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How Twitchell created Sugmad from Surmad!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, Twitchell was known for his letter substitutions (among other manipulations) in order to disguise many of his plagiarisms. Yet, many ECKists don t
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 22, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello All,
      Twitchell was known for his letter
      substitutions (among other manipulations)
      in order to disguise many of his plagiarisms.
      Yet, many ECKists don't see the harm,
      except, it's all a distortion of the Real
      Truth!

      ******

      "Abstract sound as defined by the Sufis
      'Saute Surmad', means: the whole universe
      is filled with it. Sufis call the primal sound
      'Saute Surmad', the tone that fills the cosmos.
      The frequencies of this tone are too fine to
      be seen with the eyes or heard with the ear...

      It was 'Saute Surmad', the tone of the abstract
      which Muhammad perceived when he was
      enlightened in the cave of Gare Hira. The Koran
      also knows the sound that says: 'Let there be...'.

      Moses heard the same sound on the mount Sinai
      in his union with god, the same word became
      obvious to Jesus when he was in union with the
      heavenly father in the wilderness. Shiva heard
      the same 'Anahad Nada' in her Samadhi in the
      caves of the Himalaya.

      The flute of Krishna is the symbol of this tone.
      This sound is the source of all manifestation,
      given to the masters from within.... "The knower
      of the mystery of sound knows the mystery
      of the whole universe." - Hazrat Inayat Kahn

      ******

      BTW- Here's the EK Lexicon definition
      for the "cave of Gare-Hare:"

      "The Temple of Golden Wisdom located
      in the spiritual city of Agam Des, home
      of the Eshwar-Khanewale, the God-eaters.
      Yaubl Scabi is the guardian of the second
      section of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad here."

      And, (also from the EK Lexicon) -

      "Agam Des. A spiritual city on the earth
      planet located in the Hindu Kush mountains,
      whose spiritual leader is Yaubl Scabi... It
      is visited in the Atma Sarup, the Soul body,
      by invitation only; inaccessible world, or
      place."

      Note: The above definition for Agam
      Des states this is the "inaccessible world,"
      and the Agam LOK is the "inaccessible
      plane." Thus this 9th Plane Agam Lok
      "Temple" is located in a spiritual city
      (Agam Des) on "the earth planet!"

      Isn't there a conflict with the vibratory
      rates of the earth (physical) and the 9th
      plane? Is this another paradox, or is this
      a parallel universe sort of thing? Confusion
      keeps Eckists off balance and always second
      guessing their Mahanta - Catch-22!

      Prometheus
      p.s. I noticed that Inayat Khan mentions
      "the FLUTE of Krishna" in this article on
      Saute Surmad (Sugmad). I looked at the
      Worlds of ECK Chart in the back of the
      EK Lexicon and saw that the (Tone or Sound)
      "single note of the FLUTE" is associated
      with the CHANT of SUGMAD! Is this a
      coincidence that Khan and Twit are saying
      similar things? Not when PT is a known
      plagiarist! And, this info does show another
      connection, of dots, as to HOW PT created
      Eckankar!
    • etznab@aol.com
      Good point Prometheus. I ve seen how Krishna and the Bhagavadgita are looked at differently over the years in Eck literature. Julian Johnson writes about
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 26, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Good point Prometheus.

        I've seen how Krishna and the Bhagavadgita
        are looked at differently over the years in Eck
        literature.

        Julian Johnson writes about Krishna in the
        negative, too, his message, I think.

        However, I believe it's in The Key to ECKANKAR
        (1968) where Rebazar talks about Eck Masters &
        their role in (was it helping to?) write certain of the
        world's spiritual books. The Bhagavadgita is one of
        them!

        I'll have to find that section and see what it says
        exactly, to be clear.

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:36 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad from
        Surmad!

         






        Hello All,

        Twitchell was known for his letter

        substitutions (among other manipulations)

        in order to disguise many of his plagiarisms.

        Yet, many ECKists don't see the harm,

        except, it's all a distortion of the Real

        Truth!



        ******



        "Abstract sound as defined by the Sufis

        'Saute Surmad', means: the whole universe

        is filled with it. Sufis call the primal sound

        'Saute Surmad', the tone that fills the cosmos.

        The frequencies of this tone are too fine to

        be seen with the eyes or heard with the ear...



        It was 'Saute Surmad', the tone of the abstract
        0D
        which Muhammad perceived when he was

        enlightened in the cave of Gare Hira. The Koran

        also knows the sound that says: 'Let there be...'.



        Moses heard the same sound on the mount Sinai

        in his union with god, the same word became

        obvious to Jesus when he was in union with the

        heavenly father in the wilderness. Shiva heard

        the same 'Anahad Nada' in her Samadhi in the

        caves of the Himalaya.



        The flute of Krishna is the symbol of this tone.

        This sound is the source of all manifestation,

        given to the masters from within.... "The knower

        of the mystery of sound knows the mystery

        of the whole universe." - Hazrat Inayat Kahn



        ******



        BTW- Here's the EK Lexicon definition

        for the "cave of Gare-Hare:"



        "The Temple of Golden Wisdom located

        in the spiritual city of Agam Des, home

        of the Eshwar-Khanewale, the God-eaters.

        Yaubl Scabi is the guardian of the second

        section of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad here."



        And, (also from the EK Lexicon) -



        "Agam Des. A spiritual city on the earth

        planet located in the Hindu Kush mountains,

        whose spiritual leader is Yaubl Scabi... It

        is visited in the Atma Sarup, the Soul body,

        by invitation only; inaccessible world, or

        place."



        Note: The above definition for Agam

        Des states this is the "inaccessible world,"


        and the Agam LOK is the "inaccessible

        plane." Thus this 9th Plane Agam Lok

        "Temple" is located in a spiritual city

        (Agam Des) on "the earth planet!"



        Isn't there a conflict with the vibratory

        rates of the earth (physical) and the 9th

        plane? Is this another paradox, or is this

        a parallel universe sort of thing? Confusion

        keeps Eckists off balance and always second

        guessing their Mahanta - Catch-22!



        Prometheus

        p.s. I noticed that Inayat Khan mentions

        "the FLUTE of Krishna" in this article on

        Saute Surmad (Sugmad). I looked at the

        Worlds of ECK Chart in the back of the

        EK Lexicon and saw that the (Tone or Sound)

        "single note of the FLUTE" is associated

        with the CHANT of SUGMAD! Is this a

        coincidence that Khan and Twit are saying

        similar things? Not when PT is a known

        plagiarist! And, this info does show another

        connection, of dots, as to HOW PT created

        Eckankar!

















        0D
      • susan vanwijlen
        Hello All, We all know plagiarism occurs everywhere. The Christian Bible was plagiarized and aleterd so many times, who really knows what Jesus really did. If
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 26, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello All,

          We all know plagiarism occurs everywhere. The Christian Bible was plagiarized and aleterd so many times, who really knows what Jesus really did. If we read the Bible, we conclude Jesus was some super human. Yet there are no records in recorded history of any super human magician. And of course we have the miracle conception of Christ. So did the writers of the Bible plagiarize? You bet they did.

          Did Paul Twitchell plagiarize? Of course he did. So did the writers of the Koran and the writers of any religious text. It's all been done before.

          So where am I going with this?

          This is it. You must find your own path and follow it. It's that simple. Personally I like Eckankar. Maybe you don't. The Truth is out there. Very little of the truth is written. The Truth is best experienced and not written. Truth is relative. What I believe to be truth to me are lies to some one else. Just talk to an American and a Muslim fanatic. You will get 2 different views of the same event. Thus there are 2 Truths based on the same event. Does that surprise you? It should not.

          In the end you must follow your heart and let your heart guide you to the Spiritual Experiences you need.

          This may not be what you want to hear, but it's what intuition tells me to write to you. Follow your own path. Or as an Eckankar High Initiate repeatedly tells me "YOU ARE A MINI GOD AND THE MASTER OF YOUR OWN DESTINY".

          Sincerely yours,

          Susie



          --- On Sat, 9/26/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

          From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad from Surmad!
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Received: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 6:22 AM

           

          Good point Prometheus.

          I've seen how Krishna and the Bhagavadgita
          are looked at differently over the years in Eck
          literature.

          Julian Johnson writes about Krishna in the
          negative, too, his message, I think.

          However, I believe it's in The Key to ECKANKAR
          (1968) where Rebazar talks about Eck Masters &
          their role in (was it helping to?) write certain of the
          world's spiritual books. The Bhagavadgita is one of
          them!

          I'll have to find that section and see what it says
          exactly, to be clear.

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:36 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad from
          Surmad!

           

          Hello All,

          Twitchell was known for his letter

          substitutions (among other manipulations)

          in order to disguise many of his plagiarisms.

          Yet, many ECKists don't see the harm,

          except, it's all a distortion of the Real

          Truth!

          ******

          "Abstract sound as defined by the Sufis

          'Saute Surmad', means: the whole universe

          is filled with it. Sufis call the primal sound

          'Saute Surmad', the tone that fills the cosmos.

          The frequencies of this tone are too fine to

          be seen with the eyes or heard with the ear...

          It was 'Saute Surmad', the tone of the abstract
          0D
          which Muhammad perceived when he was

          enlightened in the cave of Gare Hira. The Koran

          also knows the sound that says: 'Let there be...'.

          Moses heard the same sound on the mount Sinai

          in his union with god, the same word became

          obvious to Jesus when he was in union with the

          heavenly father in the wilderness. Shiva heard

          the same 'Anahad Nada' in her Samadhi in the

          caves of the Himalaya.

          The flute of Krishna is the symbol of this tone.

          This sound is the source of all manifestation,

          given to the masters from within.... "The knower

          of the mystery of sound knows the mystery

          of the whole universe." - Hazrat Inayat Kahn

          ******

          BTW- Here's the EK Lexicon definition

          for the "cave of Gare-Hare:"

          "The Temple of Golden Wisdom located

          in the spiritual city of Agam Des, home

          of the Eshwar-Khanewale, the God-eaters.

          Yaubl Scabi is the guardian of the second

          section of the Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad here."

          And, (also from the EK Lexicon) -

          "Agam Des. A spiritual city on the earth

          planet located in the Hindu Kush mountains,

          whose spiritual leader is Yaubl Scabi... It

          is visited in the Atma Sarup, the Soul body,

          by invitation only; inaccessible world, or

          place."

          Note: The above definition for Agam

          Des states this is the "inaccessible world,"

          and the Agam LOK is the "inaccessible

          plane." Thus this 9th Plane Agam Lok

          "Temple" is located in a spiritual city

          (Agam Des) on "the earth planet!"

          Isn't there a conflict with the vibratory

          rates of the earth (physical) and the 9th

          plane? Is this another paradox, or is this

          a parallel universe sort of thing? Confusion

          keeps Eckists off balance and always second

          guessing their Mahanta - Catch-22!

          Prometheus

          p.s. I noticed that Inayat Khan mentions

          "the FLUTE of Krishna" in this article on

          Saute Surmad (Sugmad). I looked at the

          Worlds of ECK Chart in the back of the

          EK Lexicon and saw that the (Tone or Sound)

          "single note of the FLUTE" is associated

          with the CHANT of SUGMAD! Is this a

          coincidence that Khan and Twit are saying

          similar things? Not when PT is a known

          plagiarist! And, this info does show another

          connection, of dots, as to HOW PT created

          Eckankar!

          0D



          The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!
        • etznab@aol.com
          Did Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp or Eckankar ever publicly declare Paul Twitchell plagiarized? I remember Harold Klemp referring to Paul as a master compiler .
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 26, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Did Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp or Eckankar
            ever publicly declare Paul Twitchell plagiarized?

            I remember Harold Klemp referring to Paul as
            a "master compiler". Gathering and taking the
            best, whatever.

            The problem, as I see it, that is troublesome
            for some (not all) concerns the sources credited.

            Perhaps some people don't naturally take to
            the notion Paul used literary fiction to animate
            the teachings he gathered. I mean, by changing
            names and changing spellings for certain people
            and certain words to disassociate any negative
            stereotypes from the teaching (path) as he saw
            fit to describe it.

            It is easy to look at such practices as a form
            of deception, but I don't think deception is what
            people can't condone (forgive). What I think the
            unforgiving attitudes feed on most is the belief
            that "Eckankar" has never publicly admitted the
            "deception". Never come out and explained the
            myths and clarified the fictions from the facts.

            Organized religions are historically known to
            take certain liberties blurring the lines between
            fiction and fact. An organization, or corporation
            is not a "living" being though, IMO, despite the
            words they try to wear. Living people give them
            life. Living people breathe the words.

            (Perhaps some people are convinced truth can
            only be an individual undertaking & organized
            religion will forever remain inept to give the life
            and the truth that will set them free.
            I don't ex-
            actly know.)

            IMO, people are not going to stop writing the
            hateful and critical blogs so long as they continue
            to believe Eckankar is intentionally being deceptive
            and intentionally hiding the truth. If I am wrong and
            this is not a correct instinct then somebody should
            certainly weigh in and elaborate why.

            To be honest, I see an ongoing contest between
            organized religion to preserve certain liberties and
            to mystify certain truths (on the one hand) and the
            spirit of individuality to pursue certain liberties and
            to dispell certain myths. One is inanimate and the
            other animate. The animate can never become the
            inanimate. IMHO. And that's what it's all about :)

            Etznab

            -----Original Message-----
            From: susan vanwijlen <susiemieuxmieux@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sat, Sep 26, 2009 2:40 pm
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
            from Surmad!

             






            Hello All,

            We all know plagiarism occurs everywhere. The Christian Bible was
            plagiarized and aleterd so many times, who really knows what Jesus
            really did. If we read the Bible, we conclude Jesus was some super
            human. Yet there are no records in recorded history of any super human
            magician. And of course we have the miracle conception of Christ. So
            did the writers of the Bible plagiarize? You bet they did.

            Did Paul Twitchell plagiarize? Of course he did. So di
            d the writers of
            the Koran and the writers of any religious text. It's all been done
            before.

            So where am I going with this?

            This is it. You must find your own path and follow it. It's that
            simple. Personally I like Eckankar. Maybe you don't. The Truth is out
            there. Very little of the truth is written. The Truth is best
            experienced and not written. Truth is relative. What I
            believe to be truth to me are lies to some one else. Just talk to an
            American and a Muslim fanatic. You will get 2 different views of the
            same event. Thus there are 2 Truths based on the same event. Does that
            surprise you? It should not.

            In the end you must follow your heart and let your heart guide you to
            the Spiritual Experiences you need.

            This may not be what you want to hear, but it's what intuition tells me
            to write to you. Follow your own path. Or as an Eckankar High Initiate
            repeatedly tells me "YOU ARE A MINI GOD AND THE MASTER OF YOUR OWN
            DESTINY".

            Sincerely yours,

            Susie



            --- On Sat, 9/26/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

            From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
            from Surmad!
            To:
            EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Received: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 6:22 AM






             



            Good point Prometheus.



            I've seen how Krishna and the Bhagavadg
            ita

            are looked at differently over the years in Eck

            literature.



            Julian Johnson writes about Krishna in the

            negative, too, his message, I think.



            However, I believe it's in The Key to ECKANKAR

            (1968) where Rebazar talks about Eck Masters &

            their role in (was it helping to?) write certain of the

            world's spiritual books. The Bhagavadgita is one of

            them!



            I'll have to find that section and see what it says

            exactly, to be clear.



            Etznab



            -----Original Message-----

            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

            To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

            Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:36 pm

            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
            from

            Surmad!



             



            Hello All,



            Twitchell was known for his letter



            substitutions (among other manipulations)



            in order to disguise many of his plagiarisms.



            Yet, many ECKists don't see the harm,



            except, it's all a distortion of the Real



            Truth!



            ******



            "Abstract sound as defined by the Sufis



            'Saute Surmad', means: the whole universe



            is filled with it. Sufis call the primal sound



            'Saute Surmad', the tone that fills the cosmos.



            The frequencies of this tone are too fine to



            be seen20with the eyes or heard with the ear...



            It was 'Saute Surmad', the tone of the abstract

            0D

            which Muhammad perceived when he was



            enlightened in the cave of Gare Hira. The Koran



            also knows the sound that says: 'Let there be...'.



            Moses heard the same sound on the mount Sinai



            in his union with god, the same word became



            obvious to Jesus when he was in union with the



            heavenly father in the wilderness. Shiva heard



            the same 'Anahad Nada' in her Samadhi in the



            caves of the Himalaya.



            The flute of Krishna is the symbol of this tone.



            This sound is the source of all manifestation,



            given to the masters from within.... "The knower



            of the mystery of sound knows the mystery



            of the whole universe." - Hazrat Inayat Kahn



            ******



            BTW- Here's the EK Lexicon definition



            for the "cave of Gare-Hare:"



            "The Temple of Golden Wisdom located



            in the spiritual city of Agam Des, home



            of the Eshwar-Khanewale, the God-eaters.



            Yaubl Scabi is the guardian of the second



            section of the Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad here."



            And, (also from the EK Lexicon) -



            "Agam Des. A spiritual city on the earth



            planet located in the Hindu Kush mountains,=0
            D



            whose spiritual leader is Yaubl Scabi... It



            is visited in the Atma Sarup, the Soul body,



            by invitation only; inaccessible world, or



            place."



            Note: The above definition for Agam



            Des states this is the "inaccessible world,"



            and the Agam LOK is the "inaccessible



            plane." Thus this 9th Plane Agam Lok



            "Temple" is located in a spiritual city



            (Agam Des) on "the earth planet!"



            Isn't there a conflict with the vibratory



            rates of the earth (physical) and the 9th



            plane? Is this another paradox, or is this



            a parallel universe sort of thing? Confusion



            keeps Eckists off balance and always second



            guessing their Mahanta - Catch-22!



            Prometheus



            p.s. I noticed that Inayat Khan mentions



            "the FLUTE of Krishna" in this article on



            Saute Surmad (Sugmad). I looked at the



            Worlds of ECK Chart in the back of the



            EK Lexicon and saw that the (Tone or Sound)



            "single note of the FLUTE" is associated



            with the CHANT of SUGMAD! Is this a



            coincidence that Khan and Twit are saying



            similar things? Not when PT is a known



            plagiarist! And, this info does show another



            connection, of dots, as to HOW PT crea
            ted



            Eckankar!



            0D
















            The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized
            for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!
          • susiemieuxmieux
            I will send an e-mail to Darwin Gross and ask him if Paul Twitchell ever plagiarized. Since Darwin Gross took over Eckakar after Paul Twitchell translated I
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 27, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              I will send an e-mail to Darwin Gross and ask him if Paul Twitchell ever plagiarized. Since Darwin Gross took over Eckakar after Paul Twitchell translated I think Darwin Gross would be the best person to answer that question. I will keep you posted on their response.



              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > Did Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp or Eckankar
              > ever publicly declare Paul Twitchell plagiarized?
              >
              > I remember Harold Klemp referring to Paul as
              > a "master compiler". Gathering and taking the
              > best, whatever.
              >
              > The problem, as I see it, that is troublesome
              > for some (not all) concerns the sources credited.
              >
              > Perhaps some people don't naturally take to
              > the notion Paul used literary fiction to animate
              > the teachings he gathered. I mean, by changing
              > names and changing spellings for certain people
              > and certain words to disassociate any negative
              > stereotypes from the teaching (path) as he saw
              > fit to describe it.
              >
              > It is easy to look at such practices as a form
              > of deception, but I don't think deception is what
              > people can't condone (forgive). What I think the
              > unforgiving attitudes feed on most is the belief
              > that "Eckankar" has never publicly admitted the
              > "deception". Never come out and explained the
              > myths and clarified the fictions from the facts.
              >
              > Organized religions are historically known to
              > take certain liberties blurring the lines between
              > fiction and fact. An organization, or corporation
              > is not a "living" being though, IMO, despite the
              > words they try to wear. Living people give them
              > life. Living people breathe the words.
              >
              > (Perhaps some people are convinced truth can
              > only be an individual undertaking & organized
              > religion will forever remain inept to give the life
              > and the truth that will set them free.
              > I don't ex-
              > actly know.)
              >
              > IMO, people are not going to stop writing the
              > hateful and critical blogs so long as they continue
              > to believe Eckankar is intentionally being deceptive
              > and intentionally hiding the truth. If I am wrong and
              > this is not a correct instinct then somebody should
              > certainly weigh in and elaborate why.
              >
              > To be honest, I see an ongoing contest between
              > organized religion to preserve certain liberties and
              > to mystify certain truths (on the one hand) and the
              > spirit of individuality to pursue certain liberties and
              > to dispell certain myths. One is inanimate and the
              > other animate. The animate can never become the
              > inanimate. IMHO. And that's what it's all about :)
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: susan vanwijlen <susiemieuxmieux@...>
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sat, Sep 26, 2009 2:40 pm
              > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
              > from Surmad!
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello All,
              >
              > We all know plagiarism occurs everywhere. The Christian Bible was
              > plagiarized and aleterd so many times, who really knows what Jesus
              > really did. If we read the Bible, we conclude Jesus was some super
              > human. Yet there are no records in recorded history of any super human
              > magician. And of course we have the miracle conception of Christ. So
              > did the writers of the Bible plagiarize? You bet they did.
              >
              > Did Paul Twitchell plagiarize? Of course he did. So di
              > d the writers of
              > the Koran and the writers of any religious text. It's all been done
              > before.
              >
              > So where am I going with this?
              >
              > This is it. You must find your own path and follow it. It's that
              > simple. Personally I like Eckankar. Maybe you don't. The Truth is out
              > there. Very little of the truth is written. The Truth is best
              > experienced and not written. Truth is relative. What I
              > believe to be truth to me are lies to some one else. Just talk to an
              > American and a Muslim fanatic. You will get 2 different views of the
              > same event. Thus there are 2 Truths based on the same event. Does that
              > surprise you? It should not.
              >
              > In the end you must follow your heart and let your heart guide you to
              > the Spiritual Experiences you need.
              >
              > This may not be what you want to hear, but it's what intuition tells me
              > to write to you. Follow your own path. Or as an Eckankar High Initiate
              > repeatedly tells me "YOU ARE A MINI GOD AND THE MASTER OF YOUR OWN
              > DESTINY".
              >
              > Sincerely yours,
              >
              > Susie
              >
              >
              >
              > --- On Sat, 9/26/09, etznab@... etznab@... wrote:
              >
              > From: etznab@... etznab@...
              > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
              > from Surmad!
              > To:
              > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Received: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 6:22 AM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Good point Prometheus.
              >
              >
              >
              > I've seen how Krishna and the Bhagavadg
              > ita
              >
              > are looked at differently over the years in Eck
              >
              > literature.
              >
              >
              >
              > Julian Johnson writes about Krishna in the
              >
              > negative, too, his message, I think.
              >
              >
              >
              > However, I believe it's in The Key to ECKANKAR
              >
              > (1968) where Rebazar talks about Eck Masters &
              >
              > their role in (was it helping to?) write certain of the
              >
              > world's spiritual books. The Bhagavadgita is one of
              >
              > them!
              >
              >
              >
              > I'll have to find that section and see what it says
              >
              > exactly, to be clear.
              >
              >
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              >
              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
              >
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
              >
              > Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:36 pm
              >
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
              > from
              >
              > Surmad!
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello All,
              >
              >
              >
              > Twitchell was known for his letter
              >
              >
              >
              > substitutions (among other manipulations)
              >
              >
              >
              > in order to disguise many of his plagiarisms.
              >
              >
              >
              > Yet, many ECKists don't see the harm,
              >
              >
              >
              > except, it's all a distortion of the Real
              >
              >
              >
              > Truth!
              >
              >
              >
              > ******
              >
              >
              >
              > "Abstract sound as defined by the Sufis
              >
              >
              >
              > 'Saute Surmad', means: the whole universe
              >
              >
              >
              > is filled with it. Sufis call the primal sound
              >
              >
              >
              > 'Saute Surmad', the tone that fills the cosmos.
              >
              >
              >
              > The frequencies of this tone are too fine to
              >
              >
              >
              > be seen20with the eyes or heard with the ear...
              >
              >
              >
              > It was 'Saute Surmad', the tone of the abstract
              >
              > 0D
              >
              > which Muhammad perceived when he was
              >
              >
              >
              > enlightened in the cave of Gare Hira. The Koran
              >
              >
              >
              > also knows the sound that says: 'Let there be...'.
              >
              >
              >
              > Moses heard the same sound on the mount Sinai
              >
              >
              >
              > in his union with god, the same word became
              >
              >
              >
              > obvious to Jesus when he was in union with the
              >
              >
              >
              > heavenly father in the wilderness. Shiva heard
              >
              >
              >
              > the same 'Anahad Nada' in her Samadhi in the
              >
              >
              >
              > caves of the Himalaya.
              >
              >
              >
              > The flute of Krishna is the symbol of this tone.
              >
              >
              >
              > This sound is the source of all manifestation,
              >
              >
              >
              > given to the masters from within.... "The knower
              >
              >
              >
              > of the mystery of sound knows the mystery
              >
              >
              >
              > of the whole universe." - Hazrat Inayat Kahn
              >
              >
              >
              > ******
              >
              >
              >
              > BTW- Here's the EK Lexicon definition
              >
              >
              >
              > for the "cave of Gare-Hare:"
              >
              >
              >
              > "The Temple of Golden Wisdom located
              >
              >
              >
              > in the spiritual city of Agam Des, home
              >
              >
              >
              > of the Eshwar-Khanewale, the God-eaters.
              >
              >
              >
              > Yaubl Scabi is the guardian of the second
              >
              >
              >
              > section of the Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad here."
              >
              >
              >
              > And, (also from the EK Lexicon) -
              >
              >
              >
              > "Agam Des. A spiritual city on the earth
              >
              >
              >
              > planet located in the Hindu Kush mountains,=0
              > D
              >
              >
              >
              > whose spiritual leader is Yaubl Scabi... It
              >
              >
              >
              > is visited in the Atma Sarup, the Soul body,
              >
              >
              >
              > by invitation only; inaccessible world, or
              >
              >
              >
              > place."
              >
              >
              >
              > Note: The above definition for Agam
              >
              >
              >
              > Des states this is the "inaccessible world,"
              >
              >
              >
              > and the Agam LOK is the "inaccessible
              >
              >
              >
              > plane." Thus this 9th Plane Agam Lok
              >
              >
              >
              > "Temple" is located in a spiritual city
              >
              >
              >
              > (Agam Des) on "the earth planet!"
              >
              >
              >
              > Isn't there a conflict with the vibratory
              >
              >
              >
              > rates of the earth (physical) and the 9th
              >
              >
              >
              > plane? Is this another paradox, or is this
              >
              >
              >
              > a parallel universe sort of thing? Confusion
              >
              >
              >
              > keeps Eckists off balance and always second
              >
              >
              >
              > guessing their Mahanta - Catch-22!
              >
              >
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              > p.s. I noticed that Inayat Khan mentions
              >
              >
              >
              > "the FLUTE of Krishna" in this article on
              >
              >
              >
              > Saute Surmad (Sugmad). I looked at the
              >
              >
              >
              > Worlds of ECK Chart in the back of the
              >
              >
              >
              > EK Lexicon and saw that the (Tone or Sound)
              >
              >
              >
              > "single note of the FLUTE" is associated
              >
              >
              >
              > with the CHANT of SUGMAD! Is this a
              >
              >
              >
              > coincidence that Khan and Twit are saying
              >
              >
              >
              > similar things? Not when PT is a known
              >
              >
              >
              > plagiarist! And, this info does show another
              >
              >
              >
              > connection, of dots, as to HOW PT crea
              > ted
              >
              >
              >
              > Eckankar!
              >
              >
              >
              > 0D
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized
              > for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Susie, Twitch s plagiarisms also included the dogma of Sant Mat. The scam involved more than words taken from text as a shortcut. Other (4th Plane)
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 28, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Susie,
                Twitch's plagiarisms also included
                the dogma of Sant Mat. The scam
                involved more than words taken
                from text as a shortcut. Other (4th
                Plane) religious beliefs became the
                foundation of the EK teachings.
                You seem to overlook the obvious
                and depend upon others (H.I.s) to
                think for you. The "mini God" thing
                only means that you have become
                delusional enough to believe that
                you're also a "mini Master" who
                is codependent upon the superstitious,
                mythical, metaphysical, and altered
                beliefs of a religion that you agree
                has been "plagiarized."

                You have not only been kept in the
                dark but, also, have blinders on.
                Your ignorance of the fact that Darwin
                died in March 2008 is proof that
                Klemp has been keeping all Eckists
                in the dark. After all, Darwin initiated
                Klemp with several higher initiations
                including the 12th! Yet, Klemp can't
                share that his previous Master and
                the 972nd LEM has translated! This
                shows the devious side of Klemp
                more than anything else.

                In your previous post you also state
                that you will email Darwin and ask
                him the question Etznab mentioned.
                This was a rhetorical question! And,
                who are you that Darwin would have
                answered you in the first place! Why
                don't you "email" Klemp with some
                questions?

                BTW- Jesus didn't write the Bible
                or create Christianity or the forms
                (sects) it has taken. However, Twitchell
                did both. He wrote the Shariyats and
                created Eckankar. Plus, "we" can conclude
                from reading the Bible that Jesus was
                an advanced Soul and a Prophet. Thus,
                JC was more than HK could ever hope
                to be... ever! Also, many think Jesus was
                the Son of God versus a "super human
                magician" as you claim. Are you from
                Canada? All of the rewrites came after
                Jesus died... including his virgin birth.

                BTW- Twitchell tried to do a rewrite
                of history and gave himself a "virgin
                birth." PT has one story where he was
                an illegitimate son of a affair his father
                had, and then PT gave another story of
                where he was found by his "step-sister,"
                (versus "half-sister") Kay-Dee, down
                by the riverbank and in a basket like
                Moses! Thus, Paul had two versions.
                However, the "third version" would be
                that Paul Was Not born out of wedlock
                or found down by the river. Paul simply
                had "issues" with his mother (maybe she
                was strict with him) and this was his way
                of showing his anger and resentment
                by disavowing her as his mother. This
                depicts the pretend world that Twit
                lived in and never out grew. Thus,
                the lies and fantasy/delusion versus
                the reality of Truth!

                If you are able to buy HK's book
                "Soul Travelers of the Far Country"
                read Chapter 7 and you, too, will
                wonder why Klemp never mentioned
                Darwin's passing. Plus, you will see
                that Klemp is the true Black Magician
                since it was his idea to meet with
                Darwin, to plan the transition, in
                a Sound Proofed Dark Room where
                HK worked at the ESC. I should spell
                out these ramifications for you since
                you're having trouble connecting
                the dots. Sound Proofed means that
                the "Sound" current was prevented
                from coming in. This might have been
                symbolic or Golden-Tongued Wisdom/
                Waking Dream stuff. The same goes
                for the room being used as a "Dark
                Room." Thus no "Light" could come
                in as well! Another warning to DG
                about Klemp from the ECK! Plus,
                Klemp never told Darwin about his
                bridge jump, strip tease, arrest, and
                incarceration in a mental institution
                because if he had DG would have
                chosen another to be the LEM and
                write the EK books.

                Prometheus


                Susie wrote:
                Hello All,

                We all know plagiarism occurs everywhere.
                The Christian Bible was plagiarized and
                aleterd so many times, who really knows
                what Jesus really did. If we read the Bible,
                we conclude Jesus was some super human.
                Yet there are no records in recorded history
                of any super human magician. And of course
                we have the miracle conception of Christ.
                So did the writers of the Bible plagiarize?
                You bet they did.

                Did Paul Twitchell plagiarize? Of course
                he did. So did the writers of the Koran
                and the writers of any religious text. It's
                all been done before.

                So where am I going with this?

                This is it. You must find your own
                path and follow it. It's that simple.
                Personally I like Eckankar. Maybe
                you don't. The Truth is out there.
                Very little of the truth is written.
                The Truth is best experienced and
                not written. Truth is relative. What
                I believe to be truth to me are lies
                to some one else. Just talk to an
                American and a Muslim fanatic.
                You will get 2 different views of
                the same event. Thus there are 2
                Truths based on the same event.

                Does that surprise you?
                It should not.

                In the end you must follow your
                heart and let your heart guide you
                to the Spiritual Experiences you need.

                This may not be what you want to
                hear, but it's what intuition tells
                me to write to you. Follow your own
                path. Or as an Eckankar High Initiate
                repeatedly tells me "YOU ARE A MINI
                GOD AND THE MASTER OF YOUR OWN
                DESTINY".

                Sincerely yours,

                Susie





                etznab wrote:

                Good point Prometheus.
                >
                >
                >
                I've seen how Krishna and the Bhagavadgita
                >
                are looked at differently over the years in Eck
                >
                literature.
                >
                >
                >
                > Julian Johnson writes about Krishna in the
                >
                > negative, too, his message, I think.
                >
                >
                >
                > However, I believe it's in The Key to ECKANKAR
                >
                > (1968) where Rebazar talks about Eck Masters &
                >
                > their role in (was it helping to?) write certain of the
                >
                > world's spiritual books. The Bhagavadgita is one of
                >
                > them!
                >
                >
                >
                > I'll have to find that section and see what it says
                >
                > exactly, to be clear.
                >
                >
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                >
                >
                Prometheus wrote:
                >
                > How Twitchell created Sugmad
                > from Surmad!
                >

                > Hello All,
                >
                >
                >
                > Twitchell was known for his letter
                >
                >
                >
                > substitutions (among other manipulations)
                >
                >
                >
                > in order to disguise many of his plagiarisms.
                >
                >
                >
                > Yet, many ECKists don't see the harm,
                >
                >
                >
                > except, it's all a distortion of the Real
                >
                >
                >
                > Truth!
                >
                >
                >
                > ******
                >
                >
                >
                > "Abstract sound as defined by the Sufis
                >
                >
                >
                > 'Saute Surmad', means: the whole universe
                >
                >
                >
                > is filled with it. Sufis call the primal sound
                >
                >
                >
                > 'Saute Surmad', the tone that fills the cosmos.
                >
                >
                >
                > The frequencies of this tone are too fine to
                >
                >
                >
                > be seen20with the eyes or heard with the ear...
                >
                >
                >
                > It was 'Saute Surmad', the tone of the abstract
                >
                >
                >
                > which Muhammad perceived when he was
                >
                >
                >
                > enlightened in the cave of Gare Hira. The Koran
                >
                >
                >
                > also knows the sound that says: 'Let there be...'.
                >
                >
                >
                > Moses heard the same sound on the mount Sinai
                >
                >
                >
                > in his union with god, the same word became
                >
                >
                >
                > obvious to Jesus when he was in union with the
                >
                >
                >
                > heavenly father in the wilderness. Shiva heard
                >
                >
                >
                > the same 'Anahad Nada' in her Samadhi in the
                >
                >
                >
                > caves of the Himalaya.
                >
                >
                >
                > The flute of Krishna is the symbol of this tone.
                >
                >
                >
                > This sound is the source of all manifestation,
                >
                >
                >
                > given to the masters from within.... "The knower
                >
                >
                >
                > of the mystery of sound knows the mystery
                >
                >
                >
                > of the whole universe." - Hazrat Inayat Kahn
                >
                >
                >
                > ******
                >
                >
                >
                > BTW- Here's the EK Lexicon definition
                >
                >
                >
                > for the "cave of Gare-Hare:"
                >
                >
                >
                > "The Temple of Golden Wisdom located
                >
                >
                >
                > in the spiritual city of Agam Des, home
                >
                >
                >
                > of the Eshwar-Khanewale, the God-eaters.
                >
                >
                >
                > Yaubl Scabi is the guardian of the second
                >
                >
                >
                > section of the Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad here."
                >
                >
                >
                > And, (also from the EK Lexicon) -
                >
                >
                >
                > "Agam Des. A spiritual city on the earth
                >
                >
                >
                > planet located in the Hindu Kush mountains,
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > whose spiritual leader is Yaubl Scabi... It
                >
                >
                >
                > is visited in the Atma Sarup, the Soul body,
                >
                >
                >
                > by invitation only; inaccessible world, or
                >
                >
                >
                > place."
                >
                >
                >
                > Note: The above definition for Agam
                >
                >
                >
                > Des states this is the "inaccessible world,"
                >
                >
                >
                > and the Agam LOK is the "inaccessible
                >
                >
                >
                > plane." Thus this 9th Plane Agam Lok
                >
                >
                >
                > "Temple" is located in a spiritual city
                >
                >
                >
                > (Agam Des) on "the earth planet!"
                >
                >
                >
                > Isn't there a conflict with the vibratory
                >
                >
                >
                > rates of the earth (physical) and the 9th
                >
                >
                >
                > plane? Is this another paradox, or is this
                >
                >
                >
                > a parallel universe sort of thing? Confusion
                >
                >
                >
                > keeps Eckists off balance and always second
                >
                >
                >
                > guessing their Mahanta - Catch-22!
                >
                >
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                >
                > p.s. I noticed that Inayat Khan mentions
                >
                >
                >
                > "the FLUTE of Krishna" in this article on
                >
                >
                >
                > Saute Surmad (Sugmad). I looked at the
                >
                >
                >
                > Worlds of ECK Chart in the back of the
                >
                >
                >
                > EK Lexicon and saw that the (Tone or Sound)
                >
                >
                >
                > "single note of the FLUTE" is associated
                >
                >
                >
                > with the CHANT of SUGMAD! Is this a
                >
                >
                >
                > coincidence that Khan and Twit are saying
                >
                >
                >
                > similar things? Not when PT is a known
                >
                >
                >
                > plagiarist! And, this info does show another
                >
                >
                >
                > connection, of dots, as to HOW PT created
                >
                >
                >
                > Eckankar!
              • mishmisha9
                Oh, dear, Susie! How can you not know that Darwin died? Well, yes, Klemp didn t bother to make an announcement when he passed even though many eckists on the
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 28, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Oh, dear, Susie! How can you not know that Darwin died?
                  Well, yes, Klemp didn't bother to make an announcement when
                  he passed even though many eckists on the internet on various
                  sites did say some kind words about Darwin at his passing. And
                  many were surprised and disappointed by Klemp's silence.
                  To me, Klemp's silence was still yet another example of Klemp's
                  inability to relate to others, to feel true compassion and love . . .
                  Pity really that so many are following such a cold hearted and
                  mean spirited delusional con man. It is a shame that chelas
                  give Klemp the power to disrupt their lives, isolate and insulate
                  them from the real world and even worse to impede and stop critical
                  thinking! Because to follow eckankar and Klemp, a chela
                  must stop thinking critically!!

                  I can well imagine that ESA is disturbing to you, but rather than
                  to debate or argue about eckankar, why not spend the time
                  reading the old posts here and also the information in the files.
                  If you have questions, I'm sure some here will try to help answer
                  them. But basically do some reading and start thinking about
                  some of these discussions and information . . . make your own
                  conclusions. . . and then you will be practicing free will by utilizing
                  your talents of critical thinking! Think for yourself . . . this is something
                  that eckankar does not teach or want! Good luck and best wishes!

                  Mish



                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "susiemieuxmieux" <susiemieuxmieux@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I will send an e-mail to Darwin Gross and ask him if Paul Twitchell ever plagiarized. Since Darwin Gross took over Eckakar after Paul Twitchell translated I think Darwin Gross would be the best person to answer that question. I will keep you posted on their response.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Did Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp or Eckankar
                  > > ever publicly declare Paul Twitchell plagiarized?
                  > >
                  > > I remember Harold Klemp referring to Paul as
                  > > a "master compiler". Gathering and taking the
                  > > best, whatever.
                  > >
                  > > The problem, as I see it, that is troublesome
                  > > for some (not all) concerns the sources credited.
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps some people don't naturally take to
                  > > the notion Paul used literary fiction to animate
                  > > the teachings he gathered. I mean, by changing
                  > > names and changing spellings for certain people
                  > > and certain words to disassociate any negative
                  > > stereotypes from the teaching (path) as he saw
                  > > fit to describe it.
                  > >
                  > > It is easy to look at such practices as a form
                  > > of deception, but I don't think deception is what
                  > > people can't condone (forgive). What I think the
                  > > unforgiving attitudes feed on most is the belief
                  > > that "Eckankar" has never publicly admitted the
                  > > "deception". Never come out and explained the
                  > > myths and clarified the fictions from the facts.
                  > >
                  > > Organized religions are historically known to
                  > > take certain liberties blurring the lines between
                  > > fiction and fact. An organization, or corporation
                  > > is not a "living" being though, IMO, despite the
                  > > words they try to wear. Living people give them
                  > > life. Living people breathe the words.
                  > >
                  > > (Perhaps some people are convinced truth can
                  > > only be an individual undertaking & organized
                  > > religion will forever remain inept to give the life
                  > > and the truth that will set them free.
                  > > I don't ex-
                  > > actly know.)
                  > >
                  > > IMO, people are not going to stop writing the
                  > > hateful and critical blogs so long as they continue
                  > > to believe Eckankar is intentionally being deceptive
                  > > and intentionally hiding the truth. If I am wrong and
                  > > this is not a correct instinct then somebody should
                  > > certainly weigh in and elaborate why.
                  > >
                  > > To be honest, I see an ongoing contest between
                  > > organized religion to preserve certain liberties and
                  > > to mystify certain truths (on the one hand) and the
                  > > spirit of individuality to pursue certain liberties and
                  > > to dispell certain myths. One is inanimate and the
                  > > other animate. The animate can never become the
                  > > inanimate. IMHO. And that's what it's all about :)
                  > >
                  > > Etznab
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: susan vanwijlen <susiemieuxmieux@>
                  > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Sat, Sep 26, 2009 2:40 pm
                  > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
                  > > from Surmad!
                  > >
                  > >  
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hello All,
                  > >
                  > > We all know plagiarism occurs everywhere. The Christian Bible was
                  > > plagiarized and aleterd so many times, who really knows what Jesus
                  > > really did. If we read the Bible, we conclude Jesus was some super
                  > > human. Yet there are no records in recorded history of any super human
                  > > magician. And of course we have the miracle conception of Christ. So
                  > > did the writers of the Bible plagiarize? You bet they did.
                  > >
                  > > Did Paul Twitchell plagiarize? Of course he did. So di
                  > > d the writers of
                  > > the Koran and the writers of any religious text. It's all been done
                  > > before.
                  > >
                  > > So where am I going with this?
                  > >
                  > > This is it. You must find your own path and follow it. It's that
                  > > simple. Personally I like Eckankar. Maybe you don't. The Truth is out
                  > > there. Very little of the truth is written. The Truth is best
                  > > experienced and not written. Truth is relative. What I
                  > > believe to be truth to me are lies to some one else. Just talk to an
                  > > American and a Muslim fanatic. You will get 2 different views of the
                  > > same event. Thus there are 2 Truths based on the same event. Does that
                  > > surprise you? It should not.
                  > >
                  > > In the end you must follow your heart and let your heart guide you to
                  > > the Spiritual Experiences you need.
                  > >
                  > > This may not be what you want to hear, but it's what intuition tells me
                  > > to write to you. Follow your own path. Or as an Eckankar High Initiate
                  > > repeatedly tells me "YOU ARE A MINI GOD AND THE MASTER OF YOUR OWN
                  > > DESTINY".
                  > >
                  > > Sincerely yours,
                  > >
                  > > Susie
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- On Sat, 9/26/09, etznab@ etznab@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > From: etznab@ etznab@
                  > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
                  > > from Surmad!
                  > > To:
                  > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Received: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 6:22 AM
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >  
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Good point Prometheus.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I've seen how Krishna and the Bhagavadg
                  > > ita
                  > >
                  > > are looked at differently over the years in Eck
                  > >
                  > > literature.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Julian Johnson writes about Krishna in the
                  > >
                  > > negative, too, his message, I think.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > However, I believe it's in The Key to ECKANKAR
                  > >
                  > > (1968) where Rebazar talks about Eck Masters &
                  > >
                  > > their role in (was it helping to?) write certain of the
                  > >
                  > > world's spiritual books. The Bhagavadgita is one of
                  > >
                  > > them!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I'll have to find that section and see what it says
                  > >
                  > > exactly, to be clear.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Etznab
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > >
                  > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                  > >
                  > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                  > >
                  > > Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:36 pm
                  > >
                  > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
                  > > from
                  > >
                  > > Surmad!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >  
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hello All,
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Twitchell was known for his letter
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > substitutions (among other manipulations)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > in order to disguise many of his plagiarisms.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yet, many ECKists don't see the harm,
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > except, it's all a distortion of the Real
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Truth!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ******
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "Abstract sound as defined by the Sufis
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 'Saute Surmad', means: the whole universe
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > is filled with it. Sufis call the primal sound
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 'Saute Surmad', the tone that fills the cosmos.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The frequencies of this tone are too fine to
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > be seen20with the eyes or heard with the ear...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > It was 'Saute Surmad', the tone of the abstract
                  > >
                  > > 0D
                  > >
                  > > which Muhammad perceived when he was
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > enlightened in the cave of Gare Hira. The Koran
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > also knows the sound that says: 'Let there be...'.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Moses heard the same sound on the mount Sinai
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > in his union with god, the same word became
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > obvious to Jesus when he was in union with the
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > heavenly father in the wilderness. Shiva heard
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > the same 'Anahad Nada' in her Samadhi in the
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > caves of the Himalaya.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The flute of Krishna is the symbol of this tone.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > This sound is the source of all manifestation,
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > given to the masters from within.... "The knower
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > of the mystery of sound knows the mystery
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > of the whole universe." - Hazrat Inayat Kahn
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ******
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > BTW- Here's the EK Lexicon definition
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > for the "cave of Gare-Hare:"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "The Temple of Golden Wisdom located
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > in the spiritual city of Agam Des, home
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > of the Eshwar-Khanewale, the God-eaters.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yaubl Scabi is the guardian of the second
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > section of the Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad here."
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > And, (also from the EK Lexicon) -
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "Agam Des. A spiritual city on the earth
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > planet located in the Hindu Kush mountains,=0
                  > > D
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > whose spiritual leader is Yaubl Scabi... It
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > is visited in the Atma Sarup, the Soul body,
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > by invitation only; inaccessible world, or
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > place."
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Note: The above definition for Agam
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Des states this is the "inaccessible world,"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > and the Agam LOK is the "inaccessible
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > plane." Thus this 9th Plane Agam Lok
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "Temple" is located in a spiritual city
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > (Agam Des) on "the earth planet!"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Isn't there a conflict with the vibratory
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > rates of the earth (physical) and the 9th
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > plane? Is this another paradox, or is this
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > a parallel universe sort of thing? Confusion
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > keeps Eckists off balance and always second
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > guessing their Mahanta - Catch-22!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > p.s. I noticed that Inayat Khan mentions
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "the FLUTE of Krishna" in this article on
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Saute Surmad (Sugmad). I looked at the
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Worlds of ECK Chart in the back of the
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > EK Lexicon and saw that the (Tone or Sound)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "single note of the FLUTE" is associated
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > with the CHANT of SUGMAD! Is this a
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > coincidence that Khan and Twit are saying
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > similar things? Not when PT is a known
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > plagiarist! And, this info does show another
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > connection, of dots, as to HOW PT crea
                  > > ted
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Eckankar!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 0D
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized
                  > > for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!
                  > >
                  >
                • mishmisha9
                  Just to help a little bit, here is an excerpt from wikipedia regarding Darwin Gross and eckankar: Today, the official Eckankar website does not mention Darwin
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 28, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Just to help a little bit, here is an excerpt from wikipedia regarding
                    Darwin Gross and eckankar:

                    Today, the official Eckankar website does not mention Darwin Gross or acknowledge his place in the development of Eckankar. All books, lessons, tapes and other materials connected to "Sri" Gross have been removed completely from the history of the present day Eckankar movement.

                    On Saturday, March 8th 2008, at 10:35 a.m. PST, Darwin Gross died at the age of 80 years old, leaving behind a legacy of spiritual knowledge. According to the ATOM website, "Darwin's Living Trust provides that his writings, music and unpublished works shall be held in trust to carry on his memory and life's work as well as his predecessor's, Sri Paul Twitchell. The Teachings will continue to be made available to those who are interested in this most direct path to God."

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Oh, dear, Susie! How can you not know that Darwin died?
                    > Well, yes, Klemp didn't bother to make an announcement when
                    > he passed even though many eckists on the internet on various
                    > sites did say some kind words about Darwin at his passing. And
                    > many were surprised and disappointed by Klemp's silence.
                    > To me, Klemp's silence was still yet another example of Klemp's
                    > inability to relate to others, to feel true compassion and love . . .
                    > Pity really that so many are following such a cold hearted and
                    > mean spirited delusional con man. It is a shame that chelas
                    > give Klemp the power to disrupt their lives, isolate and insulate
                    > them from the real world and even worse to impede and stop critical
                    > thinking! Because to follow eckankar and Klemp, a chela
                    > must stop thinking critically!!
                    >
                    > I can well imagine that ESA is disturbing to you, but rather than
                    > to debate or argue about eckankar, why not spend the time
                    > reading the old posts here and also the information in the files.
                    > If you have questions, I'm sure some here will try to help answer
                    > them. But basically do some reading and start thinking about
                    > some of these discussions and information . . . make your own
                    > conclusions. . . and then you will be practicing free will by utilizing
                    > your talents of critical thinking! Think for yourself . . . this is something
                    > that eckankar does not teach or want! Good luck and best wishes!
                    >
                    > Mish
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "susiemieuxmieux" <susiemieuxmieux@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I will send an e-mail to Darwin Gross and ask him if Paul Twitchell ever plagiarized. Since Darwin Gross took over Eckakar after Paul Twitchell translated I think Darwin Gross would be the best person to answer that question. I will keep you posted on their response.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Did Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp or Eckankar
                    > > > ever publicly declare Paul Twitchell plagiarized?
                    > > >
                    > > > I remember Harold Klemp referring to Paul as
                    > > > a "master compiler". Gathering and taking the
                    > > > best, whatever.
                    > > >
                    > > > The problem, as I see it, that is troublesome
                    > > > for some (not all) concerns the sources credited.
                    > > >
                    > > > Perhaps some people don't naturally take to
                    > > > the notion Paul used literary fiction to animate
                    > > > the teachings he gathered. I mean, by changing
                    > > > names and changing spellings for certain people
                    > > > and certain words to disassociate any negative
                    > > > stereotypes from the teaching (path) as he saw
                    > > > fit to describe it.
                    > > >
                    > > > It is easy to look at such practices as a form
                    > > > of deception, but I don't think deception is what
                    > > > people can't condone (forgive). What I think the
                    > > > unforgiving attitudes feed on most is the belief
                    > > > that "Eckankar" has never publicly admitted the
                    > > > "deception". Never come out and explained the
                    > > > myths and clarified the fictions from the facts.
                    > > >
                    > > > Organized religions are historically known to
                    > > > take certain liberties blurring the lines between
                    > > > fiction and fact. An organization, or corporation
                    > > > is not a "living" being though, IMO, despite the
                    > > > words they try to wear. Living people give them
                    > > > life. Living people breathe the words.
                    > > >
                    > > > (Perhaps some people are convinced truth can
                    > > > only be an individual undertaking & organized
                    > > > religion will forever remain inept to give the life
                    > > > and the truth that will set them free.
                    > > > I don't ex-
                    > > > actly know.)
                    > > >
                    > > > IMO, people are not going to stop writing the
                    > > > hateful and critical blogs so long as they continue
                    > > > to believe Eckankar is intentionally being deceptive
                    > > > and intentionally hiding the truth. If I am wrong and
                    > > > this is not a correct instinct then somebody should
                    > > > certainly weigh in and elaborate why.
                    > > >
                    > > > To be honest, I see an ongoing contest between
                    > > > organized religion to preserve certain liberties and
                    > > > to mystify certain truths (on the one hand) and the
                    > > > spirit of individuality to pursue certain liberties and
                    > > > to dispell certain myths. One is inanimate and the
                    > > > other animate. The animate can never become the
                    > > > inanimate. IMHO. And that's what it's all about :)
                    > > >
                    > > > Etznab
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: susan vanwijlen <susiemieuxmieux@>
                    > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Sat, Sep 26, 2009 2:40 pm
                    > > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
                    > > > from Surmad!
                    > > >
                    > > >  
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello All,
                    > > >
                    > > > We all know plagiarism occurs everywhere. The Christian Bible was
                    > > > plagiarized and aleterd so many times, who really knows what Jesus
                    > > > really did. If we read the Bible, we conclude Jesus was some super
                    > > > human. Yet there are no records in recorded history of any super human
                    > > > magician. And of course we have the miracle conception of Christ. So
                    > > > did the writers of the Bible plagiarize? You bet they did.
                    > > >
                    > > > Did Paul Twitchell plagiarize? Of course he did. So di
                    > > > d the writers of
                    > > > the Koran and the writers of any religious text. It's all been done
                    > > > before.
                    > > >
                    > > > So where am I going with this?
                    > > >
                    > > > This is it. You must find your own path and follow it. It's that
                    > > > simple. Personally I like Eckankar. Maybe you don't. The Truth is out
                    > > > there. Very little of the truth is written. The Truth is best
                    > > > experienced and not written. Truth is relative. What I
                    > > > believe to be truth to me are lies to some one else. Just talk to an
                    > > > American and a Muslim fanatic. You will get 2 different views of the
                    > > > same event. Thus there are 2 Truths based on the same event. Does that
                    > > > surprise you? It should not.
                    > > >
                    > > > In the end you must follow your heart and let your heart guide you to
                    > > > the Spiritual Experiences you need.
                    > > >
                    > > > This may not be what you want to hear, but it's what intuition tells me
                    > > > to write to you. Follow your own path. Or as an Eckankar High Initiate
                    > > > repeatedly tells me "YOU ARE A MINI GOD AND THE MASTER OF YOUR OWN
                    > > > DESTINY".
                    > > >
                    > > > Sincerely yours,
                    > > >
                    > > > Susie
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- On Sat, 9/26/09, etznab@ etznab@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > From: etznab@ etznab@
                    > > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
                    > > > from Surmad!
                    > > > To:
                    > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Received: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 6:22 AM
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >  
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Good point Prometheus.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I've seen how Krishna and the Bhagavadg
                    > > > ita
                    > > >
                    > > > are looked at differently over the years in Eck
                    > > >
                    > > > literature.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Julian Johnson writes about Krishna in the
                    > > >
                    > > > negative, too, his message, I think.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > However, I believe it's in The Key to ECKANKAR
                    > > >
                    > > > (1968) where Rebazar talks about Eck Masters &
                    > > >
                    > > > their role in (was it helping to?) write certain of the
                    > > >
                    > > > world's spiritual books. The Bhagavadgita is one of
                    > > >
                    > > > them!
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I'll have to find that section and see what it says
                    > > >
                    > > > exactly, to be clear.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Etznab
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > >
                    > > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                    > > >
                    > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                    > > >
                    > > > Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:36 pm
                    > > >
                    > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
                    > > > from
                    > > >
                    > > > Surmad!
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >  
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello All,
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Twitchell was known for his letter
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > substitutions (among other manipulations)
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > in order to disguise many of his plagiarisms.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Yet, many ECKists don't see the harm,
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > except, it's all a distortion of the Real
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Truth!
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ******
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > "Abstract sound as defined by the Sufis
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 'Saute Surmad', means: the whole universe
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > is filled with it. Sufis call the primal sound
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 'Saute Surmad', the tone that fills the cosmos.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > The frequencies of this tone are too fine to
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > be seen20with the eyes or heard with the ear...
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > It was 'Saute Surmad', the tone of the abstract
                    > > >
                    > > > 0D
                    > > >
                    > > > which Muhammad perceived when he was
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > enlightened in the cave of Gare Hira. The Koran
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > also knows the sound that says: 'Let there be...'.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Moses heard the same sound on the mount Sinai
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > in his union with god, the same word became
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > obvious to Jesus when he was in union with the
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > heavenly father in the wilderness. Shiva heard
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > the same 'Anahad Nada' in her Samadhi in the
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > caves of the Himalaya.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > The flute of Krishna is the symbol of this tone.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > This sound is the source of all manifestation,
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > given to the masters from within.... "The knower
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > of the mystery of sound knows the mystery
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > of the whole universe." - Hazrat Inayat Kahn
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ******
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > BTW- Here's the EK Lexicon definition
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > for the "cave of Gare-Hare:"
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > "The Temple of Golden Wisdom located
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > in the spiritual city of Agam Des, home
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > of the Eshwar-Khanewale, the God-eaters.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Yaubl Scabi is the guardian of the second
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > section of the Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad here."
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > And, (also from the EK Lexicon) -
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > "Agam Des. A spiritual city on the earth
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > planet located in the Hindu Kush mountains,=0
                    > > > D
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > whose spiritual leader is Yaubl Scabi... It
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > is visited in the Atma Sarup, the Soul body,
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > by invitation only; inaccessible world, or
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > place."
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Note: The above definition for Agam
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Des states this is the "inaccessible world,"
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > and the Agam LOK is the "inaccessible
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > plane." Thus this 9th Plane Agam Lok
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > "Temple" is located in a spiritual city
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > (Agam Des) on "the earth planet!"
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Isn't there a conflict with the vibratory
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > rates of the earth (physical) and the 9th
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > plane? Is this another paradox, or is this
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > a parallel universe sort of thing? Confusion
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > keeps Eckists off balance and always second
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > guessing their Mahanta - Catch-22!
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > p.s. I noticed that Inayat Khan mentions
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > "the FLUTE of Krishna" in this article on
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Saute Surmad (Sugmad). I looked at the
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Worlds of ECK Chart in the back of the
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > EK Lexicon and saw that the (Tone or Sound)
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > "single note of the FLUTE" is associated
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > with the CHANT of SUGMAD! Is this a
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > coincidence that Khan and Twit are saying
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > similar things? Not when PT is a known
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > plagiarist! And, this info does show another
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > connection, of dots, as to HOW PT crea
                    > > > ted
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Eckankar!
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 0D
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized
                    > > > for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • susan vanwijlen
                    Oh Dear Mish. I did not know Darwin died because I joined Eckankar in 1993. Darwin had left Eckankar and his name never came up in any discussion. Hence I
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 29, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Oh Dear Mish. I did not know Darwin died because I joined Eckankar in 1993. Darwin had left Eckankar and his name never came up in any discussion. Hence I never even knew he existed. That is how I did not know he died in 2008.

                      --- On Mon, 9/28/09, mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:

                      From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: How Twitchell created Sugmad from Surmad!
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Received: Monday, September 28, 2009, 10:36 PM

                       

                      Oh, dear, Susie! How can you not know that Darwin died?
                      Well, yes, Klemp didn't bother to make an announcement when
                      he passed even though many eckists on the internet on various
                      sites did say some kind words about Darwin at his passing. And
                      many were surprised and disappointed by Klemp's silence.
                      To me, Klemp's silence was still yet another example of Klemp's
                      inability to relate to others, to feel true compassion and love . . .
                      Pity really that so many are following such a cold hearted and
                      mean spirited delusional con man. It is a shame that chelas
                      give Klemp the power to disrupt their lives, isolate and insulate
                      them from the real world and even worse to impede and stop critical
                      thinking! Because to follow eckankar and Klemp, a chela
                      must stop thinking critically!!

                      I can well imagine that ESA is disturbing to you, but rather than
                      to debate or argue about eckankar, why not spend the time
                      reading the old posts here and also the information in the files.
                      If you have questions, I'm sure some here will try to help answer
                      them. But basically do some reading and start thinking about
                      some of these discussions and information . . . make your own
                      conclusions. . . and then you will be practicing free will by utilizing
                      your talents of critical thinking! Think for yourself . . . this is something
                      that eckankar does not teach or want! Good luck and best wishes!

                      Mish

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "susiemieuxmieux" <susiemieuxmieux@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I will send an e-mail to Darwin Gross and ask him if Paul Twitchell ever plagiarized. Since Darwin Gross took over Eckakar after Paul Twitchell translated I think Darwin Gross would be the best person to answer that question. I will keep you posted on their response.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Did Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp or Eckankar
                      > > ever publicly declare Paul Twitchell plagiarized?
                      > >
                      > > I remember Harold Klemp referring to Paul as
                      > > a "master compiler". Gathering and taking the
                      > > best, whatever.
                      > >
                      > > The problem, as I see it, that is troublesome
                      > > for some (not all) concerns the sources credited.
                      > >
                      > > Perhaps some people don't naturally take to
                      > > the notion Paul used literary fiction to animate
                      > > the teachings he gathered. I mean, by changing
                      > > names and changing spellings for certain people
                      > > and certain words to disassociate any negative
                      > > stereotypes from the teaching (path) as he saw
                      > > fit to describe it.
                      > >
                      > > It is easy to look at such practices as a form
                      > > of deception, but I don't think deception is what
                      > > people can't condone (forgive). What I think the
                      > > unforgiving attitudes feed on most is the belief
                      > > that "Eckankar" has never publicly admitted the
                      > > "deception". Never come out and explained the
                      > > myths and clarified the fictions from the facts.
                      > >
                      > > Organized religions are historically known to
                      > > take certain liberties blurring the lines between
                      > > fiction and fact. An organization, or corporation
                      > > is not a "living" being though, IMO, despite the
                      > > words they try to wear. Living people give them
                      > > life. Living people breathe the words.
                      > >
                      > > (Perhaps some people are convinced truth can
                      > > only be an individual undertaking & organized
                      > > religion will forever remain inept to give the life
                      > > and the truth that will set them free.
                      > > I don't ex-
                      > > actly know.)
                      > >
                      > > IMO, people are not going to stop writing the
                      > > hateful and critical blogs so long as they continue
                      > > to believe Eckankar is intentionally being deceptive
                      > > and intentionally hiding the truth. If I am wrong and
                      > > this is not a correct instinct then somebody should
                      > > certainly weigh in and elaborate why.
                      > >
                      > > To be honest, I see an ongoing contest between
                      > > organized religion to preserve certain liberties and
                      > > to mystify certain truths (on the one hand) and the
                      > > spirit of individuality to pursue certain liberties and
                      > > to dispell certain myths. One is inanimate and the
                      > > other animate. The animate can never become the
                      > > inanimate. IMHO. And that's what it's all about :)
                      > >
                      > > Etznab
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: susan vanwijlen <susiemieuxmieux@ >
                      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                      > > Sent: Sat, Sep 26, 2009 2:40 pm
                      > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
                      > > from Surmad!
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hello All,
                      > >
                      > > We all know plagiarism occurs everywhere. The Christian Bible was
                      > > plagiarized and aleterd so many times, who really knows what Jesus
                      > > really did. If we read the Bible, we conclude Jesus was some super
                      > > human. Yet there are no records in recorded history of any super human
                      > > magician. And of course we have the miracle conception of Christ. So
                      > > did the writers of the Bible plagiarize? You bet they did.
                      > >
                      > > Did Paul Twitchell plagiarize? Of course he did. So di
                      > > d the writers of
                      > > the Koran and the writers of any religious text. It's all been done
                      > > before.
                      > >
                      > > So where am I going with this?
                      > >
                      > > This is it. You must find your own path and follow it. It's that
                      > > simple. Personally I like Eckankar. Maybe you don't. The Truth is out
                      > > there. Very little of the truth is written. The Truth is best
                      > > experienced and not written. Truth is relative. What I
                      > > believe to be truth to me are lies to some one else. Just talk to an
                      > > American and a Muslim fanatic. You will get 2 different views of the
                      > > same event. Thus there are 2 Truths based on the same event. Does that
                      > > surprise you? It should not.
                      > >
                      > > In the end you must follow your heart and let your heart guide you to
                      > > the Spiritual Experiences you need.
                      > >
                      > > This may not be what you want to hear, but it's what intuition tells me
                      > > to write to you. Follow your own path. Or as an Eckankar High Initiate
                      > > repeatedly tells me "YOU ARE A MINI GOD AND THE MASTER OF YOUR OWN
                      > > DESTINY".
                      > >
                      > > Sincerely yours,
                      > >
                      > > Susie
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- On Sat, 9/26/09, etznab@ etznab@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > From: etznab@ etznab@
                      > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
                      > > from Surmad!
                      > > To:
                      > > EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                      > > Received: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 6:22 AM
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Good point Prometheus.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I've seen how Krishna and the Bhagavadg
                      > > ita
                      > >
                      > > are looked at differently over the years in Eck
                      > >
                      > > literature.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Julian Johnson writes about Krishna in the
                      > >
                      > > negative, too, his message, I think.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > However, I believe it's in The Key to ECKANKAR
                      > >
                      > > (1968) where Rebazar talks about Eck Masters &
                      > >
                      > > their role in (was it helping to?) write certain of the
                      > >
                      > > world's spiritual books. The Bhagavadgita is one of
                      > >
                      > > them!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I'll have to find that section and see what it says
                      > >
                      > > exactly, to be clear.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Etznab
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > >
                      > > From: prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com&gt;
                      > >
                      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                      > >
                      > > Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:36 pm
                      > >
                      > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
                      > > from
                      > >
                      > > Surmad!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hello All,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Twitchell was known for his letter
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > substitutions (among other manipulations)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > in order to disguise many of his plagiarisms.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yet, many ECKists don't see the harm,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > except, it's all a distortion of the Real
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Truth!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ******
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "Abstract sound as defined by the Sufis
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > 'Saute Surmad', means: the whole universe
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > is filled with it. Sufis call the primal sound
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > 'Saute Surmad', the tone that fills the cosmos.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The frequencies of this tone are too fine to
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > be seen20with the eyes or heard with the ear...
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > It was 'Saute Surmad', the tone of the abstract
                      > >
                      > > 0D
                      > >
                      > > which Muhammad perceived when he was
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > enlightened in the cave of Gare Hira. The Koran
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > also knows the sound that says: 'Let there be...'.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Moses heard the same sound on the mount Sinai
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > in his union with god, the same word became
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > obvious to Jesus when he was in union with the
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > heavenly father in the wilderness. Shiva heard
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > the same 'Anahad Nada' in her Samadhi in the
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > caves of the Himalaya.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The flute of Krishna is the symbol of this tone.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > This sound is the source of all manifestation,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > given to the masters from within.... "The knower
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > of the mystery of sound knows the mystery
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > of the whole universe." - Hazrat Inayat Kahn
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ******
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > BTW- Here's the EK Lexicon definition
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > for the "cave of Gare-Hare:"
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "The Temple of Golden Wisdom located
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > in the spiritual city of Agam Des, home
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > of the Eshwar-Khanewale, the God-eaters.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yaubl Scabi is the guardian of the second
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > section of the Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad here."
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > And, (also from the EK Lexicon) -
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "Agam Des. A spiritual city on the earth
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > planet located in the Hindu Kush mountains,=0
                      > > D
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > whose spiritual leader is Yaubl Scabi... It
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > is visited in the Atma Sarup, the Soul body,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > by invitation only; inaccessible world, or
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > place."
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Note: The above definition for Agam
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Des states this is the "inaccessible world,"
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > and the Agam LOK is the "inaccessible
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > plane." Thus this 9th Plane Agam Lok
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "Temple" is located in a spiritual city
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > (Agam Des) on "the earth planet!"
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Isn't there a conflict with the vibratory
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > rates of the earth (physical) and the 9th
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > plane? Is this another paradox, or is this
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > a parallel universe sort of thing? Confusion
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > keeps Eckists off balance and always second
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > guessing their Mahanta - Catch-22!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > p.s. I noticed that Inayat Khan mentions
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "the FLUTE of Krishna" in this article on
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Saute Surmad (Sugmad). I looked at the
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Worlds of ECK Chart in the back of the
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > EK Lexicon and saw that the (Tone or Sound)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "single note of the FLUTE" is associated
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > with the CHANT of SUGMAD! Is this a
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > coincidence that Khan and Twit are saying
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > similar things? Not when PT is a known
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > plagiarist! And, this info does show another
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > connection, of dots, as to HOW PT crea
                      > > ted
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Eckankar!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > 0D
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized
                      > > for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!
                      > >
                      >



                      Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail
                    • mishmisha9
                      Susie, I joined eckankar well after you did and didn t stay in as long as you have been a member. I learned about Darwin while I was a member so really odd
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 29, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Susie,

                        I joined eckankar well after you did and didn't stay in as long
                        as you have been a member. I learned about Darwin while I was a member so
                        really odd that now you say you didn't know he existed?? Kind of weird
                        but I suppose it can happen . . . I just thought you knew who Darwin was
                        when you said you'd email him.

                        Again, this is why eckists should not turn off critical thinking skills and/or
                        seclude themselves too deeply within the eck community . . . a lot of
                        factual information can pass you by!

                        Well, anyway, there is a lot of information about eckankar on the internet,
                        including this source site. I don't think one should believe anything without
                        questioning and analyzing it first. But eckankar promotes the leap of
                        faith concept in its belief system . . . because if one really looks into its
                        history and writings, it all falls apart!

                        Best wishes!

                        Mish


                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, susan vanwijlen <susiemieuxmieux@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Oh Dear Mish. I did not know Darwin died because I joined Eckankar in 1993. Darwin had left Eckankar and his name never came up in any discussion. Hence I never even knew he existed. That is how I did not know he died in 2008.
                        >
                        > --- On Mon, 9/28/09, mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: How Twitchell created Sugmad from Surmad!
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > Received: Monday, September 28, 2009, 10:36 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Oh, dear, Susie! How can you not know that Darwin died?
                        >
                        > Well, yes, Klemp didn't bother to make an announcement when
                        >
                        > he passed even though many eckists on the internet on various
                        >
                        > sites did say some kind words about Darwin at his passing. And
                        >
                        > many were surprised and disappointed by Klemp's silence.
                        >
                        > To me, Klemp's silence was still yet another example of Klemp's
                        >
                        > inability to relate to others, to feel true compassion and love . . .
                        >
                        > Pity really that so many are following such a cold hearted and
                        >
                        > mean spirited delusional con man. It is a shame that chelas
                        >
                        > give Klemp the power to disrupt their lives, isolate and insulate
                        >
                        > them from the real world and even worse to impede and stop critical
                        >
                        > thinking! Because to follow eckankar and Klemp, a chela
                        >
                        > must stop thinking critically!!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I can well imagine that ESA is disturbing to you, but rather than
                        >
                        > to debate or argue about eckankar, why not spend the time
                        >
                        > reading the old posts here and also the information in the files.
                        >
                        > If you have questions, I'm sure some here will try to help answer
                        >
                        > them. But basically do some reading and start thinking about
                        >
                        > some of these discussions and information . . . make your own
                        >
                        > conclusions. . . and then you will be practicing free will by utilizing
                        >
                        > your talents of critical thinking! Think for yourself . . . this is something
                        >
                        > that eckankar does not teach or want! Good luck and best wishes!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Mish
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "susiemieuxmieux" <susiemieuxmieux@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I will send an e-mail to Darwin Gross and ask him if Paul Twitchell ever plagiarized. Since Darwin Gross took over Eckakar after Paul Twitchell translated I think Darwin Gross would be the best person to answer that question. I will keep you posted on their response.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Did Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp or Eckankar
                        >
                        > > > ever publicly declare Paul Twitchell plagiarized?
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > I remember Harold Klemp referring to Paul as
                        >
                        > > > a "master compiler". Gathering and taking the
                        >
                        > > > best, whatever.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > The problem, as I see it, that is troublesome
                        >
                        > > > for some (not all) concerns the sources credited.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Perhaps some people don't naturally take to
                        >
                        > > > the notion Paul used literary fiction to animate
                        >
                        > > > the teachings he gathered. I mean, by changing
                        >
                        > > > names and changing spellings for certain people
                        >
                        > > > and certain words to disassociate any negative
                        >
                        > > > stereotypes from the teaching (path) as he saw
                        >
                        > > > fit to describe it.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > It is easy to look at such practices as a form
                        >
                        > > > of deception, but I don't think deception is what
                        >
                        > > > people can't condone (forgive). What I think the
                        >
                        > > > unforgiving attitudes feed on most is the belief
                        >
                        > > > that "Eckankar" has never publicly admitted the
                        >
                        > > > "deception". Never come out and explained the
                        >
                        > > > myths and clarified the fictions from the facts.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Organized religions are historically known to
                        >
                        > > > take certain liberties blurring the lines between
                        >
                        > > > fiction and fact. An organization, or corporation
                        >
                        > > > is not a "living" being though, IMO, despite the
                        >
                        > > > words they try to wear. Living people give them
                        >
                        > > > life. Living people breathe the words.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > (Perhaps some people are convinced truth can
                        >
                        > > > only be an individual undertaking & organized
                        >
                        > > > religion will forever remain inept to give the life
                        >
                        > > > and the truth that will set them free.
                        >
                        > > > I don't ex-
                        >
                        > > > actly know.)
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > IMO, people are not going to stop writing the
                        >
                        > > > hateful and critical blogs so long as they continue
                        >
                        > > > to believe Eckankar is intentionally being deceptive
                        >
                        > > > and intentionally hiding the truth. If I am wrong and
                        >
                        > > > this is not a correct instinct then somebody should
                        >
                        > > > certainly weigh in and elaborate why.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > To be honest, I see an ongoing contest between
                        >
                        > > > organized religion to preserve certain liberties and
                        >
                        > > > to mystify certain truths (on the one hand) and the
                        >
                        > > > spirit of individuality to pursue certain liberties and
                        >
                        > > > to dispell certain myths. One is inanimate and the
                        >
                        > > > other animate. The animate can never become the
                        >
                        > > > inanimate. IMHO. And that's what it's all about :)
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Etznab
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                        >
                        > > > From: susan vanwijlen <susiemieuxmieux@ >
                        >
                        > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                        >
                        > > > Sent: Sat, Sep 26, 2009 2:40 pm
                        >
                        > > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
                        >
                        > > > from Surmad!
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >  
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Hello All,
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > We all know plagiarism occurs everywhere. The Christian Bible was
                        >
                        > > > plagiarized and aleterd so many times, who really knows what Jesus
                        >
                        > > > really did. If we read the Bible, we conclude Jesus was some super
                        >
                        > > > human. Yet there are no records in recorded history of any super human
                        >
                        > > > magician. And of course we have the miracle conception of Christ. So
                        >
                        > > > did the writers of the Bible plagiarize? You bet they did.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Did Paul Twitchell plagiarize? Of course he did. So di
                        >
                        > > > d the writers of
                        >
                        > > > the Koran and the writers of any religious text. It's all been done
                        >
                        > > > before.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > So where am I going with this?
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > This is it. You must find your own path and follow it. It's that
                        >
                        > > > simple. Personally I like Eckankar. Maybe you don't. The Truth is out
                        >
                        > > > there. Very little of the truth is written. The Truth is best
                        >
                        > > > experienced and not written. Truth is relative. What I
                        >
                        > > > believe to be truth to me are lies to some one else. Just talk to an
                        >
                        > > > American and a Muslim fanatic. You will get 2 different views of the
                        >
                        > > > same event. Thus there are 2 Truths based on the same event. Does that
                        >
                        > > > surprise you? It should not.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > In the end you must follow your heart and let your heart guide you to
                        >
                        > > > the Spiritual Experiences you need.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > This may not be what you want to hear, but it's what intuition tells me
                        >
                        > > > to write to you. Follow your own path. Or as an Eckankar High Initiate
                        >
                        > > > repeatedly tells me "YOU ARE A MINI GOD AND THE MASTER OF YOUR OWN
                        >
                        > > > DESTINY".
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Sincerely yours,
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Susie
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > --- On Sat, 9/26/09, etznab@ etznab@ wrote:
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > From: etznab@ etznab@
                        >
                        > > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
                        >
                        > > > from Surmad!
                        >
                        > > > To:
                        >
                        > > > EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                        >
                        > > > Received: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 6:22 AM
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >  
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Good point Prometheus.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > I've seen how Krishna and the Bhagavadg
                        >
                        > > > ita
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > are looked at differently over the years in Eck
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > literature.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Julian Johnson writes about Krishna in the
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > negative, too, his message, I think.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > However, I believe it's in The Key to ECKANKAR
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > (1968) where Rebazar talks about Eck Masters &
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > their role in (was it helping to?) write certain of the
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > world's spiritual books. The Bhagavadgita is one of
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > them!
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > I'll have to find that section and see what it says
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > exactly, to be clear.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Etznab
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Sent: Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:36 pm
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] How Twitchell created Sugmad
                        >
                        > > > from
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Surmad!
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >  
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Hello All,
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Twitchell was known for his letter
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > substitutions (among other manipulations)
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > in order to disguise many of his plagiarisms.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Yet, many ECKists don't see the harm,
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > except, it's all a distortion of the Real
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Truth!
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > ******
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > "Abstract sound as defined by the Sufis
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > 'Saute Surmad', means: the whole universe
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > is filled with it. Sufis call the primal sound
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > 'Saute Surmad', the tone that fills the cosmos.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > The frequencies of this tone are too fine to
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > be seen20with the eyes or heard with the ear...
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > It was 'Saute Surmad', the tone of the abstract
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > 0D
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > which Muhammad perceived when he was
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > enlightened in the cave of Gare Hira. The Koran
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > also knows the sound that says: 'Let there be...'.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Moses heard the same sound on the mount Sinai
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > in his union with god, the same word became
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > obvious to Jesus when he was in union with the
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > heavenly father in the wilderness. Shiva heard
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > the same 'Anahad Nada' in her Samadhi in the
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > caves of the Himalaya.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > The flute of Krishna is the symbol of this tone.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > This sound is the source of all manifestation,
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > given to the masters from within.... "The knower
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > of the mystery of sound knows the mystery
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > of the whole universe." - Hazrat Inayat Kahn
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > ******
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > BTW- Here's the EK Lexicon definition
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > for the "cave of Gare-Hare:"
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > "The Temple of Golden Wisdom located
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > in the spiritual city of Agam Des, home
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > of the Eshwar-Khanewale, the God-eaters.
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Yaubl Scabi is the guardian of the second
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > section of the Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad here."
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > And, (also from the EK Lexicon) -
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > "Agam Des. A spiritual city on the earth
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > planet located in the Hindu Kush mountains,=0
                        >
                        > > > D
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > whose spiritual leader is Yaubl Scabi... It
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > is visited in the Atma Sarup, the Soul body,
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > by invitation only; inaccessible world, or
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > place."
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Note: The above definition for Agam
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Des states this is the "inaccessible world,"
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > and the Agam LOK is the "inaccessible
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > plane." Thus this 9th Plane Agam Lok
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > "Temple" is located in a spiritual city
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > (Agam Des) on "the earth planet!"
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Isn't there a conflict with the vibratory
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > rates of the earth (physical) and the 9th
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > plane? Is this another paradox, or is this
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > a parallel universe sort of thing? Confusion
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > keeps Eckists off balance and always second
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > guessing their Mahanta - Catch-22!
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > p.s. I noticed that Inayat Khan mentions
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > "the FLUTE of Krishna" in this article on
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Saute Surmad (Sugmad). I looked at the
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Worlds of ECK Chart in the back of the
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > EK Lexicon and saw that the (Tone or Sound)
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > "single note of the FLUTE" is associated
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > with the CHANT of SUGMAD! Is this a
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > coincidence that Khan and Twit are saying
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > similar things? Not when PT is a known
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > plagiarist! And, this info does show another
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > connection, of dots, as to HOW PT crea
                        >
                        > > > ted
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > Eckankar!
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > 0D
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > > > The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized
                        >
                        > > > for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!
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                        > > >
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                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________________________
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