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Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
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      Hello Jay,
      Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
      you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
      been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
      archives), and there are Links and Files,
      also, that show and discuss many of these
      subjects as well. However, the main focus
      of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
      this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
      positioned himself to inherit it and how
      he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
      continue the lies, myth, and the belief
      systems (fear and faith) that all religions
      use. - P.

      Jay wrote:
      Dear Etznab
      >
      I my self am doing similar in studying back
      over the shariyat's to see how much of these
      two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
      me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
      But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
      vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
      at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
      he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
      Then of course there are the number of books
      written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
      on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
      the story on this enigma of a man:
      >
      The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
      of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
      >
      P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
      not actually contain "the whole truth"
      and that much is just a rehash of his
      previous opinions and speculations]
      >
      The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
      >
      P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
      denounced Klemp and his own book about
      his "Mahanta" experiences.]
      >
      Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
      >
      P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
      spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
      who took his place]
      >
      The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
      though the above books have helped move
      on from some of his theories and material,
      but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
      He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
      book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
      just type his name in and you'll find it.
      >
      P: *[David started the ball rolling]
      >
      Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
      to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
      of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
      he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
      to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
      on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
      the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
      set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
      with others..they're quite good.
      >
      Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
      of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
      its on you tube the link is
      >
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
      >
      As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
      girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
      apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
      the website is
      >
      http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html
      >
      Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
      of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
      when kicked out of Eck.
      >
      P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
      Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
      >
      Also as you may know there are a few other off
      shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
      actually can't remember him.. should have book
      marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
      he has his own line of past masters. Another
      guy who will mail you intro material is Master
      Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
      >
      I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
      haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
      I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
      hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
      far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
      perspective of where I may be going next. What
      really makes his insights for us all stand out are
      two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
      in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
      master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
      all the time his students said he was with them
      on the inner planes and how they would praise
      him for his place in their spiritual development,
      he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
      nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
      students on the inner planes...I mean come on
      how profound is this.
      >
      Though we are on the intellectual level only with
      all this talk..it is basic and important though.
      I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
      I've practised the HU chant all this time and
      studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
      of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
      i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
      or ignored the possible science of the brain that
      maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
      to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd
      initiate always told it was my choice, though
      I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
      be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
      >
      >
      P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
      under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
      professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
      you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
      (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
      do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
      >
      >
      I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
      and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
      remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
      >
      Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
      of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
      >
      http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html
      >
      hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
      >
      Jay


      >
      > From: etznab
      >
      > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
      >
      > Prometheus,
      >
      > No. I haven't.
      >
      > The reference to number seven interests me.
      > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
      > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
      > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
      > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
      > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
      > them all. Like, something on another level, so
      > to speak. Examples:
      >
      > p. 156
      >
      > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
      > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
      > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
      > all!"
      >
      > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
      > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
      > not sure. That quote is on the second page
      > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
      > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
      >
      > For some reason, I'm under the impression
      > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
      > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
      > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
      > the same book.
      >
      > p. 195
      >
      > "When I want to show the world my highest
      > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
      > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
      > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
      > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
      > final for he represents my power in the seven
      > lower worlds."
      >
      > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
      > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
      >
      > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
      > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
      > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
      > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
      > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
      > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
      > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
      >
      > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
      >
      > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
      > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
      > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
      > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
      > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
      > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
      > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
      > book would mention this many and then the
      > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
      > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
      > haste, and will have to go back & check the
      > names of the planes for accuracy.)
      >
      > In the next chapter following that one (THE
      > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
      > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
      > of the chapter:
      >
      > p. 197
      >
      > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
      > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
      > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
      > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
      > you will then know for yourself. [....]
      >
      > p. 199
      >
      > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
      > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
      > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
      > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
      > creations throughout the seven spheres."
      >
      > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
      > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
      > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
      > other time mentions seven spheres.
      >
      > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
      > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
      > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
      > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
      >
      > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
      > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
      > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
      > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
      > a total of only seven planets.
      >
      > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
      > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
      > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
      > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
      > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
      > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
      > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
      > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
      > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
      > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
      > was already known to history? How much was in
      > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
      > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
      > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
      > how much of the material had actually come direct
      > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
      > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
      >
      > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
      > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
      > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
      > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
      >
      > Etznab
      >
      >
      > Hello Etznab,
      >
      > You make some good points and have
      >
      > brought up more information to point
      >
      > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
      >
      > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
      >
      > and D.W.T.M. later.
      >
      >
      > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
      >
      > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
      >
      > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
      >
      > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
      >
      > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
      >
      > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
      >
      > overlook this point. And, look at how
      >
      > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
      >
      > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
      >
      > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
      >
      > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
      >
      > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
      >
      > under Klemp's rule(s)!
      >
      >
      > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
      >
      > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
      >
      > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
      >
      > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
      >
      > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
      >
      > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
      >
      > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
      >
      > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
      >
      > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
      >
      > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
      >
      > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
      >
      > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
      >
      > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
      >
      > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
      >
      > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
      >
      > Plane!
      >
      > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
      >
      > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
      >
      > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
      >
      > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
      >
      > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
      >
      > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
      >
    • Jason Mc Dermott
      Hi Prometheus Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y know somewhere to
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Prometheus

        Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y'know somewhere to start..interesting line of inquiry though. Also thanks for the detail on becoming a 5th initiate I never really looked into it though. The sites great with all the files you've put up..great help.

        Thanks again

        Jay




        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 5:02:45
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

        Hello Jay,
        Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
        you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
        been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
        archives), and there are Links and Files,
        also, that show and discuss many of these
        subjects as well. However, the main focus
        of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
        this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
        positioned himself to inherit it and how
        he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
        continue the lies, myth, and the belief
        systems (fear and faith) that all religions
        use. - P.

        Jay wrote:
        Dear Etznab

        >
        I my self am doing similar in studying back
        over the shariyat's to see how much of these
        two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
        me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
        But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
        vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
        at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
        he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
        Then of course there are the number of books
        written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
        on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
        the story on this enigma of a man:
        >
        The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
        of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
        >
        P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
        not actually contain "the whole truth"
        and that much is just a rehash of his
        previous opinions and speculations]
        >
        The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
        >
        P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
        denounced Klemp and his own book about
        his "Mahanta" experiences. ]
        >
        Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
        >
        P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
        spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
        who took his place]
        >
        The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
        though the above books have helped move
        on from some of his theories and material,
        but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
        He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
        book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
        just type his name in and you'll find it.
        >
        P: *[David started the ball rolling]
        >
        Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
        to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
        of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
        he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
        to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
        on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
        the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
        set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
        with others..they' re quite good.
        >
        Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
        of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
        its on you tube the link is
        >
        http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego& feature=related
        >
        As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
        girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
        apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
        the website is
        >
        http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html
        >
        Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
        of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
        when kicked out of Eck.
        >
        P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
        Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
        >
        Also as you may know there are a few other off
        shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
        actually can't remember him.. should have book
        marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
        he has his own line of past masters. Another
        guy who will mail you intro material is Master
        Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
        >
        I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
        haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
        I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
        hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
        far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
        perspective of where I may be going next. What
        really makes his insights for us all stand out are
        two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
        in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
        master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
        all the time his students said he was with them
        on the inner planes and how they would praise
        him for his place in their spiritual development,
        he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
        nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
        students on the inner planes...I mean come on
        how profound is this.
        >
        Though we are on the intellectual level only with
        all this talk..it is basic and important though.
        I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
        I've practised the HU chant all this time and
        studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
        of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
        i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
        or ignored the possible science of the brain that
        maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
        to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd
        initiate always told it was my choice, though
        I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
        be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
        >
        >
        P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
        under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
        professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
        you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
        (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
        do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
        >
        >
        I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
        and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
        remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
        >
        Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
        of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
        >
        http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html
        >
        hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
        >
        Jay


        >
        > From: etznab
        >
        > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
        >
        > Prometheus,
        >
        > No. I haven't.
        >
        > The reference to number seven interests me.
        > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
        > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
        > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
        > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
        > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
        > them all. Like, something on another level, so
        > to speak. Examples:
        >
        > p. 156
        >
        > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
        > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
        > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
        > all!"
        >
        > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
        > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
        > not sure. That quote is on the second page
        > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
        > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
        >
        > For some reason, I'm under the impression
        > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
        > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
        > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
        > the same book.
        >
        > p. 195
        >
        > "When I want to show the world my highest
        > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
        > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
        > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
        > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
        > final for he represents my power in the seven
        > lower worlds."
        >
        > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
        > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
        >
        > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
        > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
        > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
        > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
        > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
        > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
        > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
        >
        > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
        >
        > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
        > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
        > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
        > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
        > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
        > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
        > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
        > book would mention this many and then the
        > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
        > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
        > haste, and will have to go back & check the
        > names of the planes for accuracy.)
        >
        > In the next chapter following that one (THE
        > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
        > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
        > of the chapter:
        >
        > p. 197
        >
        > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
        > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
        > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
        > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
        > you will then know for yourself. [....]
        >
        > p. 199
        >
        > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
        > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
        > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
        > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
        > creations throughout the seven spheres."
        >
        > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
        > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
        > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
        > other time mentions seven spheres.
        >
        > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
        > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
        > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
        > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
        >
        > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
        > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
        > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
        > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
        > a total of only seven planets.
        >
        > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
        > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
        > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
        > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
        > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
        > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
        > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
        > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
        > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
        > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
        > was already known to history? How much was in
        > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
        > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
        > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
        > how much of the material had actually come direct
        > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
        > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
        >
        > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
        > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
        > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
        > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
        >
        > Etznab
        >
        >
        > Hello Etznab,
        >
        > You make some good points and have
        >
        > brought up more information to point
        >
        > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
        >
        > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
        >
        > and D.W.T.M. later.
        >
        >
        > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
        >
        > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
        >
        > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
        >
        > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
        >
        > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
        >
        > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
        >
        > overlook this point. And, look at how
        >
        > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
        >
        > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
        >
        > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
        >
        > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
        >
        > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
        >
        > under Klemp's rule(s)!
        >
        >
        > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
        >
        > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
        >
        > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
        >
        > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
        >
        > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
        >
        > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
        >
        > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
        >
        > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
        >
        > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
        >
        > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
        >
        > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
        >
        > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
        >
        > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
        >
        > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
        >
        > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
        >
        > Plane!
        >
        > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
        >
        > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
        >
        > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
        >
        > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
        >
        > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
        >
        > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
        >


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      • Jason Mc Dermott
        Dear Etznab Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I ve just come
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
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          Dear Etznab

           Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson features it as part of his hypothesis as us having multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher Consciousness Society website. You'll find them by clicking on the classes button and then the audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to them in order as not to get confused of what's being discussed and explained by Johnson,the particular section of Over soul seven and Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

          g'luk

          Jay


          From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 15:03:04
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

          Dear Etznab

          I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                     The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                      Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
          The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

          Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they' re quite good.

          Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
          As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

           Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

          I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

          Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

          I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

          Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
          http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html

          hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

          Jay




          From: "etznab@aol. com" <etznab@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

          Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

          Prometheus,

          No. I haven't.

          The reference to number seven interests me.
          Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
          mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
          Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
          me the impression of eight basic planes, where
          the eighth (and highest) was considered above
          them all. Like, something on another level, so
          to speak. Examples:

          p. 156

          "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
          of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
          of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
          all!"

          [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
          during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
          not sure. That quote is on the second page
          of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
          Question: Why does he mention seven?]

          For some reason, I'm under the impression
          that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
          a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
          8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
          the same book.

          p. 195

          "When I want to show the world my highest
          grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
          This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
          sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
          is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
          final for he represents my power in the seven
          lower worlds."

          [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
          I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

          Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
          my earlier post. The being supposed to have
          spoken those words was either Anami, or the
          SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
          have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
          story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
          Consider the last seven words in that quote:

          ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

          I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
          Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
          (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
          (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
          Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
          I suspect the earlier models had around eight
          planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
          book would mention this many and then the
          1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
          a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
          haste, and will have to go back & check the
          names of the planes for accuracy.)

          In the next chapter following that one (THE
          SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
          go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
          of the chapter:

          p. 197

          Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
          you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
          into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
          of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
          you will then know for yourself. [....]

          p. 199

          "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
          speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
          among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
          serve to take the message of the divine to all my
          creations throughout the seven spheres."

          Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
          by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
          once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
          other time mentions seven spheres.

          It was the context from those chapters that gave me
          the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
          etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
          place "above" them and making a total of eight.

          I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
          Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
          be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
          during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
          a total of only seven planets.

          As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
          starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
          notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
          when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
          and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
          1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
          take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
          the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
          (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
          materials. Like, how much of it was material that
          was already known to history? How much was in
          the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
          How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
          How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
          how much of the material had actually come direct
          from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
          (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

          This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
          so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
          history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
          other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
          "Body"

          Hello Etznab,

          You make some good points and have

          brought up more information to point

          out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

          I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

          and D.W.T.M. later.

          It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

          Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

          Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

          Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

          their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

          "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

          overlook this point. And, look at how

          many years Klemp has instructed EKists

          to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

          singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

          is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
          D

          Chakra is still being used after 28 years

          under Klemp's rule(s)!

          BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

          actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

          is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

          Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

          become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

          or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

          being that same Over-Soul which, then,

          becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

          by-pass the hierarchy and can become

          "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

          on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

          you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

          Prometheus

          p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

          LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

          where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

          resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

          Plane!

          Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

          thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

          Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

          with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

          Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

          [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

          Etznab wrote:

          I would like to know the difference between

          Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

          the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

          about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

          The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

          a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
          D

          Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

          This is something I've been contemplating

          for some time: What is different with the two

          types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

          about this subject).

          There's another thing on this subject, and it

          has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

          I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

          body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

          Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

          any of the other lower world bodies where there

          are many different ones - including the physical

          body.

          So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

          Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

          only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

          Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

          Something like another dimension.

          Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

          and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

          the Living Eck Master become so important?

          Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

          to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

          the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

          understanding is that the astral body is limited

          to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

          transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

          to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

          Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

          it reads like that was his first vis
          it. However, in

          the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

          Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

          already!

          ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

          A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

          Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

          to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

          D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

          T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

          getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

          Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

          Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

          the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

          only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

          quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

          Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

          Fang account and the year 1957.

          ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

          I wonder, were those two different books, the

          two different manuscripts, about the same basic

          experience?

          BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

          online version of The Path of the Masters? by

          Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

          entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

          Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

          Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

          on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

          Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

          A Talk With Rami Nuri.

          I've
          decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

          books and read from the beginning, looking at

          how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

          the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

          this point in time. I'm discovering things that

          had escaped me up until now.

          Etznab

          HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

          Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

          is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

          chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

          or contemplate upon his Physical image via

          his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

          of an Astral image. How is this the same as

          meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

          Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

          with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

          than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

          Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

          (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

          of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

          teach and other "believers" experience!

          Prometheus

          Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

          Hello All,

          It was bad enough that HK sold

          his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

          portrait. Now he's selling the "True

          Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
          0D

          But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

          portrait accurately? No, not quite!

          The truth has (once again) been

          embellished and distorted! Klemp,

          no doubt, likes this rendition because

          it makes him appear younger. Thus,

          this drawing looks more "sketch"

          like than portrait like!

          What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

          a more modern, shaved look, and

          does not appear as thin as it really

          is (the inside portion of his ear is

          different too).

          When looking at the front cover photo,

          of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

          World of ECKankar" we can see that

          Klemp parts his hair on the side and

          does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

          makes Klemp look younger.

          The question ECKists should be asking is,

          Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

          are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

          followers all want to "imagine" that they look

          "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

          Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

          rather than having an Astral Plane image!

          I think it's funny that Klemp names

          this new portrait "True Friend." Would

          a "true friend" say such nasty
          and mean

          things to you? These RESAs and other

          H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

          Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

          now they see that there are strings

          attached and that it's a one-way friend-

          ship.

          BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

          you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

          himself, or give it to you... free of

          charge? Hmmmmmm.

          On another note, I saw how Klemp can

          make even more money from his image.

          HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

          as though he has a big hole running

          through his head. So, maybe HK could

          have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

          The chain would go through his ears!

          He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

          $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

          will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

          he does with portraits, books, etc.

          Prometheus


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        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jay, Etznab, and All, Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it s fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that this is
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
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            Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
            Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
            fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
            that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
            this is similar to beating a dead horse
            when sorting out the truth from all the
            crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
            distracted from the current, now, happenings
            under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

            Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
            He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
            the hook via his distractions involving
            Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
            avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
            PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
            the lies and myth that Twitchell created
            in order to confuse the issue.

            Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
            but became more and more insane over
            time. And, look at those "creative" people
            in business who have scammed thousands
            of individuals out of their life savings! They
            even scammed hospitals and non-profit
            foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
            Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
            expected from a person who paid to be
            included in "The International Who's Who
            of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
            why do EKists need Klemp when they can
            "create" their own reality/destiny and make
            themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
            Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
            redundant and lives in the past by quoting
            historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
            EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
            with their current views of society and how
            it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
            are these relevant "insights" from these EK
            Masters?

            BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
            a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
            a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
            actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
            truth about Marman's book is that it comes
            much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

            Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
            "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
            that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
            as well!

            As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
            it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
            With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
            said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
            or any other EK Master!

            FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
            This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
            "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
            the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
            the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
            about this "upper region," although, it is referred
            to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
            looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
            happens because asking too many questions shows
            spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
            in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
            comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
            answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
            the same text that contain the conflicting info!
            This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
            works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
            or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
            within the Satsang Society.

            Prometheus

            Jay wrote:

            Dear Etznab

            Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
            its a fictional piece based on the well known
            metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
            I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
            features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
            multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
            in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
            Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
            by clicking on the classes button and then the
            audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
            them in order as not to get confused of what's
            being discussed and explained by Johnson,
            the particular section of Over soul seven and
            Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

            g'luk

            Jay

            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

            >
            >

            Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
            >
            Etznab,
            Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
            >
            Prometheus,

            Etznab wrote:
            > No. I haven't.
            >
            > The reference to number seven interests me.
            > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
            > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
            > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
            > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
            > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
            > them all. Like, something on another level, so
            > to speak. Examples:
            >
            > p. 156
            >
            > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
            > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
            > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
            > all!"
            >
            > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
            > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
            > not sure. That quote is on the second page
            > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
            > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
            >
            > For some reason, I'm under the impression
            > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
            > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
            > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
            > the same book.
            >
            > p. 195
            >
            > "When I want to show the world my highest
            > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
            > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
            > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
            > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
            > final for he represents my power in the seven
            > lower worlds."
            >
            > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
            > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
            >
            > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
            > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
            > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
            > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
            > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
            > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
            > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
            >
            > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
            >
            > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
            > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
            > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
            > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
            > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
            > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
            > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
            > book would mention this many and then the
            > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
            > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
            > haste, and will have to go back & check the
            > names of the planes for accuracy.)
            >
            > In the next chapter following that one (THE
            > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
            > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
            > of the chapter:
            >
            > p. 197
            >
            > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
            > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
            > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
            > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
            > you will then know for yourself. [....]
            >
            > p. 199
            >
            > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
            > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
            > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
            > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
            > creations throughout the seven spheres."
            >
            > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
            > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
            > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
            > other time mentions seven spheres.
            >
            > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
            > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
            > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
            > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
            >
            > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
            > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
            > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
            > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
            > a total of only seven planets.
            >
            > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
            > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
            > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
            > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
            > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
            > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
            > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
            > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
            > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
            > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
            > was already known to history? How much was in
            > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
            > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
            > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
            > how much of the material had actually come direct
            > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
            > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
            >
            > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
            > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
            > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
            > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
            >
            > Etznab
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
            > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
            > "Body"
            >
            > Hello Etznab,
            >
            > You make some good points and have
            >
            > brought up more information to point
            >
            > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
            >
            > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
            >
            > and D.W.T.M. later.
            >
            > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
            >
            > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
            >
            > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
            >
            > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
            >
            > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
            >
            > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
            >
            > overlook this point. And, look at how
            >
            > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
            >
            > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
            >
            > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
            >
            > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
            > D
            >
            > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
            >
            > under Klemp's rule(s)!
            >
            > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
            >
            > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
            >
            > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
            >
            > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
            >
            > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
            >
            > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
            >
            > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
            >
            > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
            >
            > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
            >
            > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
            >
            > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
            >
            > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
            >
            > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
            >
            > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
            >
            > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
            >
            > Plane!
            >
            > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
            >
            > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
            >
            > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
            >
            > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
            >
            > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
            >
            > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
            >
            > Etznab wrote:
            >
            > I would like to know the difference between
            >
            > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
            >
            > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
            >
            > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
            >
            > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
            >
            > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
            > D
            >
            > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
            >
            > This is something I've been contemplating
            >
            > for some time: What is different with the two
            >
            > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
            >
            > about this subject).
            >
            > There's another thing on this subject, and it
            >
            > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
            >
            > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
            >
            > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
            >
            > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
            >
            > any of the other lower world bodies where there
            >
            > are many different ones - including the physical
            >
            > body.
            >
            > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
            >
            > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
            >
            > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
            >
            > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
            >
            > Something like another dimension.
            >
            > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
            >
            > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
            >
            > the Living Eck Master become so important?
            >
            > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
            >
            > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
            >
            > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
            >
            > understanding is that the astral body is limited
            >
            > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
            >
            > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
            >
            > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
            >
            > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
            >
            > it reads like that was his first vis
            > it. However, in
            >
            > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
            >
            > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
            >
            > already!
            >
            > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
            >
            > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
            >
            > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
            >
            > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
            >
            > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
            >
            > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
            >
            > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
            >
            > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
            >
            > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
            >
            > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
            >
            > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
            >
            > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
            >
            > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
            >
            > Fang account and the year 1957.
            >
            > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
            >
            > I wonder, were those two different books, the
            >
            > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
            >
            > experience?
            >
            > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
            >
            > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
            >
            > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
            >
            > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
            >
            > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
            >
            > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
            >
            > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
            >
            > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
            >
            > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
            >
            > I've
            > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
            >
            > books and read from the beginning, looking at
            >
            > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
            >
            > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
            >
            > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
            >
            > had escaped me up until now.
            >
            > Etznab
            >
            > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
            >
            > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
            >
            > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
            >
            > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
            >
            > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
            >
            > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
            >
            > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
            >
            > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
            >
            > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
            >
            > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
            >
            > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
            >
            > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
            >
            > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
            >
            > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
            >
            > teach and other "believers" experience!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
            >
            > Hello All,
            >
            > It was bad enough that HK sold
            >
            > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
            >
            > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
            >
            > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
            > 0D
            >
            > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
            >
            > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
            >
            > The truth has (once again) been
            >
            > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
            >
            > no doubt, likes this rendition because
            >
            > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
            >
            > this drawing looks more "sketch"
            >
            > like than portrait like!
            >
            > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
            >
            > a more modern, shaved look, and
            >
            > does not appear as thin as it really
            >
            > is (the inside portion of his ear is
            >
            > different too).
            >
            > When looking at the front cover photo,
            >
            > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
            >
            > World of ECKankar" we can see that
            >
            > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
            >
            > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
            >
            > makes Klemp look younger.
            >
            > The question ECKists should be asking is,
            >
            > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
            >
            > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
            >
            > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
            >
            > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
            >
            > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
            >
            > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
            >
            > I think it's funny that Klemp names
            >
            > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
            >
            > a "true friend" say such nasty
            > and mean
            >
            > things to you? These RESAs and other
            >
            > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
            >
            > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
            >
            > now they see that there are strings
            >
            > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
            >
            > ship.
            >
            > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
            >
            > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
            >
            > himself, or give it to you... free of
            >
            > charge? Hmmmmmm.
            >
            > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
            >
            > make even more money from his image.
            >
            > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
            >
            > as though he has a big hole running
            >
            > through his head. So, maybe HK could
            >
            > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
            >
            > The chain would go through his ears!
            >
            > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
            >
            > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
            >
            > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
            >
            > he does with portraits, books, etc.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
            >
            >
            > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
            >
          • Jason Mc Dermott
            Hi Prometheus Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT s or HK s stuff being that
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Prometheus

              Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.

              Jay


              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

              Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
              Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
              fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
              that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
              this is similar to beating a dead horse
              when sorting out the truth from all the
              crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
              distracted from the current, now, happenings
              under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

              Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
              He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
              the hook via his distractions involving
              Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
              avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
              PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
              the lies and myth that Twitchell created
              in order to confuse the issue.

              Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
              but became more and more insane over
              time. And, look at those "creative" people
              in business who have scammed thousands
              of individuals out of their life savings! They
              even scammed hospitals and non-profit
              foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
              Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
              expected from a person who paid to be
              included in "The International Who's Who
              of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
              why do EKists need Klemp when they can
              "create" their own reality/destiny and make
              themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
              Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
              redundant and lives in the past by quoting
              historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
              EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
              with their current views of society and how
              it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
              are these relevant "insights" from these EK
              Masters?

              BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
              a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
              a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
              actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
              truth about Marman's book is that it comes
              much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

              Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
              "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
              that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
              as well!

              As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
              it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
              With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
              said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
              or any other EK Master!

              FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
              This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
              "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
              the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
              the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
              about this "upper region," although, it is referred
              to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
              looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
              happens because asking too many questions shows
              spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
              in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
              comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
              answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
              the same text that contain the conflicting info!
              This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
              works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
              or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
              within the Satsang Society.

              Prometheus

              Jay wrote:

              Dear Etznab

              Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
              its a fictional piece based on the well known
              metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
              I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
              features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
              multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
              in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
              Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
              by clicking on the classes button and then the
              audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
              them in order as not to get confused of what's
              being discussed and explained by Johnson,
              the particular section of Over soul seven and
              Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

              g'luk

              Jay

              >
              >
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>

              >
              >

              Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
              >
              Etznab,
              Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
              >
              Prometheus,

              Etznab wrote:
              > No. I haven't.
              >
              > The reference to number seven interests me.
              > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
              > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
              > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
              > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
              > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
              > them all. Like, something on another level, so
              > to speak. Examples:
              >
              > p. 156
              >
              > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
              > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
              > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
              > all!"
              >
              > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
              > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
              > not sure. That quote is on the second page
              > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
              > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
              >
              > For some reason, I'm under the impression
              > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
              > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
              > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
              > the same book.
              >
              > p. 195
              >
              > "When I want to show the world my highest
              > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
              > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
              > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
              > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
              > final for he represents my power in the seven
              > lower worlds."
              >
              > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
              > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
              >
              > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
              > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
              > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
              > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
              > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
              > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
              > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
              >
              > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
              >
              > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
              > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
              > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
              > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
              > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
              > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
              > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
              > book would mention this many and then the
              > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
              > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
              > haste, and will have to go back & check the
              > names of the planes for accuracy.)
              >
              > In the next chapter following that one (THE
              > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
              > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
              > of the chapter:
              >
              > p. 197
              >
              > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
              > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
              > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
              > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
              > you will then know for yourself. [....]
              >
              > p. 199
              >
              > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
              > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
              > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
              > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
              > creations throughout the seven spheres."
              >
              > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
              > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
              > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
              > other time mentions seven spheres.
              >
              > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
              > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
              > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
              > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
              >
              > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
              > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
              > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
              > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
              > a total of only seven planets.
              >
              > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
              > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
              > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
              > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
              > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
              > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
              > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
              > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
              > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
              > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
              > was already known to history? How much was in
              > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
              > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
              > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
              > how much of the material had actually come direct
              > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
              > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
              >
              > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
              > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
              > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
              > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
              > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
              > "Body"
              >
              > Hello Etznab,
              >
              > You make some good points and have
              >
              > brought up more information to point
              >
              > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
              >
              > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
              >
              > and D.W.T.M. later.
              >
              > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
              >
              > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
              >
              > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
              >
              > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
              >
              > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
              >
              > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
              >
              > overlook this point. And, look at how
              >
              > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
              >
              > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
              >
              > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
              >
              > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
              > D
              >
              > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
              >
              > under Klemp's rule(s)!
              >
              > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
              >
              > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
              >
              > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
              >
              > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
              >
              > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
              >
              > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
              >
              > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
              >
              > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
              >
              > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
              >
              > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
              >
              > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
              >
              > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
              >
              > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
              >
              > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
              >
              > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
              >
              > Plane!
              >
              > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
              >
              > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
              >
              > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
              >
              > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
              >
              > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
              >
              > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
              >
              > Etznab wrote:
              >
              > I would like to know the difference between
              >
              > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
              >
              > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
              >
              > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
              >
              > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
              >
              > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
              > D
              >
              > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
              >
              > This is something I've been contemplating
              >
              > for some time: What is different with the two
              >
              > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
              >
              > about this subject).
              >
              > There's another thing on this subject, and it
              >
              > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
              >
              > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
              >
              > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
              >
              > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
              >
              > any of the other lower world bodies where there
              >
              > are many different ones - including the physical
              >
              > body.
              >
              > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
              >
              > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
              >
              > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
              >
              > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
              >
              > Something like another dimension.
              >
              > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
              >
              > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
              >
              > the Living Eck Master become so important?
              >
              > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
              >
              > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
              >
              > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
              >
              > understanding is that the astral body is limited
              >
              > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
              >
              > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
              >
              > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
              >
              > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
              >
              > it reads like that was his first vis
              > it. However, in
              >
              > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
              >
              > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
              >
              > already!
              >
              > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
              >
              > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
              >
              > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
              >
              > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
              >
              > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
              >
              > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
              >
              > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
              >
              > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
              >
              > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
              >
              > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
              >
              > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
              >
              > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
              >
              > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
              >
              > Fang account and the year 1957.
              >
              > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
              >
              > I wonder, were those two different books, the
              >
              > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
              >
              > experience?
              >
              > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
              >
              > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
              >
              > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
              >
              > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
              >
              > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
              >
              > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
              >
              > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
              >
              > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
              >
              > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
              >
              > I've
              > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
              >
              > books and read from the beginning, looking at
              >
              > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
              >
              > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
              >
              > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
              >
              > had escaped me up until now.
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
              >
              > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
              >
              > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
              >
              > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
              >
              > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
              >
              > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
              >
              > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
              >
              > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
              >
              > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
              >
              > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
              >
              > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
              >
              > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
              >
              > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
              >
              > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
              >
              > teach and other "believers" experience!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
              >
              > Hello All,
              >
              > It was bad enough that HK sold
              >
              > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
              >
              > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
              >
              > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
              > 0D
              >
              > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
              >
              > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
              >
              > The truth has (once again) been
              >
              > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
              >
              > no doubt, likes this rendition because
              >
              > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
              >
              > this drawing looks more "sketch"
              >
              > like than portrait like!
              >
              > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
              >
              > a more modern, shaved look, and
              >
              > does not appear as thin as it really
              >
              > is (the inside portion of his ear is
              >
              > different too).
              >
              > When looking at the front cover photo,
              >
              > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
              >
              > World of ECKankar" we can see that
              >
              > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
              >
              > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
              >
              > makes Klemp look younger.
              >
              > The question ECKists should be asking is,
              >
              > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
              >
              > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
              >
              > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
              >
              > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
              >
              > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
              >
              > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
              >
              > I think it's funny that Klemp names
              >
              > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
              >
              > a "true friend" say such nasty
              > and mean
              >
              > things to you? These RESAs and other
              >
              > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
              >
              > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
              >
              > now they see that there are strings
              >
              > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
              >
              > ship.
              >
              > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
              >
              > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
              >
              > himself, or give it to you... free of
              >
              > charge? Hmmmmmm.
              >
              > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
              >
              > make even more money from his image.
              >
              > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
              >
              > as though he has a big hole running
              >
              > through his head. So, maybe HK could
              >
              > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
              >
              > The chain would go through his ears!
              >
              > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
              >
              > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
              >
              > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
              >
              > he does with portraits, books, etc.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
              >
              >
              > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
              >


              Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
            • noneckster
              RESPONDING TO THE THREAD: I think it s worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                RESPONDING TO THE THREAD:

                I think it's worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very core. To reread eck books hoping to get some wisdom is foolish imo. It's like drinking Koolaide that tastes like a sugary drink, but may be tainted with poison. : ) Current eckists are just willfully ignorant. There really isn't much of an excuse for their behavior, at this point. If Iranians can communicate and find out information via the internet and cell phone, then access in other Democracies around the world is a click away. Those practicing eckist of today are simply CHOOSING to not know all the facts.

                Before the internet I could understand how it was easier to get duped, conned. The past is the past, for sure, but to not know the past, of course, is to increase the likelihood of repeating it. The study of bad cultic and religious practices is a very important activity IMO.

                Non eckster ; )

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Prometheus
                >
                > Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.
                >
                > Jay
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                > Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                > fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                > that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                > this is similar to beating a dead horse
                > when sorting out the truth from all the
                > crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                > distracted from the current, now, happenings
                > under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.
                >
                > Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                > He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                > the hook via his distractions involving
                > Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                > avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                > PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                > the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                > in order to confuse the issue.
                >
                > Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                > but became more and more insane over
                > time. And, look at those "creative" people
                > in business who have scammed thousands
                > of individuals out of their life savings! They
                > even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                > foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                > Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                > expected from a person who paid to be
                > included in "The International Who's Who
                > of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                > why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                > "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                > themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                > Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                > redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                > historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                > EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                > with their current views of society and how
                > it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                > are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                > Masters?
                >
                > BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                > a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                > a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                > actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                > truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                > much closer to Fiction than to "truth."
                >
                > Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                > "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                > that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                > as well!
                >
                > As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                > it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                > With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                > said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                > or any other EK Master!
                >
                > FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                > This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                > "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                > the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                > the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                > about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                > to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                > looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                > happens because asking too many questions shows
                > spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                > in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                > comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                > answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                > the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                > This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                > works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                > or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                > within the Satsang Society.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > Jay wrote:
                >
                > Dear Etznab
                >
                > Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                > its a fictional piece based on the well known
                > metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                > I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                > features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                > multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                > in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                > Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                > by clicking on the classes button and then the
                > audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                > them in order as not to get confused of what's
                > being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                > the particular section of Over soul seven and
                > Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.
                >
                > g'luk
                >
                > Jay
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>
                >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                > >
                > Etznab,
                > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                > >
                > Prometheus,
                >
                > Etznab wrote:
                > > No. I haven't.
                > >
                > > The reference to number seven interests me.
                > > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                > > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                > > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                > > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                > > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                > > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                > > to speak. Examples:
                > >
                > > p. 156
                > >
                > > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                > > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                > > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                > > all!"
                > >
                > > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                > > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                > > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                > > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                > > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                > >
                > > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                > > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                > > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                > > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                > > the same book.
                > >
                > > p. 195
                > >
                > > "When I want to show the world my highest
                > > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                > > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                > > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                > > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                > > final for he represents my power in the seven
                > > lower worlds."
                > >
                > > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                > > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                > >
                > > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                > > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                > > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                > > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                > > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                > > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                > > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                > >
                > > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                > >
                > > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                > > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                > > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                > > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                > > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                > > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                > > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                > > book would mention this many and then the
                > > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                > > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                > > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                > > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                > >
                > > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                > > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                > > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                > > of the chapter:
                > >
                > > p. 197
                > >
                > > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                > > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                > > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                > > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                > > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                > >
                > > p. 199
                > >
                > > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                > > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                > > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                > > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                > > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                > >
                > > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                > > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                > > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                > > other time mentions seven spheres.
                > >
                > > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                > > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                > > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                > > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                > >
                > > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                > > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                > > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                > > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                > > a total of only seven planets.
                > >
                > > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                > > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                > > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                > > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                > > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                > > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                > > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                > > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                > > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                > > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                > > was already known to history? How much was in
                > > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                > > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                > > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                > > how much of the material had actually come direct
                > > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                > > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                > >
                > > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                > > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                > > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                > > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                > >
                > > Etznab
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                > > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                > > "Body"
                > >
                > > Hello Etznab,
                > >
                > > You make some good points and have
                > >
                > > brought up more information to point
                > >
                > > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                > >
                > > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                > >
                > > and D.W.T.M. later.
                > >
                > > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                > >
                > > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                > >
                > > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                > >
                > > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                > >
                > > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                > >
                > > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                > >
                > > overlook this point. And, look at how
                > >
                > > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                > >
                > > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                > >
                > > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                > >
                > > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                > > D
                > >
                > > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                > >
                > > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                > >
                > > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                > >
                > > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                > >
                > > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                > >
                > > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                > >
                > > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                > >
                > > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                > >
                > > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                > >
                > > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                > >
                > > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                > >
                > > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                > >
                > > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                > >
                > > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                > >
                > > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                > >
                > > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                > >
                > > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                > >
                > > Plane!
                > >
                > > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                > >
                > > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                > >
                > > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                > >
                > > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                > >
                > > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                > >
                > > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                > >
                > > Etznab wrote:
                > >
                > > I would like to know the difference between
                > >
                > > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                > >
                > > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                > >
                > > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                > >
                > > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                > >
                > > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                > > D
                > >
                > > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                > >
                > > This is something I've been contemplating
                > >
                > > for some time: What is different with the two
                > >
                > > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                > >
                > > about this subject).
                > >
                > > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                > >
                > > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                > >
                > > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                > >
                > > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                > >
                > > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                > >
                > > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                > >
                > > are many different ones - including the physical
                > >
                > > body.
                > >
                > > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                > >
                > > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                > >
                > > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                > >
                > > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                > >
                > > Something like another dimension.
                > >
                > > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                > >
                > > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                > >
                > > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                > >
                > > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                > >
                > > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                > >
                > > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                > >
                > > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                > >
                > > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                > >
                > > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                > >
                > > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                > >
                > > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                > >
                > > it reads like that was his first vis
                > > it. However, in
                > >
                > > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                > >
                > > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                > >
                > > already!
                > >
                > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                > >
                > > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                > >
                > > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                > >
                > > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                > >
                > > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                > >
                > > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                > >
                > > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                > >
                > > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                > >
                > > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                > >
                > > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                > >
                > > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                > >
                > > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                > >
                > > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                > >
                > > Fang account and the year 1957.
                > >
                > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                > >
                > > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                > >
                > > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                > >
                > > experience?
                > >
                > > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                > >
                > > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                > >
                > > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                > >
                > > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                > >
                > > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                > >
                > > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                > >
                > > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                > >
                > > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                > >
                > > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                > >
                > > I've
                > > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                > >
                > > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                > >
                > > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                > >
                > > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                > >
                > > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                > >
                > > had escaped me up until now.
                > >
                > > Etznab
                > >
                > > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                > >
                > > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                > >
                > > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                > >
                > > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                > >
                > > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                > >
                > > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                > >
                > > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                > >
                > > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                > >
                > > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                > >
                > > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                > >
                > > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                > >
                > > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                > >
                > > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                > >
                > > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                > >
                > > teach and other "believers" experience!
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                > >
                > > Hello All,
                > >
                > > It was bad enough that HK sold
                > >
                > > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                > >
                > > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                > >
                > > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                > > 0D
                > >
                > > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                > >
                > > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                > >
                > > The truth has (once again) been
                > >
                > > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                > >
                > > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                > >
                > > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                > >
                > > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                > >
                > > like than portrait like!
                > >
                > > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                > >
                > > a more modern, shaved look, and
                > >
                > > does not appear as thin as it really
                > >
                > > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                > >
                > > different too).
                > >
                > > When looking at the front cover photo,
                > >
                > > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                > >
                > > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                > >
                > > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                > >
                > > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                > >
                > > makes Klemp look younger.
                > >
                > > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                > >
                > > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                > >
                > > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                > >
                > > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                > >
                > > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                > >
                > > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                > >
                > > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                > >
                > > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                > >
                > > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                > >
                > > a "true friend" say such nasty
                > > and mean
                > >
                > > things to you? These RESAs and other
                > >
                > > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                > >
                > > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                > >
                > > now they see that there are strings
                > >
                > > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                > >
                > > ship.
                > >
                > > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                > >
                > > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                > >
                > > himself, or give it to you... free of
                > >
                > > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                > >
                > > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                > >
                > > make even more money from his image.
                > >
                > > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                > >
                > > as though he has a big hole running
                > >
                > > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                > >
                > > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                > >
                > > The chain would go through his ears!
                > >
                > > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                > >
                > > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                > >
                > > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                > >
                > > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > >
                > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                > >
                > >
                > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Jay and All, Marman is connected to Klemp because he is an EKist (7th Initiate) and claims to be a long-time friend of HK s. Marman (Doug) is an
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
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                  Hello Jay and All,
                  Marman is connected to Klemp
                  because he is an EKist (7th Initiate)
                  and claims to be a long-time friend
                  of HK's. Marman (Doug) is an apologist
                  for both Klemp and PT, and has a
                  following from an EK fringe group.
                  Just read some of DM's older dialogue
                  and arguments, especially, with David
                  Lane. Steve Runfeldt (EK Internet PR
                  Guru) is another EK apologist who, also,
                  rates a D- when debating (online) with
                  David Lane.

                  BTW- I think that I first read Jane Roberts'
                  books in the early 1970's and once was
                  tempted to stop by for a short visit with
                  her and her husband in Binghamton (since
                  I was passing through at the time). But,
                  my passenger didn't want to stop. I got
                  the impression from reading her books
                  that writing, for Jane, was like a form of
                  therapy that helped to give her some sort
                  of balance, peace of mind, and meaning
                  for her life that helped it all to make sense.
                  From her descriptions, about herself, she
                  came across as having a lot of nervous
                  energy and smoking her cigarettes seemed
                  to calm her. 8th Initiate Millie (Workman)
                  Moore was much the same, but used the
                  spoken word versus the written word.

                  BTW-What do you think about Marman's
                  TS comments about Rebazar and the Holocaust
                  "probably" being myth?

                  Prometheus


                  Jay wrote:

                  Hi Prometheus

                  Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word
                  but how is Marman connected with HK?..and
                  yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                  being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over
                  7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence
                  of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth
                  stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab
                  had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking
                  back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past
                  is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the
                  present.

                  Jay

                  From: prometheus
                  Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                  Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                  Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                  fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                  that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                  this is similar to beating a dead horse
                  when sorting out the truth from all the
                  crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                  distracted from the current, now, happenings
                  under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                  Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                  He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                  the hook via his distractions involving
                  Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                  avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                  PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                  the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                  in order to confuse the issue.

                  Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                  but became more and more insane over
                  time. And, look at those "creative" people
                  in business who have scammed thousands
                  of individuals out of their life savings! They
                  even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                  foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                  Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                  expected from a person who paid to be
                  included in "The International Who's Who
                  of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                  why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                  "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                  themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                  Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                  redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                  historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                  EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                  with their current views of society and how
                  it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                  are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                  Masters?

                  BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                  a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                  a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                  actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                  truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                  much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                  Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                  "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                  that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                  as well!

                  As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                  it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                  With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                  said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                  or any other EK Master!

                  FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                  This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                  "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                  the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                  the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                  about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                  to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                  looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                  happens because asking too many questions shows
                  spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                  in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                  comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                  answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                  the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                  This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                  works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                  or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                  within the Satsang Society.

                  Prometheus

                  Jay wrote:

                  Dear Etznab

                  Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                  its a fictional piece based on the well known
                  metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                  I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                  features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                  multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                  in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                  Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                  by clicking on the classes button and then the
                  audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                  them in order as not to get confused of what's
                  being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                  the particular section of Over soul seven and
                  Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                  g'luk

                  Jay

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > From: Jason

                  >
                  >

                  Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                  >
                  Etznab,
                  Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                  >
                  Prometheus,

                  Etznab wrote:
                  > No. I haven't.
                  >
                  > The reference to number seven interests me.
                  > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                  > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                  > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                  > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                  > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                  > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                  > to speak. Examples:
                  >
                  > p. 156
                  >
                  > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                  > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                  > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                  > all!"
                  >
                  > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                  > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                  > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                  > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                  > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                  >
                  > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                  > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                  > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                  > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                  > the same book.
                  >
                  > p. 195
                  >
                  > "When I want to show the world my highest
                  > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                  > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                  > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                  > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                  > final for he represents my power in the seven
                  > lower worlds."
                  >
                  > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                  > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                  >
                  > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                  > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                  > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                  > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                  > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                  > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                  > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                  >
                  > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                  >
                  > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                  > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                  > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                  > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                  > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                  > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                  > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                  > book would mention this many and then the
                  > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                  > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                  > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                  > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                  >
                  > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                  > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                  > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                  > of the chapter:
                  >
                  > p. 197
                  >
                  > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                  > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                  > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                  > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                  > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                  >
                  > p. 199
                  >
                  > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                  > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                  > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                  > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                  > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                  >
                  > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                  > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                  > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                  > other time mentions seven spheres.
                  >
                  > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                  > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                  > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                  > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                  >
                  > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                  > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                  > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                  > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                  > a total of only seven planets.
                  >
                  > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                  > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                  > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                  > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                  > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                  > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                  > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                  > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                  > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                  > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                  > was already known to history? How much was in
                  > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                  > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                  > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                  > how much of the material had actually come direct
                  > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                  > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                  >
                  > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                  > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                  > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                  > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  I m not so sure the past is a dead horse . In fact, I would call it very much alive and is the basis for many people s present & future beliefs about numerous
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".
                    In fact, I would call it very much alive and is
                    the basis for many people's present & future
                    beliefs about numerous things.

                    Going back and clarifying the past is what
                    I am seeking to do, by isolating the context
                    of those many stories I have read and heard
                    told in Eckankar books and discussions.

                    This is something I've been wanting to do
                    for a long time. Establish the "context". For
                    example, What is the literal truth and what
                    is not?

                    Here is why I think this important. When I
                    can prove beyond a doubt that something is
                    fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that
                    regard. It's power over me would not be the
                    same, not have the same influence & power
                    over my belief system and psyche as some-
                    thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With
                    myth and fiction - knowing a source is that -
                    it leaves me with the liberty to explore further
                    and to learn how the story came about in the
                    first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the
                    people who take pseudo religion and history
                    to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.
                    I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &
                    infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my
                    conscience, living with the thought I am know-
                    ingly spreading fact for fiction.

                    BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.
                    I'm just now getting around to reading mail.

                    Etznab





                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                    Soul "Body"








                    Hi Prometheus

                    Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman
                    connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                    being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just
                    mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane
                    Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had
                    in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a
                    dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk
                    in the present.

                    Jay

                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                    "Body"













                    Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,

                    Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's

                    fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam

                    that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that

                    this is similar to beating a dead horse

                    when sorting out the truth from all the

                    crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be

                    distracted from the current, now, happenings

                    under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.


                    =0
                    A
                    Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.

                    He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off

                    the hook via his distractions involving

                    Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,

                    avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon

                    PT's "creative writing" by manipulating

                    the lies and myth that Twitchell created

                    in order to confuse the issue.



                    Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,

                    but became more and more insane over

                    time. And, look at those "creative" people

                    in business who have scammed thousands

                    of individuals out of their life savings! They

                    even scammed hospitals and non-profit

                    foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!

                    Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's

                    expected from a person who paid to be

                    included in "The International Who's Who

                    of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,

                    why do EKists need Klemp when they can

                    "create" their own reality/destiny and make

                    themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a

                    Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is

                    redundant and lives in the past by quoting

                    historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote

                    EK Masters, still living in a physical body,

                    with their current views of society and how

                    it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where

                    are these relevant "insights" from these EK

                    Masters?



                    BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote

                    a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes

                    a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,

                    actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real

                    truth about Marman's book is that it comes

                    much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                    Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that

                    "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and

                    that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"

                    as well!



                    As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"

                    it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues

                    With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever

                    said/written about his discussions with Rebazar

                    or any other EK Master!



                    FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!

                    This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the

                    "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as

                    the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as

                    the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned

                    about this "upper region," although, it is referred

                    to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-

                    looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This

                    happens because asking too many questions shows

                    spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and

                    in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"

                    comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for

                    answers. However, all "answers" must agree with

                    the same text that contain the conflicting info!

                    This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma

                    works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,

                    or they're Black Ball
                    ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"

                    within the Satsang Society.



                    Prometheus



                    Jay wrote:



                    Dear Etznab



                    Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,

                    its a fictional piece based on the well known

                    metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..

                    I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson

                    features it as part of his hypothesis as us having

                    multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,

                    in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher

                    Consciousness Society website. You'll find them

                    by clicking on the classes button and then the

                    audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to

                    them in order as not to get confused of what's

                    being discussed and explained by Johnson,

                    the particular section of Over soul seven and

                    Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                    g'luk



                    Jay



                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > ____________ _________ _________ __

                    > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                    >

                    >



                    Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                    >

                    Etznab,

                    Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                    >

                    Prometheus,



                    Etznab wrote:

                    > No. I haven't.

                    >

                    > The reference to number seven interests me.

                    > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are

                    > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v
                    ersion of

                    > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave

                    > me the impression of eight basic planes, where

                    > the eighth (and highest) was considered above

                    > them all. Like, something on another level, so

                    > to speak. Examples:

                    >

                    > p. 156

                    >

                    > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet

                    > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres

                    > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear

                    > all!"

                    >

                    > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,

                    > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm

                    > not sure. That quote is on the second page

                    > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.

                    > Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                    >

                    > For some reason, I'm under the impression

                    > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from

                    > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the

                    > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in

                    > the same book.

                    >

                    > p. 195

                    >

                    > "When I want to show the world my highest

                    > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.

                    > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the

                    > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will

                    > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree

                    > final for he represents my power in the seven

                    > lower worlds."

                    >

                    > [That was fro
                    m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.

                    > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                    >

                    > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in

                    > my earlier post. The being supposed to have

                    > spoken those words was either Anami, or the

                    > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could

                    > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that

                    > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.

                    > Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                    >

                    > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                    >

                    > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.

                    > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?

                    > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental

                    > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami

                    > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but

                    > I suspect the earlier models had around eight

                    > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's

                    > book would mention this many and then the

                    > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give

                    > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative

                    > haste, and will have to go back & check the

                    > names of the planes for accuracy.)

                    >

                    > In the next chapter following that one (THE

                    > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs

                    > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph

                    > of the chapter:

                    >

                    > p. 1
                    97

                    >

                    > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take

                    > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond

                    > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth

                    > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So

                    > you will then know for yourself. [....]

                    >

                    > p. 199

                    >

                    > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,

                    > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are

                    > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must

                    > serve to take the message of the divine to all my

                    > creations throughout the seven spheres."

                    >

                    > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And

                    > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,

                    > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-

                    > other time mentions seven spheres.

                    >

                    > It was the context from those chapters that gave me

                    > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",

                    > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a

                    > place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                    >

                    > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.

                    > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to

                    > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even

                    > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in

                    > a total of only seven planets.

                    >

                    > As I begin re
                    ading through the Eck books again -

                    > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious

                    > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,

                    > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing

                    > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's

                    > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to

                    > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand

                    > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was

                    > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                    > materials. Like, how much of it was material that

                    > was already known to history? How much was in

                    > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D

                    > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?

                    > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,

                    > how much of the material had actually come direct

                    > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens

                    > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                    >

                    > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and

                    > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,

                    > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with

                    > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                    >

                    > Etznab

                    >

                    > -----Original Message-----

                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>

                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                    > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20
                    09 1:41 pm

                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.
                    the Soul

                    > "Body"

                    >

                    > Hello Etznab,

                    >

                    > You make some good points and have

                    >

                    > brought up more information to point

                    >

                    > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                    >

                    > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                    >

                    > and D.W.T.M. later.

                    >

                    > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                    >

                    > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                    >

                    > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                    >

                    > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                    >

                    > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                    >

                    > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                    >

                    > overlook this point. And, look at how

                    >

                    > many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                    >

                    > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                    >

                    > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                    >

                    > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0

                    > D

                    >

                    > Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                    >

                    > under Klemp's rule(s)!

                    >

                    > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                    >

                    > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                    >

                    > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                    >

                    > Over-Soul and that
                    these Souls need to

                    >

                    > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                    >

                    > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                    >

                    > being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                    >

                    > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                    >

                    > by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                    >

                    > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                    >

                    > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                    >

                    > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                    >

                    > Prometheus

                    >

                    > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                    >

                    > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                    >

                    > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                    >

                    > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                    >

                    > Plane!

                    >

                    > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                    >

                    > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                    >

                    > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                    >

                    > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                    >

                    > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                    >

                    > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                    >

                    > Etznab wrote:

                    >

                    > I would like to know the difference between

                    >

                    > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                    >

                    > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                    >

                    > about the inner=2
                    0form of the Living Eck Master.

                    >

                    > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                    >

                    > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0

                    > D

                    >

                    > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                    >

                    > This is something I've been contemplating

                    >

                    > for some time: What is different with the two

                    >

                    > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                    >

                    > about this subject).

                    >

                    > There's another thing on this subject, and it

                    >

                    > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                    >

                    > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                    >

                    > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                    >

                    > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                    >

                    > any of the other lower world bodies where there

                    >

                    > are many different ones - including the physical

                    >

                    > body.

                    >

                    > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                    >

                    > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                    >

                    > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                    >

                    > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                    >

                    > Something like another dimension.

                    >

                    > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                    >

                    > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                    >

                    > the L
                    iving Eck Master become so important?

                    >

                    > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                    >

                    > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                    >

                    > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                    >

                    > understanding is that the astral body is limited

                    >

                    > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                    >

                    > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                    >

                    > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                    >

                    > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                    >

                    > it reads like that was his first vis

                    > it. However, in

                    >

                    > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                    >

                    > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                    >

                    > already!

                    >

                    > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                    >

                    > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                    >

                    > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                    >

                    > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                    >

                    > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                    >

                    > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                    >

                    > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                    >

                    > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                    >

                    > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                    >

                    > the way to the nameless
                    plane. Anami. & not

                    >

                    > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                    >

                    > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                    >

                    > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                    >

                    > Fang account and the year 1957.

                    >

                    > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                    >

                    > I wonder, were those two different books, the

                    >

                    > two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                    >

                    > experience?

                    >

                    > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                    >

                    > online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                    >

                    > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                    >

                    > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                    >

                    > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                    >

                    > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                    >

                    > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                    >

                    > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                    >

                    > A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                    >

                    > I've

                    > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                    >

                    > books and read from the beginning, looking at

                    >

                    > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                    >

                    > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                    >

                    > this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                    >

                    > had20escaped me up until now.

                    >

                    > Etznab

                    >

                    > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                    >

                    > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                    >

                    > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                    >

                    > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                    >

                    > or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                    >

                    > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                    >

                    > of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                    >

                    > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                    >

                    > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                    >

                    > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                    >

                    > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                    >

                    > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                    >

                    > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                    >

                    > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                    >

                    > teach and other "believers" experience!

                    >

                    > Prometheus

                    >

                    > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                    >

                    > Hello All,

                    >

                    > It was bad enough that HK sold

                    >

                    > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                    >

                    > portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                    >

                    > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).

                    > 0D

                    >

                    > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                    =0
                    A
                    >

                    > portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                    >

                    > The truth has (once again) been

                    >

                    > embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                    >

                    > no doubt, likes this rendition because

                    >

                    > it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                    >

                    > this drawing looks more "sketch"

                    >

                    > like than portrait like!

                    >

                    > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                    >

                    > a more modern, shaved look, and

                    >

                    > does not appear as thin as it really

                    >

                    > is (the inside portion of his ear is

                    >

                    > different too).

                    >

                    > When looking at the front cover photo,

                    >

                    > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                    >

                    > World of ECKankar" we can see that

                    >

                    > Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                    >

                    > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                    >

                    > makes Klemp look younger.

                    >

                    > The question ECKists should be asking is,

                    >

                    > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                    >

                    > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                    >

                    > followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                    >

                    > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                    >

                    > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                    >

                    > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0
                    D

                    >

                    > I think it's funny that Klemp names

                    >

                    > this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                    >

                    > a "true friend" say such nasty

                    > and mean

                    >

                    > things to you? These RESAs and other

                    >

                    > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                    >

                    > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                    >

                    > now they see that there are strings

                    >

                    > attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                    >

                    > ship.

                    >

                    > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                    >

                    > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                    >

                    > himself, or give it to you... free of

                    >

                    > charge? Hmmmmmm.

                    >

                    > On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                    >

                    > make even more money from his image.

                    >

                    > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                    >

                    > as though he has a big hole running

                    >

                    > through his head. So, maybe HK could

                    >

                    > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                    >

                    > The chain would go through his ears!

                    >

                    > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                    >

                    > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                    >

                    > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                    >

                    > he does with portraits, books, etc.

                    >

                    > Prometheus

                    >

                    &
                    gt;

                    > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                    .yahoo.com

                    >

                    >

                    > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                    .yahoo.com

                    >











                    Send instant messages to your online friends
                    http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    Typo correction. The following sentence I don t have to have guilt on my conscience, living with the thought I am knowingly spreading fact for fiction.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Typo correction. The following sentence

                      "I don't have to have guilt on my conscience,
                      living with the thought I am knowingly spreading
                      fact for fiction."

                      should read: fiction for fact, instead of fact
                      for fiction.

                      Etznab

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: etznab@...
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 6:47 pm
                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                      Soul "Body"










                      I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".

                      In fact, I would call it very much alive and is

                      the basis for many people's present & future

                      beliefs about numerous things.



                      Going back and clarifying the past is what

                      I am seeking to do, by isolating the context

                      of those many stories I have read and heard

                      told in Eckankar books and discussions.



                      This is something I've been wanting to do

                      for a long time. Establish the "context". For

                      example, What is the literal truth and what

                      is not?



                      Here is why I think this important. When I

                      can prove beyond a doubt that something is

                      fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that

                      regard. It's power over me would not be the

                      same, not have the same influence & power

                      over my belief system and psyche as some-

                      thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With

                      myth and fiction - knowing a source is that
                      -

                      it leaves me with the liberty to explore further

                      and to learn how the story came about in the

                      first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the

                      people who take pseudo religion and history

                      to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.

                      I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &

                      infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my

                      conscience, living with the thought I am know-

                      ingly spreading fact for fiction.



                      BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.

                      I'm just now getting around to reading mail.



                      Etznab



                      -----Original Message-----

                      From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                      Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm

                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the

                      Soul "Body"



                      Hi Prometheus



                      Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman

                      connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff

                      being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just

                      mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane

                      Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had

                      in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a

                      dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk

                      in the present.



                      Jay



                      =0
                      AFrom: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                      Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08

                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul

                      "Body"



                      Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,



                      Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's



                      fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam



                      that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that



                      this is similar to beating a dead horse



                      when sorting out the truth from all the



                      crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be



                      distracted from the current, now, happenings



                      under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.



                      =0

                      A

                      Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.



                      He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off



                      the hook via his distractions involving



                      Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,



                      avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon



                      PT's "creative writing" by manipulating



                      the lies and myth that Twitchell created



                      in order to confuse the issue.



                      Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,



                      but became more and more insane over



                      time. And, look at those "creative" people



                      in business who have scammed thousands



                      of individuals out of their life savings! They



                      even scammed hospitals and non-profit



                      foundations!
                      Very "creative" weren't they!



                      Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's



                      expected from a person who paid to be



                      included in "The International Who's Who



                      of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,



                      why do EKists need Klemp when they can



                      "create" their own reality/destiny and make



                      themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a



                      Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is



                      redundant and lives in the past by quoting



                      historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote



                      EK Masters, still living in a physical body,



                      with their current views of society and how



                      it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where



                      are these relevant "insights" from these EK



                      Masters?



                      BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote



                      a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes



                      a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,



                      actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real



                      truth about Marman's book is that it comes



                      much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                      Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that



                      "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and



                      that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"



                      as well!



                      As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"



                      it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues




                      With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever



                      said/written about his discussions with Rebazar



                      or any other EK Master!



                      FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!



                      This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the



                      "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as



                      the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as



                      the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned



                      about this "upper region," although, it is referred



                      to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-



                      looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This



                      happens because asking too many questions shows



                      spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and



                      in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"



                      comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for



                      answers. However, all "answers" must agree with



                      the same text that contain the conflicting info!



                      This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma



                      works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,



                      or they're Black Ball

                      ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"



                      within the Satsang Society.



                      Prometheus



                      Jay wrote:



                      Dear Etznab



                      Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,



                      its a fictional piece based on the well20known



                      metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..



                      I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson



                      features it as part of his hypothesis as us having



                      multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,



                      in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher



                      Consciousness Society website. You'll find them



                      by clicking on the classes button and then the



                      audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to



                      them in order as not to get confused of what's



                      being discussed and explained by Johnson,



                      the particular section of Over soul seven and



                      Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                      g'luk



                      Jay



                      >



                      >



                      >



                      > ____________ _________ _________ __



                      > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                      >



                      >



                      Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                      >



                      Etznab,



                      Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                      >



                      Prometheus,



                      Etznab wrote:



                      > No. I haven't.



                      >



                      > The reference to number seven interests me.



                      > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are



                      > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v

                      ersion of=0
                      D



                      > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave



                      > me the impression of eight basic planes, where



                      > the eighth (and highest) was considered above



                      > them all. Like, something on another level, so



                      > to speak. Examples:



                      >



                      > p. 156



                      >



                      > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet



                      > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres



                      > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear



                      > all!"



                      >



                      > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,



                      > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm



                      > not sure. That quote is on the second page



                      > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.



                      > Question: Why does he mention seven?]



                      >



                      > For some reason, I'm under the impression



                      > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from



                      > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the



                      > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in



                      > the same book.



                      >



                      > p. 195



                      >



                      > "When I want to show the world my highest



                      > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.



                      > This is my greatest gift and boon.=2
                      0He is the



                      > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will



                      > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree



                      > final for he represents my power in the seven



                      > lower worlds."



                      >



                      > [That was fro

                      m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.



                      > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the



                      >



                      > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in



                      > my earlier post. The being supposed to have



                      > spoken those words was either Anami, or the



                      > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could



                      > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that



                      > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.



                      > Consider the last seven words in that quote:



                      >



                      > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."



                      >



                      > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.



                      > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?



                      > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental



                      > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami



                      > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but



                      > I suspect the earlier models had around eight



                      > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's



                      > book=2
                      0would mention this many and then the



                      > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give



                      > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative



                      > haste, and will have to go back & check the



                      > names of the planes for accuracy.)



                      >



                      > In the next chapter following that one (THE



                      > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs



                      > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph



                      > of the chapter:



                      >



                      > p. 1

                      97



                      >



                      > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take



                      > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond



                      > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth



                      > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So



                      > you will then know for yourself. [....]



                      >



                      > p. 199



                      >



                      > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,



                      > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are



                      > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must



                      > serve to take the message of the divine to all my



                      > creations throughout the seven spheres."



                      >



                      > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And



                      > by non
                      e other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,



                      > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-



                      > other time mentions seven spheres.



                      >



                      > It was the context from those chapters that gave me



                      > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",



                      > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a



                      > place "above" them and making a total of eight.



                      >



                      > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.



                      > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to



                      > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even



                      > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in



                      > a total of only seven planets.



                      >



                      > As I begin re

                      ading through the Eck books again -



                      > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious



                      > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,



                      > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing



                      > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's



                      > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to



                      > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand



                      > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was



                      > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                      =0
                      D

                      > materials. Like, how much of it was material that



                      > was already known to history? How much was in



                      > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D



                      > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?



                      > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,



                      > how much of the material had actually come direct



                      > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens



                      > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?



                      >



                      > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and



                      > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,



                      > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with



                      > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.



                      >



                      > Etznab



                      >



                      > -----Original Message-----



                      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>



                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com



                      > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20

                      09 1:41 pm



                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.

                      the Soul



                      > "Body"



                      >



                      > Hello Etznab,



                      >



                      > You make some good points and have



                      >



                      > brought up more information to point



                      =0
                      A>



                      > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.



                      >



                      > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"



                      >



                      > and D.W.T.M. later.



                      >



                      > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra



                      >



                      > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;



                      >



                      > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th



                      >



                      > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"



                      >



                      > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral



                      >



                      > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to



                      >



                      > overlook this point. And, look at how



                      >



                      > many years Klemp has instructed EKists



                      >



                      > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/



                      >



                      > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra



                      >



                      > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0



                      > D



                      >



                      > Chakra is still being used after 28 years



                      >



                      > under Klemp's rule(s)!



                      >



                      > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is



                      >



                      > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There



                      >



                      > is a belief that Groups
                      of Souls have an



                      >



                      > Over-Soul and that

                      these Souls need to



                      >



                      > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)



                      >



                      > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/



                      >



                      > being that same Over-Soul which, then,



                      >



                      > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can



                      >



                      > by-pass the hierarchy and can become



                      >



                      > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,



                      >



                      > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have



                      >



                      > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                      >



                      > Prometheus



                      >



                      > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI



                      >



                      > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is



                      >



                      > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"



                      >



                      > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th



                      >



                      > Plane!



                      >



                      > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"



                      >



                      > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,



                      >



                      > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect



                      >



                      > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "
                      advanced"



                      >



                      > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"



                      >



                      > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



                      >



                      > Etznab wrote:



                      >



                      > I would like to know the difference between



                      >



                      > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,



                      >



                      > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something



                      >



                      > about the inner=2

                      0form of the Living Eck Master.



                      >



                      > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called



                      >



                      > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0



                      > D



                      >



                      > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



                      >



                      > This is something I've been contemplating



                      >



                      > for some time: What is different with the two



                      >



                      > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me



                      >



                      > about this subject).



                      >



                      > There's another thing on this subject, and it



                      >



                      > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,



                      >



                      > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided



                      >



                      > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the




                      >



                      > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,



                      >



                      > any of the other lower world bodies where there



                      >



                      > are many different ones - including the physical



                      >



                      > body.



                      >



                      > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma



                      >



                      > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is



                      >



                      > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul



                      >



                      > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.



                      >



                      > Something like another dimension.



                      >



                      > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?



                      >



                      > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of



                      >



                      > the L

                      iving Eck Master become so important?



                      >



                      > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled



                      >



                      > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that



                      >



                      > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My



                      >



                      > understanding is that the astral body is limited



                      >



                      > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup



                      >



                      > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one=2
                      0would have



                      >



                      > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



                      >



                      > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book



                      >



                      > it reads like that was his first vis



                      > it. However, in



                      >



                      > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The



                      >



                      > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice



                      >



                      > already!



                      >



                      > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                      >



                      > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the



                      >



                      > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.



                      >



                      > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the



                      >



                      > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and



                      >



                      > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after



                      >



                      > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul



                      >



                      > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)



                      >



                      > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all



                      >



                      > the way to the nameless

                      plane. Anami. & not



                      >



                      > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem



                      >



                      &
                      gt; quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-



                      >



                      > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's



                      >



                      > Fang account and the year 1957.



                      >



                      > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                      >



                      > I wonder, were those two different books, the



                      >



                      > two different manuscripts, about the same basic



                      >



                      > experience?



                      >



                      > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an



                      >



                      > online version of The Path of the Masters? by



                      >



                      > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter



                      >



                      > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the



                      >



                      > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The



                      >



                      > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257



                      >



                      > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami



                      >



                      > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:



                      >



                      > A Talk With Rami Nuri.



                      >



                      > I've



                      > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early



                      >



                      > books and read from the beginning, looking at



                      >


                      0D
                      > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over



                      >



                      > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at



                      >



                      > this point in time. I'm discovering things that



                      >



                      > had20escaped me up until now.



                      >



                      > Etznab



                      >



                      > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                      >



                      > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



                      >



                      > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



                      >



                      > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



                      >



                      > or contemplate upon his Physical image via



                      >



                      > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



                      >



                      > of an Astral image. How is this the same as



                      >



                      > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



                      >



                      > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



                      >



                      > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



                      >



                      > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



                      >



                      > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



                      >



                      > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



                      >



                      > of the Lower Planes=2
                      0just as all other religions



                      >



                      > teach and other "believers" experience!



                      >



                      > Prometheus



                      >



                      > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



                      >



                      > Hello All,



                      >



                      > It was bad enough that HK sold



                      >



                      > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



                      >



                      > portrait. Now he's selling the "True



                      >



                      > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



                      > 0D



                      >



                      > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                      =0

                      A

                      >



                      > portrait accurately? No, not quite!



                      >



                      > The truth has (once again) been



                      >



                      > embellished and distorted! Klemp,



                      >



                      > no doubt, likes this rendition because



                      >



                      > it makes him appear younger. Thus,



                      >



                      > this drawing looks more "sketch"



                      >



                      > like than portrait like!



                      >



                      > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



                      >



                      > a more modern, shaved look, and



                      >



                      > does not appear as thin as it really



                      >



                      > is (t
                      he inside portion of his ear is



                      >



                      > different too).



                      >



                      > When looking at the front cover photo,



                      >



                      > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



                      >



                      > World of ECKankar" we can see that



                      >



                      > Klemp parts his hair on the side and



                      >



                      > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



                      >



                      > makes Klemp look younger.



                      >



                      > The question ECKists should be asking is,



                      >



                      > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



                      >



                      > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



                      >



                      > followers all want to "imagine" that they look



                      >



                      > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



                      >



                      > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



                      >



                      > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0

                      D



                      >



                      > I think it's funny that Klemp names



                      >



                      > this new portrait "True Friend." Would



                      >



                      > a "true friend" say such nasty



                      > and mean



                      >



                      > things to you? These RESAs and ot
                      her



                      >



                      > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



                      >



                      > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



                      >



                      > now they see that there are strings



                      >



                      > attached and that it's a one-way friend-



                      >



                      > ship.



                      >



                      > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



                      >



                      > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



                      >



                      > himself, or give it to you... free of



                      >



                      > charge? Hmmmmmm.



                      >



                      > On another note, I saw how Klemp can



                      >



                      > make even more money from his image.



                      >



                      > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



                      >



                      > as though he has a big hole running



                      >



                      > through his head. So, maybe HK could



                      >



                      > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



                      >



                      > The chain would go through his ears!



                      >



                      > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



                      >



                      > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK



                      >



                      > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



                      >


                      =0
                      A
                      > he does with portraits, books, etc.



                      >



                      > Prometheus



                      >



                      &

                      gt;



                      > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                      .yahoo.com



                      >



                      >



                      > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                      .yahoo.com



                      >



                      Send instant messages to your online friends

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