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  • whitemoby22
    I can t recall when the Eck illusion started to crack open for me. But, the following incident, at least, caused the seams to open: A woman, completely new to
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 14 10:33 AM
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      I can't recall when the Eck illusion started to crack open for me. But, the following incident, at least, caused the seams to open:

      A woman, completely new to eckankar, started coming to the local center, hanging around a lot. I won't get into details, but she started dating our top ESA. Wedding bells were ringing.

      One day, in a satsang or something, an HI stated that this new woman, the ESA-dating woman, was on a spiritual fast track. Now, I am always happy to see two people find love, but I could not understand why it was that she was on a fast track. The HI said she HAD to be on a fast track otherwise she and the ESA would not be together. I thought, well, I could have dated that ESA myself. Would I then be on the Mahanta's thoroughbred list?

      Man oh man. The chips started to fall for me.

      I also saw how financially successful people were initiated faster and further.

      Moby...
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Moby and All, Yes, this idea of people coming into contact with ESA s (H.I.s) is seen as a spiritual blessing/Fate Karma for the lower initiate where
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 15 11:35 AM
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        Hello Moby and All,
        Yes, this idea of people coming into
        contact with ESA's (H.I.s) is seen as
        a "spiritual" blessing/Fate Karma for
        the lower initiate where their consciousness/
        vibrations will be speeded up in order
        to match, or come into sync with that
        of the Holier High Initiate via the Mahanta's
        intervention. To be a H.I. under Klemp
        is to come under his influence of vanity
        and delusion. As Above, So Below!

        Thus, H.I.s play the "as if" game and
        pretend. In truth they are trapped inside
        a box of religious dogma that has negative/
        lower plane requirements for more and more
        service.

        And, after all, Klemp has given NO MORE
        spiritual insights than Twitchell gave 39 years
        ago! Klemp has simply spun some updated
        regurgitations of PT's "borrowed" info while
        making some "outer" changes. This, unfortunately,
        has distracted the EK H.I. membership from
        their original goals of when they first joined
        "the private club" some 30-45 years ago!

        What ever happened to "Spiritual Liberation
        AND Self-Mastery in THIS Lifetime?"

        The above two goals can't ever be achieved
        when Klemp doesn't hand out enough Higher
        Initiations! Klemp is selfish, mean spirited,
        and fearful of being challenged for leadership.
        Look at what he did to Darwin and Graham!
        When he smiles he's thinking how he's fooled
        so many for so long! As initiation rank gets
        higher I.Q. becomes lower! Closed mindedness
        has negative results.

        In truth, after 27 years, there should
        be at least 3 Twelfth Initiates (named),
        18 Ninth Initiates (named), 180 Eighth
        Initiates, and 1800 Seventh Initiates!
        Really! Eckists should think about this.
        Klemp isn't who or what he has claimed
        to be and hasn't delivered on these two
        main promises that Eckankar makes to
        everyone first joining... and that's a fact!

        Prometheus



        whitemoby wrote:

        I can't recall when the Eck illusion
        started to crack open for me. But,
        the following incident, at least,
        caused the seams to open:

        A woman, completely new to eckankar,
        started coming to the local center,
        hanging around a lot. I won't get into
        details, but she started dating our top
        ESA. Wedding bells were ringing.

        One day, in a satsang or something,
        an HI stated that this new woman, the
        ESA-dating woman, was on a spiritual
        fast track. Now, I am always happy to
        see two people find love, but I could
        not understand why it was that she was
        on a fast track. The HI said she HAD to
        be on a fast track otherwise she and the
        ESA would not be together. I thought,
        well, I could have dated that ESA myself.
        Would I then be on the Mahanta's
        thoroughbred list?

        Man oh man. The chips started to
        fall for me.

        I also saw how financially successful
        people were initiated faster and further.

        Moby...
      • Moby
        Let s face it: most women would have to run backwards, backwards at high speed, to get their vibrations in sync with an eck cleric. moby...
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 17 9:14 AM
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          Let's face it: most women would have to run backwards, backwards at high speed, to get their "vibrations" in sync with an eck cleric.

          moby...


          In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Moby and All,
          > Yes, this idea of people coming into
          > contact with ESA's (H.I.s) is seen as
          > a "spiritual" blessing/Fate Karma for
          > the lower initiate where their consciousness/
          > vibrations will be speeded up in order
          > to match, or come into sync with that
          > of the Holier High Initiate via the Mahanta's
          > intervention. To be a H.I. under Klemp
          > is to come under his influence of vanity
          > and delusion. As Above, So Below!
          >
          > Thus, H.I.s play the "as if" game and
          > pretend. In truth they are trapped inside
          > a box of religious dogma that has negative/
          > lower plane requirements for more and more
          > service.
          >
          > And, after all, Klemp has given NO MORE
          > spiritual insights than Twitchell gave 39 years
          > ago! Klemp has simply spun some updated
          > regurgitations of PT's "borrowed" info while
          > making some "outer" changes. This, unfortunately,
          > has distracted the EK H.I. membership from
          > their original goals of when they first joined
          > "the private club" some 30-45 years ago!
          >
          > What ever happened to "Spiritual Liberation
          > AND Self-Mastery in THIS Lifetime?"
          >
          > The above two goals can't ever be achieved
          > when Klemp doesn't hand out enough Higher
          > Initiations! Klemp is selfish, mean spirited,
          > and fearful of being challenged for leadership.
          > Look at what he did to Darwin and Graham!
          > When he smiles he's thinking how he's fooled
          > so many for so long! As initiation rank gets
          > higher I.Q. becomes lower! Closed mindedness
          > has negative results.
          >
          > In truth, after 27 years, there should
          > be at least 3 Twelfth Initiates (named),
          > 18 Ninth Initiates (named), 180 Eighth
          > Initiates, and 1800 Seventh Initiates!
          > Really! Eckists should think about this.
          > Klemp isn't who or what he has claimed
          > to be and hasn't delivered on these two
          > main promises that Eckankar makes to
          > everyone first joining... and that's a fact!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          > whitemoby wrote:
          >
          > I can't recall when the Eck illusion
          > started to crack open for me. But,
          > the following incident, at least,
          > caused the seams to open:
          >
          > A woman, completely new to eckankar,
          > started coming to the local center,
          > hanging around a lot. I won't get into
          > details, but she started dating our top
          > ESA. Wedding bells were ringing.
          >
          > One day, in a satsang or something,
          > an HI stated that this new woman, the
          > ESA-dating woman, was on a spiritual
          > fast track. Now, I am always happy to
          > see two people find love, but I could
          > not understand why it was that she was
          > on a fast track. The HI said she HAD to
          > be on a fast track otherwise she and the
          > ESA would not be together. I thought,
          > well, I could have dated that ESA myself.
          > Would I then be on the Mahanta's
          > thoroughbred list?
          >
          > Man oh man. The chips started to
          > fall for me.
          >
          > I also saw how financially successful
          > people were initiated faster and further.
          >
          > Moby...
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, After looking at my estimates of how many 7ths, 8ths, 9ths, and 12ths that Klemp should have given out, after 27 years, I realize now that my
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 17 11:07 AM
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            Hello All,
            After looking at my estimates of
            how many 7ths, 8ths, 9ths, and
            12ths that Klemp should have given
            out, after 27 years, I realize now
            that my estimated numbers of what
            they should be (worldwide), for the
            7th initiation, is way too low! HK
            hasn't promoted that many to the
            7th initiation!

            There are now probably around 800
            current 7th Initiates, (about 1,000
            7ths were given out by DG and 100
            by PT), however, there should be more
            than four times as many as this by
            now! Of course, attrition has to be
            accounted for due to death or leaving
            the org. and/or failure to maintain
            the "requested" outer membership
            donation fee. Thus, Klemp is to
            blame here (for the low numbers)
            as well!

            All 7th Initiates Should Not have
            to pay, or renew, their outer and
            Inner Initiation via outer membership
            fees! 7ths wanting to leave the
            "Church" should have to resign,
            or be excommunicated! H.I.s Should
            Not be demoted or kicked to the
            curb for Not Paying a Maintenance
            (membership) Fee!

            Eckankar, on it's own, may have
            fulfilled PT's dream of becoming
            a "Worldwide Religion," however,
            PT's dream/scam has become "fulfilled"
            via the Internet (naturally) and despite
            Klemp's negative and inadequate
            leadership!

            Perhaps Klemp, and his manipulation
            of the "EK," or his "ECK Masters," will
            take credit for the "Internet" as well!
            Klemp's delusional version and rewrite
            of history has Fubbi and Rebazar helping
            Columbus to discover the Americas because
            EK Master Fubbi noticed that Europeans
            needed more "protein." Of course Klemp,
            conveniently, omits the search for gold
            and silver or the murder, rape, slavery,
            and disease and all the other exploitations
            that Columbus Rebazar, and Fubbi brought
            to the indigenous people of the New World!

            And, in Truth, Klemp has caused almost
            as many longtime chelas and H.I.'s to leave
            the EK Church (in his 27 years) than those
            joining, and staying, for three years.

            Prometheus


            prometheus wrote:

            Hello Moby and All,
            Yes, this idea of people coming into
            contact with ESA's (H.I.s) is seen as
            a "spiritual" blessing/Fate Karma for
            the lower initiate where their consciousness/
            vibrations will be speeded up in order
            to match, or come into sync with that
            of the Holier High Initiate via the Mahanta's
            intervention. To be a H.I. under Klemp
            is to come under his influence of vanity
            and delusion. As Above, So Below!

            Thus, H.I.s play the "as if" game and
            pretend. In truth they are trapped inside
            a box of religious dogma that has negative/
            lower plane requirements for more and more
            service.

            And, after all, Klemp has given NO MORE
            spiritual insights than Twitchell gave 39 years
            ago! Klemp has simply spun some updated
            regurgitations of PT's "borrowed" info while
            making some "outer" changes. This, unfortunately,
            has distracted the EK H.I. membership from
            their original goals of when they first joined
            "the private club" some 30-45 years ago!

            What ever happened to "Spiritual Liberation
            AND Self-Mastery in THIS Lifetime?"

            The above two goals can't ever be achieved
            when Klemp doesn't hand out enough Higher
            Initiations! Klemp is selfish, mean spirited,
            and fearful of being challenged for leadership.
            Look at what he did to Darwin and Graham!
            When he smiles he's thinking how he's fooled
            so many for so long! As initiation rank gets
            higher I.Q. becomes lower! Closed mindedness
            has negative results.

            In truth, after 27 years, there should
            be at least 3 Twelfth Initiates (named),
            18 Ninth Initiates (named), 180 Eighth
            Initiates, and 1800 Seventh Initiates!
            Really! Eckists should think about this.
            Klemp isn't who or what he has claimed
            to be and hasn't delivered on these two
            main promises that Eckankar makes to
            everyone first joining... and that's a fact!

            Prometheus



            whitemoby wrote:

            I can't recall when the Eck illusion
            started to crack open for me. But,
            the following incident, at least,
            caused the seams to open:

            A woman, completely new to eckankar,
            started coming to the local center,
            hanging around a lot. I won't get into
            details, but she started dating our top
            ESA. Wedding bells were ringing.

            One day, in a satsang or something,
            an HI stated that this new woman, the
            ESA-dating woman, was on a spiritual
            fast track. Now, I am always happy to
            see two people find love, but I could
            not understand why it was that she was
            on a fast track. The HI said she HAD to
            be on a fast track otherwise she and the
            ESA would not be together. I thought,
            well, I could have dated that ESA myself.
            Would I then be on the Mahanta's
            thoroughbred list?

            Man oh man. The chips started to
            fall for me.

            I also saw how financially successful
            people were initiated faster and further.

            Moby...
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Moby, Yes, Klemp has been promoting the fast track, and the spiritual track for some time now. It s mostly a seminar workshop thing. However, EK
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 23 1:24 PM
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              Hello Moby,
              Yes, Klemp has been promoting the
              "fast" track, and the "spiritual" track
              for some time now. It's mostly a seminar
              "workshop" thing.

              However, EK women tend to do the
              "heavy lifting" in Eckankar. They are
              pacified with titles and contradictions
              and are given a lot of "busy work" to
              distract them from thinking too much
              and asking questions. Silence and Surrender
              tend to keep them in their "place" even
              though when becoming H.I.s they are
              called "BROTHERS of the Leaf" - PT's
              (and HK's) play on words!

              The definition for the "Vairagi Adepts"
              (pg. 222, EK Lexicon) states that this
              is an "esoteric group" of 'JUST MEN.'
              However, PT created one female EK
              Master "Kata Daki" (K.D.) in memory
              of his sister (Kay-Dee), and to appease
              the female H.I.s doing most of the work,
              as well as, to Gail.

              Then again, women can't become a
              12th LEM (let alone the Mahanta) while
              living in a physical body due to their
              "Negative" (atom) vibrations! Did the
              imaginary "Kata Daki" get her 12th on
              the outer or inner? It must have been
              the "Inner" since the world's vibratory
              rate (consciousness) was much more
              coarse way back then and women were
              even more "negative," or were they?

              Why is there only ONE Female EK Master
              that was "made" 1,000, or more, years
              ago? HK states that "her true age is beyond
              belief." It would make more sense if Kata
              Daki was made a member of the Vairagi
              Order 100 years ago when her "Negative"
              female vibrations were more harmonious
              with the expanding world consciousness!

              BTW- Apparently Kata Daki still maintains
              a physical body like Rubber Tires (Rebazar
              Tarzs)!

              Eureka! A new perspective and a new
              ekplanation. In playing devil's advocate,
              for Klemp, I've come up with another
              probability (excuse) for HK to use in
              regard to the Kata Daki phenomena (lie).

              IF Kata Daki lived during the Golden
              Age, or even the Silver Age, the feminine
              "negative" atom principle would, thus,
              have had much less effect and less
              influence.

              Or, there could have been more contrast
              between the two poles since the "positive"
              influence would have been stronger and
              greater, thus, the neg. atom feminine principle
              would have to of been weaker than it is
              today.

              However, as the world came closer to the
              coarser vibrations of the more Negative
              Kali Yuga this would explain why there
              weren't and can't be anymore female EK
              Masters since this Eckankar religious dogma
              of the negative feminine principle would
              become stronger!

              This is really bad news for Joan! It proves
              that if Harry makes his 9th initiate wife, Joan,
              a 12th Initiate and EK Master this October
              (or any female anytime) that this would be
              in direct conflict with Eckankar dogma!

              Of course, two negatives make a positive!
              Thus, the negativity of the Kali Yuga and
              the feminine negative atom principle could
              make this a better time for a female LEM!
              Maybe this factor/effect is what actually
              caused Harry's EMR health problems, but
              he's too much of a male chauvinist to let
              go of the ROD! This attachment to power
              could be seen as proof that Klemp is a
              "past" Master... like Darwin.

              BTW- While looking at Klemp's 1998
              EK Lexicon I saw some definitions that
              caught my attention.

              "Path of the Trinity. Three questions to
              ask oneself when in doubt about an action:
              Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?"

              It's funny that Klemp uses Buddha's words
              just as Twitchell did and doesn't give credit
              to the original source. It's probably because
              HK didn't realize Paul stole this quote from
              Buddha! LOL! Where's the LEM's outer
              awareness, or the Mahanta's "Inner Awareness?"



              "prophecy. The art of foreseeing events
              before they happen; prophecy and deja
              vu (for seeing what has already happened)
              are the modus operandi of the ECK-Vidya,
              the ancient science of prophecy used by
              the Adepts of Eckankar."

              I will have to give Klemp credit for his
              M.O. of using "deja vu" (20/20 hind-sight)
              and his delusional and distorted imagination
              and misuse of truth for a self-promoting
              rewrite of history!



              Here's an EK Lexicon definition that follows
              the pure positive MALE (father) principle:

              "principle of HU. The original word current,
              HU, is the FATHER of all motions, forces,
              lights, sounds, and elements that subsequently
              came into existence."

              Notice that Klemp uses the past tense of
              "CAME into existence." Thus, HU was the
              "original word current," but is It's use relevant
              for current times? And, since this is part
              of the pure positive male principle, of the
              "Father," should those ECKists with the
              negative atom mother/female principle
              be using/chanting this original HU word?

              Doesn't/couldn't this create a conflict
              between the positive and negative that
              would have worldwide karmic repercussions!
              Should a mass of people (male and female
              pos. & neg. atoms with various levels of
              consciousness (initiation levels) be chanting
              the "original word current" of the "Father"
              the "HU" at the EK Worldwide Seminar Sunday
              Morning HU Chant? Should these Eckists
              and non-Eckists be using (playing with)
              this "charged word?" Has Klemp gone too
              far and has been too reckless?

              Klemp has a lot to answer for, however,
              the Teflon LEM/Mahanta always sidesteps
              the real issues. HK either simplifies these
              to an Astral feel good level, or he omits
              details and a broader perspective. Thus,
              he always leaves them hungry... for real
              spiritual food! Therefore, Eckists end up
              rationalizing, second guessing, and feeding
              themselves with imaginary explanations
              after reading his stories or hearing him
              speak.

              Many Eckists conclude that the testimonies/
              stories of the imagined happenings of other
              Chelas with EK Masters are real. This is the
              "as if" proof that gives them their belief that
              their religion is not only true but is the best,
              most advanced, fastest, the only, and most
              direct "path" to God. Strange, that these same
              Eckists haven't experienced the "deja vu"of
              those same testimonies and promises before!

              Prometheus


              Moby wrote:

              Let's face it: most women would have
              to run backwards, backwards at high
              speed, to get their "vibrations" in sync
              with an eck cleric.

              moby...


              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello Moby and All,
              > Yes, this idea of people coming into
              > contact with ESA's (H.I.s) is seen as
              > a "spiritual" blessing/Fate Karma for
              > the lower initiate where their consciousness/
              > vibrations will be speeded up in order
              > to match, or come into sync with that
              > of the Holier High Initiate via the Mahanta's
              > intervention. To be a H.I. under Klemp
              > is to come under his influence of vanity
              > and delusion. As Above, So Below!
              >
              > Thus, H.I.s play the "as if" game and
              > pretend. In truth they are trapped inside
              > a box of religious dogma that has negative/
              > lower plane requirements for more and more
              > service.
              >
              > And, after all, Klemp has given NO MORE
              > spiritual insights than Twitchell gave 39 years
              > ago! Klemp has simply spun some updated
              > regurgitations of PT's "borrowed" info while
              > making some "outer" changes. This, unfortunately,
              > has distracted the EK H.I. membership from
              > their original goals of when they first joined
              > "the private club" some 30-45 years ago!
              >
              > What ever happened to "Spiritual Liberation
              > AND Self-Mastery in THIS Lifetime?"
              >
              > The above two goals can't ever be achieved
              > when Klemp doesn't hand out enough Higher
              > Initiations! Klemp is selfish, mean spirited,
              > and fearful of being challenged for leadership.
              > Look at what he did to Darwin and Graham!
              > When he smiles he's thinking how he's fooled
              > so many for so long! As initiation rank gets
              > higher I.Q. becomes lower! Closed mindedness
              > has negative results.
              >
              > In truth, after 27 years, there should
              > be at least 3 Twelfth Initiates (named),
              > 18 Ninth Initiates (named), 180 Eighth
              > Initiates, and 1800 Seventh Initiates!
              > Really! Eckists should think about this.
              > Klemp isn't who or what he has claimed
              > to be and hasn't delivered on these two
              > main promises that Eckankar makes to
              > everyone first joining... and that's a fact!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              > whitemoby wrote:
              >
              > I can't recall when the Eck illusion
              > started to crack open for me. But,
              > the following incident, at least,
              > caused the seams to open:
              >
              > A woman, completely new to eckankar,
              > started coming to the local center,
              > hanging around a lot. I won't get into
              > details, but she started dating our top
              > ESA. Wedding bells were ringing.
              >
              > One day, in a satsang or something,
              > an HI stated that this new woman, the
              > ESA-dating woman, was on a spiritual
              > fast track. Now, I am always happy to
              > see two people find love, but I could
              > not understand why it was that she was
              > on a fast track. The HI said she HAD to
              > be on a fast track otherwise she and the
              > ESA would not be together. I thought,
              > well, I could have dated that ESA myself.
              > Would I then be on the Mahanta's
              > thoroughbred list?
              >
              > Man oh man. The chips started to
              > fall for me.
              >
              > I also saw how financially successful
              > people were initiated faster and further.
              >
              > Moby...
            • Moby
              Interesting post, prometheus, as always. Do you know what I think of when I think of Paul Twitchell and women? In one of his books he said that women did not
              Message 6 of 7 , Sep 23 2:11 PM
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                Interesting post, prometheus, as always. Do you know what I think of when I think of Paul Twitchell and women? In one of his books he said that women did not have their own spiritual batteries. I can't recall the exact quote, but I will never for get it.

                Man oh man. My batteries may only be AAA, but trust me, I've got em.

                Moby...



                In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Moby,
                > Yes, Klemp has been promoting the
                > "fast" track, and the "spiritual" track
                > for some time now. It's mostly a seminar
                > "workshop" thing.
                >
                > However, EK women tend to do the
                > "heavy lifting" in Eckankar. They are
                > pacified with titles and contradictions
                > and are given a lot of "busy work" to
                > distract them from thinking too much
                > and asking questions. Silence and Surrender
                > tend to keep them in their "place" even
                > though when becoming H.I.s they are
                > called "BROTHERS of the Leaf" - PT's
                > (and HK's) play on words!
                >
                > The definition for the "Vairagi Adepts"
                > (pg. 222, EK Lexicon) states that this
                > is an "esoteric group" of 'JUST MEN.'
                > However, PT created one female EK
                > Master "Kata Daki" (K.D.) in memory
                > of his sister (Kay-Dee), and to appease
                > the female H.I.s doing most of the work,
                > as well as, to Gail.
                >
                > Then again, women can't become a
                > 12th LEM (let alone the Mahanta) while
                > living in a physical body due to their
                > "Negative" (atom) vibrations! Did the
                > imaginary "Kata Daki" get her 12th on
                > the outer or inner? It must have been
                > the "Inner" since the world's vibratory
                > rate (consciousness) was much more
                > coarse way back then and women were
                > even more "negative," or were they?
                >
                > Why is there only ONE Female EK Master
                > that was "made" 1,000, or more, years
                > ago? HK states that "her true age is beyond
                > belief." It would make more sense if Kata
                > Daki was made a member of the Vairagi
                > Order 100 years ago when her "Negative"
                > female vibrations were more harmonious
                > with the expanding world consciousness!
                >
                > BTW- Apparently Kata Daki still maintains
                > a physical body like Rubber Tires (Rebazar
                > Tarzs)!
                >
                > Eureka! A new perspective and a new
                > ekplanation. In playing devil's advocate,
                > for Klemp, I've come up with another
                > probability (excuse) for HK to use in
                > regard to the Kata Daki phenomena (lie).
                >
                > IF Kata Daki lived during the Golden
                > Age, or even the Silver Age, the feminine
                > "negative" atom principle would, thus,
                > have had much less effect and less
                > influence.
                >
                > Or, there could have been more contrast
                > between the two poles since the "positive"
                > influence would have been stronger and
                > greater, thus, the neg. atom feminine principle
                > would have to of been weaker than it is
                > today.
                >
                > However, as the world came closer to the
                > coarser vibrations of the more Negative
                > Kali Yuga this would explain why there
                > weren't and can't be anymore female EK
                > Masters since this Eckankar religious dogma
                > of the negative feminine principle would
                > become stronger!
                >
                > This is really bad news for Joan! It proves
                > that if Harry makes his 9th initiate wife, Joan,
                > a 12th Initiate and EK Master this October
                > (or any female anytime) that this would be
                > in direct conflict with Eckankar dogma!
                >
                > Of course, two negatives make a positive!
                > Thus, the negativity of the Kali Yuga and
                > the feminine negative atom principle could
                > make this a better time for a female LEM!
                > Maybe this factor/effect is what actually
                > caused Harry's EMR health problems, but
                > he's too much of a male chauvinist to let
                > go of the ROD! This attachment to power
                > could be seen as proof that Klemp is a
                > "past" Master... like Darwin.
                >
                > BTW- While looking at Klemp's 1998
                > EK Lexicon I saw some definitions that
                > caught my attention.
                >
                > "Path of the Trinity. Three questions to
                > ask oneself when in doubt about an action:
                > Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?"
                >
                > It's funny that Klemp uses Buddha's words
                > just as Twitchell did and doesn't give credit
                > to the original source. It's probably because
                > HK didn't realize Paul stole this quote from
                > Buddha! LOL! Where's the LEM's outer
                > awareness, or the Mahanta's "Inner Awareness?"
                >
                >
                >
                > "prophecy. The art of foreseeing events
                > before they happen; prophecy and deja
                > vu (for seeing what has already happened)
                > are the modus operandi of the ECK-Vidya,
                > the ancient science of prophecy used by
                > the Adepts of Eckankar."
                >
                > I will have to give Klemp credit for his
                > M.O. of using "deja vu" (20/20 hind-sight)
                > and his delusional and distorted imagination
                > and misuse of truth for a self-promoting
                > rewrite of history!
                >
                >
                >
                > Here's an EK Lexicon definition that follows
                > the pure positive MALE (father) principle:
                >
                > "principle of HU. The original word current,
                > HU, is the FATHER of all motions, forces,
                > lights, sounds, and elements that subsequently
                > came into existence."
                >
                > Notice that Klemp uses the past tense of
                > "CAME into existence." Thus, HU was the
                > "original word current," but is It's use relevant
                > for current times? And, since this is part
                > of the pure positive male principle, of the
                > "Father," should those ECKists with the
                > negative atom mother/female principle
                > be using/chanting this original HU word?
                >
                > Doesn't/couldn't this create a conflict
                > between the positive and negative that
                > would have worldwide karmic repercussions!
                > Should a mass of people (male and female
                > pos. & neg. atoms with various levels of
                > consciousness (initiation levels) be chanting
                > the "original word current" of the "Father"
                > the "HU" at the EK Worldwide Seminar Sunday
                > Morning HU Chant? Should these Eckists
                > and non-Eckists be using (playing with)
                > this "charged word?" Has Klemp gone too
                > far and has been too reckless?
                >
                > Klemp has a lot to answer for, however,
                > the Teflon LEM/Mahanta always sidesteps
                > the real issues. HK either simplifies these
                > to an Astral feel good level, or he omits
                > details and a broader perspective. Thus,
                > he always leaves them hungry... for real
                > spiritual food! Therefore, Eckists end up
                > rationalizing, second guessing, and feeding
                > themselves with imaginary explanations
                > after reading his stories or hearing him
                > speak.
                >
                > Many Eckists conclude that the testimonies/
                > stories of the imagined happenings of other
                > Chelas with EK Masters are real. This is the
                > "as if" proof that gives them their belief that
                > their religion is not only true but is the best,
                > most advanced, fastest, the only, and most
                > direct "path" to God. Strange, that these same
                > Eckists haven't experienced the "deja vu"of
                > those same testimonies and promises before!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > Moby wrote:
                >
                > Let's face it: most women would have
                > to run backwards, backwards at high
                > speed, to get their "vibrations" in sync
                > with an eck cleric.
                >
                > moby...
                >
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Moby and All,
                > > Yes, this idea of people coming into
                > > contact with ESA's (H.I.s) is seen as
                > > a "spiritual" blessing/Fate Karma for
                > > the lower initiate where their consciousness/
                > > vibrations will be speeded up in order
                > > to match, or come into sync with that
                > > of the Holier High Initiate via the Mahanta's
                > > intervention. To be a H.I. under Klemp
                > > is to come under his influence of vanity
                > > and delusion. As Above, So Below!
                > >
                > > Thus, H.I.s play the "as if" game and
                > > pretend. In truth they are trapped inside
                > > a box of religious dogma that has negative/
                > > lower plane requirements for more and more
                > > service.
                > >
                > > And, after all, Klemp has given NO MORE
                > > spiritual insights than Twitchell gave 39 years
                > > ago! Klemp has simply spun some updated
                > > regurgitations of PT's "borrowed" info while
                > > making some "outer" changes. This, unfortunately,
                > > has distracted the EK H.I. membership from
                > > their original goals of when they first joined
                > > "the private club" some 30-45 years ago!
                > >
                > > What ever happened to "Spiritual Liberation
                > > AND Self-Mastery in THIS Lifetime?"
                > >
                > > The above two goals can't ever be achieved
                > > when Klemp doesn't hand out enough Higher
                > > Initiations! Klemp is selfish, mean spirited,
                > > and fearful of being challenged for leadership.
                > > Look at what he did to Darwin and Graham!
                > > When he smiles he's thinking how he's fooled
                > > so many for so long! As initiation rank gets
                > > higher I.Q. becomes lower! Closed mindedness
                > > has negative results.
                > >
                > > In truth, after 27 years, there should
                > > be at least 3 Twelfth Initiates (named),
                > > 18 Ninth Initiates (named), 180 Eighth
                > > Initiates, and 1800 Seventh Initiates!
                > > Really! Eckists should think about this.
                > > Klemp isn't who or what he has claimed
                > > to be and hasn't delivered on these two
                > > main promises that Eckankar makes to
                > > everyone first joining... and that's a fact!
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > whitemoby wrote:
                > >
                > > I can't recall when the Eck illusion
                > > started to crack open for me. But,
                > > the following incident, at least,
                > > caused the seams to open:
                > >
                > > A woman, completely new to eckankar,
                > > started coming to the local center,
                > > hanging around a lot. I won't get into
                > > details, but she started dating our top
                > > ESA. Wedding bells were ringing.
                > >
                > > One day, in a satsang or something,
                > > an HI stated that this new woman, the
                > > ESA-dating woman, was on a spiritual
                > > fast track. Now, I am always happy to
                > > see two people find love, but I could
                > > not understand why it was that she was
                > > on a fast track. The HI said she HAD to
                > > be on a fast track otherwise she and the
                > > ESA would not be together. I thought,
                > > well, I could have dated that ESA myself.
                > > Would I then be on the Mahanta's
                > > thoroughbred list?
                > >
                > > Man oh man. The chips started to
                > > fall for me.
                > >
                > > I also saw how financially successful
                > > people were initiated faster and further.
                > >
                > > Moby...
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Moby and All, So true! Yes, Paul did use the battery analogy of pos. and neg. poles. There s always another excuse to place men above women. In EK,
                Message 7 of 7 , Sep 24 11:55 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Moby and All,
                  So true! Yes, Paul did use the "battery"
                  analogy of pos. and neg. poles. There's
                  always another excuse to place men
                  above women. In EK, SOUL should
                  equal SOUL (on ALL Planes), but it
                  doesn't work that way! There's always
                  another Catch-22 that these 'Just Men'
                  (PT and HK) use to manipulate the neg.
                  wo-men/fe-males/hu-mans. And,
                  isn't it strange that the "negative" gender
                  seems to Know and Experience more
                  about LOVE than their warring/violent/
                  angry/lustful/greedy/power hungry
                  "positive" atom counterparts!

                  I do, however, think that Klemp will try
                  to pacify the female ECKists (8ths & RESAs
                  too) by giving his wife, Joan, a 12th Initiation,
                  thus, making her an EK Master. His excuse
                  could be that Joan was placed on the
                  "fast track" by sharing space and intimacy
                  with the LEM/Mahanta. Thus, her vibrations
                  are being more balanced out and coming
                  into closer sync with his... least she gets
                  "burned." Still, it seems strange that there
                  would be such a gap between a Modern Day
                  FEMALE EK Master and the ONLY other one,
                  Kata Daki, of 1,000 or more years ago!

                  BTW- If Klemp was as "high" in consciousness
                  as Rebazar why is HK aging while R.T.
                  hasn't aged AT ALL in over 500 years!
                  EKists should be looking to and following
                  the ageless Rebazar instead of the sickly
                  Harry! Also, I'll bet Reb doesn't charge a
                  Membership Fee for Initiation Maintenance!
                  I never heard Paul say that he had to pay
                  Rebazar an Annual Membership Donation
                  or risk losing his initiations!

                  ******
                  Here's a quote from a June, 1971
                  interview In "Difficulties Of Becoming
                  The Living ECK Master" with Twitchell
                  (pgs. 24-25).

                  This was after PT had found out about
                  Gail and Darwin's affair. [My Caps Added]

                  "It is My Opinion that pets are good
                  for children, especially in their earlier
                  years when They Need Something to
                  Love Them and Give Them Complete
                  Devotion AND this is True with Some
                  Adults. They Need a dog around them
                  because They Need That Admiration
                  and the Fullness of Love that They Don't
                  and Cannot Get from an Inner Exchange
                  with People, ESPECIALLY A MATE,
                  because a Love With Mates Will NEVER
                  Remain On This Sort Of A Level."

                  Prometheus


                  Moby wrote:

                  Interesting post, prometheus, as always.
                  Do you know what I think of when I think
                  of Paul Twitchell and women? In one of
                  his books he said that women did not
                  have their own spiritual batteries.
                  I can't recall the exact quote, but I
                  will never for get it.

                  Man oh man. My batteries may only
                  be AAA, but trust me, I've got em.

                  Moby...




                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Moby,
                  > Yes, Klemp has been promoting the
                  > "fast" track, and the "spiritual" track
                  > for some time now. It's mostly a seminar
                  > "workshop" thing.
                  >
                  > However, EK women tend to do the
                  > "heavy lifting" in Eckankar. They are
                  > pacified with titles and contradictions
                  > and are given a lot of "busy work" to
                  > distract them from thinking too much
                  > and asking questions. Silence and Surrender
                  > tend to keep them in their "place" even
                  > though when becoming H.I.s they are
                  > called "BROTHERS of the Leaf" - PT's
                  > (and HK's) play on words!
                  >
                  > The definition for the "Vairagi Adepts"
                  > (pg. 222, EK Lexicon) states that this
                  > is an "esoteric group" of 'JUST MEN.'
                  > However, PT created one female EK
                  > Master "Kata Daki" (K.D.) in memory
                  > of his sister (Kay-Dee), and to appease
                  > the female H.I.s doing most of the work,
                  > as well as, to Gail.
                  >
                  > Then again, women can't become a
                  > 12th LEM (let alone the Mahanta) while
                  > living in a physical body due to their
                  > "Negative" (atom) vibrations! Did the
                  > imaginary "Kata Daki" get her 12th on
                  > the outer or inner? It must have been
                  > the "Inner" since the world's vibratory
                  > rate (consciousness) was much more
                  > coarse way back then and women were
                  > even more "negative," or were they?
                  >
                  > Why is there only ONE Female EK Master
                  > that was "made" 1,000, or more, years
                  > ago? HK states that "her true age is beyond
                  > belief." It would make more sense if Kata
                  > Daki was made a member of the Vairagi
                  > Order 100 years ago when her "Negative"
                  > female vibrations were more harmonious
                  > with the expanding world consciousness!
                  >
                  > BTW- Apparently Kata Daki still maintains
                  > a physical body like Rubber Tires (Rebazar
                  > Tarzs)!
                  >
                  > Eureka! A new perspective and a new
                  > ekplanation. In playing devil's advocate,
                  > for Klemp, I've come up with another
                  > probability (excuse) for HK to use in
                  > regard to the Kata Daki phenomena (lie).
                  >
                  > IF Kata Daki lived during the Golden
                  > Age, or even the Silver Age, the feminine
                  > "negative" atom principle would, thus,
                  > have had much less effect and less
                  > influence.
                  >
                  > Or, there could have been more contrast
                  > between the two poles since the "positive"
                  > influence would have been stronger and
                  > greater, thus, the neg. atom feminine principle
                  > would have to of been weaker than it is
                  > today.
                  >
                  > However, as the world came closer to the
                  > coarser vibrations of the more Negative
                  > Kali Yuga this would explain why there
                  > weren't and can't be anymore female EK
                  > Masters since this Eckankar religious dogma
                  > of the negative feminine principle would
                  > become stronger!
                  >
                  > This is really bad news for Joan! It proves
                  > that if Harry makes his 9th initiate wife, Joan,
                  > a 12th Initiate and EK Master this October
                  > (or any female anytime) that this would be
                  > in direct conflict with Eckankar dogma!
                  >
                  > Of course, two negatives make a positive!
                  > Thus, the negativity of the Kali Yuga and
                  > the feminine negative atom principle could
                  > make this a better time for a female LEM!
                  > Maybe this factor/effect is what actually
                  > caused Harry's EMR health problems, but
                  > he's too much of a male chauvinist to let
                  > go of the ROD! This attachment to power
                  > could be seen as proof that Klemp is a
                  > "past" Master... like Darwin.
                  >
                  > BTW- While looking at Klemp's 1998
                  > EK Lexicon I saw some definitions that
                  > caught my attention.
                  >
                  > "Path of the Trinity. Three questions to
                  > ask oneself when in doubt about an action:
                  > Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?"
                  >
                  > It's funny that Klemp uses Buddha's words
                  > just as Twitchell did and doesn't give credit
                  > to the original source. It's probably because
                  > HK didn't realize Paul stole this quote from
                  > Buddha! LOL! Where's the LEM's outer
                  > awareness, or the Mahanta's "Inner Awareness?"
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > "prophecy. The art of foreseeing events
                  > before they happen; prophecy and deja
                  > vu (for seeing what has already happened)
                  > are the modus operandi of the ECK-Vidya,
                  > the ancient science of prophecy used by
                  > the Adepts of Eckankar."
                  >
                  > I will have to give Klemp credit for his
                  > M.O. of using "deja vu" (20/20 hind-sight)
                  > and his delusional and distorted imagination
                  > and misuse of truth for a self-promoting
                  > rewrite of history!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Here's an EK Lexicon definition that follows
                  > the pure positive MALE (father) principle:
                  >
                  > "principle of HU. The original word current,
                  > HU, is the FATHER of all motions, forces,
                  > lights, sounds, and elements that subsequently
                  > came into existence."
                  >
                  > Notice that Klemp uses the past tense of
                  > "CAME into existence." Thus, HU was the
                  > "original word current," but is It's use relevant
                  > for current times? And, since this is part
                  > of the pure positive male principle, of the
                  > "Father," should those ECKists with the
                  > negative atom mother/female principle
                  > be using/chanting this original HU word?
                  >
                  > Doesn't/couldn't this create a conflict
                  > between the positive and negative that
                  > would have worldwide karmic repercussions!
                  > Should a mass of people (male and female
                  > pos. & neg. atoms with various levels of
                  > consciousness (initiation levels) be chanting
                  > the "original word current" of the "Father"
                  > the "HU" at the EK Worldwide Seminar Sunday
                  > Morning HU Chant? Should these Eckists
                  > and non-Eckists be using (playing with)
                  > this "charged word?" Has Klemp gone too
                  > far and has been too reckless?
                  >
                  > Klemp has a lot to answer for, however,
                  > the Teflon LEM/Mahanta always sidesteps
                  > the real issues. HK either simplifies these
                  > to an Astral feel good level, or he omits
                  > details and a broader perspective. Thus,
                  > he always leaves them hungry... for real
                  > spiritual food! Therefore, Eckists end up
                  > rationalizing, second guessing, and feeding
                  > themselves with imaginary explanations
                  > after reading his stories or hearing him
                  > speak.
                  >
                  > Many Eckists conclude that the testimonies/
                  > stories of the imagined happenings of other
                  > Chelas with EK Masters are real. This is the
                  > "as if" proof that gives them their belief that
                  > their religion is not only true but is the best,
                  > most advanced, fastest, the only, and most
                  > direct "path" to God. Strange, that these same
                  > Eckists haven't experienced the "deja vu"of
                  > those same testimonies and promises before!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > Moby wrote:
                  >
                  > Let's face it: most women would have
                  > to run backwards, backwards at high
                  > speed, to get their "vibrations" in sync
                  > with an eck cleric.
                  >
                  > moby...
                  >
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello Moby and All,
                  > > Yes, this idea of people coming into
                  > > contact with ESA's (H.I.s) is seen as
                  > > a "spiritual" blessing/Fate Karma for
                  > > the lower initiate where their consciousness/
                  > > vibrations will be speeded up in order
                  > > to match, or come into sync with that
                  > > of the Holier High Initiate via the Mahanta's
                  > > intervention. To be a H.I. under Klemp
                  > > is to come under his influence of vanity
                  > > and delusion. As Above, So Below!
                  > >
                  > > Thus, H.I.s play the "as if" game and
                  > > pretend. In truth they are trapped inside
                  > > a box of religious dogma that has negative/
                  > > lower plane requirements for more and more
                  > > service.
                  > >
                  > > And, after all, Klemp has given NO MORE
                  > > spiritual insights than Twitchell gave 39 years
                  > > ago! Klemp has simply spun some updated
                  > > regurgitations of PT's "borrowed" info while
                  > > making some "outer" changes. This, unfortunately,
                  > > has distracted the EK H.I. membership from
                  > > their original goals of when they first joined
                  > > "the private club" some 30-45 years ago!
                  > >
                  > > What ever happened to "Spiritual Liberation
                  > > AND Self-Mastery in THIS Lifetime?"
                  > >
                  > > The above two goals can't ever be achieved
                  > > when Klemp doesn't hand out enough Higher
                  > > Initiations! Klemp is selfish, mean spirited,
                  > > and fearful of being challenged for leadership.
                  > > Look at what he did to Darwin and Graham!
                  > > When he smiles he's thinking how he's fooled
                  > > so many for so long! As initiation rank gets
                  > > higher I.Q. becomes lower! Closed mindedness
                  > > has negative results.
                  > >
                  > > In truth, after 27 years, there should
                  > > be at least 3 Twelfth Initiates (named),
                  > > 18 Ninth Initiates (named), 180 Eighth
                  > > Initiates, and 1800 Seventh Initiates!
                  > > Really! Eckists should think about this.
                  > > Klemp isn't who or what he has claimed
                  > > to be and hasn't delivered on these two
                  > > main promises that Eckankar makes to
                  > > everyone first joining... and that's a fact!
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > whitemoby wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I can't recall when the Eck illusion
                  > > started to crack open for me. But,
                  > > the following incident, at least,
                  > > caused the seams to open:
                  > >
                  > > A woman, completely new to eckankar,
                  > > started coming to the local center,
                  > > hanging around a lot. I won't get into
                  > > details, but she started dating our top
                  > > ESA. Wedding bells were ringing.
                  > >
                  > > One day, in a satsang or something,
                  > > an HI stated that this new woman, the
                  > > ESA-dating woman, was on a spiritual
                  > > fast track. Now, I am always happy to
                  > > see two people find love, but I could
                  > > not understand why it was that she was
                  > > on a fast track. The HI said she HAD to
                  > > be on a fast track otherwise she and the
                  > > ESA would not be together. I thought,
                  > > well, I could have dated that ESA myself.
                  > > Would I then be on the Mahanta's
                  > > thoroughbred list?
                  > >
                  > > Man oh man. The chips started to
                  > > fall for me.
                  > >
                  > > I also saw how financially successful
                  > > people were initiated faster and further.
                  > >
                  > > Moby...
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