Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

Expand Messages
  • Jason Mc Dermott
    Hi Prometheus Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y know somewhere to
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Prometheus

      Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y'know somewhere to start..interesting line of inquiry though. Also thanks for the detail on becoming a 5th initiate I never really looked into it though. The sites great with all the files you've put up..great help.

      Thanks again

      Jay




      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 5:02:45
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

      Hello Jay,
      Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
      you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
      been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
      archives), and there are Links and Files,
      also, that show and discuss many of these
      subjects as well. However, the main focus
      of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
      this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
      positioned himself to inherit it and how
      he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
      continue the lies, myth, and the belief
      systems (fear and faith) that all religions
      use. - P.

      Jay wrote:
      Dear Etznab

      >
      I my self am doing similar in studying back
      over the shariyat's to see how much of these
      two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
      me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
      But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
      vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
      at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
      he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
      Then of course there are the number of books
      written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
      on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
      the story on this enigma of a man:
      >
      The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
      of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
      >
      P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
      not actually contain "the whole truth"
      and that much is just a rehash of his
      previous opinions and speculations]
      >
      The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
      >
      P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
      denounced Klemp and his own book about
      his "Mahanta" experiences. ]
      >
      Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
      >
      P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
      spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
      who took his place]
      >
      The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
      though the above books have helped move
      on from some of his theories and material,
      but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
      He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
      book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
      just type his name in and you'll find it.
      >
      P: *[David started the ball rolling]
      >
      Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
      to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
      of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
      he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
      to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
      on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
      the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
      set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
      with others..they' re quite good.
      >
      Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
      of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
      its on you tube the link is
      >
      http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego& feature=related
      >
      As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
      girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
      apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
      the website is
      >
      http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html
      >
      Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
      of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
      when kicked out of Eck.
      >
      P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
      Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
      >
      Also as you may know there are a few other off
      shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
      actually can't remember him.. should have book
      marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
      he has his own line of past masters. Another
      guy who will mail you intro material is Master
      Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
      >
      I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
      haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
      I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
      hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
      far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
      perspective of where I may be going next. What
      really makes his insights for us all stand out are
      two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
      in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
      master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
      all the time his students said he was with them
      on the inner planes and how they would praise
      him for his place in their spiritual development,
      he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
      nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
      students on the inner planes...I mean come on
      how profound is this.
      >
      Though we are on the intellectual level only with
      all this talk..it is basic and important though.
      I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
      I've practised the HU chant all this time and
      studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
      of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
      i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
      or ignored the possible science of the brain that
      maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
      to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd
      initiate always told it was my choice, though
      I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
      be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
      >
      >
      P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
      under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
      professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
      you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
      (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
      do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
      >
      >
      I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
      and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
      remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
      >
      Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
      of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
      >
      http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html
      >
      hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
      >
      Jay


      >
      > From: etznab
      >
      > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
      >
      > Prometheus,
      >
      > No. I haven't.
      >
      > The reference to number seven interests me.
      > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
      > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
      > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
      > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
      > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
      > them all. Like, something on another level, so
      > to speak. Examples:
      >
      > p. 156
      >
      > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
      > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
      > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
      > all!"
      >
      > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
      > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
      > not sure. That quote is on the second page
      > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
      > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
      >
      > For some reason, I'm under the impression
      > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
      > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
      > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
      > the same book.
      >
      > p. 195
      >
      > "When I want to show the world my highest
      > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
      > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
      > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
      > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
      > final for he represents my power in the seven
      > lower worlds."
      >
      > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
      > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
      >
      > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
      > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
      > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
      > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
      > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
      > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
      > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
      >
      > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
      >
      > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
      > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
      > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
      > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
      > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
      > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
      > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
      > book would mention this many and then the
      > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
      > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
      > haste, and will have to go back & check the
      > names of the planes for accuracy.)
      >
      > In the next chapter following that one (THE
      > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
      > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
      > of the chapter:
      >
      > p. 197
      >
      > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
      > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
      > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
      > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
      > you will then know for yourself. [....]
      >
      > p. 199
      >
      > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
      > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
      > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
      > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
      > creations throughout the seven spheres."
      >
      > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
      > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
      > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
      > other time mentions seven spheres.
      >
      > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
      > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
      > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
      > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
      >
      > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
      > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
      > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
      > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
      > a total of only seven planets.
      >
      > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
      > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
      > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
      > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
      > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
      > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
      > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
      > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
      > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
      > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
      > was already known to history? How much was in
      > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
      > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
      > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
      > how much of the material had actually come direct
      > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
      > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
      >
      > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
      > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
      > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
      > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
      >
      > Etznab
      >
      >
      > Hello Etznab,
      >
      > You make some good points and have
      >
      > brought up more information to point
      >
      > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
      >
      > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
      >
      > and D.W.T.M. later.
      >
      >
      > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
      >
      > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
      >
      > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
      >
      > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
      >
      > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
      >
      > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
      >
      > overlook this point. And, look at how
      >
      > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
      >
      > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
      >
      > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
      >
      > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
      >
      > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
      >
      > under Klemp's rule(s)!
      >
      >
      > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
      >
      > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
      >
      > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
      >
      > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
      >
      > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
      >
      > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
      >
      > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
      >
      > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
      >
      > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
      >
      > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
      >
      > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
      >
      > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
      >
      > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
      >
      > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
      >
      > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
      >
      > Plane!
      >
      > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
      >
      > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
      >
      > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
      >
      > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
      >
      > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
      >
      > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
      >


      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Jay, Etznab, and All, Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it s fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that this is
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
        Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
        fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
        that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
        this is similar to beating a dead horse
        when sorting out the truth from all the
        crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
        distracted from the current, now, happenings
        under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

        Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
        He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
        the hook via his distractions involving
        Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
        avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
        PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
        the lies and myth that Twitchell created
        in order to confuse the issue.

        Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
        but became more and more insane over
        time. And, look at those "creative" people
        in business who have scammed thousands
        of individuals out of their life savings! They
        even scammed hospitals and non-profit
        foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
        Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
        expected from a person who paid to be
        included in "The International Who's Who
        of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
        why do EKists need Klemp when they can
        "create" their own reality/destiny and make
        themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
        Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
        redundant and lives in the past by quoting
        historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
        EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
        with their current views of society and how
        it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
        are these relevant "insights" from these EK
        Masters?

        BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
        a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
        a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
        actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
        truth about Marman's book is that it comes
        much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

        Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
        "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
        that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
        as well!

        As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
        it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
        With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
        said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
        or any other EK Master!

        FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
        This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
        "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
        the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
        the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
        about this "upper region," although, it is referred
        to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
        looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
        happens because asking too many questions shows
        spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
        in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
        comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
        answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
        the same text that contain the conflicting info!
        This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
        works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
        or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
        within the Satsang Society.

        Prometheus

        Jay wrote:

        Dear Etznab

        Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
        its a fictional piece based on the well known
        metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
        I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
        features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
        multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
        in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
        Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
        by clicking on the classes button and then the
        audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
        them in order as not to get confused of what's
        being discussed and explained by Johnson,
        the particular section of Over soul seven and
        Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

        g'luk

        Jay

        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

        >
        >

        Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
        >
        Etznab,
        Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
        >
        Prometheus,

        Etznab wrote:
        > No. I haven't.
        >
        > The reference to number seven interests me.
        > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
        > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
        > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
        > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
        > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
        > them all. Like, something on another level, so
        > to speak. Examples:
        >
        > p. 156
        >
        > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
        > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
        > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
        > all!"
        >
        > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
        > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
        > not sure. That quote is on the second page
        > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
        > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
        >
        > For some reason, I'm under the impression
        > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
        > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
        > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
        > the same book.
        >
        > p. 195
        >
        > "When I want to show the world my highest
        > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
        > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
        > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
        > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
        > final for he represents my power in the seven
        > lower worlds."
        >
        > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
        > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
        >
        > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
        > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
        > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
        > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
        > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
        > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
        > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
        >
        > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
        >
        > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
        > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
        > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
        > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
        > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
        > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
        > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
        > book would mention this many and then the
        > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
        > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
        > haste, and will have to go back & check the
        > names of the planes for accuracy.)
        >
        > In the next chapter following that one (THE
        > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
        > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
        > of the chapter:
        >
        > p. 197
        >
        > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
        > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
        > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
        > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
        > you will then know for yourself. [....]
        >
        > p. 199
        >
        > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
        > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
        > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
        > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
        > creations throughout the seven spheres."
        >
        > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
        > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
        > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
        > other time mentions seven spheres.
        >
        > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
        > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
        > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
        > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
        >
        > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
        > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
        > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
        > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
        > a total of only seven planets.
        >
        > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
        > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
        > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
        > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
        > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
        > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
        > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
        > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
        > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
        > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
        > was already known to history? How much was in
        > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
        > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
        > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
        > how much of the material had actually come direct
        > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
        > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
        >
        > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
        > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
        > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
        > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
        >
        > Etznab
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
        > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
        > "Body"
        >
        > Hello Etznab,
        >
        > You make some good points and have
        >
        > brought up more information to point
        >
        > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
        >
        > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
        >
        > and D.W.T.M. later.
        >
        > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
        >
        > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
        >
        > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
        >
        > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
        >
        > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
        >
        > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
        >
        > overlook this point. And, look at how
        >
        > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
        >
        > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
        >
        > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
        >
        > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
        > D
        >
        > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
        >
        > under Klemp's rule(s)!
        >
        > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
        >
        > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
        >
        > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
        >
        > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
        >
        > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
        >
        > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
        >
        > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
        >
        > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
        >
        > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
        >
        > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
        >
        > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
        >
        > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
        >
        > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
        >
        > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
        >
        > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
        >
        > Plane!
        >
        > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
        >
        > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
        >
        > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
        >
        > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
        >
        > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
        >
        > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
        >
        > Etznab wrote:
        >
        > I would like to know the difference between
        >
        > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
        >
        > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
        >
        > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
        >
        > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
        >
        > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
        > D
        >
        > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
        >
        > This is something I've been contemplating
        >
        > for some time: What is different with the two
        >
        > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
        >
        > about this subject).
        >
        > There's another thing on this subject, and it
        >
        > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
        >
        > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
        >
        > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
        >
        > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
        >
        > any of the other lower world bodies where there
        >
        > are many different ones - including the physical
        >
        > body.
        >
        > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
        >
        > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
        >
        > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
        >
        > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
        >
        > Something like another dimension.
        >
        > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
        >
        > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
        >
        > the Living Eck Master become so important?
        >
        > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
        >
        > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
        >
        > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
        >
        > understanding is that the astral body is limited
        >
        > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
        >
        > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
        >
        > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
        >
        > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
        >
        > it reads like that was his first vis
        > it. However, in
        >
        > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
        >
        > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
        >
        > already!
        >
        > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
        >
        > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
        >
        > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
        >
        > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
        >
        > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
        >
        > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
        >
        > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
        >
        > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
        >
        > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
        >
        > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
        >
        > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
        >
        > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
        >
        > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
        >
        > Fang account and the year 1957.
        >
        > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
        >
        > I wonder, were those two different books, the
        >
        > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
        >
        > experience?
        >
        > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
        >
        > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
        >
        > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
        >
        > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
        >
        > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
        >
        > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
        >
        > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
        >
        > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
        >
        > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
        >
        > I've
        > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
        >
        > books and read from the beginning, looking at
        >
        > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
        >
        > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
        >
        > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
        >
        > had escaped me up until now.
        >
        > Etznab
        >
        > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
        >
        > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
        >
        > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
        >
        > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
        >
        > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
        >
        > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
        >
        > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
        >
        > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
        >
        > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
        >
        > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
        >
        > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
        >
        > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
        >
        > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
        >
        > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
        >
        > teach and other "believers" experience!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
        >
        > Hello All,
        >
        > It was bad enough that HK sold
        >
        > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
        >
        > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
        >
        > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
        > 0D
        >
        > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
        >
        > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
        >
        > The truth has (once again) been
        >
        > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
        >
        > no doubt, likes this rendition because
        >
        > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
        >
        > this drawing looks more "sketch"
        >
        > like than portrait like!
        >
        > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
        >
        > a more modern, shaved look, and
        >
        > does not appear as thin as it really
        >
        > is (the inside portion of his ear is
        >
        > different too).
        >
        > When looking at the front cover photo,
        >
        > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
        >
        > World of ECKankar" we can see that
        >
        > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
        >
        > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
        >
        > makes Klemp look younger.
        >
        > The question ECKists should be asking is,
        >
        > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
        >
        > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
        >
        > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
        >
        > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
        >
        > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
        >
        > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
        >
        > I think it's funny that Klemp names
        >
        > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
        >
        > a "true friend" say such nasty
        > and mean
        >
        > things to you? These RESAs and other
        >
        > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
        >
        > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
        >
        > now they see that there are strings
        >
        > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
        >
        > ship.
        >
        > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
        >
        > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
        >
        > himself, or give it to you... free of
        >
        > charge? Hmmmmmm.
        >
        > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
        >
        > make even more money from his image.
        >
        > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
        >
        > as though he has a big hole running
        >
        > through his head. So, maybe HK could
        >
        > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
        >
        > The chain would go through his ears!
        >
        > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
        >
        > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
        >
        > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
        >
        > he does with portraits, books, etc.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
        >
        >
        > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
        >
      • Jason Mc Dermott
        Hi Prometheus Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT s or HK s stuff being that
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Prometheus

          Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.

          Jay


          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

          Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
          Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
          fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
          that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
          this is similar to beating a dead horse
          when sorting out the truth from all the
          crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
          distracted from the current, now, happenings
          under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

          Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
          He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
          the hook via his distractions involving
          Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
          avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
          PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
          the lies and myth that Twitchell created
          in order to confuse the issue.

          Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
          but became more and more insane over
          time. And, look at those "creative" people
          in business who have scammed thousands
          of individuals out of their life savings! They
          even scammed hospitals and non-profit
          foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
          Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
          expected from a person who paid to be
          included in "The International Who's Who
          of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
          why do EKists need Klemp when they can
          "create" their own reality/destiny and make
          themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
          Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
          redundant and lives in the past by quoting
          historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
          EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
          with their current views of society and how
          it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
          are these relevant "insights" from these EK
          Masters?

          BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
          a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
          a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
          actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
          truth about Marman's book is that it comes
          much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

          Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
          "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
          that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
          as well!

          As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
          it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
          With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
          said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
          or any other EK Master!

          FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
          This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
          "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
          the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
          the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
          about this "upper region," although, it is referred
          to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
          looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
          happens because asking too many questions shows
          spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
          in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
          comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
          answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
          the same text that contain the conflicting info!
          This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
          works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
          or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
          within the Satsang Society.

          Prometheus

          Jay wrote:

          Dear Etznab

          Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
          its a fictional piece based on the well known
          metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
          I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
          features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
          multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
          in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
          Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
          by clicking on the classes button and then the
          audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
          them in order as not to get confused of what's
          being discussed and explained by Johnson,
          the particular section of Over soul seven and
          Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

          g'luk

          Jay

          >
          >
          >
          > ____________ _________ _________ __
          > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>

          >
          >

          Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
          >
          Etznab,
          Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
          >
          Prometheus,

          Etznab wrote:
          > No. I haven't.
          >
          > The reference to number seven interests me.
          > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
          > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
          > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
          > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
          > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
          > them all. Like, something on another level, so
          > to speak. Examples:
          >
          > p. 156
          >
          > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
          > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
          > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
          > all!"
          >
          > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
          > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
          > not sure. That quote is on the second page
          > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
          > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
          >
          > For some reason, I'm under the impression
          > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
          > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
          > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
          > the same book.
          >
          > p. 195
          >
          > "When I want to show the world my highest
          > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
          > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
          > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
          > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
          > final for he represents my power in the seven
          > lower worlds."
          >
          > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
          > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
          >
          > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
          > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
          > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
          > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
          > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
          > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
          > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
          >
          > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
          >
          > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
          > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
          > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
          > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
          > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
          > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
          > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
          > book would mention this many and then the
          > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
          > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
          > haste, and will have to go back & check the
          > names of the planes for accuracy.)
          >
          > In the next chapter following that one (THE
          > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
          > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
          > of the chapter:
          >
          > p. 197
          >
          > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
          > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
          > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
          > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
          > you will then know for yourself. [....]
          >
          > p. 199
          >
          > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
          > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
          > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
          > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
          > creations throughout the seven spheres."
          >
          > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
          > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
          > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
          > other time mentions seven spheres.
          >
          > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
          > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
          > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
          > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
          >
          > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
          > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
          > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
          > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
          > a total of only seven planets.
          >
          > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
          > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
          > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
          > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
          > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
          > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
          > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
          > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
          > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
          > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
          > was already known to history? How much was in
          > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
          > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
          > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
          > how much of the material had actually come direct
          > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
          > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
          >
          > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
          > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
          > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
          > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
          >
          > Etznab
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
          > "Body"
          >
          > Hello Etznab,
          >
          > You make some good points and have
          >
          > brought up more information to point
          >
          > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
          >
          > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
          >
          > and D.W.T.M. later.
          >
          > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
          >
          > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
          >
          > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
          >
          > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
          >
          > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
          >
          > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
          >
          > overlook this point. And, look at how
          >
          > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
          >
          > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
          >
          > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
          >
          > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
          > D
          >
          > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
          >
          > under Klemp's rule(s)!
          >
          > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
          >
          > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
          >
          > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
          >
          > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
          >
          > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
          >
          > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
          >
          > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
          >
          > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
          >
          > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
          >
          > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
          >
          > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
          >
          > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
          >
          > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
          >
          > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
          >
          > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
          >
          > Plane!
          >
          > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
          >
          > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
          >
          > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
          >
          > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
          >
          > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
          >
          > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
          >
          > Etznab wrote:
          >
          > I would like to know the difference between
          >
          > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
          >
          > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
          >
          > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
          >
          > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
          >
          > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
          > D
          >
          > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
          >
          > This is something I've been contemplating
          >
          > for some time: What is different with the two
          >
          > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
          >
          > about this subject).
          >
          > There's another thing on this subject, and it
          >
          > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
          >
          > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
          >
          > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
          >
          > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
          >
          > any of the other lower world bodies where there
          >
          > are many different ones - including the physical
          >
          > body.
          >
          > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
          >
          > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
          >
          > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
          >
          > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
          >
          > Something like another dimension.
          >
          > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
          >
          > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
          >
          > the Living Eck Master become so important?
          >
          > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
          >
          > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
          >
          > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
          >
          > understanding is that the astral body is limited
          >
          > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
          >
          > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
          >
          > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
          >
          > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
          >
          > it reads like that was his first vis
          > it. However, in
          >
          > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
          >
          > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
          >
          > already!
          >
          > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
          >
          > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
          >
          > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
          >
          > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
          >
          > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
          >
          > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
          >
          > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
          >
          > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
          >
          > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
          >
          > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
          >
          > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
          >
          > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
          >
          > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
          >
          > Fang account and the year 1957.
          >
          > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
          >
          > I wonder, were those two different books, the
          >
          > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
          >
          > experience?
          >
          > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
          >
          > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
          >
          > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
          >
          > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
          >
          > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
          >
          > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
          >
          > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
          >
          > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
          >
          > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
          >
          > I've
          > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
          >
          > books and read from the beginning, looking at
          >
          > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
          >
          > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
          >
          > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
          >
          > had escaped me up until now.
          >
          > Etznab
          >
          > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
          >
          > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
          >
          > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
          >
          > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
          >
          > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
          >
          > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
          >
          > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
          >
          > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
          >
          > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
          >
          > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
          >
          > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
          >
          > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
          >
          > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
          >
          > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
          >
          > teach and other "believers" experience!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
          >
          > Hello All,
          >
          > It was bad enough that HK sold
          >
          > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
          >
          > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
          >
          > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
          > 0D
          >
          > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
          >
          > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
          >
          > The truth has (once again) been
          >
          > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
          >
          > no doubt, likes this rendition because
          >
          > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
          >
          > this drawing looks more "sketch"
          >
          > like than portrait like!
          >
          > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
          >
          > a more modern, shaved look, and
          >
          > does not appear as thin as it really
          >
          > is (the inside portion of his ear is
          >
          > different too).
          >
          > When looking at the front cover photo,
          >
          > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
          >
          > World of ECKankar" we can see that
          >
          > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
          >
          > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
          >
          > makes Klemp look younger.
          >
          > The question ECKists should be asking is,
          >
          > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
          >
          > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
          >
          > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
          >
          > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
          >
          > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
          >
          > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
          >
          > I think it's funny that Klemp names
          >
          > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
          >
          > a "true friend" say such nasty
          > and mean
          >
          > things to you? These RESAs and other
          >
          > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
          >
          > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
          >
          > now they see that there are strings
          >
          > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
          >
          > ship.
          >
          > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
          >
          > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
          >
          > himself, or give it to you... free of
          >
          > charge? Hmmmmmm.
          >
          > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
          >
          > make even more money from his image.
          >
          > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
          >
          > as though he has a big hole running
          >
          > through his head. So, maybe HK could
          >
          > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
          >
          > The chain would go through his ears!
          >
          > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
          >
          > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
          >
          > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
          >
          > he does with portraits, books, etc.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
          >
          >
          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
          >


          Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
        • noneckster
          RESPONDING TO THE THREAD: I think it s worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            RESPONDING TO THE THREAD:

            I think it's worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very core. To reread eck books hoping to get some wisdom is foolish imo. It's like drinking Koolaide that tastes like a sugary drink, but may be tainted with poison. : ) Current eckists are just willfully ignorant. There really isn't much of an excuse for their behavior, at this point. If Iranians can communicate and find out information via the internet and cell phone, then access in other Democracies around the world is a click away. Those practicing eckist of today are simply CHOOSING to not know all the facts.

            Before the internet I could understand how it was easier to get duped, conned. The past is the past, for sure, but to not know the past, of course, is to increase the likelihood of repeating it. The study of bad cultic and religious practices is a very important activity IMO.

            Non eckster ; )

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Prometheus
            >
            > Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.
            >
            > Jay
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
            > Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
            > fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
            > that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
            > this is similar to beating a dead horse
            > when sorting out the truth from all the
            > crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
            > distracted from the current, now, happenings
            > under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.
            >
            > Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
            > He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
            > the hook via his distractions involving
            > Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
            > avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
            > PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
            > the lies and myth that Twitchell created
            > in order to confuse the issue.
            >
            > Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
            > but became more and more insane over
            > time. And, look at those "creative" people
            > in business who have scammed thousands
            > of individuals out of their life savings! They
            > even scammed hospitals and non-profit
            > foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
            > Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
            > expected from a person who paid to be
            > included in "The International Who's Who
            > of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
            > why do EKists need Klemp when they can
            > "create" their own reality/destiny and make
            > themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
            > Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
            > redundant and lives in the past by quoting
            > historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
            > EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
            > with their current views of society and how
            > it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
            > are these relevant "insights" from these EK
            > Masters?
            >
            > BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
            > a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
            > a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
            > actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
            > truth about Marman's book is that it comes
            > much closer to Fiction than to "truth."
            >
            > Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
            > "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
            > that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
            > as well!
            >
            > As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
            > it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
            > With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
            > said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
            > or any other EK Master!
            >
            > FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
            > This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
            > "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
            > the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
            > the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
            > about this "upper region," although, it is referred
            > to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
            > looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
            > happens because asking too many questions shows
            > spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
            > in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
            > comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
            > answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
            > the same text that contain the conflicting info!
            > This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
            > works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
            > or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
            > within the Satsang Society.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > Jay wrote:
            >
            > Dear Etznab
            >
            > Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
            > its a fictional piece based on the well known
            > metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
            > I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
            > features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
            > multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
            > in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
            > Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
            > by clicking on the classes button and then the
            > audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
            > them in order as not to get confused of what's
            > being discussed and explained by Johnson,
            > the particular section of Over soul seven and
            > Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.
            >
            > g'luk
            >
            > Jay
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>
            >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
            > >
            > Etznab,
            > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
            > >
            > Prometheus,
            >
            > Etznab wrote:
            > > No. I haven't.
            > >
            > > The reference to number seven interests me.
            > > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
            > > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
            > > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
            > > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
            > > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
            > > them all. Like, something on another level, so
            > > to speak. Examples:
            > >
            > > p. 156
            > >
            > > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
            > > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
            > > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
            > > all!"
            > >
            > > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
            > > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
            > > not sure. That quote is on the second page
            > > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
            > > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
            > >
            > > For some reason, I'm under the impression
            > > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
            > > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
            > > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
            > > the same book.
            > >
            > > p. 195
            > >
            > > "When I want to show the world my highest
            > > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
            > > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
            > > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
            > > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
            > > final for he represents my power in the seven
            > > lower worlds."
            > >
            > > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
            > > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
            > >
            > > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
            > > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
            > > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
            > > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
            > > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
            > > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
            > > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
            > >
            > > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
            > >
            > > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
            > > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
            > > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
            > > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
            > > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
            > > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
            > > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
            > > book would mention this many and then the
            > > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
            > > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
            > > haste, and will have to go back & check the
            > > names of the planes for accuracy.)
            > >
            > > In the next chapter following that one (THE
            > > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
            > > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
            > > of the chapter:
            > >
            > > p. 197
            > >
            > > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
            > > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
            > > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
            > > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
            > > you will then know for yourself. [....]
            > >
            > > p. 199
            > >
            > > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
            > > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
            > > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
            > > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
            > > creations throughout the seven spheres."
            > >
            > > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
            > > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
            > > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
            > > other time mentions seven spheres.
            > >
            > > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
            > > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
            > > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
            > > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
            > >
            > > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
            > > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
            > > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
            > > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
            > > a total of only seven planets.
            > >
            > > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
            > > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
            > > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
            > > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
            > > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
            > > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
            > > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
            > > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
            > > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
            > > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
            > > was already known to history? How much was in
            > > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
            > > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
            > > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
            > > how much of the material had actually come direct
            > > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
            > > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
            > >
            > > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
            > > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
            > > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
            > > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
            > >
            > > Etznab
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
            > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
            > > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
            > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
            > > "Body"
            > >
            > > Hello Etznab,
            > >
            > > You make some good points and have
            > >
            > > brought up more information to point
            > >
            > > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
            > >
            > > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
            > >
            > > and D.W.T.M. later.
            > >
            > > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
            > >
            > > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
            > >
            > > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
            > >
            > > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
            > >
            > > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
            > >
            > > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
            > >
            > > overlook this point. And, look at how
            > >
            > > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
            > >
            > > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
            > >
            > > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
            > >
            > > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
            > > D
            > >
            > > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
            > >
            > > under Klemp's rule(s)!
            > >
            > > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
            > >
            > > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
            > >
            > > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
            > >
            > > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
            > >
            > > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
            > >
            > > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
            > >
            > > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
            > >
            > > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
            > >
            > > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
            > >
            > > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
            > >
            > > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
            > >
            > > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
            > >
            > > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
            > >
            > > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
            > >
            > > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
            > >
            > > Plane!
            > >
            > > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
            > >
            > > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
            > >
            > > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
            > >
            > > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
            > >
            > > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
            > >
            > > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
            > >
            > > Etznab wrote:
            > >
            > > I would like to know the difference between
            > >
            > > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
            > >
            > > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
            > >
            > > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
            > >
            > > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
            > >
            > > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
            > > D
            > >
            > > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
            > >
            > > This is something I've been contemplating
            > >
            > > for some time: What is different with the two
            > >
            > > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
            > >
            > > about this subject).
            > >
            > > There's another thing on this subject, and it
            > >
            > > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
            > >
            > > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
            > >
            > > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
            > >
            > > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
            > >
            > > any of the other lower world bodies where there
            > >
            > > are many different ones - including the physical
            > >
            > > body.
            > >
            > > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
            > >
            > > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
            > >
            > > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
            > >
            > > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
            > >
            > > Something like another dimension.
            > >
            > > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
            > >
            > > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
            > >
            > > the Living Eck Master become so important?
            > >
            > > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
            > >
            > > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
            > >
            > > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
            > >
            > > understanding is that the astral body is limited
            > >
            > > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
            > >
            > > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
            > >
            > > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
            > >
            > > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
            > >
            > > it reads like that was his first vis
            > > it. However, in
            > >
            > > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
            > >
            > > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
            > >
            > > already!
            > >
            > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
            > >
            > > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
            > >
            > > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
            > >
            > > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
            > >
            > > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
            > >
            > > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
            > >
            > > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
            > >
            > > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
            > >
            > > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
            > >
            > > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
            > >
            > > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
            > >
            > > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
            > >
            > > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
            > >
            > > Fang account and the year 1957.
            > >
            > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
            > >
            > > I wonder, were those two different books, the
            > >
            > > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
            > >
            > > experience?
            > >
            > > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
            > >
            > > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
            > >
            > > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
            > >
            > > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
            > >
            > > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
            > >
            > > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
            > >
            > > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
            > >
            > > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
            > >
            > > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
            > >
            > > I've
            > > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
            > >
            > > books and read from the beginning, looking at
            > >
            > > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
            > >
            > > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
            > >
            > > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
            > >
            > > had escaped me up until now.
            > >
            > > Etznab
            > >
            > > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
            > >
            > > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
            > >
            > > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
            > >
            > > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
            > >
            > > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
            > >
            > > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
            > >
            > > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
            > >
            > > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
            > >
            > > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
            > >
            > > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
            > >
            > > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
            > >
            > > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
            > >
            > > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
            > >
            > > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
            > >
            > > teach and other "believers" experience!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
            > >
            > > Hello All,
            > >
            > > It was bad enough that HK sold
            > >
            > > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
            > >
            > > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
            > >
            > > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
            > > 0D
            > >
            > > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
            > >
            > > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
            > >
            > > The truth has (once again) been
            > >
            > > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
            > >
            > > no doubt, likes this rendition because
            > >
            > > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
            > >
            > > this drawing looks more "sketch"
            > >
            > > like than portrait like!
            > >
            > > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
            > >
            > > a more modern, shaved look, and
            > >
            > > does not appear as thin as it really
            > >
            > > is (the inside portion of his ear is
            > >
            > > different too).
            > >
            > > When looking at the front cover photo,
            > >
            > > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
            > >
            > > World of ECKankar" we can see that
            > >
            > > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
            > >
            > > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
            > >
            > > makes Klemp look younger.
            > >
            > > The question ECKists should be asking is,
            > >
            > > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
            > >
            > > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
            > >
            > > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
            > >
            > > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
            > >
            > > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
            > >
            > > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
            > >
            > > I think it's funny that Klemp names
            > >
            > > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
            > >
            > > a "true friend" say such nasty
            > > and mean
            > >
            > > things to you? These RESAs and other
            > >
            > > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
            > >
            > > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
            > >
            > > now they see that there are strings
            > >
            > > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
            > >
            > > ship.
            > >
            > > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
            > >
            > > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
            > >
            > > himself, or give it to you... free of
            > >
            > > charge? Hmmmmmm.
            > >
            > > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
            > >
            > > make even more money from his image.
            > >
            > > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
            > >
            > > as though he has a big hole running
            > >
            > > through his head. So, maybe HK could
            > >
            > > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
            > >
            > > The chain would go through his ears!
            > >
            > > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
            > >
            > > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
            > >
            > > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
            > >
            > > he does with portraits, books, etc.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > >
            > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
            > >
            > >
            > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Jay and All, Marman is connected to Klemp because he is an EKist (7th Initiate) and claims to be a long-time friend of HK s. Marman (Doug) is an
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Jay and All,
              Marman is connected to Klemp
              because he is an EKist (7th Initiate)
              and claims to be a long-time friend
              of HK's. Marman (Doug) is an apologist
              for both Klemp and PT, and has a
              following from an EK fringe group.
              Just read some of DM's older dialogue
              and arguments, especially, with David
              Lane. Steve Runfeldt (EK Internet PR
              Guru) is another EK apologist who, also,
              rates a D- when debating (online) with
              David Lane.

              BTW- I think that I first read Jane Roberts'
              books in the early 1970's and once was
              tempted to stop by for a short visit with
              her and her husband in Binghamton (since
              I was passing through at the time). But,
              my passenger didn't want to stop. I got
              the impression from reading her books
              that writing, for Jane, was like a form of
              therapy that helped to give her some sort
              of balance, peace of mind, and meaning
              for her life that helped it all to make sense.
              From her descriptions, about herself, she
              came across as having a lot of nervous
              energy and smoking her cigarettes seemed
              to calm her. 8th Initiate Millie (Workman)
              Moore was much the same, but used the
              spoken word versus the written word.

              BTW-What do you think about Marman's
              TS comments about Rebazar and the Holocaust
              "probably" being myth?

              Prometheus


              Jay wrote:

              Hi Prometheus

              Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word
              but how is Marman connected with HK?..and
              yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
              being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over
              7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence
              of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth
              stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab
              had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking
              back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past
              is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the
              present.

              Jay

              From: prometheus
              Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

              Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
              Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
              fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
              that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
              this is similar to beating a dead horse
              when sorting out the truth from all the
              crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
              distracted from the current, now, happenings
              under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

              Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
              He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
              the hook via his distractions involving
              Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
              avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
              PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
              the lies and myth that Twitchell created
              in order to confuse the issue.

              Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
              but became more and more insane over
              time. And, look at those "creative" people
              in business who have scammed thousands
              of individuals out of their life savings! They
              even scammed hospitals and non-profit
              foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
              Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
              expected from a person who paid to be
              included in "The International Who's Who
              of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
              why do EKists need Klemp when they can
              "create" their own reality/destiny and make
              themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
              Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
              redundant and lives in the past by quoting
              historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
              EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
              with their current views of society and how
              it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
              are these relevant "insights" from these EK
              Masters?

              BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
              a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
              a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
              actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
              truth about Marman's book is that it comes
              much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

              Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
              "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
              that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
              as well!

              As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
              it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
              With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
              said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
              or any other EK Master!

              FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
              This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
              "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
              the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
              the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
              about this "upper region," although, it is referred
              to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
              looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
              happens because asking too many questions shows
              spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
              in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
              comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
              answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
              the same text that contain the conflicting info!
              This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
              works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
              or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
              within the Satsang Society.

              Prometheus

              Jay wrote:

              Dear Etznab

              Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
              its a fictional piece based on the well known
              metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
              I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
              features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
              multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
              in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
              Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
              by clicking on the classes button and then the
              audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
              them in order as not to get confused of what's
              being discussed and explained by Johnson,
              the particular section of Over soul seven and
              Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

              g'luk

              Jay

              >
              >
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > From: Jason

              >
              >

              Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
              >
              Etznab,
              Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
              >
              Prometheus,

              Etznab wrote:
              > No. I haven't.
              >
              > The reference to number seven interests me.
              > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
              > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
              > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
              > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
              > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
              > them all. Like, something on another level, so
              > to speak. Examples:
              >
              > p. 156
              >
              > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
              > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
              > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
              > all!"
              >
              > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
              > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
              > not sure. That quote is on the second page
              > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
              > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
              >
              > For some reason, I'm under the impression
              > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
              > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
              > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
              > the same book.
              >
              > p. 195
              >
              > "When I want to show the world my highest
              > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
              > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
              > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
              > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
              > final for he represents my power in the seven
              > lower worlds."
              >
              > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
              > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
              >
              > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
              > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
              > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
              > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
              > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
              > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
              > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
              >
              > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
              >
              > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
              > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
              > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
              > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
              > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
              > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
              > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
              > book would mention this many and then the
              > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
              > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
              > haste, and will have to go back & check the
              > names of the planes for accuracy.)
              >
              > In the next chapter following that one (THE
              > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
              > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
              > of the chapter:
              >
              > p. 197
              >
              > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
              > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
              > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
              > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
              > you will then know for yourself. [....]
              >
              > p. 199
              >
              > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
              > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
              > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
              > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
              > creations throughout the seven spheres."
              >
              > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
              > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
              > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
              > other time mentions seven spheres.
              >
              > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
              > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
              > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
              > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
              >
              > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
              > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
              > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
              > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
              > a total of only seven planets.
              >
              > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
              > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
              > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
              > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
              > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
              > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
              > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
              > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
              > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
              > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
              > was already known to history? How much was in
              > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
              > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
              > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
              > how much of the material had actually come direct
              > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
              > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
              >
              > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
              > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
              > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
              > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
              >
              > Etznab
              >
            • etznab@aol.com
              I m not so sure the past is a dead horse . In fact, I would call it very much alive and is the basis for many people s present & future beliefs about numerous
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".
                In fact, I would call it very much alive and is
                the basis for many people's present & future
                beliefs about numerous things.

                Going back and clarifying the past is what
                I am seeking to do, by isolating the context
                of those many stories I have read and heard
                told in Eckankar books and discussions.

                This is something I've been wanting to do
                for a long time. Establish the "context". For
                example, What is the literal truth and what
                is not?

                Here is why I think this important. When I
                can prove beyond a doubt that something is
                fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that
                regard. It's power over me would not be the
                same, not have the same influence & power
                over my belief system and psyche as some-
                thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With
                myth and fiction - knowing a source is that -
                it leaves me with the liberty to explore further
                and to learn how the story came about in the
                first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the
                people who take pseudo religion and history
                to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.
                I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &
                infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my
                conscience, living with the thought I am know-
                ingly spreading fact for fiction.

                BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.
                I'm just now getting around to reading mail.

                Etznab





                -----Original Message-----
                From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                Soul "Body"








                Hi Prometheus

                Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman
                connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just
                mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane
                Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had
                in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a
                dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk
                in the present.

                Jay

                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                "Body"













                Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,

                Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's

                fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam

                that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that

                this is similar to beating a dead horse

                when sorting out the truth from all the

                crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be

                distracted from the current, now, happenings

                under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.


                =0
                A
                Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.

                He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off

                the hook via his distractions involving

                Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,

                avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon

                PT's "creative writing" by manipulating

                the lies and myth that Twitchell created

                in order to confuse the issue.



                Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,

                but became more and more insane over

                time. And, look at those "creative" people

                in business who have scammed thousands

                of individuals out of their life savings! They

                even scammed hospitals and non-profit

                foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!

                Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's

                expected from a person who paid to be

                included in "The International Who's Who

                of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,

                why do EKists need Klemp when they can

                "create" their own reality/destiny and make

                themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a

                Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is

                redundant and lives in the past by quoting

                historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote

                EK Masters, still living in a physical body,

                with their current views of society and how

                it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where

                are these relevant "insights" from these EK

                Masters?



                BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote

                a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes

                a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,

                actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real

                truth about Marman's book is that it comes

                much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that

                "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and

                that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"

                as well!



                As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"

                it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues

                With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever

                said/written about his discussions with Rebazar

                or any other EK Master!



                FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!

                This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the

                "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as

                the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as

                the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned

                about this "upper region," although, it is referred

                to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-

                looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This

                happens because asking too many questions shows

                spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and

                in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"

                comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for

                answers. However, all "answers" must agree with

                the same text that contain the conflicting info!

                This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma

                works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,

                or they're Black Ball
                ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"

                within the Satsang Society.



                Prometheus



                Jay wrote:



                Dear Etznab



                Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,

                its a fictional piece based on the well known

                metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..

                I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson

                features it as part of his hypothesis as us having

                multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,

                in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher

                Consciousness Society website. You'll find them

                by clicking on the classes button and then the

                audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to

                them in order as not to get confused of what's

                being discussed and explained by Johnson,

                the particular section of Over soul seven and

                Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                g'luk



                Jay



                >

                >

                >

                > ____________ _________ _________ __

                > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                >

                >



                Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                >

                Etznab,

                Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                >

                Prometheus,



                Etznab wrote:

                > No. I haven't.

                >

                > The reference to number seven interests me.

                > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are

                > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v
                ersion of

                > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave

                > me the impression of eight basic planes, where

                > the eighth (and highest) was considered above

                > them all. Like, something on another level, so

                > to speak. Examples:

                >

                > p. 156

                >

                > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet

                > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres

                > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear

                > all!"

                >

                > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,

                > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm

                > not sure. That quote is on the second page

                > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.

                > Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                >

                > For some reason, I'm under the impression

                > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from

                > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the

                > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in

                > the same book.

                >

                > p. 195

                >

                > "When I want to show the world my highest

                > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.

                > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the

                > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will

                > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree

                > final for he represents my power in the seven

                > lower worlds."

                >

                > [That was fro
                m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.

                > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                >

                > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in

                > my earlier post. The being supposed to have

                > spoken those words was either Anami, or the

                > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could

                > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that

                > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.

                > Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                >

                > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                >

                > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.

                > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?

                > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental

                > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami

                > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but

                > I suspect the earlier models had around eight

                > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's

                > book would mention this many and then the

                > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give

                > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative

                > haste, and will have to go back & check the

                > names of the planes for accuracy.)

                >

                > In the next chapter following that one (THE

                > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs

                > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph

                > of the chapter:

                >

                > p. 1
                97

                >

                > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take

                > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond

                > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth

                > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So

                > you will then know for yourself. [....]

                >

                > p. 199

                >

                > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,

                > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are

                > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must

                > serve to take the message of the divine to all my

                > creations throughout the seven spheres."

                >

                > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And

                > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,

                > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-

                > other time mentions seven spheres.

                >

                > It was the context from those chapters that gave me

                > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",

                > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a

                > place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                >

                > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.

                > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to

                > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even

                > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in

                > a total of only seven planets.

                >

                > As I begin re
                ading through the Eck books again -

                > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious

                > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,

                > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing

                > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's

                > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to

                > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand

                > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was

                > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                > materials. Like, how much of it was material that

                > was already known to history? How much was in

                > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D

                > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?

                > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,

                > how much of the material had actually come direct

                > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens

                > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                >

                > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and

                > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,

                > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with

                > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                >

                > Etznab

                >

                > -----Original Message-----

                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>

                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20
                09 1:41 pm

                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.
                the Soul

                > "Body"

                >

                > Hello Etznab,

                >

                > You make some good points and have

                >

                > brought up more information to point

                >

                > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                >

                > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                >

                > and D.W.T.M. later.

                >

                > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                >

                > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                >

                > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                >

                > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                >

                > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                >

                > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                >

                > overlook this point. And, look at how

                >

                > many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                >

                > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                >

                > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                >

                > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0

                > D

                >

                > Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                >

                > under Klemp's rule(s)!

                >

                > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                >

                > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                >

                > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                >

                > Over-Soul and that
                these Souls need to

                >

                > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                >

                > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                >

                > being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                >

                > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                >

                > by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                >

                > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                >

                > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                >

                > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                >

                > Prometheus

                >

                > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                >

                > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                >

                > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                >

                > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                >

                > Plane!

                >

                > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                >

                > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                >

                > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                >

                > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                >

                > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                >

                > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                >

                > Etznab wrote:

                >

                > I would like to know the difference between

                >

                > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                >

                > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                >

                > about the inner=2
                0form of the Living Eck Master.

                >

                > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                >

                > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0

                > D

                >

                > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                >

                > This is something I've been contemplating

                >

                > for some time: What is different with the two

                >

                > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                >

                > about this subject).

                >

                > There's another thing on this subject, and it

                >

                > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                >

                > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                >

                > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                >

                > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                >

                > any of the other lower world bodies where there

                >

                > are many different ones - including the physical

                >

                > body.

                >

                > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                >

                > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                >

                > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                >

                > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                >

                > Something like another dimension.

                >

                > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                >

                > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                >

                > the L
                iving Eck Master become so important?

                >

                > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                >

                > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                >

                > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                >

                > understanding is that the astral body is limited

                >

                > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                >

                > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                >

                > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                >

                > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                >

                > it reads like that was his first vis

                > it. However, in

                >

                > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                >

                > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                >

                > already!

                >

                > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                >

                > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                >

                > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                >

                > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                >

                > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                >

                > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                >

                > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                >

                > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                >

                > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                >

                > the way to the nameless
                plane. Anami. & not

                >

                > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                >

                > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                >

                > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                >

                > Fang account and the year 1957.

                >

                > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                >

                > I wonder, were those two different books, the

                >

                > two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                >

                > experience?

                >

                > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                >

                > online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                >

                > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                >

                > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                >

                > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                >

                > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                >

                > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                >

                > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                >

                > A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                >

                > I've

                > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                >

                > books and read from the beginning, looking at

                >

                > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                >

                > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                >

                > this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                >

                > had20escaped me up until now.

                >

                > Etznab

                >

                > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                >

                > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                >

                > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                >

                > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                >

                > or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                >

                > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                >

                > of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                >

                > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                >

                > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                >

                > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                >

                > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                >

                > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                >

                > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                >

                > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                >

                > teach and other "believers" experience!

                >

                > Prometheus

                >

                > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                >

                > Hello All,

                >

                > It was bad enough that HK sold

                >

                > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                >

                > portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                >

                > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).

                > 0D

                >

                > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                =0
                A
                >

                > portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                >

                > The truth has (once again) been

                >

                > embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                >

                > no doubt, likes this rendition because

                >

                > it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                >

                > this drawing looks more "sketch"

                >

                > like than portrait like!

                >

                > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                >

                > a more modern, shaved look, and

                >

                > does not appear as thin as it really

                >

                > is (the inside portion of his ear is

                >

                > different too).

                >

                > When looking at the front cover photo,

                >

                > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                >

                > World of ECKankar" we can see that

                >

                > Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                >

                > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                >

                > makes Klemp look younger.

                >

                > The question ECKists should be asking is,

                >

                > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                >

                > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                >

                > followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                >

                > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                >

                > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                >

                > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0
                D

                >

                > I think it's funny that Klemp names

                >

                > this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                >

                > a "true friend" say such nasty

                > and mean

                >

                > things to you? These RESAs and other

                >

                > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                >

                > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                >

                > now they see that there are strings

                >

                > attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                >

                > ship.

                >

                > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                >

                > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                >

                > himself, or give it to you... free of

                >

                > charge? Hmmmmmm.

                >

                > On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                >

                > make even more money from his image.

                >

                > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                >

                > as though he has a big hole running

                >

                > through his head. So, maybe HK could

                >

                > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                >

                > The chain would go through his ears!

                >

                > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                >

                > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                >

                > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                >

                > he does with portraits, books, etc.

                >

                > Prometheus

                >

                &
                gt;

                > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                .yahoo.com

                >

                >

                > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                .yahoo.com

                >











                Send instant messages to your online friends
                http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
              • etznab@aol.com
                Typo correction. The following sentence I don t have to have guilt on my conscience, living with the thought I am knowingly spreading fact for fiction.
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Typo correction. The following sentence

                  "I don't have to have guilt on my conscience,
                  living with the thought I am knowingly spreading
                  fact for fiction."

                  should read: fiction for fact, instead of fact
                  for fiction.

                  Etznab

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: etznab@...
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 6:47 pm
                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                  Soul "Body"










                  I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".

                  In fact, I would call it very much alive and is

                  the basis for many people's present & future

                  beliefs about numerous things.



                  Going back and clarifying the past is what

                  I am seeking to do, by isolating the context

                  of those many stories I have read and heard

                  told in Eckankar books and discussions.



                  This is something I've been wanting to do

                  for a long time. Establish the "context". For

                  example, What is the literal truth and what

                  is not?



                  Here is why I think this important. When I

                  can prove beyond a doubt that something is

                  fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that

                  regard. It's power over me would not be the

                  same, not have the same influence & power

                  over my belief system and psyche as some-

                  thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With

                  myth and fiction - knowing a source is that
                  -

                  it leaves me with the liberty to explore further

                  and to learn how the story came about in the

                  first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the

                  people who take pseudo religion and history

                  to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.

                  I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &

                  infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my

                  conscience, living with the thought I am know-

                  ingly spreading fact for fiction.



                  BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.

                  I'm just now getting around to reading mail.



                  Etznab



                  -----Original Message-----

                  From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                  Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm

                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the

                  Soul "Body"



                  Hi Prometheus



                  Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman

                  connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff

                  being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just

                  mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane

                  Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had

                  in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a

                  dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk

                  in the present.



                  Jay



                  =0
                  AFrom: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                  Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08

                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul

                  "Body"



                  Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,



                  Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's



                  fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam



                  that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that



                  this is similar to beating a dead horse



                  when sorting out the truth from all the



                  crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be



                  distracted from the current, now, happenings



                  under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.



                  =0

                  A

                  Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.



                  He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off



                  the hook via his distractions involving



                  Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,



                  avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon



                  PT's "creative writing" by manipulating



                  the lies and myth that Twitchell created



                  in order to confuse the issue.



                  Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,



                  but became more and more insane over



                  time. And, look at those "creative" people



                  in business who have scammed thousands



                  of individuals out of their life savings! They



                  even scammed hospitals and non-profit



                  foundations!
                  Very "creative" weren't they!



                  Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's



                  expected from a person who paid to be



                  included in "The International Who's Who



                  of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,



                  why do EKists need Klemp when they can



                  "create" their own reality/destiny and make



                  themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a



                  Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is



                  redundant and lives in the past by quoting



                  historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote



                  EK Masters, still living in a physical body,



                  with their current views of society and how



                  it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where



                  are these relevant "insights" from these EK



                  Masters?



                  BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote



                  a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes



                  a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,



                  actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real



                  truth about Marman's book is that it comes



                  much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                  Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that



                  "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and



                  that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"



                  as well!



                  As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"



                  it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues




                  With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever



                  said/written about his discussions with Rebazar



                  or any other EK Master!



                  FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!



                  This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the



                  "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as



                  the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as



                  the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned



                  about this "upper region," although, it is referred



                  to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-



                  looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This



                  happens because asking too many questions shows



                  spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and



                  in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"



                  comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for



                  answers. However, all "answers" must agree with



                  the same text that contain the conflicting info!



                  This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma



                  works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,



                  or they're Black Ball

                  ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"



                  within the Satsang Society.



                  Prometheus



                  Jay wrote:



                  Dear Etznab



                  Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,



                  its a fictional piece based on the well20known



                  metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..



                  I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson



                  features it as part of his hypothesis as us having



                  multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,



                  in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher



                  Consciousness Society website. You'll find them



                  by clicking on the classes button and then the



                  audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to



                  them in order as not to get confused of what's



                  being discussed and explained by Johnson,



                  the particular section of Over soul seven and



                  Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                  g'luk



                  Jay



                  >



                  >



                  >



                  > ____________ _________ _________ __



                  > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                  >



                  >



                  Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                  >



                  Etznab,



                  Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                  >



                  Prometheus,



                  Etznab wrote:



                  > No. I haven't.



                  >



                  > The reference to number seven interests me.



                  > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are



                  > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v

                  ersion of=0
                  D



                  > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave



                  > me the impression of eight basic planes, where



                  > the eighth (and highest) was considered above



                  > them all. Like, something on another level, so



                  > to speak. Examples:



                  >



                  > p. 156



                  >



                  > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet



                  > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres



                  > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear



                  > all!"



                  >



                  > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,



                  > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm



                  > not sure. That quote is on the second page



                  > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.



                  > Question: Why does he mention seven?]



                  >



                  > For some reason, I'm under the impression



                  > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from



                  > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the



                  > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in



                  > the same book.



                  >



                  > p. 195



                  >



                  > "When I want to show the world my highest



                  > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.



                  > This is my greatest gift and boon.=2
                  0He is the



                  > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will



                  > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree



                  > final for he represents my power in the seven



                  > lower worlds."



                  >



                  > [That was fro

                  m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.



                  > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the



                  >



                  > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in



                  > my earlier post. The being supposed to have



                  > spoken those words was either Anami, or the



                  > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could



                  > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that



                  > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.



                  > Consider the last seven words in that quote:



                  >



                  > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."



                  >



                  > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.



                  > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?



                  > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental



                  > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami



                  > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but



                  > I suspect the earlier models had around eight



                  > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's



                  > book=2
                  0would mention this many and then the



                  > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give



                  > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative



                  > haste, and will have to go back & check the



                  > names of the planes for accuracy.)



                  >



                  > In the next chapter following that one (THE



                  > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs



                  > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph



                  > of the chapter:



                  >



                  > p. 1

                  97



                  >



                  > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take



                  > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond



                  > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth



                  > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So



                  > you will then know for yourself. [....]



                  >



                  > p. 199



                  >



                  > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,



                  > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are



                  > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must



                  > serve to take the message of the divine to all my



                  > creations throughout the seven spheres."



                  >



                  > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And



                  > by non
                  e other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,



                  > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-



                  > other time mentions seven spheres.



                  >



                  > It was the context from those chapters that gave me



                  > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",



                  > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a



                  > place "above" them and making a total of eight.



                  >



                  > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.



                  > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to



                  > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even



                  > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in



                  > a total of only seven planets.



                  >



                  > As I begin re

                  ading through the Eck books again -



                  > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious



                  > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,



                  > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing



                  > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's



                  > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to



                  > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand



                  > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was



                  > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                  =0
                  D

                  > materials. Like, how much of it was material that



                  > was already known to history? How much was in



                  > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D



                  > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?



                  > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,



                  > how much of the material had actually come direct



                  > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens



                  > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?



                  >



                  > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and



                  > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,



                  > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with



                  > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.



                  >



                  > Etznab



                  >



                  > -----Original Message-----



                  > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>



                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com



                  > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20

                  09 1:41 pm



                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.

                  the Soul



                  > "Body"



                  >



                  > Hello Etznab,



                  >



                  > You make some good points and have



                  >



                  > brought up more information to point



                  =0
                  A>



                  > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.



                  >



                  > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"



                  >



                  > and D.W.T.M. later.



                  >



                  > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra



                  >



                  > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;



                  >



                  > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th



                  >



                  > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"



                  >



                  > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral



                  >



                  > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to



                  >



                  > overlook this point. And, look at how



                  >



                  > many years Klemp has instructed EKists



                  >



                  > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/



                  >



                  > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra



                  >



                  > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0



                  > D



                  >



                  > Chakra is still being used after 28 years



                  >



                  > under Klemp's rule(s)!



                  >



                  > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is



                  >



                  > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There



                  >



                  > is a belief that Groups
                  of Souls have an



                  >



                  > Over-Soul and that

                  these Souls need to



                  >



                  > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)



                  >



                  > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/



                  >



                  > being that same Over-Soul which, then,



                  >



                  > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can



                  >



                  > by-pass the hierarchy and can become



                  >



                  > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,



                  >



                  > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have



                  >



                  > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                  >



                  > Prometheus



                  >



                  > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI



                  >



                  > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is



                  >



                  > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"



                  >



                  > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th



                  >



                  > Plane!



                  >



                  > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"



                  >



                  > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,



                  >



                  > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect



                  >



                  > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "
                  advanced"



                  >



                  > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"



                  >



                  > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



                  >



                  > Etznab wrote:



                  >



                  > I would like to know the difference between



                  >



                  > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,



                  >



                  > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something



                  >



                  > about the inner=2

                  0form of the Living Eck Master.



                  >



                  > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called



                  >



                  > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0



                  > D



                  >



                  > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



                  >



                  > This is something I've been contemplating



                  >



                  > for some time: What is different with the two



                  >



                  > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me



                  >



                  > about this subject).



                  >



                  > There's another thing on this subject, and it



                  >



                  > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,



                  >



                  > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided



                  >



                  > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the




                  >



                  > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,



                  >



                  > any of the other lower world bodies where there



                  >



                  > are many different ones - including the physical



                  >



                  > body.



                  >



                  > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma



                  >



                  > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is



                  >



                  > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul



                  >



                  > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.



                  >



                  > Something like another dimension.



                  >



                  > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?



                  >



                  > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of



                  >



                  > the L

                  iving Eck Master become so important?



                  >



                  > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled



                  >



                  > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that



                  >



                  > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My



                  >



                  > understanding is that the astral body is limited



                  >



                  > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup



                  >



                  > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one=2
                  0would have



                  >



                  > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



                  >



                  > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book



                  >



                  > it reads like that was his first vis



                  > it. However, in



                  >



                  > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The



                  >



                  > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice



                  >



                  > already!



                  >



                  > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                  >



                  > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the



                  >



                  > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.



                  >



                  > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the



                  >



                  > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and



                  >



                  > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after



                  >



                  > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul



                  >



                  > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)



                  >



                  > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all



                  >



                  > the way to the nameless

                  plane. Anami. & not



                  >



                  > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem



                  >



                  &
                  gt; quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-



                  >



                  > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's



                  >



                  > Fang account and the year 1957.



                  >



                  > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                  >



                  > I wonder, were those two different books, the



                  >



                  > two different manuscripts, about the same basic



                  >



                  > experience?



                  >



                  > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an



                  >



                  > online version of The Path of the Masters? by



                  >



                  > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter



                  >



                  > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the



                  >



                  > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The



                  >



                  > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257



                  >



                  > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami



                  >



                  > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:



                  >



                  > A Talk With Rami Nuri.



                  >



                  > I've



                  > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early



                  >



                  > books and read from the beginning, looking at



                  >


                  0D
                  > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over



                  >



                  > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at



                  >



                  > this point in time. I'm discovering things that



                  >



                  > had20escaped me up until now.



                  >



                  > Etznab



                  >



                  > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                  >



                  > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



                  >



                  > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



                  >



                  > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



                  >



                  > or contemplate upon his Physical image via



                  >



                  > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



                  >



                  > of an Astral image. How is this the same as



                  >



                  > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



                  >



                  > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



                  >



                  > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



                  >



                  > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



                  >



                  > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



                  >



                  > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



                  >



                  > of the Lower Planes=2
                  0just as all other religions



                  >



                  > teach and other "believers" experience!



                  >



                  > Prometheus



                  >



                  > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



                  >



                  > Hello All,



                  >



                  > It was bad enough that HK sold



                  >



                  > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



                  >



                  > portrait. Now he's selling the "True



                  >



                  > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



                  > 0D



                  >



                  > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                  =0

                  A

                  >



                  > portrait accurately? No, not quite!



                  >



                  > The truth has (once again) been



                  >



                  > embellished and distorted! Klemp,



                  >



                  > no doubt, likes this rendition because



                  >



                  > it makes him appear younger. Thus,



                  >



                  > this drawing looks more "sketch"



                  >



                  > like than portrait like!



                  >



                  > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



                  >



                  > a more modern, shaved look, and



                  >



                  > does not appear as thin as it really



                  >



                  > is (t
                  he inside portion of his ear is



                  >



                  > different too).



                  >



                  > When looking at the front cover photo,



                  >



                  > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



                  >



                  > World of ECKankar" we can see that



                  >



                  > Klemp parts his hair on the side and



                  >



                  > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



                  >



                  > makes Klemp look younger.



                  >



                  > The question ECKists should be asking is,



                  >



                  > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



                  >



                  > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



                  >



                  > followers all want to "imagine" that they look



                  >



                  > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



                  >



                  > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



                  >



                  > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0

                  D



                  >



                  > I think it's funny that Klemp names



                  >



                  > this new portrait "True Friend." Would



                  >



                  > a "true friend" say such nasty



                  > and mean



                  >



                  > things to you? These RESAs and ot
                  her



                  >



                  > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



                  >



                  > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



                  >



                  > now they see that there are strings



                  >



                  > attached and that it's a one-way friend-



                  >



                  > ship.



                  >



                  > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



                  >



                  > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



                  >



                  > himself, or give it to you... free of



                  >



                  > charge? Hmmmmmm.



                  >



                  > On another note, I saw how Klemp can



                  >



                  > make even more money from his image.



                  >



                  > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



                  >



                  > as though he has a big hole running



                  >



                  > through his head. So, maybe HK could



                  >



                  > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



                  >



                  > The chain would go through his ears!



                  >



                  > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



                  >



                  > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK



                  >



                  > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



                  >


                  =0
                  A
                  > he does with portraits, books, etc.



                  >



                  > Prometheus



                  >



                  &

                  gt;



                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                  .yahoo.com



                  >



                  >



                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                  .yahoo.com



                  >



                  Send instant messages to your online friends

                  http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.