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initiations

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  • jjamie1977
    i have been reading here about the ways in which the eck organization determines whether or not an individual will be approved for the next initiation level,
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 6, 2005
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      i have been reading here about the ways in which the eck organization
      determines whether or not an individual will be approved for the next
      initiation level, promotion, etc etc.. my God; i cannot believe that
      i ever put myself in the position to be discussed, weighed, measured,
      and judged by a group of nimrods. the very idea that ANYONE has
      something to say about my spiritual life, or progress, or lack thereof,
      is utterly abhorrent. just ridiculous to the point of nausea.

      jamie....
    • mishmisha9
      Hi, Jamie! There are some eckists who remained 1st initiates a long time, because they didn t know that after two years of membership, they had to request the
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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        Hi, Jamie!

        There are some eckists who remained 1st initiates a long time,
        because they didn't know that after two years of membership, they
        had to request the 2nd initiation for themselves which would never
        be denied. All you had to do was call the ESC and tell them you were
        ready for the second and you got your pink slip in the mail. Of
        course you had to be a member in good standing which means you paid
        your membership for a minimum of two years, consectively. After that
        in order to advance in initiations, you had to be in good standing
        with paying your membership fees and getting in good with those
        higher initiates who would be judging you. Asking too many questions
        would create big road blocks on your spiritual path! I wasn't doing
        too good with this myself! : )

        Mish

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jjamie1977"
        <jjamie1977@y...> wrote:
        > i have been reading here about the ways in which the eck
        organization
        > determines whether or not an individual will be approved for the
        next
        > initiation level, promotion, etc etc.. my God; i cannot believe
        that
        > i ever put myself in the position to be discussed, weighed,
        measured,
        > and judged by a group of nimrods. the very idea that ANYONE has
        > something to say about my spiritual life, or progress, or lack
        thereof,
        > is utterly abhorrent. just ridiculous to the point of nausea.
        >
        > jamie....
      • jjamie1977
        ... were ... paid ... that ... standing ... questions ... doing ... believe ... thanks for the response, mish. this answers a puzzlement i had a long time ago:
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
          > Hi, Jamie!
          >
          > There are some eckists who remained 1st initiates a long time,
          > because they didn't know that after two years of membership, they
          > had to request the 2nd initiation for themselves which would never
          > be denied. All you had to do was call the ESC and tell them you
          were
          > ready for the second and you got your pink slip in the mail. Of
          > course you had to be a member in good standing which means you
          paid
          > your membership for a minimum of two years, consectively. After
          that
          > in order to advance in initiations, you had to be in good
          standing
          > with paying your membership fees and getting in good with those
          > higher initiates who would be judging you. Asking too many
          questions
          > would create big road blocks on your spiritual path! I wasn't
          doing
          > too good with this myself! : )
          >
          > Mish
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jjamie1977"
          > <jjamie1977@y...> wrote:
          > > i have been reading here about the ways in which the eck
          > organization
          > > determines whether or not an individual will be approved for the
          > next
          > > initiation level, promotion, etc etc.. my God; i cannot
          believe
          > that
          > > i ever put myself in the position to be discussed, weighed,
          > measured,
          > > and judged by a group of nimrods. the very idea that ANYONE has
          > > something to say about my spiritual life, or progress, or lack
          > thereof,
          > > is utterly abhorrent. just ridiculous to the point of nausea.
          > >
          > > jamie....

          ------------------------------------
          thanks for the response, mish. this answers a puzzlement i had a
          long time ago: during the time frame that i received my
          invitational fourth initiation letter, i was very little involved
          with the local eck community. i wasnt involved with any eck
          community whatsoever, doing no volunteering, not attending services,
          etc etc. at any rate, on one occassion i ran into an eckist from the
          local community, and i told her that i had gotten the letter. u
          should have seen the look on her face. her jaw dropped. it was quite
          awkward and embarrassing, her surprise was so obvious. this was a
          woman who lived and breathed the local eck community, who gave gave
          gave in every sense. at the time i thought she was so taken aback
          because she did not feel i was worthy of the initiation, not
          spiritually evolved enuff, and all such bullshit.

          now it is clear that she did not understand how i could get the
          initiation considering the fact that i wasnt doing my time, so to
          speak. i really think she believed that. what she didnt know was
          that i had a personal relationship with the RESA (no one knew, and
          he is no longer in eck). come to think of it, i never put that 2
          and 2 together either. i thought the mahanta had decided to give me
          the letter. dear me....

          jamie..
        • jjamie1977
          i had never considered the idea, prometheus, but giving only ONE initiation would have benefited eckankar. everyone would have felt more free to authentically
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 8, 2006
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            i had never considered the idea, prometheus, but giving only ONE
            initiation would have benefited eckankar. everyone would have felt
            more free to authentically learn from one another, rather
            than 'worshipping' an elite group within the community. the idea is
            that higher initiates have more to say, or more signigicant 'true'
            things to say. the problem is, some higher initiates are clearly
            assholes. when i once asked a RESA about an HI in our community, and
            complained of the HI's behavior, the RESA gave this explanation:

            "well, back in eck's earlier days many inititations had to be given so
            that the word of eck could be gotten out into the world." in this way,
            the RESA was dismissing the fact that this HI was a jerk with chips.

            jamie....
          • prometheus_973
            Yes, the one outer initiation into an Order is all that is needed. The proof is in the pudding in regard to demonstrating higher inner levels of consciousness
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 8, 2006
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              Yes, the one outer initiation into an Order is all that is needed.
              The proof is in the pudding in regard to demonstrating higher inner
              levels of consciousness on the Physical Plane.

              As far as that RESA's explanation... it seems she was making the
              excuse that some Eckists got their higher initiations before being
              ready, and this was (as she said) because the message of Eck needed
              to be spread to the unsuspecting masses. However, this would mean
              that Klemp and Peter and many others, including the RESA and this
              H.I., did not really deserve some of their earlier initiations
              either! Klemp tries to have it both ways. This RESA just didn't
              think it through to see the implications. Yet, this was the excuse
              that Klemp once used for H.I. bad behavior and incompetence, or when
              Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th! This excuse is still
              parroted by his loyal lackeys. However, the "one" initiation policy
              could have avoided much confusion, frustration, and pride. It's good
              that Twitchell didn't see Eckankar lasting this long! <smile>

              However, I've suggested to Klemp that he needs to make more 8ths
              into 9ths and most 7ths into 8ths and many 6ths into 7ths. He just
              needs to anounce this and give the 9ths a special pin to wear. That
              way everyone will know that they are 9ths and they won't have to be
              concerned about breaking the Law of Silence about the 9th and losing
              their initiation! It's so simple that he'll never do it will he! LOL!

              Prometheus


              jamie wrote:

              i had never considered the idea, prometheus, but giving only ONE
              initiation would have benefited eckankar. everyone would have felt
              more free to authentically learn from one another, rather
              than 'worshipping' an elite group within the community. the idea is
              that higher initiates have more to say, or more signigicant 'true'
              things to say. the problem is, some higher initiates are clearly
              assholes. when i once asked a RESA about an HI in our community,
              and
              complained of the HI's behavior, the RESA gave this explanation:

              "well, back in eck's earlier days many inititations had to be given
              so
              that the word of eck could be gotten out into the world." in this
              way,
              the RESA was dismissing the fact that this HI was a jerk with chips.

              jamie....
            • prometheus_973
              Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp! ... inner ... needed ... when ... policy ... good ...
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 8, 2006
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                Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983
                just before being kicked out by Klemp!

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Yes, the one outer initiation into an Order is all that is needed.
                > The proof is in the pudding in regard to demonstrating higher
                inner
                > levels of consciousness on the Physical Plane.
                >
                > As far as that RESA's explanation... it seems she was making the
                > excuse that some Eckists got their higher initiations before being
                > ready, and this was (as she said) because the message of Eck
                needed
                > to be spread to the unsuspecting masses. However, this would mean
                > that Klemp and Peter and many others, including the RESA and this
                > H.I., did not really deserve some of their earlier initiations
                > either! Klemp tries to have it both ways. This RESA just didn't
                > think it through to see the implications. Yet, this was the excuse
                > that Klemp once used for H.I. bad behavior and incompetence, or
                when
                > Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th! This excuse is still
                > parroted by his loyal lackeys. However, the "one" initiation
                policy
                > could have avoided much confusion, frustration, and pride. It's
                good
                > that Twitchell didn't see Eckankar lasting this long! <smile>
                >
                > However, I've suggested to Klemp that he needs to make more 8ths
                > into 9ths and most 7ths into 8ths and many 6ths into 7ths. He just
                > needs to anounce this and give the 9ths a special pin to wear.
                That
                > way everyone will know that they are 9ths and they won't have to
                be
                > concerned about breaking the Law of Silence about the 9th and
                losing
                > their initiation! It's so simple that he'll never do it will he!
                LOL!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > jamie wrote:
                >
                > i had never considered the idea, prometheus, but giving only ONE
                > initiation would have benefited eckankar. everyone would have
                felt
                > more free to authentically learn from one another, rather
                > than 'worshipping' an elite group within the community. the idea
                is
                > that higher initiates have more to say, or more signigicant 'true'
                > things to say. the problem is, some higher initiates are clearly
                > assholes. when i once asked a RESA about an HI in our community,
                > and
                > complained of the HI's behavior, the RESA gave this explanation:
                >
                > "well, back in eck's earlier days many inititations had to be
                given
                > so
                > that the word of eck could be gotten out into the world." in this
                > way,
                > the RESA was dismissing the fact that this HI was a jerk with
                chips.
                >
                > jamie....
                >
              • zzoey75
                Hey prometheus. Some time back there was a discussion here concerning eckankar initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember, can you tell me which
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 27, 2010
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                  Hey prometheus. Some time back there was a discussion here concerning eckankar initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember, can you tell me which initiations are considered entirely inner, and which are required to also have an outer initiation with an eck clergy?

                  My friend and I are curious about this.

                  Thanks, zoey
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Zoey, I can understand the confusion. Klemp likes to keep his flock off-balance and second guessing. Initiations more mental than anything via the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 30, 2010
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                    Hello Zoey,
                    I can understand the confusion. Klemp
                    likes to keep his flock off-balance and
                    second guessing. Initiations more mental
                    than anything via the imagination except
                    for one's physical membership card with
                    the number of one's plane of con. Oh, there
                    are also those physical "pink slips" too.

                    Basically, 1-9 are inner and outer,
                    10-11 are inner, 12 is inner and outer,
                    and 13-14 are inner.

                    [1-9]
                    In The Masters 4 Discourse, Lesson 2
                    is the following:

                    "Third, the final part of the Ninth
                    Initiation occurs in the physical
                    world."

                    [12th]
                    In Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon is this
                    on page 226:

                    "Voice of Akivasha. The oracle, until
                    the first of this century, at a craggy,
                    unexplored site called the Oracle of
                    Tirmer in the Valley of Shangta in
                    northern Tibet. It is here that the
                    Rod of ECK Power is passed from
                    the departing LEM to his successor
                    on October 22 [Twitchell's Birthday],
                    at midnight; sometimes called the
                    Voice, or Oracle, of Tirmer."

                    It should be noted that this is a
                    physical, earthly, and "outer" location,
                    although, it might be claimed that
                    one travels there in the Astral Body
                    which resembles one's physical body.
                    This is why there are paintings and
                    drawings of these people. Any body
                    higher than the Astral would not
                    otherwise have the same identifiable
                    (physical) characteristics.

                    It should be noted that in Klemp's
                    1987 book, "Soul Travelers of the
                    Far Country" on pages 186-187 that
                    Klemp states:

                    "The Ninth Initiation came on July 22,
                    1981. Initiations in ECK beyond the
                    Eighth are given ONLY on the inner
                    planes."

                    Of course, Darwin had to confirm
                    HK's 9th on the outer. It seems that
                    the 10th and 11th are minor initiations
                    since Klemp achieved these between
                    July 22, 1981 and October 22, 1981!


                    Of course Klemp had to backtrack
                    for the Masters 4 Discourse because
                    how can one anoint card carrying
                    9ths without an "outer" confirmation
                    "final" stage?

                    Else wise, everyone would be
                    running around claiming to be
                    a 9ths. It's bad enough that 7ths
                    are claiming to be 8ths (on the inner),
                    or that 8ths are claiming to be 9ths
                    on the inner or that some Eckists
                    skip initiations and, thus, there
                    are 5ths claiming to be 8ths
                    (on the inner).

                    I hope that this info and perspective
                    has helped to clarify the nonsense
                    behind ECK Initiations.

                    BTW- It seems that Eckists don't
                    really need the Initiations, EK Books
                    and Membership Cards, or Zoas,
                    or Guidelines, Discourses, or Laws
                    or Donations of Coin and Service...
                    all they need is love!

                    There is a Klemp quote in the
                    Jan. 2010 "Letter of Light" that
                    states:

                    "Love is love. And this is what
                    the ECK teachings are all about.
                    Purely love, and just love. Simply
                    love."

                    Yep! All you need is love! Very
                    simple and yet so profound!
                    Say, wasn't that Jesus' message
                    2000 years ago?!

                    Prometheus

                    zoey wrote:
                    initiations

                    Hey prometheus. Some time back there was
                    a discussion here concerning eckankar
                    initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember,
                    can you tell me which initiations are considered
                    entirely inner, and which are required to also
                    have an outer initiation with an eck clergy?

                    My friend and I are curious about this.

                    Thanks, zoey
                  • jonathanjohns96
                    Prometheus, I m going to add a few facts from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion. In your post just before the one I am
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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                      Prometheus,

                      I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion.

                      In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin] Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp!"

                      I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.

                      Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.

                      By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth. But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to progress people really fast."

                      It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without receiving their 5th initiation.

                      Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was automatically suspect if not completely wrong.

                      Jonathan
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Jonathan, Klemp never did explain when Darwin fell from Grace. Was it prior to Oct. 22, 1981? If so when? It was Klemp s idea to meet in the Sound
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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                        Hello Jonathan,
                        Klemp never did explain "when" Darwin
                        fell from Grace. Was it prior to Oct. 22,
                        1981? If so when? It was Klemp's idea
                        to meet in the Sound Proof Dark Room
                        (Golden-Tongued Wisdom, no ECK!) at
                        the ESC to discuss the transition and being
                        made the LEM.

                        Klemp mentioned, after the fact, when
                        he booted Darwin that DG had promoted
                        500 to the 5th initiation before their time.
                        Actually, if Darwin really was a Black Magician,
                        as HK had claimed when DG promoted these
                        people, that would indicate that these chelas
                        had been initiated into the Black Arts versus
                        Eckankar! Nobody ever viewed this or spoke
                        of it from that perspective!

                        I knew a person who got the 4th and
                        then a few months later got the 5th from
                        DG. Years later Klemp made this person
                        a RESA. However, I had heard that people
                        had skipped initiations and this was years
                        prior to Darwin's fall. One person who posted
                        here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made
                        it to the 7th in 10 years or less. For some
                        reason Klemp sees those promotions as
                        necessary and okay but not Darwin's 1983
                        promotions. Look at the promotions that
                        Klemp got from Darwin! HK's selfish and
                        doesn't want anyone else near his rank.

                        I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong
                        side of his Klemp-Kal like RESA and remained
                        a 4th for 25 years! Currently there are around
                        5,000 7th initiates who have been locked into
                        that initiation for 20-25 years! Why? Because
                        Klemp is mean-spirited and doesn't want to
                        share the "wealth."

                        Over the years Klemp has made it more
                        difficult for H.I.s to advance in initiation
                        rank due to the hoops he has them jumping
                        through. It's like a circus and he's the ring-
                        master! The training requirements, as well as,
                        Vahana/Service requirements and holding
                        local positions to be noticed makes it difficult
                        to advance when one has to play KAL-like
                        games and "act as if" in order to get that
                        outer pink slip. One cannot receive promotions
                        (initiations) by being an ECK Monk. Klemp
                        needs his servants/promoters/salespeople.
                        There is no room for the purely spiritual seeker!

                        Prometheus



                        jonathanjohns wrote:
                        >
                        > Prometheus,
                        >
                        > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my
                        personal experience in the 1980-1983
                        time frame to the discussion.
                        >
                        > In your post just before the one I am
                        responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                        Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!"
                        And then you followed it up with "Ooops!
                        I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th,
                        and around 1983 just before being kicked
                        out by Klemp!"
                        >
                        > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so
                        I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                        Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was
                        around 1980/1981 that a member of
                        Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was
                        promoted directly from 3rd initiate to
                        5th initiate. In other words, he skipped
                        his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                        later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't
                        be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was
                        definitely done by Darwin.
                        >
                        > Also, I heard about one other person
                        who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                        interesting thing is that I believe that
                        both of these people had been in Eckankar
                        for less than 10 years. Eckankar started
                        in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute
                        maximum time the person who spoke to
                        me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke
                        about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain
                        he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death,
                        making his maximum time in Eckankar about
                        10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971.
                        I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better
                        estimate of the time he was a member of
                        Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years
                        old.
                        >
                        > By the way, regarding the person, B.S.,
                        who personally told me about skipping his
                        4th initiation. I asked him how that happened.
                        He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember
                        what it was. I believe it had something to do
                        with the fact that he progressed spiritually so
                        fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                        But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said
                        something like "the ECK need to progress
                        people really fast."
                        >
                        > It has been mentioned in other posts
                        on this message board that things are
                        a lot different now, with many members
                        of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                        receiving their 5th initiation.
                        >
                        > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI
                        that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to
                        people who didn't really deserve them. Of
                        course, during the time when Darwin was
                        the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was
                        100% accepted by Eckankar's membership,
                        but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin
                        did or didn't do was automatically suspect
                        if not completely wrong.
                        >
                        > Jonathan

                        Prometheus wrote:

                        Basically, 1-9 are inner and outer,
                        10-11 are inner, 12 is inner and outer,
                        and 13-14 are inner.

                        [1-9]
                        In The Masters 4 Discourse, Lesson 2
                        is the following:

                        "Third, the final part of the Ninth
                        Initiation occurs in the physical
                        world."

                        [12th]
                        In Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon is this
                        on page 226:

                        "Voice of Akivasha. The oracle, until
                        the first of this century, at a craggy,
                        unexplored site called the Oracle of
                        Tirmer in the Valley of Shangta in
                        northern Tibet. It is here that the
                        Rod of ECK Power is passed from
                        the departing LEM to his successor
                        on October 22 [Twitchell's Birthday],
                        at midnight; sometimes called the
                        Voice, or Oracle, of Tirmer."

                        It should be noted that this is a
                        physical, earthly, and "outer" location,
                        although, it might be claimed that
                        one travels there in the Astral Body
                        which resembles one's physical body.
                        This is why there are paintings and
                        drawings of these people. Any body
                        higher than the Astral would not
                        otherwise have the same identifiable
                        (physical) characteristics.

                        It should be noted that in Klemp's
                        1987 book, "Soul Travelers of the
                        Far Country" on pages 186-187 that
                        Klemp states:

                        "The Ninth Initiation came on July 22,
                        1981. Initiations in ECK beyond the
                        Eighth are given ONLY on the inner
                        planes."

                        Of course, Darwin had to confirm
                        HK's 9th on the outer. It seems that
                        the 10th and 11th are minor initiations
                        since Klemp achieved these between
                        July 22, 1981 and October 22, 1981!


                        Of course Klemp had to backtrack
                        for the Masters 4 Discourse because
                        how can one anoint card carrying
                        9ths without an "outer" confirmation
                        "final" stage?

                        Else wise, everyone would be
                        running around claiming to be
                        a 9ths. It's bad enough that 7ths
                        are claiming to be 8ths (on the inner),
                        or that 8ths are claiming to be 9ths
                        on the inner or that some Eckists
                        skip initiations and, thus, there
                        are 5ths claiming to be 8ths
                        (on the inner).
                      • jonathanjohns96
                        Prometheus, Thanks for your reply. You said I had heard that people had skipped initiations and this was years prior to Darwin s fall. I thought it was about
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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                          Prometheus,

                          Thanks for your reply. You said "I had heard that people had skipped initiations and this was years prior to Darwin's fall." I thought it was about 1980-1981 when this person told me this, but he might have received his 5th years before. So thank you for your verification that you heard about it years before Darwin's fall. He was a very honest person, I don't doubt that he skipped his 4th, just as he told me that he did. After all, if he was going to lie, he probably would have said that it didn't happen in order to cover up the fact. I wanted to mention it just as a way of attempting to preserve the "true history" of Eckankar. I'm not sure why I care about doing that (for them) but I do. I guess I don't want to see them put out their fabricated history of Eckankar where they say "rumors that people in the past skipped imitations are untrue." I could just see that happening. But I still don't know why I care. I guess I believe the world deserves an honest history of Eckankar. And I certainly don't trust them to do it.

                          You also said "One person who posted here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made it to the 7th in 10 years or less." That is truly amazing, isn't it? It makes my recollection (and interpretation) of the Eckist I spoke to, B.S., making it to the 5th in 7 to 8 years by 1981 all the more believable. But he was definitely doing all the "right stuff," I feel because he really believed in it. A few years later he went to work for the International office.

                          You also said "I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong side of his Klemp-Kal like RESA and remained a 4th for 25 years!" My experience was that I got my 5th on the "29 year mark." But I did take a five year sabbatical. And I wasn't doing any of the right things. I didn't give talks. I put up some posters with some other people one time. I never volunteered at the Eck center. I did volunteer at an Eckankar booth at a health fair one time. I did attend the Worship Services, at times fairly regularly, but I guess that didn't count for very much.

                          Also, I thought the initiation were based on my spiritual progress. I thought Klemp was hard at work on the inner, keeping track of me, much like Santa Clause does. So I had no clue that your next initiation was based on doing volunteer work to promote Eckankar.

                          So it truly is amazing to see the differences between now and back in the days when Darwin was the LEM. I think you have already mentioned this many times, but I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that Klemp has become more and more paranoid through the years. And so he demands more and more and more through the years before he even trusts any members. I must admit that when you were discussing the difference between Darwin and today's Klemp, I didn't realize how severe the difference was.

                          I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened. He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the center.

                          So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two questions since you were active in the functioning of your Eck center. Were you aware of people like this who had zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar? And do you think that these people were commonly passed over for initiations?

                          Jonathan
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hi Jonathan, Okay, I ll give your questions a shot from my perspectives as a former H.I. and EK Leader. Yes, we had people like this turn up every now and then
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 31, 2010
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                            Hi Jonathan,
                            Okay, I'll give your questions a shot from my
                            perspectives as a former H.I. and EK Leader.
                            Yes, we had people like this turn up every now
                            and then over the decades. Some had years on
                            me and yet I'd never seen them before. Others
                            were from other parts of the state or had left
                            Eckankar and then returned. Some had been
                            on a rest period, or were on a rest period and
                            didn't know anything "current." Anyone not
                            wanting to stick out like a sore thumb just needs
                            to quote the Shariyat, or talk about the Mahanta's
                            love, or about Surrender and they should fit-in
                            as though they had never been gone.

                            I'll respond to the questions below--


                            Jonathan wrote:
                            I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had
                            a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened.
                            He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a
                            member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been
                            for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never
                            attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who
                            gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the
                            local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the
                            center.

                            So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two
                            questions since you were active in the functioning
                            of your Eck center.

                            1.) Were you aware of people like this who had
                            zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar?


                            P- Yes, at times there I had never met some
                            of those on the ESC's membership list. Others
                            I knew of. Some only came to the ECK Worship
                            Service (EWS) or to Satsang. Sometimes I would
                            try to get them to volunteer by finding out what
                            they might like to do and then I would have that
                            specific coordinator speak to them. It was very
                            important to welcome and befriend them and
                            make them feel at home and want to join in and
                            socialize and to give them a volunteer position
                            so that they would feel needed. I then tried to
                            get them into Satsang Classes. Of course
                            that was another problem because I had to have
                            a Satsang Arahata to teach the class. Some EKists
                            took the Arahata Training, but still hadn't taught
                            a class after two years which, according to the Guidelines,
                            meant that they needed to be retrained. Retraining
                            was a problem because there needed to be trainers
                            available to do the retraining. Everything in Eckankar
                            takes forever to accomplish. And, in the end after
                            everything is said and done, only a handful of people
                            ever join and even fewer renew after the first year.
                            Word of mouth or Klemp getting on the radio or
                            TV would be best, but Klemp is lazy and a faker
                            that can't handle the heat. His main focus is to
                            keep ECKists busy and involved and to sell them
                            more EK materials ($)... to distribute to the trash
                            cans.

                            2.) And do you think that these people were commonly
                            passed over for initiations?

                            P- Well, that depends on who you know as well.
                            I had a 4th who finally became a volunteer after
                            many years of membership. I gave him an important
                            coordinator position. However, he quit the position
                            after six months! One promises that they will stay
                            in the EK position for one year (ending on Oct.22).
                            Apparently he had some pull with some friends of
                            the RESA and I was never called about his initiation.
                            He soon got his 5th! I would never have approved
                            him. His knowledge of the EK teachings were poor
                            and he was a poor example for an EK leader. He
                            did make an attempt to turn over a "new leaf" but
                            it was too little too late. To this day he's still a
                            poor excuse for a H.I., but that's good!

                            Other people who don't volunteer or attend
                            the appropriate training classes for advancement
                            will be passed over. Plus, one has to have an
                            "active" membership. If you're on a rest period
                            then your time-in-grade for advancement is
                            frozen. Also, one has to watch out what they
                            say, where and when, and to whom they say it.
                            Sometimes honestly is not the best policy! If
                            you get put on the RESA's Black List and are
                            passed over you can be in the toilet for "at least"
                            three years or until you prove yourself to the
                            Next RESA.

                            I've seen it happen where the RESA stepped
                            down and people who never had a chance of
                            getting promoted finally got promoted! I've
                            also seen people move to other states and get
                            promoted immediately under a different (nicer)
                            RESA. It happens all the time. Attend enough
                            seminars and talk to enough EK Leaders and
                            you can hear all sorts of "stories" that Klemp
                            doesn't want to hear or know about. So much
                            for the "All Knowing Mahanta!"

                            Yes, I remember back in the mid 80's that
                            there were Circles of Initiation Workshops
                            and that some H.I.s had to pass at being
                            facilitators on certain ones (third & fourth)
                            because they either skipped that initiation
                            or had been in it for only a few months before
                            getting promoted. How can one talk about
                            the trials and tribulations of the 4th when
                            you skipped it or had been in it for a few
                            months?

                            Prometheus





                            jonathan wrote:
                            Prometheus,

                            Thanks for your reply. You said "I had heard that people had skipped initiations
                            and this was years prior to Darwin's fall." I thought it was about 1980-1981
                            when this person told me this, but he might have received his 5th years before.
                            So thank you for your verification that you heard about it years before Darwin's
                            fall. He was a very honest person, I don't doubt that he skipped his 4th, just
                            as he told me that he did. After all, if he was going to lie, he probably would
                            have said that it didn't happen in order to cover up the fact. I wanted to
                            mention it just as a way of attempting to preserve the "true history" of
                            Eckankar. I'm not sure why I care about doing that (for them) but I do. I guess
                            I don't want to see them put out their fabricated history of Eckankar where they
                            say "rumors that people in the past skipped imitations are untrue." I could just
                            see that happening. But I still don't know why I care. I guess I believe the
                            world deserves an honest history of Eckankar. And I certainly don't trust them
                            to do it.

                            You also said "One person who posted here on ESA recently, Colleen Russell, made
                            it to the 7th in 10 years or less." That is truly amazing, isn't it? It makes my
                            recollection (and interpretation) of the Eckist I spoke to, B.S., making it to
                            the 5th in 7 to 8 years by 1981 all the more believable. But he was definitely
                            doing all the "right stuff," I feel because he really believed in it. A few
                            years later he went to work for the International office.

                            You also said "I knew of one Eckist who got on the wrong side of his Klemp-Kal
                            like RESA and remained a 4th for 25 years!" My experience was that I got my 5th
                            on the "29 year mark." But I did take a five year sabbatical. And I wasn't doing
                            any of the right things. I didn't give talks. I put up some posters with some
                            other people one time. I never volunteered at the Eck center. I did volunteer at
                            an Eckankar booth at a health fair one time. I did attend the Worship Services,
                            at times fairly regularly, but I guess that didn't count for very much.

                            Also, I thought the initiation were based on my spiritual progress. I thought
                            Klemp was hard at work on the inner, keeping track of me, much like Santa Clause
                            does. So I had no clue that your next initiation was based on doing volunteer
                            work to promote Eckankar.

                            So it truly is amazing to see the differences between now and back in the days
                            when Darwin was the LEM. I think you have already mentioned this many times, but
                            I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that Klemp has become more and
                            more paranoid through the years. And so he demands more and more and more
                            through the years before he even trusts any members. I must admit that when you
                            were discussing the difference between Darwin and today's Klemp, I didn't
                            realize how severe the difference was.

                            I'd like to change the subject a little bit. In my last year in Eckankar, we had
                            a "guest" at a worship service, which is something that almost never happened.
                            He was very quiet, middle-aged in his 50s I suppose. I thought he wasn't a
                            member of Eckankar. A week or two later I learned that he was a member, had been
                            for about 20 to 30 years (I can't remember the exact number), but he just never
                            attended official Eckankar activities. I was really surprised. The higher HI who
                            gave me the information about him said that there are a lot of members in the
                            local area like this. By the way, he did live about an hour drive from the
                            center.

                            So, Prometheus, I would like to ask you two questions since you were active in
                            the functioning of your Eck center. Were you aware of people like this who had
                            zero involvement in the outer functions of Eckankar? And do you think that these
                            people were commonly passed over for initiations?

                            Jonathan
                          • ctecvie
                            Hi Jonathan and all, my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I m not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and
                            Message 13 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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                              Hi Jonathan and all,

                              my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally. She once told him that either she or some people she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations in one day - one or two in the morning and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                              At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates as eckankar was still young. Now there are so many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling - I guess that's why initiations are slowed down so much!

                              It's all about administration and money, and power of course ... :-))
                              Ingrid

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96" <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Prometheus,
                              >
                              > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983 time frame to the discussion.
                              >
                              > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin] Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before being kicked out by Klemp!"
                              >
                              > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5 initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                              >
                              > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                              >
                              > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation, but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth. But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to progress people really fast."
                              >
                              > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without receiving their 5th initiation.
                              >
                              > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                              >
                              > Jonathan
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Ingrid and All, Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too. I didn t know that about ECKists getting several initiations in one day. Was that during Paul s
                              Message 14 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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                                Hello Ingrid and All,
                                Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                                I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                                several initiations in one day. Was that
                                during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                                I know that Klemp would never do that...
                                he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                                can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                                residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                                Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                                is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                                exception, but it does set a precedent.

                                IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                                Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                                of 8ths to 7ths?

                                And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                                lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                                be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                                at least 500 8th Initiates.

                                Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                                Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                                doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                                hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                                but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                                mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                                to the ECK Membership let alone say
                                something nice about the former ECK
                                Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                                failed. And when he fails a test like that
                                it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                                His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                                throne.

                                Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                                promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                                Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                                have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                                And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                                threaten his reign HK could have made them
                                all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                                LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
                                or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                                selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                                stuck in the past.

                                Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                                compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                                his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                                and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                                typical of all religions and their leaders.

                                Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                                Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                                on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                                promise of more initiations leading to God-
                                Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                                Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                                materials and seminars, taking more training,
                                following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                                lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                                is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                                you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                                but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                                like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                                In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                                "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                                one is able to finally see the correlations and
                                the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                                one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                                all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                                until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                                with Divine Spirit.

                                Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                                a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                                or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                                Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                                cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                                heresy! People are executed, even today,
                                by religionists who claim to love God.
                                But, why does God need to be protected?

                                Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                                and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                                weak-minded followers, and are immature
                                Souls.

                                Prometheus


                                ctecvie wrote:
                                Hi Jonathan and all,

                                my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                                She once told him that either she or some people
                                she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                                initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                                and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                                At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                                as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                                many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                                I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                                so much!

                                It's all about administration and money, and power
                                of course ... :-))

                                Ingrid

                                jonathanjohns wrote:
                                >
                                > Prometheus,
                                >
                                > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                                time frame to the discussion.
                                >
                                > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                                Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                                "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                                being kicked out by Klemp!"
                                >
                                > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                                Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                                Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                                initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                                later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                                initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                                >
                                > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                                interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                                Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                                the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                                never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                                Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                                Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                                of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                                >
                                > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                                his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                                but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                                that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                                But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                                progress people really fast."
                                >
                                > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                                lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                                receiving their 5th initiation.
                                >
                                > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                                out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                                Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                                membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                                automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                                >
                                > Jonathan
                                >
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello All, I just remembered something that I heard back in the 80s from a member of Klemp s EK Spiritual Council. This 8th said that Harold needed to make
                                Message 15 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
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                                  Hello All,
                                  I just remembered something that
                                  I heard back in the 80s from a
                                  member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                                  This 8th said that Harold needed to
                                  make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                                  he was making exceptions out of
                                  necessity. And, HK had promoted
                                  one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                                  to the 9th. I never knew why this
                                  9th initiation thing was/is such a
                                  big secret. It's probably because
                                  HK doesn't want to build up any
                                  more expectations for those higher
                                  initiations anymore than he has
                                  already. That's why the "imagination"
                                  pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                                  The only Catch to getting and keeping
                                  the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                                  he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                                  prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                                  with the membership. Twit more than
                                  likely started the "no tell" rule because
                                  he didn't want others to find out who
                                  he had promoted, behind the backs
                                  of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                                  Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                                  However, this "no tell" rule has been
                                  expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                                  to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                                  Initiation openly.This is one reason
                                  Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                                  He got the speculation about the 9th
                                  out of the way and at the same time
                                  prevented any discussion of the matter
                                  outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                                  No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                                  outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                                  Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                                  second guessing, or questions and
                                  speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                                  If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                                  any future initiations will be put on
                                  hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                                  H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                                  fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                                  flock and to keep them on task and sell
                                  Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                                  or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                                  spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                                  mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                                  and EK publications.


                                  prometheus wrote:

                                  Hello Ingrid and All,
                                  Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                                  I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                                  several initiations in one day. Was that
                                  during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                                  I know that Klemp would never do that...
                                  he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                                  can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                                  residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                                  Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                                  is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                                  exception, but it does set a precedent.

                                  IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                                  Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                                  of 8ths to 7ths?

                                  And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                                  lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                                  be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                                  at least 500 8th Initiates.

                                  Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                                  Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                                  doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                                  hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                                  but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                                  mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                                  to the ECK Membership let alone say
                                  something nice about the former ECK
                                  Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                                  failed. And when he fails a test like that
                                  it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                                  His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                                  throne.

                                  Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                                  promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                                  Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                                  have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                                  And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                                  threaten his reign HK could have made them
                                  all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                                  LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/tradition
                                  or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                                  selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                                  stuck in the past.

                                  Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                                  compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                                  his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                                  and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                                  typical of all religions and their leaders.

                                  Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                                  Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                                  on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                                  promise of more initiations leading to God-
                                  Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                                  Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                                  materials and seminars, taking more training,
                                  following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                                  lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                                  is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                                  you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                                  but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                                  like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                                  In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                                  "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                                  one is able to finally see the correlations and
                                  the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                                  one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                                  all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                                  until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                                  with Divine Spirit.

                                  Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                                  a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                                  or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                                  Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                                  cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                                  heresy! People are executed, even today,
                                  by religionists who claim to love God.
                                  But, why does God need to be protected?

                                  Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                                  and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                                  weak-minded followers, and are immature
                                  Souls.

                                  Prometheus


                                  ctecvie wrote:
                                  Hi Jonathan and all,

                                  my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                                  She once told him that either she or some people
                                  she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                                  initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                                  and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                                  At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                                  as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                                  many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                                  I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                                  so much!

                                  It's all about administration and money, and power
                                  of course ... :-))

                                  Ingrid

                                  jonathanjohns wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus,
                                  >
                                  > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                                  time frame to the discussion.
                                  >
                                  > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                                  Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                                  "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                                  being kicked out by Klemp!"
                                  >
                                  > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                                  Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                                  Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                                  initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                                  later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                                  initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                                  >
                                  > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                                  interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                                  Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                                  the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                                  never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                                  Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                                  Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                                  of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                                  >
                                  > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                                  his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                                  but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                                  that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                                  But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                                  progress people really fast."
                                  >
                                  > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                                  lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                                  receiving their 5th initiation.
                                  >
                                  > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                                  out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                                  Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                                  membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                                  automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                                  >
                                  > Jonathan
                                • Ed Kusi
                                  Hi All, This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Feb 1, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi All,
                                    This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in Africa too. | personally know five HIs in one country who were jumped from 2nd and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened in Darwin's time and the reasons given were as already mentioned in related posts.

                                    Pretujari

                                    --- On Mon, 2/1/10, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: 3rd initiation to 5th initiation (not me) in 1980-1983 time frame
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:03 PM

                                     

                                    Hello All,
                                    I just remembered something that
                                    I heard back in the 80s from a
                                    member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                                    This 8th said that Harold needed to
                                    make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                                    he was making exceptions out of
                                    necessity. And, HK had promoted
                                    one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                                    to the 9th. I never knew why this
                                    9th initiation thing was/is such a
                                    big secret. It's probably because
                                    HK doesn't want to build up any
                                    more expectations for those higher
                                    initiations anymore than he has
                                    already. That's why the "imagination"
                                    pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                                    The only Catch to getting and keeping
                                    the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                                    he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                                    prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                                    with the membership. Twit more than
                                    likely started the "no tell" rule because
                                    he didn't want others to find out who
                                    he had promoted, behind the backs
                                    of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                                    Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                                    However, this "no tell" rule has been
                                    expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                                    to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                                    Initiation openly.This is one reason
                                    Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                                    He got the speculation about the 9th
                                    out of the way and at the same time
                                    prevented any discussion of the matter
                                    outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                                    No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                                    outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                                    Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                                    second guessing, or questions and
                                    speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                                    If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                                    any future initiations will be put on
                                    hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                                    H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                                    fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                                    flock and to keep them on task and sell
                                    Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                                    or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                                    spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                                    mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                                    and EK publications.

                                    prometheus wrote:

                                    Hello Ingrid and All,
                                    Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                                    I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                                    several initiations in one day. Was that
                                    during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                                    I know that Klemp would never do that...
                                    he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                                    can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                                    residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                                    Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                                    is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                                    exception, but it does set a precedent.

                                    IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                                    Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                                    of 8ths to 7ths?

                                    And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                                    lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                                    be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                                    at least 500 8th Initiates.

                                    Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                                    Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                                    doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                                    hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                                    but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                                    mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                                    to the ECK Membership let alone say
                                    something nice about the former ECK
                                    Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                                    failed. And when he fails a test like that
                                    it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                                    His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                                    throne.

                                    Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                                    promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                                    Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                                    have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                                    And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                                    threaten his reign HK could have made them
                                    all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                                    LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
                                    or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                                    selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                                    stuck in the past.

                                    Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                                    compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                                    his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                                    and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                                    typical of all religions and their leaders.

                                    Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                                    Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                                    on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                                    promise of more initiations leading to God-
                                    Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                                    Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                                    materials and seminars, taking more training,
                                    following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                                    lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                                    is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                                    you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                                    but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                                    like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                                    In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                                    "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                                    one is able to finally see the correlations and
                                    the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                                    one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                                    all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                                    until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                                    with Divine Spirit.

                                    Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                                    a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                                    or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                                    Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                                    cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                                    heresy! People are executed, even today,
                                    by religionists who claim to love God.
                                    But, why does God need to be protected?

                                    Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                                    and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                                    weak-minded followers, and are immature
                                    Souls.

                                    Prometheus

                                    ctecvie wrote:
                                    Hi Jonathan and all,

                                    my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                                    She once told him that either she or some people
                                    she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                                    initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                                    and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                                    At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                                    as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                                    many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                                    I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                                    so much!

                                    It's all about administration and money, and power
                                    of course ... :-))

                                    Ingrid

                                    jonathanjohns wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus,
                                    >
                                    > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                                    time frame to the discussion.
                                    >
                                    > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                                    Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                                    "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                                    being kicked out by Klemp!"
                                    >
                                    > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                                    Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                                    Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                                    initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                                    later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                                    initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                                    >
                                    > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                                    interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                                    Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                                    the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                                    never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                                    Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                                    Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                                    of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                                    >
                                    > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                                    his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                                    but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                                    that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                                    But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                                    progress people really fast."
                                    >
                                    > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                                    lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                                    receiving their 5th initiation.
                                    >
                                    > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                                    out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                                    Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                                    membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                                    automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                                    >
                                    > Jonathan


                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hello Ed and All, Now that my memory of this has been refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning people in Africa being promoted rapidly due to the need for EK
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Feb 2, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hello Ed and All,
                                      Now that my memory of this has been
                                      refreshed I do recall Klemp mentioning
                                      people in Africa being promoted rapidly
                                      due to the need for EK Leaders. I had
                                      no idea as to how it was being done
                                      and that initiations were being skipped!
                                      HK would (and still) always say how
                                      advanced and natural the Africans' beliefs
                                      were. But, from what I've heard, there's
                                      a lot of superstition, folk lore, and other
                                      beliefs mixed in with the EK teachings.

                                      Ed, can you share or elaborate on this?

                                      Apparently HK's policy of this skipping
                                      of initiations was a sin of omission on
                                      Klemp's part. He knew that other EKists
                                      wouldn't feel comfortable with this tactic.
                                      HK never shared these details with the
                                      membership. I guess that the general
                                      membership didn't need to know how
                                      he was conducting business since he
                                      doesn't have to report to anyone for his
                                      actions... like the Pope.

                                      It just goes to show that the EK Initiations
                                      can be manipulated for physical worldly
                                      gains... more sales leaders.

                                      It is hypocritical of Klemp to bring up
                                      the fact that Paul promoted people
                                      very rapidly to Higher Initiations due
                                      to need when Eckankar was in the
                                      early stages. Darwin did the same thing
                                      early on and was never criticized for it.
                                      When DG's and HK's conflict, in 1983,
                                      was coming to a head Darwin promoted
                                      500 EKists to the 5th initiation. The
                                      problem was really with Klemp's ego.
                                      Instead, Klemp made Darwin look like
                                      the bad guy on this, too, because of
                                      the other things that had taken place.

                                      However, as I said before, IF Darwin
                                      really was a Black Magician, as the nasty
                                      Klempster claimed, that would mean
                                      that those 500 EKists DG gave the 5th
                                      to had actually been initiated, unknowingly,
                                      into the Black Arts. Klemp claimed, at
                                      the time, that viewing Darwin's picture
                                      or reading his words could have psychic
                                      influence over ECKists. Where was Klemp's
                                      protection? This is why ECKists don't
                                      usually read outside (unapproved) books
                                      and info. Klemp has scared them from
                                      doing so. But, where's the "protection"
                                      from such things? Catch-22 again!

                                      Anyway, let's not forget Klemp promoting
                                      people in Europe rapidly as well. Plus,
                                      after the schism in 1983-1984 Klemp
                                      had gaps in EK leadership, due to H.I.s
                                      leaving to follow Darwin, and thus
                                      promoted his own group of H.I.s as fill-ins.
                                      Once again, the promotions (initiations)
                                      had nothing to do with Spiritual Growth.

                                      Yes, it's interesting to discuss these
                                      remembrances and piece together
                                      information about the EK Initiations.
                                      Klemp's cover-up and omissions on
                                      his own policy of skipping initiations
                                      is more proof that the initiations aren't
                                      what ECKists imagine them to be.
                                      The initiations are devalued when
                                      the truth about how and why they
                                      are manipulated becomes known.

                                      Of course, the true blue EKist will
                                      deny the truth. They need Eckankar
                                      (religion) and will rationalize. They
                                      turn a blind-eye to facts and to
                                      critical thinking. They want to and
                                      need to believe in Eckankar because
                                      they don't have a replacement belief.
                                      Also, Eckankar is convenient and like
                                      all religions it "answers" our questions
                                      with dogma that seems to make sense
                                      at times. And, the promises (imaginings)
                                      and dreams seem better than what other
                                      religions seem to teach and offer. But,
                                      that never ending "Service/Sales" crap
                                      is the real turnoff! Well actually, Klemp
                                      promoting his younger looking image
                                      in "Tips for ECK Study" and on "The
                                      Wisdom Notes" page is a real turn-off!
                                      Such vanity!

                                      Prometheus

                                      Ed Kusi wrote:

                                      Hi All,
                                      This 3-5th,and even 2-5th happened in
                                      Africa too. | personally know five HIs in
                                      one country who were jumped from 2nd
                                      and 3rd to the 5th Initiation. It happened
                                      in Darwin's time and the reasons given
                                      were as already mentioned in related posts.

                                      Pretujari

                                      prometheus wrote:

                                      Hello All,
                                      I just remembered something that
                                      I heard back in the 80s from a
                                      member of Klemp's EK Spiritual Council.
                                      This 8th said that Harold needed to
                                      make more H.I.s in Europe and that
                                      he was making exceptions out of
                                      necessity. And, HK had promoted
                                      one person (a man), in Eastern Europe,
                                      to the 9th. I never knew why this
                                      9th initiation thing was/is such a
                                      big secret. It's probably because
                                      HK doesn't want to build up any
                                      more expectations for those higher
                                      initiations anymore than he has
                                      already. That's why the "imagination"
                                      pacifier is pushed onto H.I.s.

                                      The only Catch to getting and keeping
                                      the 9th lies with that individual Not telling
                                      he/she is a 9th! However, this doesn't
                                      prevent Klemp from sharing this info
                                      with the membership. Twit more than
                                      likely started the "no tell" rule because
                                      he didn't want others to find out who
                                      he had promoted, behind the backs
                                      of his Spiritual Council, and be jealous.
                                      Gail was probably a 9th as is Joan!

                                      However, this "no tell" rule has been
                                      expanded. No ECKists are supposed
                                      to discuss (gossip about) the Ninth
                                      Initiation openly.This is one reason
                                      Klemp put this into the Masters 4 Discourse.
                                      He got the speculation about the 9th
                                      out of the way and at the same time
                                      prevented any discussion of the matter
                                      outside of The Master's 4 Satsang Class.
                                      No ECKists are to discuss their discourses
                                      outside of their Satsang Class! Plus,
                                      Klemp has eliminated any other discussion,
                                      second guessing, or questions and
                                      speculation by referring to such as "gossip."
                                      If any ECKist is reported for "gossiping"
                                      any future initiations will be put on
                                      hold. This is a fact that most long-time
                                      H.I.s are well aware of. This is just another
                                      fear tactic that Klemp uses to control his
                                      flock and to keep them on task and sell
                                      Eckankar! if Klemp had any true powers
                                      or divine insight he wouldn't need his
                                      spies, or the RESA police, or "stories"
                                      mailed to him for use in his talks, books,
                                      and EK publications.

                                      prometheus wrote:

                                      Hello Ingrid and All,
                                      Yes, I know Bettine Clemen (Ware) too.
                                      I didn't know that about ECKists getting
                                      several initiations in one day. Was that
                                      during Paul's reign, or Darwin's or both?
                                      I know that Klemp would never do that...
                                      he's too stingy! And, HK's RESA hierarchy
                                      can't deal with higher ranking H.I.s
                                      residing within their Satsangs. Although,
                                      Bob Lawton (Klemp's former body guard)
                                      is both an 8th and a RESA. That's the only
                                      exception, but it does set a precedent.

                                      IMO- The Glass Ceiling for 7ths is unjustified.
                                      Why isn't there a more proportionate number
                                      of 8ths to 7ths?

                                      And, since there ARE a few ECK 9th Initiates
                                      lurking around why wouldn't that initiation
                                      be the actual Glass Ceiling, thus, allowing
                                      at least 500 8th Initiates.

                                      Actually, why does Klemp have these Glass
                                      Ceilings? It's because he's a narcissist and
                                      doen't want to share. He's a two faced
                                      hypocrite! He talks about love and compassion,
                                      but Not forgiveness! Thus, he has never
                                      mentioned Darwin's (972nd LEM) death
                                      to the ECK Membership let alone say
                                      something nice about the former ECK
                                      Master. That was the "test" that Klemp
                                      failed. And when he fails a test like that
                                      it means that he, too, has fallen from Grace!
                                      His attachment to Power keeps him on the
                                      throne.

                                      Anyway, If Klemp wanted to he could have
                                      promoted two or three initiates to the 12th.
                                      Not all 12ths have to be LEMs and not all LEMs
                                      have to be Mahantas... right? Sure!

                                      And, to insure that these 12ths wouldn't
                                      threaten his reign HK could have made them
                                      all females. In ECKankar females can't become
                                      LEM/Mahantas due to law/science/ tradition
                                      or whatever. Klemp is just an old tired ass
                                      selfish, mean spirited and fearful fuddy duddy
                                      stuck in the past.

                                      Klemp's negative behaviour and lack of
                                      compassion towards Darwin, and especially
                                      his death, is proof that he is both a hypocrite
                                      and a fraud. But, this is human/KAL behaviour
                                      typical of all religions and their leaders.

                                      Unfortunately, ECKists (the most advanced
                                      Souls ever, LOL) have tunnel vision and blinders
                                      on. They can only focus upon that carrot (the
                                      promise of more initiations leading to God-
                                      Realization) as they trot along doing Service,
                                      Surrendering, HUing, spending money on EK
                                      materials and seminars, taking more training,
                                      following the Guidelines and acting "as if" the
                                      lies of PT and HK are the ultimate truth. Such
                                      is religious belief. It may feel good and give
                                      you some hope, peace of mind and security,
                                      but it's not Reality or Truth! It's just filler...
                                      like Klemp's simple-minded redundant books!

                                      In truth, all religions and their dogmas are
                                      "tests" for the more "advanced" Souls. When
                                      one is able to finally see the correlations and
                                      the lies and beyond the "group think" then
                                      one is able to see with more clarity and discard
                                      all religion. The veils of illusion slowly disappear
                                      until one can commune privately, one-to-one,
                                      with Divine Spirit.

                                      Soul doesn't need a LEM or Mahanta or
                                      a Master or a priest, or a Pope to intervene
                                      or guide them on the Outer or Inner Planes.
                                      Of course, all religions (including Eckankar)
                                      cannot tolerate such statements. This is
                                      heresy! People are executed, even today,
                                      by religionists who claim to love God.
                                      But, why does God need to be protected?

                                      Thus, those religionists who attack us,
                                      and the Truth, are ignorant, fearful,
                                      weak-minded followers, and are immature
                                      Souls.

                                      Prometheus

                                      ctecvie wrote:
                                      Hi Jonathan and all,

                                      my husband knew Bettine Clemen personally.
                                      She once told him that either she or some people
                                      she knew (I'm not sure) got the 3rd, 4th and 5th
                                      initiations in one day - one or two in the morning
                                      and the last one(s) in the afternoon!

                                      At the time they needed a lot of higher initiates
                                      as eckankar was still young. Now there are so
                                      many HIs that they had to introduce a glass ceiling -
                                      I guess that's why initiations are slowed down
                                      so much!

                                      It's all about administration and money, and power
                                      of course ... :-))

                                      Ingrid

                                      jonathanjohns wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus,
                                      >
                                      > I'm going to add a few "facts" from my personal experience in the 1980-1983
                                      time frame to the discussion.
                                      >
                                      > In your post just before the one I am responding to, you stated that "[Darwin]
                                      Gross promoted 1000 Eckists to the 5th!" And then you followed it up with
                                      "Ooops! I think that was 500 (not 1000) to the 5th, and around 1983 just before
                                      being kicked out by Klemp!"
                                      >
                                      > I joined Eckanakar around 1979 so I got in on the last few years of Darwin
                                      Gross' time as the LEM. I believe it was around 1980/1981 that a member of
                                      Eckankar, B.S., told me that he was promoted directly from 3rd initiate to 5th
                                      initiate. In other words, he skipped his 4th initiation. This may have occurred
                                      later, in the 1983 time frame, I really can't be certain, but this "3 to 5
                                      initiation" was definitely done by Darwin.
                                      >
                                      > Also, I heard about one other person who went from 3rd to 5th. The really
                                      interesting thing is that I believe that both of these people had been in
                                      Eckankar for less than 10 years. Eckankar started in 1965, so 15-18 years was
                                      the absolute maximum time the person who spoke to me was in Eckankar. Plus, he
                                      never spoke about Paul Twitchell, and I'm very certain he joined Eckankar after
                                      Twitchell's death, making his maximum time in Eckankar about 10-13 years since
                                      Darwin started in 1971. I honestly think that 7 to 8 years is a better estimate
                                      of the time he was a member of Eckankar. He was only about 25 to 30 years old.
                                      >
                                      > By the way, regarding the person, B.S., who personally told me about skipping
                                      his 4th initiation. I asked him how that happened. He gave me an explanation,
                                      but I don't remember what it was. I believe it had something to do with the fact
                                      that he progressed spiritually so fast, he didn't need to "pause" at the fourth.
                                      But he wasn't arrogant so he probably said something like "the ECK need to
                                      progress people really fast."
                                      >
                                      > It has been mentioned in other posts on this message board that things are a
                                      lot different now, with many members of Eckankar going almost 30 years without
                                      receiving their 5th initiation.
                                      >
                                      > Years later, I did hear from a higher HI that Darwin gave a lot of initiations
                                      out to people who didn't really deserve them. Of course, during the time when
                                      Darwin was the LEM, whatever he did or didn't do was 100% accepted by Eckankar's
                                      membership, but after he was kicked out, everything Darwin did or didn't do was
                                      automatically suspect if not completely wrong.
                                      >
                                      > Jonathan
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