Re: ZOHAR AND SEPHER more Eck Fiction by Twitchell
- I agree with all you say here, mish. Haven't you noticed the very bizarre interpretations HK provides on dreams?
--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
> I found a message, commenting on an old thread from this message board in my email. I don't know who this "john" is or why he was compelled to send me a private email?? I'm not even sure what he is disagreeing about? But his comments are the same old rhetoric that many eckists have been brainwashed to mumble about dreams and dreaming.
> He is trying to explain the importance of dreams and obviously thinks that eckists have the inside tract on dreams and deciphering them. Well, hello, most of us do dream and dream on a regular basis. WHAT I DISAGREE WITH john's defense of needing to remember dreams and waking up during the night to write them down is this. . . Dreams are only one part or segment of our lives . . . I do agree they are important . . . but the heavy emphasis on dreams takes the dreamer out of the "in real life" living . . . It is not necessary to remember all dreams so I think it is a good idea to just go to sleep and not worry about what one dreams . . . if it is important, trust me, you will remember it when you wake up.
> Also, this practice of writing down dreams during the night's sleep activity impedes the natural flow of dreaming . . . so I would be concerned that a message, an important message, could be lost. And the dreamer would instead substitute and use his imagination to create his own dream symbols and not let Spirit deliver what Spirit so divinely is trying to convey to the dreamer.
> Important dreams do not need wild interpretations because they are usually direct and straight forward. Looking for signs and symbols just misleads one down a wrong path. Valuable time is wasted . . . but this is what eckankar does . . . it wastes the chelas' time!
> Yes, dreams can give warnings or help one understand things better but trying to capture every dream one dreams in a night time and remembering it is like collecting wheat and leaving the chafe with it. Rather than doing all that, it is important to get a good night's sleep, enjoy one's dreams peacefully and not worry about jarring oneself awake to record them . . . for fear of forgetting . . . this is just too nutty!
> For the record, I dream and I utilize my dreams but I don't stress myself about remembering them . . . I do remember the ones that really stand out . . . and there is "no trick" in having to understand them unless you're the type of individual that needs to have a hammer hit you between your eyes in order to get your attention!! LOL!
> Here's the message from john whoever he is . . .
> Thursday, October 1, 2009 9:52 PM
> From: "johnwes2789"
> To: "mishmisha9"
> I disagree. Dreams are very important to us and guide me in my everyday life. The trick is to understand what they mean. Very often we can not take dreams literally but many images are symbolic. For example driving in my car may symbolize my astral, causal, etheric or soul body. Flying usually symbolizes me soul body. The reason we should write our dreams as soon as we can remember them is because if we wait until morning, we will have forgotten them and it will be too late. The dream is gone and most likely the spiritual message is lost too.
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@> wrote:
> > Hi, Freefrom and All!
> > Good posts on this topic. Freefrom, you have really stated it
> > succinctly and zoned in on the key reasons people are drawn into
> > such deceptions as in Eckankar!
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
> > <eckchains@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > LOL Yes, I agree. It's the old, it's too absurd to be true, so
> > > therefore it must be true! How could someone have made all of this
> > > stuff up? No one would be so dishonest as to just make all of this
> > > stuff up, right? Wrong. Let's face it, the ability to lie and
> > act "as if" is a very human trait.
> > Mish: It's called being creative and imaginative! LOL! Dreams are
> > real, etc. Dreams can be real, but yet we must discern and
> > discriminate in figuring out what is garbage and what is not.
> > Eckists seem to want to "live" their dreams, and will make decisions
> > solely based on what they "perceive" on the inner. Well, one must be
> > careful here . . .
> > The problem with falling for dishonest people's spills is that we
> > want to believe that people are truthful and honest at heart and
> > would not be out to take advantage of us or cause us harm. A person
> > like PT probably thought that his lies would not be that harmful
> > (criminal) to those he duped, so why not? Big lie vs. little lie;
> > big harm vs. little harm--and of course, if people are dumb/foolish
> > enough to believe this crap, well why not--it is the listener's
> > responsibility to not be deceived, etc.
> > Many eckists justify continuing with the false teachings of eckankar
> > because they feel that they are benefiting from the teachings,
> > regardless of the lies and deceptions. How often do we hear that a
> > person learned so many valuable things while in eckankar; therefore,
> > it is just fine to continue misleading individuals? the end
> > justifies the means--but isn't this exactly the way people are
> > manipulated and controlled? This is what keeps eckists in the org!
> > They settle for imperfection while searching for spiritual truths
> > and enlightenment--but the imperfections actually doom attaining the
> > goal! How can one find spiritual truth when one is basing it on lies?
> > I think Harold Klemp uses all of the above to continue the lies and
> > deceptions. And many eckists believe that Harold lives a humble
> > life, and fail to realize that he is reaping the wealth with a very
> > nicely secured bank account and investments, and I'm sure he does
> > live much better than he suggests in his talks. Why does he do this?
> > To deceive and to encourage his chelas to live solely for the
> > mahanta in order to continue to give and give! Some individuals
> > believe that possessing the material or living too comfortably gets
> > in the way of spiritual growth--this seems to be taught in eckankar.
> > The poorer you are, the more evolved you are?? This is still another lie aimed at duping individuals to stay on the path. Picture Harold as a Clark Kent type who turns into Superman. Underneath those
> > polyester suits and cheap ties, there is a different animal in
> > different clothes. Of course, I don't mean that he is a "good"
> > superman! : )
> > Freefrom: "It takes guts and courage to be honest."
> > Mish: You know I think we BELIEVE "it takes guts and courage to be
> > honest." But in truth, it is the much easier road to take! 1.
> > Standing up and admitting a mistake often surprises people and they
> > appreciate the honesty, so it is the best way to diffuse a
> > misunderstanding or an error in behavior, etc. 2. For myself, I feel
> > much better being honest than trying to live a lie!
> > Freefrom: "Those who stay with eckankar are still stuck in the herd
> > mentality, like sheep. It's a kind of self-deception and false
> > security."
> > Mish: Looking for security in our beliefs or even trying to find a
> > base for our spiritual beliefs, yes, we can end up with the "herd
> > mentality." And in eckankar, if you weren't a sheep to begin with,
> > you become exactly that with all the fears and controls that keep
> > chelas manipulated and trapped in the org! One gets in so deep that
> > one fears leaving, and will fight to the bitter end to hold onto the
> > brass ring! : )
> > Prometheus: "On the other hand, Twitch could have been playing with
> > us and did this as a game of sorts. Twitch was clever and
> > egotistical, and this might have been his way of having the last
> > laugh on those followers and critics who were more educated
> > (Ph.Ds)."
> > Mish: Yes, I agree that PT was having good sport with people and
> > that fooling people fed his ego! He found a dishonest way to dupe
> > people and make a living, while pretending to be a great spiritual
> > leader! I suppose he did believe some of it, because in the
> > beginning he was a seeker himself, however, he evolved into a
> > monster when he realized what he could do with his made up religion.
> > He chose the dark side of the force, so to speak! : )
> > Leigh wrote: "So often in the past six years
> > I've seen people expressing the view that a lot of the junk was
> > consciously engineered. I think this gives the people we're
> > talking about WAY too much credit for being clever. I think far more
> > often (particularly when you look at the volume of stuff) it's a
> > case of someone spitting out something their mind had thrown up at
> > them to experience. This makes them a double dupe, really. First
> > they cram their mind full of stuff, then it kicks it back to them as
> > best it can, and THEN they believe it, as is, without any critical
> > review !"
> > Mish: I agree with Leigh here as well. I believe that many
> > individuals are using various resources such as self-publising
> > books, setting up websites, doing workshops and seminars to "sell"
> > junk to the public. It's all around us more than ever today with the
> > fast speed of communications! Many people are buying into all kinds
> > of stuff, conspiracy theories, mind control, healings, etc. Cram
> > enough into your mind as Leigh states and critical thinking goes out
> > the door. We lose our talent to discriminate truth from fiction.
> > Anyway, very good discussions and comments. Thanks everyone!
> > Mish