Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

Expand Messages
  • Jason Mc Dermott
    Hi Prometheus Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y know somewhere to
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Prometheus

      Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y'know somewhere to start..interesting line of inquiry though. Also thanks for the detail on becoming a 5th initiate I never really looked into it though. The sites great with all the files you've put up..great help.

      Thanks again

      Jay




      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 5:02:45
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

      Hello Jay,
      Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
      you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
      been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
      archives), and there are Links and Files,
      also, that show and discuss many of these
      subjects as well. However, the main focus
      of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
      this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
      positioned himself to inherit it and how
      he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
      continue the lies, myth, and the belief
      systems (fear and faith) that all religions
      use. - P.

      Jay wrote:
      Dear Etznab

      >
      I my self am doing similar in studying back
      over the shariyat's to see how much of these
      two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
      me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
      But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
      vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
      at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
      he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
      Then of course there are the number of books
      written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
      on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
      the story on this enigma of a man:
      >
      The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
      of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
      >
      P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
      not actually contain "the whole truth"
      and that much is just a rehash of his
      previous opinions and speculations]
      >
      The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
      >
      P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
      denounced Klemp and his own book about
      his "Mahanta" experiences. ]
      >
      Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
      >
      P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
      spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
      who took his place]
      >
      The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
      though the above books have helped move
      on from some of his theories and material,
      but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
      He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
      book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
      just type his name in and you'll find it.
      >
      P: *[David started the ball rolling]
      >
      Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
      to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
      of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
      he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
      to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
      on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
      the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
      set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
      with others..they' re quite good.
      >
      Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
      of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
      its on you tube the link is
      >
      http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego& feature=related
      >
      As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
      girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
      apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
      the website is
      >
      http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html
      >
      Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
      of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
      when kicked out of Eck.
      >
      P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
      Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
      >
      Also as you may know there are a few other off
      shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
      actually can't remember him.. should have book
      marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
      he has his own line of past masters. Another
      guy who will mail you intro material is Master
      Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
      >
      I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
      haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
      I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
      hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
      far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
      perspective of where I may be going next. What
      really makes his insights for us all stand out are
      two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
      in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
      master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
      all the time his students said he was with them
      on the inner planes and how they would praise
      him for his place in their spiritual development,
      he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
      nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
      students on the inner planes...I mean come on
      how profound is this.
      >
      Though we are on the intellectual level only with
      all this talk..it is basic and important though.
      I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
      I've practised the HU chant all this time and
      studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
      of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
      i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
      or ignored the possible science of the brain that
      maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
      to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd
      initiate always told it was my choice, though
      I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
      be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
      >
      >
      P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
      under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
      professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
      you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
      (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
      do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
      >
      >
      I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
      and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
      remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
      >
      Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
      of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
      >
      http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html
      >
      hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
      >
      Jay


      >
      > From: etznab
      >
      > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
      >
      > Prometheus,
      >
      > No. I haven't.
      >
      > The reference to number seven interests me.
      > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
      > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
      > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
      > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
      > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
      > them all. Like, something on another level, so
      > to speak. Examples:
      >
      > p. 156
      >
      > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
      > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
      > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
      > all!"
      >
      > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
      > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
      > not sure. That quote is on the second page
      > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
      > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
      >
      > For some reason, I'm under the impression
      > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
      > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
      > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
      > the same book.
      >
      > p. 195
      >
      > "When I want to show the world my highest
      > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
      > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
      > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
      > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
      > final for he represents my power in the seven
      > lower worlds."
      >
      > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
      > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
      >
      > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
      > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
      > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
      > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
      > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
      > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
      > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
      >
      > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
      >
      > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
      > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
      > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
      > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
      > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
      > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
      > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
      > book would mention this many and then the
      > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
      > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
      > haste, and will have to go back & check the
      > names of the planes for accuracy.)
      >
      > In the next chapter following that one (THE
      > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
      > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
      > of the chapter:
      >
      > p. 197
      >
      > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
      > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
      > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
      > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
      > you will then know for yourself. [....]
      >
      > p. 199
      >
      > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
      > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
      > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
      > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
      > creations throughout the seven spheres."
      >
      > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
      > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
      > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
      > other time mentions seven spheres.
      >
      > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
      > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
      > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
      > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
      >
      > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
      > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
      > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
      > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
      > a total of only seven planets.
      >
      > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
      > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
      > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
      > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
      > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
      > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
      > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
      > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
      > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
      > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
      > was already known to history? How much was in
      > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
      > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
      > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
      > how much of the material had actually come direct
      > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
      > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
      >
      > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
      > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
      > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
      > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
      >
      > Etznab
      >
      >
      > Hello Etznab,
      >
      > You make some good points and have
      >
      > brought up more information to point
      >
      > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
      >
      > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
      >
      > and D.W.T.M. later.
      >
      >
      > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
      >
      > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
      >
      > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
      >
      > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
      >
      > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
      >
      > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
      >
      > overlook this point. And, look at how
      >
      > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
      >
      > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
      >
      > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
      >
      > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
      >
      > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
      >
      > under Klemp's rule(s)!
      >
      >
      > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
      >
      > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
      >
      > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
      >
      > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
      >
      > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
      >
      > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
      >
      > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
      >
      > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
      >
      > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
      >
      > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
      >
      > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
      >
      > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
      >
      > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
      >
      > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
      >
      > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
      >
      > Plane!
      >
      > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
      >
      > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
      >
      > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
      >
      > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
      >
      > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
      >
      > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
      >


      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
    • Jason Mc Dermott
      Dear Etznab Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I ve just come
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Etznab

         Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson features it as part of his hypothesis as us having multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher Consciousness Society website. You'll find them by clicking on the classes button and then the audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to them in order as not to get confused of what's being discussed and explained by Johnson,the particular section of Over soul seven and Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

        g'luk

        Jay


        From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 15:03:04
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

        Dear Etznab

        I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                   The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                    Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
        The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

        Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they' re quite good.

        Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
        As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

         Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

        I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

        Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

        I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

        Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
        http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html

        hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

        Jay




        From: "etznab@aol. com" <etznab@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

        Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

        Prometheus,

        No. I haven't.

        The reference to number seven interests me.
        Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
        mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
        Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
        me the impression of eight basic planes, where
        the eighth (and highest) was considered above
        them all. Like, something on another level, so
        to speak. Examples:

        p. 156

        "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
        of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
        of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
        all!"

        [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
        during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
        not sure. That quote is on the second page
        of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
        Question: Why does he mention seven?]

        For some reason, I'm under the impression
        that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
        a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
        8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
        the same book.

        p. 195

        "When I want to show the world my highest
        grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
        This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
        sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
        is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
        final for he represents my power in the seven
        lower worlds."

        [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
        I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

        Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
        my earlier post. The being supposed to have
        spoken those words was either Anami, or the
        SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
        have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
        story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
        Consider the last seven words in that quote:

        ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

        I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
        Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
        (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
        (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
        Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
        I suspect the earlier models had around eight
        planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
        book would mention this many and then the
        1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
        a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
        haste, and will have to go back & check the
        names of the planes for accuracy.)

        In the next chapter following that one (THE
        SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
        go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
        of the chapter:

        p. 197

        Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
        you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
        into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
        of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
        you will then know for yourself. [....]

        p. 199

        "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
        speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
        among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
        serve to take the message of the divine to all my
        creations throughout the seven spheres."

        Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
        by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
        once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
        other time mentions seven spheres.

        It was the context from those chapters that gave me
        the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
        etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
        place "above" them and making a total of eight.

        I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
        Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
        be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
        during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
        a total of only seven planets.

        As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
        starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
        notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
        when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
        and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
        1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
        take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
        the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
        (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
        materials. Like, how much of it was material that
        was already known to history? How much was in
        the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
        How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
        How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
        how much of the material had actually come direct
        from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
        (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

        This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
        so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
        history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
        other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
        "Body"

        Hello Etznab,

        You make some good points and have

        brought up more information to point

        out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

        I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

        and D.W.T.M. later.

        It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

        Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

        Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

        Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

        their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

        "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

        overlook this point. And, look at how

        many years Klemp has instructed EKists

        to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

        singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

        is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
        D

        Chakra is still being used after 28 years

        under Klemp's rule(s)!

        BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

        actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

        is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

        Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

        become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

        or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

        being that same Over-Soul which, then,

        becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

        by-pass the hierarchy and can become

        "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

        on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

        you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

        Prometheus

        p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

        LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

        where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

        resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

        Plane!

        Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

        thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

        Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

        with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

        Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

        [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

        Etznab wrote:

        I would like to know the difference between

        Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

        the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

        about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

        The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

        a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
        D

        Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

        This is something I've been contemplating

        for some time: What is different with the two

        types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

        about this subject).

        There's another thing on this subject, and it

        has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

        I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

        body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

        Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

        any of the other lower world bodies where there

        are many different ones - including the physical

        body.

        So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

        Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

        only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

        Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

        Something like another dimension.

        Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

        and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

        the Living Eck Master become so important?

        Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

        to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

        the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

        understanding is that the astral body is limited

        to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

        transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

        to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

        Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

        it reads like that was his first vis
        it. However, in

        the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

        Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

        already!

        ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

        A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

        Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

        to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

        D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

        T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

        getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

        Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

        Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

        the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

        only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

        quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

        Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

        Fang account and the year 1957.

        ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

        I wonder, were those two different books, the

        two different manuscripts, about the same basic

        experience?

        BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

        online version of The Path of the Masters? by

        Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

        entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

        Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

        Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

        on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

        Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

        A Talk With Rami Nuri.

        I've
        decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

        books and read from the beginning, looking at

        how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

        the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

        this point in time. I'm discovering things that

        had escaped me up until now.

        Etznab

        HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

        Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

        is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

        chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

        or contemplate upon his Physical image via

        his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

        of an Astral image. How is this the same as

        meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

        Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

        with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

        than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

        Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

        (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

        of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

        teach and other "believers" experience!

        Prometheus

        Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

        Hello All,

        It was bad enough that HK sold

        his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

        portrait. Now he's selling the "True

        Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
        0D

        But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

        portrait accurately? No, not quite!

        The truth has (once again) been

        embellished and distorted! Klemp,

        no doubt, likes this rendition because

        it makes him appear younger. Thus,

        this drawing looks more "sketch"

        like than portrait like!

        What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

        a more modern, shaved look, and

        does not appear as thin as it really

        is (the inside portion of his ear is

        different too).

        When looking at the front cover photo,

        of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

        World of ECKankar" we can see that

        Klemp parts his hair on the side and

        does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

        makes Klemp look younger.

        The question ECKists should be asking is,

        Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

        are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

        followers all want to "imagine" that they look

        "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

        Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

        rather than having an Astral Plane image!

        I think it's funny that Klemp names

        this new portrait "True Friend." Would

        a "true friend" say such nasty
        and mean

        things to you? These RESAs and other

        H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

        Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

        now they see that there are strings

        attached and that it's a one-way friend-

        ship.

        BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

        you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

        himself, or give it to you... free of

        charge? Hmmmmmm.

        On another note, I saw how Klemp can

        make even more money from his image.

        HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

        as though he has a big hole running

        through his head. So, maybe HK could

        have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

        The chain would go through his ears!

        He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

        $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

        will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

        he does with portraits, books, etc.

        Prometheus


        Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com

        Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Jay, Etznab, and All, Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it s fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that this is
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
          Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
          fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
          that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
          this is similar to beating a dead horse
          when sorting out the truth from all the
          crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
          distracted from the current, now, happenings
          under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

          Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
          He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
          the hook via his distractions involving
          Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
          avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
          PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
          the lies and myth that Twitchell created
          in order to confuse the issue.

          Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
          but became more and more insane over
          time. And, look at those "creative" people
          in business who have scammed thousands
          of individuals out of their life savings! They
          even scammed hospitals and non-profit
          foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
          Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
          expected from a person who paid to be
          included in "The International Who's Who
          of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
          why do EKists need Klemp when they can
          "create" their own reality/destiny and make
          themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
          Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
          redundant and lives in the past by quoting
          historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
          EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
          with their current views of society and how
          it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
          are these relevant "insights" from these EK
          Masters?

          BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
          a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
          a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
          actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
          truth about Marman's book is that it comes
          much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

          Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
          "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
          that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
          as well!

          As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
          it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
          With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
          said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
          or any other EK Master!

          FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
          This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
          "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
          the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
          the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
          about this "upper region," although, it is referred
          to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
          looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
          happens because asking too many questions shows
          spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
          in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
          comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
          answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
          the same text that contain the conflicting info!
          This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
          works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
          or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
          within the Satsang Society.

          Prometheus

          Jay wrote:

          Dear Etznab

          Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
          its a fictional piece based on the well known
          metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
          I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
          features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
          multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
          in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
          Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
          by clicking on the classes button and then the
          audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
          them in order as not to get confused of what's
          being discussed and explained by Johnson,
          the particular section of Over soul seven and
          Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

          g'luk

          Jay

          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

          >
          >

          Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
          >
          Etznab,
          Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
          >
          Prometheus,

          Etznab wrote:
          > No. I haven't.
          >
          > The reference to number seven interests me.
          > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
          > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
          > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
          > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
          > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
          > them all. Like, something on another level, so
          > to speak. Examples:
          >
          > p. 156
          >
          > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
          > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
          > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
          > all!"
          >
          > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
          > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
          > not sure. That quote is on the second page
          > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
          > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
          >
          > For some reason, I'm under the impression
          > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
          > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
          > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
          > the same book.
          >
          > p. 195
          >
          > "When I want to show the world my highest
          > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
          > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
          > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
          > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
          > final for he represents my power in the seven
          > lower worlds."
          >
          > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
          > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
          >
          > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
          > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
          > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
          > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
          > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
          > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
          > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
          >
          > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
          >
          > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
          > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
          > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
          > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
          > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
          > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
          > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
          > book would mention this many and then the
          > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
          > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
          > haste, and will have to go back & check the
          > names of the planes for accuracy.)
          >
          > In the next chapter following that one (THE
          > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
          > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
          > of the chapter:
          >
          > p. 197
          >
          > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
          > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
          > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
          > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
          > you will then know for yourself. [....]
          >
          > p. 199
          >
          > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
          > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
          > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
          > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
          > creations throughout the seven spheres."
          >
          > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
          > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
          > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
          > other time mentions seven spheres.
          >
          > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
          > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
          > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
          > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
          >
          > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
          > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
          > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
          > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
          > a total of only seven planets.
          >
          > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
          > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
          > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
          > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
          > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
          > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
          > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
          > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
          > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
          > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
          > was already known to history? How much was in
          > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
          > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
          > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
          > how much of the material had actually come direct
          > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
          > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
          >
          > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
          > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
          > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
          > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
          >
          > Etznab
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
          > "Body"
          >
          > Hello Etznab,
          >
          > You make some good points and have
          >
          > brought up more information to point
          >
          > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
          >
          > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
          >
          > and D.W.T.M. later.
          >
          > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
          >
          > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
          >
          > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
          >
          > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
          >
          > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
          >
          > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
          >
          > overlook this point. And, look at how
          >
          > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
          >
          > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
          >
          > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
          >
          > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
          > D
          >
          > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
          >
          > under Klemp's rule(s)!
          >
          > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
          >
          > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
          >
          > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
          >
          > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
          >
          > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
          >
          > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
          >
          > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
          >
          > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
          >
          > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
          >
          > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
          >
          > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
          >
          > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
          >
          > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
          >
          > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
          >
          > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
          >
          > Plane!
          >
          > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
          >
          > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
          >
          > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
          >
          > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
          >
          > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
          >
          > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
          >
          > Etznab wrote:
          >
          > I would like to know the difference between
          >
          > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
          >
          > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
          >
          > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
          >
          > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
          >
          > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
          > D
          >
          > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
          >
          > This is something I've been contemplating
          >
          > for some time: What is different with the two
          >
          > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
          >
          > about this subject).
          >
          > There's another thing on this subject, and it
          >
          > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
          >
          > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
          >
          > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
          >
          > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
          >
          > any of the other lower world bodies where there
          >
          > are many different ones - including the physical
          >
          > body.
          >
          > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
          >
          > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
          >
          > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
          >
          > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
          >
          > Something like another dimension.
          >
          > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
          >
          > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
          >
          > the Living Eck Master become so important?
          >
          > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
          >
          > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
          >
          > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
          >
          > understanding is that the astral body is limited
          >
          > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
          >
          > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
          >
          > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
          >
          > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
          >
          > it reads like that was his first vis
          > it. However, in
          >
          > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
          >
          > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
          >
          > already!
          >
          > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
          >
          > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
          >
          > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
          >
          > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
          >
          > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
          >
          > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
          >
          > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
          >
          > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
          >
          > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
          >
          > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
          >
          > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
          >
          > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
          >
          > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
          >
          > Fang account and the year 1957.
          >
          > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
          >
          > I wonder, were those two different books, the
          >
          > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
          >
          > experience?
          >
          > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
          >
          > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
          >
          > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
          >
          > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
          >
          > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
          >
          > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
          >
          > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
          >
          > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
          >
          > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
          >
          > I've
          > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
          >
          > books and read from the beginning, looking at
          >
          > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
          >
          > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
          >
          > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
          >
          > had escaped me up until now.
          >
          > Etznab
          >
          > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
          >
          > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
          >
          > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
          >
          > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
          >
          > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
          >
          > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
          >
          > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
          >
          > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
          >
          > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
          >
          > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
          >
          > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
          >
          > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
          >
          > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
          >
          > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
          >
          > teach and other "believers" experience!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
          >
          > Hello All,
          >
          > It was bad enough that HK sold
          >
          > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
          >
          > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
          >
          > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
          > 0D
          >
          > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
          >
          > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
          >
          > The truth has (once again) been
          >
          > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
          >
          > no doubt, likes this rendition because
          >
          > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
          >
          > this drawing looks more "sketch"
          >
          > like than portrait like!
          >
          > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
          >
          > a more modern, shaved look, and
          >
          > does not appear as thin as it really
          >
          > is (the inside portion of his ear is
          >
          > different too).
          >
          > When looking at the front cover photo,
          >
          > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
          >
          > World of ECKankar" we can see that
          >
          > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
          >
          > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
          >
          > makes Klemp look younger.
          >
          > The question ECKists should be asking is,
          >
          > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
          >
          > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
          >
          > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
          >
          > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
          >
          > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
          >
          > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
          >
          > I think it's funny that Klemp names
          >
          > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
          >
          > a "true friend" say such nasty
          > and mean
          >
          > things to you? These RESAs and other
          >
          > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
          >
          > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
          >
          > now they see that there are strings
          >
          > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
          >
          > ship.
          >
          > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
          >
          > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
          >
          > himself, or give it to you... free of
          >
          > charge? Hmmmmmm.
          >
          > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
          >
          > make even more money from his image.
          >
          > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
          >
          > as though he has a big hole running
          >
          > through his head. So, maybe HK could
          >
          > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
          >
          > The chain would go through his ears!
          >
          > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
          >
          > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
          >
          > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
          >
          > he does with portraits, books, etc.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
          >
          >
          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
          >
        • Jason Mc Dermott
          Hi Prometheus Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT s or HK s stuff being that
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Prometheus

            Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.

            Jay


            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

            Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
            Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
            fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
            that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
            this is similar to beating a dead horse
            when sorting out the truth from all the
            crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
            distracted from the current, now, happenings
            under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

            Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
            He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
            the hook via his distractions involving
            Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
            avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
            PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
            the lies and myth that Twitchell created
            in order to confuse the issue.

            Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
            but became more and more insane over
            time. And, look at those "creative" people
            in business who have scammed thousands
            of individuals out of their life savings! They
            even scammed hospitals and non-profit
            foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
            Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
            expected from a person who paid to be
            included in "The International Who's Who
            of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
            why do EKists need Klemp when they can
            "create" their own reality/destiny and make
            themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
            Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
            redundant and lives in the past by quoting
            historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
            EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
            with their current views of society and how
            it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
            are these relevant "insights" from these EK
            Masters?

            BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
            a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
            a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
            actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
            truth about Marman's book is that it comes
            much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

            Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
            "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
            that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
            as well!

            As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
            it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
            With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
            said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
            or any other EK Master!

            FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
            This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
            "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
            the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
            the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
            about this "upper region," although, it is referred
            to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
            looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
            happens because asking too many questions shows
            spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
            in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
            comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
            answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
            the same text that contain the conflicting info!
            This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
            works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
            or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
            within the Satsang Society.

            Prometheus

            Jay wrote:

            Dear Etznab

            Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
            its a fictional piece based on the well known
            metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
            I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
            features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
            multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
            in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
            Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
            by clicking on the classes button and then the
            audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
            them in order as not to get confused of what's
            being discussed and explained by Johnson,
            the particular section of Over soul seven and
            Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

            g'luk

            Jay

            >
            >
            >
            > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>

            >
            >

            Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
            >
            Etznab,
            Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
            >
            Prometheus,

            Etznab wrote:
            > No. I haven't.
            >
            > The reference to number seven interests me.
            > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
            > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
            > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
            > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
            > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
            > them all. Like, something on another level, so
            > to speak. Examples:
            >
            > p. 156
            >
            > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
            > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
            > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
            > all!"
            >
            > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
            > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
            > not sure. That quote is on the second page
            > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
            > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
            >
            > For some reason, I'm under the impression
            > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
            > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
            > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
            > the same book.
            >
            > p. 195
            >
            > "When I want to show the world my highest
            > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
            > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
            > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
            > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
            > final for he represents my power in the seven
            > lower worlds."
            >
            > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
            > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
            >
            > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
            > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
            > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
            > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
            > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
            > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
            > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
            >
            > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
            >
            > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
            > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
            > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
            > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
            > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
            > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
            > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
            > book would mention this many and then the
            > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
            > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
            > haste, and will have to go back & check the
            > names of the planes for accuracy.)
            >
            > In the next chapter following that one (THE
            > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
            > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
            > of the chapter:
            >
            > p. 197
            >
            > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
            > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
            > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
            > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
            > you will then know for yourself. [....]
            >
            > p. 199
            >
            > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
            > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
            > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
            > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
            > creations throughout the seven spheres."
            >
            > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
            > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
            > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
            > other time mentions seven spheres.
            >
            > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
            > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
            > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
            > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
            >
            > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
            > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
            > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
            > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
            > a total of only seven planets.
            >
            > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
            > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
            > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
            > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
            > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
            > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
            > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
            > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
            > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
            > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
            > was already known to history? How much was in
            > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
            > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
            > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
            > how much of the material had actually come direct
            > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
            > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
            >
            > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
            > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
            > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
            > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
            >
            > Etznab
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
            > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
            > "Body"
            >
            > Hello Etznab,
            >
            > You make some good points and have
            >
            > brought up more information to point
            >
            > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
            >
            > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
            >
            > and D.W.T.M. later.
            >
            > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
            >
            > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
            >
            > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
            >
            > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
            >
            > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
            >
            > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
            >
            > overlook this point. And, look at how
            >
            > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
            >
            > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
            >
            > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
            >
            > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
            > D
            >
            > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
            >
            > under Klemp's rule(s)!
            >
            > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
            >
            > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
            >
            > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
            >
            > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
            >
            > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
            >
            > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
            >
            > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
            >
            > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
            >
            > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
            >
            > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
            >
            > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
            >
            > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
            >
            > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
            >
            > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
            >
            > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
            >
            > Plane!
            >
            > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
            >
            > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
            >
            > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
            >
            > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
            >
            > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
            >
            > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
            >
            > Etznab wrote:
            >
            > I would like to know the difference between
            >
            > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
            >
            > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
            >
            > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
            >
            > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
            >
            > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
            > D
            >
            > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
            >
            > This is something I've been contemplating
            >
            > for some time: What is different with the two
            >
            > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
            >
            > about this subject).
            >
            > There's another thing on this subject, and it
            >
            > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
            >
            > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
            >
            > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
            >
            > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
            >
            > any of the other lower world bodies where there
            >
            > are many different ones - including the physical
            >
            > body.
            >
            > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
            >
            > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
            >
            > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
            >
            > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
            >
            > Something like another dimension.
            >
            > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
            >
            > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
            >
            > the Living Eck Master become so important?
            >
            > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
            >
            > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
            >
            > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
            >
            > understanding is that the astral body is limited
            >
            > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
            >
            > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
            >
            > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
            >
            > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
            >
            > it reads like that was his first vis
            > it. However, in
            >
            > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
            >
            > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
            >
            > already!
            >
            > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
            >
            > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
            >
            > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
            >
            > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
            >
            > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
            >
            > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
            >
            > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
            >
            > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
            >
            > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
            >
            > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
            >
            > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
            >
            > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
            >
            > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
            >
            > Fang account and the year 1957.
            >
            > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
            >
            > I wonder, were those two different books, the
            >
            > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
            >
            > experience?
            >
            > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
            >
            > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
            >
            > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
            >
            > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
            >
            > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
            >
            > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
            >
            > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
            >
            > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
            >
            > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
            >
            > I've
            > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
            >
            > books and read from the beginning, looking at
            >
            > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
            >
            > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
            >
            > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
            >
            > had escaped me up until now.
            >
            > Etznab
            >
            > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
            >
            > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
            >
            > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
            >
            > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
            >
            > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
            >
            > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
            >
            > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
            >
            > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
            >
            > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
            >
            > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
            >
            > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
            >
            > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
            >
            > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
            >
            > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
            >
            > teach and other "believers" experience!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
            >
            > Hello All,
            >
            > It was bad enough that HK sold
            >
            > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
            >
            > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
            >
            > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
            > 0D
            >
            > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
            >
            > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
            >
            > The truth has (once again) been
            >
            > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
            >
            > no doubt, likes this rendition because
            >
            > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
            >
            > this drawing looks more "sketch"
            >
            > like than portrait like!
            >
            > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
            >
            > a more modern, shaved look, and
            >
            > does not appear as thin as it really
            >
            > is (the inside portion of his ear is
            >
            > different too).
            >
            > When looking at the front cover photo,
            >
            > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
            >
            > World of ECKankar" we can see that
            >
            > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
            >
            > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
            >
            > makes Klemp look younger.
            >
            > The question ECKists should be asking is,
            >
            > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
            >
            > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
            >
            > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
            >
            > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
            >
            > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
            >
            > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
            >
            > I think it's funny that Klemp names
            >
            > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
            >
            > a "true friend" say such nasty
            > and mean
            >
            > things to you? These RESAs and other
            >
            > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
            >
            > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
            >
            > now they see that there are strings
            >
            > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
            >
            > ship.
            >
            > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
            >
            > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
            >
            > himself, or give it to you... free of
            >
            > charge? Hmmmmmm.
            >
            > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
            >
            > make even more money from his image.
            >
            > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
            >
            > as though he has a big hole running
            >
            > through his head. So, maybe HK could
            >
            > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
            >
            > The chain would go through his ears!
            >
            > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
            >
            > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
            >
            > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
            >
            > he does with portraits, books, etc.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
            >
            >
            > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
            >


            Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
          • noneckster
            RESPONDING TO THE THREAD: I think it s worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              RESPONDING TO THE THREAD:

              I think it's worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very core. To reread eck books hoping to get some wisdom is foolish imo. It's like drinking Koolaide that tastes like a sugary drink, but may be tainted with poison. : ) Current eckists are just willfully ignorant. There really isn't much of an excuse for their behavior, at this point. If Iranians can communicate and find out information via the internet and cell phone, then access in other Democracies around the world is a click away. Those practicing eckist of today are simply CHOOSING to not know all the facts.

              Before the internet I could understand how it was easier to get duped, conned. The past is the past, for sure, but to not know the past, of course, is to increase the likelihood of repeating it. The study of bad cultic and religious practices is a very important activity IMO.

              Non eckster ; )

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Prometheus
              >
              > Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.
              >
              > Jay
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
              > Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
              > fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
              > that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
              > this is similar to beating a dead horse
              > when sorting out the truth from all the
              > crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
              > distracted from the current, now, happenings
              > under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.
              >
              > Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
              > He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
              > the hook via his distractions involving
              > Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
              > avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
              > PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
              > the lies and myth that Twitchell created
              > in order to confuse the issue.
              >
              > Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
              > but became more and more insane over
              > time. And, look at those "creative" people
              > in business who have scammed thousands
              > of individuals out of their life savings! They
              > even scammed hospitals and non-profit
              > foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
              > Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
              > expected from a person who paid to be
              > included in "The International Who's Who
              > of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
              > why do EKists need Klemp when they can
              > "create" their own reality/destiny and make
              > themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
              > Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
              > redundant and lives in the past by quoting
              > historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
              > EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
              > with their current views of society and how
              > it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
              > are these relevant "insights" from these EK
              > Masters?
              >
              > BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
              > a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
              > a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
              > actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
              > truth about Marman's book is that it comes
              > much closer to Fiction than to "truth."
              >
              > Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
              > "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
              > that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
              > as well!
              >
              > As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
              > it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
              > With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
              > said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
              > or any other EK Master!
              >
              > FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
              > This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
              > "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
              > the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
              > the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
              > about this "upper region," although, it is referred
              > to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
              > looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
              > happens because asking too many questions shows
              > spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
              > in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
              > comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
              > answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
              > the same text that contain the conflicting info!
              > This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
              > works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
              > or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
              > within the Satsang Society.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > Jay wrote:
              >
              > Dear Etznab
              >
              > Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
              > its a fictional piece based on the well known
              > metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
              > I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
              > features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
              > multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
              > in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
              > Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
              > by clicking on the classes button and then the
              > audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
              > them in order as not to get confused of what's
              > being discussed and explained by Johnson,
              > the particular section of Over soul seven and
              > Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.
              >
              > g'luk
              >
              > Jay
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>
              >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
              > >
              > Etznab,
              > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
              > >
              > Prometheus,
              >
              > Etznab wrote:
              > > No. I haven't.
              > >
              > > The reference to number seven interests me.
              > > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
              > > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
              > > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
              > > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
              > > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
              > > them all. Like, something on another level, so
              > > to speak. Examples:
              > >
              > > p. 156
              > >
              > > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
              > > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
              > > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
              > > all!"
              > >
              > > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
              > > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
              > > not sure. That quote is on the second page
              > > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
              > > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
              > >
              > > For some reason, I'm under the impression
              > > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
              > > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
              > > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
              > > the same book.
              > >
              > > p. 195
              > >
              > > "When I want to show the world my highest
              > > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
              > > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
              > > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
              > > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
              > > final for he represents my power in the seven
              > > lower worlds."
              > >
              > > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
              > > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
              > >
              > > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
              > > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
              > > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
              > > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
              > > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
              > > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
              > > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
              > >
              > > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
              > >
              > > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
              > > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
              > > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
              > > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
              > > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
              > > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
              > > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
              > > book would mention this many and then the
              > > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
              > > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
              > > haste, and will have to go back & check the
              > > names of the planes for accuracy.)
              > >
              > > In the next chapter following that one (THE
              > > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
              > > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
              > > of the chapter:
              > >
              > > p. 197
              > >
              > > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
              > > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
              > > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
              > > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
              > > you will then know for yourself. [....]
              > >
              > > p. 199
              > >
              > > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
              > > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
              > > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
              > > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
              > > creations throughout the seven spheres."
              > >
              > > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
              > > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
              > > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
              > > other time mentions seven spheres.
              > >
              > > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
              > > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
              > > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
              > > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
              > >
              > > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
              > > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
              > > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
              > > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
              > > a total of only seven planets.
              > >
              > > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
              > > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
              > > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
              > > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
              > > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
              > > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
              > > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
              > > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
              > > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
              > > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
              > > was already known to history? How much was in
              > > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
              > > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
              > > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
              > > how much of the material had actually come direct
              > > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
              > > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
              > >
              > > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
              > > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
              > > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
              > > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
              > >
              > > Etznab
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
              > > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
              > > "Body"
              > >
              > > Hello Etznab,
              > >
              > > You make some good points and have
              > >
              > > brought up more information to point
              > >
              > > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
              > >
              > > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
              > >
              > > and D.W.T.M. later.
              > >
              > > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
              > >
              > > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
              > >
              > > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
              > >
              > > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
              > >
              > > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
              > >
              > > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
              > >
              > > overlook this point. And, look at how
              > >
              > > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
              > >
              > > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
              > >
              > > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
              > >
              > > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
              > > D
              > >
              > > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
              > >
              > > under Klemp's rule(s)!
              > >
              > > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
              > >
              > > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
              > >
              > > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
              > >
              > > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
              > >
              > > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
              > >
              > > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
              > >
              > > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
              > >
              > > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
              > >
              > > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
              > >
              > > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
              > >
              > > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
              > >
              > > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
              > >
              > > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
              > >
              > > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
              > >
              > > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
              > >
              > > Plane!
              > >
              > > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
              > >
              > > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
              > >
              > > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
              > >
              > > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
              > >
              > > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
              > >
              > > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
              > >
              > > Etznab wrote:
              > >
              > > I would like to know the difference between
              > >
              > > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
              > >
              > > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
              > >
              > > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
              > >
              > > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
              > >
              > > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
              > > D
              > >
              > > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
              > >
              > > This is something I've been contemplating
              > >
              > > for some time: What is different with the two
              > >
              > > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
              > >
              > > about this subject).
              > >
              > > There's another thing on this subject, and it
              > >
              > > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
              > >
              > > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
              > >
              > > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
              > >
              > > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
              > >
              > > any of the other lower world bodies where there
              > >
              > > are many different ones - including the physical
              > >
              > > body.
              > >
              > > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
              > >
              > > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
              > >
              > > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
              > >
              > > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
              > >
              > > Something like another dimension.
              > >
              > > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
              > >
              > > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
              > >
              > > the Living Eck Master become so important?
              > >
              > > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
              > >
              > > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
              > >
              > > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
              > >
              > > understanding is that the astral body is limited
              > >
              > > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
              > >
              > > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
              > >
              > > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
              > >
              > > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
              > >
              > > it reads like that was his first vis
              > > it. However, in
              > >
              > > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
              > >
              > > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
              > >
              > > already!
              > >
              > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
              > >
              > > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
              > >
              > > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
              > >
              > > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
              > >
              > > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
              > >
              > > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
              > >
              > > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
              > >
              > > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
              > >
              > > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
              > >
              > > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
              > >
              > > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
              > >
              > > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
              > >
              > > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
              > >
              > > Fang account and the year 1957.
              > >
              > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
              > >
              > > I wonder, were those two different books, the
              > >
              > > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
              > >
              > > experience?
              > >
              > > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
              > >
              > > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
              > >
              > > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
              > >
              > > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
              > >
              > > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
              > >
              > > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
              > >
              > > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
              > >
              > > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
              > >
              > > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
              > >
              > > I've
              > > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
              > >
              > > books and read from the beginning, looking at
              > >
              > > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
              > >
              > > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
              > >
              > > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
              > >
              > > had escaped me up until now.
              > >
              > > Etznab
              > >
              > > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
              > >
              > > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
              > >
              > > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
              > >
              > > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
              > >
              > > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
              > >
              > > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
              > >
              > > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
              > >
              > > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
              > >
              > > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
              > >
              > > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
              > >
              > > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
              > >
              > > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
              > >
              > > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
              > >
              > > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
              > >
              > > teach and other "believers" experience!
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
              > >
              > > Hello All,
              > >
              > > It was bad enough that HK sold
              > >
              > > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
              > >
              > > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
              > >
              > > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
              > > 0D
              > >
              > > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
              > >
              > > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
              > >
              > > The truth has (once again) been
              > >
              > > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
              > >
              > > no doubt, likes this rendition because
              > >
              > > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
              > >
              > > this drawing looks more "sketch"
              > >
              > > like than portrait like!
              > >
              > > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
              > >
              > > a more modern, shaved look, and
              > >
              > > does not appear as thin as it really
              > >
              > > is (the inside portion of his ear is
              > >
              > > different too).
              > >
              > > When looking at the front cover photo,
              > >
              > > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
              > >
              > > World of ECKankar" we can see that
              > >
              > > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
              > >
              > > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
              > >
              > > makes Klemp look younger.
              > >
              > > The question ECKists should be asking is,
              > >
              > > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
              > >
              > > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
              > >
              > > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
              > >
              > > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
              > >
              > > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
              > >
              > > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
              > >
              > > I think it's funny that Klemp names
              > >
              > > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
              > >
              > > a "true friend" say such nasty
              > > and mean
              > >
              > > things to you? These RESAs and other
              > >
              > > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
              > >
              > > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
              > >
              > > now they see that there are strings
              > >
              > > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
              > >
              > > ship.
              > >
              > > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
              > >
              > > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
              > >
              > > himself, or give it to you... free of
              > >
              > > charge? Hmmmmmm.
              > >
              > > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
              > >
              > > make even more money from his image.
              > >
              > > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
              > >
              > > as though he has a big hole running
              > >
              > > through his head. So, maybe HK could
              > >
              > > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
              > >
              > > The chain would go through his ears!
              > >
              > > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
              > >
              > > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
              > >
              > > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
              > >
              > > he does with portraits, books, etc.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
              > >
              > >
              > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Jay and All, Marman is connected to Klemp because he is an EKist (7th Initiate) and claims to be a long-time friend of HK s. Marman (Doug) is an
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Jay and All,
                Marman is connected to Klemp
                because he is an EKist (7th Initiate)
                and claims to be a long-time friend
                of HK's. Marman (Doug) is an apologist
                for both Klemp and PT, and has a
                following from an EK fringe group.
                Just read some of DM's older dialogue
                and arguments, especially, with David
                Lane. Steve Runfeldt (EK Internet PR
                Guru) is another EK apologist who, also,
                rates a D- when debating (online) with
                David Lane.

                BTW- I think that I first read Jane Roberts'
                books in the early 1970's and once was
                tempted to stop by for a short visit with
                her and her husband in Binghamton (since
                I was passing through at the time). But,
                my passenger didn't want to stop. I got
                the impression from reading her books
                that writing, for Jane, was like a form of
                therapy that helped to give her some sort
                of balance, peace of mind, and meaning
                for her life that helped it all to make sense.
                From her descriptions, about herself, she
                came across as having a lot of nervous
                energy and smoking her cigarettes seemed
                to calm her. 8th Initiate Millie (Workman)
                Moore was much the same, but used the
                spoken word versus the written word.

                BTW-What do you think about Marman's
                TS comments about Rebazar and the Holocaust
                "probably" being myth?

                Prometheus


                Jay wrote:

                Hi Prometheus

                Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word
                but how is Marman connected with HK?..and
                yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over
                7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence
                of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth
                stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab
                had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking
                back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past
                is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the
                present.

                Jay

                From: prometheus
                Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                this is similar to beating a dead horse
                when sorting out the truth from all the
                crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                distracted from the current, now, happenings
                under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                the hook via his distractions involving
                Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                in order to confuse the issue.

                Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                but became more and more insane over
                time. And, look at those "creative" people
                in business who have scammed thousands
                of individuals out of their life savings! They
                even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                expected from a person who paid to be
                included in "The International Who's Who
                of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                with their current views of society and how
                it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                Masters?

                BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                as well!

                As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                or any other EK Master!

                FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                happens because asking too many questions shows
                spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                within the Satsang Society.

                Prometheus

                Jay wrote:

                Dear Etznab

                Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                its a fictional piece based on the well known
                metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                by clicking on the classes button and then the
                audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                them in order as not to get confused of what's
                being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                the particular section of Over soul seven and
                Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                g'luk

                Jay

                >
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > From: Jason

                >
                >

                Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                >
                Etznab,
                Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                >
                Prometheus,

                Etznab wrote:
                > No. I haven't.
                >
                > The reference to number seven interests me.
                > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                > to speak. Examples:
                >
                > p. 156
                >
                > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                > all!"
                >
                > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                >
                > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                > the same book.
                >
                > p. 195
                >
                > "When I want to show the world my highest
                > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                > final for he represents my power in the seven
                > lower worlds."
                >
                > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                >
                > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                >
                > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                >
                > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                > book would mention this many and then the
                > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                >
                > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                > of the chapter:
                >
                > p. 197
                >
                > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                >
                > p. 199
                >
                > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                >
                > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                > other time mentions seven spheres.
                >
                > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                >
                > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                > a total of only seven planets.
                >
                > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                > was already known to history? How much was in
                > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                > how much of the material had actually come direct
                > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                >
                > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                >
                > Etznab
                >
              • etznab@aol.com
                I m not so sure the past is a dead horse . In fact, I would call it very much alive and is the basis for many people s present & future beliefs about numerous
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".
                  In fact, I would call it very much alive and is
                  the basis for many people's present & future
                  beliefs about numerous things.

                  Going back and clarifying the past is what
                  I am seeking to do, by isolating the context
                  of those many stories I have read and heard
                  told in Eckankar books and discussions.

                  This is something I've been wanting to do
                  for a long time. Establish the "context". For
                  example, What is the literal truth and what
                  is not?

                  Here is why I think this important. When I
                  can prove beyond a doubt that something is
                  fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that
                  regard. It's power over me would not be the
                  same, not have the same influence & power
                  over my belief system and psyche as some-
                  thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With
                  myth and fiction - knowing a source is that -
                  it leaves me with the liberty to explore further
                  and to learn how the story came about in the
                  first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the
                  people who take pseudo religion and history
                  to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.
                  I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &
                  infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my
                  conscience, living with the thought I am know-
                  ingly spreading fact for fiction.

                  BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.
                  I'm just now getting around to reading mail.

                  Etznab





                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm
                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                  Soul "Body"








                  Hi Prometheus

                  Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman
                  connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                  being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just
                  mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane
                  Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had
                  in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a
                  dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk
                  in the present.

                  Jay

                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                  "Body"













                  Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,

                  Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's

                  fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam

                  that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that

                  this is similar to beating a dead horse

                  when sorting out the truth from all the

                  crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be

                  distracted from the current, now, happenings

                  under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.


                  =0
                  A
                  Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.

                  He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off

                  the hook via his distractions involving

                  Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,

                  avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon

                  PT's "creative writing" by manipulating

                  the lies and myth that Twitchell created

                  in order to confuse the issue.



                  Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,

                  but became more and more insane over

                  time. And, look at those "creative" people

                  in business who have scammed thousands

                  of individuals out of their life savings! They

                  even scammed hospitals and non-profit

                  foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!

                  Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's

                  expected from a person who paid to be

                  included in "The International Who's Who

                  of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,

                  why do EKists need Klemp when they can

                  "create" their own reality/destiny and make

                  themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a

                  Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is

                  redundant and lives in the past by quoting

                  historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote

                  EK Masters, still living in a physical body,

                  with their current views of society and how

                  it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where

                  are these relevant "insights" from these EK

                  Masters?



                  BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote

                  a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes

                  a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,

                  actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real

                  truth about Marman's book is that it comes

                  much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                  Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that

                  "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and

                  that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"

                  as well!



                  As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"

                  it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues

                  With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever

                  said/written about his discussions with Rebazar

                  or any other EK Master!



                  FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!

                  This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the

                  "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as

                  the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as

                  the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned

                  about this "upper region," although, it is referred

                  to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-

                  looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This

                  happens because asking too many questions shows

                  spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and

                  in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"

                  comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for

                  answers. However, all "answers" must agree with

                  the same text that contain the conflicting info!

                  This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma

                  works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,

                  or they're Black Ball
                  ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"

                  within the Satsang Society.



                  Prometheus



                  Jay wrote:



                  Dear Etznab



                  Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,

                  its a fictional piece based on the well known

                  metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..

                  I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson

                  features it as part of his hypothesis as us having

                  multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,

                  in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher

                  Consciousness Society website. You'll find them

                  by clicking on the classes button and then the

                  audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to

                  them in order as not to get confused of what's

                  being discussed and explained by Johnson,

                  the particular section of Over soul seven and

                  Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                  g'luk



                  Jay



                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > ____________ _________ _________ __

                  > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                  >

                  >



                  Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                  >

                  Etznab,

                  Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                  >

                  Prometheus,



                  Etznab wrote:

                  > No. I haven't.

                  >

                  > The reference to number seven interests me.

                  > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are

                  > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v
                  ersion of

                  > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave

                  > me the impression of eight basic planes, where

                  > the eighth (and highest) was considered above

                  > them all. Like, something on another level, so

                  > to speak. Examples:

                  >

                  > p. 156

                  >

                  > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet

                  > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres

                  > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear

                  > all!"

                  >

                  > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,

                  > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm

                  > not sure. That quote is on the second page

                  > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.

                  > Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                  >

                  > For some reason, I'm under the impression

                  > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from

                  > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the

                  > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in

                  > the same book.

                  >

                  > p. 195

                  >

                  > "When I want to show the world my highest

                  > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.

                  > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the

                  > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will

                  > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree

                  > final for he represents my power in the seven

                  > lower worlds."

                  >

                  > [That was fro
                  m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.

                  > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                  >

                  > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in

                  > my earlier post. The being supposed to have

                  > spoken those words was either Anami, or the

                  > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could

                  > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that

                  > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.

                  > Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                  >

                  > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                  >

                  > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.

                  > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?

                  > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental

                  > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami

                  > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but

                  > I suspect the earlier models had around eight

                  > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's

                  > book would mention this many and then the

                  > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give

                  > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative

                  > haste, and will have to go back & check the

                  > names of the planes for accuracy.)

                  >

                  > In the next chapter following that one (THE

                  > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs

                  > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph

                  > of the chapter:

                  >

                  > p. 1
                  97

                  >

                  > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take

                  > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond

                  > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth

                  > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So

                  > you will then know for yourself. [....]

                  >

                  > p. 199

                  >

                  > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,

                  > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are

                  > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must

                  > serve to take the message of the divine to all my

                  > creations throughout the seven spheres."

                  >

                  > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And

                  > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,

                  > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-

                  > other time mentions seven spheres.

                  >

                  > It was the context from those chapters that gave me

                  > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",

                  > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a

                  > place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                  >

                  > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.

                  > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to

                  > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even

                  > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in

                  > a total of only seven planets.

                  >

                  > As I begin re
                  ading through the Eck books again -

                  > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious

                  > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,

                  > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing

                  > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's

                  > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to

                  > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand

                  > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was

                  > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                  > materials. Like, how much of it was material that

                  > was already known to history? How much was in

                  > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D

                  > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?

                  > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,

                  > how much of the material had actually come direct

                  > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens

                  > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                  >

                  > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and

                  > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,

                  > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with

                  > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                  >

                  > Etznab

                  >

                  > -----Original Message-----

                  > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>

                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                  > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20
                  09 1:41 pm

                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.
                  the Soul

                  > "Body"

                  >

                  > Hello Etznab,

                  >

                  > You make some good points and have

                  >

                  > brought up more information to point

                  >

                  > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                  >

                  > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                  >

                  > and D.W.T.M. later.

                  >

                  > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                  >

                  > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                  >

                  > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                  >

                  > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                  >

                  > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                  >

                  > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                  >

                  > overlook this point. And, look at how

                  >

                  > many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                  >

                  > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                  >

                  > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                  >

                  > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0

                  > D

                  >

                  > Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                  >

                  > under Klemp's rule(s)!

                  >

                  > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                  >

                  > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                  >

                  > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                  >

                  > Over-Soul and that
                  these Souls need to

                  >

                  > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                  >

                  > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                  >

                  > being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                  >

                  > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                  >

                  > by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                  >

                  > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                  >

                  > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                  >

                  > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                  >

                  > Prometheus

                  >

                  > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                  >

                  > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                  >

                  > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                  >

                  > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                  >

                  > Plane!

                  >

                  > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                  >

                  > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                  >

                  > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                  >

                  > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                  >

                  > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                  >

                  > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                  >

                  > Etznab wrote:

                  >

                  > I would like to know the difference between

                  >

                  > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                  >

                  > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                  >

                  > about the inner=2
                  0form of the Living Eck Master.

                  >

                  > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                  >

                  > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0

                  > D

                  >

                  > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                  >

                  > This is something I've been contemplating

                  >

                  > for some time: What is different with the two

                  >

                  > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                  >

                  > about this subject).

                  >

                  > There's another thing on this subject, and it

                  >

                  > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                  >

                  > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                  >

                  > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                  >

                  > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                  >

                  > any of the other lower world bodies where there

                  >

                  > are many different ones - including the physical

                  >

                  > body.

                  >

                  > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                  >

                  > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                  >

                  > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                  >

                  > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                  >

                  > Something like another dimension.

                  >

                  > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                  >

                  > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                  >

                  > the L
                  iving Eck Master become so important?

                  >

                  > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                  >

                  > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                  >

                  > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                  >

                  > understanding is that the astral body is limited

                  >

                  > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                  >

                  > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                  >

                  > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                  >

                  > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                  >

                  > it reads like that was his first vis

                  > it. However, in

                  >

                  > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                  >

                  > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                  >

                  > already!

                  >

                  > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                  >

                  > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                  >

                  > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                  >

                  > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                  >

                  > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                  >

                  > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                  >

                  > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                  >

                  > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                  >

                  > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                  >

                  > the way to the nameless
                  plane. Anami. & not

                  >

                  > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                  >

                  > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                  >

                  > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                  >

                  > Fang account and the year 1957.

                  >

                  > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                  >

                  > I wonder, were those two different books, the

                  >

                  > two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                  >

                  > experience?

                  >

                  > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                  >

                  > online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                  >

                  > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                  >

                  > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                  >

                  > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                  >

                  > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                  >

                  > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                  >

                  > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                  >

                  > A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                  >

                  > I've

                  > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                  >

                  > books and read from the beginning, looking at

                  >

                  > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                  >

                  > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                  >

                  > this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                  >

                  > had20escaped me up until now.

                  >

                  > Etznab

                  >

                  > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                  >

                  > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                  >

                  > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                  >

                  > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                  >

                  > or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                  >

                  > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                  >

                  > of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                  >

                  > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                  >

                  > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                  >

                  > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                  >

                  > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                  >

                  > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                  >

                  > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                  >

                  > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                  >

                  > teach and other "believers" experience!

                  >

                  > Prometheus

                  >

                  > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                  >

                  > Hello All,

                  >

                  > It was bad enough that HK sold

                  >

                  > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                  >

                  > portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                  >

                  > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).

                  > 0D

                  >

                  > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                  =0
                  A
                  >

                  > portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                  >

                  > The truth has (once again) been

                  >

                  > embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                  >

                  > no doubt, likes this rendition because

                  >

                  > it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                  >

                  > this drawing looks more "sketch"

                  >

                  > like than portrait like!

                  >

                  > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                  >

                  > a more modern, shaved look, and

                  >

                  > does not appear as thin as it really

                  >

                  > is (the inside portion of his ear is

                  >

                  > different too).

                  >

                  > When looking at the front cover photo,

                  >

                  > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                  >

                  > World of ECKankar" we can see that

                  >

                  > Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                  >

                  > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                  >

                  > makes Klemp look younger.

                  >

                  > The question ECKists should be asking is,

                  >

                  > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                  >

                  > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                  >

                  > followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                  >

                  > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                  >

                  > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                  >

                  > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0
                  D

                  >

                  > I think it's funny that Klemp names

                  >

                  > this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                  >

                  > a "true friend" say such nasty

                  > and mean

                  >

                  > things to you? These RESAs and other

                  >

                  > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                  >

                  > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                  >

                  > now they see that there are strings

                  >

                  > attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                  >

                  > ship.

                  >

                  > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                  >

                  > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                  >

                  > himself, or give it to you... free of

                  >

                  > charge? Hmmmmmm.

                  >

                  > On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                  >

                  > make even more money from his image.

                  >

                  > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                  >

                  > as though he has a big hole running

                  >

                  > through his head. So, maybe HK could

                  >

                  > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                  >

                  > The chain would go through his ears!

                  >

                  > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                  >

                  > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                  >

                  > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                  >

                  > he does with portraits, books, etc.

                  >

                  > Prometheus

                  >

                  &
                  gt;

                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                  .yahoo.com

                  >

                  >

                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                  .yahoo.com

                  >











                  Send instant messages to your online friends
                  http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Typo correction. The following sentence I don t have to have guilt on my conscience, living with the thought I am knowingly spreading fact for fiction.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Typo correction. The following sentence

                    "I don't have to have guilt on my conscience,
                    living with the thought I am knowingly spreading
                    fact for fiction."

                    should read: fiction for fact, instead of fact
                    for fiction.

                    Etznab

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: etznab@...
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 6:47 pm
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                    Soul "Body"










                    I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".

                    In fact, I would call it very much alive and is

                    the basis for many people's present & future

                    beliefs about numerous things.



                    Going back and clarifying the past is what

                    I am seeking to do, by isolating the context

                    of those many stories I have read and heard

                    told in Eckankar books and discussions.



                    This is something I've been wanting to do

                    for a long time. Establish the "context". For

                    example, What is the literal truth and what

                    is not?



                    Here is why I think this important. When I

                    can prove beyond a doubt that something is

                    fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that

                    regard. It's power over me would not be the

                    same, not have the same influence & power

                    over my belief system and psyche as some-

                    thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With

                    myth and fiction - knowing a source is that
                    -

                    it leaves me with the liberty to explore further

                    and to learn how the story came about in the

                    first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the

                    people who take pseudo religion and history

                    to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.

                    I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &

                    infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my

                    conscience, living with the thought I am know-

                    ingly spreading fact for fiction.



                    BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.

                    I'm just now getting around to reading mail.



                    Etznab



                    -----Original Message-----

                    From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                    Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm

                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the

                    Soul "Body"



                    Hi Prometheus



                    Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman

                    connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff

                    being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just

                    mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane

                    Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had

                    in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a

                    dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk

                    in the present.



                    Jay



                    =0
                    AFrom: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                    Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08

                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul

                    "Body"



                    Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,



                    Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's



                    fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam



                    that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that



                    this is similar to beating a dead horse



                    when sorting out the truth from all the



                    crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be



                    distracted from the current, now, happenings



                    under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.



                    =0

                    A

                    Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.



                    He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off



                    the hook via his distractions involving



                    Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,



                    avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon



                    PT's "creative writing" by manipulating



                    the lies and myth that Twitchell created



                    in order to confuse the issue.



                    Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,



                    but became more and more insane over



                    time. And, look at those "creative" people



                    in business who have scammed thousands



                    of individuals out of their life savings! They



                    even scammed hospitals and non-profit



                    foundations!
                    Very "creative" weren't they!



                    Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's



                    expected from a person who paid to be



                    included in "The International Who's Who



                    of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,



                    why do EKists need Klemp when they can



                    "create" their own reality/destiny and make



                    themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a



                    Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is



                    redundant and lives in the past by quoting



                    historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote



                    EK Masters, still living in a physical body,



                    with their current views of society and how



                    it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where



                    are these relevant "insights" from these EK



                    Masters?



                    BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote



                    a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes



                    a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,



                    actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real



                    truth about Marman's book is that it comes



                    much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                    Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that



                    "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and



                    that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"



                    as well!



                    As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"



                    it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues




                    With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever



                    said/written about his discussions with Rebazar



                    or any other EK Master!



                    FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!



                    This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the



                    "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as



                    the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as



                    the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned



                    about this "upper region," although, it is referred



                    to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-



                    looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This



                    happens because asking too many questions shows



                    spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and



                    in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"



                    comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for



                    answers. However, all "answers" must agree with



                    the same text that contain the conflicting info!



                    This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma



                    works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,



                    or they're Black Ball

                    ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"



                    within the Satsang Society.



                    Prometheus



                    Jay wrote:



                    Dear Etznab



                    Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,



                    its a fictional piece based on the well20known



                    metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..



                    I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson



                    features it as part of his hypothesis as us having



                    multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,



                    in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher



                    Consciousness Society website. You'll find them



                    by clicking on the classes button and then the



                    audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to



                    them in order as not to get confused of what's



                    being discussed and explained by Johnson,



                    the particular section of Over soul seven and



                    Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                    g'luk



                    Jay



                    >



                    >



                    >



                    > ____________ _________ _________ __



                    > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                    >



                    >



                    Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                    >



                    Etznab,



                    Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                    >



                    Prometheus,



                    Etznab wrote:



                    > No. I haven't.



                    >



                    > The reference to number seven interests me.



                    > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are



                    > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v

                    ersion of=0
                    D



                    > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave



                    > me the impression of eight basic planes, where



                    > the eighth (and highest) was considered above



                    > them all. Like, something on another level, so



                    > to speak. Examples:



                    >



                    > p. 156



                    >



                    > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet



                    > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres



                    > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear



                    > all!"



                    >



                    > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,



                    > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm



                    > not sure. That quote is on the second page



                    > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.



                    > Question: Why does he mention seven?]



                    >



                    > For some reason, I'm under the impression



                    > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from



                    > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the



                    > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in



                    > the same book.



                    >



                    > p. 195



                    >



                    > "When I want to show the world my highest



                    > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.



                    > This is my greatest gift and boon.=2
                    0He is the



                    > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will



                    > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree



                    > final for he represents my power in the seven



                    > lower worlds."



                    >



                    > [That was fro

                    m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.



                    > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the



                    >



                    > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in



                    > my earlier post. The being supposed to have



                    > spoken those words was either Anami, or the



                    > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could



                    > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that



                    > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.



                    > Consider the last seven words in that quote:



                    >



                    > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."



                    >



                    > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.



                    > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?



                    > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental



                    > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami



                    > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but



                    > I suspect the earlier models had around eight



                    > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's



                    > book=2
                    0would mention this many and then the



                    > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give



                    > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative



                    > haste, and will have to go back & check the



                    > names of the planes for accuracy.)



                    >



                    > In the next chapter following that one (THE



                    > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs



                    > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph



                    > of the chapter:



                    >



                    > p. 1

                    97



                    >



                    > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take



                    > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond



                    > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth



                    > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So



                    > you will then know for yourself. [....]



                    >



                    > p. 199



                    >



                    > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,



                    > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are



                    > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must



                    > serve to take the message of the divine to all my



                    > creations throughout the seven spheres."



                    >



                    > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And



                    > by non
                    e other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,



                    > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-



                    > other time mentions seven spheres.



                    >



                    > It was the context from those chapters that gave me



                    > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",



                    > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a



                    > place "above" them and making a total of eight.



                    >



                    > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.



                    > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to



                    > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even



                    > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in



                    > a total of only seven planets.



                    >



                    > As I begin re

                    ading through the Eck books again -



                    > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious



                    > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,



                    > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing



                    > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's



                    > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to



                    > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand



                    > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was



                    > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                    =0
                    D

                    > materials. Like, how much of it was material that



                    > was already known to history? How much was in



                    > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D



                    > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?



                    > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,



                    > how much of the material had actually come direct



                    > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens



                    > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?



                    >



                    > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and



                    > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,



                    > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with



                    > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.



                    >



                    > Etznab



                    >



                    > -----Original Message-----



                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>



                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com



                    > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20

                    09 1:41 pm



                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.

                    the Soul



                    > "Body"



                    >



                    > Hello Etznab,



                    >



                    > You make some good points and have



                    >



                    > brought up more information to point



                    =0
                    A>



                    > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.



                    >



                    > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"



                    >



                    > and D.W.T.M. later.



                    >



                    > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra



                    >



                    > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;



                    >



                    > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th



                    >



                    > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"



                    >



                    > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral



                    >



                    > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to



                    >



                    > overlook this point. And, look at how



                    >



                    > many years Klemp has instructed EKists



                    >



                    > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/



                    >



                    > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra



                    >



                    > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0



                    > D



                    >



                    > Chakra is still being used after 28 years



                    >



                    > under Klemp's rule(s)!



                    >



                    > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is



                    >



                    > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There



                    >



                    > is a belief that Groups
                    of Souls have an



                    >



                    > Over-Soul and that

                    these Souls need to



                    >



                    > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)



                    >



                    > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/



                    >



                    > being that same Over-Soul which, then,



                    >



                    > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can



                    >



                    > by-pass the hierarchy and can become



                    >



                    > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,



                    >



                    > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have



                    >



                    > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                    >



                    > Prometheus



                    >



                    > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI



                    >



                    > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is



                    >



                    > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"



                    >



                    > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th



                    >



                    > Plane!



                    >



                    > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"



                    >



                    > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,



                    >



                    > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect



                    >



                    > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "
                    advanced"



                    >



                    > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"



                    >



                    > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



                    >



                    > Etznab wrote:



                    >



                    > I would like to know the difference between



                    >



                    > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,



                    >



                    > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something



                    >



                    > about the inner=2

                    0form of the Living Eck Master.



                    >



                    > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called



                    >



                    > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0



                    > D



                    >



                    > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



                    >



                    > This is something I've been contemplating



                    >



                    > for some time: What is different with the two



                    >



                    > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me



                    >



                    > about this subject).



                    >



                    > There's another thing on this subject, and it



                    >



                    > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,



                    >



                    > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided



                    >



                    > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the




                    >



                    > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,



                    >



                    > any of the other lower world bodies where there



                    >



                    > are many different ones - including the physical



                    >



                    > body.



                    >



                    > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma



                    >



                    > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is



                    >



                    > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul



                    >



                    > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.



                    >



                    > Something like another dimension.



                    >



                    > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?



                    >



                    > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of



                    >



                    > the L

                    iving Eck Master become so important?



                    >



                    > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled



                    >



                    > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that



                    >



                    > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My



                    >



                    > understanding is that the astral body is limited



                    >



                    > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup



                    >



                    > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one=2
                    0would have



                    >



                    > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



                    >



                    > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book



                    >



                    > it reads like that was his first vis



                    > it. However, in



                    >



                    > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The



                    >



                    > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice



                    >



                    > already!



                    >



                    > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                    >



                    > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the



                    >



                    > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.



                    >



                    > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the



                    >



                    > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and



                    >



                    > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after



                    >



                    > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul



                    >



                    > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)



                    >



                    > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all



                    >



                    > the way to the nameless

                    plane. Anami. & not



                    >



                    > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem



                    >



                    &
                    gt; quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-



                    >



                    > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's



                    >



                    > Fang account and the year 1957.



                    >



                    > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                    >



                    > I wonder, were those two different books, the



                    >



                    > two different manuscripts, about the same basic



                    >



                    > experience?



                    >



                    > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an



                    >



                    > online version of The Path of the Masters? by



                    >



                    > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter



                    >



                    > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the



                    >



                    > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The



                    >



                    > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257



                    >



                    > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami



                    >



                    > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:



                    >



                    > A Talk With Rami Nuri.



                    >



                    > I've



                    > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early



                    >



                    > books and read from the beginning, looking at



                    >


                    0D
                    > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over



                    >



                    > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at



                    >



                    > this point in time. I'm discovering things that



                    >



                    > had20escaped me up until now.



                    >



                    > Etznab



                    >



                    > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                    >



                    > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



                    >



                    > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



                    >



                    > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



                    >



                    > or contemplate upon his Physical image via



                    >



                    > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



                    >



                    > of an Astral image. How is this the same as



                    >



                    > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



                    >



                    > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



                    >



                    > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



                    >



                    > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



                    >



                    > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



                    >



                    > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



                    >



                    > of the Lower Planes=2
                    0just as all other religions



                    >



                    > teach and other "believers" experience!



                    >



                    > Prometheus



                    >



                    > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



                    >



                    > Hello All,



                    >



                    > It was bad enough that HK sold



                    >



                    > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



                    >



                    > portrait. Now he's selling the "True



                    >



                    > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



                    > 0D



                    >



                    > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                    =0

                    A

                    >



                    > portrait accurately? No, not quite!



                    >



                    > The truth has (once again) been



                    >



                    > embellished and distorted! Klemp,



                    >



                    > no doubt, likes this rendition because



                    >



                    > it makes him appear younger. Thus,



                    >



                    > this drawing looks more "sketch"



                    >



                    > like than portrait like!



                    >



                    > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



                    >



                    > a more modern, shaved look, and



                    >



                    > does not appear as thin as it really



                    >



                    > is (t
                    he inside portion of his ear is



                    >



                    > different too).



                    >



                    > When looking at the front cover photo,



                    >



                    > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



                    >



                    > World of ECKankar" we can see that



                    >



                    > Klemp parts his hair on the side and



                    >



                    > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



                    >



                    > makes Klemp look younger.



                    >



                    > The question ECKists should be asking is,



                    >



                    > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



                    >



                    > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



                    >



                    > followers all want to "imagine" that they look



                    >



                    > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



                    >



                    > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



                    >



                    > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0

                    D



                    >



                    > I think it's funny that Klemp names



                    >



                    > this new portrait "True Friend." Would



                    >



                    > a "true friend" say such nasty



                    > and mean



                    >



                    > things to you? These RESAs and ot
                    her



                    >



                    > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



                    >



                    > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



                    >



                    > now they see that there are strings



                    >



                    > attached and that it's a one-way friend-



                    >



                    > ship.



                    >



                    > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



                    >



                    > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



                    >



                    > himself, or give it to you... free of



                    >



                    > charge? Hmmmmmm.



                    >



                    > On another note, I saw how Klemp can



                    >



                    > make even more money from his image.



                    >



                    > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



                    >



                    > as though he has a big hole running



                    >



                    > through his head. So, maybe HK could



                    >



                    > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



                    >



                    > The chain would go through his ears!



                    >



                    > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



                    >



                    > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK



                    >



                    > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



                    >


                    =0
                    A
                    > he does with portraits, books, etc.



                    >



                    > Prometheus



                    >



                    &

                    gt;



                    > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                    .yahoo.com



                    >



                    >



                    > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                    .yahoo.com



                    >



                    Send instant messages to your online friends

                    http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.