                dreams via Klemp's over-
                                simplified and mind numbing
                                hypnotic message. This is
                                the "real" reason people fall
                                asleep during his talks! And,
                                there's No spiritual meat
                                (protein)!

                                The Eckankar message is
                                merely a redundancy and
                                regurgitation of empty 2nd
                                and 4th Plane thoughts and
                                words.

                                PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                                Westernized rewrite of the

                                Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                                once borrowed and plagiarized
                                (compiled) from Sant Mat
                                religions (etc.), and from
                                more knowledgeable/
                                enlightened people by
                                the trickster Twitchell.

                                HK's EK "path" has not only
                                become Christianized, but
                                has also been exposed as
                                just another "Feel Good"
                                religious sect that preaches
                                one thing and does another!
                                It's a Codependent scam!

                                Thus, the Klemps' egos
                                are feeling pretty good
                                right now and the "trickle-
                                down effect" is still sustaining
                                their EK followers/sheep/
                                chickens in the same ways
                                as other religions work their
                                magic on the numb, dumb,
                                fearful, and superstitious
                                masses.

                                Still, for Eckists who think
                                they can see beyond the
                                veil/void it's amazing to
                                see that they are quite
                                incapable of true change
                                and of discovering the
                                real path of TRUTH, and
                                of experiencing the art
                                of the obvious.


                                Truth has escaped these
                                Eckists and they will forever
                                remain a pawn of the KAL
                                and under Klemp's trance
                                of providing "sales service."

                                This, of course, benefits HK's
                                selfish motives, and, on the
                                other hand, it helps to give
                                Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                                This is why Klemp feels he
                                is doing no harm since it
                                provides of service for lost
                                Souls until they become advanced
                                enough to realize they don't
                                need a middleman.

                                However, the "catch" lies
                                within the promises made
                                and the innate desire of
                                soul to "Know" God and to
                                return Home again. Eckankar
                                manipulates this desire with
                                "initiations" that are turned
                                into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                                However, Not Desiring Initiations
                                (via a pure heart) is another
                                trap/test that has merely been
                                disguised while the "desire"
                                remains hidden from outer
                                sight. Thus, it seems to be
                                okay to "imagine" (and still
                                desire)
                                higher initiations on
                                the "INNER" via the ruse of
                                needing a Mahanta for more
                                and more of these fake initiations
                                in order to expand consciousness
                                for more and more spiritual
                                progress.

                                Eckists are chasing their tails
                                via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                                rendition of circular logic and
                                thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                                and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                                in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                                is training Eckists to become
                                more and more Codependent
                                upon the Mahanta and their
                                desires and attachments?

                                Look at the ECK stories... they
                                all require the intercession and
                                help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                                via self-hypnosis and programming,
                                (attachment) are being taught
                                to call upon the Mahanta for
                                anything and everything.. . but
                                where is Soul and where is the
                                ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                                one mouthes certain "charged"
                                4th Plane words or thinks he/
                                she is "detached" doesn't make

                                it so!

                                What's interesting is that these
                                two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                                don't require money in order
                                to maintain (outer and Inner
                                initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                                but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                                needed! This is what structured
                                (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                                order to control groups of people.
                                I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                                don't want to see the correlation
                                and connect-the- dots.

                                Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                                the-dots? It probably has to do
                                with their feelings of being "Superior
                                Normal" and the delusion that
                                gives them "all the answers" in
                                order to alleviate their doubts
                                and fears. The ego makes a better
                                servant than it does a master,
                                but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                                hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                                ego from Soul.

                                Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                                (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                                writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                                H.I.
                                Letter, one has to wonder...
                                What has Klemp been teaching
                                his followers since he's been
                                in charge?

                                Prometheus

                                realbizarretarzs wrote:

                                So true. I really enjoyed your
                                experiment.

                                I used to do that sort of stuff
                                until it became more sad than
                                amusing.

                                Also, a while back, I forgot
                                to mention the books of
                                Alan Watts, starting with
                                "The Way of Zen" and
                                "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                                The second title, of course,
                                is a paradox, but one that
                                makes sense without having
                                to go too far into the book
                                to see what he is talking about.

                                One doesn't have to be necessarily
                                into Zen or even Buddhism to
                                understand where he was coming
                                from.

                                His books are very easy to read
                                and are somewhat humorous.

                                Interestingly, he obtained
                                a master's degree in theology
                                and "divinity" but went on to
                                write twenty to thirty books
                                on Zen and Indian and
                                Chinese
                                philosophies, and the psychology
                                of religion, and the importance
                                of mysticism insofar as the
                                individual transcending man-
                                made religion.

                                whitemoby wrote:

                                Truth can never by systemized,
                                no matter how eloquently.

                                Moby

                                Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                                In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                                after following instructions
                                to the letter, but not losing
                                his intuition, begins to question
                                everything, and comes to
                                see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                                favorite or not-so-favorite
                                community Utopia) as a kind
                                of ivory tower, oblivious to
                                real life, and thus, reality.

                                He begins to realize that,
                                after many years, and many
                                relationships, Castilia is a
                                self-protected society that
                                does little, if anything, for
                                the world outside its borders,
                                and is burderned by a hierarchy
                                of personalities and games
                                people play.

                                I won't reveal any more than
                                this, in
                                case someone is
                                currently reading "Magister
                                Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                                but I will say this - throughout
                                the whole story, Bruce Willis
                                is dead.

                                What?!?

                                No, actually, the truth seeker,
                                Knecht (which, in German,
                                means servant and/or knight)
                                (or so the Germans would have
                                us believe) is, to the dumb-
                                foundment of his "superiors",
                                really looking for truth.

                                No substitutes.

                                I hope I didn't give away too
                                much, as the book is almost
                                600 pages long, but, actually,
                                I haven't, because there is
                                so much truth in the story
                                that everytime I re-read it,
                                I realize something new.

                                I know we used to say that
                                about certain ECK books
                                (before Harold) but the
                                stuff that Paul took from
                                others is timeless as well.

                                What was kind of amusing
                                is that when I read the book
                                the first time, Darwin was
                                the "Master."

                                One of the first main characters

                                in the story is the "Music Master."


                                prometheus wrote:

                                Here's a review from Amazon.com
                                of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                                "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                                It is no less than the highest
                                reason that an entire future
                                civilization exists. It is the
                                grand and ongoing synthesis
                                of all knowledge into a unified,
                                integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                                It is an attempt to forge a
                                holographic intellectual world
                                where all is interconnected and
                                reflected in every part. This is
                                a mission to weave the golden
                                thread of significance and meaning
                                through every part of a culture-
                                science and the arts and the
                                spiritual are all unified into a
                                system of concentric, interpenetrating
                                rings.

                                All this is primarily accomplished
                                by using the language of music
                                and mathematics as common
                                universal symbolism (the "glass
                                beads" are part of a symbolic
                                physical
                                aid that was once used
                                for this purpose.)

                                It is no wonder that the book
                                places the first origins of the
                                game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                                and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                                that the League of Journeyers
                                to the East also figure prominently
                                in its development. To some
                                extent the Game has been the
                                goal of all sensitive and introspective
                                individuals and groups down
                                through the ages.

                                All of this stands in stark contrast
                                to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                                where all knowledge, all culture,
                                is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                                largely meaningless babble.

                                The crisis that develops from
                                this is that even if you accomplish
                                this grand synthesis in some isolated
                                ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                                contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                                It is necessary to reach out to the
                                entire society once it is achieved
                                in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                                attempts to enlighten the rest
                                of
                                mankind instead of individually
                                passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                                society must be made whole and
                                sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                                This is the realization that comes
                                even to the Magister Ludi, the
                                Master of the Game.

                                For the game to be ultimately
                                meaningful we have to coach
                                everyone to eventually become
                                Masters."

                                ************ ********* ********* ****

                                Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                                Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                                outflow principle) be accomplished without
                                the religious strings attached? Not by
                                Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                                to their membership donations or else
                                they can lose initiations!

                                Prometheus
                              • Rebazar Tarzs
                                From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.   I don t know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 16, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one
                                  (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.
                                   
                                  I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did
                                  (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,
                                  these two seemed to be on the same page,
                                  so to speak.
                                   
                                  Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?
                                   
                                  It is all poetry.
                                   
                                  Thanks for the link.
                                   
                                  Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where
                                  Kabir got this information.
                                   
                                  Do you know?  

                                  --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                                  From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM

                                   
                                  That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                                  supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
                                  connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                                  all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                                  R.T.

                                  Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
                                  about Kal Niranjan, etc.

                                  Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
                                  issued from Sat Purush.

                                  "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
                                  Niranjan was incarnated."

                                  http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book& book=4817& page=23

                                  This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
                                  lower worlds were created.

                                  I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

                                  Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
                                  Eckankar?

                                  "No written instructions had been put down for the
                                  followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
                                  sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
                                  took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
                                  ancient science of Soul Travel."

                                  [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
                                  (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
                                  p. 59]

                                  And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
                                  Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
                                  gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

                                  Etznab

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                                  Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
                                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                                  Thinking?

                                   

                                  Hi there!
                                   
                                  The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                                   
                                  Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                                  short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                                  my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                                  idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                                  point.
                                   
                                  I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
                                  son,
                                  but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                                  the margins
                                  of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
                                  order
                                  to have any kind of relationship with Spirit.
                                   
                                  And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                                  Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                                   
                                  How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                                   
                                  And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                                   
                                  It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                                   
                                  That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                                  supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                                  connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                                  all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                                   
                                  And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                                  throughout history.
                                   
                                  Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                                   
                                  I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                                  say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                                  psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                                   
                                  If things go well, it is because of Harold. If not, it is because
                                  the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                                   
                                  Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                                   
                                  Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                                   
                                  Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                                   
                                  Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                                  out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the
                                  unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                                  BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                                   
                                  They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                                  Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                                   
                                  With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                                  are in Eckankar.
                                   
                                  What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                                  or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !
                                   
                                  What could be worse than that? 
                                   
                                  Or being "demoted" as a person in any way?
                                   
                                  They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                                   
                                  They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                                  but it is psychological.
                                   
                                  Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                                   
                                  The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                                   
                                  But you knew that!
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                           
                                   
                                         

                                  --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@ yahoo.com&gt;
                                  wrote:

                                  From: prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@ yahoo.com&gt;
                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                                  Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

                                   

                                  Hello All,
                                  Thanks for sharing your
                                  comments and the info
                                  about these books!

                                  As far as "transcending
                                  religion" it seems that this
                                  is what we thought we were
                                  doing when we joined the
                                  "path" of Eckankar way back
                                  when.

                                  Early on, Eckankar seemed
                                  to have a certain mystique
                                  about it. The reality, now,
                                  is that it was never what we
                                  imagined or desired. This
                                  PT/HK consciousness is based
                                  upon delusions, lies, and
                                  manipulations frozen
                                  in time as meaningless and
                                  imagined experiences and
                                  dreams via Klemp's over-
                                  simplified and mind numbing
                                  hypnotic message. This is
                                  the "real" reason people fall
                                  asleep during his talks! And,
                                  there's No spiritual meat
                                  (protein)!

                                  The Eckankar message is
                                  merely a redundancy and
                                  regurgitation of empty 2nd
                                  and 4th Plane thoughts and
                                  words.

                                  PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                                  Westernized rewrite of the

                                  Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                                  once borrowed and plagiarized
                                  (compiled) from Sant Mat
                                  religions (etc.), and from
                                  more knowledgeable/
                                  enlightened people by
                                  the trickster Twitchell.

                                  HK's EK "path" has not only
                                  become Christianized, but
                                  has also been exposed as
                                  just another "Feel Good"
                                  religious sect that preaches
                                  one thing and does another!
                                  It's a Codependent scam!

                                  Thus, the Klemps' egos
                                  are feeling pretty good
                                  right now and the "trickle-
                                  down effect" is still sustaining
                                  their EK followers/sheep/
                                  chickens in the same ways
                                  as other religions work their
                                  magic on the numb, dumb,
                                  fearful, and superstitious
                                  masses.

                                  Still, for Eckists who think
                                  they can see beyond the
                                  veil/void it's amazing to
                                  see that they are quite
                                  incapable of true change
                                  and of discovering the
                                  real path of TRUTH, and
                                  of experiencing the art
                                  of the obvious.

                                  Truth has escaped these
                                  Eckists and they will forever
                                  remain a pawn of the KAL
                                  and under Klemp's trance
                                  of providing "sales service."

                                  This, of course, benefits HK's
                                  selfish motives, and, on the
                                  other hand, it helps to give
                                  Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                                  This is why Klemp feels he
                                  is doing no harm since it
                                  provides of service for lost
                                  Souls until they become advanced
                                  enough to realize they don't
                                  need a middleman.

                                  However, the "catch" lies
                                  within the promises made
                                  and the innate desire of
                                  soul to "Know" God and to
                                  return Home again. Eckankar
                                  manipulates this desire with
                                  "initiations" that are turned
                                  into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                                  However, Not Desiring Initiations
                                  (via a pure heart) is another
                                  trap/test that has merely been
                                  disguised while the "desire"
                                  remains hidden from outer
                                  sight. Thus, it seems to be
                                  okay to "imagine" (and still
                                  desire)
                                  higher initiations on
                                  the "INNER" via the ruse of
                                  needing a Mahanta for more
                                  and more of these fake initiations
                                  in order to expand consciousness
                                  for more and more spiritual
                                  progress.

                                  Eckists are chasing their tails
                                  via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                                  rendition of circular logic and
                                  thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                                  and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                                  in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                                  is training Eckists to become
                                  more and more Codependent
                                  upon the Mahanta and their
                                  desires and attachments?

                                  Look at the ECK stories... they
                                  all require the intercession and
                                  help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                                  via self-hypnosis and programming,
                                  (attachment) are being taught
                                  to call upon the Mahanta for
                                  anything and everything.. . but
                                  where is Soul and where is the
                                  ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                                  one mouthes certain "charged"
                                  4th Plane words or thinks he/
                                  she is "detached" doesn't make

                                  it so!

                                  What's interesting is that these
                                  two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                                  don't require money in order
                                  to maintain (outer and Inner
                                  initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                                  but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                                  needed! This is what structured
                                  (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                                  order to control groups of people.
                                  I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                                  don't want to see the correlation
                                  and connect-the- dots.

                                  Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                                  the-dots? It probably has to do
                                  with their feelings of being "Superior
                                  Normal" and the delusion that
                                  gives them "all the answers" in
                                  order to alleviate their doubts
                                  and fears. The ego makes a better
                                  servant than it does a master,
                                  but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                                  hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                                  ego from Soul.

                                  Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                                  (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                                  writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                                  H.I.
                                  Letter, one has to wonder...
                                  What has Klemp been teaching
                                  his followers since he's been
                                  in charge?

                                  Prometheus

                                  realbizarretarzs wrote:

                                  So true. I really enjoyed your
                                  experiment.

                                  I used to do that sort of stuff
                                  until it became more sad than
                                  amusing.

                                  Also, a while back, I forgot
                                  to mention the books of
                                  Alan Watts, starting with
                                  "The Way of Zen" and
                                  "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                                  The second title, of course,
                                  is a paradox, but one that
                                  makes sense without having
                                  to go too far into the book
                                  to see what he is talking about.

                                  One doesn't have to be necessarily
                                  into Zen or even Buddhism to
                                  understand where he was coming
                                  from.

                                  His books are very easy to read
                                  and are somewhat humorous.

                                  Interestingly, he obtained
                                  a master's degree in theology
                                  and "divinity" but went on to
                                  write twenty to thirty books
                                  on Zen and Indian and
                                  Chinese
                                  philosophies, and the psychology
                                  of religion, and the importance
                                  of mysticism insofar as the
                                  individual transcending man-
                                  made religion.

                                  whitemoby wrote:

                                  Truth can never by systemized,
                                  no matter how eloquently.

                                  Moby

                                  Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                                  In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                                  after following instructions
                                  to the letter, but not losing
                                  his intuition, begins to question
                                  everything, and comes to
                                  see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                                  favorite or not-so-favorite
                                  community Utopia) as a kind
                                  of ivory tower, oblivious to
                                  real life, and thus, reality.

                                  He begins to realize that,
                                  after many years, and many
                                  relationships, Castilia is a
                                  self-protected society that
                                  does little, if anything, for
                                  the world outside its borders,
                                  and is burderned by a hierarchy
                                  of personalities and games
                                  people play.

                                  I won't reveal any more than
                                  this, in
                                  case someone is
                                  currently reading "Magister
                                  Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                                  but I will say this - throughout
                                  the whole story, Bruce Willis
                                  is dead.

                                  What?!?

                                  No, actually, the truth seeker,
                                  Knecht (which, in German,
                                  means servant and/or knight)
                                  (or so the Germans would have
                                  us believe) is, to the dumb-
                                  foundment of his "superiors",
                                  really looking for truth.

                                  No substitutes.

                                  I hope I didn't give away too
                                  much, as the book is almost
                                  600 pages long, but, actually,
                                  I haven't, because there is
                                  so much truth in the story
                                  that everytime I re-read it,
                                  I realize something new.

                                  I know we used to say that
                                  about certain ECK books
                                  (before Harold) but the
                                  stuff that Paul took from
                                  others is timeless as well.

                                  What was kind of amusing
                                  is that when I read the book
                                  the first time, Darwin was
                                  the "Master."

                                  One of the first main characters

                                  in the story is the "Music Master."

                                  prometheus wrote:

                                  Here's a review from Amazon.com
                                  of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                                  "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                                  It is no less than the highest
                                  reason that an entire future
                                  civilization exists. It is the
                                  grand and ongoing synthesis
                                  of all knowledge into a unified,
                                  integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                                  It is an attempt to forge a
                                  holographic intellectual world
                                  where all is interconnected and
                                  reflected in every part. This is
                                  a mission to weave the golden
                                  thread of significance and meaning
                                  through every part of a culture-
                                  science and the arts and the
                                  spiritual are all unified into a
                                  system of concentric, interpenetrating
                                  rings.

                                  All this is primarily accomplished
                                  by using the language of music
                                  and mathematics as common
                                  universal symbolism (the "glass
                                  beads" are part of a symbolic
                                  physical
                                  aid that was once used
                                  for this purpose.)

                                  It is no wonder that the book
                                  places the first origins of the
                                  game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                                  and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                                  that the League of Journeyers
                                  to the East also figure prominently
                                  in its development. To some
                                  extent the Game has been the
                                  goal of all sensitive and introspective
                                  individuals and groups down
                                  through the ages.

                                  All of this stands in stark contrast
                                  to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                                  where all knowledge, all culture,
                                  is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                                  largely meaningless babble.

                                  The crisis that develops from
                                  this is that even if you accomplish
                                  this grand synthesis in some isolated
                                  ivory tower refuge of intellectual
                                  contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                                  It is necessary to reach out to the
                                  entire society once it is achieved
                                  in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                                  attempts to enlighten the rest
                                  of
                                  mankind instead of individually
                                  passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                                  society must be made whole and
                                  sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                                  This is the realization that comes
                                  even to the Magister Ludi, the
                                  Master of the Game.

                                  For the game to be ultimately
                                  meaningful we have to coach
                                  everyone to eventually become
                                  Masters."

                                  ************ ********* ********* ****

                                  Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                                  Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                                  outflow principle) be accomplished without
                                  the religious strings attached? Not by
                                  Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                                  to their membership donations or else
                                  they can lose initiations!

                                  Prometheus


                                • etznab@aol.com
                                  I don t have the book by Kabir that you mentioned. And I don t know that he ever mentioned ek onkar. Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked similar to
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.
                                    And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

                                    Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked
                                    similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I
                                    believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I
                                    saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed
                                    over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks
                                    similar in some ways, but different.

                                    http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html

                                    Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and
                                    Kapila.

                                    In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh
                                    are mentioned here.

                                    http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html

                                    It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak
                                    Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

                                    The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the
                                    teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number
                                    of similarities. IMO.

                                    The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are
                                    curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya
                                    philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show
                                    the order and sequence of creation.)

                                    The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

                                    It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for
                                    Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by
                                    Kabir.

                                    The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.

                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

                                    The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.

                                    http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                    The apparent tendency in both systems seems
                                    to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

                                    From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

                                    "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:
                                    When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was
                                    incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the
                                    body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"

                                    http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                    I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described
                                    as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's
                                    story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,
                                    where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

                                    IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are
                                    the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths
                                    literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas
                                    that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal
                                    organized religious interpretations which may be far,
                                    far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-
                                    come disconnected from the true origins of their path
                                    appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"
                                    leading the "blind".

                                    As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

                                    See what I mean? :)

                                    For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)
                                    is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To
                                    look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

                                    Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and
                                    clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have
                                    visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't
                                    have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths
                                    except when they are taken literally and people don't see
                                    the difference between fiction and fact.

                                    Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can
                                    the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell
                                    from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

                                    I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from
                                    the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and
                                    keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same
                                    teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the
                                    lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

                                    Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-
                                    ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

                                    However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these
                                    stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.
                                    Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of
                                    them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those
                                    sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be
                                    they members of a particular religion or not - often have
                                    to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms
                                    of "torture" for speaking their minds.

                                    Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-
                                    pool and everything goes down the drain? :)

                                    Etznab






                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am
                                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                                    Thinking?

                                     






                                    From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one
                                    (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.
                                     
                                    I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did
                                    (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,
                                    these two seemed to be on the same page,
                                    so to speak.
                                     
                                    Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?
                                     
                                    It is all poetry.
                                     
                                    Thanks for the link.
                                     
                                    Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where
                                    Kabir got this information.
                                     
                                    Do you know?  

                                    --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:


                                    From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                                    Thinking?
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM


                                     

                                    That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                                    supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
                                    connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                                    all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                                    R.T.

                                    Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
                                    about Kal Niranjan, etc.

                                    Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
                                    issued from Sat Purush.

                                    "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
                                    Niranjan was incarnated."

                                    http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&
                                    book=4817& page=23

                                    This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
                                    lower worlds were created.

                                    I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

                                    Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
                                    Eckankar?

                                    "No written instructions had been put
                                    down for the
                                    followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
                                    sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
                                    took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
                                    ancient science of Soul Travel."

                                    [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
                                    (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
                                    p. 59]

                                    And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
                                    Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
                                    gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

                                    Etznab

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                                    Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
                                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                                    Thinking?

                                     

                                    Hi there!
                                     
                                    The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
                                     
                                    Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
                                    short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
                                    my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
                                    idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
                                    point.
                                     
                                    I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
                                    son,
                                    but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
                                    the margins
                                    of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
                                    order
                                    to have any kind
                                    of relationship with Spirit.
                                     
                                    And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
                                    Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
                                     
                                    How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
                                     
                                    And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
                                     
                                    It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
                                     
                                    That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
                                    supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
                                    connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
                                    all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
                                     
                                    And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
                                    throughout history.
                                     
                                    Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
                                     
                                    I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
                                    say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
                                    psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
                                     
                                    If things go well, it is because of Harold. If
                                    not, it is because
                                    the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
                                     
                                    Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
                                     
                                    Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
                                     
                                    Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
                                     
                                    Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
                                    out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the
                                    unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
                                    BECAUSE of Eckankar!
                                     
                                    They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
                                    Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
                                     
                                    With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
                                    are in Eckankar.
                                     
                                    What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
                                    or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !
                                     
                                    What could be worse than that? 
                                     
                                    Or being "demoted" as a person in any
                                    way?
                                     
                                    They give all their power to the heirarchy.
                                     
                                    They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
                                    but it is psychological.
                                     
                                    Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
                                     
                                    The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
                                     
                                    But you knew that!
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                             
                                     
                                           

                                    --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                                    wrote:

                                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                                    Subject:
                                    [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                                    Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

                                     

                                    Hello All,
                                    Thanks for sharing your
                                    comments and the info
                                    about these books!

                                    As far as "transcending
                                    religion" it seems that this
                                    is what we thought we were
                                    doing when we joined the
                                    "path" of Eckankar way back
                                    when.

                                    Early on, Eckankar seemed
                                    to have a certain mystique
                                    about it. The reality, now,
                                    is that it was never what we
                                    imagined or desired. This
                                    PT/HK consciousness is based
                                    upon delusions, lies, and
                                    manipulations frozen
                                    in time as meaningless and
                                    imagined experiences and
                                    dreams via Klemp's over-
                                    simplified and mind
                                    numbing
                                    hypnotic message. This is
                                    the "real" reason people fall
                                    asleep during his talks! And,
                                    there's No spiritual meat
                                    (protein)!

                                    The Eckankar message is
                                    merely a redundancy and
                                    regurgitation of empty 2nd
                                    and 4th Plane thoughts and
                                    words.

                                    PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
                                    Westernized rewrite of the

                                    Eastern thoughts and dogmas
                                    once borrowed and plagiarized
                                    (compiled) from Sant Mat
                                    religions (etc.), and from
                                    more knowledgeable/
                                    enlightened people by
                                    the trickster Twitchell.

                                    HK's EK "path" has not only
                                    become Christianized, but
                                    has also been exposed as
                                    just another "Feel Good"
                                    religious sect that preaches
                                    one thing and does another!
                                    It's a Codependent scam!

                                    Thus, the Klemps' egos
                                    are feeling pretty good
                                    right now and the "trickle-
                                    down effect" is still sustaining
                                    their EK followers/sheep/
                                    chickens in the same ways
                                    as other religions work
                                    their
                                    magic on the numb, dumb,
                                    fearful, and superstitious
                                    masses.

                                    Still, for Eckists who think
                                    they can see beyond the
                                    veil/void it's amazing to
                                    see that they are quite
                                    incapable of true change
                                    and of discovering the
                                    real path of TRUTH, and
                                    of experiencing the art
                                    of the obvious.

                                    Truth has escaped these
                                    Eckists and they will forever
                                    remain a pawn of the KAL
                                    and under Klemp's trance
                                    of providing "sales service."

                                    This, of course, benefits HK's
                                    selfish motives, and, on the
                                    other hand, it helps to give
                                    Eckists a "higher" purpose.
                                    This is why Klemp feels he
                                    is doing no harm since it
                                    provides of service for lost
                                    Souls until they become advanced
                                    enough to realize they don't
                                    need a middleman.

                                    However, the "catch" lies
                                    within the promises made
                                    and the innate desire of
                                    soul to "Know" God and to
                                    return Home again. Eckankar
                                    manipulates this desire
                                    with
                                    "initiations" that are turned
                                    into a KAL "Trap/Test."

                                    However, Not Desiring Initiations
                                    (via a pure heart) is another
                                    trap/test that has merely been
                                    disguised while the "desire"
                                    remains hidden from outer
                                    sight. Thus, it seems to be
                                    okay to "imagine" (and still
                                    desire)
                                    higher initiations on
                                    the "INNER" via the ruse of
                                    needing a Mahanta for more
                                    and more of these fake initiations
                                    in order to expand consciousness
                                    for more and more spiritual
                                    progress.

                                    Eckists are chasing their tails
                                    via Twitchell's and Klemp's
                                    rendition of circular logic and
                                    thinking. How can Self-Mastery
                                    and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
                                    in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
                                    is training Eckists to become
                                    more and more Codependent
                                    upon the Mahanta and their
                                    desires and attachments?

                                    Look at the ECK stories... they
                                    all require the intercession and
                                    help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
                                    via
                                    self-hypnosis and programming,
                                    (attachment) are being taught
                                    to call upon the Mahanta for
                                    anything and everything.. . but
                                    where is Soul and where is the
                                    ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
                                    one mouthes certain "charged"
                                    4th Plane words or thinks he/
                                    she is "detached" doesn't make

                                    it so!

                                    What's interesting is that these
                                    two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
                                    don't require money in order
                                    to maintain (outer and Inner
                                    initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
                                    but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
                                    needed! This is what structured
                                    (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
                                    order to control groups of people.
                                    I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
                                    don't want to see the correlation
                                    and connect-the- dots.

                                    Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
                                    the-dots? It probably has to do
                                    with their feelings of being "Superior
                                    Normal" and the delusion that
                                    gives them "all the answers" in
                                    order to alleviate their
                                    doubts
                                    and fears. The ego makes a better
                                    servant than it does a master,
                                    but with "initiations" and a "RESA
                                    hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
                                    ego from Soul.

                                    Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
                                    (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
                                    writes what she did, in the 09/2009
                                    H.I.
                                    Letter, one has to wonder...
                                    What has Klemp been teaching
                                    his followers since he's been
                                    in charge?

                                    Prometheus

                                    realbizarretarzs wrote:

                                    So true. I really enjoyed your
                                    experiment.

                                    I used to do that sort of stuff
                                    until it became more sad than
                                    amusing.

                                    Also, a while back, I forgot
                                    to mention the books of
                                    Alan Watts, starting with
                                    "The Way of Zen" and
                                    "The Wisdom of Insecurity".

                                    The second title, of course,
                                    is a paradox, but one that
                                    makes sense without having
                                    to go too far into the book
                                    to see what he is talking about.

                                    One doesn't have to be necessarily
                                    into Zen or even
                                    Buddhism to
                                    understand where he was coming
                                    from.

                                    His books are very easy to read
                                    and are somewhat humorous.

                                    Interestingly, he obtained
                                    a master's degree in theology
                                    and "divinity" but went on to
                                    write twenty to thirty books
                                    on Zen and Indian and
                                    Chinese
                                    philosophies, and the psychology
                                    of religion, and the importance
                                    of mysticism insofar as the
                                    individual transcending man-
                                    made religion.

                                    whitemoby wrote:

                                    Truth can never by systemized,
                                    no matter how eloquently.

                                    Moby

                                    Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

                                    In the story, Joseph Knecht,
                                    after following instructions
                                    to the letter, but not losing
                                    his intuition, begins to question
                                    everything, and comes to
                                    see "Castilia" (or, insert your
                                    favorite or not-so-favorite
                                    community Utopia) as a kind
                                    of ivory tower, oblivious to
                                    real life, and thus, reality.

                                    He begins to realize that,
                                    after many years, and
                                    many
                                    relationships, Castilia is a
                                    self-protected society that
                                    does little, if anything, for
                                    the world outside its borders,
                                    and is burderned by a hierarchy
                                    of personalities and games
                                    people play.

                                    I won't reveal any more than
                                    this, in
                                    case someone is
                                    currently reading "Magister
                                    Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
                                    but I will say this - throughout
                                    the whole story, Bruce Willis
                                    is dead.

                                    What?!?

                                    No, actually, the truth seeker,
                                    Knecht (which, in German,
                                    means servant and/or knight)
                                    (or so the Germans would have
                                    us believe) is, to the dumb-
                                    foundment of his "superiors",
                                    really looking for truth.

                                    No substitutes.

                                    I hope I didn't give away too
                                    much, as the book is almost
                                    600 pages long, but, actually,
                                    I haven't, because there is
                                    so much truth in the story
                                    that everytime I re-read it,
                                    I realize something new.

                                    I know we used to say that
                                    about certain
                                    ECK books
                                    (before Harold) but the
                                    stuff that Paul took from
                                    others is timeless as well.

                                    What was kind of amusing
                                    is that when I read the book
                                    the first time, Darwin was
                                    the "Master."

                                    One of the first main characters

                                    in the story is the "Music Master."

                                    prometheus wrote:

                                    Here's a review from Amazon.com
                                    of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

                                    "What is the Glass Bead Game?
                                    It is no less than the highest
                                    reason that an entire future
                                    civilization exists. It is the
                                    grand and ongoing synthesis
                                    of all knowledge into a unified,
                                    integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

                                    It is an attempt to forge a
                                    holographic intellectual world
                                    where all is interconnected and
                                    reflected in every part. This is
                                    a mission to weave the golden
                                    thread of significance and meaning
                                    through every part of a culture-
                                    science and the arts and the
                                    spiritual are all unified into a
                                    system of
                                    concentric, interpenetrating
                                    rings.

                                    All this is primarily accomplished
                                    by using the language of music
                                    and mathematics as common
                                    universal symbolism (the "glass
                                    beads" are part of a symbolic
                                    physical
                                    aid that was once used
                                    for this purpose.)

                                    It is no wonder that the book
                                    places the first origins of the
                                    game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
                                    and Socratic ethics. No wonder
                                    that the League of Journeyers
                                    to the East also figure prominently
                                    in its development. To some
                                    extent the Game has been the
                                    goal of all sensitive and introspective
                                    individuals and groups down
                                    through the ages.

                                    All of this stands in stark contrast
                                    to our own Feuilletonistic Age
                                    where all knowledge, all culture,
                                    is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
                                    largely meaningless babble.

                                    The crisis that develops from
                                    this is that even if you accomplish
                                    this grand synthesis in some isolated
                                    ivory tower refuge of
                                    intellectual
                                    contemplatives- it isn't enough.

                                    It is necessary to reach out to the
                                    entire society once it is achieved
                                    in the same way that a Bodhisattva
                                    attempts to enlighten the rest
                                    of
                                    mankind instead of individually
                                    passing onto Nirvana. The entire
                                    society must be made whole and
                                    sacred and not just an isolated elite.

                                    This is the realization that comes
                                    even to the Magister Ludi, the
                                    Master of the Game.

                                    For the game to be ultimately
                                    meaningful we have to coach
                                    everyone to eventually become
                                    Masters."

                                    ************ ********* ********* ****

                                    Thus, another reason to justify religion!
                                    Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
                                    outflow principle) be accomplished without
                                    the religious strings attached? Not by
                                    Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
                                    to their membership donations or else
                                    they can lose
                                    initiations!

                                    Prometheus
                                  • etznab@aol.com
                                    Some time ago I took notice of the words purukh (Purush) and Prakrti (Prakrta). How they contained similar sounds. At the heart of explanations for
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Some time ago I took notice of the words
                                      "purukh" (Purush) and "Prakrti" (Prakrta).
                                      How they contained similar sounds.

                                      At the heart of explanations for creation
                                      and how "material" & "spiritual" coexist
                                      I found those two words. In Indian texts
                                      mostly.

                                      Both words begin by illustrating the con-
                                      sonants P + R. Prakrti, however, appears
                                      to have the Sanskrit root "kr", which IMO
                                      is connected with the ideas of action and
                                      karma. The "ti" part could be a "feminine"
                                      ending (I'm guessing).

                                      Both of those words are at the heart of
                                      creation according to certain teachings.
                                      They also contain the "letters" P + R +
                                      K (when you spell purush as purukh).

                                      Here are some etymologies that may,
                                      or may not help.

                                      prak - "Definitions: previously, before, first[ly]
                                      (Sanskrit).

                                      puru - "Definitions: 'much, many'." (Vedic)

                                      http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/vedol-4-X.html

                                      In the Vedas there is a Dawn Maiden
                                      by the name of Ushas, I believe.

                                      Ushas - "The lovely Hindu dawn maiden who
                                      sprung from the head of Dyaus. The twin sister
                                      of Nakt, or Ratri [the goddess of night] (Hindu
                                      Mythology). Associated spellings/words: usas
                                      ['shining; east'] (Sanskrit); uchanti ['shining']
                                      (Vedic); eos; aurora."

                                      Notice the word uchanti has a "c".

                                      The "c" in Purukh changing to "s" is not very
                                      uncommon. I've seen a number of cases where
                                      the "c" and "k" sounds evolve to "s".

                                      Viva La France! (Home of the Franks :)

                                      In some places the definition for "guru" means
                                      "dispeller of darkness". Now I wonder if that is
                                      connected to the idea of "light bearer"?

                                      Light and darkness are common symbols for
                                      good and evil. However, what does Purukh &
                                      Prakrta really symbolize? [BTW, the latter is
                                      connected with the gender that was once de-
                                      monized in the Bible. The feminine. Consider
                                      also how in many traditions the "Sat Guru" is
                                      (the vehicle of which, at least) is associated
                                      with the opposite, or "masculine" gender.]

                                      Is this really a very unique teaching? The idea
                                      that "God" is male & "Nature" is female? It is
                                      really quite common actually.

                                      In the Anurag Sagar it seemed that Kal Niranjan
                                      wanted to create a world or something. And here
                                      is what it said on the Sant Mat site:

                                      Fifth Shabda – Kal-Niranjan : Full name of the
                                      Negative Power, often shortened to Kal (q.v.).
                                      Niranjan means "beyond illusion," and is applied
                                      to Kal ("Time") because he is the creator of illusion.

                                      http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=24

                                      Kal, the creator of illusion, is Niranjan? Beyond
                                      illusion?

                                      Isn't that special :)

                                      Another name for Kal Niranjan on the site seems
                                      to be Dharam Rai. This being seems to be quite
                                      devotional to Sat Purush. One day, however, the
                                      being appears to say (these are in italics):

                                      "Oh, Sahaj, my brother – go and make this request
                                      to Sat Purush: I don't like this small place. Please
                                      give me a big kingdom. In my heart I have felt such
                                      love for Him! He should bless me with a big place.
                                      He should either give me the world of the gods, or
                                      else a separate world."

                                      http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25

                                      Sat Purush replies (also italics):

                                      After hearing the words of Sahaj, Sat Purush said this:

                                      "I am pleased with Dharam Rai; take this to your heart:
                                      I have given him the three Worlds, now go and tell him
                                      to develop the Void plane. Oh Sahaj, tell him to make
                                      his creation there."

                                      And at the bottom of the page it has a description for
                                      what is the void plane.

                                      "The Void Plane: The three worlds in their pre-existent
                                      state."

                                      http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25

                                      ***************************************************************

                                      Now I am wondering how old are these teachings, the
                                      story, whatever, in the Anurag Sagar? And how do I
                                      know they are the original, for one? And how do I know
                                      it is not the case of one person borrowing from another
                                      and making up their own version of things?

                                      Sant Mat and Eckankar both hearken back to Kabir
                                      when recounting the history of their teachings. And
                                      if Sant Mat was know earlier than the word - and the
                                      modern day - "Eckankar", Where did Sant Mat come
                                      from? Where did Kabir get his teachings? For that
                                      matter.

                                      This is a Wikipedia quote:

                                      The Sant Mat movement was not homogeneous, and
                                      consisted mostly of the Sants' own socio-religious
                                      attitudes which were based on bhakti (devotion) as
                                      described a thousand years earlier in the Bhagavad
                                      Gita.[3] Sharing as few conventions with each other as
                                      with the followers of the traditions they challenged, the
                                      Sants appear more as a diverse collection of spiritual
                                      personalities than a specific religious tradition, although
                                      they acknowledged a common spiritual root.[4]

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sant_Mat

                                      Whether true or not, that gave me the impression of
                                      so many people scattered around the area each with
                                      their own particular form of tradition.

                                      Here is a page with summary for the philosophy of
                                      Kabir.

                                      "The basic religious principles he espoused are simple.
                                      According to Kabir, all life is an interplay of two spiritual
                                      principles. One is the personal soul (Jivatma) and the
                                      other is God (Paramatma). It is Kabir's view that salvation
                                      is the process of bringing into union these two divine
                                      principles."

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir

                                      The bringing into union? Nanak appears to suggest the
                                      contact with Nam. And Radha Soami has the sound
                                      current before spiritual liberation. And before the sound
                                      current, has contact with a living master. Eckankar also
                                      appears to echo the Sat Guru, Shabda & Jivan Mukti
                                      paradigm (notice the word "jiva" in Jivan Mukti).

                                      I'm trying to spell out the "apparent" duality being here
                                      described in symbolic terms. For example, there are
                                      the terms "Atma" and "Jivatma". One appears to mean
                                      the "spiritual" principle of soul and the other the "living"
                                      principle (that tied to matter). Mystic Judaism and even
                                      Islam have different kinds of "souls", too. The "animal"
                                      soul, etc.

                                      What is the "common root" in all of this? Whatever it is
                                      there appear to be dozens of ways (and religions) trying
                                      to explain it. Now it so happens there are a number of
                                      different paths (Eckankar included?) which make seem
                                      as though the prerequisite for spiritual liberation means
                                      joining their particular group? Accepting their particular
                                      "Living Master" (prerequisite meaning what you need to
                                      do first)? Did I spell that right?

                                      Something is wrong with this picture if several different
                                      paths and religions have it that their version is the true
                                      version and all the others are somehow less. Offshoots,
                                      etc.

                                      This post is just a long-winded way of saying I doubt it
                                      that all appear to have a common root. Because if they
                                      did then somebody would have discovered it by now &
                                      painted a picture of the "plant" that has since evolved.
                                      Instead I see a whole orchard of "fruit trees" and even
                                      nobody is actually certain it was an "apple tree" in the
                                      Garden of Eden.

                                      If we had the "root" then wouldn't we have the truth?

                                      Etznab















                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: etznab@...
                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 4:04 pm
                                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
                                      Thinking?

                                       








                                      I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.

                                      And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.



                                      Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked

                                      similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I

                                      believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I

                                      saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed

                                      over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks

                                      similar in some ways, but different.



                                      http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html



                                      Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and

                                      Kapila.



                                      In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh

                                      are mentioned here.



                                      http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html



                                      It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak

                                      Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)



                                      The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the

                                      teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number

                                      of similarities. IMO.



                                      The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are

                                      curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya

                                      philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show

                                      the order and sequence of creation.)



                                      The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).



                                      It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for

                                      Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by

                                      Kabir.



                                      The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.



                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya



                                      The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.



                                      http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23



                                      The apparent tendency in both systems seems

                                      to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".



                                      From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:



                                      "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:

                                      When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was

                                      incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the

                                      body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"



                                      http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23



                                      I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described

                                      as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's

                                      story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,

                                      where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".



                                      IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are

                                      the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths

                                      literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas

                                      that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal

                                      organized religious interpretations which may be far,

                                      far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-

                                      come disconnected from the true origins of their path

                                      appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"

                                      leading the "blind".



                                      As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!



                                      See what I mean? :)



                                      For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)

                                      is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To

                                      look at where they came from & how the history evolved.



                                      Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and

                                      clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have

                                      visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't

                                      have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths

                                      except when they are taken literally and people don't see

                                      the difference between fiction and fact.



                                      Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can

                                      the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell

                                      from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?



                                      I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from

                                      the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and

                                      keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same

                                      teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the

                                      lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?



                                      Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-

                                      ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?



                                      However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these

                                      stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.

                                      Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of

                                      them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those

                                      sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be

                                      they members of a particular religion or not - often have

                                      to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms

                                      of "torture" for speaking their minds.



                                      Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-

                                      pool and everything goes down the drain? :)



                                      Etznab



                                      -----Original Message-----

                                      From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>

                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                                      Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am

                                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

                                      Thinking?



                                       



                                      From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one

                                      (at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.

                                       

                                      I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did

                                      (do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,

                                      these two seemed to be on the same page,

                                      so to speak.

                                       

                                      Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?

                                       

                                      It is all poetry.

                                       

                                      Thanks for the link.

                                       

                                      Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where

                                      Kabir got this information.

                                       

                                      Do you know?  



                                      --- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:



                                      From: etznab@... <etznab@...>

                                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

                                      Thinking?

                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                                      Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM



                                       



                                      That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

                                      supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to

                                      connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

                                      all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.



                                      R.T.



                                      Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know

                                      about Kal Niranjan, etc.



                                      Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas

                                      issued from Sat Purush.



                                      "When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-

                                      Niranjan was incarnated."



                                      http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&

                                      book=4817& page=23



                                      This page tells about it. And the links go to how the

                                      lower worlds were created.



                                      I doubt that is all to be taken literally.



                                      Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on

                                      Eckankar?



                                      "No written instructions had been put

                                      down for the

                                      followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the

                                      sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,

                                      took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the

                                      ancient science of Soul Travel."



                                      [Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1

                                      (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,

                                      p. 59]



                                      And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than

                                      Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly

                                      gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).



                                      Etznab



                                      -----Original Message-----

                                      From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>

                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                                      Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm

                                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

                                      Thinking?



                                       



                                      Hi there!

                                       

                                      The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!

                                       

                                      Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published

                                      short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with

                                      my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my

                                      idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very

                                      point.

                                       

                                      I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's

                                      son,

                                      but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in

                                      the margins

                                      of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in

                                      order

                                      to have any kind

                                      of relationship with Spirit.

                                       

                                      And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 

                                      Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 

                                       

                                      How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

                                       

                                      And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

                                       

                                      It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.

                                       

                                      That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

                                      supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 

                                      connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

                                      all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

                                       

                                      And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"

                                      throughout history.

                                       

                                      Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

                                       

                                      I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,

                                      say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all

                                      psychologically open to auto-suggestion.

                                       

                                      If things go well, it is because of Harold. If

                                      not, it is because

                                      the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 

                                       

                                      Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

                                       

                                      Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

                                       

                                      Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.

                                       

                                      Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"

                                      out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the

                                      unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering

                                      BECAUSE of Eckankar!

                                       

                                      They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 

                                      Their little world of "Super Normal" people.

                                       

                                      With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"

                                      are in Eckankar.

                                       

                                      What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"

                                      or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !

                                       

                                      What could be worse than that? 

                                       

                                      Or being "demoted" as a person in any

                                      way?

                                       

                                      They give all their power to the heirarchy.

                                       

                                      They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,

                                      but it is psychological.

                                       

                                      Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 

                                       

                                      The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.

                                       

                                      But you knew that!

                                       

                                       

                                       

                                               

                                       

                                             



                                      --- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

                                      wrote:



                                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

                                      Subject:

                                      [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?

                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                                      Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM



                                       



                                      Hello All,

                                      Thanks for sharing your

                                      comments and the info

                                      about these books!



                                      As far as "transcending

                                      religion" it seems that this

                                      is what we thought we were

                                      doing when we joined the

                                      "path" of Eckankar way back

                                      when.



                                      Early on, Eckankar seemed

                                      to have a certain mystique

                                      about it. The reality, now,

                                      is that it was never what we

                                      imagined or desired. This

                                      PT/HK consciousness is based

                                      upon delusions, lies, and

                                      manipulations frozen

                                      in time as meaningless and

                                      imagined experiences and

                                      dreams via Klemp's over-

                                      simplified and mind

                                      numbing

                                      hypnotic message. This is

                                      the "real" reason people fall

                                      asleep during his talks! And,

                                      there's No spiritual meat

                                      (protein)!



                                      The Eckankar message is

                                      merely a redundancy and

                                      regurgitation of empty 2nd

                                      and 4th Plane thoughts and

                                      words.



                                      PT's Eckankar is a New Age/

                                      Westernized rewrite of the



                                      Eastern thoughts and dogmas

                                      once borrowed and plagiarized

                                      (compiled) from Sant Mat

                                      religions (etc.), and from

                                      more knowledgeable/

                                      enlightened people by

                                      the trickster Twitchell.



                                      HK's EK "path" has not only

                                      become Christianized, but

                                      has also been exposed as

                                      just another "Feel Good"

                                      religious sect that preaches

                                      one thing and does another!

                                      It's a Codependent scam!



                                      Thus, the Klemps' egos

                                      are feeling pretty good

                                      right now and the "trickle-

                                      down effect" is still sustaining

                                      their EK followers/sheep/

                                      chickens in the same ways

                                      as other religions work

                                      their

                                      magic on the numb, dumb,

                                      fearful, and superstitious

                                      masses.



                                      Still, for Eckists who think

                                      they can see beyond the

                                      veil/void it's amazing to

                                      see that they are quite

                                      incapable of true change

                                      and of discovering the

                                      real path of TRUTH, and

                                      of experiencing the art

                                      of the obvious.



                                      Truth has escaped these

                                      Eckists and they will forever

                                      remain a pawn of the KAL

                                      and under Klemp's trance

                                      of providing "sales service."



                                      This, of course, benefits HK's

                                      selfish motives, and, on the

                                      other hand, it helps to give

                                      Eckists a "higher" purpose.

                                      This is why Klemp feels he

                                      is doing no harm since it

                                      provides of service for lost

                                      Souls until they become advanced

                                      enough to realize they don't

                                      need a middleman.



                                      However, the "catch" lies

                                      within the promises made

                                      and the innate desire of

                                      soul to "Know" God and to

                                      return Home again. Eckankar

                                      manipulates this desire

                                      with

                                      "initiations" that are turned

                                      into a KAL "Trap/Test."



                                      However, Not Desiring Initiations

                                      (via a pure heart) is another

                                      trap/test that has merely been

                                      disguised while the "desire"

                                      remains hidden from outer

                                      sight. Thus, it seems to be

                                      okay to "imagine" (and still

                                      desire)

                                      higher initiations on

                                      the "INNER" via the ruse of

                                      needing a Mahanta for more

                                      and more of these fake initiations

                                      in order to expand consciousness

                                      for more and more spiritual

                                      progress.



                                      Eckists are chasing their tails

                                      via Twitchell's and Klemp's

                                      rendition of circular logic and

                                      thinking. How can Self-Mastery

                                      and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished

                                      in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp

                                      is training Eckists to become

                                      more and more Codependent

                                      upon the Mahanta and their

                                      desires and attachments?



                                      Look at the ECK stories... they

                                      all require the intercession and

                                      help of the Mahanta. Eckists,

                                      via

                                      self-hypnosis and programming,

                                      (attachment) are being taught

                                      to call upon the Mahanta for

                                      anything and everything.. . but

                                      where is Soul and where is the

                                      ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because

                                      one mouthes certain "charged"

                                      4th Plane words or thinks he/

                                      she is "detached" doesn't make



                                      it so!



                                      What's interesting is that these

                                      two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)

                                      don't require money in order

                                      to maintain (outer and Inner

                                      initiations) a higher consciousness. ..

                                      but Klemp does! Initiations aren't

                                      needed! This is what structured

                                      (Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in

                                      order to control groups of people.

                                      I'm amazed that Eckists can't or

                                      don't want to see the correlation

                                      and connect-the- dots.



                                      Why can't or won't Eckists connect-

                                      the-dots? It probably has to do

                                      with their feelings of being "Superior

                                      Normal" and the delusion that

                                      gives them "all the answers" in

                                      order to alleviate their

                                      doubts

                                      and fears. The ego makes a better

                                      servant than it does a master,

                                      but with "initiations" and a "RESA

                                      hierarchy" Eckists can't separate

                                      ego from Soul.



                                      Thus, when "Starting To Get It"

                                      (a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)

                                      writes what she did, in the 09/2009

                                      H.I.

                                      Letter, one has to wonder...

                                      What has Klemp been teaching

                                      his followers since he's been

                                      in charge?



                                      Prometheus



                                      realbizarretarzs wrote:



                                      So true. I really enjoyed your

                                      experiment.



                                      I used to do that sort of stuff

                                      until it became more sad than

                                      amusing.



                                      Also, a while back, I forgot

                                      to mention the books of

                                      Alan Watts, starting with

                                      "The Way of Zen" and

                                      "The Wisdom of Insecurity".



                                      The second title, of course,

                                      is a paradox, but one that

                                      makes sense without having

                                      to go too far into the book

                                      to see what he is talking about.



                                      One doesn't have to be necessarily

                                      into Zen or even

                                      Buddhism to

                                      understand where he was coming

                                      from.



                                      His books are very easy to read

                                      and are somewhat humorous.



                                      Interestingly, he obtained

                                      a master's degree in theology

                                      and "divinity" but went on to

                                      write twenty to thirty books

                                      on Zen and Indian and

                                      Chinese

                                      philosophies, and the psychology

                                      of religion, and the importance

                                      of mysticism insofar as the

                                      individual transcending man-

                                      made religion.



                                      whitemoby wrote:



                                      Truth can never by systemized,

                                      no matter how eloquently.



                                      Moby



                                      Rebazar Tarzs wrote:



                                      In the story, Joseph Knecht,

                                      after following instructions

                                      to the letter, but not losing

                                      his intuition, begins to question

                                      everything, and comes to

                                      see "Castilia" (or, insert your

                                      favorite or not-so-favorite

                                      community Utopia) as a kind

                                      of ivory tower, oblivious to

                                      real life, and thus, reality.



                                      He begins to realize that,

                                      after many years, and

                                      many

                                      relationships, Castilia is a

                                      self-protected society that

                                      does little, if anything, for

                                      the world outside its borders,

                                      and is burderned by a hierarchy

                                      of personalities and games

                                      people play.



                                      I won't reveal any more than

                                      this, in

                                      case someone is

                                      currently reading "Magister

                                      Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"

                                      but I will say this - throughout

                                      the whole story, Bruce Willis

                                      is dead.



                                      What?!?



                                      No, actually, the truth seeker,

                                      Knecht (which, in German,

                                      means servant and/or knight)

                                      (or so the Germans would have

                                      us believe) is, to the dumb-

                                      foundment of his "superiors",

                                      really looking for truth.



                                      No substitutes.



                                      I hope I didn't give away too

                                      much, as the book is almost

                                      600 pages long, but, actually,

                                      I haven't, because there is

                                      so much truth in the story

                                      that everytime I re-read it,

                                      I realize something new.



                                      I know we used to say that

                                      about certain

                                      ECK books

                                      (before Harold) but the

                                      stuff that Paul took from

                                      others is timeless as well.



                                      What was kind of amusing

                                      is that when I read the book

                                      the first time, Darwin was

                                      the "Master."



                                      One of the first main characters



                                      in the story is the "Music Master."



                                      prometheus wrote:



                                      Here's a review from Amazon.com

                                      of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:



                                      "What is the Glass Bead Game?

                                      It is no less than the highest

                                      reason that an entire future

                                      civilization exists. It is the

                                      grand and ongoing synthesis

                                      of all knowledge into a unified,

                                      integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)



                                      It is an attempt to forge a

                                      holographic intellectual world

                                      where all is interconnected and

                                      reflected in every part. This is

                                      a mission to weave the golden

                                      thread of significance and meaning

                                      through every part of a culture-

                                      science and the arts and the

                                      spiritual are all unified into a

                                      system of

                                      concentric, interpenetrating

                                      rings.



                                      All this is primarily accomplished

                                      by using the language of music

                                      and mathematics as common

                                      universal symbolism (the "glass

                                      beads" are part of a symbolic

                                      physical

                                      aid that was once used

                                      for this purpose.)



                                      It is no wonder that the book

                                      places the first origins of the

                                      game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,

                                      and Socratic ethics. No wonder

                                      that the League of Journeyers

                                      to the East also figure prominently

                                      in its development. To some

                                      extent the Game has been the

                                      goal of all sensitive and introspective

                                      individuals and groups down

                                      through the ages.



                                      All of this stands in stark contrast

                                      to our own Feuilletonistic Age

                                      where all knowledge, all culture,

                                      is unsynthesized, chaotic, and

                                      largely meaningless babble.



                                      The crisis that develops from

                                      this is that even if you accomplish

                                      this grand synthesis in some isolated

                                      ivory tower refuge of

                                      intellectual

                                      contemplatives- it isn't enough.



                                      It is necessary to reach out to the

                                      entire society once it is achieved

                                      in the same way that a Bodhisattva

                                      attempts to enlighten the rest

                                      of

                                      mankind instead of individually

                                      passing onto Nirvana. The entire

                                      society must be made whole and

                                      sacred and not just an isolated elite.



                                      This is the realization that comes

                                      even to the Magister Ludi, the

                                      Master of the Game.



                                      For the game to be ultimately

                                      meaningful we have to coach

                                      everyone to eventually become

                                      Masters."



                                      ************ ********* ********* ****



                                      Thus, another reason to justify religion!

                                      Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/

                                      outflow principle) be accomplished without

                                      the religious strings attached? Not by

                                      Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached

                                      to their membership donations or else

                                      they can lose

                                      initiations!



                                      Prometheus
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hello Etznab and All, I m wondering why or if Eckists have ever noticed that their religion is dualistic versus non-dualistic. And, have Eckists ever pondered
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Oct 17, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello Etznab and All,
                                        I'm wondering why or if Eckists
                                        have ever noticed that their religion
                                        is dualistic versus non-dualistic.
                                        And, have Eckists ever pondered
                                        or contemplated on the differences
                                        between the two?

                                        With Klemp everything is black or
                                        white, pos. or neg., outer or inner,
                                        right or wrong, passion or virtue,
                                        low versus high.

                                        Myself... I don't see that these
                                        opposites have anything to do
                                        with the Divine. It's more about
                                        us and how religions have interpreted
                                        the Divine in order to analyze
                                        and explain or understand IT.


                                        Prometheus



                                        etznab wrote:


                                        I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.
                                        And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

                                        Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked
                                        similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I
                                        believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I
                                        saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed
                                        over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks
                                        similar in some ways, but different.

                                        http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html

                                        Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and
                                        Kapila.

                                        In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh
                                        are mentioned here.

                                        http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html

                                        It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak
                                        Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

                                        The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the
                                        teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number
                                        of similarities. IMO.

                                        The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are
                                        curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya
                                        philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show
                                        the order and sequence of creation.)

                                        The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

                                        It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for
                                        Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by
                                        Kabir.

                                        The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.

                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

                                        The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.

                                        http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                        The apparent tendency in both systems seems
                                        to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

                                        From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

                                        "With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:
                                        When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was
                                        incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the
                                        body of Sat Purush â€" that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"

                                        http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

                                        I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described
                                        as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's
                                        story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,
                                        where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

                                        IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are
                                        the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths
                                        literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas
                                        that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal
                                        organized religious interpretations which may be far,
                                        far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-
                                        come disconnected from the true origins of their path
                                        appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"
                                        leading the "blind".

                                        As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

                                        See what I mean? :)

                                        For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)
                                        is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To
                                        look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

                                        Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and
                                        clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have
                                        visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't
                                        have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths
                                        except when they are taken literally and people don't see
                                        the difference between fiction and fact.

                                        Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can
                                        the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell
                                        from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

                                        I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from
                                        the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and
                                        keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same
                                        teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the
                                        lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

                                        Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-
                                        ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

                                        However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these
                                        stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.
                                        Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of
                                        them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those
                                        sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be
                                        they members of a particular religion or not - often have
                                        to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms
                                        of "torture" for speaking their minds.

                                        Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-
                                        pool and everything goes down the drain? :)

                                        Etznab
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