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Those EK 7th Initiations!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, After looking at my estimates of how many 7ths, 8ths, 9ths, and 12ths that Klemp should have given out, after 27 years, I realize now that my
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 17, 2009
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      Hello All,
      After looking at my estimates of
      how many 7ths, 8ths, 9ths, and
      12ths that Klemp should have given
      out, after 27 years, I realize now
      that my estimated numbers of what
      they should be (worldwide), for the
      7th initiation, is way too low! HK
      hasn't promoted that many to the
      7th initiation!

      There are now probably around 800
      current 7th Initiates, (about 1,000
      7ths were given out by DG and 100
      by PT), however, there should be more
      than four times as many as this by
      now! Of course, attrition has to be
      accounted for due to death or leaving
      the org. and/or failure to maintain
      the "requested" outer membership
      donation fee. Thus, Klemp is to
      blame here (for the low numbers)
      as well!

      All 7th Initiates Should Not have
      to pay, or renew, their outer and
      Inner Initiation via outer membership
      fees! 7ths wanting to leave the
      "Church" should have to resign,
      or be excommunicated! H.I.s Should
      Not be demoted or kicked to the
      curb for Not Paying a Maintenance
      (membership) Fee!

      Eckankar, on it's own, may have
      fulfilled PT's dream of becoming
      a "Worldwide Religion," however,
      PT's dream/scam has become "fulfilled"
      via the Internet (naturally) and despite
      Klemp's negative and inadequate
      leadership!

      Perhaps Klemp, and his manipulation
      of the "EK," or his "ECK Masters," will
      take credit for the "Internet" as well!
      Klemp's delusional version and rewrite
      of history has Fubbi and Rebazar helping
      Columbus to discover the Americas because
      EK Master Fubbi noticed that Europeans
      needed more "protein." Of course Klemp,
      conveniently, omits the search for gold
      and silver or the murder, rape, slavery,
      and disease and all the other exploitations
      that Columbus Rebazar, and Fubbi brought
      to the indigenous people of the New World!

      And, in Truth, Klemp has caused almost
      as many longtime chelas and H.I.'s to leave
      the EK Church (in his 27 years) than those
      joining, and staying, for three years.

      Prometheus


      prometheus wrote:

      Hello Moby and All,
      Yes, this idea of people coming into
      contact with ESA's (H.I.s) is seen as
      a "spiritual" blessing/Fate Karma for
      the lower initiate where their consciousness/
      vibrations will be speeded up in order
      to match, or come into sync with that
      of the Holier High Initiate via the Mahanta's
      intervention. To be a H.I. under Klemp
      is to come under his influence of vanity
      and delusion. As Above, So Below!

      Thus, H.I.s play the "as if" game and
      pretend. In truth they are trapped inside
      a box of religious dogma that has negative/
      lower plane requirements for more and more
      service.

      And, after all, Klemp has given NO MORE
      spiritual insights than Twitchell gave 39 years
      ago! Klemp has simply spun some updated
      regurgitations of PT's "borrowed" info while
      making some "outer" changes. This, unfortunately,
      has distracted the EK H.I. membership from
      their original goals of when they first joined
      "the private club" some 30-45 years ago!

      What ever happened to "Spiritual Liberation
      AND Self-Mastery in THIS Lifetime?"

      The above two goals can't ever be achieved
      when Klemp doesn't hand out enough Higher
      Initiations! Klemp is selfish, mean spirited,
      and fearful of being challenged for leadership.
      Look at what he did to Darwin and Graham!
      When he smiles he's thinking how he's fooled
      so many for so long! As initiation rank gets
      higher I.Q. becomes lower! Closed mindedness
      has negative results.

      In truth, after 27 years, there should
      be at least 3 Twelfth Initiates (named),
      18 Ninth Initiates (named), 180 Eighth
      Initiates, and 1800 Seventh Initiates!
      Really! Eckists should think about this.
      Klemp isn't who or what he has claimed
      to be and hasn't delivered on these two
      main promises that Eckankar makes to
      everyone first joining... and that's a fact!

      Prometheus



      whitemoby wrote:

      I can't recall when the Eck illusion
      started to crack open for me. But,
      the following incident, at least,
      caused the seams to open:

      A woman, completely new to eckankar,
      started coming to the local center,
      hanging around a lot. I won't get into
      details, but she started dating our top
      ESA. Wedding bells were ringing.

      One day, in a satsang or something,
      an HI stated that this new woman, the
      ESA-dating woman, was on a spiritual
      fast track. Now, I am always happy to
      see two people find love, but I could
      not understand why it was that she was
      on a fast track. The HI said she HAD to
      be on a fast track otherwise she and the
      ESA would not be together. I thought,
      well, I could have dated that ESA myself.
      Would I then be on the Mahanta's
      thoroughbred list?

      Man oh man. The chips started to
      fall for me.

      I also saw how financially successful
      people were initiated faster and further.

      Moby...
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Moby, Yes, Klemp has been promoting the fast track, and the spiritual track for some time now. It s mostly a seminar workshop thing. However, EK
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 23, 2009
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        Hello Moby,
        Yes, Klemp has been promoting the
        "fast" track, and the "spiritual" track
        for some time now. It's mostly a seminar
        "workshop" thing.

        However, EK women tend to do the
        "heavy lifting" in Eckankar. They are
        pacified with titles and contradictions
        and are given a lot of "busy work" to
        distract them from thinking too much
        and asking questions. Silence and Surrender
        tend to keep them in their "place" even
        though when becoming H.I.s they are
        called "BROTHERS of the Leaf" - PT's
        (and HK's) play on words!

        The definition for the "Vairagi Adepts"
        (pg. 222, EK Lexicon) states that this
        is an "esoteric group" of 'JUST MEN.'
        However, PT created one female EK
        Master "Kata Daki" (K.D.) in memory
        of his sister (Kay-Dee), and to appease
        the female H.I.s doing most of the work,
        as well as, to Gail.

        Then again, women can't become a
        12th LEM (let alone the Mahanta) while
        living in a physical body due to their
        "Negative" (atom) vibrations! Did the
        imaginary "Kata Daki" get her 12th on
        the outer or inner? It must have been
        the "Inner" since the world's vibratory
        rate (consciousness) was much more
        coarse way back then and women were
        even more "negative," or were they?

        Why is there only ONE Female EK Master
        that was "made" 1,000, or more, years
        ago? HK states that "her true age is beyond
        belief." It would make more sense if Kata
        Daki was made a member of the Vairagi
        Order 100 years ago when her "Negative"
        female vibrations were more harmonious
        with the expanding world consciousness!

        BTW- Apparently Kata Daki still maintains
        a physical body like Rubber Tires (Rebazar
        Tarzs)!

        Eureka! A new perspective and a new
        ekplanation. In playing devil's advocate,
        for Klemp, I've come up with another
        probability (excuse) for HK to use in
        regard to the Kata Daki phenomena (lie).

        IF Kata Daki lived during the Golden
        Age, or even the Silver Age, the feminine
        "negative" atom principle would, thus,
        have had much less effect and less
        influence.

        Or, there could have been more contrast
        between the two poles since the "positive"
        influence would have been stronger and
        greater, thus, the neg. atom feminine principle
        would have to of been weaker than it is
        today.

        However, as the world came closer to the
        coarser vibrations of the more Negative
        Kali Yuga this would explain why there
        weren't and can't be anymore female EK
        Masters since this Eckankar religious dogma
        of the negative feminine principle would
        become stronger!

        This is really bad news for Joan! It proves
        that if Harry makes his 9th initiate wife, Joan,
        a 12th Initiate and EK Master this October
        (or any female anytime) that this would be
        in direct conflict with Eckankar dogma!

        Of course, two negatives make a positive!
        Thus, the negativity of the Kali Yuga and
        the feminine negative atom principle could
        make this a better time for a female LEM!
        Maybe this factor/effect is what actually
        caused Harry's EMR health problems, but
        he's too much of a male chauvinist to let
        go of the ROD! This attachment to power
        could be seen as proof that Klemp is a
        "past" Master... like Darwin.

        BTW- While looking at Klemp's 1998
        EK Lexicon I saw some definitions that
        caught my attention.

        "Path of the Trinity. Three questions to
        ask oneself when in doubt about an action:
        Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?"

        It's funny that Klemp uses Buddha's words
        just as Twitchell did and doesn't give credit
        to the original source. It's probably because
        HK didn't realize Paul stole this quote from
        Buddha! LOL! Where's the LEM's outer
        awareness, or the Mahanta's "Inner Awareness?"



        "prophecy. The art of foreseeing events
        before they happen; prophecy and deja
        vu (for seeing what has already happened)
        are the modus operandi of the ECK-Vidya,
        the ancient science of prophecy used by
        the Adepts of Eckankar."

        I will have to give Klemp credit for his
        M.O. of using "deja vu" (20/20 hind-sight)
        and his delusional and distorted imagination
        and misuse of truth for a self-promoting
        rewrite of history!



        Here's an EK Lexicon definition that follows
        the pure positive MALE (father) principle:

        "principle of HU. The original word current,
        HU, is the FATHER of all motions, forces,
        lights, sounds, and elements that subsequently
        came into existence."

        Notice that Klemp uses the past tense of
        "CAME into existence." Thus, HU was the
        "original word current," but is It's use relevant
        for current times? And, since this is part
        of the pure positive male principle, of the
        "Father," should those ECKists with the
        negative atom mother/female principle
        be using/chanting this original HU word?

        Doesn't/couldn't this create a conflict
        between the positive and negative that
        would have worldwide karmic repercussions!
        Should a mass of people (male and female
        pos. & neg. atoms with various levels of
        consciousness (initiation levels) be chanting
        the "original word current" of the "Father"
        the "HU" at the EK Worldwide Seminar Sunday
        Morning HU Chant? Should these Eckists
        and non-Eckists be using (playing with)
        this "charged word?" Has Klemp gone too
        far and has been too reckless?

        Klemp has a lot to answer for, however,
        the Teflon LEM/Mahanta always sidesteps
        the real issues. HK either simplifies these
        to an Astral feel good level, or he omits
        details and a broader perspective. Thus,
        he always leaves them hungry... for real
        spiritual food! Therefore, Eckists end up
        rationalizing, second guessing, and feeding
        themselves with imaginary explanations
        after reading his stories or hearing him
        speak.

        Many Eckists conclude that the testimonies/
        stories of the imagined happenings of other
        Chelas with EK Masters are real. This is the
        "as if" proof that gives them their belief that
        their religion is not only true but is the best,
        most advanced, fastest, the only, and most
        direct "path" to God. Strange, that these same
        Eckists haven't experienced the "deja vu"of
        those same testimonies and promises before!

        Prometheus


        Moby wrote:

        Let's face it: most women would have
        to run backwards, backwards at high
        speed, to get their "vibrations" in sync
        with an eck cleric.

        moby...


        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello Moby and All,
        > Yes, this idea of people coming into
        > contact with ESA's (H.I.s) is seen as
        > a "spiritual" blessing/Fate Karma for
        > the lower initiate where their consciousness/
        > vibrations will be speeded up in order
        > to match, or come into sync with that
        > of the Holier High Initiate via the Mahanta's
        > intervention. To be a H.I. under Klemp
        > is to come under his influence of vanity
        > and delusion. As Above, So Below!
        >
        > Thus, H.I.s play the "as if" game and
        > pretend. In truth they are trapped inside
        > a box of religious dogma that has negative/
        > lower plane requirements for more and more
        > service.
        >
        > And, after all, Klemp has given NO MORE
        > spiritual insights than Twitchell gave 39 years
        > ago! Klemp has simply spun some updated
        > regurgitations of PT's "borrowed" info while
        > making some "outer" changes. This, unfortunately,
        > has distracted the EK H.I. membership from
        > their original goals of when they first joined
        > "the private club" some 30-45 years ago!
        >
        > What ever happened to "Spiritual Liberation
        > AND Self-Mastery in THIS Lifetime?"
        >
        > The above two goals can't ever be achieved
        > when Klemp doesn't hand out enough Higher
        > Initiations! Klemp is selfish, mean spirited,
        > and fearful of being challenged for leadership.
        > Look at what he did to Darwin and Graham!
        > When he smiles he's thinking how he's fooled
        > so many for so long! As initiation rank gets
        > higher I.Q. becomes lower! Closed mindedness
        > has negative results.
        >
        > In truth, after 27 years, there should
        > be at least 3 Twelfth Initiates (named),
        > 18 Ninth Initiates (named), 180 Eighth
        > Initiates, and 1800 Seventh Initiates!
        > Really! Eckists should think about this.
        > Klemp isn't who or what he has claimed
        > to be and hasn't delivered on these two
        > main promises that Eckankar makes to
        > everyone first joining... and that's a fact!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        >
        > whitemoby wrote:
        >
        > I can't recall when the Eck illusion
        > started to crack open for me. But,
        > the following incident, at least,
        > caused the seams to open:
        >
        > A woman, completely new to eckankar,
        > started coming to the local center,
        > hanging around a lot. I won't get into
        > details, but she started dating our top
        > ESA. Wedding bells were ringing.
        >
        > One day, in a satsang or something,
        > an HI stated that this new woman, the
        > ESA-dating woman, was on a spiritual
        > fast track. Now, I am always happy to
        > see two people find love, but I could
        > not understand why it was that she was
        > on a fast track. The HI said she HAD to
        > be on a fast track otherwise she and the
        > ESA would not be together. I thought,
        > well, I could have dated that ESA myself.
        > Would I then be on the Mahanta's
        > thoroughbred list?
        >
        > Man oh man. The chips started to
        > fall for me.
        >
        > I also saw how financially successful
        > people were initiated faster and further.
        >
        > Moby...
      • Moby
        Interesting post, prometheus, as always. Do you know what I think of when I think of Paul Twitchell and women? In one of his books he said that women did not
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 23, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Interesting post, prometheus, as always. Do you know what I think of when I think of Paul Twitchell and women? In one of his books he said that women did not have their own spiritual batteries. I can't recall the exact quote, but I will never for get it.

          Man oh man. My batteries may only be AAA, but trust me, I've got em.

          Moby...



          In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Moby,
          > Yes, Klemp has been promoting the
          > "fast" track, and the "spiritual" track
          > for some time now. It's mostly a seminar
          > "workshop" thing.
          >
          > However, EK women tend to do the
          > "heavy lifting" in Eckankar. They are
          > pacified with titles and contradictions
          > and are given a lot of "busy work" to
          > distract them from thinking too much
          > and asking questions. Silence and Surrender
          > tend to keep them in their "place" even
          > though when becoming H.I.s they are
          > called "BROTHERS of the Leaf" - PT's
          > (and HK's) play on words!
          >
          > The definition for the "Vairagi Adepts"
          > (pg. 222, EK Lexicon) states that this
          > is an "esoteric group" of 'JUST MEN.'
          > However, PT created one female EK
          > Master "Kata Daki" (K.D.) in memory
          > of his sister (Kay-Dee), and to appease
          > the female H.I.s doing most of the work,
          > as well as, to Gail.
          >
          > Then again, women can't become a
          > 12th LEM (let alone the Mahanta) while
          > living in a physical body due to their
          > "Negative" (atom) vibrations! Did the
          > imaginary "Kata Daki" get her 12th on
          > the outer or inner? It must have been
          > the "Inner" since the world's vibratory
          > rate (consciousness) was much more
          > coarse way back then and women were
          > even more "negative," or were they?
          >
          > Why is there only ONE Female EK Master
          > that was "made" 1,000, or more, years
          > ago? HK states that "her true age is beyond
          > belief." It would make more sense if Kata
          > Daki was made a member of the Vairagi
          > Order 100 years ago when her "Negative"
          > female vibrations were more harmonious
          > with the expanding world consciousness!
          >
          > BTW- Apparently Kata Daki still maintains
          > a physical body like Rubber Tires (Rebazar
          > Tarzs)!
          >
          > Eureka! A new perspective and a new
          > ekplanation. In playing devil's advocate,
          > for Klemp, I've come up with another
          > probability (excuse) for HK to use in
          > regard to the Kata Daki phenomena (lie).
          >
          > IF Kata Daki lived during the Golden
          > Age, or even the Silver Age, the feminine
          > "negative" atom principle would, thus,
          > have had much less effect and less
          > influence.
          >
          > Or, there could have been more contrast
          > between the two poles since the "positive"
          > influence would have been stronger and
          > greater, thus, the neg. atom feminine principle
          > would have to of been weaker than it is
          > today.
          >
          > However, as the world came closer to the
          > coarser vibrations of the more Negative
          > Kali Yuga this would explain why there
          > weren't and can't be anymore female EK
          > Masters since this Eckankar religious dogma
          > of the negative feminine principle would
          > become stronger!
          >
          > This is really bad news for Joan! It proves
          > that if Harry makes his 9th initiate wife, Joan,
          > a 12th Initiate and EK Master this October
          > (or any female anytime) that this would be
          > in direct conflict with Eckankar dogma!
          >
          > Of course, two negatives make a positive!
          > Thus, the negativity of the Kali Yuga and
          > the feminine negative atom principle could
          > make this a better time for a female LEM!
          > Maybe this factor/effect is what actually
          > caused Harry's EMR health problems, but
          > he's too much of a male chauvinist to let
          > go of the ROD! This attachment to power
          > could be seen as proof that Klemp is a
          > "past" Master... like Darwin.
          >
          > BTW- While looking at Klemp's 1998
          > EK Lexicon I saw some definitions that
          > caught my attention.
          >
          > "Path of the Trinity. Three questions to
          > ask oneself when in doubt about an action:
          > Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?"
          >
          > It's funny that Klemp uses Buddha's words
          > just as Twitchell did and doesn't give credit
          > to the original source. It's probably because
          > HK didn't realize Paul stole this quote from
          > Buddha! LOL! Where's the LEM's outer
          > awareness, or the Mahanta's "Inner Awareness?"
          >
          >
          >
          > "prophecy. The art of foreseeing events
          > before they happen; prophecy and deja
          > vu (for seeing what has already happened)
          > are the modus operandi of the ECK-Vidya,
          > the ancient science of prophecy used by
          > the Adepts of Eckankar."
          >
          > I will have to give Klemp credit for his
          > M.O. of using "deja vu" (20/20 hind-sight)
          > and his delusional and distorted imagination
          > and misuse of truth for a self-promoting
          > rewrite of history!
          >
          >
          >
          > Here's an EK Lexicon definition that follows
          > the pure positive MALE (father) principle:
          >
          > "principle of HU. The original word current,
          > HU, is the FATHER of all motions, forces,
          > lights, sounds, and elements that subsequently
          > came into existence."
          >
          > Notice that Klemp uses the past tense of
          > "CAME into existence." Thus, HU was the
          > "original word current," but is It's use relevant
          > for current times? And, since this is part
          > of the pure positive male principle, of the
          > "Father," should those ECKists with the
          > negative atom mother/female principle
          > be using/chanting this original HU word?
          >
          > Doesn't/couldn't this create a conflict
          > between the positive and negative that
          > would have worldwide karmic repercussions!
          > Should a mass of people (male and female
          > pos. & neg. atoms with various levels of
          > consciousness (initiation levels) be chanting
          > the "original word current" of the "Father"
          > the "HU" at the EK Worldwide Seminar Sunday
          > Morning HU Chant? Should these Eckists
          > and non-Eckists be using (playing with)
          > this "charged word?" Has Klemp gone too
          > far and has been too reckless?
          >
          > Klemp has a lot to answer for, however,
          > the Teflon LEM/Mahanta always sidesteps
          > the real issues. HK either simplifies these
          > to an Astral feel good level, or he omits
          > details and a broader perspective. Thus,
          > he always leaves them hungry... for real
          > spiritual food! Therefore, Eckists end up
          > rationalizing, second guessing, and feeding
          > themselves with imaginary explanations
          > after reading his stories or hearing him
          > speak.
          >
          > Many Eckists conclude that the testimonies/
          > stories of the imagined happenings of other
          > Chelas with EK Masters are real. This is the
          > "as if" proof that gives them their belief that
          > their religion is not only true but is the best,
          > most advanced, fastest, the only, and most
          > direct "path" to God. Strange, that these same
          > Eckists haven't experienced the "deja vu"of
          > those same testimonies and promises before!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > Moby wrote:
          >
          > Let's face it: most women would have
          > to run backwards, backwards at high
          > speed, to get their "vibrations" in sync
          > with an eck cleric.
          >
          > moby...
          >
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Moby and All,
          > > Yes, this idea of people coming into
          > > contact with ESA's (H.I.s) is seen as
          > > a "spiritual" blessing/Fate Karma for
          > > the lower initiate where their consciousness/
          > > vibrations will be speeded up in order
          > > to match, or come into sync with that
          > > of the Holier High Initiate via the Mahanta's
          > > intervention. To be a H.I. under Klemp
          > > is to come under his influence of vanity
          > > and delusion. As Above, So Below!
          > >
          > > Thus, H.I.s play the "as if" game and
          > > pretend. In truth they are trapped inside
          > > a box of religious dogma that has negative/
          > > lower plane requirements for more and more
          > > service.
          > >
          > > And, after all, Klemp has given NO MORE
          > > spiritual insights than Twitchell gave 39 years
          > > ago! Klemp has simply spun some updated
          > > regurgitations of PT's "borrowed" info while
          > > making some "outer" changes. This, unfortunately,
          > > has distracted the EK H.I. membership from
          > > their original goals of when they first joined
          > > "the private club" some 30-45 years ago!
          > >
          > > What ever happened to "Spiritual Liberation
          > > AND Self-Mastery in THIS Lifetime?"
          > >
          > > The above two goals can't ever be achieved
          > > when Klemp doesn't hand out enough Higher
          > > Initiations! Klemp is selfish, mean spirited,
          > > and fearful of being challenged for leadership.
          > > Look at what he did to Darwin and Graham!
          > > When he smiles he's thinking how he's fooled
          > > so many for so long! As initiation rank gets
          > > higher I.Q. becomes lower! Closed mindedness
          > > has negative results.
          > >
          > > In truth, after 27 years, there should
          > > be at least 3 Twelfth Initiates (named),
          > > 18 Ninth Initiates (named), 180 Eighth
          > > Initiates, and 1800 Seventh Initiates!
          > > Really! Eckists should think about this.
          > > Klemp isn't who or what he has claimed
          > > to be and hasn't delivered on these two
          > > main promises that Eckankar makes to
          > > everyone first joining... and that's a fact!
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > whitemoby wrote:
          > >
          > > I can't recall when the Eck illusion
          > > started to crack open for me. But,
          > > the following incident, at least,
          > > caused the seams to open:
          > >
          > > A woman, completely new to eckankar,
          > > started coming to the local center,
          > > hanging around a lot. I won't get into
          > > details, but she started dating our top
          > > ESA. Wedding bells were ringing.
          > >
          > > One day, in a satsang or something,
          > > an HI stated that this new woman, the
          > > ESA-dating woman, was on a spiritual
          > > fast track. Now, I am always happy to
          > > see two people find love, but I could
          > > not understand why it was that she was
          > > on a fast track. The HI said she HAD to
          > > be on a fast track otherwise she and the
          > > ESA would not be together. I thought,
          > > well, I could have dated that ESA myself.
          > > Would I then be on the Mahanta's
          > > thoroughbred list?
          > >
          > > Man oh man. The chips started to
          > > fall for me.
          > >
          > > I also saw how financially successful
          > > people were initiated faster and further.
          > >
          > > Moby...
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Moby and All, So true! Yes, Paul did use the battery analogy of pos. and neg. poles. There s always another excuse to place men above women. In EK,
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 24, 2009
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            Hello Moby and All,
            So true! Yes, Paul did use the "battery"
            analogy of pos. and neg. poles. There's
            always another excuse to place men
            above women. In EK, SOUL should
            equal SOUL (on ALL Planes), but it
            doesn't work that way! There's always
            another Catch-22 that these 'Just Men'
            (PT and HK) use to manipulate the neg.
            wo-men/fe-males/hu-mans. And,
            isn't it strange that the "negative" gender
            seems to Know and Experience more
            about LOVE than their warring/violent/
            angry/lustful/greedy/power hungry
            "positive" atom counterparts!

            I do, however, think that Klemp will try
            to pacify the female ECKists (8ths & RESAs
            too) by giving his wife, Joan, a 12th Initiation,
            thus, making her an EK Master. His excuse
            could be that Joan was placed on the
            "fast track" by sharing space and intimacy
            with the LEM/Mahanta. Thus, her vibrations
            are being more balanced out and coming
            into closer sync with his... least she gets
            "burned." Still, it seems strange that there
            would be such a gap between a Modern Day
            FEMALE EK Master and the ONLY other one,
            Kata Daki, of 1,000 or more years ago!

            BTW- If Klemp was as "high" in consciousness
            as Rebazar why is HK aging while R.T.
            hasn't aged AT ALL in over 500 years!
            EKists should be looking to and following
            the ageless Rebazar instead of the sickly
            Harry! Also, I'll bet Reb doesn't charge a
            Membership Fee for Initiation Maintenance!
            I never heard Paul say that he had to pay
            Rebazar an Annual Membership Donation
            or risk losing his initiations!

            ******
            Here's a quote from a June, 1971
            interview In "Difficulties Of Becoming
            The Living ECK Master" with Twitchell
            (pgs. 24-25).

            This was after PT had found out about
            Gail and Darwin's affair. [My Caps Added]

            "It is My Opinion that pets are good
            for children, especially in their earlier
            years when They Need Something to
            Love Them and Give Them Complete
            Devotion AND this is True with Some
            Adults. They Need a dog around them
            because They Need That Admiration
            and the Fullness of Love that They Don't
            and Cannot Get from an Inner Exchange
            with People, ESPECIALLY A MATE,
            because a Love With Mates Will NEVER
            Remain On This Sort Of A Level."

            Prometheus


            Moby wrote:

            Interesting post, prometheus, as always.
            Do you know what I think of when I think
            of Paul Twitchell and women? In one of
            his books he said that women did not
            have their own spiritual batteries.
            I can't recall the exact quote, but I
            will never for get it.

            Man oh man. My batteries may only
            be AAA, but trust me, I've got em.

            Moby...




            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello Moby,
            > Yes, Klemp has been promoting the
            > "fast" track, and the "spiritual" track
            > for some time now. It's mostly a seminar
            > "workshop" thing.
            >
            > However, EK women tend to do the
            > "heavy lifting" in Eckankar. They are
            > pacified with titles and contradictions
            > and are given a lot of "busy work" to
            > distract them from thinking too much
            > and asking questions. Silence and Surrender
            > tend to keep them in their "place" even
            > though when becoming H.I.s they are
            > called "BROTHERS of the Leaf" - PT's
            > (and HK's) play on words!
            >
            > The definition for the "Vairagi Adepts"
            > (pg. 222, EK Lexicon) states that this
            > is an "esoteric group" of 'JUST MEN.'
            > However, PT created one female EK
            > Master "Kata Daki" (K.D.) in memory
            > of his sister (Kay-Dee), and to appease
            > the female H.I.s doing most of the work,
            > as well as, to Gail.
            >
            > Then again, women can't become a
            > 12th LEM (let alone the Mahanta) while
            > living in a physical body due to their
            > "Negative" (atom) vibrations! Did the
            > imaginary "Kata Daki" get her 12th on
            > the outer or inner? It must have been
            > the "Inner" since the world's vibratory
            > rate (consciousness) was much more
            > coarse way back then and women were
            > even more "negative," or were they?
            >
            > Why is there only ONE Female EK Master
            > that was "made" 1,000, or more, years
            > ago? HK states that "her true age is beyond
            > belief." It would make more sense if Kata
            > Daki was made a member of the Vairagi
            > Order 100 years ago when her "Negative"
            > female vibrations were more harmonious
            > with the expanding world consciousness!
            >
            > BTW- Apparently Kata Daki still maintains
            > a physical body like Rubber Tires (Rebazar
            > Tarzs)!
            >
            > Eureka! A new perspective and a new
            > ekplanation. In playing devil's advocate,
            > for Klemp, I've come up with another
            > probability (excuse) for HK to use in
            > regard to the Kata Daki phenomena (lie).
            >
            > IF Kata Daki lived during the Golden
            > Age, or even the Silver Age, the feminine
            > "negative" atom principle would, thus,
            > have had much less effect and less
            > influence.
            >
            > Or, there could have been more contrast
            > between the two poles since the "positive"
            > influence would have been stronger and
            > greater, thus, the neg. atom feminine principle
            > would have to of been weaker than it is
            > today.
            >
            > However, as the world came closer to the
            > coarser vibrations of the more Negative
            > Kali Yuga this would explain why there
            > weren't and can't be anymore female EK
            > Masters since this Eckankar religious dogma
            > of the negative feminine principle would
            > become stronger!
            >
            > This is really bad news for Joan! It proves
            > that if Harry makes his 9th initiate wife, Joan,
            > a 12th Initiate and EK Master this October
            > (or any female anytime) that this would be
            > in direct conflict with Eckankar dogma!
            >
            > Of course, two negatives make a positive!
            > Thus, the negativity of the Kali Yuga and
            > the feminine negative atom principle could
            > make this a better time for a female LEM!
            > Maybe this factor/effect is what actually
            > caused Harry's EMR health problems, but
            > he's too much of a male chauvinist to let
            > go of the ROD! This attachment to power
            > could be seen as proof that Klemp is a
            > "past" Master... like Darwin.
            >
            > BTW- While looking at Klemp's 1998
            > EK Lexicon I saw some definitions that
            > caught my attention.
            >
            > "Path of the Trinity. Three questions to
            > ask oneself when in doubt about an action:
            > Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?"
            >
            > It's funny that Klemp uses Buddha's words
            > just as Twitchell did and doesn't give credit
            > to the original source. It's probably because
            > HK didn't realize Paul stole this quote from
            > Buddha! LOL! Where's the LEM's outer
            > awareness, or the Mahanta's "Inner Awareness?"
            >
            >
            >
            > "prophecy. The art of foreseeing events
            > before they happen; prophecy and deja
            > vu (for seeing what has already happened)
            > are the modus operandi of the ECK-Vidya,
            > the ancient science of prophecy used by
            > the Adepts of Eckankar."
            >
            > I will have to give Klemp credit for his
            > M.O. of using "deja vu" (20/20 hind-sight)
            > and his delusional and distorted imagination
            > and misuse of truth for a self-promoting
            > rewrite of history!
            >
            >
            >
            > Here's an EK Lexicon definition that follows
            > the pure positive MALE (father) principle:
            >
            > "principle of HU. The original word current,
            > HU, is the FATHER of all motions, forces,
            > lights, sounds, and elements that subsequently
            > came into existence."
            >
            > Notice that Klemp uses the past tense of
            > "CAME into existence." Thus, HU was the
            > "original word current," but is It's use relevant
            > for current times? And, since this is part
            > of the pure positive male principle, of the
            > "Father," should those ECKists with the
            > negative atom mother/female principle
            > be using/chanting this original HU word?
            >
            > Doesn't/couldn't this create a conflict
            > between the positive and negative that
            > would have worldwide karmic repercussions!
            > Should a mass of people (male and female
            > pos. & neg. atoms with various levels of
            > consciousness (initiation levels) be chanting
            > the "original word current" of the "Father"
            > the "HU" at the EK Worldwide Seminar Sunday
            > Morning HU Chant? Should these Eckists
            > and non-Eckists be using (playing with)
            > this "charged word?" Has Klemp gone too
            > far and has been too reckless?
            >
            > Klemp has a lot to answer for, however,
            > the Teflon LEM/Mahanta always sidesteps
            > the real issues. HK either simplifies these
            > to an Astral feel good level, or he omits
            > details and a broader perspective. Thus,
            > he always leaves them hungry... for real
            > spiritual food! Therefore, Eckists end up
            > rationalizing, second guessing, and feeding
            > themselves with imaginary explanations
            > after reading his stories or hearing him
            > speak.
            >
            > Many Eckists conclude that the testimonies/
            > stories of the imagined happenings of other
            > Chelas with EK Masters are real. This is the
            > "as if" proof that gives them their belief that
            > their religion is not only true but is the best,
            > most advanced, fastest, the only, and most
            > direct "path" to God. Strange, that these same
            > Eckists haven't experienced the "deja vu"of
            > those same testimonies and promises before!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > Moby wrote:
            >
            > Let's face it: most women would have
            > to run backwards, backwards at high
            > speed, to get their "vibrations" in sync
            > with an eck cleric.
            >
            > moby...
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Moby and All,
            > > Yes, this idea of people coming into
            > > contact with ESA's (H.I.s) is seen as
            > > a "spiritual" blessing/Fate Karma for
            > > the lower initiate where their consciousness/
            > > vibrations will be speeded up in order
            > > to match, or come into sync with that
            > > of the Holier High Initiate via the Mahanta's
            > > intervention. To be a H.I. under Klemp
            > > is to come under his influence of vanity
            > > and delusion. As Above, So Below!
            > >
            > > Thus, H.I.s play the "as if" game and
            > > pretend. In truth they are trapped inside
            > > a box of religious dogma that has negative/
            > > lower plane requirements for more and more
            > > service.
            > >
            > > And, after all, Klemp has given NO MORE
            > > spiritual insights than Twitchell gave 39 years
            > > ago! Klemp has simply spun some updated
            > > regurgitations of PT's "borrowed" info while
            > > making some "outer" changes. This, unfortunately,
            > > has distracted the EK H.I. membership from
            > > their original goals of when they first joined
            > > "the private club" some 30-45 years ago!
            > >
            > > What ever happened to "Spiritual Liberation
            > > AND Self-Mastery in THIS Lifetime?"
            > >
            > > The above two goals can't ever be achieved
            > > when Klemp doesn't hand out enough Higher
            > > Initiations! Klemp is selfish, mean spirited,
            > > and fearful of being challenged for leadership.
            > > Look at what he did to Darwin and Graham!
            > > When he smiles he's thinking how he's fooled
            > > so many for so long! As initiation rank gets
            > > higher I.Q. becomes lower! Closed mindedness
            > > has negative results.
            > >
            > > In truth, after 27 years, there should
            > > be at least 3 Twelfth Initiates (named),
            > > 18 Ninth Initiates (named), 180 Eighth
            > > Initiates, and 1800 Seventh Initiates!
            > > Really! Eckists should think about this.
            > > Klemp isn't who or what he has claimed
            > > to be and hasn't delivered on these two
            > > main promises that Eckankar makes to
            > > everyone first joining... and that's a fact!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > whitemoby wrote:
            > >
            > > I can't recall when the Eck illusion
            > > started to crack open for me. But,
            > > the following incident, at least,
            > > caused the seams to open:
            > >
            > > A woman, completely new to eckankar,
            > > started coming to the local center,
            > > hanging around a lot. I won't get into
            > > details, but she started dating our top
            > > ESA. Wedding bells were ringing.
            > >
            > > One day, in a satsang or something,
            > > an HI stated that this new woman, the
            > > ESA-dating woman, was on a spiritual
            > > fast track. Now, I am always happy to
            > > see two people find love, but I could
            > > not understand why it was that she was
            > > on a fast track. The HI said she HAD to
            > > be on a fast track otherwise she and the
            > > ESA would not be together. I thought,
            > > well, I could have dated that ESA myself.
            > > Would I then be on the Mahanta's
            > > thoroughbred list?
            > >
            > > Man oh man. The chips started to
            > > fall for me.
            > >
            > > I also saw how financially successful
            > > people were initiated faster and further.
            > >
            > > Moby...
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