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Re: [X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck] Digest Number 560

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  • Sharon
    The postal clerk story was posted awhile back at EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous by Prometheus - I just did a search but couldn t find the original post, it s from
    Message 1 of 3 , Jul 12, 2009
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      The postal clerk story was posted awhile back at EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous by Prometheus - I just did a search but couldn't find the original post, it's from the
      09/2003 HI newsletter, Joan got all bent out of shape about being asked for ID at the PO and Klemp made some nasty comments about it.   It was a pretty good post!   I'm sure Prometheus would be able to find it again - in fact, I'll try cc'ing a copy of this over to ESA & hope it works - I'm in a rush right now & almost on my way out the door!

      Oh - do you remember an old klempstory, he & wife (I think it was Marge at the time) were in their car, trying to figure out if their conversation was simply discussing someone or <oh horrors!> gossip, the muffler fell off the car so that was "golden tongued wisdom" telling them they were gossiping.  More likely Klemp just neglected to maintain his car properly.

      There's lot of fun & informative stories in the message archives at all the "ex" groups if you've got time to go back & read them!

      Hugs,

      Sharon


      From: X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck@yahoogroups.com <X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck] Digest Number 560
      To: X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, July 11, 2009, 4:02 PM

      There is 1 message in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1a. what's the postal clerk story?   
          From: harrisonferrel


      Message
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1a. what's the postal clerk story?
          Posted by: "harrisonferrel" harrisonferrel@... harrisonferrel
          Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:59 am ((PDT))

      I liked this line: "I think divine unconditional love is total bullshit now."

      I totally agree, along with the points about the need for emotions. Anger is a natural bodily response, like fear and love. They are part of our survival mechanisms. Harold is just full of shit and there's not much more one could say that covers it better. Anything you say against him or eckankrap is met with "My, you have anger issues." May answer is "Thank you, that means, unlike you, I'm still human."

      And one more: gossip. Sure, it sucks to spread vicious rumors, to defame people or cause trouble between people. But, again, talking about others is what we do as social creatures. If you don't talk about other people, then you're suppressing your feelings.

      BUT, WHAT IS THE POSTAL CLERK story?



      --- In X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck@yahoogroups.com, Sharon <brighttigress@...> wrote:
      >
      > Excellent comments - thank you!
      >
      > I think ekult and other cults use the stifling of normal human emotions for both control and to produce good recruiters.  I've read a bit about the "cultic personality" but don't remember a whole lot of the details.  There's a lot of info on other cult information sites, and it was all very helpful to me when I first got out, although in the beginning I was so brainwashed I didn't even recognize a lot of it in myself.  
      >
      > Humans *are* emotional beings.  Heck, animals feel emotions too!   There's not a darned thing wrong with them unless they're carried to extremes, and people who are totally controlled by their emotions.  Like anger - not one of my personal problems thank goodness & never has been, I knew very angry people from childhood and started stifling signs of it in myself back then.  But it's okay to get pissed off, and sometimes we really *need* to!!   I get angry about things like child abusers.  Back in my eckdays, naturally I tried to stifle anger, even about horrible things like pervs, and tried to be "spirichul" about it, tell myself it was karma, lessons, and that pervs were "soul" too.   Well, I think divine unconditional love is total bullshit now.   You just have to be "appropriate" about it - you know, not like little kids who trip over their bicycles and then yell at the bikes, which they left laying at the bottom of the steps to begin
      >  with.  <gg> 
      >
      > Or, fear.  We *need* fear.  Talking about fear just recently with some friends, who said I was afraid of something, and I said no, I'm not afraid - yes, I realized I don't feel fear as people usually think about it, I just recognize a dangerous situation and quite unemotionally stay away from it, and don't feel anything in particular about it one way or another.   Now, years ago I used to be terrified of spiders - that was way *beyond* fear - I'd get hysterical and couldn't even get close enough to rinse those horrible big wolf spiders down the bathtub drain!!    Worked hard to get over that, though. 
      >
      > And yes, we *do* need to be judgmental about just about *everything* in life!!
      >
      > The thing is not to let emotions rule us, and to use our minds to make decisions, even as to what appropriate emotions are.   And if I make no sense, well....it's late and I'm sort of just trying to "wind down" a bit.  
      >
      > Eckies are a lot like the JWs I became acquainted with as a kid, who put on a good "front" so potential new members think it's just wonderful to be a JW, but when you get to know them, you find out they're frequently just phony passive-aggressive backstabbers, etc.   Klemp's  a "master" at this, as Prometheus over at ESA has so often pointed out, like in the postal clerk story.
      >
      > Anyway, I enjoyed your post, and the recent conversation here, altho at this moment I don't really remember the specifics.  Aging sucks bigtime.  I'm not being emotional about it, just stating a fact.  <gg> 
      >
      > Sharon
      >
      >
      > --- On Sat, 7/4/09, X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck@yahoogroups.com <X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >     Posted by: "harrisonferrel" harrisonferrel@... harrisonferrel
      >     Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 1:30 pm ((PDT))
      >
      > This is a key statement that you wrote...
      >
      > "As far as fear, imo, this is a feeling a lot like anger. As you have said, for the eckankar religion/cult to work requires deception and agreeing to numb feelings so that no alarm bells will go off. If we had let ourselves feel fear, we might not have joined eckankar and remained members for so long."
      >
      > THE CONCEPT OF FORFEITING our emotions is crazy to the outsider of eckankar or any other cult. We develop many different emotions and ways to deal with problems. Some of these serve us quite well to keep us out of trouble.
      >
      > The eckist's favorite comeback is "I see you are angry..." as if this is a bad thing. If we step back and look at what it means NOT to be angry, frustrated, mistrusting, judgmental, etc., then we quickly understand that we are left without coping mechanism -- not just to handle situations but also to PROCESS situations and experiences.
      >
      > The eck nonsense writings, so self-contradictory and illogical, are full of instances wherein klemp and twitchell exhibit the above emotions. Klemp also mentions such instances in his droning lectures that, quite often, are convoluted and make no sense at all. But my point is that they take this attitude, "what's good for me is not good for you."
      >
      > Of course we know that to surrender our human feelings, emotions, instincts and intuition is to make ourselves ripe for victimization. To me it's analogous to being in a physical fight wherein the attacker tells you that you're not allowed to use your hands for defense.
      >
      > The fact that eckists go along with this notion that anger, judgment and the like is beyond amazing.
      >







      Messages in this topic (2)





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    • prometheus_973
      Hello Sharon and All, The (Third) Temporary Postal Clerk story is listed in the FILES section, but I ll repost it here for non-ESA (site) members. HK s nasty
      Message 2 of 3 , Jul 12, 2009
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        Hello Sharon and All,
        The (Third) Temporary Postal Clerk story
        is listed in the FILES section, but I'll repost
        it here for non-ESA (site) members.

        HK's nasty and personal comments toward
        this non-EK clerk are interesting because
        neither Joan (a 9th initiate) or himself
        (Harry Klemp, a 14th LEM/Mahanta) are able to
        see beyond their noses! They're hypocrites and
        have no "high" consciousness! Joan mentions
        that there were THREE (temporary) clerks working
        that infamous day, and in Eckankar the "Principle
        of the Threes"is a KEY "Sign" to be noticed... as
        a Spiritual "Wake-Up-Call" where one is to
        "Pay Attention" because there is probably a "test"
        coming down the chute.

        Also, the EK "Law of Economy" is over-looked
        as well. Why should a clerk look for a package
        before seeing one's I.D. and waste his time, and
        the time of other customers, if that person has
        left their I.D. in the car or at home! It's post 9/11!

        As for the Klemp's car karma, or negligence and
        irresponsibility, it seems like he is always putting
        the blame elsewhere. No! It wasn't gossip that
        made the muffler fall off because this happens
        everyday to other irresponsible and oblivious
        car owners who aren't eckists and who don't
        gossip while driving. What is the excuse when
        another car hits you while playing a tape of one
        of Klemp's EK Seminar talks or a HU CD? Yes,
        this has actually happened to H.I.s and chelas
        I know! And, remember the story about Harry
        and Marge driving from Texas to Las Vegas
        in an old overloaded car with NO brakes! How
        stupid and irresponsible was that... overloaded
        and bad brakes! BTW- Weren't his prayers, for
        safety, actually directed to the KAL? It wasn't
        within Sugmad's realm of authority... this lower
        plane car/karma stuff is assigned to KAL (according
        to the Shariyats, the Eckankar Holy Books).

        Here's the copy from the ESA FILES Section (with
        comments) of the Front Page Article of the 09/2003
        H.I. Letter by Harry ("Postal") Klemp. Remember, he
        got this report second-hand from Joan. Please forgive
        me if some of my points have been repeated.


        *******************************************************

        It looks like Klemp also overlooked the EK Principle of
        the Threes, although, HK mentioned (twice) that there
        were THREE fill-ins or temporary postal clerks working
        that infamous day! LOL! I took the liberty to capitalize
        some key words in this account of Klemp's biased hear-
        say story.

        I thought I would refresh some memories with Klemp's
        Third Temporary Postal Clerk story.

        My comments are meant to give other perspectives (balance
        too) and to to address those negative comments made by
        Harold Klemp (spiritual leader of Eckankar) toward a (Third)
        temporary postal clerk that Harold's wife, Joan, had dealings
        with when she went to the Post Office to check on a package.

        When reading HK's comments ask yourself:

        1) Why did Klemp find it necessary to even mention this incident
        in the H.I. Letter? Is he as conscious and thick-skinned like a Rhino?;

        2) Why was HK so emotionally involved with this hearsay account?;

        3) Why was HK so unloving toward this clerk (Soul)?

        4) Why didn't 9th Initiate Joan let go of her anger and frustration
        and Not mention the incident to Harold when she arrived home?
        It had to have been her huge Elephant sized Ego that blinded
        her to the real Truth. After all, she was/ is wrong and of an Astral
        Consciousness for Not seeing the significance of the THREE clerks
        nor understanding the Law of Economy, or the Postal Regulations
        the clerk was following! Harold was/is equally at blame too! Thus,
        he's No Master! This is more proof of the blind leading the blind!

        ***The H.I. Letter - September 2003 [front page article]***

        HK-
        "Joan went to the post office to conduct some business. The THREE
        regular postal clerks were on vacation, and THREE fill-ins were in
        place. Joan asked one clerk, a SURLY man who'd served her some
        weeks earlier as a fill-in, to please check if she had a package.
        He THREW BACK a DARK LOOK. `I'll need to see some identification.'
        Joan returned a puzzled look. Show an ID for a package that might
        not be there?"

        P-
        See! Klemp mentioned twice that there were THREE clerks!
        Principle of the Threes anyone? Now why was Joan "puzzled?"
        How difficult is it to get your ID out? Maybe Joan isn't use to an
        underling giving her orders (she is the wife of the man with the
        highest consciousness on earth and she is second in command
        at the ECKankar Spiritual Center (ESC) regardless of what Peter
        Skelsky (the President of ECKankar) may think!

        Also, the Law of Economy and common sense would be applied
        here as well. Why would the clerk take the time to look through
        dozens of packages, and keep other customers waiting, only to
        find out that the Joan forgot her ID? Or, what if the package was
        for someone else who had to present their own ID if the package
        had a different address (the ESC) than on her (Joan's) driver license?


        HK-
        "With all the SELF-IMPORTANCE of an UNCIVIL servant, he said,
        `There are No Normal People here today!' That explained everything.
        It'd been a hard day all around. The difference between them is
        that The Clerk Holds On To Things He Feels Are Out Of Order, WHILE
        JOAN LETS THE SLIGHTS OF OTHER PEOPLE GO. SHE DOESN'T HANG
        ON TO A BAD ENCOUNTER with a person who behaves in a BOORISH
        manner. She SURRENDERS to the ECK." [My caps]

        P-
        Not showing an ID is out-of-order! I would, also, disagree with
        Harold and say that the "difference" between Joan and the temporary
        postal clerk is that Joan is an 9th initiate in Eckankar, and that she
        was WRONG not to think that she should show her ID before the
        clerk went to look for the package.

        Also, I don't believe that Joan Does Not hold onto what she perceives
        as "slights of other people," or that "she doesn't hang on to a bad
        encounter!" After all, how did Harold even know of the incident,
        unless, Joan gave him an ear full when she arrived home! Besides,
        why does she even see this as a slight? Is she seeing the red of her
        own aura, and the reflection of her own feelings and Not that of the
        temporary clerk? Joan seems to have a very strong ego and gets very
        emotional when challenged by a lesser valued Soul. And, Harold obviously
        felt insulted and wronged for his wife (according to her account), and
        he, too, became emotionally involved in order to make these negative
        and unloving comments about this Soul.

        HK-
        "The Golden-tongued Wisdom had spoken in the clerk's own
        words: There are no normal people here today.' He'd then said
        that he couldn't issue a postal money order—a basic post-office
        service. Joan, of course, persisted. Another clerk was happy to
        sell her a money order."

        P-
        I find that this is an abuse of the term "Golden-Tongued Wisdom"
        since Harold is using it in a vengeful way in order to slight this
        temporary postal clerk. Besides, are Truth/God Seekers "normal
        people?" I don't think so! Then again, Klemp stated in this same
        H.I. Letter that ECKists are "Superior Normal." Anyway, it could,
        also, be that this temporary clerk was not trained to do money
        orders, or that only one person had this duty? Why am I able to
        see the obvious, or the positive side of things and Harold and
        Joan can't? Give the clerk the benefit of the doubt for God's sake!

        HK-
        "Let the ECK, or the Mahanta, help carry your frustrations. It's
        the key to happiness. But how to accomplish that? The discipline
        of remembering to surrender is part of one's spiritual discipline.
        Yes, this sounds like no answer at all, but it's the individual's
        responsibility to remember. That's what consciousness is for."

        P-
        What a load of Bullshit! How is surrendering or becoming co-
        dependence upon a "Mahanta," teaching spiritual discipline
        and Self-Mastery? It certainly isn't teaching self responsibility!
        Perhaps we should look at it from another perspective and
        understand that the test is Not to remember to hand the problem
        off to someone else, but is to take responsibility! In almost all
        of Harold's writings I can see that Klemp is not very empathetic
        (understanding and loving) to other people.

        HK-
        "Let's add, too, that the postal clerk's IDEA of SERVICE to people
        goes BEGGING. It's not an example for an ECKist. Service in ECK
        means being an agent for the Mahanta. It requires respect for
        others." [My caps]

        P-
        Harold's not being very nice to this THIRD temporary postal clerk
        is he? Actually, the clerk was probably acting on a higher level
        of consciousness than Joan (a 9th initiate in Eckankar) and Harold
        (a 14th initiate). After all, he was following the Law of Economy
        by asking for Joan's ID before he went looking for the packages.
        What if she had not had the I.D. with her (as many people have done)
        after he looked for five minutes? Isn't it just common sense to ask
        to see the I.D. first? Where is Harold's common sense? His emotions
        in defending Joan from an imagined insult has blinded him! But,
        what happened to the Mahanta's "respect" for this Soul?

        Isn't it interesting that Harold is also throwing out the old "service"
        carrot also. Too bad that Harold's idea of service cannot help him
        to be an agent for the Mahanta either. Or, maybe he is a true agent
        of KAL as a false "Master." BTW- Let's not overlook the Principle of
        the Threes! Both Joan and Harold mentioned that there were THREE
        clerks on duty and yet this doesn't make them take a second look
        at the whole experience (test)!


        HK-
        "The Holy ECK feeds all with the bread and waters of life. So how
        could a spiritually alert person do less than SERVE It with love and
        humility? This attitude should be like a shining light to the world.
        True love and humility show in all one's dealings. Build and support
        people. An old saying has it: `Whose bread I eat, his song I
        sing.'

        P-
        I wonder who Harold is talking about because it can't be himself
        or Joan! How can Harold be "SPIRITUALLY ALERT" or "humble" to
        have made these nasty comments in this publication? Why did they
        not see the obvious point about the clerk checking to see if people
        have their IDs with them before looking for their packages? And,
        after 9/11 security is tighter everywhere anyway! HK and JK were
        both caught up in emotional (Astral) anger. The bigger one is the
        further they have to fall! One more thing- This article sat in HK's
        computer for awhile and wasn't immediately printed in this pub.
        Klemp had plenty of time to cool down and regain his composure
        and perspective. HK could have done a rewrite, or deleted this, but
        he didn't! This gives a very clear look into his dark vindictive Soul.

        Why was it that Harold and Joan can't see that maybe only one
        "temporary clerk" might have been in charge of doing money orders?
        Even assuming that this one person seemed lazy, or was not very
        customer friendly about the money order… couldn't there be mitigating
        circumstances for this? What was Joan projecting? Or, maybe the
        clerk wasn't even trained on how to do money orders…. he's a
        "TEMPORARY" (fill-in) postal clerk! Where is the empathy and insight?
        Where is Harold's love and humility? Notice that Harold throws in the
        word "serve" as he tries to give the impression that only he and ECK
        chelas become spiritually aware when they "serve It" and that "true
        love and humility shows in all one's dealings." Not really, but putting
        his spin on things is nothing new to Harold.


        HK-
        "Wouldn't a loving and humble ECKist recognize the ECK and the
        Mahanta as the source of his very subsistence? Then how could
        he ever serve the Kal, the negative force?

        P-
        I didn't meet too many loving and humble ECKists in my many
        years and travels (including Harold!). They're almost as rare as
        finding hen's teeth in the EK Henhouse! Now I did meet a lot of
        unloving, arrogant, delusional, unspiritual, clueless, rationalizing
        and manipulative Eckists! So, maybe This is why many don't have
        a True relationship with Spirit (the Eck). To me, Harold doesn't seem
        to have a true relationship with Spirit either. Just look at his words
        and behavior! And once again, Harold is pushing reliance on the
        Mahanta as the "source of his (ECKists) very subsistence." ECKists
        actually serve the KAL (the Black Magician) while thinking they are
        serving the Mahanta. But take a second look at Klemp's words!

        It's interesting that Harold asks the question as to how any ECKist
        could ever serve the KAL when they claim to serve the ECK (Spirit),
        AND the Mahanta? Is this supposed to be proof that Harold is serving
        Spirit instead of KAL? Does his made-up title of "Mahanta" mean that
        he's above Karma? And, doesn't service to IT take place and change
        in each moment as we make choices, or do chelas just start the day
        with a contemplation and pretend that the Mahanta will take care
        of things for them? If ECKists are to be "spiritually alert" then they
        should be alert to what is taking place with other people and with
        their own actions and reactions to them, as well as, the situations
        we are all placed in for our spiritual growth. Unfortunately, both
        Harold and Joan did not view this experience and test with the
        THIRD temporary postal clerk as an opportunity for their own spiritual
        growth because they are delusional and egotistical. I would say
        that they have MISSED the MARK and have erroneously placed
        themselves above the field of action and of spiritual growth.
        They are deluded and mean spirited! Klemp may have fooled these
        ECKists, for now, but eventually IT will catch up to him! Catch-22!

        Prometheus




        Sharon <brighttigress@...> wrote:
        >
        > The postal clerk story was posted awhile back at
        Eckankar Survivors Anonymous by Prometheus - I just
        did a search but couldn't find the original post, it's from
        the 09/2003 HI newsletter, Joan got all bent out of shape
        about being asked for ID at the PO and Klemp made some
        nasty comments about it.   It was a pretty good post!  
        I'm sure Prometheus would be able to find it again -
        in fact, I'll try cc'ing a copy of this over to ESA & hope
        it works - I'm in a rush right now & almost on my way
        out the door!
        >
        > Oh - do you remember an old klempstory, he & wife
        (I think it was Marge at the time) were in their car, trying
        to figure out if their conversation was simply discussing
        someone or <oh horrors!> gossip, the muffler fell off the
        car so that was "golden tongued wisdom" telling them they
        were gossiping.  More likely Klemp just neglected to maintain
        his car properly.
        >
        > There's lot of fun & informative stories in the message
        archives at all the "ex" groups if you've got time to go back
        & read them!
        >
        > Hugs,
        >
        > Sharon
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Sharon and All, Here s a snip from that infamous Sept. 2003 H.I. Letter (listed in the FILES section): ***The H.I. Letter - September 2003 [front page
        Message 3 of 3 , Jul 14, 2009
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          Hello Sharon and All,
          Here's a snip from that infamous Sept. 2003 H.I. Letter
          (listed in the FILES section):

          ***The H.I. Letter - September 2003 [front page article]***

          HK-
          "Joan went to the post office to conduct some business. The THREE
          regular postal clerks were on vacation, and THREE fill-ins were in
          place. Joan asked one clerk, a SURLY man who'd served her some
          weeks earlier as a fill-in, to please check if she had a package.
          He THREW BACK a DARK LOOK. `I'll need to see some identification.'
          Joan returned a puzzled look. Show an ID for a package that might
          not be there?"

          ME: Is Klemp clueless, stupid, aloof, or out-of-touch
          with reality that he thinks people (or just Joan) shouldn't
          have to "Show an ID for a package that might not be there?"

          This comment, alone, shows that Klemp is NOT a Master!

          A truly enlightened Soul (Master) would Not have made this
          illogical comment let alone these other negative and emotional
          ones. Would Jesus, Gandhi, or Buddha have responded like
          Klemp? No! Of course not! Yet, on page 385 of HK's "Autobiography
          of a Modern Prophet" he claims that these people created and
          followed (Gandhi, Hinduism) 2nd and 4th Plane religions.
          And Klemp claims to be a 14th Plane Mahanta (Master of Masters)!

          Then, we have Klemp failing to see the significance of there
          being THREE fill-in clerks on that day of Joan's visit! This
          "Principle of the Threes" is used by Klemp when responding
          to Questions and when using Sources when writing his articles.
          Yet, his emotional outburst tunes this out and upsets his balance!
          But, for some unknown reason, HK's H.I.s have become blinded
          to the Truth! Amazing!

          Next, we have the irony of Klemp's Negative and Emotional
          (Astral) attack of this Soul based upon the "real" Golden-Tongued
          Wisdom that Klemp fails to see.

          This post office (package & ID) experience was a "private" and
          "personal" Spiritual Wake-Up Call (test) for Joan. Harry became
          involved and they both deluded themselves to think they're
          "above" tests and karma via to believing in their own hype.
          Instead, Klemp makes it into a lesson for "other" chelas.
          However, for those "others" who can still SEE with spiritual
          eyes ECK (SPIRIT) is giving them the opportunity, insight,
          and common sense (Grace?) to see through Klemp's fraud
          with his own words!

          Prometheus


          Sharon <brighttigress@...> wrote:
          >
          > The postal clerk story was posted awhile back at
          EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous by Prometheus - I just
          did a search but couldn't find the original post, it's
          from the

          > 09/2003 HI newsletter, Joan got all bent out of shape
          about being asked for ID at the PO and Klemp made some
          nasty comments about it.   It was a pretty good post!  
          I'm sure Prometheus would be able to find it again - in fact,
          I'll try cc'ing a copy of this over to ESA & hope it works -
          I'm in a rush right now & almost on my way out the door!

          [snip]
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