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The H.I. Letter 09/2009 by Rev. Harold Klemp

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, These are excerpts only. Klemp s entire article makes me question his mental acuity. Really! Something is wrong... it has to be. This is just too
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 1, 2009
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      Hello All,

      These are excerpts only. Klemp's
      entire article makes me question
      his mental acuity. Really! Something
      is wrong... it has to be. This is just too
      basic and simple-minded for chelas
      let alone H.I.s! [My brackets and caps]

      HK: "People's states of consciousness
      rise by small steps, over many lifetimes.
      For example, any of us would likely be
      uncomfortable IF a giant's hand should
      pick us up and unceremoniously plop
      us down in a London marketplace way
      back in Shakespeare's time."

      ME: Next, Klemp tells us all about how
      bad the living conditions were back then
      versus now. However, what's this about
      "a giant's hand?" Is this "giant" the sky
      God or the Mahanta (Klemp)? Do H.I.s
      really need the image of a "giant's hand"
      to pick them up and take them to London,
      and back in time? Is this "giant" another
      Unknown EK Master?

      HK: "Their level of consciousness guides
      their behavior. [1] BUT they are learning
      too, step by step, drawing even closer to
      ECK. Why am I giving the ABCs of spiritual
      unfoldment? So you Do Not forget."

      ME: Maybe it's Klemp who is having
      the memory problems! ABCs? That's
      really too basic for those (H.I.s) with
      a superior/normal consciousness!
      Isn't it?

      HK: "Let them recall for you your own
      early steps toward the ECK teachings,
      this time around. You need to remember
      the `baby` you in order to be a clear channel
      for the Mahanta. Small, itty-bitty steps do
      lead to love divine."

      ME: "This time around" I doubt that
      "the baby you" remembers or did all
      that much that matters! Do H.I.s need
      to be spoon fed too? I don't know what
      these H.I.s think, but it seems that Klemp
      is talking down, way down, to them!
      Why does Klemp want H.I.s to digress
      in consciousness to earlier times? Or,
      is he saying that it takes "itty-bitty"
      baby "steps" to get to that next initiation
      and that's why it's taking so long...
      the same old excuse! Darwin handed
      out plenty of Higher Initiations and
      Klemp got his share and more!

      Why doesn't Klemp ever mention having
      empathy in order to be a `clear channel?'
      [Isn't being 'clear' a Scientology term?]
      Anyway, Klemp can't relate to having
      empathy. And, perhaps, many of these
      long-time H.I.s have surpassed him in
      consciousness! Thus, this message is
      meant to control them (HK needs the
      vahanas) and he's trying to smooth
      out their long-standing frustrations,
      with the RESA hierarchy, as well as,
      with sitting on those 7th initiations.
      HK needs to remind them of their place
      as subordinates and servants within
      the EK hierarchy. They will, forever,
      be babies needing his care. I'll bet
      Joan will be the one changing the
      diapers!

      Anyway, next, Klemp has a standard
      Nigerian story. This one is about finding
      money on the ground and NOT picking
      it up because IF you do you can get sick
      due to Karmic effects. This, of course,
      doesn't and never did make sense to
      me, but I used to follow this nutty EK
      practice too! Silly me! Now, I see "found"
      money as a positive blessing. And,
      I don't get sick after picking it up and
      keeping it... never did before EK and
      don't now!

      In retrospect, it's a very superstitious
      and negative practice (Black Magic)
      to believe that found money is karmically
      bad. However, this superstitious and
      ritualistic belief/mindset probably sounds
      believable with most New Age ECKists
      anywhere, and not just in Nigeria!
      What spiritual Law does picking up
      lost money violate? Klemp is never
      too specific.

      http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/nigeria/nigeria_religion.html

      HK: "[2] BUT a fellow passenger, who
      had been a listener until then, told a story.
      He admitted to being a lucky person
      who often found money in the street..."

      ME: Next, Klemp has a story about
      "Jen" and her depression due to her
      mother's death and how the Mahanta
      "gave" her two dogs, and then healed
      one of them via a miracle!

      HK: "`Jen' had suffered the unexpected
      loss of her mother Several Years Earlier
      and had then fallen into a deep state of
      depression. [3] BUT the Mahanta brought
      two Boston terriers, `Lady' and `Fifi,'
      into her life. They lifted Jen's depression."

      ME: Why did Klemp, the Mahanta, wait
      so long and then take credit? Why does
      Klemp take credit for only "good things"
      in the lives of his Chelas? Why didn't
      Klemp (the Mahanta) heal Jen's mother?
      Or, better yet, why didn't the Mahanta
      protect/heal Jen from having depression?

      And, couldn't HK comfort Jen with his
      words of wisdom or via dreams with
      her mother, etc.? See, this doesn't
      make sense that the "Inner Master"
      takes credit for giving her distractions
      or substitutes for her mother (two dogs)
      rather than resolving the issue of death
      with Jen and her recently departed mother.
      When non-ECKists buy two dogs, or have
      them given to them, after the death of
      a mother and/or father is the Mahanta/
      God (Klemp) doing this as well? No!

      HK: "Every day when Jen returned from
      work, the dogs would greet her at the
      door: Fifi would bounce; Lady, wiggle.
      That all changed one day. Fifi started
      for the door as usual [4] BUT suddenly
      let out a horrifying howl of pain. Alarmed,
      Jen took her to a vet."

      ME: Maybe Fifi found, and ate, some money
      while outside to potty! I wonder why she
      (this dog) had such Bad Karma? Maybe
      it was a "spiritual test" for Fifi? Nope! The
      dog had to go through this pain because
      Jen had to have a "dream" with EK Master
      Prajapati (the EK Master in charge of animals).
      Thus, Fifi was healed by Prajapati it was
      a "Miracle!" Apparently Fifi had a "change
      in consciousness." LOL! Maybe H.I.s should
      call upon Prajapati instead of the Mahanta
      (Klemp) to heal them as well!

      I'm still not sure why Jen didn't have
      a dream with her mother. After all, her
      mother's death is what caused her suffering
      and depression "years earlier!" Klemp,
      conveniently, skips over addressing this
      very important detail. So, why didn't Jen
      have a dream experience, with her mother,
      (or the Mahanta) that would resolve her
      depression? What happened to having
      an "inner" healing versus an outer one?

      HK: "So it is a reminder of how states
      of consciousness do vary. Let others
      know about the ECK, and the Mahanta
      will do the rest, as he sees fit, step-by-step."
      [end]

      ME: That "as he sees fit" sounds like
      a disclaimer and a Catch-22! And,
      "states of consciousness do vary"
      sounds like another clever escape
      clause.

      Thus, when things Don't Work Out for
      the chela it's because the Mahanta has
      judged him/her to be at fault. The chela
      is, always, to blame. The Teflon Mahanta,
      thus, can only do good and only takes
      credit for the "good" things that happen!
      Unless, it's a "spiritual test" for the H.I.,
      however, even "hard" tests lead to higher
      consciousness so it's All Good... again!

      BTW- Why does a chela need the ECK
      "and the Mahanta" to remedy a situation?
      Why not just call upon the Holy Spirit?
      That's what I do at times! Oh, I know why
      ECK H.I.s don't! It's the Codependency
      of Needing Klemp! The ECK is Free,
      whereas, the Mahanta (Klemp) charges
      money for an annual EK membership!

      Hey, I just realized that "found" money
      could be used for that annual EK Membership
      since it would be "donated" to a "non-profit"
      org. and would support the Mahanta's
      (God's) Mission around the world! Or,
      one could put the found money in a slot
      machine and take a chance on winning
      even more money to donate to ECKankar!
      Actually, EK H.I.s have done this!


      Prometheus
      p.s. Klemp uses 4 BUTS and continues
      to contradict his own teachings found
      in another H.I. Letter. Thus, this H.I.
      Letter (teaching), too, must be just as
      insignificant and irrelevant.
    • prometheus_973
      In the 12/2005 H.I. Letter Klemp (the M/LEM) gave special instructions/teachings to his Higher Initiates on the use of If, And, or But: However, using BUT
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 2, 2009
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        In the 12/2005 H.I. Letter
        Klemp (the M/LEM) gave special
        instructions/teachings to his
        Higher Initiates on the use of
        "If, And, or But:" However, using
        "BUT" was to, especially, be
        avoided with fellow ECKists!

        Now, Klemp uses "BUT" Four (4)
        Times in this recent 09/2009
        H.I. Letter and, thus, continues
        to contradict his own teachings
        found in the 12/2005 H.I. Letter.

        Thus, the "EK" teachings in this
        recent H.I. Letter, as well as, all
        "members only" correspondence,
        since 12/2005, must be just as
        insignificant and irrelevant to
        Klemp since he has violated his
        own instructions/teachings to
        his followers!

        BTW- Take a look at HK's use
        of "BUT" in the 09/2009 Mystic
        World. "May Thy Will Be Mine,"
        "Ask the Master," and "The Wisdom
        Notes (two topics)" have plenty
        of violations. Note the "EK Principle
        of the Threes" being violated as
        well!

        ******
        Here's what KLEMP had to say
        in this 12/2005 H.I. Letter:

        "Many are sharing their ideas
        from the Mental Arena, and it
        uplifts people.

        I look at the Ideas and Thoughts
        of Philosophers.

        One thing that strikes me about
        Immanuel Kant was something
        he said that Acts Out an appreciation
        for life, which shows Gratitude in
        Expression.

        He said, NO Ifs, Ands, or Buts.
        By this he meant, Make Your
        Statement Clean and Clear....

        When someone says BUT it is
        a Nail in the Coffin of Invention.
        A Constant Stream of Contradictions
        Shuts Off Creativity and a Gift
        that may be offered.

        And when someone says BUT,
        he's [HK] Stopped Listening.

        So Be Aware when using if.

        And Especially when using BUT,
        because it's Limiting. Move straight
        ahead. Don't Clutter things with if,
        and, or BUT. It throws a Condition
        Under Your Feet that is a Trip Wire.

        This is pretty much for ourselves..."



        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        >
        > These are excerpts only. Klemp's
        > entire article makes me question
        > his mental acuity. Really! Something
        > is wrong... it has to be. This is just too
        > basic and simple-minded for chelas
        > let alone H.I.s! [My brackets and caps]
        >
        > HK: "People's states of consciousness
        > rise by small steps, over many lifetimes.
        > For example, any of us would likely be
        > uncomfortable IF a giant's hand should
        > pick us up and unceremoniously plop
        > us down in a London marketplace way
        > back in Shakespeare's time."
        >
        > ME: Next, Klemp exaggerates and tells
        > us all about how bad the living conditions
        > were back then versus now. What's his point!
        > And, what's this about "a giant's hand?"
        > Is this "giant" the sky God or the Mahanta
        > (Klemp)? Do H.I.s really need the image
        > of a "giant's hand" to pick them up and
        > take them to London, and back in time?
        > Is this "giant" another Unknown EK Master?
        >
        > HK: "Their level of consciousness guides
        > their behavior. [1] BUT they are learning
        > too, step by step, drawing even closer to
        > ECK. Why am I giving the ABCs of spiritual
        > unfoldment? So you Do Not forget."
        >
        > ME: Maybe it's Klemp who is having
        > the memory problems! ABCs? That's
        > really too basic for those (H.I.s) with
        > a superior/normal consciousness!
        > Isn't it? Past lives, karma, learning
        > hard lessons, "step by step," and
        > growing in consciousness with or
        > without a phony "mahanta." So?
        > What's the point!
        >
        > HK: "Let them recall for you your own
        > early steps toward the ECK teachings,
        > this time around. You need to remember
        > the `baby` you in order to be a clear
        > channel for the Mahanta. Small, itty-
        > bitty steps do lead to love divine."
        >
        > ME: "This time around" I doubt that
        > "the baby you" remembers or did all
        > that much that matters! Doesn't the
        > "baby you" go back way beyond
        > "Shakespeare's time?" And, do H.I.s
        > need to be spoon fed too? I don't know
        > what these H.I.s think, but it seems
        > that Klemp is talking down, way down,
        > to them! Why does Klemp want H.I.s
        > to digress in consciousness to earlier
        > times? Or, is he saying that it takes
        > "itty-bitty" baby "steps" to get to that
        > next initiation and that's why it's taking
        > so long... the same old excuse! Darwin
        > handed out plenty of Higher Initiations
        > and Klemp got his share and more!
        >
        > Why doesn't Klemp ever mention having
        > empathy in order to be a `clear channel?'
        > [Isn't being 'clear' a Scientology term?]
        >
        > Anyway, Klemp can't relate to having
        > empathy. And, perhaps, many of these
        > long-time H.I.s have surpassed him in
        > consciousness! Thus, this message is
        > meant to control them (HK needs the
        > vahanas) and he's trying to smooth
        > out their long-standing frustrations,
        > with the RESA hierarchy, as well as,
        > with sitting on those 7th initiations.
        > HK needs to remind them of their place
        > as subordinates and servants within
        > the EK hierarchy. They will, forever,
        > be babies needing his care. I'll bet
        > Joan will be the one changing the
        > diapers!
        >
        > Next, Klemp has a standard Nigerian
        > story. This one is about finding money
        > on the ground and NOT picking it
        > up because IF you do you can get sick
        > due to Karmic effects. This, of course,
        > doesn't and never did make sense to
        > me, but I used to follow this nutty EK
        > practice too! Silly me! Now, I see "found"
        > money as a positive blessing. And,
        > I don't get sick after picking it up and
        > keeping it... never did before EK and
        > don't now!
        >
        > In retrospect, it's a very superstitious
        > and negative practice (Black Magic)
        > to believe that found money is karmically
        > bad. However, this superstitious and
        > ritualistic belief/mindset probably sounds
        > believable with most New Age ECKists
        > anywhere, and not just in Nigeria!
        > What spiritual Law does picking up
        > lost money violate? Klemp is never
        > too specific.
        >
        http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/nigeria/nigeria_religion.html
        >
        > HK: "[2] BUT a fellow passenger, who
        > had been a listener until then, told a story.
        > He admitted to being a lucky person
        > who often found money in the street..."
        >
        > ME: Next, Klemp has a story about
        > "Jen" and her depression due to her
        > mother's death (several years ago)
        > and how the Mahanta "gave" her two
        > dogs, and then had another EK Master
        > (working under the Mahanta) heal one
        > of them via a miracle!
        >
        > HK: "`Jen' had suffered the unexpected
        > loss of her mother Several Years Earlier
        > and had then fallen into a deep state of
        > depression. [3] BUT the Mahanta brought
        > two Boston terriers, `Lady' and `Fifi,'
        > into her life. They lifted Jen's depression."
        >
        > ME: Why did Klemp, the Mahanta, wait
        > so long and then take credit? Why does
        > Klemp take credit for only "good things"
        > in the lives of his Chelas? Why didn't
        > Klemp (the Mahanta) heal Jen's mother?
        > Or, better yet, why didn't the Mahanta
        > protect/heal Jen from having depression?
        >
        > And, couldn't HK comfort Jen with his
        > words of wisdom or via dreams with
        > her mother, etc.? See, this doesn't
        > make sense that the "Inner Master"
        > takes credit for giving her distractions
        > or substitutes for her mother (two dogs)
        > rather than resolving the issue of death
        > with Jen and her Not So Recently departed
        > mother.
        >
        > When non-ECKists buy two dogs, or have
        > them given to them, after the death of
        > a mother and/or father is the Mahanta/
        > God (Klemp) doing this as well? No! So,
        > why does Klemp (as the Mahanta) take
        > credit? He's teaching Codependency!
        >
        > HK: "Every day when Jen returned from
        > work, the dogs would greet her at the
        > door: Fifi would bounce; Lady, wiggle.
        > That all changed one day. Fifi started
        > for the door as usual [4] BUT suddenly
        > let out a horrifying howl of pain. Alarmed,
        > Jen took her to a vet."
        >
        > ME: Maybe Fifi found, and ate, some money
        > while outside to potty! I wonder why she
        > (this dog) had such Bad Karma? Maybe
        > it was a "spiritual test" for Fifi? Nope! The
        > dog had to go through this pain because
        > Jen had to have a "dream" with EK Master
        > Prajapati (the EK Master in charge of animals).
        > Thus, Fifi was healed by Prajapati it was
        > a "Miracle!" Apparently Fifi had a "change
        > in consciousness." LOL! Maybe H.I.s should
        > call upon Prajapati instead of the Mahanta
        > (Klemp) to heal them as well!
        >
        > I'm still not sure why Jen didn't have
        > a dream with her mother. After all, her
        > mother's death is what caused her suffering
        > and depression "years earlier!" Klemp,
        > conveniently, skips over addressing this
        > very important detail. So, why didn't Jen
        > have a dream experience, with her mother,
        > (or the Mahanta) that would resolve her
        > depression? What happened to having
        > an "inner" healing versus an outer one?
        >
        > HK: "So it is a reminder of how states
        > of consciousness do vary. Let others
        > know about the ECK, and the Mahanta
        > will do the rest, as he sees fit, step-by-step."
        > [end]
        >
        > ME: That "as he sees fit" sounds like
        > a disclaimer and a Catch-22! And,
        > "states of consciousness do vary"
        > sounds like another clever escape
        > clause.
        >
        > Thus, when things Don't Work Out for
        > the chela it's because the Mahanta has
        > judged him/her to be at fault. The chela
        > is, always, to blame. The Teflon Mahanta,
        > thus, can only do good and only takes
        > credit for the "good" things that happen!
        > Unless, it's a "spiritual test" for the H.I.,
        > however, even "hard" tests lead to higher
        > consciousness so it's All Good... again!
        >
        > BTW- Why does a chela need the ECK
        > "and the Mahanta" to remedy a situation?
        > Why not just call upon the Holy Spirit?
        > That's what I do at times! Oh, I know why
        > ECK H.I.s don't! It's the Codependency
        > of Needing Klemp! The ECK is Free,
        > whereas, the Mahanta (Klemp) charges
        > money for an annual EK membership!
        >
        > Hey, I just realized that "found" money
        > could be used for that annual EK Membership
        > since it would be "donated" to a "non-profit"
        > org. and would support the Mahanta's
        > (God's) Mission around the world! Or,
        > one could put the found money in a slot
        > machine and take a chance on winning
        > even more money to donate to ECKankar!
        > Actually, EK H.I.s have done this!
        >
        >
        > Prometheus
      • postekcon
        Picking Up Money from the Street Will Make You Sick Excerpt, H.I. Letter 09/2009 ... One day, he [HK follower] was sick. He felt an urge to ask God the
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 10, 2009
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          Picking Up Money from the Street 'Will Make You Sick'

          Excerpt, H.I. Letter 09/2009
          >>
          One day, he [HK follower] was sick. He felt an urge to ask God the
          reason for his sickness, his fever.
          In a dream, he was out walking, when he came upon some money. He bent
          down and picked it up. Just then, a madman [aka 'inner master'] ran
          towards him shouting, "Don't you know that it is the money you pick up
          that makes you sick? Drop it, or you'll be sick again!"
          The dreamer dropped the money. When he remembered the dream later, it
          became very clear that picking up another's property was the cause of
          his recurrent illnesses. He stopped the practice.
          >>

          In the above story HK explains how when an individual picks up an object
          that was once owned or handled by another person, it is 'bad karma'!

          Usually 'bad karma' is when a spiritual principle has been broken
          [either knowingly or unknowingly].

          The followers of HK have a major dilemma here, as HK fails to clarify
          what spiritual law they've violated should they pick up an object from
          the street. And since HK gives them no parameters whatsoever, paranoia
          and confusion will follow. So in trying to apply this 'new' ruling, will
          it also mean it is 'bad karma' for them to:

          - pick a wild flower or pebble from the beach [these will always be
          owned by someone, somewhere]
          - touch any object that was once owned or used by another person
          - breathe-in even, lest some of this air might contain expelled air from
          another!
          - and what if the object was gathered by an animal [they're recognized
          as soul too]
          - and is the karmic debt to the last handler of the property, or last
          owner/s?
          - and how do they teach their children now about 'karma' etc?

          N.B.
          In any case, money itself is never owned, it is only a currency [method
          of barter], a promissory 'note'.
          Written upon the US dollar bill are these words:
          THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE
          [perhaps the founding fathers intended to include karmic debt as well!
          LOL]

          It isn't necessary to elaborate any further on the paranoia and lack of
          understanding of the laws of the universe and laws of the land, HK
          demonstrates in his writings.

          CAUSE AND EFFECT
          Newton's Law of Motion: 'To every action there is an equal and opposite
          reaction'. Commonly known as 'cause and effect', this principle seems to
          give credibility to the concept of 'karma'. However, in some circles of
          science [atomic], Newton's law of motion is shown to be false.

          In the world of the 'atom', it's been scientifically proven that the
          packets or particles of energy which comprise the atom, DO NOT follow
          the principle of cause and effect, but instead follow randomity. So at
          atomic level, the principle of 'to every action there is an equal and
          opposite reaction' is incorrect.

          Consequently, this makes the case for karma wrong, for 'cause and
          effect' is not the way the universe works at all at its creative core or
          spiritual principle.

          So why then at present, is HK so hung-up on karma, rather than on
          fostering true creativity and randomity in his followers? It is because
          instilling fear is so effective as a control mechanism tool. The 'money'
          story [above] is a typical example of how HK uses auto-suggestion to
          consolidate habits of introversion in his followers. He instills in them
          fear so they become paralysed, unable even to reach out and pick up a
          button off the floor! This pattern of behaviour can only lead to mental
          illness and abberations of 'withdrawal' - downward spiral.
          [Remind you of anyone?]

          PS.
          To return to the original story as told by HK, it was a madman who
          explained to the HK follower, how picking up coins from the street was
          making him sick!
          Yes, truly a 'madman'...
          Postekcon



          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello All,
          >
          > These are excerpts only. Klemp's
          > entire article makes me question
          > his mental acuity. Really! Something
          > is wrong... it has to be. This is just too
          > basic and simple-minded for chelas
          > let alone H.I.s! [My brackets and caps]
          >
          > HK: "People's states of consciousness
          > rise by small steps, over many lifetimes.
          > For example, any of us would likely be
          > uncomfortable IF a giant's hand should
          > pick us up and unceremoniously plop
          > us down in a London marketplace way
          > back in Shakespeare's time."
          >
          > ME: Next, Klemp tells us all about how
          > bad the living conditions were back then
          > versus now. However, what's this about
          > "a giant's hand?" Is this "giant" the sky
          > God or the Mahanta (Klemp)? Do H.I.s
          > really need the image of a "giant's hand"
          > to pick them up and take them to London,
          > and back in time? Is this "giant" another
          > Unknown EK Master?
          >
          > HK: "Their level of consciousness guides
          > their behavior. [1] BUT they are learning
          > too, step by step, drawing even closer to
          > ECK. Why am I giving the ABCs of spiritual
          > unfoldment? So you Do Not forget."
          >
          > ME: Maybe it's Klemp who is having
          > the memory problems! ABCs? That's
          > really too basic for those (H.I.s) with
          > a superior/normal consciousness!
          > Isn't it?
          >
          > HK: "Let them recall for you your own
          > early steps toward the ECK teachings,
          > this time around. You need to remember
          > the `baby` you in order to be a clear channel
          > for the Mahanta. Small, itty-bitty steps do
          > lead to love divine."
          >
          > ME: "This time around" I doubt that
          > "the baby you" remembers or did all
          > that much that matters! Do H.I.s need
          > to be spoon fed too? I don't know what
          > these H.I.s think, but it seems that Klemp
          > is talking down, way down, to them!
          > Why does Klemp want H.I.s to digress
          > in consciousness to earlier times? Or,
          > is he saying that it takes "itty-bitty"
          > baby "steps" to get to that next initiation
          > and that's why it's taking so long...
          > the same old excuse! Darwin handed
          > out plenty of Higher Initiations and
          > Klemp got his share and more!
          >
          > Why doesn't Klemp ever mention having
          > empathy in order to be a `clear channel?'
          > [Isn't being 'clear' a Scientology term?]
          > Anyway, Klemp can't relate to having
          > empathy. And, perhaps, many of these
          > long-time H.I.s have surpassed him in
          > consciousness! Thus, this message is
          > meant to control them (HK needs the
          > vahanas) and he's trying to smooth
          > out their long-standing frustrations,
          > with the RESA hierarchy, as well as,
          > with sitting on those 7th initiations.
          > HK needs to remind them of their place
          > as subordinates and servants within
          > the EK hierarchy. They will, forever,
          > be babies needing his care. I'll bet
          > Joan will be the one changing the
          > diapers!
          >
          > Anyway, next, Klemp has a standard
          > Nigerian story. This one is about finding
          > money on the ground and NOT picking
          > it up because IF you do you can get sick
          > due to Karmic effects. This, of course,
          > doesn't and never did make sense to
          > me, but I used to follow this nutty EK
          > practice too! Silly me! Now, I see "found"
          > money as a positive blessing. And,
          > I don't get sick after picking it up and
          > keeping it... never did before EK and
          > don't now!
          >
          > In retrospect, it's a very superstitious
          > and negative practice (Black Magic)
          > to believe that found money is karmically
          > bad. However, this superstitious and
          > ritualistic belief/mindset probably sounds
          > believable with most New Age ECKists
          > anywhere, and not just in Nigeria!
          > What spiritual Law does picking up
          > lost money violate? Klemp is never
          > too specific.
          >
          > http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/nigeria/nigeria_religion.html
          >
          > HK: "[2] BUT a fellow passenger, who
          > had been a listener until then, told a story.
          > He admitted to being a lucky person
          > who often found money in the street..."
          >
          > ME: Next, Klemp has a story about
          > "Jen" and her depression due to her
          > mother's death and how the Mahanta
          > "gave" her two dogs, and then healed
          > one of them via a miracle!
          >
          > HK: "`Jen' had suffered the unexpected
          > loss of her mother Several Years Earlier
          > and had then fallen into a deep state of
          > depression. [3] BUT the Mahanta brought
          > two Boston terriers, `Lady' and `Fifi,'
          > into her life. They lifted Jen's depression."
          >
          > ME: Why did Klemp, the Mahanta, wait
          > so long and then take credit? Why does
          > Klemp take credit for only "good things"
          > in the lives of his Chelas? Why didn't
          > Klemp (the Mahanta) heal Jen's mother?
          > Or, better yet, why didn't the Mahanta
          > protect/heal Jen from having depression?
          >
          > And, couldn't HK comfort Jen with his
          > words of wisdom or via dreams with
          > her mother, etc.? See, this doesn't
          > make sense that the "Inner Master"
          > takes credit for giving her distractions
          > or substitutes for her mother (two dogs)
          > rather than resolving the issue of death
          > with Jen and her recently departed mother.
          > When non-ECKists buy two dogs, or have
          > them given to them, after the death of
          > a mother and/or father is the Mahanta/
          > God (Klemp) doing this as well? No!
          >
          > HK: "Every day when Jen returned from
          > work, the dogs would greet her at the
          > door: Fifi would bounce; Lady, wiggle.
          > That all changed one day. Fifi started
          > for the door as usual [4] BUT suddenly
          > let out a horrifying howl of pain. Alarmed,
          > Jen took her to a vet."
          >
          > ME: Maybe Fifi found, and ate, some money
          > while outside to potty! I wonder why she
          > (this dog) had such Bad Karma? Maybe
          > it was a "spiritual test" for Fifi? Nope! The
          > dog had to go through this pain because
          > Jen had to have a "dream" with EK Master
          > Prajapati (the EK Master in charge of animals).
          > Thus, Fifi was healed by Prajapati it was
          > a "Miracle!" Apparently Fifi had a "change
          > in consciousness." LOL! Maybe H.I.s should
          > call upon Prajapati instead of the Mahanta
          > (Klemp) to heal them as well!
          >
          > I'm still not sure why Jen didn't have
          > a dream with her mother. After all, her
          > mother's death is what caused her suffering
          > and depression "years earlier!" Klemp,
          > conveniently, skips over addressing this
          > very important detail. So, why didn't Jen
          > have a dream experience, with her mother,
          > (or the Mahanta) that would resolve her
          > depression? What happened to having
          > an "inner" healing versus an outer one?
          >
          > HK: "So it is a reminder of how states
          > of consciousness do vary. Let others
          > know about the ECK, and the Mahanta
          > will do the rest, as he sees fit, step-by-step."
          > [end]
          >
          > ME: That "as he sees fit" sounds like
          > a disclaimer and a Catch-22! And,
          > "states of consciousness do vary"
          > sounds like another clever escape
          > clause.
          >
          > Thus, when things Don't Work Out for
          > the chela it's because the Mahanta has
          > judged him/her to be at fault. The chela
          > is, always, to blame. The Teflon Mahanta,
          > thus, can only do good and only takes
          > credit for the "good" things that happen!
          > Unless, it's a "spiritual test" for the H.I.,
          > however, even "hard" tests lead to higher
          > consciousness so it's All Good... again!
          >
          > BTW- Why does a chela need the ECK
          > "and the Mahanta" to remedy a situation?
          > Why not just call upon the Holy Spirit?
          > That's what I do at times! Oh, I know why
          > ECK H.I.s don't! It's the Codependency
          > of Needing Klemp! The ECK is Free,
          > whereas, the Mahanta (Klemp) charges
          > money for an annual EK membership!
          >
          > Hey, I just realized that "found" money
          > could be used for that annual EK Membership
          > since it would be "donated" to a "non-profit"
          > org. and would support the Mahanta's
          > (God's) Mission around the world! Or,
          > one could put the found money in a slot
          > machine and take a chance on winning
          > even more money to donate to ECKankar!
          > Actually, EK H.I.s have done this!
          >
          >
          > Prometheus
          > p.s. Klemp uses 4 BUTS and continues
          > to contradict his own teachings found
          > in another H.I. Letter. Thus, this H.I.
          > Letter (teaching), too, must be just as
          > insignificant and irrelevant.
          >
        • whitemoby22
          This story about picking up money is troubling. I would love to read that article. I have access to the regular newsletter, but not to the H.I. Letter. Are
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 10, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            This story about picking up money is troubling. I would love to read that article. I have access to the regular newsletter, but not to the H.I. Letter. Are the H.I. Letters sent only to HIs?

            Thanks, Postekcon





            In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
            >
            > Picking Up Money from the Street 'Will Make You Sick'
            >
            > Excerpt, H.I. Letter 09/2009
            > >>
            > One day, he [HK follower] was sick. He felt an urge to ask God the
            > reason for his sickness, his fever.
            > In a dream, he was out walking, when he came upon some money. He bent
            > down and picked it up. Just then, a madman [aka 'inner master'] ran
            > towards him shouting, "Don't you know that it is the money you pick up
            > that makes you sick? Drop it, or you'll be sick again!"
            > The dreamer dropped the money. When he remembered the dream later, it
            > became very clear that picking up another's property was the cause of
            > his recurrent illnesses. He stopped the practice.
            > >>
            >
            > In the above story HK explains how when an individual picks up an object
            > that was once owned or handled by another person, it is 'bad karma'!
            >
            > Usually 'bad karma' is when a spiritual principle has been broken
            > [either knowingly or unknowingly].
            >
            > The followers of HK have a major dilemma here, as HK fails to clarify
            > what spiritual law they've violated should they pick up an object from
            > the street. And since HK gives them no parameters whatsoever, paranoia
            > and confusion will follow. So in trying to apply this 'new' ruling, will
            > it also mean it is 'bad karma' for them to:
            >
            > - pick a wild flower or pebble from the beach [these will always be
            > owned by someone, somewhere]
            > - touch any object that was once owned or used by another person
            > - breathe-in even, lest some of this air might contain expelled air from
            > another!
            > - and what if the object was gathered by an animal [they're recognized
            > as soul too]
            > - and is the karmic debt to the last handler of the property, or last
            > owner/s?
            > - and how do they teach their children now about 'karma' etc?
            >
            > N.B.
            > In any case, money itself is never owned, it is only a currency [method
            > of barter], a promissory 'note'.
            > Written upon the US dollar bill are these words:
            > THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE
            > [perhaps the founding fathers intended to include karmic debt as well!
            > LOL]
            >
            > It isn't necessary to elaborate any further on the paranoia and lack of
            > understanding of the laws of the universe and laws of the land, HK
            > demonstrates in his writings.
            >
            > CAUSE AND EFFECT
            > Newton's Law of Motion: 'To every action there is an equal and opposite
            > reaction'. Commonly known as 'cause and effect', this principle seems to
            > give credibility to the concept of 'karma'. However, in some circles of
            > science [atomic], Newton's law of motion is shown to be false.
            >
            > In the world of the 'atom', it's been scientifically proven that the
            > packets or particles of energy which comprise the atom, DO NOT follow
            > the principle of cause and effect, but instead follow randomity. So at
            > atomic level, the principle of 'to every action there is an equal and
            > opposite reaction' is incorrect.
            >
            > Consequently, this makes the case for karma wrong, for 'cause and
            > effect' is not the way the universe works at all at its creative core or
            > spiritual principle.
            >
            > So why then at present, is HK so hung-up on karma, rather than on
            > fostering true creativity and randomity in his followers? It is because
            > instilling fear is so effective as a control mechanism tool. The 'money'
            > story [above] is a typical example of how HK uses auto-suggestion to
            > consolidate habits of introversion in his followers. He instills in them
            > fear so they become paralysed, unable even to reach out and pick up a
            > button off the floor! This pattern of behaviour can only lead to mental
            > illness and abberations of 'withdrawal' - downward spiral.
            > [Remind you of anyone?]
            >
            > PS.
            > To return to the original story as told by HK, it was a madman who
            > explained to the HK follower, how picking up coins from the street was
            > making him sick!
            > Yes, truly a 'madman'...
            > Postekcon
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello All,
            > >
            > > These are excerpts only. Klemp's
            > > entire article makes me question
            > > his mental acuity. Really! Something
            > > is wrong... it has to be. This is just too
            > > basic and simple-minded for chelas
            > > let alone H.I.s! [My brackets and caps]
            > >
            > > HK: "People's states of consciousness
            > > rise by small steps, over many lifetimes.
            > > For example, any of us would likely be
            > > uncomfortable IF a giant's hand should
            > > pick us up and unceremoniously plop
            > > us down in a London marketplace way
            > > back in Shakespeare's time."
            > >
            > > ME: Next, Klemp tells us all about how
            > > bad the living conditions were back then
            > > versus now. However, what's this about
            > > "a giant's hand?" Is this "giant" the sky
            > > God or the Mahanta (Klemp)? Do H.I.s
            > > really need the image of a "giant's hand"
            > > to pick them up and take them to London,
            > > and back in time? Is this "giant" another
            > > Unknown EK Master?
            > >
            > > HK: "Their level of consciousness guides
            > > their behavior. [1] BUT they are learning
            > > too, step by step, drawing even closer to
            > > ECK. Why am I giving the ABCs of spiritual
            > > unfoldment? So you Do Not forget."
            > >
            > > ME: Maybe it's Klemp who is having
            > > the memory problems! ABCs? That's
            > > really too basic for those (H.I.s) with
            > > a superior/normal consciousness!
            > > Isn't it?
            > >
            > > HK: "Let them recall for you your own
            > > early steps toward the ECK teachings,
            > > this time around. You need to remember
            > > the `baby` you in order to be a clear channel
            > > for the Mahanta. Small, itty-bitty steps do
            > > lead to love divine."
            > >
            > > ME: "This time around" I doubt that
            > > "the baby you" remembers or did all
            > > that much that matters! Do H.I.s need
            > > to be spoon fed too? I don't know what
            > > these H.I.s think, but it seems that Klemp
            > > is talking down, way down, to them!
            > > Why does Klemp want H.I.s to digress
            > > in consciousness to earlier times? Or,
            > > is he saying that it takes "itty-bitty"
            > > baby "steps" to get to that next initiation
            > > and that's why it's taking so long...
            > > the same old excuse! Darwin handed
            > > out plenty of Higher Initiations and
            > > Klemp got his share and more!
            > >
            > > Why doesn't Klemp ever mention having
            > > empathy in order to be a `clear channel?'
            > > [Isn't being 'clear' a Scientology term?]
            > > Anyway, Klemp can't relate to having
            > > empathy. And, perhaps, many of these
            > > long-time H.I.s have surpassed him in
            > > consciousness! Thus, this message is
            > > meant to control them (HK needs the
            > > vahanas) and he's trying to smooth
            > > out their long-standing frustrations,
            > > with the RESA hierarchy, as well as,
            > > with sitting on those 7th initiations.
            > > HK needs to remind them of their place
            > > as subordinates and servants within
            > > the EK hierarchy. They will, forever,
            > > be babies needing his care. I'll bet
            > > Joan will be the one changing the
            > > diapers!
            > >
            > > Anyway, next, Klemp has a standard
            > > Nigerian story. This one is about finding
            > > money on the ground and NOT picking
            > > it up because IF you do you can get sick
            > > due to Karmic effects. This, of course,
            > > doesn't and never did make sense to
            > > me, but I used to follow this nutty EK
            > > practice too! Silly me! Now, I see "found"
            > > money as a positive blessing. And,
            > > I don't get sick after picking it up and
            > > keeping it... never did before EK and
            > > don't now!
            > >
            > > In retrospect, it's a very superstitious
            > > and negative practice (Black Magic)
            > > to believe that found money is karmically
            > > bad. However, this superstitious and
            > > ritualistic belief/mindset probably sounds
            > > believable with most New Age ECKists
            > > anywhere, and not just in Nigeria!
            > > What spiritual Law does picking up
            > > lost money violate? Klemp is never
            > > too specific.
            > >
            > > http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/nigeria/nigeria_religion.html
            > >
            > > HK: "[2] BUT a fellow passenger, who
            > > had been a listener until then, told a story.
            > > He admitted to being a lucky person
            > > who often found money in the street..."
            > >
            > > ME: Next, Klemp has a story about
            > > "Jen" and her depression due to her
            > > mother's death and how the Mahanta
            > > "gave" her two dogs, and then healed
            > > one of them via a miracle!
            > >
            > > HK: "`Jen' had suffered the unexpected
            > > loss of her mother Several Years Earlier
            > > and had then fallen into a deep state of
            > > depression. [3] BUT the Mahanta brought
            > > two Boston terriers, `Lady' and `Fifi,'
            > > into her life. They lifted Jen's depression."
            > >
            > > ME: Why did Klemp, the Mahanta, wait
            > > so long and then take credit? Why does
            > > Klemp take credit for only "good things"
            > > in the lives of his Chelas? Why didn't
            > > Klemp (the Mahanta) heal Jen's mother?
            > > Or, better yet, why didn't the Mahanta
            > > protect/heal Jen from having depression?
            > >
            > > And, couldn't HK comfort Jen with his
            > > words of wisdom or via dreams with
            > > her mother, etc.? See, this doesn't
            > > make sense that the "Inner Master"
            > > takes credit for giving her distractions
            > > or substitutes for her mother (two dogs)
            > > rather than resolving the issue of death
            > > with Jen and her recently departed mother.
            > > When non-ECKists buy two dogs, or have
            > > them given to them, after the death of
            > > a mother and/or father is the Mahanta/
            > > God (Klemp) doing this as well? No!
            > >
            > > HK: "Every day when Jen returned from
            > > work, the dogs would greet her at the
            > > door: Fifi would bounce; Lady, wiggle.
            > > That all changed one day. Fifi started
            > > for the door as usual [4] BUT suddenly
            > > let out a horrifying howl of pain. Alarmed,
            > > Jen took her to a vet."
            > >
            > > ME: Maybe Fifi found, and ate, some money
            > > while outside to potty! I wonder why she
            > > (this dog) had such Bad Karma? Maybe
            > > it was a "spiritual test" for Fifi? Nope! The
            > > dog had to go through this pain because
            > > Jen had to have a "dream" with EK Master
            > > Prajapati (the EK Master in charge of animals).
            > > Thus, Fifi was healed by Prajapati it was
            > > a "Miracle!" Apparently Fifi had a "change
            > > in consciousness." LOL! Maybe H.I.s should
            > > call upon Prajapati instead of the Mahanta
            > > (Klemp) to heal them as well!
            > >
            > > I'm still not sure why Jen didn't have
            > > a dream with her mother. After all, her
            > > mother's death is what caused her suffering
            > > and depression "years earlier!" Klemp,
            > > conveniently, skips over addressing this
            > > very important detail. So, why didn't Jen
            > > have a dream experience, with her mother,
            > > (or the Mahanta) that would resolve her
            > > depression? What happened to having
            > > an "inner" healing versus an outer one?
            > >
            > > HK: "So it is a reminder of how states
            > > of consciousness do vary. Let others
            > > know about the ECK, and the Mahanta
            > > will do the rest, as he sees fit, step-by-step."
            > > [end]
            > >
            > > ME: That "as he sees fit" sounds like
            > > a disclaimer and a Catch-22! And,
            > > "states of consciousness do vary"
            > > sounds like another clever escape
            > > clause.
            > >
            > > Thus, when things Don't Work Out for
            > > the chela it's because the Mahanta has
            > > judged him/her to be at fault. The chela
            > > is, always, to blame. The Teflon Mahanta,
            > > thus, can only do good and only takes
            > > credit for the "good" things that happen!
            > > Unless, it's a "spiritual test" for the H.I.,
            > > however, even "hard" tests lead to higher
            > > consciousness so it's All Good... again!
            > >
            > > BTW- Why does a chela need the ECK
            > > "and the Mahanta" to remedy a situation?
            > > Why not just call upon the Holy Spirit?
            > > That's what I do at times! Oh, I know why
            > > ECK H.I.s don't! It's the Codependency
            > > of Needing Klemp! The ECK is Free,
            > > whereas, the Mahanta (Klemp) charges
            > > money for an annual EK membership!
            > >
            > > Hey, I just realized that "found" money
            > > could be used for that annual EK Membership
            > > since it would be "donated" to a "non-profit"
            > > org. and would support the Mahanta's
            > > (God's) Mission around the world! Or,
            > > one could put the found money in a slot
            > > machine and take a chance on winning
            > > even more money to donate to ECKankar!
            > > Actually, EK H.I.s have done this!
            > >
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > > p.s. Klemp uses 4 BUTS and continues
            > > to contradict his own teachings found
            > > in another H.I. Letter. Thus, this H.I.
            > > Letter (teaching), too, must be just as
            > > insignificant and irrelevant.
            > >
            >
          • postekcon
            Hi Whitemoby22, Prometheus has already commented on most of the article [see below]. I wanted to focus on the short money story, within the article, because
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 10, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Whitemoby22,
              Prometheus has already commented on most of the article [see below].

              I wanted to focus on the short 'money' story, within the article, because of the serious implications it can have on the subconscious of unwitting readers. The story is also a good demonstration of the high level of stupidity contained in much of HK's writings, and is similar in effect to how many politicians operate, where a policy is not thought through!

              The HI letter is sent quarterly to HIs.
              Postekcon


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "whitemoby22" <whitemoby22@...> wrote:
              >
              > This story about picking up money is troubling. I would love to read that article. I have access to the regular newsletter, but not to the H.I. Letter. Are the H.I. Letters sent only to HIs?
              >
              > Thanks, Postekcon
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Picking Up Money from the Street 'Will Make You Sick'
              > >
              > > Excerpt, H.I. Letter 09/2009
              > > >>
              > > One day, he [HK follower] was sick. He felt an urge to ask God the
              > > reason for his sickness, his fever.
              > > In a dream, he was out walking, when he came upon some money. He bent
              > > down and picked it up. Just then, a madman [aka 'inner master'] ran
              > > towards him shouting, "Don't you know that it is the money you pick up
              > > that makes you sick? Drop it, or you'll be sick again!"
              > > The dreamer dropped the money. When he remembered the dream later, it
              > > became very clear that picking up another's property was the cause of
              > > his recurrent illnesses. He stopped the practice.
              > > >>
              > >
              > > In the above story HK explains how when an individual picks up an object
              > > that was once owned or handled by another person, it is 'bad karma'!
              > >
              > > Usually 'bad karma' is when a spiritual principle has been broken
              > > [either knowingly or unknowingly].
              > >
              > > The followers of HK have a major dilemma here, as HK fails to clarify
              > > what spiritual law they've violated should they pick up an object from
              > > the street. And since HK gives them no parameters whatsoever, paranoia
              > > and confusion will follow. So in trying to apply this 'new' ruling, will
              > > it also mean it is 'bad karma' for them to:
              > >
              > > - pick a wild flower or pebble from the beach [these will always be
              > > owned by someone, somewhere]
              > > - touch any object that was once owned or used by another person
              > > - breathe-in even, lest some of this air might contain expelled air from
              > > another!
              > > - and what if the object was gathered by an animal [they're recognized
              > > as soul too]
              > > - and is the karmic debt to the last handler of the property, or last
              > > owner/s?
              > > - and how do they teach their children now about 'karma' etc?
              > >
              > > N.B.
              > > In any case, money itself is never owned, it is only a currency [method
              > > of barter], a promissory 'note'.
              > > Written upon the US dollar bill are these words:
              > > THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE
              > > [perhaps the founding fathers intended to include karmic debt as well!
              > > LOL]
              > >
              > > It isn't necessary to elaborate any further on the paranoia and lack of
              > > understanding of the laws of the universe and laws of the land, HK
              > > demonstrates in his writings.
              > >
              > > CAUSE AND EFFECT
              > > Newton's Law of Motion: 'To every action there is an equal and opposite
              > > reaction'. Commonly known as 'cause and effect', this principle seems to
              > > give credibility to the concept of 'karma'. However, in some circles of
              > > science [atomic], Newton's law of motion is shown to be false.
              > >
              > > In the world of the 'atom', it's been scientifically proven that the
              > > packets or particles of energy which comprise the atom, DO NOT follow
              > > the principle of cause and effect, but instead follow randomity. So at
              > > atomic level, the principle of 'to every action there is an equal and
              > > opposite reaction' is incorrect.
              > >
              > > Consequently, this makes the case for karma wrong, for 'cause and
              > > effect' is not the way the universe works at all at its creative core or
              > > spiritual principle.
              > >
              > > So why then at present, is HK so hung-up on karma, rather than on
              > > fostering true creativity and randomity in his followers? It is because
              > > instilling fear is so effective as a control mechanism tool. The 'money'
              > > story [above] is a typical example of how HK uses auto-suggestion to
              > > consolidate habits of introversion in his followers. He instills in them
              > > fear so they become paralysed, unable even to reach out and pick up a
              > > button off the floor! This pattern of behaviour can only lead to mental
              > > illness and abberations of 'withdrawal' - downward spiral.
              > > [Remind you of anyone?]
              > >
              > > PS.
              > > To return to the original story as told by HK, it was a madman who
              > > explained to the HK follower, how picking up coins from the street was
              > > making him sick!
              > > Yes, truly a 'madman'...
              > > Postekcon
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello All,
              > > >
              > > > These are excerpts only. Klemp's
              > > > entire article makes me question
              > > > his mental acuity. Really! Something
              > > > is wrong... it has to be. This is just too
              > > > basic and simple-minded for chelas
              > > > let alone H.I.s! [My brackets and caps]
              > > >
              > > > HK: "People's states of consciousness
              > > > rise by small steps, over many lifetimes.
              > > > For example, any of us would likely be
              > > > uncomfortable IF a giant's hand should
              > > > pick us up and unceremoniously plop
              > > > us down in a London marketplace way
              > > > back in Shakespeare's time."
              > > >
              > > > ME: Next, Klemp tells us all about how
              > > > bad the living conditions were back then
              > > > versus now. However, what's this about
              > > > "a giant's hand?" Is this "giant" the sky
              > > > God or the Mahanta (Klemp)? Do H.I.s
              > > > really need the image of a "giant's hand"
              > > > to pick them up and take them to London,
              > > > and back in time? Is this "giant" another
              > > > Unknown EK Master?
              > > >
              > > > HK: "Their level of consciousness guides
              > > > their behavior. [1] BUT they are learning
              > > > too, step by step, drawing even closer to
              > > > ECK. Why am I giving the ABCs of spiritual
              > > > unfoldment? So you Do Not forget."
              > > >
              > > > ME: Maybe it's Klemp who is having
              > > > the memory problems! ABCs? That's
              > > > really too basic for those (H.I.s) with
              > > > a superior/normal consciousness!
              > > > Isn't it?
              > > >
              > > > HK: "Let them recall for you your own
              > > > early steps toward the ECK teachings,
              > > > this time around. You need to remember
              > > > the `baby` you in order to be a clear channel
              > > > for the Mahanta. Small, itty-bitty steps do
              > > > lead to love divine."
              > > >
              > > > ME: "This time around" I doubt that
              > > > "the baby you" remembers or did all
              > > > that much that matters! Do H.I.s need
              > > > to be spoon fed too? I don't know what
              > > > these H.I.s think, but it seems that Klemp
              > > > is talking down, way down, to them!
              > > > Why does Klemp want H.I.s to digress
              > > > in consciousness to earlier times? Or,
              > > > is he saying that it takes "itty-bitty"
              > > > baby "steps" to get to that next initiation
              > > > and that's why it's taking so long...
              > > > the same old excuse! Darwin handed
              > > > out plenty of Higher Initiations and
              > > > Klemp got his share and more!
              > > >
              > > > Why doesn't Klemp ever mention having
              > > > empathy in order to be a `clear channel?'
              > > > [Isn't being 'clear' a Scientology term?]
              > > > Anyway, Klemp can't relate to having
              > > > empathy. And, perhaps, many of these
              > > > long-time H.I.s have surpassed him in
              > > > consciousness! Thus, this message is
              > > > meant to control them (HK needs the
              > > > vahanas) and he's trying to smooth
              > > > out their long-standing frustrations,
              > > > with the RESA hierarchy, as well as,
              > > > with sitting on those 7th initiations.
              > > > HK needs to remind them of their place
              > > > as subordinates and servants within
              > > > the EK hierarchy. They will, forever,
              > > > be babies needing his care. I'll bet
              > > > Joan will be the one changing the
              > > > diapers!
              > > >
              > > > Anyway, next, Klemp has a standard
              > > > Nigerian story. This one is about finding
              > > > money on the ground and NOT picking
              > > > it up because IF you do you can get sick
              > > > due to Karmic effects. This, of course,
              > > > doesn't and never did make sense to
              > > > me, but I used to follow this nutty EK
              > > > practice too! Silly me! Now, I see "found"
              > > > money as a positive blessing. And,
              > > > I don't get sick after picking it up and
              > > > keeping it... never did before EK and
              > > > don't now!
              > > >
              > > > In retrospect, it's a very superstitious
              > > > and negative practice (Black Magic)
              > > > to believe that found money is karmically
              > > > bad. However, this superstitious and
              > > > ritualistic belief/mindset probably sounds
              > > > believable with most New Age ECKists
              > > > anywhere, and not just in Nigeria!
              > > > What spiritual Law does picking up
              > > > lost money violate? Klemp is never
              > > > too specific.
              > > >
              > > > http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/nigeria/nigeria_religion.html
              > > >
              > > > HK: "[2] BUT a fellow passenger, who
              > > > had been a listener until then, told a story.
              > > > He admitted to being a lucky person
              > > > who often found money in the street..."
              > > >
              > > > ME: Next, Klemp has a story about
              > > > "Jen" and her depression due to her
              > > > mother's death and how the Mahanta
              > > > "gave" her two dogs, and then healed
              > > > one of them via a miracle!
              > > >
              > > > HK: "`Jen' had suffered the unexpected
              > > > loss of her mother Several Years Earlier
              > > > and had then fallen into a deep state of
              > > > depression. [3] BUT the Mahanta brought
              > > > two Boston terriers, `Lady' and `Fifi,'
              > > > into her life. They lifted Jen's depression."
              > > >
              > > > ME: Why did Klemp, the Mahanta, wait
              > > > so long and then take credit? Why does
              > > > Klemp take credit for only "good things"
              > > > in the lives of his Chelas? Why didn't
              > > > Klemp (the Mahanta) heal Jen's mother?
              > > > Or, better yet, why didn't the Mahanta
              > > > protect/heal Jen from having depression?
              > > >
              > > > And, couldn't HK comfort Jen with his
              > > > words of wisdom or via dreams with
              > > > her mother, etc.? See, this doesn't
              > > > make sense that the "Inner Master"
              > > > takes credit for giving her distractions
              > > > or substitutes for her mother (two dogs)
              > > > rather than resolving the issue of death
              > > > with Jen and her recently departed mother.
              > > > When non-ECKists buy two dogs, or have
              > > > them given to them, after the death of
              > > > a mother and/or father is the Mahanta/
              > > > God (Klemp) doing this as well? No!
              > > >
              > > > HK: "Every day when Jen returned from
              > > > work, the dogs would greet her at the
              > > > door: Fifi would bounce; Lady, wiggle.
              > > > That all changed one day. Fifi started
              > > > for the door as usual [4] BUT suddenly
              > > > let out a horrifying howl of pain. Alarmed,
              > > > Jen took her to a vet."
              > > >
              > > > ME: Maybe Fifi found, and ate, some money
              > > > while outside to potty! I wonder why she
              > > > (this dog) had such Bad Karma? Maybe
              > > > it was a "spiritual test" for Fifi? Nope! The
              > > > dog had to go through this pain because
              > > > Jen had to have a "dream" with EK Master
              > > > Prajapati (the EK Master in charge of animals).
              > > > Thus, Fifi was healed by Prajapati it was
              > > > a "Miracle!" Apparently Fifi had a "change
              > > > in consciousness." LOL! Maybe H.I.s should
              > > > call upon Prajapati instead of the Mahanta
              > > > (Klemp) to heal them as well!
              > > >
              > > > I'm still not sure why Jen didn't have
              > > > a dream with her mother. After all, her
              > > > mother's death is what caused her suffering
              > > > and depression "years earlier!" Klemp,
              > > > conveniently, skips over addressing this
              > > > very important detail. So, why didn't Jen
              > > > have a dream experience, with her mother,
              > > > (or the Mahanta) that would resolve her
              > > > depression? What happened to having
              > > > an "inner" healing versus an outer one?
              > > >
              > > > HK: "So it is a reminder of how states
              > > > of consciousness do vary. Let others
              > > > know about the ECK, and the Mahanta
              > > > will do the rest, as he sees fit, step-by-step."
              > > > [end]
              > > >
              > > > ME: That "as he sees fit" sounds like
              > > > a disclaimer and a Catch-22! And,
              > > > "states of consciousness do vary"
              > > > sounds like another clever escape
              > > > clause.
              > > >
              > > > Thus, when things Don't Work Out for
              > > > the chela it's because the Mahanta has
              > > > judged him/her to be at fault. The chela
              > > > is, always, to blame. The Teflon Mahanta,
              > > > thus, can only do good and only takes
              > > > credit for the "good" things that happen!
              > > > Unless, it's a "spiritual test" for the H.I.,
              > > > however, even "hard" tests lead to higher
              > > > consciousness so it's All Good... again!
              > > >
              > > > BTW- Why does a chela need the ECK
              > > > "and the Mahanta" to remedy a situation?
              > > > Why not just call upon the Holy Spirit?
              > > > That's what I do at times! Oh, I know why
              > > > ECK H.I.s don't! It's the Codependency
              > > > of Needing Klemp! The ECK is Free,
              > > > whereas, the Mahanta (Klemp) charges
              > > > money for an annual EK membership!
              > > >
              > > > Hey, I just realized that "found" money
              > > > could be used for that annual EK Membership
              > > > since it would be "donated" to a "non-profit"
              > > > org. and would support the Mahanta's
              > > > (God's) Mission around the world! Or,
              > > > one could put the found money in a slot
              > > > machine and take a chance on winning
              > > > even more money to donate to ECKankar!
              > > > Actually, EK H.I.s have done this!
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > > p.s. Klemp uses 4 BUTS and continues
              > > > to contradict his own teachings found
              > > > in another H.I. Letter. Thus, this H.I.
              > > > Letter (teaching), too, must be just as
              > > > insignificant and irrelevant.
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello postekcon and All, Thanks for the post and giving more of this nutty story of Not picking up someone else s money. Actually, if the previous owner is
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 10, 2009
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                Hello postekcon and All,
                Thanks for the post and
                giving more of this nutty
                story of Not picking up
                "someone else's" money.

                Actually, if the previous
                owner is nowhere to be
                found it's, now, ownerless.

                Besides, what amounts are
                we usually talking about...
                $20 dollars or less! Sometimes
                it's just a dime or a quarter.

                Generally, it's a penny or
                one cent! It's hard to believe
                that Eckists are being trained
                (brainwashed) Not to pickup
                a near worthless penny!

                Then again, the real purpose
                of this story is to disguise this
                mind control exercise or technique
                so that Eckists will let their
                guard down and allow this
                thought/concept into their minds.
                This is one more subtle mind
                control technique that Klemp
                is using on his followers.

                When one looks at this story
                and the policy of Not picking
                up found/lost money it doesn't
                make sense. When Eckists start
                to toss out common sense, logic,
                and critical thinking their minds
                become more stuck in dogmatic
                cult think. They accept anything
                on face value and without question.
                Thus, they have become true believers
                (aka mushrooms).

                Prometheus

                postekcon wrote:

                Picking Up Money from the
                Street 'Will Make You Sick'

                Excerpt, H.I. Letter 09/2009

                One day, he [HK follower] was sick.
                He felt an urge to ask God the
                reason for his sickness, his fever.
                In a dream, he was out walking,
                when he came upon some money.
                He bent down and picked it up.
                Just then, a madman [aka 'inner master']
                ran towards him shouting, "Don't
                you know that it is the money you
                pick up that makes you sick? Drop
                it, or you'll be sick again!"

                The dreamer dropped the money.

                When he remembered the dream later,
                it became very clear that picking up
                another's property was the cause of
                his recurrent illnesses. He stopped the
                practice.


                In the above story HK explains how
                when an individual picks up an object
                that was once owned or handled by
                another person, it is 'bad karma'!

                Usually 'bad karma' is when a spiritual
                principle has been broken [either
                knowingly or unknowingly].

                The followers of HK have a major
                dilemma here, as HK fails to clarify
                what spiritual law they've violated
                should they pick up an object from
                the street. And since HK gives them
                no parameters whatsoever, paranoia
                and confusion will follow. So in trying
                to apply this 'new' ruling, will it also
                mean it is 'bad karma' for them to:

                - pick a wild flower or pebble from
                the beach [these will always be owned
                by someone, somewhere]

                - touch any object that was once
                owned or used by another person

                - breathe-in even, lest some of this
                air might contain expelled air from
                another!

                - and what if the object was gathered
                by an animal [they're recognized as soul too]

                - and is the karmic debt to the last handler
                of the property, or last owner/s?

                - and how do they teach their children
                now about 'karma' etc?

                N.B.
                In any case, money itself is never owned,
                it is only a currency [method of barter],
                a promissory 'note'. Written upon the US
                dollar bill are these words: THIS NOTE IS
                LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC
                AND PRIVATE [perhaps the founding fathers
                intended to include karmic debt as well!
                LOL]

                It isn't necessary to elaborate any further
                on the paranoia and lack of understanding
                of the laws of the universe and laws of the
                land, HK demonstrates in his writings.

                CAUSE AND EFFECT
                Newton's Law of Motion: 'To every action
                there is an equal and opposite reaction'.
                Commonly known as 'cause and effect',
                this principle seems to give credibility to
                the concept of 'karma'. However, in some
                circles of science [atomic], Newton's law
                of motion is shown to be false.

                In the world of the 'atom', it's been
                scientifically proven that the packets
                or particles of energy which comprise
                the atom, DO NOT follow the principle
                of cause and effect, but instead follow
                randomity. So at atomic level, the principle
                of 'to every action there is an equal and
                opposite reaction' is incorrect.

                Consequently, this makes the case for
                karma wrong, for 'cause and effect' is
                not the way the universe works at all
                at its creative core or spiritual principle.

                So why then at present, is HK so hung-up
                on karma, rather than on fostering true
                creativity and randomity in his followers?
                It is because instilling fear is so effective
                as a control mechanism tool. The 'money'
                story [above] is a typical example of how
                HK uses auto-suggestion to consolidate
                habits of introversion in his followers.
                He instills in them fear so they become
                paralysed, unable even to reach out and
                pick up a button off the floor! This pattern
                of behaviour can only lead to mental
                illness and abberations of 'withdrawal' -
                downward spiral. [Remind you of anyone?]

                PS.
                To return to the original story as told by HK,
                it was a madman who explained to the HK
                follower, how picking up coins from the street
                was making him sick! Yes, truly a 'madman'...

                Postekcon



                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello All,
                >
                > These are excerpts only. Klemp's
                > entire article makes me question
                > his mental acuity. Really! Something
                > is wrong... it has to be. This is just too
                > basic and simple-minded for chelas
                > let alone H.I.s! [My brackets and caps]
                >
                > HK: "People's states of consciousness
                > rise by small steps, over many lifetimes.
                > For example, any of us would likely be
                > uncomfortable IF a giant's hand should
                > pick us up and unceremoniously plop
                > us down in a London marketplace way
                > back in Shakespeare's time."
                >
                > ME: Next, Klemp tells us all about how
                > bad the living conditions were back then
                > versus now. However, what's this about
                > "a giant's hand?" Is this "giant" the sky
                > God or the Mahanta (Klemp)? Do H.I.s
                > really need the image of a "giant's hand"
                > to pick them up and take them to London,
                > and back in time? Is this "giant" another
                > Unknown EK Master?
                >
                > HK: "Their level of consciousness guides
                > their behavior. [1] BUT they are learning
                > too, step by step, drawing even closer to
                > ECK. Why am I giving the ABCs of spiritual
                > unfoldment? So you Do Not forget."
                >
                > ME: Maybe it's Klemp who is having
                > the memory problems! ABCs? That's
                > really too basic for those (H.I.s) with
                > a superior/normal consciousness!
                > Isn't it?
                >
                > HK: "Let them recall for you your own
                > early steps toward the ECK teachings,
                > this time around. You need to remember
                > the `baby` you in order to be a clear channel
                > for the Mahanta. Small, itty-bitty steps do
                > lead to love divine."
                >
                > ME: "This time around" I doubt that
                > "the baby you" remembers or did all
                > that much that matters! Do H.I.s need
                > to be spoon fed too? I don't know what
                > these H.I.s think, but it seems that Klemp
                > is talking down, way down, to them!
                > Why does Klemp want H.I.s to digress
                > in consciousness to earlier times? Or,
                > is he saying that it takes "itty-bitty"
                > baby "steps" to get to that next initiation
                > and that's why it's taking so long...
                > the same old excuse! Darwin handed
                > out plenty of Higher Initiations and
                > Klemp got his share and more!
                >
                > Why doesn't Klemp ever mention having
                > empathy in order to be a `clear channel?'
                > [Isn't being 'clear' a Scientology term?]
                > Anyway, Klemp can't relate to having
                > empathy. And, perhaps, many of these
                > long-time H.I.s have surpassed him in
                > consciousness! Thus, this message is
                > meant to control them (HK needs the
                > vahanas) and he's trying to smooth
                > out their long-standing frustrations,
                > with the RESA hierarchy, as well as,
                > with sitting on those 7th initiations.
                > HK needs to remind them of their place
                > as subordinates and servants within
                > the EK hierarchy. They will, forever,
                > be babies needing his care. I'll bet
                > Joan will be the one changing the
                > diapers!
                >
                > Anyway, next, Klemp has a standard
                > Nigerian story. This one is about finding
                > money on the ground and NOT picking
                > it up because IF you do you can get sick
                > due to Karmic effects. This, of course,
                > doesn't and never did make sense to
                > me, but I used to follow this nutty EK
                > practice too! Silly me! Now, I see "found"
                > money as a positive blessing. And,
                > I don't get sick after picking it up and
                > keeping it... never did before EK and
                > don't now!
                >
                > In retrospect, it's a very superstitious
                > and negative practice (Black Magic)
                > to believe that found money is karmically
                > bad. However, this superstitious and
                > ritualistic belief/mindset probably sounds
                > believable with most New Age ECKists
                > anywhere, and not just in Nigeria!
                > What spiritual Law does picking up
                > lost money violate? Klemp is never
                > too specific.
                >
                http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/nigeria/nigeria_religion.html
                >
                > HK: "[2] BUT a fellow passenger, who
                > had been a listener until then, told a story.
                > He admitted to being a lucky person
                > who often found money in the street..."
                >
                > ME: Next, Klemp has a story about
                > "Jen" and her depression due to her
                > mother's death and how the Mahanta
                > "gave" her two dogs, and then healed
                > one of them via a miracle!
                >
                > HK: "`Jen' had suffered the unexpected
                > loss of her mother Several Years Earlier
                > and had then fallen into a deep state of
                > depression. [3] BUT the Mahanta brought
                > two Boston terriers, `Lady' and `Fifi,'
                > into her life. They lifted Jen's depression."
                >
                > ME: Why did Klemp, the Mahanta, wait
                > so long and then take credit? Why does
                > Klemp take credit for only "good things"
                > in the lives of his Chelas? Why didn't
                > Klemp (the Mahanta) heal Jen's mother?
                > Or, better yet, why didn't the Mahanta
                > protect/heal Jen from having depression?
                >
                > And, couldn't HK comfort Jen with his
                > words of wisdom or via dreams with
                > her mother, etc.? See, this doesn't
                > make sense that the "Inner Master"
                > takes credit for giving her distractions
                > or substitutes for her mother (two dogs)
                > rather than resolving the issue of death
                > with Jen and her recently departed mother.
                > When non-ECKists buy two dogs, or have
                > them given to them, after the death of
                > a mother and/or father is the Mahanta/
                > God (Klemp) doing this as well? No!
                >
                > HK: "Every day when Jen returned from
                > work, the dogs would greet her at the
                > door: Fifi would bounce; Lady, wiggle.
                > That all changed one day. Fifi started
                > for the door as usual [4] BUT suddenly
                > let out a horrifying howl of pain. Alarmed,
                > Jen took her to a vet."
                >
                > ME: Maybe Fifi found, and ate, some money
                > while outside to potty! I wonder why she
                > (this dog) had such Bad Karma? Maybe
                > it was a "spiritual test" for Fifi? Nope! The
                > dog had to go through this pain because
                > Jen had to have a "dream" with EK Master
                > Prajapati (the EK Master in charge of animals).
                > Thus, Fifi was healed by Prajapati it was
                > a "Miracle!" Apparently Fifi had a "change
                > in consciousness." LOL! Maybe H.I.s should
                > call upon Prajapati instead of the Mahanta
                > (Klemp) to heal them as well!
                >
                > I'm still not sure why Jen didn't have
                > a dream with her mother. After all, her
                > mother's death is what caused her suffering
                > and depression "years earlier!" Klemp,
                > conveniently, skips over addressing this
                > very important detail. So, why didn't Jen
                > have a dream experience, with her mother,
                > (or the Mahanta) that would resolve her
                > depression? What happened to having
                > an "inner" healing versus an outer one?
                >
                > HK: "So it is a reminder of how states
                > of consciousness do vary. Let others
                > know about the ECK, and the Mahanta
                > will do the rest, as he sees fit, step-by-step."
                > [end]
                >
                > ME: That "as he sees fit" sounds like
                > a disclaimer and a Catch-22! And,
                > "states of consciousness do vary"
                > sounds like another clever escape
                > clause.
                >
                > Thus, when things Don't Work Out for
                > the chela it's because the Mahanta has
                > judged him/her to be at fault. The chela
                > is, always, to blame. The Teflon Mahanta,
                > thus, can only do good and only takes
                > credit for the "good" things that happen!
                > Unless, it's a "spiritual test" for the H.I.,
                > however, even "hard" tests lead to higher
                > consciousness so it's All Good... again!
                >
                > BTW- Why does a chela need the ECK
                > "and the Mahanta" to remedy a situation?
                > Why not just call upon the Holy Spirit?
                > That's what I do at times! Oh, I know why
                > ECK H.I.s don't! It's the Codependency
                > of Needing Klemp! The ECK is Free,
                > whereas, the Mahanta (Klemp) charges
                > money for an annual EK membership!
                >
                > Hey, I just realized that "found" money
                > could be used for that annual EK Membership
                > since it would be "donated" to a "non-profit"
                > org. and would support the Mahanta's
                > (God's) Mission around the world! Or,
                > one could put the found money in a slot
                > machine and take a chance on winning
                > even more money to donate to ECKankar!
                > Actually, EK H.I.s have done this!
                >
                >
                > Prometheus
                > p.s. Klemp uses 4 BUTS and continues
                > to contradict his own teachings found
                > in another H.I. Letter. Thus, this H.I.
                > Letter (teaching), too, must be just as
                > insignificant and irrelevant.
                >
              • whitemoby22
                Postekcon, Back when I was an Eckist (for only two years) I always preferred Twithcell s writings. Klemp, as you say, demonstrates such a high level of
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 10, 2009
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                  Postekcon, Back when I was an Eckist (for only two years) I always preferred Twithcell's writings. Klemp, as you say, demonstrates such a high level of stupidity, it would be laughable were it not so frightening. - Of course, back then, I did not know that Twitchell plagarized so much of his work. However, he plagarized from some fascinating stuff, and that was what I responded to. Ultimately, I could not gel the more authentic stuff with the more fantastical stuff.

                  moby...



                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Whitemoby22,
                  > Prometheus has already commented on most of the article [see below].
                  >
                  > I wanted to focus on the short 'money' story, within the article, because of the serious implications it can have on the subconscious of unwitting readers. The story is also a good demonstration of the high level of stupidity contained in much of HK's writings, and is similar in effect to how many politicians operate, where a policy is not thought through!
                  >
                  > The HI letter is sent quarterly to HIs.
                  > Postekcon
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "whitemoby22" <whitemoby22@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > This story about picking up money is troubling. I would love to read that article. I have access to the regular newsletter, but not to the H.I. Letter. Are the H.I. Letters sent only to HIs?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks, Postekcon
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Picking Up Money from the Street 'Will Make You Sick'
                  > > >
                  > > > Excerpt, H.I. Letter 09/2009
                  > > > >>
                  > > > One day, he [HK follower] was sick. He felt an urge to ask God the
                  > > > reason for his sickness, his fever.
                  > > > In a dream, he was out walking, when he came upon some money. He bent
                  > > > down and picked it up. Just then, a madman [aka 'inner master'] ran
                  > > > towards him shouting, "Don't you know that it is the money you pick up
                  > > > that makes you sick? Drop it, or you'll be sick again!"
                  > > > The dreamer dropped the money. When he remembered the dream later, it
                  > > > became very clear that picking up another's property was the cause of
                  > > > his recurrent illnesses. He stopped the practice.
                  > > > >>
                  > > >
                  > > > In the above story HK explains how when an individual picks up an object
                  > > > that was once owned or handled by another person, it is 'bad karma'!
                  > > >
                  > > > Usually 'bad karma' is when a spiritual principle has been broken
                  > > > [either knowingly or unknowingly].
                  > > >
                  > > > The followers of HK have a major dilemma here, as HK fails to clarify
                  > > > what spiritual law they've violated should they pick up an object from
                  > > > the street. And since HK gives them no parameters whatsoever, paranoia
                  > > > and confusion will follow. So in trying to apply this 'new' ruling, will
                  > > > it also mean it is 'bad karma' for them to:
                  > > >
                  > > > - pick a wild flower or pebble from the beach [these will always be
                  > > > owned by someone, somewhere]
                  > > > - touch any object that was once owned or used by another person
                  > > > - breathe-in even, lest some of this air might contain expelled air from
                  > > > another!
                  > > > - and what if the object was gathered by an animal [they're recognized
                  > > > as soul too]
                  > > > - and is the karmic debt to the last handler of the property, or last
                  > > > owner/s?
                  > > > - and how do they teach their children now about 'karma' etc?
                  > > >
                  > > > N.B.
                  > > > In any case, money itself is never owned, it is only a currency [method
                  > > > of barter], a promissory 'note'.
                  > > > Written upon the US dollar bill are these words:
                  > > > THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE
                  > > > [perhaps the founding fathers intended to include karmic debt as well!
                  > > > LOL]
                  > > >
                  > > > It isn't necessary to elaborate any further on the paranoia and lack of
                  > > > understanding of the laws of the universe and laws of the land, HK
                  > > > demonstrates in his writings.
                  > > >
                  > > > CAUSE AND EFFECT
                  > > > Newton's Law of Motion: 'To every action there is an equal and opposite
                  > > > reaction'. Commonly known as 'cause and effect', this principle seems to
                  > > > give credibility to the concept of 'karma'. However, in some circles of
                  > > > science [atomic], Newton's law of motion is shown to be false.
                  > > >
                  > > > In the world of the 'atom', it's been scientifically proven that the
                  > > > packets or particles of energy which comprise the atom, DO NOT follow
                  > > > the principle of cause and effect, but instead follow randomity. So at
                  > > > atomic level, the principle of 'to every action there is an equal and
                  > > > opposite reaction' is incorrect.
                  > > >
                  > > > Consequently, this makes the case for karma wrong, for 'cause and
                  > > > effect' is not the way the universe works at all at its creative core or
                  > > > spiritual principle.
                  > > >
                  > > > So why then at present, is HK so hung-up on karma, rather than on
                  > > > fostering true creativity and randomity in his followers? It is because
                  > > > instilling fear is so effective as a control mechanism tool. The 'money'
                  > > > story [above] is a typical example of how HK uses auto-suggestion to
                  > > > consolidate habits of introversion in his followers. He instills in them
                  > > > fear so they become paralysed, unable even to reach out and pick up a
                  > > > button off the floor! This pattern of behaviour can only lead to mental
                  > > > illness and abberations of 'withdrawal' - downward spiral.
                  > > > [Remind you of anyone?]
                  > > >
                  > > > PS.
                  > > > To return to the original story as told by HK, it was a madman who
                  > > > explained to the HK follower, how picking up coins from the street was
                  > > > making him sick!
                  > > > Yes, truly a 'madman'...
                  > > > Postekcon
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hello All,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > These are excerpts only. Klemp's
                  > > > > entire article makes me question
                  > > > > his mental acuity. Really! Something
                  > > > > is wrong... it has to be. This is just too
                  > > > > basic and simple-minded for chelas
                  > > > > let alone H.I.s! [My brackets and caps]
                  > > > >
                  > > > > HK: "People's states of consciousness
                  > > > > rise by small steps, over many lifetimes.
                  > > > > For example, any of us would likely be
                  > > > > uncomfortable IF a giant's hand should
                  > > > > pick us up and unceremoniously plop
                  > > > > us down in a London marketplace way
                  > > > > back in Shakespeare's time."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ME: Next, Klemp tells us all about how
                  > > > > bad the living conditions were back then
                  > > > > versus now. However, what's this about
                  > > > > "a giant's hand?" Is this "giant" the sky
                  > > > > God or the Mahanta (Klemp)? Do H.I.s
                  > > > > really need the image of a "giant's hand"
                  > > > > to pick them up and take them to London,
                  > > > > and back in time? Is this "giant" another
                  > > > > Unknown EK Master?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > HK: "Their level of consciousness guides
                  > > > > their behavior. [1] BUT they are learning
                  > > > > too, step by step, drawing even closer to
                  > > > > ECK. Why am I giving the ABCs of spiritual
                  > > > > unfoldment? So you Do Not forget."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ME: Maybe it's Klemp who is having
                  > > > > the memory problems! ABCs? That's
                  > > > > really too basic for those (H.I.s) with
                  > > > > a superior/normal consciousness!
                  > > > > Isn't it?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > HK: "Let them recall for you your own
                  > > > > early steps toward the ECK teachings,
                  > > > > this time around. You need to remember
                  > > > > the `baby` you in order to be a clear channel
                  > > > > for the Mahanta. Small, itty-bitty steps do
                  > > > > lead to love divine."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ME: "This time around" I doubt that
                  > > > > "the baby you" remembers or did all
                  > > > > that much that matters! Do H.I.s need
                  > > > > to be spoon fed too? I don't know what
                  > > > > these H.I.s think, but it seems that Klemp
                  > > > > is talking down, way down, to them!
                  > > > > Why does Klemp want H.I.s to digress
                  > > > > in consciousness to earlier times? Or,
                  > > > > is he saying that it takes "itty-bitty"
                  > > > > baby "steps" to get to that next initiation
                  > > > > and that's why it's taking so long...
                  > > > > the same old excuse! Darwin handed
                  > > > > out plenty of Higher Initiations and
                  > > > > Klemp got his share and more!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Why doesn't Klemp ever mention having
                  > > > > empathy in order to be a `clear channel?'
                  > > > > [Isn't being 'clear' a Scientology term?]
                  > > > > Anyway, Klemp can't relate to having
                  > > > > empathy. And, perhaps, many of these
                  > > > > long-time H.I.s have surpassed him in
                  > > > > consciousness! Thus, this message is
                  > > > > meant to control them (HK needs the
                  > > > > vahanas) and he's trying to smooth
                  > > > > out their long-standing frustrations,
                  > > > > with the RESA hierarchy, as well as,
                  > > > > with sitting on those 7th initiations.
                  > > > > HK needs to remind them of their place
                  > > > > as subordinates and servants within
                  > > > > the EK hierarchy. They will, forever,
                  > > > > be babies needing his care. I'll bet
                  > > > > Joan will be the one changing the
                  > > > > diapers!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Anyway, next, Klemp has a standard
                  > > > > Nigerian story. This one is about finding
                  > > > > money on the ground and NOT picking
                  > > > > it up because IF you do you can get sick
                  > > > > due to Karmic effects. This, of course,
                  > > > > doesn't and never did make sense to
                  > > > > me, but I used to follow this nutty EK
                  > > > > practice too! Silly me! Now, I see "found"
                  > > > > money as a positive blessing. And,
                  > > > > I don't get sick after picking it up and
                  > > > > keeping it... never did before EK and
                  > > > > don't now!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > In retrospect, it's a very superstitious
                  > > > > and negative practice (Black Magic)
                  > > > > to believe that found money is karmically
                  > > > > bad. However, this superstitious and
                  > > > > ritualistic belief/mindset probably sounds
                  > > > > believable with most New Age ECKists
                  > > > > anywhere, and not just in Nigeria!
                  > > > > What spiritual Law does picking up
                  > > > > lost money violate? Klemp is never
                  > > > > too specific.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/nigeria/nigeria_religion.html
                  > > > >
                  > > > > HK: "[2] BUT a fellow passenger, who
                  > > > > had been a listener until then, told a story.
                  > > > > He admitted to being a lucky person
                  > > > > who often found money in the street..."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ME: Next, Klemp has a story about
                  > > > > "Jen" and her depression due to her
                  > > > > mother's death and how the Mahanta
                  > > > > "gave" her two dogs, and then healed
                  > > > > one of them via a miracle!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > HK: "`Jen' had suffered the unexpected
                  > > > > loss of her mother Several Years Earlier
                  > > > > and had then fallen into a deep state of
                  > > > > depression. [3] BUT the Mahanta brought
                  > > > > two Boston terriers, `Lady' and `Fifi,'
                  > > > > into her life. They lifted Jen's depression."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ME: Why did Klemp, the Mahanta, wait
                  > > > > so long and then take credit? Why does
                  > > > > Klemp take credit for only "good things"
                  > > > > in the lives of his Chelas? Why didn't
                  > > > > Klemp (the Mahanta) heal Jen's mother?
                  > > > > Or, better yet, why didn't the Mahanta
                  > > > > protect/heal Jen from having depression?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > And, couldn't HK comfort Jen with his
                  > > > > words of wisdom or via dreams with
                  > > > > her mother, etc.? See, this doesn't
                  > > > > make sense that the "Inner Master"
                  > > > > takes credit for giving her distractions
                  > > > > or substitutes for her mother (two dogs)
                  > > > > rather than resolving the issue of death
                  > > > > with Jen and her recently departed mother.
                  > > > > When non-ECKists buy two dogs, or have
                  > > > > them given to them, after the death of
                  > > > > a mother and/or father is the Mahanta/
                  > > > > God (Klemp) doing this as well? No!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > HK: "Every day when Jen returned from
                  > > > > work, the dogs would greet her at the
                  > > > > door: Fifi would bounce; Lady, wiggle.
                  > > > > That all changed one day. Fifi started
                  > > > > for the door as usual [4] BUT suddenly
                  > > > > let out a horrifying howl of pain. Alarmed,
                  > > > > Jen took her to a vet."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ME: Maybe Fifi found, and ate, some money
                  > > > > while outside to potty! I wonder why she
                  > > > > (this dog) had such Bad Karma? Maybe
                  > > > > it was a "spiritual test" for Fifi? Nope! The
                  > > > > dog had to go through this pain because
                  > > > > Jen had to have a "dream" with EK Master
                  > > > > Prajapati (the EK Master in charge of animals).
                  > > > > Thus, Fifi was healed by Prajapati it was
                  > > > > a "Miracle!" Apparently Fifi had a "change
                  > > > > in consciousness." LOL! Maybe H.I.s should
                  > > > > call upon Prajapati instead of the Mahanta
                  > > > > (Klemp) to heal them as well!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I'm still not sure why Jen didn't have
                  > > > > a dream with her mother. After all, her
                  > > > > mother's death is what caused her suffering
                  > > > > and depression "years earlier!" Klemp,
                  > > > > conveniently, skips over addressing this
                  > > > > very important detail. So, why didn't Jen
                  > > > > have a dream experience, with her mother,
                  > > > > (or the Mahanta) that would resolve her
                  > > > > depression? What happened to having
                  > > > > an "inner" healing versus an outer one?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > HK: "So it is a reminder of how states
                  > > > > of consciousness do vary. Let others
                  > > > > know about the ECK, and the Mahanta
                  > > > > will do the rest, as he sees fit, step-by-step."
                  > > > > [end]
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ME: That "as he sees fit" sounds like
                  > > > > a disclaimer and a Catch-22! And,
                  > > > > "states of consciousness do vary"
                  > > > > sounds like another clever escape
                  > > > > clause.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thus, when things Don't Work Out for
                  > > > > the chela it's because the Mahanta has
                  > > > > judged him/her to be at fault. The chela
                  > > > > is, always, to blame. The Teflon Mahanta,
                  > > > > thus, can only do good and only takes
                  > > > > credit for the "good" things that happen!
                  > > > > Unless, it's a "spiritual test" for the H.I.,
                  > > > > however, even "hard" tests lead to higher
                  > > > > consciousness so it's All Good... again!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > BTW- Why does a chela need the ECK
                  > > > > "and the Mahanta" to remedy a situation?
                  > > > > Why not just call upon the Holy Spirit?
                  > > > > That's what I do at times! Oh, I know why
                  > > > > ECK H.I.s don't! It's the Codependency
                  > > > > of Needing Klemp! The ECK is Free,
                  > > > > whereas, the Mahanta (Klemp) charges
                  > > > > money for an annual EK membership!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hey, I just realized that "found" money
                  > > > > could be used for that annual EK Membership
                  > > > > since it would be "donated" to a "non-profit"
                  > > > > org. and would support the Mahanta's
                  > > > > (God's) Mission around the world! Or,
                  > > > > one could put the found money in a slot
                  > > > > machine and take a chance on winning
                  > > > > even more money to donate to ECKankar!
                  > > > > Actually, EK H.I.s have done this!
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Prometheus
                  > > > > p.s. Klemp uses 4 BUTS and continues
                  > > > > to contradict his own teachings found
                  > > > > in another H.I. Letter. Thus, this H.I.
                  > > > > Letter (teaching), too, must be just as
                  > > > > insignificant and irrelevant.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • postekcon
                  MONEY Story, Has Only One Meaning: After picking up an object from the street WASH YOUR HANDS or it will make you sick! LOL! Postekcon
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 10, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    'MONEY' Story, Has Only One Meaning:

                    After picking up an object from the street
                    WASH YOUR HANDS
                    or it will make you sick! LOL!
                    Postekcon


                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "whitemoby22" <whitemoby22@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Postekcon, Back when I was an Eckist (for only two years) I always preferred Twithcell's writings. Klemp, as you say, demonstrates such a high level of stupidity, it would be laughable were it not so frightening. - Of course, back then, I did not know that Twitchell plagarized so much of his work. However, he plagarized from some fascinating stuff, and that was what I responded to. Ultimately, I could not gel the more authentic stuff with the more fantastical stuff.
                    >
                    > moby...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Whitemoby22,
                    > > Prometheus has already commented on most of the article [see below].
                    > >
                    > > I wanted to focus on the short 'money' story, within the article, because of the serious implications it can have on the subconscious of unwitting readers. The story is also a good demonstration of the high level of stupidity contained in much of HK's writings, and is similar in effect to how many politicians operate, where a policy is not thought through!
                    > >
                    > > The HI letter is sent quarterly to HIs.
                    > > Postekcon
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "whitemoby22" <whitemoby22@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > This story about picking up money is troubling. I would love to read that article. I have access to the regular newsletter, but not to the H.I. Letter. Are the H.I. Letters sent only to HIs?
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks, Postekcon
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Picking Up Money from the Street 'Will Make You Sick'
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Excerpt, H.I. Letter 09/2009
                    > > > > >>
                    > > > > One day, he [HK follower] was sick. He felt an urge to ask God the
                    > > > > reason for his sickness, his fever.
                    > > > > In a dream, he was out walking, when he came upon some money. He bent
                    > > > > down and picked it up. Just then, a madman [aka 'inner master'] ran
                    > > > > towards him shouting, "Don't you know that it is the money you pick up
                    > > > > that makes you sick? Drop it, or you'll be sick again!"
                    > > > > The dreamer dropped the money. When he remembered the dream later, it
                    > > > > became very clear that picking up another's property was the cause of
                    > > > > his recurrent illnesses. He stopped the practice.
                    > > > > >>
                    > > > >
                    > > > > In the above story HK explains how when an individual picks up an object
                    > > > > that was once owned or handled by another person, it is 'bad karma'!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Usually 'bad karma' is when a spiritual principle has been broken
                    > > > > [either knowingly or unknowingly].
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The followers of HK have a major dilemma here, as HK fails to clarify
                    > > > > what spiritual law they've violated should they pick up an object from
                    > > > > the street. And since HK gives them no parameters whatsoever, paranoia
                    > > > > and confusion will follow. So in trying to apply this 'new' ruling, will
                    > > > > it also mean it is 'bad karma' for them to:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > - pick a wild flower or pebble from the beach [these will always be
                    > > > > owned by someone, somewhere]
                    > > > > - touch any object that was once owned or used by another person
                    > > > > - breathe-in even, lest some of this air might contain expelled air from
                    > > > > another!
                    > > > > - and what if the object was gathered by an animal [they're recognized
                    > > > > as soul too]
                    > > > > - and is the karmic debt to the last handler of the property, or last
                    > > > > owner/s?
                    > > > > - and how do they teach their children now about 'karma' etc?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > N.B.
                    > > > > In any case, money itself is never owned, it is only a currency [method
                    > > > > of barter], a promissory 'note'.
                    > > > > Written upon the US dollar bill are these words:
                    > > > > THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE
                    > > > > [perhaps the founding fathers intended to include karmic debt as well!
                    > > > > LOL]
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It isn't necessary to elaborate any further on the paranoia and lack of
                    > > > > understanding of the laws of the universe and laws of the land, HK
                    > > > > demonstrates in his writings.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > CAUSE AND EFFECT
                    > > > > Newton's Law of Motion: 'To every action there is an equal and opposite
                    > > > > reaction'. Commonly known as 'cause and effect', this principle seems to
                    > > > > give credibility to the concept of 'karma'. However, in some circles of
                    > > > > science [atomic], Newton's law of motion is shown to be false.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > In the world of the 'atom', it's been scientifically proven that the
                    > > > > packets or particles of energy which comprise the atom, DO NOT follow
                    > > > > the principle of cause and effect, but instead follow randomity. So at
                    > > > > atomic level, the principle of 'to every action there is an equal and
                    > > > > opposite reaction' is incorrect.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Consequently, this makes the case for karma wrong, for 'cause and
                    > > > > effect' is not the way the universe works at all at its creative core or
                    > > > > spiritual principle.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So why then at present, is HK so hung-up on karma, rather than on
                    > > > > fostering true creativity and randomity in his followers? It is because
                    > > > > instilling fear is so effective as a control mechanism tool. The 'money'
                    > > > > story [above] is a typical example of how HK uses auto-suggestion to
                    > > > > consolidate habits of introversion in his followers. He instills in them
                    > > > > fear so they become paralysed, unable even to reach out and pick up a
                    > > > > button off the floor! This pattern of behaviour can only lead to mental
                    > > > > illness and abberations of 'withdrawal' - downward spiral.
                    > > > > [Remind you of anyone?]
                    > > > >
                    > > > > PS.
                    > > > > To return to the original story as told by HK, it was a madman who
                    > > > > explained to the HK follower, how picking up coins from the street was
                    > > > > making him sick!
                    > > > > Yes, truly a 'madman'...
                    > > > > Postekcon
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    > > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hello All,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > These are excerpts only. Klemp's
                    > > > > > entire article makes me question
                    > > > > > his mental acuity. Really! Something
                    > > > > > is wrong... it has to be. This is just too
                    > > > > > basic and simple-minded for chelas
                    > > > > > let alone H.I.s! [My brackets and caps]
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > HK: "People's states of consciousness
                    > > > > > rise by small steps, over many lifetimes.
                    > > > > > For example, any of us would likely be
                    > > > > > uncomfortable IF a giant's hand should
                    > > > > > pick us up and unceremoniously plop
                    > > > > > us down in a London marketplace way
                    > > > > > back in Shakespeare's time."
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ME: Next, Klemp tells us all about how
                    > > > > > bad the living conditions were back then
                    > > > > > versus now. However, what's this about
                    > > > > > "a giant's hand?" Is this "giant" the sky
                    > > > > > God or the Mahanta (Klemp)? Do H.I.s
                    > > > > > really need the image of a "giant's hand"
                    > > > > > to pick them up and take them to London,
                    > > > > > and back in time? Is this "giant" another
                    > > > > > Unknown EK Master?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > HK: "Their level of consciousness guides
                    > > > > > their behavior. [1] BUT they are learning
                    > > > > > too, step by step, drawing even closer to
                    > > > > > ECK. Why am I giving the ABCs of spiritual
                    > > > > > unfoldment? So you Do Not forget."
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ME: Maybe it's Klemp who is having
                    > > > > > the memory problems! ABCs? That's
                    > > > > > really too basic for those (H.I.s) with
                    > > > > > a superior/normal consciousness!
                    > > > > > Isn't it?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > HK: "Let them recall for you your own
                    > > > > > early steps toward the ECK teachings,
                    > > > > > this time around. You need to remember
                    > > > > > the `baby` you in order to be a clear channel
                    > > > > > for the Mahanta. Small, itty-bitty steps do
                    > > > > > lead to love divine."
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ME: "This time around" I doubt that
                    > > > > > "the baby you" remembers or did all
                    > > > > > that much that matters! Do H.I.s need
                    > > > > > to be spoon fed too? I don't know what
                    > > > > > these H.I.s think, but it seems that Klemp
                    > > > > > is talking down, way down, to them!
                    > > > > > Why does Klemp want H.I.s to digress
                    > > > > > in consciousness to earlier times? Or,
                    > > > > > is he saying that it takes "itty-bitty"
                    > > > > > baby "steps" to get to that next initiation
                    > > > > > and that's why it's taking so long...
                    > > > > > the same old excuse! Darwin handed
                    > > > > > out plenty of Higher Initiations and
                    > > > > > Klemp got his share and more!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Why doesn't Klemp ever mention having
                    > > > > > empathy in order to be a `clear channel?'
                    > > > > > [Isn't being 'clear' a Scientology term?]
                    > > > > > Anyway, Klemp can't relate to having
                    > > > > > empathy. And, perhaps, many of these
                    > > > > > long-time H.I.s have surpassed him in
                    > > > > > consciousness! Thus, this message is
                    > > > > > meant to control them (HK needs the
                    > > > > > vahanas) and he's trying to smooth
                    > > > > > out their long-standing frustrations,
                    > > > > > with the RESA hierarchy, as well as,
                    > > > > > with sitting on those 7th initiations.
                    > > > > > HK needs to remind them of their place
                    > > > > > as subordinates and servants within
                    > > > > > the EK hierarchy. They will, forever,
                    > > > > > be babies needing his care. I'll bet
                    > > > > > Joan will be the one changing the
                    > > > > > diapers!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Anyway, next, Klemp has a standard
                    > > > > > Nigerian story. This one is about finding
                    > > > > > money on the ground and NOT picking
                    > > > > > it up because IF you do you can get sick
                    > > > > > due to Karmic effects. This, of course,
                    > > > > > doesn't and never did make sense to
                    > > > > > me, but I used to follow this nutty EK
                    > > > > > practice too! Silly me! Now, I see "found"
                    > > > > > money as a positive blessing. And,
                    > > > > > I don't get sick after picking it up and
                    > > > > > keeping it... never did before EK and
                    > > > > > don't now!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > In retrospect, it's a very superstitious
                    > > > > > and negative practice (Black Magic)
                    > > > > > to believe that found money is karmically
                    > > > > > bad. However, this superstitious and
                    > > > > > ritualistic belief/mindset probably sounds
                    > > > > > believable with most New Age ECKists
                    > > > > > anywhere, and not just in Nigeria!
                    > > > > > What spiritual Law does picking up
                    > > > > > lost money violate? Klemp is never
                    > > > > > too specific.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/nigeria/nigeria_religion.html
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > HK: "[2] BUT a fellow passenger, who
                    > > > > > had been a listener until then, told a story.
                    > > > > > He admitted to being a lucky person
                    > > > > > who often found money in the street..."
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ME: Next, Klemp has a story about
                    > > > > > "Jen" and her depression due to her
                    > > > > > mother's death and how the Mahanta
                    > > > > > "gave" her two dogs, and then healed
                    > > > > > one of them via a miracle!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > HK: "`Jen' had suffered the unexpected
                    > > > > > loss of her mother Several Years Earlier
                    > > > > > and had then fallen into a deep state of
                    > > > > > depression. [3] BUT the Mahanta brought
                    > > > > > two Boston terriers, `Lady' and `Fifi,'
                    > > > > > into her life. They lifted Jen's depression."
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ME: Why did Klemp, the Mahanta, wait
                    > > > > > so long and then take credit? Why does
                    > > > > > Klemp take credit for only "good things"
                    > > > > > in the lives of his Chelas? Why didn't
                    > > > > > Klemp (the Mahanta) heal Jen's mother?
                    > > > > > Or, better yet, why didn't the Mahanta
                    > > > > > protect/heal Jen from having depression?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > And, couldn't HK comfort Jen with his
                    > > > > > words of wisdom or via dreams with
                    > > > > > her mother, etc.? See, this doesn't
                    > > > > > make sense that the "Inner Master"
                    > > > > > takes credit for giving her distractions
                    > > > > > or substitutes for her mother (two dogs)
                    > > > > > rather than resolving the issue of death
                    > > > > > with Jen and her recently departed mother.
                    > > > > > When non-ECKists buy two dogs, or have
                    > > > > > them given to them, after the death of
                    > > > > > a mother and/or father is the Mahanta/
                    > > > > > God (Klemp) doing this as well? No!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > HK: "Every day when Jen returned from
                    > > > > > work, the dogs would greet her at the
                    > > > > > door: Fifi would bounce; Lady, wiggle.
                    > > > > > That all changed one day. Fifi started
                    > > > > > for the door as usual [4] BUT suddenly
                    > > > > > let out a horrifying howl of pain. Alarmed,
                    > > > > > Jen took her to a vet."
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ME: Maybe Fifi found, and ate, some money
                    > > > > > while outside to potty! I wonder why she
                    > > > > > (this dog) had such Bad Karma? Maybe
                    > > > > > it was a "spiritual test" for Fifi? Nope! The
                    > > > > > dog had to go through this pain because
                    > > > > > Jen had to have a "dream" with EK Master
                    > > > > > Prajapati (the EK Master in charge of animals).
                    > > > > > Thus, Fifi was healed by Prajapati it was
                    > > > > > a "Miracle!" Apparently Fifi had a "change
                    > > > > > in consciousness." LOL! Maybe H.I.s should
                    > > > > > call upon Prajapati instead of the Mahanta
                    > > > > > (Klemp) to heal them as well!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I'm still not sure why Jen didn't have
                    > > > > > a dream with her mother. After all, her
                    > > > > > mother's death is what caused her suffering
                    > > > > > and depression "years earlier!" Klemp,
                    > > > > > conveniently, skips over addressing this
                    > > > > > very important detail. So, why didn't Jen
                    > > > > > have a dream experience, with her mother,
                    > > > > > (or the Mahanta) that would resolve her
                    > > > > > depression? What happened to having
                    > > > > > an "inner" healing versus an outer one?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > HK: "So it is a reminder of how states
                    > > > > > of consciousness do vary. Let others
                    > > > > > know about the ECK, and the Mahanta
                    > > > > > will do the rest, as he sees fit, step-by-step."
                    > > > > > [end]
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ME: That "as he sees fit" sounds like
                    > > > > > a disclaimer and a Catch-22! And,
                    > > > > > "states of consciousness do vary"
                    > > > > > sounds like another clever escape
                    > > > > > clause.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Thus, when things Don't Work Out for
                    > > > > > the chela it's because the Mahanta has
                    > > > > > judged him/her to be at fault. The chela
                    > > > > > is, always, to blame. The Teflon Mahanta,
                    > > > > > thus, can only do good and only takes
                    > > > > > credit for the "good" things that happen!
                    > > > > > Unless, it's a "spiritual test" for the H.I.,
                    > > > > > however, even "hard" tests lead to higher
                    > > > > > consciousness so it's All Good... again!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > BTW- Why does a chela need the ECK
                    > > > > > "and the Mahanta" to remedy a situation?
                    > > > > > Why not just call upon the Holy Spirit?
                    > > > > > That's what I do at times! Oh, I know why
                    > > > > > ECK H.I.s don't! It's the Codependency
                    > > > > > of Needing Klemp! The ECK is Free,
                    > > > > > whereas, the Mahanta (Klemp) charges
                    > > > > > money for an annual EK membership!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hey, I just realized that "found" money
                    > > > > > could be used for that annual EK Membership
                    > > > > > since it would be "donated" to a "non-profit"
                    > > > > > org. and would support the Mahanta's
                    > > > > > (God's) Mission around the world! Or,
                    > > > > > one could put the found money in a slot
                    > > > > > machine and take a chance on winning
                    > > > > > even more money to donate to ECKankar!
                    > > > > > Actually, EK H.I.s have done this!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Prometheus
                    > > > > > p.s. Klemp uses 4 BUTS and continues
                    > > > > > to contradict his own teachings found
                    > > > > > in another H.I. Letter. Thus, this H.I.
                    > > > > > Letter (teaching), too, must be just as
                    > > > > > insignificant and irrelevant.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • noneckster
                    A true Demonstration of Klemp s powers as LEM would be to eat something off of a Walmart parking lot, or to lick a chocolate bar off the same lot that had been
                    Message 9 of 9 , Sep 11, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      A true Demonstration of Klemp's powers as LEM would be to eat something off of a Walmart parking lot, or to lick a chocolate bar off the same lot that had been stepped on a lot. LOL And not get sick in any way whatsoever. LOL (No brushing of teeth or mouth wash allowed!)

                      Non eckster ; )

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > 'MONEY' Story, Has Only One Meaning:
                      >
                      > After picking up an object from the street
                      > WASH YOUR HANDS
                      > or it will make you sick! LOL!
                      > Postekcon
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "whitemoby22" <whitemoby22@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Postekcon, Back when I was an Eckist (for only two years) I always preferred Twithcell's writings. Klemp, as you say, demonstrates such a high level of stupidity, it would be laughable were it not so frightening. - Of course, back then, I did not know that Twitchell plagarized so much of his work. However, he plagarized from some fascinating stuff, and that was what I responded to. Ultimately, I could not gel the more authentic stuff with the more fantastical stuff.
                      > >
                      > > moby...
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Whitemoby22,
                      > > > Prometheus has already commented on most of the article [see below].
                      > > >
                      > > > I wanted to focus on the short 'money' story, within the article, because of the serious implications it can have on the subconscious of unwitting readers. The story is also a good demonstration of the high level of stupidity contained in much of HK's writings, and is similar in effect to how many politicians operate, where a policy is not thought through!
                      > > >
                      > > > The HI letter is sent quarterly to HIs.
                      > > > Postekcon
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "whitemoby22" <whitemoby22@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > This story about picking up money is troubling. I would love to read that article. I have access to the regular newsletter, but not to the H.I. Letter. Are the H.I. Letters sent only to HIs?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks, Postekcon
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "postekcon" <postekcon@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Picking Up Money from the Street 'Will Make You Sick'
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Excerpt, H.I. Letter 09/2009
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > One day, he [HK follower] was sick. He felt an urge to ask God the
                      > > > > > reason for his sickness, his fever.
                      > > > > > In a dream, he was out walking, when he came upon some money. He bent
                      > > > > > down and picked it up. Just then, a madman [aka 'inner master'] ran
                      > > > > > towards him shouting, "Don't you know that it is the money you pick up
                      > > > > > that makes you sick? Drop it, or you'll be sick again!"
                      > > > > > The dreamer dropped the money. When he remembered the dream later, it
                      > > > > > became very clear that picking up another's property was the cause of
                      > > > > > his recurrent illnesses. He stopped the practice.
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > In the above story HK explains how when an individual picks up an object
                      > > > > > that was once owned or handled by another person, it is 'bad karma'!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Usually 'bad karma' is when a spiritual principle has been broken
                      > > > > > [either knowingly or unknowingly].
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The followers of HK have a major dilemma here, as HK fails to clarify
                      > > > > > what spiritual law they've violated should they pick up an object from
                      > > > > > the street. And since HK gives them no parameters whatsoever, paranoia
                      > > > > > and confusion will follow. So in trying to apply this 'new' ruling, will
                      > > > > > it also mean it is 'bad karma' for them to:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > - pick a wild flower or pebble from the beach [these will always be
                      > > > > > owned by someone, somewhere]
                      > > > > > - touch any object that was once owned or used by another person
                      > > > > > - breathe-in even, lest some of this air might contain expelled air from
                      > > > > > another!
                      > > > > > - and what if the object was gathered by an animal [they're recognized
                      > > > > > as soul too]
                      > > > > > - and is the karmic debt to the last handler of the property, or last
                      > > > > > owner/s?
                      > > > > > - and how do they teach their children now about 'karma' etc?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > N.B.
                      > > > > > In any case, money itself is never owned, it is only a currency [method
                      > > > > > of barter], a promissory 'note'.
                      > > > > > Written upon the US dollar bill are these words:
                      > > > > > THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE
                      > > > > > [perhaps the founding fathers intended to include karmic debt as well!
                      > > > > > LOL]
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > It isn't necessary to elaborate any further on the paranoia and lack of
                      > > > > > understanding of the laws of the universe and laws of the land, HK
                      > > > > > demonstrates in his writings.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > CAUSE AND EFFECT
                      > > > > > Newton's Law of Motion: 'To every action there is an equal and opposite
                      > > > > > reaction'. Commonly known as 'cause and effect', this principle seems to
                      > > > > > give credibility to the concept of 'karma'. However, in some circles of
                      > > > > > science [atomic], Newton's law of motion is shown to be false.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > In the world of the 'atom', it's been scientifically proven that the
                      > > > > > packets or particles of energy which comprise the atom, DO NOT follow
                      > > > > > the principle of cause and effect, but instead follow randomity. So at
                      > > > > > atomic level, the principle of 'to every action there is an equal and
                      > > > > > opposite reaction' is incorrect.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Consequently, this makes the case for karma wrong, for 'cause and
                      > > > > > effect' is not the way the universe works at all at its creative core or
                      > > > > > spiritual principle.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > So why then at present, is HK so hung-up on karma, rather than on
                      > > > > > fostering true creativity and randomity in his followers? It is because
                      > > > > > instilling fear is so effective as a control mechanism tool. The 'money'
                      > > > > > story [above] is a typical example of how HK uses auto-suggestion to
                      > > > > > consolidate habits of introversion in his followers. He instills in them
                      > > > > > fear so they become paralysed, unable even to reach out and pick up a
                      > > > > > button off the floor! This pattern of behaviour can only lead to mental
                      > > > > > illness and abberations of 'withdrawal' - downward spiral.
                      > > > > > [Remind you of anyone?]
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > PS.
                      > > > > > To return to the original story as told by HK, it was a madman who
                      > > > > > explained to the HK follower, how picking up coins from the street was
                      > > > > > making him sick!
                      > > > > > Yes, truly a 'madman'...
                      > > > > > Postekcon
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      > > > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Hello All,
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > These are excerpts only. Klemp's
                      > > > > > > entire article makes me question
                      > > > > > > his mental acuity. Really! Something
                      > > > > > > is wrong... it has to be. This is just too
                      > > > > > > basic and simple-minded for chelas
                      > > > > > > let alone H.I.s! [My brackets and caps]
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > HK: "People's states of consciousness
                      > > > > > > rise by small steps, over many lifetimes.
                      > > > > > > For example, any of us would likely be
                      > > > > > > uncomfortable IF a giant's hand should
                      > > > > > > pick us up and unceremoniously plop
                      > > > > > > us down in a London marketplace way
                      > > > > > > back in Shakespeare's time."
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ME: Next, Klemp tells us all about how
                      > > > > > > bad the living conditions were back then
                      > > > > > > versus now. However, what's this about
                      > > > > > > "a giant's hand?" Is this "giant" the sky
                      > > > > > > God or the Mahanta (Klemp)? Do H.I.s
                      > > > > > > really need the image of a "giant's hand"
                      > > > > > > to pick them up and take them to London,
                      > > > > > > and back in time? Is this "giant" another
                      > > > > > > Unknown EK Master?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > HK: "Their level of consciousness guides
                      > > > > > > their behavior. [1] BUT they are learning
                      > > > > > > too, step by step, drawing even closer to
                      > > > > > > ECK. Why am I giving the ABCs of spiritual
                      > > > > > > unfoldment? So you Do Not forget."
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ME: Maybe it's Klemp who is having
                      > > > > > > the memory problems! ABCs? That's
                      > > > > > > really too basic for those (H.I.s) with
                      > > > > > > a superior/normal consciousness!
                      > > > > > > Isn't it?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > HK: "Let them recall for you your own
                      > > > > > > early steps toward the ECK teachings,
                      > > > > > > this time around. You need to remember
                      > > > > > > the `baby` you in order to be a clear channel
                      > > > > > > for the Mahanta. Small, itty-bitty steps do
                      > > > > > > lead to love divine."
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ME: "This time around" I doubt that
                      > > > > > > "the baby you" remembers or did all
                      > > > > > > that much that matters! Do H.I.s need
                      > > > > > > to be spoon fed too? I don't know what
                      > > > > > > these H.I.s think, but it seems that Klemp
                      > > > > > > is talking down, way down, to them!
                      > > > > > > Why does Klemp want H.I.s to digress
                      > > > > > > in consciousness to earlier times? Or,
                      > > > > > > is he saying that it takes "itty-bitty"
                      > > > > > > baby "steps" to get to that next initiation
                      > > > > > > and that's why it's taking so long...
                      > > > > > > the same old excuse! Darwin handed
                      > > > > > > out plenty of Higher Initiations and
                      > > > > > > Klemp got his share and more!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Why doesn't Klemp ever mention having
                      > > > > > > empathy in order to be a `clear channel?'
                      > > > > > > [Isn't being 'clear' a Scientology term?]
                      > > > > > > Anyway, Klemp can't relate to having
                      > > > > > > empathy. And, perhaps, many of these
                      > > > > > > long-time H.I.s have surpassed him in
                      > > > > > > consciousness! Thus, this message is
                      > > > > > > meant to control them (HK needs the
                      > > > > > > vahanas) and he's trying to smooth
                      > > > > > > out their long-standing frustrations,
                      > > > > > > with the RESA hierarchy, as well as,
                      > > > > > > with sitting on those 7th initiations.
                      > > > > > > HK needs to remind them of their place
                      > > > > > > as subordinates and servants within
                      > > > > > > the EK hierarchy. They will, forever,
                      > > > > > > be babies needing his care. I'll bet
                      > > > > > > Joan will be the one changing the
                      > > > > > > diapers!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Anyway, next, Klemp has a standard
                      > > > > > > Nigerian story. This one is about finding
                      > > > > > > money on the ground and NOT picking
                      > > > > > > it up because IF you do you can get sick
                      > > > > > > due to Karmic effects. This, of course,
                      > > > > > > doesn't and never did make sense to
                      > > > > > > me, but I used to follow this nutty EK
                      > > > > > > practice too! Silly me! Now, I see "found"
                      > > > > > > money as a positive blessing. And,
                      > > > > > > I don't get sick after picking it up and
                      > > > > > > keeping it... never did before EK and
                      > > > > > > don't now!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > In retrospect, it's a very superstitious
                      > > > > > > and negative practice (Black Magic)
                      > > > > > > to believe that found money is karmically
                      > > > > > > bad. However, this superstitious and
                      > > > > > > ritualistic belief/mindset probably sounds
                      > > > > > > believable with most New Age ECKists
                      > > > > > > anywhere, and not just in Nigeria!
                      > > > > > > What spiritual Law does picking up
                      > > > > > > lost money violate? Klemp is never
                      > > > > > > too specific.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/nigeria/nigeria_religion.html
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > HK: "[2] BUT a fellow passenger, who
                      > > > > > > had been a listener until then, told a story.
                      > > > > > > He admitted to being a lucky person
                      > > > > > > who often found money in the street..."
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ME: Next, Klemp has a story about
                      > > > > > > "Jen" and her depression due to her
                      > > > > > > mother's death and how the Mahanta
                      > > > > > > "gave" her two dogs, and then healed
                      > > > > > > one of them via a miracle!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > HK: "`Jen' had suffered the unexpected
                      > > > > > > loss of her mother Several Years Earlier
                      > > > > > > and had then fallen into a deep state of
                      > > > > > > depression. [3] BUT the Mahanta brought
                      > > > > > > two Boston terriers, `Lady' and `Fifi,'
                      > > > > > > into her life. They lifted Jen's depression."
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ME: Why did Klemp, the Mahanta, wait
                      > > > > > > so long and then take credit? Why does
                      > > > > > > Klemp take credit for only "good things"
                      > > > > > > in the lives of his Chelas? Why didn't
                      > > > > > > Klemp (the Mahanta) heal Jen's mother?
                      > > > > > > Or, better yet, why didn't the Mahanta
                      > > > > > > protect/heal Jen from having depression?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > And, couldn't HK comfort Jen with his
                      > > > > > > words of wisdom or via dreams with
                      > > > > > > her mother, etc.? See, this doesn't
                      > > > > > > make sense that the "Inner Master"
                      > > > > > > takes credit for giving her distractions
                      > > > > > > or substitutes for her mother (two dogs)
                      > > > > > > rather than resolving the issue of death
                      > > > > > > with Jen and her recently departed mother.
                      > > > > > > When non-ECKists buy two dogs, or have
                      > > > > > > them given to them, after the death of
                      > > > > > > a mother and/or father is the Mahanta/
                      > > > > > > God (Klemp) doing this as well? No!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > HK: "Every day when Jen returned from
                      > > > > > > work, the dogs would greet her at the
                      > > > > > > door: Fifi would bounce; Lady, wiggle.
                      > > > > > > That all changed one day. Fifi started
                      > > > > > > for the door as usual [4] BUT suddenly
                      > > > > > > let out a horrifying howl of pain. Alarmed,
                      > > > > > > Jen took her to a vet."
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ME: Maybe Fifi found, and ate, some money
                      > > > > > > while outside to potty! I wonder why she
                      > > > > > > (this dog) had such Bad Karma? Maybe
                      > > > > > > it was a "spiritual test" for Fifi? Nope! The
                      > > > > > > dog had to go through this pain because
                      > > > > > > Jen had to have a "dream" with EK Master
                      > > > > > > Prajapati (the EK Master in charge of animals).
                      > > > > > > Thus, Fifi was healed by Prajapati it was
                      > > > > > > a "Miracle!" Apparently Fifi had a "change
                      > > > > > > in consciousness." LOL! Maybe H.I.s should
                      > > > > > > call upon Prajapati instead of the Mahanta
                      > > > > > > (Klemp) to heal them as well!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I'm still not sure why Jen didn't have
                      > > > > > > a dream with her mother. After all, her
                      > > > > > > mother's death is what caused her suffering
                      > > > > > > and depression "years earlier!" Klemp,
                      > > > > > > conveniently, skips over addressing this
                      > > > > > > very important detail. So, why didn't Jen
                      > > > > > > have a dream experience, with her mother,
                      > > > > > > (or the Mahanta) that would resolve her
                      > > > > > > depression? What happened to having
                      > > > > > > an "inner" healing versus an outer one?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > HK: "So it is a reminder of how states
                      > > > > > > of consciousness do vary. Let others
                      > > > > > > know about the ECK, and the Mahanta
                      > > > > > > will do the rest, as he sees fit, step-by-step."
                      > > > > > > [end]
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ME: That "as he sees fit" sounds like
                      > > > > > > a disclaimer and a Catch-22! And,
                      > > > > > > "states of consciousness do vary"
                      > > > > > > sounds like another clever escape
                      > > > > > > clause.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Thus, when things Don't Work Out for
                      > > > > > > the chela it's because the Mahanta has
                      > > > > > > judged him/her to be at fault. The chela
                      > > > > > > is, always, to blame. The Teflon Mahanta,
                      > > > > > > thus, can only do good and only takes
                      > > > > > > credit for the "good" things that happen!
                      > > > > > > Unless, it's a "spiritual test" for the H.I.,
                      > > > > > > however, even "hard" tests lead to higher
                      > > > > > > consciousness so it's All Good... again!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > BTW- Why does a chela need the ECK
                      > > > > > > "and the Mahanta" to remedy a situation?
                      > > > > > > Why not just call upon the Holy Spirit?
                      > > > > > > That's what I do at times! Oh, I know why
                      > > > > > > ECK H.I.s don't! It's the Codependency
                      > > > > > > of Needing Klemp! The ECK is Free,
                      > > > > > > whereas, the Mahanta (Klemp) charges
                      > > > > > > money for an annual EK membership!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Hey, I just realized that "found" money
                      > > > > > > could be used for that annual EK Membership
                      > > > > > > since it would be "donated" to a "non-profit"
                      > > > > > > org. and would support the Mahanta's
                      > > > > > > (God's) Mission around the world! Or,
                      > > > > > > one could put the found money in a slot
                      > > > > > > machine and take a chance on winning
                      > > > > > > even more money to donate to ECKankar!
                      > > > > > > Actually, EK H.I.s have done this!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Prometheus
                      > > > > > > p.s. Klemp uses 4 BUTS and continues
                      > > > > > > to contradict his own teachings found
                      > > > > > > in another H.I. Letter. Thus, this H.I.
                      > > > > > > Letter (teaching), too, must be just as
                      > > > > > > insignificant and irrelevant.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
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