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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] PT's "Rebazar - Torchbearer" Ruse

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Prometheus, That s really something. IMO. If even half of it is true, that doesn t look good to me. However, most of what you put forward is not what I see
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 31 4:33 PM
      Prometheus,

      That's really something. IMO. If even half of it
      is true, that doesn't look good to me. However,
      most of what you put forward is not what I see
      coming from Eckankar.org.

      Are you saying Eckankar promotes history
      that is knows isn't true? I've wondered about
      this a lot myself. What is the justification for
      substituting for history a myth?

      From the position of Eckankar Inc., I mean,
      if it knowingly has mythologized the truth and
      some of its history, what do you imagine is the
      justification on the part of the organization for
      doing that?

      To look at it another way, say it happens in
      the future that a lot of what you wrote turns up
      to be proven beyond a doubt. What would be
      the justification - on the part of Eckankar - if it
      refused to admit it were true?

      I'm trying to get an idea how, if a lot of what
      has come over the Net in the past decade is
      true, that it's still not being publicly confirmed
      by Eckankar Inc. as true?

      Maybe some of these things have been con-
      firmed. I don't know. Has anyone here called
      the main office at Eckankar and asked them
      whether such things were true? I wonder what
      have been the official responses. And lately.

      Etznab


      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:53 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] PT's=2
      0"Rebazar - Torchbearer" Ruse

       






      Hello Etznab and All,

      Paul Twitchell's real Master

      was Kirpal Singh and not

      Rebazar. Even Klemp mentions

      Kirpal's name 15 times (in

      the PT info on Eckankar.org)

      versus Sudar's name 4 times.

      Sudar Singh was another lie

      and Klemp knows it! "Sudar,"

      the 970th LEM, was actually

      Kirpal Singh, except, he wasn't

      any L "E" M, but he was a living

      Master (of Ruhani Satsang).



      Sawan Singh, Kirpal's Master,

      died without naming a successor

      and this caused a riff within

      Radhasoami and caused Kirpal

      to start his own sect/faction -

      Ruhani Satsang. No fake Master

      or "Torchbearer" was needed

      because Kirpal's Mastership

      was obvious to all who met

      him.



      However, this was not the case

      with the professional liar Twitchell

      because his past and present

      behaviours were tainted with

      on-going deceptions.



      Thus, after PT fell out of Grace

      with Sri Kirpal Singh, due mostly

      to his exaggerations in "The Tiger's

      Fang" manuscript, it was now

      necessary for Twit to recreate

      himself. He did this by creating

      the "invisible" 500 year old EK

      Master Rebazar Tarzs as the

      "Torchbearer" of EK (the Holy

      Spirit). PT did this in order to

      pass the "Rod of EK Power" to

      himself!



      And,
      after all, who can "disprove"

      an "invisible" Master! When people

      claim to have seen RT in their dreams

      (Law of Facsimiles) and imagine

      they have seen him on the streets,

      or in their bedrooms dictating lessons

      this becomes their proof... even

      though it's a lie! Normal people

      would be seen as crazy or delusional,

      but a "religious" leader can get

      away with these lies and distortions

      while the followers, on the other

      hand, are seen as delusional.



      Of course, when the EK believers

      or followers have their own experiences

      with really convincing stories (that

      have to fall within the guidelines and

      rules/laws that Klemp has established

      of course) they feel that they are

      right on track. Those outside of the

      influence of this specific religious

      dogma see these ECKists as fanatical

      and delusional cultists.



      This is another reason as to why

      Twitchell had to create a lineage

      of Ancient EK Masters for further

      validation of his own position.

      It sounds more convincing doesn't

      it, and other religions have a similar

      lineage to prove their validation

      as well. Thus, the Eckist has company,

      while feeling special. Twit copied

      everything... not just words... dogma

      too! Klemp has learned his Black Magic

      and deceptions from a true master

      of another sort!



      After all, the
      "Mahanta" position

      wasn't created until Twit used

      this title the first time in print

      in the January 1, 1969 Wisdom

      Notes. [Mahanta consciousness

      was used one time (pg.39) in

      "The Flute of God"] PT had to

      position himself beyond reproach

      (like the Pope) and at the very

      Top due to the criticisms he was

      receiving from Kirpal's U.S. followers

      and competition from former

      ECKist John-Rogers, as well as,

      critics within Eckankar because

      PT reneged on his "Five Year

      Plan," in late 1968, to turn over

      the EK leadership to another.



      What's this all mean to ECKists

      today? Well, since Rebazar was

      a lie (and was a substitution for

      Kirpal) it means that Twitchell

      wasn't really a "Master" and,

      especially, wasn't a "Mahanta!"



      Thus, Darwin Gross and Harold

      Klemp aren't what they have

      claimed either! There are no

      "ECK[ankar] Masters," except

      in the imaginations of the needy

      and fearful followers of this

      small religious (feel good) belief

      system that Klemp is recreating

      to look more and more Lutheran!



      Prometheus



      Etznab wrote: Twice now in history

      it happened where a "Living Master"

      (for which Rebazar Tarzs was the

      "Torchbearer") died without appointing

      a successor (so it seems). Once when

      Paul Twitchell died in September 1971.

      And again whe
      n Darwin Gross died

      in March of 2008. (Paul Marche was

      reportedly fired from A.T.O.M. by Darwin

      Gross before he died. This may, or

      may not be true. I haven't verified

      it yet.)



      prometheus wrote:

      >

      > Shamus-i-Tabriz seems to be the only

      > "ECK MASTER" that is, blatantly, stolen

      > from another religion!

      >

      > Here's a site that has info on EK Master

      > Shams (Rumi's Master)!

      >

      http://www.shamsitabriz.net/shamsitabriz.html

      >

      > It's interesting that Klemp (and Eckankar)

      > claim Shams as one of their ECK Masters

      > when Shams followed Islam... as did Rumi.

      >

      > Klemp states in his "Autobiography of

      > a Modern Prophet" (page 385) that ISLAM

      > is a 4th MENTAL Plane Religion and, thus,

      > the "God" they follow is actually SATAN

      > (KAL)!

      >

      > The one Holy Book of ECKankar, the

      > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book 2 (index)

      > shows that The KAL is, ALSO, the DEVIL

      > and/or SATAN. And, he rules the lower

      > worlds or planes (i.e. Etheric, MENTAL,

      > Causal, Astral, and Physical).

      >

      > PT's Shariyat, Book One, mentions that

      > Shams is an ECK Master.

      >

      > Klemp states in his ECKankar Lexicon

      > that Shamus-i-Tabriz was a Mahanta

      > and LEM. Then, in his Autobiography

      > HK
      has Shams following SATAN or the

      > DEVIL (KAL) via ISLAM!

      >

      >

      > prometheus wrote:

      > >

      > > Here's a site that is using Kata Daki

      > > to sell its wares just as Eckankar is!

      > >

      http://www.ascendedmastersspeak.com/AL.htm

      > >

      > > prometheus wrote:

      > > >

      > > > Hello Etznab and All,

      > > > It seems that seeing Rebazar "before"

      > > > finding Eckankar, now, has become

      > > > more (and less) believable!

      > > >

      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html

      > > >

      > > > Besides, I always wondered about these

      > > > people who claimed to have seen EK

      > > > Masters before joining Eckankar. They

      > > > were "zero" initiates... why believe them!

      > > > Many H.I.s (5-7) haven't "seen" Rebazar

      > > > on the "inner" (or elsewhere) even today!

      > >

      > > > BTW- EK newbies NOW have a "1" on their

      > > > membership cards (for 1st initiation) versus

      > > > the "0" zero they once had! How many years

      > > > did that take Klemp to remedy?

      > > >

      > > > Plus, isn't there such a thing as

      > > > having 20/20 hindsight, or of

      > > > mistakes-in-identity? And, people

      > > >
      ; rationalize and use wishful thinking

      > > > via the use of an overactive imagination

      > > > when it comes to seeing Twitchell's

      > > > fake Masters!

      > > >

      > > > Then, there are the delusional EKies

      > > > with mental imbalances influenced by

      > > > their own self-hypnosis factors! And,

      > > > some are outright liars like Klemp!

      > > > If Christianity and other religions

      > > > have dishonest power hungry leaders,

      > > > as well as, their nut cases (fanatics, etc.),

      > > > and "miracles" then Eckankar can too!

      > > > Why can't EKists say what they feel

      > > > and just voice their opinions that these

      > > > newbies who have "seen" Rebazar prior

      > > > to Eckankar are full of crap.

      > > >

      Here's a site that is here, on ESA, in the LINKS:

      http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm8.html

      > > >

      > > > Here's more info on the Phony EK Master,

      > > > REBAZAR TARZS, in these PDF LINKS on ESA:

      > > > [click "pdf" in the box to the left]

      > > >

      #Neville Goddard--"The Power of Awareness"

      http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfAwareness

      > > >

      > #Man Know Thyself--Used by PT for his

      > book (still used today) "Stranger By the River."
      =0
      A
      > http://www.archive.org/details/ManKnowThyself

      > > >

      #The Origins for Some of Twitchell's Masters

      http://tibeto-logic.blogspot.com/2007/07/katsupari-and-living-slick-factor.html

      > > >

      > > >

      > > > Also, let's not forget "The Tiger's Fang" incident

      > > > where Twitchell substituted Rebazar's name in

      > > > place of Kirpal Singh's name after Kirpal objected

      > > > about Twitchell's "exaggerations." Klemp mentions

      > > > that Kirpal returned the Tiger's Fang manuscript

      > > > to Twitchell around June 1966. Klemp has even

      > > > pointed out these negative traits of PT's (exaggerating

      > > > and twisting facts) on Eckankar. org. When PT

      > > > was 27 years old in1935 (born in 1908 according

      > > > to Klemp) and was trying to get into "Who's Who

      > > > in Kentucky!" How could Twit have made "a second

      > > > trip to India in 1954 where he met Rebazar" when

      > > > his "first" trip, in 1935, didn't happen because

      > > > PT had never traveled outside of the U.S. (according

      > > > to Klemp)!

      > > >

      > > > And, Twitchell, also, substituted the names

      > > > of fake Masters, like Rebazar, in place of the

      > > > names of his real Masters in "The Flute of God."

      > > >

      http:
      //www.archive.org/details/TheWayOfTheSaints

      > > >

      > > > Prometheus

      > > > p.s. As I've stated before - Klemp was burned

      > > > by the Rod of ECK Power circa 1990 and his Not

      > > > Letting Go of the Rod has caused his continued

      > > > EMF/EMR problems. HK has claimed, (his excuse)

      > > > that his health problems are caused by him becoming

      > > > the Holding Tank for the Karma of his Chelas.

      > > > However, why are Initiations still "slowed-down"

      > > > if that was true! Klemp is full of sh_t and excuses.

      > > > He has a death-grip on the Rod of EK Power!

      > > >

      > > > <etznab> wrote:

      > > > A.R.E. cross post.

      > > >

      http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/

      64494d7878174b6?hl=en#

      > > >

      > ****************************************

      > > >

      > > > How many paths now is Rebazar Tarzs

      > > > the "Torchbearer" for?

      > > >

      > > > Let's see.

      > > >

      > > > Eckankar

      > > >

      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html

      > > >

      > > > A.T.O.M.

      > > >

      http://atom.org/

      > > >

      > > > Dhunami

      > > >

      http://atomdoers.org/DhunMasters.html0D

      > > >

      > > > That's three that I know of. Not saying

      > > > there aren't more that I haven't seen yet.

      > > >

      > > > Twice now in history it happened where

      > > > a "Living Master" (for which Rebazar Tarzs

      > > > was the "Torchbearer") died without appointing

      > > > a successor (so it seems). Once when Paul

      > > > Twitchell died in September 1971. And again

      > > > when Darwin Gross died in March of 2008.

      > > > (Paul Marche was reportedly fired from A.T.O.M.

      > > > by Darwin Gross before he died. This may,

      > > > or may not be true. I haven't verified it yet.)

      > > >

      > > > According to history I've seen, Gail Twitchell

      > > > appointed Paul Twitchell's successor (Darwin

      > > > Gross) in Oct. 1971 For the A.T.O.M. site, it

      > > > appears to show "Ancient Teachings of the

      > > > Masters LLC is wholly owned by The Darwin

      > > > Gross Trust." The Events page says "Stay tuned

      > > > for future events...."

      > > >

      > > > I forgot to follow up in October last year

      > > > what A.T.O.M. did at their seminar about

      > > > a "Living Master". It looks like there isn't

      > > > a "Living Master" yet. I could be wrong.



      > > >

      > > > This is all interesting history, IMO, about

      > > > Rebazar Tarzs and a number of other Masters.

      > > > How many different paths are these Masters

      > > > supporting now? How many different"Living

      > > > Masters"?

      > > >

      > > > Hmm... Are these Masters really doing all

      > > > this? Or is it "organized religion", etc. that

      > > > is really behind it?

      > > >

      > > > All valid (and important questions) in my

      > > > opinion. For the record.

      > > >

      > > > Etznab
    • etznab@aol.com
      Maybe some of these things have been con- firmed. I don t know. Has anyone here called the main office at Eckankar and asked them whether such things were
      Message 2 of 3 , Aug 31 5:38 PM
        "Maybe some of these things have been con-
        firmed. I don't know. Has anyone here called
        the main office at Eckankar and asked them
        whether such things were true? I wonder what
        have been the official responses. And lately."

        In hindsight I realize those questions were
        not "all" totally fair, or even necessary.

        I thought about Ford Johnson's open letters
        to Harold Klemp years ago and went back to
        read them.

        Ford already asked most of the questions I
        think most people would ask today. Those who
        are curious, at least. What was Ford's answer?

        ******************************************************

        The third paragraph in the 1st open letter was
        interesting, I thought.

        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/FirstOpenLetter.aspx

        Later in that letter Ford writes:

        "But, if there is anything in Confessions that you,
        the Board, or the management of Eckankar regard
        as untrue, misstated or inaccurate, which bears on
        the ultimate veracity of Eckankar, I urge you to bring
        it forward."

        And the 2nd-last paragraph:

        "Perhaps you will finish what you started in your 1980’s
        talks when you began to reveal the truth about Paul
        Twitchell. Obviously you did not go far enough. Instead,
        both you and Darwin Gross settled into Paul’s mythology,
        perpetuating and reinforcing his fabrications. I know how
        difficult it would be to remove the lies in Eckankar — ex-
        tensively detailed in Confessions 0 and strip it of the dis-
        tortions of truth that mislead soul. However, I believe that
        Eckankar could survive the cleaning. Not in the same form
        that it is today, but in a purer form that accomplishes what
        all paths to God should; to teach, to empower and then to
        set souls free to realize and experience their oneness with
        ALL THAT IS."

        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/FirstOpenLetter.aspx

        The second letter begins with:

        "It has now been about eight months since my original
        open letter to you at which time I outlined my reasons
        for writing Confessions of a God Seeker and developing
        the New Spiritual Paradigm, which emerged from the
        experiences chronicled in that book. Since that time,
        we have heard from numerous Eckists and former-
        Eckists hopeful that Eckankar would either acknow-
        ledge the deception and remove it from the Eckankar
        works or correct the record and reveal the fallacy in the
        facts presented in Confessions. It is now clear that you
        and the leadership of Eckankar have no intention of
        truthfully removing or even acknowledging the historical
        fabrication, spiritual deception and insidious curses that
        are rampant throughout the Eckankar works. [....]"

        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/SecondOpenLetter.aspx

        So it looks to me that most of the questions have
        already been asked. What I don't know is how every
        person who asks such questions is answered. I only
        know what have been the answers I got when doing
        my own resear
        ch and asking my own questions - for
        the most part on the Net, in newsgroups or on bulletin
        boards. However, I have not myself approached the
        main office, or wrote a personal letter to Harold about
        these issues. I consider it potentially risky to do so,
        at this point.

        There was a section I remember from either Ford's
        book, or site, that talked about "religions". Something
        to the effect that they didn't have to tell the truth like
        a person is expected to do in a court of law. I haven't
        located the exact quote yet, but maybe someone
        else knows what I'm referring to.

        Once Eckankar changed from a company to a non-
        profit organized religion around 1970, I think Ford had
        suggested that granted a little more liberty to stretch
        the truth, like religions do. These are my words though
        and not his. I will have to find the exact quote and con-
        text to better illustrate what I'm talking about. I think it
        bears on the question I earlier asked about "what just-
        ification".

        Etznab






        -----Original Message-----
        From: etznab@...
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 6:33 pm
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] PT's "Rebazar - Torchbearer"
        Ruse

         






        Prometheus,



        That's really something. IMO. If even half of it

        is true, that doesn't look good to me. However,

        most of what you put forward is not what I see=0
        D

        coming from Eckankar.org.



        Are you saying Eckankar promotes history

        that is knows isn't true? I've wondered about

        this a lot myself. What is the justification for

        substituting for history a myth?



        From the position of Eckankar Inc., I mean,

        if it knowingly has mythologized the truth and

        some of its history, what do you imagine is the

        justification on the part of the organization for

        doing that?



        To look at it another way, say it happens in

        the future that a lot of what you wrote turns up

        to be proven beyond a doubt. What would be

        the justification - on the part of Eckankar - if it

        refused to admit it were true?



        I'm trying to get an idea how, if a lot of what

        has come over the Net in the past decade is

        true, that it's still not being publicly confirmed

        by Eckankar Inc. as true?



        Maybe some of these things have been con-

        firmed. I don't know. Has anyone here called

        the main office at Eckankar and asked them

        whether such things were true? I wonder what

        have been the official responses. And lately.



        Etznab



        -----Original Message-----

        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:53 pm

        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] PT's=2

        0"Rebazar - Torchbearer" Ruse


        0A
         



        Hello Etznab and All,



        Paul Twitchell's real Master



        was Kirpal Singh and not



        Rebazar. Even Klemp mentions



        Kirpal's name 15 times (in



        the PT info on Eckankar.org)



        versus Sudar's name 4 times.



        Sudar Singh was another lie



        and Klemp knows it! "Sudar,"



        the 970th LEM, was actually



        Kirpal Singh, except, he wasn't



        any L "E" M, but he was a living



        Master (of Ruhani Satsang).



        Sawan Singh, Kirpal's Master,



        died without naming a successor



        and this caused a riff within



        Radhasoami and caused Kirpal



        to start his own sect/faction -



        Ruhani Satsang. No fake Master



        or "Torchbearer" was needed



        because Kirpal's Mastership



        was obvious to all who met



        him.



        However, this was not the case



        with the professional liar Twitchell



        because his past and present



        behaviours were tainted with



        on-going deceptions.



        Thus, after PT fell out of Grace



        with Sri Kirpal Singh, due mostly



        to his exaggerations in "The Tiger's



        Fang" manuscript, it was now



        necessary for Twit to recreate



        himself. He did this by creating





        the "invisible" 500 year old EK



        Master Rebazar Tarzs as the



        "Torchbearer" of EK (the Holy



        Spirit). PT did this in order to



        pass the "Rod of EK Power" to



        himself!



        And,

        after all, who can "disprove"



        an "invisible" Master! When people



        claim to have seen RT in their dreams



        (Law of Facsimiles) and imagine



        they have seen him on the streets,



        or in their bedrooms dictating lessons



        this becomes their proof... even



        though it's a lie! Normal people



        would be seen as crazy or delusional,



        but a "religious" leader can get



        away with these lies and distortions



        while the followers, on the other



        hand, are seen as delusional.



        Of course, when the EK believers



        or followers have their own experiences



        with really convincing stories (that



        have to fall within the guidelines and



        rules/laws that Klemp has established



        of course) they feel that they are



        right on track. Those outside of the



        influence of this specific religious



        dogma see these ECKists as fanatical



        and delusional cultists.



        This is another reason as to why



        Twitchell had to create a
        lineage



        of Ancient EK Masters for further



        validation of his own position.



        It sounds more convincing doesn't



        it, and other religions have a similar



        lineage to prove their validation



        as well. Thus, the Eckist has company,



        while feeling special. Twit copied



        everything... not just words... dogma



        too! Klemp has learned his Black Magic



        and deceptions from a true master



        of another sort!



        After all, the

        "Mahanta" position



        wasn't created until Twit used



        this title the first time in print



        in the January 1, 1969 Wisdom



        Notes. [Mahanta consciousness



        was used one time (pg.39) in



        "The Flute of God"] PT had to



        position himself beyond reproach



        (like the Pope) and at the very



        Top due to the criticisms he was



        receiving from Kirpal's U.S. followers



        and competition from former



        ECKist John-Rogers, as well as,



        critics within Eckankar because



        PT reneged on his "Five Year



        Plan," in late 1968, to turn over



        the EK leadership to another.



        What's this all mean to ECKists



        today? Well, since Rebazar was



        a lie (and was a substitution for


        =0
        D
        Kirpal) it means that Twitchell



        wasn't really a "Master" and,



        especially, wasn't a "Mahanta!"



        Thus, Darwin Gross and Harold



        Klemp aren't what they have



        claimed either! There are no



        "ECK[ankar] Masters," except



        in the imaginations of the needy



        and fearful followers of this



        small religious (feel good) belief



        system that Klemp is recreating



        to look more and more Lutheran!



        Prometheus



        Etznab wrote: Twice now in history



        it happened where a "Living Master"



        (for which Rebazar Tarzs was the



        "Torchbearer") died without appointing



        a successor (so it seems). Once when



        Paul Twitchell died in September 1971.



        And again whe

        n Darwin Gross died



        in March of 2008. (Paul Marche was



        reportedly fired from A.T.O.M. by Darwin



        Gross before he died. This may, or



        may not be true. I haven't verified



        it yet.)



        prometheus wrote:



        >



        > Shamus-i-Tabriz seems to be the only



        > "ECK MASTER" that is, blatantly, stolen



        > from another religion!



        >



        > Here's a site that has info on EK Master



        > Shams (Rumi's Master)!


        0D
        >



        http://www.shamsitabriz.net/shamsitabriz.html



        >



        > It's interesting that Klemp (and Eckankar)



        > claim Shams as one of their ECK Masters



        > when Shams followed Islam... as did Rumi.



        >



        > Klemp states in his "Autobiography of



        > a Modern Prophet" (page 385) that ISLAM



        > is a 4th MENTAL Plane Religion and, thus,



        > the "God" they follow is actually SATAN



        > (KAL)!



        >



        > The one Holy Book of ECKankar, the



        > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book 2 (index)



        > shows that The KAL is, ALSO, the DEVIL



        > and/or SATAN. And, he rules the lower



        > worlds or planes (i.e. Etheric, MENTAL,



        > Causal, Astral, and Physical).



        >



        > PT's Shariyat, Book One, mentions that



        > Shams is an ECK Master.



        >



        > Klemp states in his ECKankar Lexicon



        > that Shamus-i-Tabriz was a Mahanta



        > and LEM. Then, in his Autobiography



        > HK

        has Shams following SATAN or the



        > DEVIL (KAL) via ISLAM!



        >



        >



        > prometheus wrote:



        > >



        > > Here's a site that is using Kata Daki





        > > to sell its wares just as Eckankar is!



        > >



        http://www.ascendedmastersspeak.com/AL.htm



        > >



        > > prometheus wrote:



        > > >



        > > > Hello Etznab and All,



        > > > It seems that seeing Rebazar "before"



        > > > finding Eckankar, now, has become



        > > > more (and less) believable!



        > > >



        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html



        > > >



        > > > Besides, I always wondered about these



        > > > people who claimed to have seen EK



        > > > Masters before joining Eckankar. They



        > > > were "zero" initiates... why believe them!



        > > > Many H.I.s (5-7) haven't "seen" Rebazar



        > > > on the "inner" (or elsewhere) even today!



        > >



        > > > BTW- EK newbies NOW have a "1" on their



        > > > membership cards (for 1st initiation) versus



        > > > the "0" zero they once had! How many years



        > > > did that take Klemp to remedy?



        > > >



        > > > Plus, isn't there such a thing as



        > > > having 20/20 hindsight, or of



        > > > m
        istakes-in-identity? And, people



        > > >

        ; rationalize and use wishful thinking



        > > > via the use of an overactive imagination



        > > > when it comes to seeing Twitchell's



        > > > fake Masters!



        > > >



        > > > Then, there are the delusional EKies



        > > > with mental imbalances influenced by



        > > > their own self-hypnosis factors! And,



        > > > some are outright liars like Klemp!



        > > > If Christianity and other religions



        > > > have dishonest power hungry leaders,



        > > > as well as, their nut cases (fanatics, etc.),



        > > > and "miracles" then Eckankar can too!



        > > > Why can't EKists say what they feel



        > > > and just voice their opinions that these



        > > > newbies who have "seen" Rebazar prior



        > > > to Eckankar are full of crap.



        > > >



        Here's a site that is here, on ESA, in the LINKS:



        http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm8.html



        > > >



        > > > Here's more info on the Phony EK Master,



        > > > REBAZAR TARZS, in these PDF LINKS on ESA:



        > > > [click "pdf" in t
        he box to the left]



        > > >



        #Neville Goddard--"The Power of Awareness"



        http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfAwareness



        > > >



        > #Man Know Thyself--Used by PT for his



        > book (still used today) "Stranger By the River."

        =0

        A

        > http://www.archive.org/details/ManKnowThyself



        > > >



        #The Origins for Some of Twitchell's Masters



        http://tibeto-logic.blogspot.com/2007/07/katsupari-and-living-slick-factor.html



        > > >



        > > >



        > > > Also, let's not forget "The Tiger's Fang" incident



        > > > where Twitchell substituted Rebazar's name in



        > > > place of Kirpal Singh's name after Kirpal objected



        > > > about Twitchell's "exaggerations." Klemp mentions



        > > > that Kirpal returned the Tiger's Fang manuscript



        > > > to Twitchell around June 1966. Klemp has even



        > > > pointed out these negative traits of PT's (exaggerating



        > > > and twisting facts) on Eckankar. org. When PT



        > > > was 27 years old in1935 (born in 1908 according



        > > > to Klemp) and was trying to get into "Who's Who



        > > > in Kentucky!" How could Twit have made "a second



        > > &
        gt; trip to India in 1954 where he met Rebazar" when



        > > > his "first" trip, in 1935, didn't happen because



        > > > PT had never traveled outside of the U.S. (according



        > > > to Klemp)!



        > > >



        > > > And, Twitchell, also, substituted the names



        > > > of fake Masters, like Rebazar, in place of the



        > > > names of his real Masters in "The Flute of God."



        > > >



        http:

        //www.archive.org/details/TheWayOfTheSaints



        > > >



        > > > Prometheus



        > > > p.s. As I've stated before - Klemp was burned



        > > > by the Rod of ECK Power circa 1990 and his Not



        > > > Letting Go of the Rod has caused his continued



        > > > EMF/EMR problems. HK has claimed, (his excuse)



        > > > that his health problems are caused by him becoming



        > > > the Holding Tank for the Karma of his Chelas.



        > > > However, why are Initiations still "slowed-down"



        > > > if that was true! Klemp is full of sh_t and excuses.



        > > > He has a death-grip on the Rod of EK Power!



        > > >



        > > > <etznab> wrote:



        > >20> A.R.E. cross post.



        > > >



        http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/



        64494d7878174b6?hl=en#



        > > >



        > ****************************************



        > > >



        > > > How many paths now is Rebazar Tarzs



        > > > the "Torchbearer" for?



        > > >



        > > > Let's see.



        > > >



        > > > Eckankar



        > > >



        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html



        > > >



        > > > A.T.O.M.



        > > >



        http://atom.org/



        > > >



        > > > Dhunami



        > > >



        http://atomdoers.org/DhunMasters.html0D



        > > >



        > > > That's three that I know of. Not saying



        > > > there aren't more that I haven't seen yet.



        > > >



        > > > Twice now in history it happened where



        > > > a "Living Master" (for which Rebazar Tarzs



        > > > was the "Torchbearer") died without appointing



        > > > a successor (so it seems). Once when Paul



        > > > Twitchell died in September 1971. And again



        > > > w
        hen Darwin Gross died in March of 2008.



        > > > (Paul Marche was reportedly fired from A.T.O.M.



        > > > by Darwin Gross before he died. This may,



        > > > or may not be true. I haven't verified it yet.)



        > > >



        > > > According to history I've seen, Gail Twitchell



        > > > appointed Paul Twitchell's successor (Darwin



        > > > Gross) in Oct. 1971 For the A.T.O.M. site, it



        > > > appears to show "Ancient Teachings of the



        > > > Masters LLC is wholly owned by The Darwin



        > > > Gross Trust." The Events page says "Stay tuned



        > > > for future events...."



        > > >



        > > > I forgot to follow up in October last year



        > > > what A.T.O.M. did at their seminar about



        > > > a "Living Master". It looks like there isn't



        > > > a "Living Master" yet. I could be wrong.



        > > >



        > > > This is all interesting history, IMO, about



        > > > Rebazar Tarzs and a number of other Masters.



        > > > How many different paths are these Masters



        > > > supporting now? How many different"Living



        > > > Masters"?



        0A> > >



        > > > Hmm... Are these Masters really doing all



        > > > this? Or is it "organized religion", etc. that



        > > > is really behind it?



        > > >



        > > > All valid (and important questions) in my



        > > > opinion. For the record.



        > > >



        > > > Etznab
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Etznab, It sounds like you re playing Devil s advocate for Klemp. Most of what I ve mentioned is factual and provable. I m, also, thinking that most of
        Message 3 of 3 , Aug 31 6:12 PM
          Hello Etznab,
          It sounds like you're playing Devil's
          advocate for Klemp. Most of what
          I've mentioned is factual and provable.
          I'm, also, thinking that most of your
          questions are rhetorical.

          Why else does Klemp mention Kirpal's
          name 4 Times More than he does
          Sudar's name (a former LEM). And,
          Klemp mentions that Kirpal had PT's
          The Tiger's Fang manuscript and that
          they had a falling out.

          Klemp, also, said that Twit "exaggerated"
          and "twisted facts." Also, Klemp mentions
          PT's age 27 (1935) when he was lying
          for Who's Who in Kentucky and that
          PT had never been out of Kentucky,
          but claimed he had been to India.
          Thus, there was no "second trip"
          in 1954 to meet Rebazar.

          It's like Marman pointed out about
          PT's Paris, France claim where Twitch
          had actually visited his sister in Paris,
          Kentucky... thus, there was NO trip to
          India after this visit to Paris... Kentucky.
          So, what other facts need to be proved...
          just connect the dots!

          Prometheus

          etznab wrote:

          Prometheus,
          >
          That's really something. IMO. If even half of it
          is true, that doesn't look good to me. However,
          most of what you put forward is not what I see
          coming from Eckankar.org.
          >
          Are you saying Eckankar promotes history
          that is knows isn't true? I've wondered about
          this a lot myself. What is the justification for
          substituting for history a myth?
          >
          From the position of Eckankar Inc., I mean,
          if it knowingly has mythologized the truth and
          some of its history, what do you imagine is the
          justification on the part of the organization for
          doing that?
          >
          To look at it another way, say it happens in
          the future that a lot of what you wrote turns up
          to be proven beyond a doubt. What would be
          the justification - on the part of Eckankar - if it
          refused to admit it were true?
          >
          I'm trying to get an idea how, if a lot of what
          has come over the Net in the past decade is
          true, that it's still not being publicly confirmed
          by Eckankar Inc. as true?
          >
          Maybe some of these things have been con-
          firmed. I don't know. Has anyone here called
          the main office at Eckankar and asked them
          whether such things were true? I wonder what
          have been the official responses. And lately.
          >
          Etznab

          Hello Etznab and All,
          Paul Twitchell's real Master
          was Kirpal Singh and not
          Rebazar. Even Klemp mentions
          Kirpal's name 15 times (in
          the PT info on Eckankar.org)
          versus Sudar's name 4 times.
          Sudar Singh was another lie
          and Klemp knows it! "Sudar,"
          the 970th LEM, was actually
          Kirpal Singh, except, he wasn't
          any L "E" M, but he was a living
          Master (of Ruhani Satsang).

          Sawan Singh, Kirpal's Master,
          died without naming a successor
          and this caused a riff within
          Radhasoami and caused Kirpal
          to start his own sect/faction -
          Ruhani Satsang. No fake Master
          or "Torchbearer" was needed
          because Kirpal's Mastership
          was obvious to all who met
          him.

          However, this was not the case
          with the professional liar Twitchell
          because his past and present
          behaviours were tainted with
          on-going deceptions.

          Thus, after PT fell out of Grace
          with Sri Kirpal Singh, due mostly
          to his exaggerations in "The Tiger's
          Fang" manuscript, it was now
          necessary for Twit to recreate
          himself. He did this by creating
          the "invisible" 500 year old EK
          Master Rebazar Tarzs as the
          "Torchbearer" of EK (the Holy
          Spirit). PT did this in order to
          pass the "Rod of EK Power" to
          himself!

          And, after all, who can "disprove"
          an "invisible" Master! When people
          claim to have seen RT in their dreams
          (Law of Facsimiles) and imagine
          they have seen him on the streets,
          or in their bedrooms dictating lessons
          this becomes their proof... even
          though it's a lie! Normal people
          would be seen as crazy or delusional,
          but a "religious" leader can get
          away with these lies and distortions
          while the followers, on the other
          hand, are seen as delusional fanatics
          and zealots.

          Of course, when the EK believers
          or followers have their own experiences
          with really convincing stories (that
          have to fall within the guidelines and
          rules/laws that Klemp has established
          of course) they feel that they are
          right on track. Those outside of the
          influence of this specific religious
          dogma see these ECKists as fanatical
          and delusional cultists.

          This is another reason as to why
          Twitchell had to create a lineage
          of Ancient EK Masters for further
          validation of his own position.
          It sounds more convincing doesn't
          it, and other religions have a similar
          lineage to prove their validation
          as well. Thus, the Eckist has company,
          while feeling special. Twit copied
          everything... not just words... dogma
          too! Klemp has learned his Black Magic
          and deceptions from a true master
          of another sort!

          After all, the "Mahanta" position
          wasn't created until Twit used
          this title the first time in print
          in the January 1, 1969 Wisdom
          Notes. [Mahanta consciousness
          was used one time (pg.39) in
          "The Flute of God"] PT had to
          position himself beyond reproach
          (like the Pope) and at the very
          Top due to the criticisms he was
          receiving from Kirpal's U.S. followers
          and competition from former
          ECKist John-Rogers, as well as,
          critics within Eckankar because
          PT reneged on his "Five Year
          Plan," in late 1968, to turn over
          the EK leadership to another.

          What's this all mean to ECKists
          today? Well, since Rebazar was
          a lie (and was a substitution for
          Kirpal) it means that Twitchell
          wasn't really a "Master" and,
          especially, wasn't a "Mahanta!"

          Thus, Darwin Gross and Harold
          Klemp aren't what they have
          claimed either! There are no
          "ECK[ankar] Masters," except
          in the imaginations of the needy
          and fearful followers of this
          small religious (feel good) belief
          system that Klemp is recreating
          to look more and more Lutheran!

          Prometheus

          Etznab wrote: Twice now in history
          it happened where a "Living Master"
          (for which Rebazar Tarzs was the
          "Torchbearer") died without appointing
          a successor (so it seems). Once when
          Paul Twitchell died in September 1971.
          And again when Darwin Gross died
          in March of 2008. (Paul Marche was
          reportedly fired from A.T.O.M. by Darwin
          Gross before he died. This may, or
          may not be true. I haven't verified
          it yet.)

          prometheus wrote:

          Shamus-i-Tabriz seems to be the only
          "ECK MASTER" that is, blatantly, stolen
          from another religion!

          Here's a site that has info on EK Master
          Shams (Rumi's Master)!

          http://www.shamsitabriz.net/shamsitabriz.html

          It's interesting that Klemp (and Eckankar)
          claim Shams as one of their ECK Masters
          when Shams followed Islam... as did Rumi.

          Klemp states in his "Autobiography of
          a Modern Prophet" (page 385) that ISLAM
          is a 4th MENTAL Plane Religion and, thus,
          the "God" they follow is actually SATAN
          (KAL)!

          The one Holy Book of ECKankar, the
          Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book 2 (index)
          shows that the DEVIL and SATAN is
          the KAL! And, according to Eckankar
          KAL rules the lower worlds or planes
          (i.e. Etheric, MENTAL, Causal, Astral,
          and Physical).

          PT's Shariyat, Book One, mentions that
          Shams is an ECK Master.

          Klemp states in his ECKankar Lexicon
          that Shamus-i-Tabriz was a Mahanta
          and LEM. Then, in his Autobiography
          HK has Shams following SATAN or the
          DEVIL (KAL) via ISLAM!


          prometheus wrote:

          Here's a site that is using Kata Daki
          to sell its wares just as Eckankar is!

          http://www.ascendedmastersspeak.com/AL.htm

          prometheus wrote:

          Hello Etznab and All,
          It seems that seeing Rebazar "before"
          finding Eckankar, now, has become
          more (and less) believable!

          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html

          Besides, I always wondered about these
          people who claimed to have seen EK
          Masters before joining Eckankar. They
          were "zero" initiates... why believe them!

          It's interesting that many H.I.s (5-7)
          haven't been "tricked" to have "seen"
          Rebazar on the "inner" (or elsewhere)
          even today! Yet, they, too, believe...
          sort of/kind of!

          BTW- EK newbies NOW have a "1" on their
          membership cards (for 1st initiation) versus
          the "0" zero they once had! How many years
          did that take Klemp to remedy?

          Plus, isn't there such a thing as
          having 20/20 hindsight, or of
          mistakes-in-identity? And, people
          rationalize and use wishful thinking
          via the use of an overactive imagination
          when it comes to seeing Twitchell's
          fake Masters!

          Then, there are the delusional EKies
          with mental imbalances influenced by
          their own self-hypnosis factors! And,
          some are outright liars like Klemp!
          If Christianity and other religions
          have dishonest power hungry leaders,
          as well as, their nut cases (fanatics, etc.),
          and "miracles" then Eckankar can too!
          Why can't EKists say what they feel
          and just voice their opinions that these
          newbies who have "seen" Rebazar prior
          to Eckankar are full of crap.

          Here's a site that is here, on ESA, in the LINKS:
          http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm8.html

          Here's more info on the Phony EK Master,
          REBAZAR TARZS, in these PDF LINKS on ESA:
          [click "pdf" in the box to the left]

          #Neville Goddard--"The Power of Awareness"
          http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfAwareness

          #Man Know Thyself--Used by PT for his
          book (still used today) "Stranger By the River."
          http://www.archive.org/details/ManKnowThyself

          #The Origins for Some of Twitchell's Masters
          http://tibeto-logic.blogspot.com/2007/07/katsupari-and-living-slick-factor.html

          Also, let's not forget "The Tiger's Fang" incident
          where Twitchell substituted Rebazar's name in
          place of Kirpal Singh's name after Kirpal objected
          about Twitchell's "exaggerations." Klemp mentions
          that Kirpal returned the Tiger's Fang manuscript
          to Twitchell around June 1966. Klemp has even
          pointed out these negative traits of PT's (exaggerating
          and twisting facts) on Eckankar. org. When PT
          was 27 years old in 1935 (born in 1908 according
          to Klemp) and was trying to get into "Who's Who
          in Kentucky!" How could Twit have made "a second
          trip to India in 1954 where he met Rebazar" when
          his "first" trip, in 1935, didn't happen because
          PT had never traveled outside of the U.S. (according
          to Klemp)!

          And, Twitchell, also, substituted the names
          of fake Masters, like Rebazar, in place of the
          names of his real Masters in "The Flute of God."

          http://www.archive.org/details/TheWayOfTheSaints

          Prometheus
          p.s. As I've stated before - Klemp was burned
          by the Rod of ECK Power circa 1990 and his Not
          Letting Go of the Rod has caused his continued
          EMF/EMR problems. HK has claimed, (his excuse)
          that his health problems are caused by him becoming
          the Holding Tank for the Karma of his Chelas.
          However, why are Initiations still "slowed-down"
          if that was true! Klemp is full of sh_t and excuses.
          He has a death-grip on the Rod of EK Power!

          <etznab> wrote:
          A.R.E. cross post.

          http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/
          64494d7878174b6?hl=en#

          ****************************************

          How many paths now is Rebazar Tarzs
          the "Torchbearer" for?

          Let's see.

          Eckankar

          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html

          A.T.O.M.

          http://atom.org/

          Dhunami

          http://atomdoers.org/DhunMasters.html

          That's three that I know of. Not saying
          there aren't more that I haven't seen yet.

          Twice now in history it happened where
          a "Living Master" (for which Rebazar Tarzs
          was the "Torchbearer") died without appointing
          a successor (so it seems). Once when Paul
          Twitchell died in September 1971. And again
          when Darwin Gross died in March of 2008.
          (Paul Marche was reportedly fired from A.T.O.M.
          by Darwin Gross before he died. This may,
          or may not be true. I haven't verified it yet.)

          According to history I've seen, Gail Twitchell
          appointed Paul Twitchell's successor (Darwin
          Gross) in Oct. 1971 For the A.T.O.M. site, it
          appears to show "Ancient Teachings of the
          Masters LLC is wholly owned by The Darwin
          Gross Trust." The Events page says "Stay tuned
          for future events...."

          I forgot to follow up in October last year
          what A.T.O.M. did at their seminar about
          a "Living Master". It looks like there isn't
          a "Living Master" yet. I could be wrong.

          This is all interesting history, IMO, about
          Rebazar Tarzs and a number of other Masters.
          How many different paths are these Masters
          supporting now? How many different"Living
          Masters"?

          Hmm... Are these Masters really doing all
          this? Or is it "organized religion", etc. that
          is really behind it?

          All valid (and important questions) in my
          opinion. For the record.

          Etznab
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