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The EK Initiation Quagmire

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  • prometheus_973
    In Eckankar the First initiation is said to, usually, come in The Dream State by the end of the first year and the Second initiation is a year later or after
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 11, 2009
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      In Eckankar the First initiation is said
      to, usually, come in The Dream State
      by the end of the first year and the
      Second initiation is a year later or after
      two years of study. An Eckist has to ask
      for the Second Initiation, but is forbidden
      to ask for any others!

      When do the other initiations come ?
      How many are there ? These are just
      two questions Eckankar avoids answering.

      Here's what Klemp's EK Lexicon took
      from Twitchell's Eckankar Dictionary:

      "INITIATION. The Basic sacrament in ECK;
      the First Step on the Path of God via the
      ECK; the structure upon the Whole Foundation
      of the Spiritual Works are built; the Means
      by which the Sacred Forces within the Individual
      are Reactivated to Increase and Confer within
      Soul the Awareness of the Supernatural state
      of Life." [pg. 95]

      It's interesting that PT mentions the "ECK"
      and "Sacred Forces" and the "Individual" and
      "Soul" while Not mentioning anything about
      the Inner Master or the Mahanta!

      "INNER INITIATION. Serves the function
      of Raising the Vibrations of the individual
      to those of the Nearest Higher Plane. THE
      INNER INITIATION MAY COME YEARS BEFORE
      THE OUTER INITIATION..."

      It's wishful thinking that many 7ths see
      themselves as 8ths (on the inner). What
      else do they have? You can't blame them
      for pretending "as if" they actually were
      8th initiates after 35-40 years!

      "...The FIRST Initiation is an Inner Initiation
      given in the Dream State by the Dream Master.
      Sometimes a Chela is Fully Conscious and
      can remember everything about it; it prepares
      the Chela for the Linkup with the ECK Sound
      Current, the Audible Life Stream. ALL INITIATIONS
      ABOVE THE EIGHTH ARE INNER INITIATIONS."
      [pg. 96]

      BTW, this last statement (above) was added
      to PT's definition by Klemp (compare it for
      yourself). This is very strange since this EK
      Lexicon was written in 1998 and The Masters
      4 Discourses, Lesson 2 was written in 1995.
      In Lesson 2 Klemp states that the 9th initiation
      has 3 Stages and the Third and Last Stage
      is The OUTER Confirmation!

      Thus, Klemp has contradicted himself by
      saying that, "All initiations above the eighth
      are inner initiations" when the Third and Final
      Stage, of the 9th initiation, requires an "outer
      confirmation."

      However, there's even more confusion and
      secrecy concerning initiations within Eckankar
      as there is with other religions and groups.
      The secrecy is meant to silence people (chelas)
      from scrutinizing this phenomena and these
      definitions and criteria more so. Actually,
      Eckankar gives NO criteria for obtaining
      initiations. Except, a chela must maintain
      a current annual membership donation
      ($$$).

      Thus, a Requested annual donation amount
      is Required for more EK initiations, and to
      hold onto positions within the RESA Hierarchy.

      What's interesting is that the 12th Initiation
      is actually both Outer and Inner because
      the LEM must physically approach and ask
      a candidate if they would like to have the
      initiation because it, too, requires outer
      confirmation.

      However, the 10th and the 11th Initiations
      don't require any outer confirmations and
      are (both) shorter in time that the First Initiation!
      Why's that... convenience?

      Then, of course, it requires an initiator who
      has a Higher Initiation Number than the one
      being given! Thus, Darwin had to be a 13th
      or 14th to have given Klemp his 12th!

      And, what level of initiation is Klemp claiming
      to have at this time? The 14th is required
      to be a Mahanta (as PT claims), but there
      are, supposedly, more and more initiations.
      So, what Initiation is Klemp holding onto
      now (with a death grip)? Why is this such
      a secret? Could it be that HK's a 666th Initiate
      while most of his longtime H.I.s are 7ths!

      BTW- Who was the 666th LEM? HK doesn't
      even know how Shams died or who that
      "Unknown" EK Master was! Why's that?

      Prometheus
    • whitemoby22
      I enjoyed this post, prometheus. To my mind, initiations are one of the keys to understanding the eck mentality. I personally believe that klemp requires
      Message 2 of 4 , Sep 12, 2009
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        I enjoyed this post, prometheus. To my mind, "initiations" are one of the keys to understanding the eck mentality. I personally believe that klemp requires the last stage in the 9th initiation to be OUTER because this gives the corp more control. This gives the corp absolute control over the very few who will get beyond the 9th.

        I know, and saw for myself, that eck initiation levels WERE NOT kept hidden in eck communities. Believe me, everybody knew everybody's number, and each person was treated/respect accordingly. Oh yes, low level initiates were treated kindly, but it was a condescending kindness. Like, I'm so far above you - ain't I swell to be talkig to you at all?

        Higher Initiates are held in regard inside the eckankar world. I saw it myself. But here are my two questions for prometheus, or anyone:

        #1 When a person gets up to the 5th initiation (or beyond), how do they explain to themselves that they're really no different than they ever were? Have you ever seen any indication that high initiation levels confers any greater awareness, etc upon the initiate?

        #2 Do eckists believe that higher initiate levels correspond to any improvement in their outer circumstances? Do they believe that their lives become better in any worldly/material kinda way?

        Thanks, moby...







        In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > In Eckankar the First initiation is said
        > to, usually, come in The Dream State
        > by the end of the first year and the
        > Second initiation is a year later or after
        > two years of study. An Eckist has to ask
        > for the Second Initiation, but is forbidden
        > to ask for any others!
        >
        > When do the other initiations come ?
        > How many are there ? These are just
        > two questions Eckankar avoids answering.
        >
        > Here's what Klemp's EK Lexicon took
        > from Twitchell's Eckankar Dictionary:
        >
        > "INITIATION. The Basic sacrament in ECK;
        > the First Step on the Path of God via the
        > ECK; the structure upon the Whole Foundation
        > of the Spiritual Works are built; the Means
        > by which the Sacred Forces within the Individual
        > are Reactivated to Increase and Confer within
        > Soul the Awareness of the Supernatural state
        > of Life." [pg. 95]
        >
        > It's interesting that PT mentions the "ECK"
        > and "Sacred Forces" and the "Individual" and
        > "Soul" while Not mentioning anything about
        > the Inner Master or the Mahanta!
        >
        > "INNER INITIATION. Serves the function
        > of Raising the Vibrations of the individual
        > to those of the Nearest Higher Plane. THE
        > INNER INITIATION MAY COME YEARS BEFORE
        > THE OUTER INITIATION..."
        >
        > It's wishful thinking that many 7ths see
        > themselves as 8ths (on the inner). What
        > else do they have? You can't blame them
        > for pretending "as if" they actually were
        > 8th initiates after 35-40 years!
        >
        > "...The FIRST Initiation is an Inner Initiation
        > given in the Dream State by the Dream Master.
        > Sometimes a Chela is Fully Conscious and
        > can remember everything about it; it prepares
        > the Chela for the Linkup with the ECK Sound
        > Current, the Audible Life Stream. ALL INITIATIONS
        > ABOVE THE EIGHTH ARE INNER INITIATIONS."
        > [pg. 96]
        >
        > BTW, this last statement (above) was added
        > to PT's definition by Klemp (compare it for
        > yourself). This is very strange since this EK
        > Lexicon was written in 1998 and The Masters
        > 4 Discourses, Lesson 2 was written in 1995.
        > In Lesson 2 Klemp states that the 9th initiation
        > has 3 Stages and the Third and Last Stage
        > is The OUTER Confirmation!
        >
        > Thus, Klemp has contradicted himself by
        > saying that, "All initiations above the eighth
        > are inner initiations" when the Third and Final
        > Stage, of the 9th initiation, requires an "outer
        > confirmation."
        >
        > However, there's even more confusion and
        > secrecy concerning initiations within Eckankar
        > as there is with other religions and groups.
        > The secrecy is meant to silence people (chelas)
        > from scrutinizing this phenomena and these
        > definitions and criteria more so. Actually,
        > Eckankar gives NO criteria for obtaining
        > initiations. Except, a chela must maintain
        > a current annual membership donation
        > ($$$).
        >
        > Thus, a Requested annual donation amount
        > is Required for more EK initiations, and to
        > hold onto positions within the RESA Hierarchy.
        >
        > What's interesting is that the 12th Initiation
        > is actually both Outer and Inner because
        > the LEM must physically approach and ask
        > a candidate if they would like to have the
        > initiation because it, too, requires outer
        > confirmation.
        >
        > However, the 10th and the 11th Initiations
        > don't require any outer confirmations and
        > are (both) shorter in time that the First Initiation!
        > Why's that... convenience?
        >
        > Then, of course, it requires an initiator who
        > has a Higher Initiation Number than the one
        > being given! Thus, Darwin had to be a 13th
        > or 14th to have given Klemp his 12th!
        >
        > And, what level of initiation is Klemp claiming
        > to have at this time? The 14th is required
        > to be a Mahanta (as PT claims), but there
        > are, supposedly, more and more initiations.
        > So, what Initiation is Klemp holding onto
        > now (with a death grip)? Why is this such
        > a secret? Could it be that HK's a 666th Initiate
        > while most of his longtime H.I.s are 7ths!
        >
        > BTW- Who was the 666th LEM? HK doesn't
        > even know how Shams died or who that
        > "Unknown" EK Master was! Why's that?
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Moby and All, Yes, every Eckist pretty much knows, or tries to find out, the initiation circle (level/number) of each Eckist they come in contact with.
        Message 3 of 4 , Sep 13, 2009
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          Hello Moby and All,
          Yes, every Eckist pretty much knows,
          or tries to find out, the initiation circle
          (level/number) of each Eckist they come
          in contact with.

          There used to be Circles of Initiation
          Workshops at major EK Seminars (mid
          1980's) and these "Circles" Workshops
          were, also, encouraged for the RESAs
          to promote for Local EK Satsang (Chela)
          Events. Every level/circle of initiate had
          their own workshop to attend and I.D.s
          were checked at the door of each workshop.

          Now, Klemp has creatively "changed"
          his direction.

          The following is from the 09/2009
          The H.I. Letter (pg. 3)--

          "Worldwide Wind of Creativity

          In tune with the upcoming spiritual
          year, A Year of Creativity, you will find
          a fresh, new program awaiting High
          Initiates at the 2009 ECK Worldwide
          Seminar:

          * an H.I. meeting Saturday morning
          that has a new look and heightened
          spiritual focus;

          * a special workshop for H.I.'s, offered
          both Friday and Saturday, centered on
          Sri Harold's HOLY FIRE of ECK Books--
          especially the latest volume, The Holy
          Fire of ECK, Book 3--with ample time
          to share insights with fellow Brothers
          of the Leaf.

          [Klemp gets to sell more-of-the-same
          (book 3) and makes 50% royalties from
          his books while he lets H.I.s "share"
          more-of-the-same as well!]

          * updated trainings--offered Only at
          Worldwide Seminars--for ECK Clerics,
          Initiators, and ESAs.

          [This helps to increase the seminar
          numbers ($$$) with the financial
          burden placed mostly upon the H.I.s
          who want that training in order to
          qualify for that next initiation. 5ths
          have to become "Clerics" to become
          eligible to become "Initiators," and 6ths,
          in order to become "ESAs" in order
          to become eligible for the 7th! Some
          6ths (who are ESAs) get their 7ths by
          becoming RESAs since RESAs have to
          be at least a 7th.]

          With these new areas of emphasis, the
          H.I. GET-TOGETHER, SEVENTH Initiates
          Meeting, and EIGHTH Initiate Meeting
          are being Retired.

          [All H.I.s now have to rub shoulders
          and share EK speak with lower initiates
          as a means of SERVICE. Will HK and JK
          be rubbing shoulders and "connecting,"
          too, for the sake of SERVICE to "fellow
          Attendees," or is this just more lip SERVICE
          and DO AS I SAY AND NOT AS I DO for
          the Klemps? ]

          These changes will offer you New
          Spiritual Vistas and Opportunities
          to Connect with Fellow Attendees
          [1th-8th Circle Initiates] and Grow
          through SERVICE at the Seminar and
          as Leaders in our Creative and Vibrant
          ECK spiritual community." [END (my
          brackets and caps)]



          Anyway, Moby, I'll see if I can answer
          your questions below--

          whitemoby wrote:

          I enjoyed this post, prometheus.
          To my mind, "initiations" are one
          of the keys to understanding the
          eck mentality. I personally believe
          that klemp requires the last stage
          in the 9th initiation to be OUTER
          because this gives the corp more
          control. This gives the corp absolute
          control over the very few who will
          get beyond the 9th.

          I know, and saw for myself, that
          eck initiation levels WERE NOT
          kept hidden in eck communities.
          Believe me, everybody knew everybody's
          number, and each person was treated/
          respect accordingly. Oh yes, low level
          initiates were treated kindly, but it
          was a condescending kindness. Like,
          I'm so far above you - ain't I swell
          to be talking to you at all?

          Higher Initiates are held in regard
          inside the eckankar world. I saw it
          myself. But here are my two questions
          for prometheus, or anyone:



          #1 When a person gets up to the
          5th initiation (or beyond), how do
          they explain to themselves that
          they're really no different than they
          ever were?

          P- People rationalize much of the
          time, and Klemp encourages his
          followers to imagine and to pretend
          "as if." Besides, look at the followers
          of other religions and how they follow
          and interpret dogma and rationalize
          as well. People, also, tend to follow
          local religious or spiritual experts
          they have placed trust in, or have
          put upon a pedestal, because they
          have direct contact with them versus
          the "Leader." A local Satsang area
          can look like a separate sect of that
          same religion depending upon the
          RESA. Over decades more dogma, rules,
          guidelines, and laws get added and
          "tweaked" which makes everything,
          Eckankar, more complex and more
          confusing. This causes Second Guessing
          and Imbalance and a NEED to have the
          Leader (HK) explain and reinterpret
          (over and over) the true meaning behind
          life and the confusion (of dogma) HK,
          himself, has revised and promoted.
          Thus, this Catch-22 ploy, of Klemp's,
          has created a necessary evil and a
          never-ending need for a "Living Master"
          in order for him to de-cypher and
          clarify the obvious.



          Have you ever seen any indication
          that high initiation levels confers
          any greater awareness, etc upon
          the initiate?

          P- Not per se! However, if a person
          is focused upon self-improvement
          and upon spiritual growth these goals
          will be achieved, in part and over time,
          with or without the help of a "Master,"
          or a religion to follow. The so-called
          "Master" just takes credit for what happens
          naturally when Soul is focused upon
          the Divine. This is the TRAP and the
          Catch-22 of all religious dogma.




          #2 Do eckists believe that higher
          initiate levels correspond to any
          improvement in their outer circumstances?

          P- Yes and No! Klemp takes credit for
          the "Good" that takes place in the lives
          of his followers. However, "true blue"
          Eckists Do Not want "good karma" because
          this too will hinder their spiritual growth.
          They want to be "above" and "without"
          karma in a vairag (nonattached/detached)
          state of mind. Yet, they don't want pain
          or troubles either. And, when there are
          problems they see these as "tests." NO
          where does Klemp, actually, Protect or
          Heal his chelas, except in chela's dreams
          and/or imaginations (and delusions),
          anymore than Jesus or the Virgin Mary,
          etc. etc do for other religious believers!

          Getting back to your question-- Many Eckists
          believe they have used up their "good karma,"
          for this lifetime, by finding Eckankar and, thus,
          don't expect prosperity. Most, therefore, have
          a poverty consciousness and a fatalistic attitude
          toward life. Eckists, also, have become very
          codependent upon Klemp and believe in his
          delusional promises. It's "The Easy Way,"
          for them, to accept a subservient position
          as a "follower" rather than take responsibility
          as SOUL. Thus, Eckists are no different from
          other faithful religious followers, except, in
          their minds!



          Do they believe that their lives become
          better in any worldly/material kinda way?

          P- They [Eckists] believe it by rationalizing.
          Success and materialism can be justified
          as a "divine gift" in order to reach a different
          social and/or intellectual group/class of people
          so that they can spread the "Word" as a vahana/
          missionary by being an example or a spokes-
          person... or as (temporary) good karma. And,
          their material/intellectual success is used by
          Klemp to attract more professionals to Eckankar.
          This gives HK's big fat ego an air of respectability
          (HK is in the International Who's Who of Intellectuals,
          Ninth edition). And, this, too, is used to prove/
          show that Eckankar is not a "dangerous" cult.
          Professionals, also, climb the initiation ladder
          faster than the average Eckist because they
          are more high profile, but appearances are
          very deceiving in this KAL like religion.

          Prometheus

          Thanks, moby...


          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > In Eckankar the First initiation is said
          > to, usually, come in The Dream State
          > by the end of the first year and the
          > Second initiation is a year later or after
          > two years of study. An Eckist has to ask
          > for the Second Initiation, but is forbidden
          > to ask for any others!
          >
          > When do the other initiations come ?
          > How many are there ? These are just
          > two questions Eckankar avoids answering.
          >
          > Here's what Klemp's EK Lexicon took
          > from Twitchell's Eckankar Dictionary:
          >
          > "INITIATION. The Basic sacrament in ECK;
          > the First Step on the Path of God via the
          > ECK; the structure upon the Whole Foundation
          > of the Spiritual Works are built; the Means
          > by which the Sacred Forces within the Individual
          > are Reactivated to Increase and Confer within
          > Soul the Awareness of the Supernatural state
          > of Life." [pg. 95]
          >
          > It's interesting that PT mentions the "ECK"
          > and "Sacred Forces" and the "Individual" and
          > "Soul" while Not mentioning anything about
          > the Inner Master or the Mahanta!
          >
          > "INNER INITIATION. Serves the function
          > of Raising the Vibrations of the individual
          > to those of the Nearest Higher Plane. THE
          > INNER INITIATION MAY COME YEARS BEFORE
          > THE OUTER INITIATION..."
          >
          > It's wishful thinking that many 7ths see
          > themselves as 8ths (on the inner). What
          > else do they have? You can't blame them
          > for pretending "as if" they actually were
          > 8th initiates after 35-40 years!
          >
          > "...The FIRST Initiation is an Inner Initiation
          > given in the Dream State by the Dream Master.
          > Sometimes a Chela is Fully Conscious and
          > can remember everything about it; it prepares
          > the Chela for the Linkup with the ECK Sound
          > Current, the Audible Life Stream. ALL INITIATIONS
          > ABOVE THE EIGHTH ARE INNER INITIATIONS."
          > [pg. 96]
          >
          > BTW, this last statement (above) was added
          > to PT's definition by Klemp (compare it for
          > yourself). This is very strange since this EK
          > Lexicon was written in 1998 and The Masters
          > 4 Discourses, Lesson 2 was written in 1995.
          > In Lesson 2 Klemp states that the 9th initiation
          > has 3 Stages and the Third and Last Stage
          > is The OUTER Confirmation!
          >
          > Thus, Klemp has contradicted himself by
          > saying that, "All initiations above the eighth
          > are inner initiations" when the Third and Final
          > Stage, of the 9th initiation, requires an "outer
          > confirmation."
          >
          > However, there's even more confusion and
          > secrecy concerning initiations within Eckankar
          > as there is with other religions and groups.
          > The secrecy is meant to silence people (chelas)
          > from scrutinizing this phenomena and these
          > definitions and criteria more so. Actually,
          > Eckankar gives NO criteria for obtaining
          > initiations. Except, a chela must maintain
          > a current annual membership donation
          > ($$$).
          >
          > Thus, a Requested annual donation amount
          > is Required for more EK initiations, and to
          > hold onto positions within the RESA Hierarchy.
          >
          > What's interesting is that the 12th Initiation
          > is actually both Outer and Inner because
          > the LEM must physically approach and ask
          > a candidate if they would like to have the
          > initiation because it, too, requires outer
          > confirmation.
          >
          > However, the 10th and the 11th Initiations
          > don't require any outer confirmations and
          > are (both) shorter in time that the First Initiation!
          > Why's that... convenience?
          >
          > Then, of course, it requires an initiator who
          > has a Higher Initiation Number than the one
          > being given! Thus, Darwin had to be a 13th
          > or 14th to have given Klemp his 12th!
          >
          > And, what level of initiation is Klemp claiming
          > to have at this time? The 14th is required
          > to be a Mahanta (as PT claims), but there
          > are, supposedly, more and more initiations.
          > So, what Initiation is Klemp holding onto
          > now (with a death grip)? Why is this such
          > a secret? Could it be that HK's a 666th Initiate
          > while most of his longtime H.I.s are 7ths!
          >
          > BTW- Who was the 666th LEM? HK doesn't
          > even know how Shams died or who that
          > "Unknown" EK Master was! Why's that?
          >
          > Prometheus
        • whitemoby22
          Hey Prometheus and all; I had to take a couple days to digest this post. I cannot believe that HIs have to pay for thier own updated training? OMG. That is
          Message 4 of 4 , Sep 14, 2009
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            Hey Prometheus and all; I had to take a couple days to digest this post. I cannot believe that HIs have to pay for thier own updated training? OMG. That is tantamount to buying a higher initiation. And it is true what you say about each eck community being different. I used to travel a great deal, and knew 3 eck communites, in 3 separate cities, quite well. And yes, they each had their own distinct flavor. Very distinct.

            Your comment about fatalism caught my eye. I have always believed that any teaching which is sant mat related, could easily become fatalistic in the psyche of the individual. And Eckankar is most certainly sant mat derivative.

            moby...





            >
            > Hello Moby and All,
            > Yes, every Eckist pretty much knows,
            > or tries to find out, the initiation circle
            > (level/number) of each Eckist they come
            > in contact with.
            >
            > There used to be Circles of Initiation
            > Workshops at major EK Seminars (mid
            > 1980's) and these "Circles" Workshops
            > were, also, encouraged for the RESAs
            > to promote for Local EK Satsang (Chela)
            > Events. Every level/circle of initiate had
            > their own workshop to attend and I.D.s
            > were checked at the door of each workshop.
            >
            > Now, Klemp has creatively "changed"
            > his direction.
            >
            > The following is from the 09/2009
            > The H.I. Letter (pg. 3)--
            >
            > "Worldwide Wind of Creativity
            >
            > In tune with the upcoming spiritual
            > year, A Year of Creativity, you will find
            > a fresh, new program awaiting High
            > Initiates at the 2009 ECK Worldwide
            > Seminar:
            >
            > * an H.I. meeting Saturday morning
            > that has a new look and heightened
            > spiritual focus;
            >
            > * a special workshop for H.I.'s, offered
            > both Friday and Saturday, centered on
            > Sri Harold's HOLY FIRE of ECK Books--
            > especially the latest volume, The Holy
            > Fire of ECK, Book 3--with ample time
            > to share insights with fellow Brothers
            > of the Leaf.
            >
            > [Klemp gets to sell more-of-the-same
            > (book 3) and makes 50% royalties from
            > his books while he lets H.I.s "share"
            > more-of-the-same as well!]
            >
            > * updated trainings--offered Only at
            > Worldwide Seminars--for ECK Clerics,
            > Initiators, and ESAs.
            >
            > [This helps to increase the seminar
            > numbers ($$$) with the financial
            > burden placed mostly upon the H.I.s
            > who want that training in order to
            > qualify for that next initiation. 5ths
            > have to become "Clerics" to become
            > eligible to become "Initiators," and 6ths,
            > in order to become "ESAs" in order
            > to become eligible for the 7th! Some
            > 6ths (who are ESAs) get their 7ths by
            > becoming RESAs since RESAs have to
            > be at least a 7th.]
            >
            > With these new areas of emphasis, the
            > H.I. GET-TOGETHER, SEVENTH Initiates
            > Meeting, and EIGHTH Initiate Meeting
            > are being Retired.
            >
            > [All H.I.s now have to rub shoulders
            > and share EK speak with lower initiates
            > as a means of SERVICE. Will HK and JK
            > be rubbing shoulders and "connecting,"
            > too, for the sake of SERVICE to "fellow
            > Attendees," or is this just more lip SERVICE
            > and DO AS I SAY AND NOT AS I DO for
            > the Klemps? ]
            >
            > These changes will offer you New
            > Spiritual Vistas and Opportunities
            > to Connect with Fellow Attendees
            > [1th-8th Circle Initiates] and Grow
            > through SERVICE at the Seminar and
            > as Leaders in our Creative and Vibrant
            > ECK spiritual community." [END (my
            > brackets and caps)]
            >
            >
            >
            > Anyway, Moby, I'll see if I can answer
            > your questions below--
            >
            > whitemoby wrote:
            >
            > I enjoyed this post, prometheus.
            > To my mind, "initiations" are one
            > of the keys to understanding the
            > eck mentality. I personally believe
            > that klemp requires the last stage
            > in the 9th initiation to be OUTER
            > because this gives the corp more
            > control. This gives the corp absolute
            > control over the very few who will
            > get beyond the 9th.
            >
            > I know, and saw for myself, that
            > eck initiation levels WERE NOT
            > kept hidden in eck communities.
            > Believe me, everybody knew everybody's
            > number, and each person was treated/
            > respect accordingly. Oh yes, low level
            > initiates were treated kindly, but it
            > was a condescending kindness. Like,
            > I'm so far above you - ain't I swell
            > to be talking to you at all?
            >
            > Higher Initiates are held in regard
            > inside the eckankar world. I saw it
            > myself. But here are my two questions
            > for prometheus, or anyone:
            >
            >
            >
            > #1 When a person gets up to the
            > 5th initiation (or beyond), how do
            > they explain to themselves that
            > they're really no different than they
            > ever were?
            >
            > P- People rationalize much of the
            > time, and Klemp encourages his
            > followers to imagine and to pretend
            > "as if." Besides, look at the followers
            > of other religions and how they follow
            > and interpret dogma and rationalize
            > as well. People, also, tend to follow
            > local religious or spiritual experts
            > they have placed trust in, or have
            > put upon a pedestal, because they
            > have direct contact with them versus
            > the "Leader." A local Satsang area
            > can look like a separate sect of that
            > same religion depending upon the
            > RESA. Over decades more dogma, rules,
            > guidelines, and laws get added and
            > "tweaked" which makes everything,
            > Eckankar, more complex and more
            > confusing. This causes Second Guessing
            > and Imbalance and a NEED to have the
            > Leader (HK) explain and reinterpret
            > (over and over) the true meaning behind
            > life and the confusion (of dogma) HK,
            > himself, has revised and promoted.
            > Thus, this Catch-22 ploy, of Klemp's,
            > has created a necessary evil and a
            > never-ending need for a "Living Master"
            > in order for him to de-cypher and
            > clarify the obvious.
            >
            >
            >
            > Have you ever seen any indication
            > that high initiation levels confers
            > any greater awareness, etc upon
            > the initiate?
            >
            > P- Not per se! However, if a person
            > is focused upon self-improvement
            > and upon spiritual growth these goals
            > will be achieved, in part and over time,
            > with or without the help of a "Master,"
            > or a religion to follow. The so-called
            > "Master" just takes credit for what happens
            > naturally when Soul is focused upon
            > the Divine. This is the TRAP and the
            > Catch-22 of all religious dogma.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > #2 Do eckists believe that higher
            > initiate levels correspond to any
            > improvement in their outer circumstances?
            >
            > P- Yes and No! Klemp takes credit for
            > the "Good" that takes place in the lives
            > of his followers. However, "true blue"
            > Eckists Do Not want "good karma" because
            > this too will hinder their spiritual growth.
            > They want to be "above" and "without"
            > karma in a vairag (nonattached/detached)
            > state of mind. Yet, they don't want pain
            > or troubles either. And, when there are
            > problems they see these as "tests." NO
            > where does Klemp, actually, Protect or
            > Heal his chelas, except in chela's dreams
            > and/or imaginations (and delusions),
            > anymore than Jesus or the Virgin Mary,
            > etc. etc do for other religious believers!
            >
            > Getting back to your question-- Many Eckists
            > believe they have used up their "good karma,"
            > for this lifetime, by finding Eckankar and, thus,
            > don't expect prosperity. Most, therefore, have
            > a poverty consciousness and a fatalistic attitude
            > toward life. Eckists, also, have become very
            > codependent upon Klemp and believe in his
            > delusional promises. It's "The Easy Way,"
            > for them, to accept a subservient position
            > as a "follower" rather than take responsibility
            > as SOUL. Thus, Eckists are no different from
            > other faithful religious followers, except, in
            > their minds!
            >
            >
            >
            > Do they believe that their lives become
            > better in any worldly/material kinda way?
            >
            > P- They [Eckists] believe it by rationalizing.
            > Success and materialism can be justified
            > as a "divine gift" in order to reach a different
            > social and/or intellectual group/class of people
            > so that they can spread the "Word" as a vahana/
            > missionary by being an example or a spokes-
            > person... or as (temporary) good karma. And,
            > their material/intellectual success is used by
            > Klemp to attract more professionals to Eckankar.
            > This gives HK's big fat ego an air of respectability
            > (HK is in the International Who's Who of Intellectuals,
            > Ninth edition). And, this, too, is used to prove/
            > show that Eckankar is not a "dangerous" cult.
            > Professionals, also, climb the initiation ladder
            > faster than the average Eckist because they
            > are more high profile, but appearances are
            > very deceiving in this KAL like religion.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > Thanks, moby...
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > In Eckankar the First initiation is said
            > > to, usually, come in The Dream State
            > > by the end of the first year and the
            > > Second initiation is a year later or after
            > > two years of study. An Eckist has to ask
            > > for the Second Initiation, but is forbidden
            > > to ask for any others!
            > >
            > > When do the other initiations come ?
            > > How many are there ? These are just
            > > two questions Eckankar avoids answering.
            > >
            > > Here's what Klemp's EK Lexicon took
            > > from Twitchell's Eckankar Dictionary:
            > >
            > > "INITIATION. The Basic sacrament in ECK;
            > > the First Step on the Path of God via the
            > > ECK; the structure upon the Whole Foundation
            > > of the Spiritual Works are built; the Means
            > > by which the Sacred Forces within the Individual
            > > are Reactivated to Increase and Confer within
            > > Soul the Awareness of the Supernatural state
            > > of Life." [pg. 95]
            > >
            > > It's interesting that PT mentions the "ECK"
            > > and "Sacred Forces" and the "Individual" and
            > > "Soul" while Not mentioning anything about
            > > the Inner Master or the Mahanta!
            > >
            > > "INNER INITIATION. Serves the function
            > > of Raising the Vibrations of the individual
            > > to those of the Nearest Higher Plane. THE
            > > INNER INITIATION MAY COME YEARS BEFORE
            > > THE OUTER INITIATION..."
            > >
            > > It's wishful thinking that many 7ths see
            > > themselves as 8ths (on the inner). What
            > > else do they have? You can't blame them
            > > for pretending "as if" they actually were
            > > 8th initiates after 35-40 years!
            > >
            > > "...The FIRST Initiation is an Inner Initiation
            > > given in the Dream State by the Dream Master.
            > > Sometimes a Chela is Fully Conscious and
            > > can remember everything about it; it prepares
            > > the Chela for the Linkup with the ECK Sound
            > > Current, the Audible Life Stream. ALL INITIATIONS
            > > ABOVE THE EIGHTH ARE INNER INITIATIONS."
            > > [pg. 96]
            > >
            > > BTW, this last statement (above) was added
            > > to PT's definition by Klemp (compare it for
            > > yourself). This is very strange since this EK
            > > Lexicon was written in 1998 and The Masters
            > > 4 Discourses, Lesson 2 was written in 1995.
            > > In Lesson 2 Klemp states that the 9th initiation
            > > has 3 Stages and the Third and Last Stage
            > > is The OUTER Confirmation!
            > >
            > > Thus, Klemp has contradicted himself by
            > > saying that, "All initiations above the eighth
            > > are inner initiations" when the Third and Final
            > > Stage, of the 9th initiation, requires an "outer
            > > confirmation."
            > >
            > > However, there's even more confusion and
            > > secrecy concerning initiations within Eckankar
            > > as there is with other religions and groups.
            > > The secrecy is meant to silence people (chelas)
            > > from scrutinizing this phenomena and these
            > > definitions and criteria more so. Actually,
            > > Eckankar gives NO criteria for obtaining
            > > initiations. Except, a chela must maintain
            > > a current annual membership donation
            > > ($$$).
            > >
            > > Thus, a Requested annual donation amount
            > > is Required for more EK initiations, and to
            > > hold onto positions within the RESA Hierarchy.
            > >
            > > What's interesting is that the 12th Initiation
            > > is actually both Outer and Inner because
            > > the LEM must physically approach and ask
            > > a candidate if they would like to have the
            > > initiation because it, too, requires outer
            > > confirmation.
            > >
            > > However, the 10th and the 11th Initiations
            > > don't require any outer confirmations and
            > > are (both) shorter in time that the First Initiation!
            > > Why's that... convenience?
            > >
            > > Then, of course, it requires an initiator who
            > > has a Higher Initiation Number than the one
            > > being given! Thus, Darwin had to be a 13th
            > > or 14th to have given Klemp his 12th!
            > >
            > > And, what level of initiation is Klemp claiming
            > > to have at this time? The 14th is required
            > > to be a Mahanta (as PT claims), but there
            > > are, supposedly, more and more initiations.
            > > So, what Initiation is Klemp holding onto
            > > now (with a death grip)? Why is this such
            > > a secret? Could it be that HK's a 666th Initiate
            > > while most of his longtime H.I.s are 7ths!
            > >
            > > BTW- Who was the 666th LEM? HK doesn't
            > > even know how Shams died or who that
            > > "Unknown" EK Master was! Why's that?
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            >
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