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Re: ZOHAR AND SEPHER more Eck Fiction by Twitchell

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  • mishmisha9
    I found a message, commenting on an old thread from this message board in my email. I don t know who this john is or why he was compelled to send me a
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 2, 2009
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      I found a message, commenting on an old thread from this message board in my email. I don't know who this "john" is or why he was compelled to send me a private email?? I'm not even sure what he is disagreeing about? But his comments are the same old rhetoric that many eckists have been brainwashed to mumble about dreams and dreaming.

      He is trying to explain the importance of dreams and obviously thinks that eckists have the inside tract on dreams and deciphering them. Well, hello, most of us do dream and dream on a regular basis. WHAT I DISAGREE WITH john's defense of needing to remember dreams and waking up during the night to write them down is this. . . Dreams are only one part or segment of our lives . . . I do agree they are important . . . but the heavy emphasis on dreams takes the dreamer out of the "in real life" living . . . It is not necessary to remember all dreams so I think it is a good idea to just go to sleep and not worry about what one dreams . . . if it is important, trust me, you will remember it when you wake up.

      Also, this practice of writing down dreams during the night's sleep activity impedes the natural flow of dreaming . . . so I would be concerned that a message, an important message, could be lost. And the dreamer would instead substitute and use his imagination to create his own dream symbols and not let Spirit deliver what Spirit so divinely is trying to convey to the dreamer.

      Important dreams do not need wild interpretations because they are usually direct and straight forward. Looking for signs and symbols just misleads one down a wrong path. Valuable time is wasted . . . but this is what eckankar does . . . it wastes the chelas' time!

      Yes, dreams can give warnings or help one understand things better but trying to capture every dream one dreams in a night time and remembering it is like collecting wheat and leaving the chafe with it. Rather than doing all that, it is important to get a good night's sleep, enjoy one's dreams peacefully and not worry about jarring oneself awake to record them . . . for fear of forgetting . . . this is just too nutty!

      For the record, I dream and I utilize my dreams but I don't stress myself about remembering them . . . I do remember the ones that really stand out . . . and there is "no trick" in having to understand them unless you're the type of individual that needs to have a hammer hit you between your eyes in order to get your attention!! LOL!

      Here's the message from john whoever he is . . .

      Thursday, October 1, 2009 9:52 PM
      From: "johnwes2789"
      To: "mishmisha9"
      I disagree. Dreams are very important to us and guide me in my everyday life. The trick is to understand what they mean. Very often we can not take dreams literally but many images are symbolic. For example driving in my car may symbolize my astral, causal, etheric or soul body. Flying usually symbolizes me soul body. The reason we should write our dreams as soon as we can remember them is because if we wait until morning, we will have forgotten them and it will be too late. The dream is gone and most likely the spiritual message is lost too.

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi, Freefrom and All!
      >
      > Good posts on this topic. Freefrom, you have really stated it
      > succinctly and zoned in on the key reasons people are drawn into
      > such deceptions as in Eckankar!
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
      > <eckchains@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > LOL Yes, I agree. It's the old, it's too absurd to be true, so
      > > therefore it must be true! How could someone have made all of this
      > > stuff up? No one would be so dishonest as to just make all of this
      > > stuff up, right? Wrong. Let's face it, the ability to lie and
      > act "as if" is a very human trait.
      >
      > Mish: It's called being creative and imaginative! LOL! Dreams are
      > real, etc. Dreams can be real, but yet we must discern and
      > discriminate in figuring out what is garbage and what is not.
      > Eckists seem to want to "live" their dreams, and will make decisions
      > solely based on what they "perceive" on the inner. Well, one must be
      > careful here . . .
      > The problem with falling for dishonest people's spills is that we
      > want to believe that people are truthful and honest at heart and
      > would not be out to take advantage of us or cause us harm. A person
      > like PT probably thought that his lies would not be that harmful
      > (criminal) to those he duped, so why not? Big lie vs. little lie;
      > big harm vs. little harm--and of course, if people are dumb/foolish
      > enough to believe this crap, well why not--it is the listener's
      > responsibility to not be deceived, etc.
      >
      > Many eckists justify continuing with the false teachings of eckankar
      > because they feel that they are benefiting from the teachings,
      > regardless of the lies and deceptions. How often do we hear that a
      > person learned so many valuable things while in eckankar; therefore,
      > it is just fine to continue misleading individuals? the end
      > justifies the means--but isn't this exactly the way people are
      > manipulated and controlled? This is what keeps eckists in the org!
      > They settle for imperfection while searching for spiritual truths
      > and enlightenment--but the imperfections actually doom attaining the
      > goal! How can one find spiritual truth when one is basing it on lies?
      >
      > I think Harold Klemp uses all of the above to continue the lies and
      > deceptions. And many eckists believe that Harold lives a humble
      > life, and fail to realize that he is reaping the wealth with a very
      > nicely secured bank account and investments, and I'm sure he does
      > live much better than he suggests in his talks. Why does he do this?
      > To deceive and to encourage his chelas to live solely for the
      > mahanta in order to continue to give and give! Some individuals
      > believe that possessing the material or living too comfortably gets
      > in the way of spiritual growth--this seems to be taught in eckankar.
      > The poorer you are, the more evolved you are?? This is still another lie aimed at duping individuals to stay on the path. Picture Harold as a Clark Kent type who turns into Superman. Underneath those
      > polyester suits and cheap ties, there is a different animal in
      > different clothes. Of course, I don't mean that he is a "good"
      > superman! : )
      >
      >
      > Freefrom: "It takes guts and courage to be honest."
      >
      > Mish: You know I think we BELIEVE "it takes guts and courage to be
      > honest." But in truth, it is the much easier road to take! 1.
      > Standing up and admitting a mistake often surprises people and they
      > appreciate the honesty, so it is the best way to diffuse a
      > misunderstanding or an error in behavior, etc. 2. For myself, I feel
      > much better being honest than trying to live a lie!
      >
      > Freefrom: "Those who stay with eckankar are still stuck in the herd
      > mentality, like sheep. It's a kind of self-deception and false
      > security."
      >
      > Mish: Looking for security in our beliefs or even trying to find a
      > base for our spiritual beliefs, yes, we can end up with the "herd
      > mentality." And in eckankar, if you weren't a sheep to begin with,
      > you become exactly that with all the fears and controls that keep
      > chelas manipulated and trapped in the org! One gets in so deep that
      > one fears leaving, and will fight to the bitter end to hold onto the
      > brass ring! : )
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Prometheus: "On the other hand, Twitch could have been playing with
      > us and did this as a game of sorts. Twitch was clever and
      > egotistical, and this might have been his way of having the last
      > laugh on those followers and critics who were more educated
      > (Ph.Ds)."
      >
      >
      > Mish: Yes, I agree that PT was having good sport with people and
      > that fooling people fed his ego! He found a dishonest way to dupe
      > people and make a living, while pretending to be a great spiritual
      > leader! I suppose he did believe some of it, because in the
      > beginning he was a seeker himself, however, he evolved into a
      > monster when he realized what he could do with his made up religion.
      > He chose the dark side of the force, so to speak! : )
      >
      >
      > Leigh wrote: "So often in the past six years
      > I've seen people expressing the view that a lot of the junk was
      > consciously engineered. I think this gives the people we're
      > talking about WAY too much credit for being clever. I think far more
      > often (particularly when you look at the volume of stuff) it's a
      > case of someone spitting out something their mind had thrown up at
      > them to experience. This makes them a double dupe, really. First
      > they cram their mind full of stuff, then it kicks it back to them as
      > best it can, and THEN they believe it, as is, without any critical
      > review !"
      >
      > Mish: I agree with Leigh here as well. I believe that many
      > individuals are using various resources such as self-publising
      > books, setting up websites, doing workshops and seminars to "sell"
      > junk to the public. It's all around us more than ever today with the
      > fast speed of communications! Many people are buying into all kinds
      > of stuff, conspiracy theories, mind control, healings, etc. Cram
      > enough into your mind as Leigh states and critical thinking goes out
      > the door. We lose our talent to discriminate truth from fiction.
      >
      > Anyway, very good discussions and comments. Thanks everyone!
      >
      > Mish
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Mish and All, Twitchell uses these Qabbala terms to create Space Invaders in this century! It seems that Twitchell took these two terms, ZOHAR and
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 3, 2009
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        Hello Mish and All,
        Twitchell uses these Qabbala terms
        to create Space Invaders in this century!

        It seems that Twitchell took these two
        terms, ZOHAR and SEPHER, from Qabbalism
        and then did his EK tweaking or rewrite
        for it to mean whatever he wanted. In
        this case it's to create a new root race
        of Space Aliens... for the 21st Century!

        "According to Eliphas Levi, the three
        greatest books of Qabbalism are the
        Sepher Yetzirah, The Book of Formation;
        the Sepher ha Zohar, The Book of Splendor;
        and the Apocalypse, The Book of Revelation.
        The dates of the writing of these books
        are by no means thoroughly established.
        Qabbalists declare that the Sepher Yetzirah
        was written by Abraham. Although it is
        by far the oldest of the Qabbalistic books,
        it was probably from the pen of the Rabbi
        Akiba, A.D. 120. - Manly P. Hall, The Secret
        Teachings of All Ages (1928)"

        "SEPHER. The ECK Master who will be responsible
        for the spiritual welfare of the ZOHAR, the
        root race who will colonize the earth after the
        catastrophe in the twenty-first and twenty-
        second centuries." [EK Lexicon, pgs. 186-187]

        "ZOHAR, the. A future ROOT RACE who will
        come from a far distant planet to colonize
        the world after the destruction in the twenty-
        first and twenty-second centuries, BUT they
        will fail and after several centuries will withdraw."
        [EK Lexicon, pg. 243]

        One might ask where Twit got the idea for
        using this Qabbala info. Well, since PT studied
        and plagiarized from "The Path of the Masters"
        in order to help create Eckankar it would seem
        that this book would be a source for him. And,
        it just so happens that Zohar - Book of Splendor
        and the Sepher and the ten Sephiroth or Splendors
        of the Infinite One are listed here.

        It's really too bad that EKists don't read, study,
        research, and question the info listed in Klemp's
        EK Lexicon and compare that to Twitchell's EK
        Dictionary. Basically, there's just too much crap
        of Twitchell's to go through and change. Although,
        one has to wonder why Klemp didn't do more
        research, himself, before copying most of PT's
        EK Dictionary word for word. Thus, Klemp is now
        the one responsible for what he has placed his
        name to. Klemp, now, needs to explain why these
        Qabbala terms are being used. Also, HK needs
        to explain why he, too, claims that these ZOHAR
        Space Invaders (a new Root Race) will be coming
        to earth in (the later part of?) this Century. Of
        course, that's the Catch-22 for Twitchell and
        Klemp. When one makes Prophecies one has
        to make sure that if/when you're proven wrong
        that you'll be long dead!

        BTW- MISH, I agree that dreams are a mixed
        bag of worms. I had a close friend that died
        and had No dream of it happening. I recently
        had another dream where I awoke with the
        words clearly in my mind that "'Jon' has died!"
        However, it wasn't true! That person is still
        alive and well. Basically, dreams can give
        some insights for our own self-analysis
        and self-improvement but beyond that it
        seems to be a waste of time and attention.
        One can and does imagine whatever their
        expectations and subconscious mind tells
        them via imagination and the filling-in of
        mental and emotional gaps or desires.

        Eckankar merely uses DREAMS as a gaff to
        "hook" people and bring them into the org.
        It's just another "tool" from Klemp's tool box
        and is used as a distraction, as well as, for
        manipulation purposes. EKists are so busy
        focusing upon, studying, analyzing, and talking
        about their dreams that they are distracted
        from other more important questions... like
        the Zohar!

        Dream study has become big business and
        is complex and confusing. How does one ever
        "Master" dream interpretation? Klemp can
        say that it means this or that, but prove it!
        Actually, with Eckankar, questions about
        "dreams" are the safest ones to ask for an
        ECKist! Look at all of those books and
        discourses and workshops and group discussions
        about dreams. Dreams are a safe topic because
        there are no "wrong" questions. The only "wrong"
        answer is that dreams aren't all that important!

        Thus, the dream "hook" Eckankar uses becomes
        less attractive, meaningful, and useful for the
        really dedicated Spiritual-Truth Seeker who
        no longer has a need of trying to get around
        the dream censor in order to find some "higher"
        spiritual truth or meaning for their lives. Those
        caught up with finding bits and pieces of Truth
        through Dream interpretation are using out-dated
        and lower Mental Plane tools which equate to
        being a scam. Didn't Brad Steiger write about
        dreams, UFOs, and Bigfoot?

        Dreams, for Klemp, are used merely as another
        Bait and Switch product that is used to get people
        in the door and then to distract and brain-wash
        them with the imaginary "as if" technique (among
        others).

        Mish, I like what you said (below):

        "Looking for security in our beliefs or even
        trying to find a base for our spiritual beliefs,
        yes, we can end up with the "herd mentality."
        And in eckankar, if you weren't a sheep to
        begin with, you become exactly that with all
        the fears and controls that keep chelas manipulated
        and trapped in the org! One gets in so deep
        that one fears leaving, and will fight to the
        bitter end to hold onto the brass ring! : )

        Yes, that brass ring equates to the initiations
        and the first one (they say) is received in a dream!
        Of course, one is likely to dream of seeing an
        ECK Master when their pictures have been shown
        to you and it is suggested that they will show
        up in your dreams.... auto-suggestion or self-
        hypnosis goes a long way in making Eckankar
        "work." Grabbing at straws and mustard seeds
        of faith is all that any religion has ever needed
        to maintain a base of "followers" for the leaders
        to use up and lord over.

        Prometheus



        mish wrote:

        I found a message, commenting on an
        old thread from this message board in
        my email. I don't know who this "john"
        is or why he was compelled to send me
        a private email?? I'm not even sure what
        he is disagreeing about? But his comments
        are the same old rhetoric that many eckists
        have been brainwashed to mumble about
        dreams and dreaming.

        He is trying to explain the importance of
        dreams and obviously thinks that eckists
        have the inside tract on dreams and
        deciphering them. Well, hello, most of us
        do dream and dream on a regular basis.
        WHAT I DISAGREE WITH john's defense
        of needing to remember dreams and waking
        up during the night to write them down
        is this. . . Dreams are only one part or
        segment of our lives . . . I do agree they
        are important . . . but the heavy emphasis
        on dreams takes the dreamer out of the
        "in real life" living . . . It is not necessary
        to remember all dreams so I think it is
        a good idea to just go to sleep and not
        worry about what one dreams . . . if it
        is important, trust me, you will remember
        it when you wake up.

        Also, this practice of writing down dreams
        during the night's sleep activity impedes
        the natural flow of dreaming . . . so I would
        be concerned that a message, an important
        message, could be lost. And the dreamer
        would instead substitute and use his imagination
        to create his own dream symbols and not
        let Spirit deliver what Spirit so divinely is
        trying to convey to the dreamer.

        Important dreams do not need wild
        interpretations because they are usually
        direct and straight forward. Looking for
        signs and symbols just misleads one
        down a wrong path. Valuable time is
        wasted . . . but this is what eckankar does
        . . . it wastes the chelas' time!

        Yes, dreams can give warnings or help
        one understand things better but trying
        to capture every dream one dreams in
        a night time and remembering it is like
        collecting wheat and leaving the chafe
        with it. Rather than doing all that, it is
        important to get a good night's sleep,
        enjoy one's dreams peacefully and not
        worry about jarring oneself awake to
        record them . . . for fear of forgetting
        . . . this is just too nutty!

        For the record, I dream and I utilize
        my dreams but I don't stress myself
        about remembering them . . . I do
        remember the ones that really stand
        out . . . and there is "no trick" in having
        to understand them unless you're the
        type of individual that needs to have
        a hammer hit you between your eyes
        in order to get your attention!! LOL!

        Here's the message from john whoever he is . . .
        >
        Thursday, October 1, 2009 9:52 PM
        From: "johnwes2789"
        To: "mishmisha9"

        I disagree. Dreams are very important to
        us and guide me in my everyday life. The
        trick is to understand what they mean. Very
        often we can not take dreams literally but
        many images are symbolic. For example
        driving in my car may symbolize my astral,
        causal, etheric or soul body. Flying usually
        symbolizes me soul body. The reason we
        should write our dreams as soon as we can
        remember them is because if we wait until
        morning, we will have forgotten them and
        it will be too late. The dream is gone and
        most likely the spiritual message is lost too.
        >
        mish wrote:
        > >
        Hi, Freefrom and All!
        > >
        Good posts on this topic. Freefrom, you have really stated it
        succinctly and zoned in on the key reasons people are drawn into
        such deceptions as in Eckankar!
        > >
        Freefrom eckchains wrote:
        > > >
        LOL Yes, I agree. It's the old, it's too absurd to be true, so
        therefore it must be true! How could someone have made all of this
        stuff up? No one would be so dishonest as to just make all of this
        stuff up, right? Wrong. Let's face it, the ability to lie and
        act "as if" is a very human trait.
        > >
        Mish: It's called being creative and imaginative! LOL! Dreams are
        real, etc. Dreams can be real, but yet we must discern and
        discriminate in figuring out what is garbage and what is not.
        Eckists seem to want to "live" their dreams, and will make decisions
        solely based on what they "perceive" on the inner. Well, one must be
        careful here . . .

        The problem with falling for dishonest people's spills is that we
        want to believe that people are truthful and honest at heart and
        would not be out to take advantage of us or cause us harm. A person
        like PT probably thought that his lies would not be that harmful
        (criminal) to those he duped, so why not? Big lie vs. little lie;
        big harm vs. little harm--and of course, if people are dumb/foolish
        enough to believe this crap, well why not--it is the listener's
        responsibility to not be deceived, etc.
        > >
        Many eckists justify continuing with the false teachings of eckankar
        because they feel that they are benefiting from the teachings,
        regardless of the lies and deceptions. How often do we hear that a
        person learned so many valuable things while in eckankar; therefore,
        it is just fine to continue misleading individuals? the end
        justifies the means--but isn't this exactly the way people are
        manipulated and controlled? This is what keeps eckists in the org!
        They settle for imperfection while searching for spiritual truths
        and enlightenment--but the imperfections actually doom attaining the
        goal! How can one find spiritual truth when one is basing it on lies?
        > >
        I think Harold Klemp uses all of the above to continue the lies and
        deceptions. And many eckists believe that Harold lives a humble
        life, and fail to realize that he is reaping the wealth with a very
        nicely secured bank account and investments, and I'm sure he does
        live much better than he suggests in his talks. Why does he do this?
        To deceive and to encourage his chelas to live solely for the
        mahanta in order to continue to give and give! Some individuals
        believe that possessing the material or living too comfortably gets
        in the way of spiritual growth--this seems to be taught in eckankar.
        The poorer you are, the more evolved you are?? This is still another
        lie aimed at duping individuals to stay on the path. Picture Harold as
        a Clark Kent type who turns into Superman. Underneath those
        polyester suits and cheap ties, there is a different animal in
        different clothes. Of course, I don't mean that he is a "good"
        superman! : )
        > >
        > >
        Freefrom: "It takes guts and courage to be honest."
        > >
        Mish: You know I think we BELIEVE "it takes guts and courage to be
        honest." But in truth, it is the much easier road to take! 1.
        Standing up and admitting a mistake often surprises people and they
        appreciate the honesty, so it is the best way to diffuse a
        misunderstanding or an error in behavior, etc. 2. For myself, I feel
        much better being honest than trying to live a lie!
        > >
        Freefrom: "Those who stay with eckankar are still stuck in the herd
        mentality, like sheep. It's a kind of self-deception and false
        security."
        > >
        Mish: Looking for security in our beliefs or even trying to find a
        base for our spiritual beliefs, yes, we can end up with the "herd
        mentality." And in eckankar, if you weren't a sheep to begin with,
        you become exactly that with all the fears and controls that keep
        chelas manipulated and trapped in the org! One gets in so deep that
        one fears leaving, and will fight to the bitter end to hold onto the
        brass ring! : )
        > >
        Prometheus: "On the other hand, Twitch could have been playing with
        us and did this as a game of sorts. Twitch was clever and
        egotistical, and this might have been his way of having the last
        laugh on those followers and critics who were more educated
        (Ph.Ds, MDs, DDS)."
        > >
        Mish: Yes, I agree that PT was having good sport with people and
        that fooling people fed his ego! He found a dishonest way to dupe
        people and make a living, while pretending to be a great spiritual
        leader! I suppose he did believe some of it, because in the
        beginning he was a seeker himself, however, he evolved into a
        monster when he realized what he could do with his made up religion.
        He chose the dark side of the force, so to speak! : )
        > >
        Leigh wrote: "So often in the past six years
        I've seen people expressing the view that a lot of the junk was
        consciously engineered. I think this gives the people we're
        talking about WAY too much credit for being clever. I think far more
        often (particularly when you look at the volume of stuff) it's a
        case of someone spitting out something their mind had thrown up at
        them to experience. This makes them a double dupe, really. First
        they cram their mind full of stuff, then it kicks it back to them as
        best it can, and THEN they believe it, as is, without any critical
        review !"
        > >
        Mish: I agree with Leigh here as well. I believe that many
        individuals are using various resources such as self-publising
        books, setting up websites, doing workshops and seminars to "sell"
        junk to the public. It's all around us more than ever today with the
        fast speed of communications! Many people are buying into all kinds
        of stuff, conspiracy theories, mind control, healings, etc. Cram
        enough into your mind as Leigh states and critical thinking goes out
        the door. We lose our talent to discriminate truth from fiction.
        > >
        Anyway, very good discussions and comments. Thanks everyone!
        > >
        Mish
      • etznab@aol.com
        SEPHER. The ECK Master who will be responsible for the spiritual welfare of the ZOHAR, the root race who will colonize the earth after the catastrophe in the
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 4, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          "SEPHER. The ECK Master who will be responsible
          for the spiritual welfare of the ZOHAR, the
          root race who will colonize the earth after the
          catastrophe in the twenty-first and twenty-
          second centuries." [EK Lexicon, pgs. 186-187]

          *************************************************************

          Prometheus,

          My, oh my. I hadn't noticed that before! I have to
          say that looks really odd to me.

          I'm not sure what is more odd. That, or the latest
          Eck Master I heard about. I mean "Rabinowitz".
          I think that name appeared in one of the Mystic
          World publications in the past year or so.

          Did you see that reference to Rabinowitz?

          Etznab


          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, Oct 3, 2009 1:46 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: ZOHAR AND SEPHER more Eck
          Fiction by Twitchell

           






          Hello Mish and All,

          Twitchell uses these Qabbala terms

          to create Space Invaders in this century!



          It seems that Twitchell took these two

          terms, ZOHAR and SEPHER, from Qabbalism

          and then did his EK tweaking or rewrite

          for it to mean whatever he wanted. In

          this case it's to create a new root race

          of Space Aliens... for the 21st Century!



          "According to Eliphas Levi, the three

          greatest books of Qabbalism are the

          Sepher Yetzirah, The Book of Formation;

          the Sepher=2
          0ha Zohar, The Book of Splendor;

          and the Apocalypse, The Book of Revelation.

          The dates of the writing of these books

          are by no means thoroughly established.

          Qabbalists declare that the Sepher Yetzirah

          was written by Abraham. Although it is

          by far the oldest of the Qabbalistic books,

          it was probably from the pen of the Rabbi

          Akiba, A.D. 120. - Manly P. Hall, The Secret

          Teachings of All Ages (1928)"



          "SEPHER. The ECK Master who will be responsible

          for the spiritual welfare of the ZOHAR, the

          root race who will colonize the earth after the

          catastrophe in the twenty-first and twenty-

          second centuries." [EK Lexicon, pgs. 186-187]



          "ZOHAR, the. A future ROOT RACE who will

          come from a far distant planet to colonize

          the world after the destruction in the twenty-

          first and twenty-second centuries, BUT they

          will fail and after several centuries will withdraw."

          [EK Lexicon, pg. 243]



          One might ask where Twit got the idea for

          using this Qabbala info. Well, since PT studied

          and plagiarized from "The Path of the Masters"

          in order to help create Eckankar it would seem

          that this book would be a source for him. And,

          it just so happens that Zohar - Book of Splendor

          and the Sepher and the ten Sephiroth or Splendors

          of the Infinite One are listed here.



          It's really too bad that EKists don't
          read, study,

          research, and question the info listed in Klemp's

          EK Lexicon and compare that to Twitchell's EK

          Dictionary. Basically, there's just too much crap

          of Twitchell's to go through and change. Although,

          one has to wonder why Klemp didn't do more

          research, himself, before copying most of PT's

          EK Dictionary word for word. Thus, Klemp is now

          the one responsible for what he has placed his

          name to. Klemp, now, needs to explain why these

          Qabbala terms are being used. Also, HK needs

          to explain why he, too, claims that these ZOHAR

          Space Invaders (a new Root Race) will be coming

          to earth in (the later part of?) this Century. Of

          course, that's the Catch-22 for Twitchell and

          Klemp. When one makes Prophecies one has

          to make sure that if/when you're proven wrong

          that you'll be long dead!



          BTW- MISH, I agree that dreams are a mixed

          bag of worms. I had a close friend that died

          and had No dream of it happening. I recently

          had another dream where I awoke with the

          words clearly in my mind that "'Jon' has died!"

          However, it wasn't true! That person is still

          alive and well. Basically, dreams can give

          some insights for our own self-analysis

          and self-improvement but beyond that it

          seems to be a waste of time and attention.

          One can and does imagine whatever their

          expectations and subconscious mind tells=0
          D

          them via imagination and the filling-in of

          mental and emotional gaps or desires.



          Eckankar merely uses DREAMS as a gaff to

          "hook" people and bring them into the org.

          It's just another "tool" from Klemp's tool box

          and is used as a distraction, as well as, for

          manipulation purposes. EKists are so busy

          focusing upon, studying, analyzing, and talking

          about their dreams that they are distracted

          from other more important questions... like

          the Zohar!



          Dream study has become big business and

          is complex and confusing. How does one ever

          "Master" dream interpretation? Klemp can

          say that it means this or that, but prove it!

          Actually, with Eckankar, questions about

          "dreams" are the safest ones to ask for an

          ECKist! Look at all of those books and

          discourses and workshops and group discussions

          about dreams. Dreams are a safe topic because

          there are no "wrong" questions. The only "wrong"

          answer is that dreams aren't all that important!



          Thus, the dream "hook" Eckankar uses becomes

          less attractive, meaningful, and useful for the

          really dedicated Spiritual-Truth Seeker who

          no longer has a need of trying to get around

          the dream censor in order to find some "higher"

          spiritual truth or meaning for their lives. Those

          caught up with finding bits and pieces of Truth

          through Dream interpretation are using out-dated


          and lower Mental Plane tools which equate to

          being a scam. Didn't Brad Steiger write about

          dreams, UFOs, and Bigfoot?



          Dreams, for Klemp, are used merely as another

          Bait and Switch product that is used to get people

          in the door and then to distract and brain-wash

          them with the imaginary "as if" technique (among

          others).



          Mish, I like what you said (below):



          "Looking for security in our beliefs or even

          trying to find a base for our spiritual beliefs,

          yes, we can end up with the "herd mentality."

          And in eckankar, if you weren't a sheep to

          begin with, you become exactly that with all

          the fears and controls that keep chelas manipulated

          and trapped in the org! One gets in so deep

          that one fears leaving, and will fight to the

          bitter end to hold onto the brass ring! : )



          Yes, that brass ring equates to the initiations

          and the first one (they say) is received in a dream!

          Of course, one is likely to dream of seeing an

          ECK Master when their pictures have been shown

          to you and it is suggested that they will show

          up in your dreams.... auto-suggestion or self-

          hypnosis goes a long way in making Eckankar

          "work." Grabbing at straws and mustard seeds

          of faith is all that any religion has ever needed

          to maintain a base of "followers" for the leaders

          to use up and lo
          rd over.



          Prometheus



          mish wrote:



          I found a message, commenting on an

          old thread from this message board in

          my email. I don't know who this "john"

          is or why he was compelled to send me

          a private email?? I'm not even sure what

          he is disagreeing about? But his comments

          are the same old rhetoric that many eckists

          have been brainwashed to mumble about

          dreams and dreaming.



          He is trying to explain the importance of

          dreams and obviously thinks that eckists

          have the inside tract on dreams and

          deciphering them. Well, hello, most of us

          do dream and dream on a regular basis.

          WHAT I DISAGREE WITH john's defense

          of needing to remember dreams and waking

          up during the night to write them down

          is this. . . Dreams are only one part or

          segment of our lives . . . I do agree they

          are important . . . but the heavy emphasis

          on dreams takes the dreamer out of the

          "in real life" living . . . It is not necessary

          to remember all dreams so I think it is

          a good idea to just go to sleep and not

          worry about what one dreams . . . if it

          is important, trust me, you will remember

          it when you wake up.



          Also, this practice of writing down dreams

          during the night's sleep activity impedes

          the natural flow of dreaming . . . so I would
          =0
          A
          be concerned that a message, an important

          message, could be lost. And the dreamer

          would instead substitute and use his imagination

          to create his own dream symbols and not

          let Spirit deliver what Spirit so divinely is

          trying to convey to the dreamer.



          Important dreams do not need wild

          interpretations because they are usually

          direct and straight forward. Looking for

          signs and symbols just misleads one

          down a wrong path. Valuable time is

          wasted . . . but this is what eckankar does

          . . . it wastes the chelas' time!



          Yes, dreams can give warnings or help

          one understand things better but trying

          to capture every dream one dreams in

          a night time and remembering it is like

          collecting wheat and leaving the chafe

          with it. Rather than doing all that, it is

          important to get a good night's sleep,

          enjoy one's dreams peacefully and not

          worry about jarring oneself awake to

          record them . . . for fear of forgetting

          . . . this is just too nutty!



          For the record, I dream and I utilize

          my dreams but I don't stress myself

          about remembering them . . . I do

          remember the ones that really stand

          out . . . and there is "no trick" in having

          to understand them unless you're the

          type of individual that needs to have

          a hammer hit you between your eyes

          in order 20to get your attention!! LOL!



          Here's the message from john whoever he is . . .

          >

          Thursday, October 1, 2009 9:52 PM

          From: "johnwes2789"

          To: "mishmisha9"



          I disagree. Dreams are very important to

          us and guide me in my everyday life. The

          trick is to understand what they mean. Very

          often we can not take dreams literally but

          many images are symbolic. For example

          driving in my car may symbolize my astral,

          causal, etheric or soul body. Flying usually

          symbolizes me soul body. The reason we

          should write our dreams as soon as we can

          remember them is because if we wait until

          morning, we will have forgotten them and

          it will be too late. The dream is gone and

          most likely the spiritual message is lost too.

          >

          mish wrote:

          > >

          Hi, Freefrom and All!

          > >

          Good posts on this topic. Freefrom, you have really stated it

          succinctly and zoned in on the key reasons people are drawn into

          such deceptions as in Eckankar!

          > >

          Freefrom eckchains wrote:

          > > >

          LOL Yes, I agree. It's the old, it's too absurd to be true, so

          therefore it must be true! How could someone have made all of this

          stuff up? No one would be so dishonest as to just make all of this

          stuff up, right? Wrong. Let's face it, the ability to lie and

          act "as if"
          is a very human trait.

          > >

          Mish: It's called being creative and imaginative! LOL! Dreams are

          real, etc. Dreams can be real, but yet we must discern and

          discriminate in figuring out what is garbage and what is not.

          Eckists seem to want to "live" their dreams, and will make decisions

          solely based on what they "perceive" on the inner. Well, one must be

          careful here . . .



          The problem with falling for dishonest people's spills is that we

          want to believe that people are truthful and honest at heart and

          would not be out to take advantage of us or cause us harm. A person

          like PT probably thought that his lies would not be that harmful

          (criminal) to those he duped, so why not? Big lie vs. little lie;

          big harm vs. little harm--and of course, if people are dumb/foolish

          enough to believe this crap, well why not--it is the listener's

          responsibility to not be deceived, etc.

          > >

          Many eckists justify continuing with the false teachings of eckankar

          because they feel that they are benefiting from the teachings,

          regardless of the lies and deceptions. How often do we hear that a

          person learned so many valuable things while in eckankar; therefore,

          it is just fine to continue misleading individuals? the end

          justifies the means--but isn't this exactly the way people are

          manipulated and controlled? This is what keeps eckists in the org!

          0AThey settle for imperfection while searching for spiritual truths

          and enlightenment--but the imperfections actually doom attaining the

          goal! How can one find spiritual truth when one is basing it on lies?

          > >

          I think Harold Klemp uses all of the above to continue the lies and

          deceptions. And many eckists believe that Harold lives a humble

          life, and fail to realize that he is reaping the wealth with a very

          nicely secured bank account and investments, and I'm sure he does

          live much better than he suggests in his talks. Why does he do this?

          To deceive and to encourage his chelas to live solely for the

          mahanta in order to continue to give and give! Some individuals

          believe that possessing the material or living too comfortably gets

          in the way of spiritual growth--this seems to be taught in eckankar.

          The poorer you are, the more evolved you are?? This is still another

          lie aimed at duping individuals to stay on the path. Picture Harold as

          a Clark Kent type who turns into Superman. Underneath those

          polyester suits and cheap ties, there is a different animal in

          different clothes. Of course, I don't mean that he is a "good"

          superman! : )

          > >

          > >

          Freefrom: "It takes guts and courage to be honest."

          > >

          Mish: You know I think we BELIEVE "it takes guts and courage to be

          honest." But in truth, it is the much easier
          road to take! 1.

          Standing up and admitting a mistake often surprises people and they

          appreciate the honesty, so it is the best way to diffuse a

          misunderstanding or an error in behavior, etc. 2. For myself, I feel

          much better being honest than trying to live a lie!

          > >

          Freefrom: "Those who stay with eckankar are still stuck in the herd

          mentality, like sheep. It's a kind of self-deception and false

          security."

          > >

          Mish: Looking for security in our beliefs or even trying to find a

          base for our spiritual beliefs, yes, we can end up with the "herd

          mentality." And in eckankar, if you weren't a sheep to begin with,

          you become exactly that with all the fears and controls that keep

          chelas manipulated and trapped in the org! One gets in so deep that

          one fears leaving, and will fight to the bitter end to hold onto the

          brass ring! : )

          > >

          Prometheus: "On the other hand, Twitch could have been playing with

          us and did this as a game of sorts. Twitch was clever and

          egotistical, and this might have been his way of having the last

          laugh on those followers and critics who were more educated

          (Ph.Ds, MDs, DDS)."

          > >

          Mish: Yes, I agree that PT was having good sport with people and

          that fooling people fed his ego! He found a dishonest way to dupe

          people and make a living, while pretending to be a gr
          eat spiritual

          leader! I suppose he did believe some of it, because in the

          beginning he was a seeker himself, however, he evolved into a

          monster when he realized what he could do with his made up religion.

          He chose the dark side of the force, so to speak! : )

          > >

          Leigh wrote: "So often in the past six years

          I've seen people expressing the view that a lot of the junk was

          consciously engineered. I think this gives the people we're

          talking about WAY too much credit for being clever. I think far more

          often (particularly when you look at the volume of stuff) it's a

          case of someone spitting out something their mind had thrown up at

          them to experience. This makes them a double dupe, really. First

          they cram their mind full of stuff, then it kicks it back to them as

          best it can, and THEN they believe it, as is, without any critical

          review !"

          > >

          Mish: I agree with Leigh here as well. I believe that many

          individuals are using various resources such as self-publising

          books, setting up websites, doing workshops and seminars to "sell"

          junk to the public. It's all around us more than ever today with the

          fast speed of communications! Many people are buying into all kinds

          of stuff, conspiracy theories, mind control, healings, etc. Cram

          enough into your mind as Leigh states and critical thinking goes out

          the door. We lose ou
          r talent to discriminate truth from fiction.

          > >

          Anyway, very good discussions and comments. Thanks everyone!

          > >

          Mish
        • Moby
          I agree with all you say here, mish. Haven t you noticed the very bizarre interpretations HK provides on dreams? moby
          Message 4 of 4 , Oct 7, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            I agree with all you say here, mish. Haven't you noticed the very bizarre interpretations HK provides on dreams?

            moby

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
            >
            > I found a message, commenting on an old thread from this message board in my email. I don't know who this "john" is or why he was compelled to send me a private email?? I'm not even sure what he is disagreeing about? But his comments are the same old rhetoric that many eckists have been brainwashed to mumble about dreams and dreaming.
            >
            > He is trying to explain the importance of dreams and obviously thinks that eckists have the inside tract on dreams and deciphering them. Well, hello, most of us do dream and dream on a regular basis. WHAT I DISAGREE WITH john's defense of needing to remember dreams and waking up during the night to write them down is this. . . Dreams are only one part or segment of our lives . . . I do agree they are important . . . but the heavy emphasis on dreams takes the dreamer out of the "in real life" living . . . It is not necessary to remember all dreams so I think it is a good idea to just go to sleep and not worry about what one dreams . . . if it is important, trust me, you will remember it when you wake up.
            >
            > Also, this practice of writing down dreams during the night's sleep activity impedes the natural flow of dreaming . . . so I would be concerned that a message, an important message, could be lost. And the dreamer would instead substitute and use his imagination to create his own dream symbols and not let Spirit deliver what Spirit so divinely is trying to convey to the dreamer.
            >
            > Important dreams do not need wild interpretations because they are usually direct and straight forward. Looking for signs and symbols just misleads one down a wrong path. Valuable time is wasted . . . but this is what eckankar does . . . it wastes the chelas' time!
            >
            > Yes, dreams can give warnings or help one understand things better but trying to capture every dream one dreams in a night time and remembering it is like collecting wheat and leaving the chafe with it. Rather than doing all that, it is important to get a good night's sleep, enjoy one's dreams peacefully and not worry about jarring oneself awake to record them . . . for fear of forgetting . . . this is just too nutty!
            >
            > For the record, I dream and I utilize my dreams but I don't stress myself about remembering them . . . I do remember the ones that really stand out . . . and there is "no trick" in having to understand them unless you're the type of individual that needs to have a hammer hit you between your eyes in order to get your attention!! LOL!
            >
            > Here's the message from john whoever he is . . .
            >
            > Thursday, October 1, 2009 9:52 PM
            > From: "johnwes2789"
            > To: "mishmisha9"
            > I disagree. Dreams are very important to us and guide me in my everyday life. The trick is to understand what they mean. Very often we can not take dreams literally but many images are symbolic. For example driving in my car may symbolize my astral, causal, etheric or soul body. Flying usually symbolizes me soul body. The reason we should write our dreams as soon as we can remember them is because if we wait until morning, we will have forgotten them and it will be too late. The dream is gone and most likely the spiritual message is lost too.
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi, Freefrom and All!
            > >
            > > Good posts on this topic. Freefrom, you have really stated it
            > > succinctly and zoned in on the key reasons people are drawn into
            > > such deceptions as in Eckankar!
            > >
            > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
            > > <eckchains@y...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > LOL Yes, I agree. It's the old, it's too absurd to be true, so
            > > > therefore it must be true! How could someone have made all of this
            > > > stuff up? No one would be so dishonest as to just make all of this
            > > > stuff up, right? Wrong. Let's face it, the ability to lie and
            > > act "as if" is a very human trait.
            > >
            > > Mish: It's called being creative and imaginative! LOL! Dreams are
            > > real, etc. Dreams can be real, but yet we must discern and
            > > discriminate in figuring out what is garbage and what is not.
            > > Eckists seem to want to "live" their dreams, and will make decisions
            > > solely based on what they "perceive" on the inner. Well, one must be
            > > careful here . . .
            > > The problem with falling for dishonest people's spills is that we
            > > want to believe that people are truthful and honest at heart and
            > > would not be out to take advantage of us or cause us harm. A person
            > > like PT probably thought that his lies would not be that harmful
            > > (criminal) to those he duped, so why not? Big lie vs. little lie;
            > > big harm vs. little harm--and of course, if people are dumb/foolish
            > > enough to believe this crap, well why not--it is the listener's
            > > responsibility to not be deceived, etc.
            > >
            > > Many eckists justify continuing with the false teachings of eckankar
            > > because they feel that they are benefiting from the teachings,
            > > regardless of the lies and deceptions. How often do we hear that a
            > > person learned so many valuable things while in eckankar; therefore,
            > > it is just fine to continue misleading individuals? the end
            > > justifies the means--but isn't this exactly the way people are
            > > manipulated and controlled? This is what keeps eckists in the org!
            > > They settle for imperfection while searching for spiritual truths
            > > and enlightenment--but the imperfections actually doom attaining the
            > > goal! How can one find spiritual truth when one is basing it on lies?
            > >
            > > I think Harold Klemp uses all of the above to continue the lies and
            > > deceptions. And many eckists believe that Harold lives a humble
            > > life, and fail to realize that he is reaping the wealth with a very
            > > nicely secured bank account and investments, and I'm sure he does
            > > live much better than he suggests in his talks. Why does he do this?
            > > To deceive and to encourage his chelas to live solely for the
            > > mahanta in order to continue to give and give! Some individuals
            > > believe that possessing the material or living too comfortably gets
            > > in the way of spiritual growth--this seems to be taught in eckankar.
            > > The poorer you are, the more evolved you are?? This is still another lie aimed at duping individuals to stay on the path. Picture Harold as a Clark Kent type who turns into Superman. Underneath those
            > > polyester suits and cheap ties, there is a different animal in
            > > different clothes. Of course, I don't mean that he is a "good"
            > > superman! : )
            > >
            > >
            > > Freefrom: "It takes guts and courage to be honest."
            > >
            > > Mish: You know I think we BELIEVE "it takes guts and courage to be
            > > honest." But in truth, it is the much easier road to take! 1.
            > > Standing up and admitting a mistake often surprises people and they
            > > appreciate the honesty, so it is the best way to diffuse a
            > > misunderstanding or an error in behavior, etc. 2. For myself, I feel
            > > much better being honest than trying to live a lie!
            > >
            > > Freefrom: "Those who stay with eckankar are still stuck in the herd
            > > mentality, like sheep. It's a kind of self-deception and false
            > > security."
            > >
            > > Mish: Looking for security in our beliefs or even trying to find a
            > > base for our spiritual beliefs, yes, we can end up with the "herd
            > > mentality." And in eckankar, if you weren't a sheep to begin with,
            > > you become exactly that with all the fears and controls that keep
            > > chelas manipulated and trapped in the org! One gets in so deep that
            > > one fears leaving, and will fight to the bitter end to hold onto the
            > > brass ring! : )
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Prometheus: "On the other hand, Twitch could have been playing with
            > > us and did this as a game of sorts. Twitch was clever and
            > > egotistical, and this might have been his way of having the last
            > > laugh on those followers and critics who were more educated
            > > (Ph.Ds)."
            > >
            > >
            > > Mish: Yes, I agree that PT was having good sport with people and
            > > that fooling people fed his ego! He found a dishonest way to dupe
            > > people and make a living, while pretending to be a great spiritual
            > > leader! I suppose he did believe some of it, because in the
            > > beginning he was a seeker himself, however, he evolved into a
            > > monster when he realized what he could do with his made up religion.
            > > He chose the dark side of the force, so to speak! : )
            > >
            > >
            > > Leigh wrote: "So often in the past six years
            > > I've seen people expressing the view that a lot of the junk was
            > > consciously engineered. I think this gives the people we're
            > > talking about WAY too much credit for being clever. I think far more
            > > often (particularly when you look at the volume of stuff) it's a
            > > case of someone spitting out something their mind had thrown up at
            > > them to experience. This makes them a double dupe, really. First
            > > they cram their mind full of stuff, then it kicks it back to them as
            > > best it can, and THEN they believe it, as is, without any critical
            > > review !"
            > >
            > > Mish: I agree with Leigh here as well. I believe that many
            > > individuals are using various resources such as self-publising
            > > books, setting up websites, doing workshops and seminars to "sell"
            > > junk to the public. It's all around us more than ever today with the
            > > fast speed of communications! Many people are buying into all kinds
            > > of stuff, conspiracy theories, mind control, healings, etc. Cram
            > > enough into your mind as Leigh states and critical thinking goes out
            > > the door. We lose our talent to discriminate truth from fiction.
            > >
            > > Anyway, very good discussions and comments. Thanks everyone!
            > >
            > > Mish
            > >
            >
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