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Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

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  • Jason Mc Dermott
    Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
      Dear Etznab

      I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                 The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                  Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
      The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

      Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they're quite good.

      Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
      As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

       Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

      I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

      Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

      I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

      Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
      http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html

      hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

      Jay




      From: "etznab@..." <etznab@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

      Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

      Prometheus,

      No. I haven't.

      The reference to number seven interests me.
      Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
      mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
      Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
      me the impression of eight basic planes, where
      the eighth (and highest) was considered above
      them all. Like, something on another level, so
      to speak. Examples:

      p. 156

      "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
      of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
      of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
      all!"

      [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
      during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
      not sure. That quote is on the second page
      of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
      Question: Why does he mention seven?]

      For some reason, I'm under the impression
      that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
      a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
      8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
      the same book.

      p. 195

      "When I want to show the world my highest
      grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
      This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
      sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
      is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
      final for he represents my power in the seven
      lower worlds."

      [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
      I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

      Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
      my earlier post. The being supposed to have
      spoken those words was either Anami, or the
      SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
      have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
      story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
      Consider the last seven words in that quote:

      ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

      I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
      Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
      (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
      (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
      Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
      I suspect the earlier models had around eight
      planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
      book would mention this many and then the
      1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
      a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
      haste, and will have to go back & check the
      names of the planes for accuracy.)

      In the next chapter following that one (THE
      SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
      go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
      of the chapter:

      p. 197

      Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
      you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
      into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
      of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
      you will then know for yourself. [....]

      p. 199

      "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
      speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
      among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
      serve to take the message of the divine to all my
      creations throughout the seven spheres."

      Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
      by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
      once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
      other time mentions seven spheres.

      It was the context from those chapters that gave me
      the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
      etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
      place "above" them and making a total of eight.

      I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
      Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
      be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
      during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
      a total of only seven planets.

      As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
      starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
      notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
      when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
      and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
      1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
      take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
      the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
      (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
      materials. Like, how much of it was material that
      was already known to history? How much was in
      the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
      How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
      How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
      how much of the material had actually come direct
      from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
      (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

      This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
      so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
      history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
      other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
      Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
      "Body"

      Hello Etznab,

      You make some good points and have

      brought up more information to point

      out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

      I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

      and D.W.T.M. later.

      It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

      Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

      Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

      Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

      their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

      "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

      overlook this point. And, look at how

      many years Klemp has instructed EKists

      to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

      singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

      is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
      D

      Chakra is still being used after 28 years

      under Klemp's rule(s)!

      BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

      actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

      is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

      Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

      become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

      or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

      being that same Over-Soul which, then,

      becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

      by-pass the hierarchy and can become

      "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

      on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

      you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

      Prometheus

      p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

      LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

      where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

      resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

      Plane!

      Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

      thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

      Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

      with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

      Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

      [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

      Etznab wrote:

      I would like to know the difference between

      Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

      the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

      about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

      The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

      a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
      D

      Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

      This is something I've been contemplating

      for some time: What is different with the two

      types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

      about this subject).

      There's another thing on this subject, and it

      has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

      I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

      body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

      Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

      any of the other lower world bodies where there

      are many different ones - including the physical

      body.

      So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

      Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

      only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

      Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

      Something like another dimension.

      Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

      and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

      the Living Eck Master become so important?

      Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

      to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

      the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

      understanding is that the astral body is limited

      to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

      transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

      to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

      Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

      it reads like that was his first vis
      it. However, in

      the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

      Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

      already!

      ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

      A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

      Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

      to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

      D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

      T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

      getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

      Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

      Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

      the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

      only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

      quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

      Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

      Fang account and the year 1957.

      ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

      I wonder, were those two different books, the

      two different manuscripts, about the same basic

      experience?

      BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

      online version of The Path of the Masters? by

      Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

      entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

      Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

      Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

      on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

      Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

      A Talk With Rami Nuri.

      I've
      decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

      books and read from the beginning, looking at

      how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

      the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

      this point in time. I'm discovering things that

      had escaped me up until now.

      Etznab

      HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

      Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

      is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

      chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

      or contemplate upon his Physical image via

      his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

      of an Astral image. How is this the same as

      meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

      Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

      with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

      than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

      Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

      (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

      of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

      teach and other "believers" experience!

      Prometheus

      Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

      Hello All,

      It was bad enough that HK sold

      his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

      portrait. Now he's selling the "True

      Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
      0D

      But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

      portrait accurately? No, not quite!

      The truth has (once again) been

      embellished and distorted! Klemp,

      no doubt, likes this rendition because

      it makes him appear younger. Thus,

      this drawing looks more "sketch"

      like than portrait like!

      What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

      a more modern, shaved look, and

      does not appear as thin as it really

      is (the inside portion of his ear is

      different too).

      When looking at the front cover photo,

      of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

      World of ECKankar" we can see that

      Klemp parts his hair on the side and

      does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

      makes Klemp look younger.

      The question ECKists should be asking is,

      Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

      are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

      followers all want to "imagine" that they look

      "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

      Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

      rather than having an Astral Plane image!

      I think it's funny that Klemp names

      this new portrait "True Friend." Would

      a "true friend" say such nasty
      and mean

      things to you? These RESAs and other

      H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

      Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

      now they see that there are strings

      attached and that it's a one-way friend-

      ship.

      BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

      you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

      himself, or give it to you... free of

      charge? Hmmmmmm.

      On another note, I saw how Klemp can

      make even more money from his image.

      HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

      as though he has a big hole running

      through his head. So, maybe HK could

      have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

      The chain would go through his ears!

      He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

      $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

      will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

      he does with portraits, books, etc.

      Prometheus


      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
    • etznab@aol.com
      [....] So one year after getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for) Dialogues With The Master. In it he
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
        "[....] So one year after getting initiated by
        Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul Twitchell writes
        a book (the manuscript for) Dialogues With
        The Master. In it he travels all the way to the
        nameless plane. Anami. & not only once,
        but twice! Something doesn't seem quite
        right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
        Realization is usually identified with The
        Tiger's Fang account and the year 1957."

        I think that needs a little clarification.

        In Dialogues With The Master Paul T.
        writes in the Introduction section:

        [....] He concluded his series of talks that
        year by taking me on the spiritual journey
        recorded in my book "The Tiger's Fang."

        Using the date for writing the Dialogues
        With The Master manuscript to be 1956,
        it would seem that the "spiritual journey"
        recorded in The Tiger's Fang book came
        in late 1956. Not 1957.

        Apparently, I was not the only person
        who mentioned 1957. Example:

        A natural question one might ask about the
        ECK Initiations is this: "If Paul Twitchell had
        God Realization in 1957, why did the ECK
        Master Shamus-i-Tabriz suggest that Paul
        was not omniscient?" Isn't a God-Realized
        person supposed to know all things?

        [....]

        Paul did have the experience of God Con-
        sciousness in 1957, but it took eight full
        years before he was ready for the mantle
        of the Mahanta in 1965. Even then he did
        not know all things, as the spiritually naive
        would like to think20he did.

        [....]

        [Based on: Soul Travelers Of The Far Country,
        by Harold Klemp, copyright 1987, pp. 140-141]

        Here is another example. One that gives both
        1956 and 1957.

        "In late 1956 or early 1957 Paul had the experience
        that is recorded in The Tiger's Fang. If he touched the
        face of God in 1956, some people may wonder why it
        took him until 1965 to become the Mahanta, the
        Living ECK Master. [....]"

        [Based on: Article (Touching the Face of God) @
        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail

        It's only a trivial point, I know, however I think it's
        important to establish the date for this event.

        BTW, there is a chapter in Dialogues With The
        Master entitled The Face of God. It is Paul's first
        trip to the "Anami Plane" that I mentioned in that
        earlier post (the second trip was in the chapter
        The Sugmad Speaks. It follows The Face of God
        chapter).

        Interesting what a little time & research can do.
        Now I think I see the reason for mentioning 1956
        and not 1957 for Paul Twitchell's God-Realization
        experience.

        All of this brings up a question, though. Did Paul
        write about that experience twice? Like in both the
        manuscripts? 1956: Dialogues With The Master &
        1957: The Tiger's Fang?

        The journey to "Sugmad" appears in The Tiger's
        Fang chapter entitled: The Spiritual Malignancy.
        In it, the being reportedly speaking to Paul gives
        four principles. In
        Dialogues With The Master the
        being reportedly speaking - in The Face of God
        chapter - gives three precepts.

        So which is the accurate record about Paul T.'s
        so-called God-Realization experience in which he
        reportedly meets the SUGMAD? Or, God?

        After just reading Dialogues With The Master
        another time, my guess would be that the first
        mention was in the Dialogues With The Master
        chapter entitled The Face of God.

        BTW, I found that one Eckankar quote more
        than a little curious.

        "In late 1956 or early 1957 Paul had the experience
        that is recorded in The Tiger's Fang. If he touched the
        face of God in 1956, some people may wonder why it
        took him until 1965 to become the Mahanta, the
        Living ECK Master. [....]"

        [Based on: Article (Touching the Face of God) @
        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail

        Well, apparently (I would add) the experience was
        also recorded in Dialogues With The Master.

        My references seem to suggest that D.W.T.M.
        manuscript was written before The Tiger's Fang.
        Perhaps there was one basic manuscript which
        recorded (wrote about) the experience and Paul
        (or Eckankar) later made it into two books.

        I'm planning to read The Tiger's Fang next, &
        compare it with Dialogues With The Master. It
        will take some time, but I'll get back with you
        and maybe we can discuss what actually took
        place.

        Etznab


        -----Original Message-----
        F
        rom: etznab@...
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 10:20 pm
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
        "Body"


        I would like to know the difference between
        Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
        the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
        about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

        The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
        a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
        Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

        This is something I've been contemplating
        for some time: What is different with the two
        types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
        about this subject).

        There's another thing on this subject, and it
        has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
        I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
        body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
        Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
        any of the other lower world bodies where there
        are many different ones - including the physical
        body.

        So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
        Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
        only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
        Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
        Something like another dimension.

        Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
        and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
        the Living Eck Master become so important?
        Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
        to the Anami Lok wit
        h Rebazar Tarzs was that
        the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
        understanding is that the astral body is limited
        to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
        transc
        ends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
        to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

        Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
        it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
        the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
        Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
        already!

        ?????????????????????????????????????

        A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
        Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
        to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
        D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
        T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
        getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
        Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
        Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
        the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
        only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
        quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
        Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
        Fang account and the year 1957.

        ?????????????????????????????????????

        I wonder, were those two different books, the
        two different manuscripts, about the same basic
        experience?

        BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
        online version of The Path of the Masters? by
        Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
        entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
        Univ
        erse (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
        Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
        on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
        Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Examp
        le:
        A Talk With Rami Nuri.

        I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
        books and read from the beginning, looking at
        how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
        the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
        this point in time. I'm discovering things that
        had escaped me up until now.

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 12:29 am
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
        "Body"








        Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

        is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

        chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

        or contemplate upon his Physical image via

        his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

        of an Astral image. How is this the same as

        meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

        Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

        with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

        than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

        Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

        (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

        of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

        teach and other "believers" experience!



        Prometheus






        Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



        Hello All,

        It was bad enough that HK sold

        his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

        portrait. No
        w he's selling the "True

        Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



        But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

        portrait accurately? No, not quite!

        The truth has (once again) been

        embellished and distorted! Klemp,

        no doubt, likes this rendition because

        it makes him appear younger. Thus,

        this drawing looks more "sketch"

        like than portrait like!



        What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

        a more modern, shaved look, and

        does not appear as thin as it really

        is (the inside portion of his ear is

        different too).



        When looking at the front cover photo,

        of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

        World of ECKankar" we can see that

        Klemp parts his hair on the side and

        does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

        makes Klemp look younger.



        The question ECKists should be asking is,

        Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

        are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

        followers all want to "imagine" that they look

        "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

        Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

        rather than having an Astral Plane image!



        I think it's funny that Klemp names

        this new portrait "True Frien
        d." Would

        a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

        things to you? These RESAs and other

        H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

        Letter see Klemp as a True Friend
        , but

        now they see that there are strings

        attached and that it's a one-way friend-

        ship.



        BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

        you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

        himself, or give it to you... free of

        charge? Hmmmmmm.



        On another note, I saw how Klemp can

        make even more money from his image.

        HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

        as though he has a big hole running

        through his head. So, maybe HK could

        have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

        The chain would go through his ears!

        He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

        $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

        will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

        he does with portraits, books, etc.



        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
          Hello Jay,
          Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
          you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
          been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
          archives), and there are Links and Files,
          also, that show and discuss many of these
          subjects as well. However, the main focus
          of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
          this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
          positioned himself to inherit it and how
          he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
          continue the lies, myth, and the belief
          systems (fear and faith) that all religions
          use. - P.

          Jay wrote:
          Dear Etznab
          >
          I my self am doing similar in studying back
          over the shariyat's to see how much of these
          two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
          me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
          But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
          vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
          at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
          he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
          Then of course there are the number of books
          written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
          on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
          the story on this enigma of a man:
          >
          The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
          of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
          >
          P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
          not actually contain "the whole truth"
          and that much is just a rehash of his
          previous opinions and speculations]
          >
          The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
          >
          P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
          denounced Klemp and his own book about
          his "Mahanta" experiences.]
          >
          Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
          >
          P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
          spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
          who took his place]
          >
          The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
          though the above books have helped move
          on from some of his theories and material,
          but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
          He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
          book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
          just type his name in and you'll find it.
          >
          P: *[David started the ball rolling]
          >
          Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
          to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
          of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
          he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
          to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
          on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
          the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
          set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
          with others..they're quite good.
          >
          Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
          of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
          its on you tube the link is
          >
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
          >
          As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
          girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
          apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
          the website is
          >
          http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html
          >
          Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
          of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
          when kicked out of Eck.
          >
          P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
          Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
          >
          Also as you may know there are a few other off
          shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
          actually can't remember him.. should have book
          marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
          he has his own line of past masters. Another
          guy who will mail you intro material is Master
          Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
          >
          I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
          haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
          I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
          hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
          far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
          perspective of where I may be going next. What
          really makes his insights for us all stand out are
          two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
          in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
          master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
          all the time his students said he was with them
          on the inner planes and how they would praise
          him for his place in their spiritual development,
          he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
          nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
          students on the inner planes...I mean come on
          how profound is this.
          >
          Though we are on the intellectual level only with
          all this talk..it is basic and important though.
          I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
          I've practised the HU chant all this time and
          studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
          of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
          i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
          or ignored the possible science of the brain that
          maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
          to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd
          initiate always told it was my choice, though
          I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
          be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
          >
          >
          P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
          under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
          professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
          you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
          (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
          do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
          >
          >
          I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
          and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
          remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
          >
          Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
          of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
          >
          http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html
          >
          hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
          >
          Jay


          >
          > From: etznab
          >
          > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
          >
          > Prometheus,
          >
          > No. I haven't.
          >
          > The reference to number seven interests me.
          > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
          > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
          > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
          > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
          > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
          > them all. Like, something on another level, so
          > to speak. Examples:
          >
          > p. 156
          >
          > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
          > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
          > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
          > all!"
          >
          > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
          > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
          > not sure. That quote is on the second page
          > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
          > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
          >
          > For some reason, I'm under the impression
          > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
          > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
          > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
          > the same book.
          >
          > p. 195
          >
          > "When I want to show the world my highest
          > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
          > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
          > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
          > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
          > final for he represents my power in the seven
          > lower worlds."
          >
          > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
          > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
          >
          > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
          > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
          > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
          > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
          > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
          > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
          > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
          >
          > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
          >
          > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
          > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
          > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
          > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
          > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
          > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
          > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
          > book would mention this many and then the
          > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
          > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
          > haste, and will have to go back & check the
          > names of the planes for accuracy.)
          >
          > In the next chapter following that one (THE
          > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
          > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
          > of the chapter:
          >
          > p. 197
          >
          > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
          > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
          > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
          > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
          > you will then know for yourself. [....]
          >
          > p. 199
          >
          > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
          > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
          > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
          > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
          > creations throughout the seven spheres."
          >
          > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
          > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
          > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
          > other time mentions seven spheres.
          >
          > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
          > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
          > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
          > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
          >
          > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
          > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
          > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
          > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
          > a total of only seven planets.
          >
          > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
          > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
          > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
          > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
          > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
          > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
          > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
          > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
          > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
          > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
          > was already known to history? How much was in
          > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
          > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
          > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
          > how much of the material had actually come direct
          > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
          > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
          >
          > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
          > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
          > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
          > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
          >
          > Etznab
          >
          >
          > Hello Etznab,
          >
          > You make some good points and have
          >
          > brought up more information to point
          >
          > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
          >
          > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
          >
          > and D.W.T.M. later.
          >
          >
          > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
          >
          > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
          >
          > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
          >
          > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
          >
          > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
          >
          > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
          >
          > overlook this point. And, look at how
          >
          > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
          >
          > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
          >
          > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
          >
          > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
          >
          > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
          >
          > under Klemp's rule(s)!
          >
          >
          > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
          >
          > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
          >
          > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
          >
          > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
          >
          > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
          >
          > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
          >
          > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
          >
          > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
          >
          > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
          >
          > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
          >
          > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
          >
          > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
          >
          > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
          >
          > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
          >
          > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
          >
          > Plane!
          >
          > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
          >
          > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
          >
          > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
          >
          > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
          >
          > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
          >
          > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
          >
        • Jason Mc Dermott
          Hi Prometheus Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y know somewhere to
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
            Hi Prometheus

            Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y'know somewhere to start..interesting line of inquiry though. Also thanks for the detail on becoming a 5th initiate I never really looked into it though. The sites great with all the files you've put up..great help.

            Thanks again

            Jay




            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 5:02:45
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

            Hello Jay,
            Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
            you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
            been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
            archives), and there are Links and Files,
            also, that show and discuss many of these
            subjects as well. However, the main focus
            of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
            this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
            positioned himself to inherit it and how
            he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
            continue the lies, myth, and the belief
            systems (fear and faith) that all religions
            use. - P.

            Jay wrote:
            Dear Etznab

            >
            I my self am doing similar in studying back
            over the shariyat's to see how much of these
            two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
            me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
            But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
            vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
            at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
            he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
            Then of course there are the number of books
            written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
            on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
            the story on this enigma of a man:
            >
            The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
            of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
            >
            P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
            not actually contain "the whole truth"
            and that much is just a rehash of his
            previous opinions and speculations]
            >
            The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
            >
            P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
            denounced Klemp and his own book about
            his "Mahanta" experiences. ]
            >
            Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
            >
            P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
            spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
            who took his place]
            >
            The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
            though the above books have helped move
            on from some of his theories and material,
            but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
            He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
            book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
            just type his name in and you'll find it.
            >
            P: *[David started the ball rolling]
            >
            Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
            to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
            of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
            he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
            to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
            on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
            the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
            set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
            with others..they' re quite good.
            >
            Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
            of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
            its on you tube the link is
            >
            http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego& feature=related
            >
            As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
            girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
            apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
            the website is
            >
            http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html
            >
            Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
            of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
            when kicked out of Eck.
            >
            P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
            Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
            >
            Also as you may know there are a few other off
            shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
            actually can't remember him.. should have book
            marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
            he has his own line of past masters. Another
            guy who will mail you intro material is Master
            Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
            >
            I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
            haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
            I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
            hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
            far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
            perspective of where I may be going next. What
            really makes his insights for us all stand out are
            two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
            in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
            master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
            all the time his students said he was with them
            on the inner planes and how they would praise
            him for his place in their spiritual development,
            he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
            nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
            students on the inner planes...I mean come on
            how profound is this.
            >
            Though we are on the intellectual level only with
            all this talk..it is basic and important though.
            I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
            I've practised the HU chant all this time and
            studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
            of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
            i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
            or ignored the possible science of the brain that
            maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
            to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd
            initiate always told it was my choice, though
            I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
            be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
            >
            >
            P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
            under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
            professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
            you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
            (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
            do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
            >
            >
            I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
            and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
            remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
            >
            Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
            of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
            >
            http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html
            >
            hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
            >
            Jay


            >
            > From: etznab
            >
            > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
            >
            > Prometheus,
            >
            > No. I haven't.
            >
            > The reference to number seven interests me.
            > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
            > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
            > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
            > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
            > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
            > them all. Like, something on another level, so
            > to speak. Examples:
            >
            > p. 156
            >
            > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
            > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
            > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
            > all!"
            >
            > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
            > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
            > not sure. That quote is on the second page
            > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
            > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
            >
            > For some reason, I'm under the impression
            > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
            > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
            > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
            > the same book.
            >
            > p. 195
            >
            > "When I want to show the world my highest
            > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
            > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
            > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
            > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
            > final for he represents my power in the seven
            > lower worlds."
            >
            > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
            > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
            >
            > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
            > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
            > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
            > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
            > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
            > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
            > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
            >
            > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
            >
            > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
            > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
            > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
            > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
            > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
            > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
            > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
            > book would mention this many and then the
            > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
            > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
            > haste, and will have to go back & check the
            > names of the planes for accuracy.)
            >
            > In the next chapter following that one (THE
            > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
            > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
            > of the chapter:
            >
            > p. 197
            >
            > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
            > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
            > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
            > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
            > you will then know for yourself. [....]
            >
            > p. 199
            >
            > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
            > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
            > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
            > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
            > creations throughout the seven spheres."
            >
            > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
            > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
            > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
            > other time mentions seven spheres.
            >
            > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
            > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
            > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
            > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
            >
            > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
            > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
            > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
            > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
            > a total of only seven planets.
            >
            > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
            > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
            > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
            > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
            > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
            > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
            > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
            > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
            > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
            > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
            > was already known to history? How much was in
            > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
            > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
            > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
            > how much of the material had actually come direct
            > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
            > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
            >
            > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
            > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
            > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
            > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
            >
            > Etznab
            >
            >
            > Hello Etznab,
            >
            > You make some good points and have
            >
            > brought up more information to point
            >
            > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
            >
            > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
            >
            > and D.W.T.M. later.
            >
            >
            > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
            >
            > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
            >
            > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
            >
            > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
            >
            > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
            >
            > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
            >
            > overlook this point. And, look at how
            >
            > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
            >
            > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
            >
            > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
            >
            > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
            >
            > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
            >
            > under Klemp's rule(s)!
            >
            >
            > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
            >
            > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
            >
            > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
            >
            > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
            >
            > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
            >
            > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
            >
            > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
            >
            > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
            >
            > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
            >
            > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
            >
            > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
            >
            > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
            >
            > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
            >
            > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
            >
            > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
            >
            > Plane!
            >
            > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
            >
            > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
            >
            > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
            >
            > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
            >
            > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
            >
            > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
            >


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          • Jason Mc Dermott
            Dear Etznab Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I ve just come
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
              Dear Etznab

               Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson features it as part of his hypothesis as us having multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher Consciousness Society website. You'll find them by clicking on the classes button and then the audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to them in order as not to get confused of what's being discussed and explained by Johnson,the particular section of Over soul seven and Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

              g'luk

              Jay


              From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 15:03:04
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

              Dear Etznab

              I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                         The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                          Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
              The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

              Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they' re quite good.

              Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
              As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

               Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

              I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

              Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

              I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

              Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
              http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html

              hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

              Jay




              From: "etznab@aol. com" <etznab@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
              Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

              Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

              Prometheus,

              No. I haven't.

              The reference to number seven interests me.
              Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
              mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
              Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
              me the impression of eight basic planes, where
              the eighth (and highest) was considered above
              them all. Like, something on another level, so
              to speak. Examples:

              p. 156

              "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
              of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
              of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
              all!"

              [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
              during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
              not sure. That quote is on the second page
              of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
              Question: Why does he mention seven?]

              For some reason, I'm under the impression
              that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
              a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
              8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
              the same book.

              p. 195

              "When I want to show the world my highest
              grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
              This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
              sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
              is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
              final for he represents my power in the seven
              lower worlds."

              [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
              I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

              Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
              my earlier post. The being supposed to have
              spoken those words was either Anami, or the
              SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
              have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
              story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
              Consider the last seven words in that quote:

              ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

              I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
              Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
              (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
              (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
              Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
              I suspect the earlier models had around eight
              planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
              book would mention this many and then the
              1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
              a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
              haste, and will have to go back & check the
              names of the planes for accuracy.)

              In the next chapter following that one (THE
              SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
              go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
              of the chapter:

              p. 197

              Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
              you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
              into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
              of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
              you will then know for yourself. [....]

              p. 199

              "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
              speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
              among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
              serve to take the message of the divine to all my
              creations throughout the seven spheres."

              Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
              by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
              once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
              other time mentions seven spheres.

              It was the context from those chapters that gave me
              the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
              etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
              place "above" them and making a total of eight.

              I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
              Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
              be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
              during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
              a total of only seven planets.

              As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
              starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
              notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
              when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
              and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
              1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
              take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
              the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
              (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
              materials. Like, how much of it was material that
              was already known to history? How much was in
              the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
              How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
              How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
              how much of the material had actually come direct
              from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
              (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

              This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
              so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
              history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
              other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
              Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
              "Body"

              Hello Etznab,

              You make some good points and have

              brought up more information to point

              out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

              I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

              and D.W.T.M. later.

              It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

              Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

              Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

              Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

              their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

              "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

              overlook this point. And, look at how

              many years Klemp has instructed EKists

              to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

              singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

              is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
              D

              Chakra is still being used after 28 years

              under Klemp's rule(s)!

              BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

              actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

              is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

              Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

              become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

              or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

              being that same Over-Soul which, then,

              becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

              by-pass the hierarchy and can become

              "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

              on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

              you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

              Prometheus

              p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

              LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

              where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

              resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

              Plane!

              Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

              thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

              Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

              with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

              Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

              [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

              Etznab wrote:

              I would like to know the difference between

              Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

              the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

              about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

              The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

              a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
              D

              Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

              This is something I've been contemplating

              for some time: What is different with the two

              types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

              about this subject).

              There's another thing on this subject, and it

              has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

              I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

              body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

              Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

              any of the other lower world bodies where there

              are many different ones - including the physical

              body.

              So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

              Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

              only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

              Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

              Something like another dimension.

              Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

              and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

              the Living Eck Master become so important?

              Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

              to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

              the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

              understanding is that the astral body is limited

              to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

              transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

              to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

              Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

              it reads like that was his first vis
              it. However, in

              the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

              Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

              already!

              ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

              A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

              Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

              to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

              D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

              T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

              getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

              Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

              Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

              the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

              only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

              quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

              Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

              Fang account and the year 1957.

              ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

              I wonder, were those two different books, the

              two different manuscripts, about the same basic

              experience?

              BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

              online version of The Path of the Masters? by

              Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

              entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

              Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

              Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

              on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

              Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

              A Talk With Rami Nuri.

              I've
              decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

              books and read from the beginning, looking at

              how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

              the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

              this point in time. I'm discovering things that

              had escaped me up until now.

              Etznab

              HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

              Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

              is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

              chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

              or contemplate upon his Physical image via

              his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

              of an Astral image. How is this the same as

              meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

              Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

              with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

              than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

              Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

              (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

              of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

              teach and other "believers" experience!

              Prometheus

              Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

              Hello All,

              It was bad enough that HK sold

              his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

              portrait. Now he's selling the "True

              Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
              0D

              But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

              portrait accurately? No, not quite!

              The truth has (once again) been

              embellished and distorted! Klemp,

              no doubt, likes this rendition because

              it makes him appear younger. Thus,

              this drawing looks more "sketch"

              like than portrait like!

              What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

              a more modern, shaved look, and

              does not appear as thin as it really

              is (the inside portion of his ear is

              different too).

              When looking at the front cover photo,

              of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

              World of ECKankar" we can see that

              Klemp parts his hair on the side and

              does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

              makes Klemp look younger.

              The question ECKists should be asking is,

              Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

              are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

              followers all want to "imagine" that they look

              "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

              Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

              rather than having an Astral Plane image!

              I think it's funny that Klemp names

              this new portrait "True Friend." Would

              a "true friend" say such nasty
              and mean

              things to you? These RESAs and other

              H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

              Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

              now they see that there are strings

              attached and that it's a one-way friend-

              ship.

              BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

              you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

              himself, or give it to you... free of

              charge? Hmmmmmm.

              On another note, I saw how Klemp can

              make even more money from his image.

              HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

              as though he has a big hole running

              through his head. So, maybe HK could

              have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

              The chain would go through his ears!

              He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

              $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

              will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

              he does with portraits, books, etc.

              Prometheus


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            • prometheus_973
              Hello Jay, Etznab, and All, Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it s fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that this is
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                this is similar to beating a dead horse
                when sorting out the truth from all the
                crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                distracted from the current, now, happenings
                under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                the hook via his distractions involving
                Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                in order to confuse the issue.

                Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                but became more and more insane over
                time. And, look at those "creative" people
                in business who have scammed thousands
                of individuals out of their life savings! They
                even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                expected from a person who paid to be
                included in "The International Who's Who
                of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                with their current views of society and how
                it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                Masters?

                BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                as well!

                As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                or any other EK Master!

                FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                happens because asking too many questions shows
                spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                within the Satsang Society.

                Prometheus

                Jay wrote:

                Dear Etznab

                Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                its a fictional piece based on the well known
                metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                by clicking on the classes button and then the
                audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                them in order as not to get confused of what's
                being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                the particular section of Over soul seven and
                Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                g'luk

                Jay

                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                >
                >

                Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                >
                Etznab,
                Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                >
                Prometheus,

                Etznab wrote:
                > No. I haven't.
                >
                > The reference to number seven interests me.
                > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                > to speak. Examples:
                >
                > p. 156
                >
                > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                > all!"
                >
                > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                >
                > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                > the same book.
                >
                > p. 195
                >
                > "When I want to show the world my highest
                > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                > final for he represents my power in the seven
                > lower worlds."
                >
                > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                >
                > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                >
                > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                >
                > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                > book would mention this many and then the
                > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                >
                > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                > of the chapter:
                >
                > p. 197
                >
                > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                >
                > p. 199
                >
                > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                >
                > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                > other time mentions seven spheres.
                >
                > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                >
                > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                > a total of only seven planets.
                >
                > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                > was already known to history? How much was in
                > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                > how much of the material had actually come direct
                > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                >
                > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                > "Body"
                >
                > Hello Etznab,
                >
                > You make some good points and have
                >
                > brought up more information to point
                >
                > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                >
                > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                >
                > and D.W.T.M. later.
                >
                > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                >
                > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                >
                > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                >
                > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                >
                > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                >
                > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                >
                > overlook this point. And, look at how
                >
                > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                >
                > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                >
                > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                >
                > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                > D
                >
                > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                >
                > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                >
                > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                >
                > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                >
                > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                >
                > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                >
                > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                >
                > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                >
                > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                >
                > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                >
                > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                >
                > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                >
                > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                >
                > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                >
                > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                >
                > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                >
                > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                >
                > Plane!
                >
                > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                >
                > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                >
                > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                >
                > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                >
                > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                >
                > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                >
                > Etznab wrote:
                >
                > I would like to know the difference between
                >
                > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                >
                > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                >
                > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                >
                > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                >
                > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                > D
                >
                > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                >
                > This is something I've been contemplating
                >
                > for some time: What is different with the two
                >
                > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                >
                > about this subject).
                >
                > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                >
                > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                >
                > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                >
                > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                >
                > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                >
                > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                >
                > are many different ones - including the physical
                >
                > body.
                >
                > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                >
                > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                >
                > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                >
                > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                >
                > Something like another dimension.
                >
                > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                >
                > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                >
                > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                >
                > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                >
                > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                >
                > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                >
                > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                >
                > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                >
                > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                >
                > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                >
                > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                >
                > it reads like that was his first vis
                > it. However, in
                >
                > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                >
                > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                >
                > already!
                >
                > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                >
                > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                >
                > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                >
                > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                >
                > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                >
                > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                >
                > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                >
                > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                >
                > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                >
                > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                >
                > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                >
                > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                >
                > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                >
                > Fang account and the year 1957.
                >
                > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                >
                > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                >
                > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                >
                > experience?
                >
                > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                >
                > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                >
                > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                >
                > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                >
                > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                >
                > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                >
                > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                >
                > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                >
                > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                >
                > I've
                > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                >
                > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                >
                > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                >
                > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                >
                > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                >
                > had escaped me up until now.
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                >
                > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                >
                > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                >
                > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                >
                > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                >
                > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                >
                > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                >
                > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                >
                > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                >
                > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                >
                > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                >
                > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                >
                > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                >
                > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                >
                > teach and other "believers" experience!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                >
                > Hello All,
                >
                > It was bad enough that HK sold
                >
                > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                >
                > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                >
                > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                > 0D
                >
                > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                >
                > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                >
                > The truth has (once again) been
                >
                > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                >
                > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                >
                > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                >
                > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                >
                > like than portrait like!
                >
                > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                >
                > a more modern, shaved look, and
                >
                > does not appear as thin as it really
                >
                > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                >
                > different too).
                >
                > When looking at the front cover photo,
                >
                > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                >
                > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                >
                > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                >
                > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                >
                > makes Klemp look younger.
                >
                > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                >
                > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                >
                > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                >
                > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                >
                > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                >
                > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                >
                > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                >
                > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                >
                > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                >
                > a "true friend" say such nasty
                > and mean
                >
                > things to you? These RESAs and other
                >
                > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                >
                > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                >
                > now they see that there are strings
                >
                > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                >
                > ship.
                >
                > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                >
                > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                >
                > himself, or give it to you... free of
                >
                > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                >
                > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                >
                > make even more money from his image.
                >
                > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                >
                > as though he has a big hole running
                >
                > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                >
                > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                >
                > The chain would go through his ears!
                >
                > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                >
                > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                >
                > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                >
                > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                >
                >
                > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                >
              • Jason Mc Dermott
                Hi Prometheus Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT s or HK s stuff being that
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                  Hi Prometheus

                  Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.

                  Jay


                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                  Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                  Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                  fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                  that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                  this is similar to beating a dead horse
                  when sorting out the truth from all the
                  crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                  distracted from the current, now, happenings
                  under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                  Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                  He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                  the hook via his distractions involving
                  Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                  avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                  PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                  the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                  in order to confuse the issue.

                  Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                  but became more and more insane over
                  time. And, look at those "creative" people
                  in business who have scammed thousands
                  of individuals out of their life savings! They
                  even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                  foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                  Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                  expected from a person who paid to be
                  included in "The International Who's Who
                  of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                  why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                  "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                  themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                  Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                  redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                  historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                  EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                  with their current views of society and how
                  it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                  are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                  Masters?

                  BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                  a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                  a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                  actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                  truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                  much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                  Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                  "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                  that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                  as well!

                  As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                  it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                  With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                  said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                  or any other EK Master!

                  FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                  This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                  "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                  the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                  the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                  about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                  to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                  looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                  happens because asking too many questions shows
                  spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                  in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                  comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                  answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                  the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                  This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                  works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                  or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                  within the Satsang Society.

                  Prometheus

                  Jay wrote:

                  Dear Etznab

                  Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                  its a fictional piece based on the well known
                  metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                  I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                  features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                  multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                  in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                  Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                  by clicking on the classes button and then the
                  audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                  them in order as not to get confused of what's
                  being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                  the particular section of Over soul seven and
                  Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                  g'luk

                  Jay

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>

                  >
                  >

                  Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                  >
                  Etznab,
                  Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                  >
                  Prometheus,

                  Etznab wrote:
                  > No. I haven't.
                  >
                  > The reference to number seven interests me.
                  > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                  > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                  > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                  > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                  > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                  > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                  > to speak. Examples:
                  >
                  > p. 156
                  >
                  > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                  > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                  > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                  > all!"
                  >
                  > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                  > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                  > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                  > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                  > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                  >
                  > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                  > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                  > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                  > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                  > the same book.
                  >
                  > p. 195
                  >
                  > "When I want to show the world my highest
                  > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                  > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                  > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                  > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                  > final for he represents my power in the seven
                  > lower worlds."
                  >
                  > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                  > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                  >
                  > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                  > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                  > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                  > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                  > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                  > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                  > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                  >
                  > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                  >
                  > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                  > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                  > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                  > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                  > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                  > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                  > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                  > book would mention this many and then the
                  > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                  > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                  > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                  > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                  >
                  > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                  > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                  > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                  > of the chapter:
                  >
                  > p. 197
                  >
                  > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                  > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                  > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                  > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                  > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                  >
                  > p. 199
                  >
                  > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                  > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                  > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                  > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                  > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                  >
                  > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                  > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                  > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                  > other time mentions seven spheres.
                  >
                  > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                  > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                  > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                  > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                  >
                  > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                  > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                  > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                  > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                  > a total of only seven planets.
                  >
                  > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                  > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                  > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                  > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                  > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                  > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                  > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                  > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                  > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                  > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                  > was already known to history? How much was in
                  > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                  > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                  > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                  > how much of the material had actually come direct
                  > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                  > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                  >
                  > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                  > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                  > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                  > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                  > "Body"
                  >
                  > Hello Etznab,
                  >
                  > You make some good points and have
                  >
                  > brought up more information to point
                  >
                  > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                  >
                  > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                  >
                  > and D.W.T.M. later.
                  >
                  > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                  >
                  > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                  >
                  > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                  >
                  > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                  >
                  > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                  >
                  > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                  >
                  > overlook this point. And, look at how
                  >
                  > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                  >
                  > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                  >
                  > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                  >
                  > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                  > D
                  >
                  > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                  >
                  > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                  >
                  > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                  >
                  > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                  >
                  > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                  >
                  > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                  >
                  > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                  >
                  > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                  >
                  > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                  >
                  > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                  >
                  > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                  >
                  > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                  >
                  > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                  >
                  > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                  >
                  > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                  >
                  > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                  >
                  > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                  >
                  > Plane!
                  >
                  > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                  >
                  > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                  >
                  > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                  >
                  > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                  >
                  > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                  >
                  > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                  >
                  > Etznab wrote:
                  >
                  > I would like to know the difference between
                  >
                  > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                  >
                  > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                  >
                  > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                  >
                  > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                  >
                  > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                  > D
                  >
                  > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                  >
                  > This is something I've been contemplating
                  >
                  > for some time: What is different with the two
                  >
                  > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                  >
                  > about this subject).
                  >
                  > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                  >
                  > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                  >
                  > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                  >
                  > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                  >
                  > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                  >
                  > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                  >
                  > are many different ones - including the physical
                  >
                  > body.
                  >
                  > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                  >
                  > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                  >
                  > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                  >
                  > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                  >
                  > Something like another dimension.
                  >
                  > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                  >
                  > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                  >
                  > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                  >
                  > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                  >
                  > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                  >
                  > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                  >
                  > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                  >
                  > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                  >
                  > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                  >
                  > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                  >
                  > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                  >
                  > it reads like that was his first vis
                  > it. However, in
                  >
                  > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                  >
                  > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                  >
                  > already!
                  >
                  > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                  >
                  > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                  >
                  > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                  >
                  > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                  >
                  > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                  >
                  > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                  >
                  > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                  >
                  > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                  >
                  > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                  >
                  > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                  >
                  > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                  >
                  > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                  >
                  > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                  >
                  > Fang account and the year 1957.
                  >
                  > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                  >
                  > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                  >
                  > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                  >
                  > experience?
                  >
                  > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                  >
                  > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                  >
                  > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                  >
                  > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                  >
                  > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                  >
                  > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                  >
                  > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                  >
                  > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                  >
                  > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                  >
                  > I've
                  > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                  >
                  > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                  >
                  > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                  >
                  > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                  >
                  > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                  >
                  > had escaped me up until now.
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                  > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                  >
                  > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                  >
                  > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                  >
                  > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                  >
                  > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                  >
                  > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                  >
                  > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                  >
                  > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                  >
                  > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                  >
                  > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                  >
                  > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                  >
                  > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                  >
                  > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                  >
                  > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                  >
                  > teach and other "believers" experience!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  >
                  > It was bad enough that HK sold
                  >
                  > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                  >
                  > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                  >
                  > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                  > 0D
                  >
                  > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                  >
                  > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                  >
                  > The truth has (once again) been
                  >
                  > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                  >
                  > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                  >
                  > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                  >
                  > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                  >
                  > like than portrait like!
                  >
                  > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                  >
                  > a more modern, shaved look, and
                  >
                  > does not appear as thin as it really
                  >
                  > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                  >
                  > different too).
                  >
                  > When looking at the front cover photo,
                  >
                  > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                  >
                  > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                  >
                  > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                  >
                  > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                  >
                  > makes Klemp look younger.
                  >
                  > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                  >
                  > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                  >
                  > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                  >
                  > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                  >
                  > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                  >
                  > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                  >
                  > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                  >
                  > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                  >
                  > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                  >
                  > a "true friend" say such nasty
                  > and mean
                  >
                  > things to you? These RESAs and other
                  >
                  > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                  >
                  > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                  >
                  > now they see that there are strings
                  >
                  > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                  >
                  > ship.
                  >
                  > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                  >
                  > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                  >
                  > himself, or give it to you... free of
                  >
                  > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                  >
                  > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                  >
                  > make even more money from his image.
                  >
                  > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                  >
                  > as though he has a big hole running
                  >
                  > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                  >
                  > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                  >
                  > The chain would go through his ears!
                  >
                  > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                  >
                  > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                  >
                  > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                  >
                  > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                  >


                  Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                • noneckster
                  RESPONDING TO THE THREAD: I think it s worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                    RESPONDING TO THE THREAD:

                    I think it's worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very core. To reread eck books hoping to get some wisdom is foolish imo. It's like drinking Koolaide that tastes like a sugary drink, but may be tainted with poison. : ) Current eckists are just willfully ignorant. There really isn't much of an excuse for their behavior, at this point. If Iranians can communicate and find out information via the internet and cell phone, then access in other Democracies around the world is a click away. Those practicing eckist of today are simply CHOOSING to not know all the facts.

                    Before the internet I could understand how it was easier to get duped, conned. The past is the past, for sure, but to not know the past, of course, is to increase the likelihood of repeating it. The study of bad cultic and religious practices is a very important activity IMO.

                    Non eckster ; )

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Prometheus
                    >
                    > Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.
                    >
                    > Jay
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                    > Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                    > fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                    > that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                    > this is similar to beating a dead horse
                    > when sorting out the truth from all the
                    > crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                    > distracted from the current, now, happenings
                    > under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.
                    >
                    > Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                    > He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                    > the hook via his distractions involving
                    > Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                    > avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                    > PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                    > the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                    > in order to confuse the issue.
                    >
                    > Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                    > but became more and more insane over
                    > time. And, look at those "creative" people
                    > in business who have scammed thousands
                    > of individuals out of their life savings! They
                    > even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                    > foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                    > Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                    > expected from a person who paid to be
                    > included in "The International Who's Who
                    > of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                    > why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                    > "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                    > themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                    > Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                    > redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                    > historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                    > EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                    > with their current views of society and how
                    > it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                    > are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                    > Masters?
                    >
                    > BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                    > a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                    > a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                    > actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                    > truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                    > much closer to Fiction than to "truth."
                    >
                    > Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                    > "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                    > that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                    > as well!
                    >
                    > As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                    > it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                    > With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                    > said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                    > or any other EK Master!
                    >
                    > FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                    > This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                    > "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                    > the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                    > the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                    > about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                    > to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                    > looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                    > happens because asking too many questions shows
                    > spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                    > in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                    > comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                    > answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                    > the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                    > This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                    > works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                    > or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                    > within the Satsang Society.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > Jay wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Etznab
                    >
                    > Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                    > its a fictional piece based on the well known
                    > metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                    > I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                    > features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                    > multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                    > in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                    > Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                    > by clicking on the classes button and then the
                    > audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                    > them in order as not to get confused of what's
                    > being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                    > the particular section of Over soul seven and
                    > Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.
                    >
                    > g'luk
                    >
                    > Jay
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                    > > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                    > >
                    > Etznab,
                    > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                    > >
                    > Prometheus,
                    >
                    > Etznab wrote:
                    > > No. I haven't.
                    > >
                    > > The reference to number seven interests me.
                    > > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                    > > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                    > > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                    > > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                    > > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                    > > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                    > > to speak. Examples:
                    > >
                    > > p. 156
                    > >
                    > > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                    > > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                    > > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                    > > all!"
                    > >
                    > > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                    > > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                    > > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                    > > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                    > > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                    > >
                    > > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                    > > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                    > > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                    > > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                    > > the same book.
                    > >
                    > > p. 195
                    > >
                    > > "When I want to show the world my highest
                    > > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                    > > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                    > > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                    > > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                    > > final for he represents my power in the seven
                    > > lower worlds."
                    > >
                    > > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                    > > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                    > >
                    > > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                    > > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                    > > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                    > > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                    > > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                    > > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                    > > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                    > >
                    > > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                    > >
                    > > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                    > > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                    > > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                    > > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                    > > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                    > > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                    > > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                    > > book would mention this many and then the
                    > > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                    > > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                    > > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                    > > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                    > >
                    > > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                    > > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                    > > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                    > > of the chapter:
                    > >
                    > > p. 197
                    > >
                    > > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                    > > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                    > > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                    > > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                    > > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                    > >
                    > > p. 199
                    > >
                    > > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                    > > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                    > > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                    > > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                    > > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                    > >
                    > > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                    > > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                    > > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                    > > other time mentions seven spheres.
                    > >
                    > > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                    > > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                    > > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                    > > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                    > >
                    > > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                    > > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                    > > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                    > > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                    > > a total of only seven planets.
                    > >
                    > > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                    > > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                    > > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                    > > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                    > > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                    > > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                    > > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                    > > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                    > > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                    > > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                    > > was already known to history? How much was in
                    > > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                    > > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                    > > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                    > > how much of the material had actually come direct
                    > > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                    > > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                    > >
                    > > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                    > > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                    > > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                    > > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                    > >
                    > > Etznab
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                    > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                    > > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                    > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                    > > "Body"
                    > >
                    > > Hello Etznab,
                    > >
                    > > You make some good points and have
                    > >
                    > > brought up more information to point
                    > >
                    > > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                    > >
                    > > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                    > >
                    > > and D.W.T.M. later.
                    > >
                    > > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                    > >
                    > > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                    > >
                    > > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                    > >
                    > > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                    > >
                    > > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                    > >
                    > > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                    > >
                    > > overlook this point. And, look at how
                    > >
                    > > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                    > >
                    > > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                    > >
                    > > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                    > >
                    > > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                    > > D
                    > >
                    > > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                    > >
                    > > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                    > >
                    > > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                    > >
                    > > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                    > >
                    > > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                    > >
                    > > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                    > >
                    > > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                    > >
                    > > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                    > >
                    > > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                    > >
                    > > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                    > >
                    > > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                    > >
                    > > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                    > >
                    > > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                    > >
                    > > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                    > >
                    > > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                    > >
                    > > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                    > >
                    > > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                    > >
                    > > Plane!
                    > >
                    > > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                    > >
                    > > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                    > >
                    > > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                    > >
                    > > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                    > >
                    > > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                    > >
                    > > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                    > >
                    > > Etznab wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I would like to know the difference between
                    > >
                    > > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                    > >
                    > > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                    > >
                    > > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                    > >
                    > > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                    > >
                    > > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                    > > D
                    > >
                    > > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                    > >
                    > > This is something I've been contemplating
                    > >
                    > > for some time: What is different with the two
                    > >
                    > > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                    > >
                    > > about this subject).
                    > >
                    > > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                    > >
                    > > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                    > >
                    > > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                    > >
                    > > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                    > >
                    > > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                    > >
                    > > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                    > >
                    > > are many different ones - including the physical
                    > >
                    > > body.
                    > >
                    > > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                    > >
                    > > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                    > >
                    > > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                    > >
                    > > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                    > >
                    > > Something like another dimension.
                    > >
                    > > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                    > >
                    > > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                    > >
                    > > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                    > >
                    > > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                    > >
                    > > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                    > >
                    > > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                    > >
                    > > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                    > >
                    > > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                    > >
                    > > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                    > >
                    > > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                    > >
                    > > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                    > >
                    > > it reads like that was his first vis
                    > > it. However, in
                    > >
                    > > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                    > >
                    > > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                    > >
                    > > already!
                    > >
                    > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                    > >
                    > > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                    > >
                    > > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                    > >
                    > > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                    > >
                    > > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                    > >
                    > > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                    > >
                    > > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                    > >
                    > > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                    > >
                    > > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                    > >
                    > > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                    > >
                    > > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                    > >
                    > > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                    > >
                    > > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                    > >
                    > > Fang account and the year 1957.
                    > >
                    > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                    > >
                    > > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                    > >
                    > > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                    > >
                    > > experience?
                    > >
                    > > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                    > >
                    > > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                    > >
                    > > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                    > >
                    > > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                    > >
                    > > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                    > >
                    > > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                    > >
                    > > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                    > >
                    > > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                    > >
                    > > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                    > >
                    > > I've
                    > > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                    > >
                    > > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                    > >
                    > > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                    > >
                    > > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                    > >
                    > > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                    > >
                    > > had escaped me up until now.
                    > >
                    > > Etznab
                    > >
                    > > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                    > >
                    > > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                    > >
                    > > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                    > >
                    > > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                    > >
                    > > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                    > >
                    > > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                    > >
                    > > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                    > >
                    > > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                    > >
                    > > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                    > >
                    > > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                    > >
                    > > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                    > >
                    > > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                    > >
                    > > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                    > >
                    > > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                    > >
                    > > teach and other "believers" experience!
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                    > >
                    > > Hello All,
                    > >
                    > > It was bad enough that HK sold
                    > >
                    > > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                    > >
                    > > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                    > >
                    > > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                    > > 0D
                    > >
                    > > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                    > >
                    > > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                    > >
                    > > The truth has (once again) been
                    > >
                    > > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                    > >
                    > > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                    > >
                    > > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                    > >
                    > > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                    > >
                    > > like than portrait like!
                    > >
                    > > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                    > >
                    > > a more modern, shaved look, and
                    > >
                    > > does not appear as thin as it really
                    > >
                    > > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                    > >
                    > > different too).
                    > >
                    > > When looking at the front cover photo,
                    > >
                    > > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                    > >
                    > > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                    > >
                    > > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                    > >
                    > > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                    > >
                    > > makes Klemp look younger.
                    > >
                    > > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                    > >
                    > > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                    > >
                    > > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                    > >
                    > > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                    > >
                    > > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                    > >
                    > > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                    > >
                    > > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                    > >
                    > > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                    > >
                    > > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                    > >
                    > > a "true friend" say such nasty
                    > > and mean
                    > >
                    > > things to you? These RESAs and other
                    > >
                    > > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                    > >
                    > > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                    > >
                    > > now they see that there are strings
                    > >
                    > > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                    > >
                    > > ship.
                    > >
                    > > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                    > >
                    > > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                    > >
                    > > himself, or give it to you... free of
                    > >
                    > > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                    > >
                    > > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                    > >
                    > > make even more money from his image.
                    > >
                    > > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                    > >
                    > > as though he has a big hole running
                    > >
                    > > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                    > >
                    > > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                    > >
                    > > The chain would go through his ears!
                    > >
                    > > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                    > >
                    > > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                    > >
                    > > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                    > >
                    > > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Jay and All, Marman is connected to Klemp because he is an EKist (7th Initiate) and claims to be a long-time friend of HK s. Marman (Doug) is an
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                      Hello Jay and All,
                      Marman is connected to Klemp
                      because he is an EKist (7th Initiate)
                      and claims to be a long-time friend
                      of HK's. Marman (Doug) is an apologist
                      for both Klemp and PT, and has a
                      following from an EK fringe group.
                      Just read some of DM's older dialogue
                      and arguments, especially, with David
                      Lane. Steve Runfeldt (EK Internet PR
                      Guru) is another EK apologist who, also,
                      rates a D- when debating (online) with
                      David Lane.

                      BTW- I think that I first read Jane Roberts'
                      books in the early 1970's and once was
                      tempted to stop by for a short visit with
                      her and her husband in Binghamton (since
                      I was passing through at the time). But,
                      my passenger didn't want to stop. I got
                      the impression from reading her books
                      that writing, for Jane, was like a form of
                      therapy that helped to give her some sort
                      of balance, peace of mind, and meaning
                      for her life that helped it all to make sense.
                      From her descriptions, about herself, she
                      came across as having a lot of nervous
                      energy and smoking her cigarettes seemed
                      to calm her. 8th Initiate Millie (Workman)
                      Moore was much the same, but used the
                      spoken word versus the written word.

                      BTW-What do you think about Marman's
                      TS comments about Rebazar and the Holocaust
                      "probably" being myth?

                      Prometheus


                      Jay wrote:

                      Hi Prometheus

                      Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word
                      but how is Marman connected with HK?..and
                      yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                      being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over
                      7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence
                      of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth
                      stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab
                      had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking
                      back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past
                      is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the
                      present.

                      Jay

                      From: prometheus
                      Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                      Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                      Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                      fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                      that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                      this is similar to beating a dead horse
                      when sorting out the truth from all the
                      crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                      distracted from the current, now, happenings
                      under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                      Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                      He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                      the hook via his distractions involving
                      Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                      avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                      PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                      the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                      in order to confuse the issue.

                      Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                      but became more and more insane over
                      time. And, look at those "creative" people
                      in business who have scammed thousands
                      of individuals out of their life savings! They
                      even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                      foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                      Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                      expected from a person who paid to be
                      included in "The International Who's Who
                      of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                      why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                      "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                      themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                      Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                      redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                      historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                      EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                      with their current views of society and how
                      it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                      are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                      Masters?

                      BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                      a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                      a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                      actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                      truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                      much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                      Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                      "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                      that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                      as well!

                      As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                      it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                      With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                      said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                      or any other EK Master!

                      FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                      This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                      "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                      the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                      the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                      about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                      to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                      looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                      happens because asking too many questions shows
                      spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                      in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                      comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                      answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                      the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                      This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                      works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                      or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                      within the Satsang Society.

                      Prometheus

                      Jay wrote:

                      Dear Etznab

                      Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                      its a fictional piece based on the well known
                      metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                      I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                      features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                      multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                      in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                      Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                      by clicking on the classes button and then the
                      audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                      them in order as not to get confused of what's
                      being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                      the particular section of Over soul seven and
                      Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                      g'luk

                      Jay

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                      > From: Jason

                      >
                      >

                      Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                      >
                      Etznab,
                      Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                      >
                      Prometheus,

                      Etznab wrote:
                      > No. I haven't.
                      >
                      > The reference to number seven interests me.
                      > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                      > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                      > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                      > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                      > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                      > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                      > to speak. Examples:
                      >
                      > p. 156
                      >
                      > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                      > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                      > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                      > all!"
                      >
                      > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                      > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                      > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                      > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                      > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                      >
                      > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                      > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                      > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                      > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                      > the same book.
                      >
                      > p. 195
                      >
                      > "When I want to show the world my highest
                      > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                      > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                      > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                      > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                      > final for he represents my power in the seven
                      > lower worlds."
                      >
                      > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                      > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                      >
                      > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                      > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                      > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                      > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                      > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                      > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                      > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                      >
                      > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                      >
                      > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                      > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                      > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                      > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                      > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                      > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                      > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                      > book would mention this many and then the
                      > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                      > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                      > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                      > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                      >
                      > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                      > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                      > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                      > of the chapter:
                      >
                      > p. 197
                      >
                      > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                      > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                      > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                      > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                      > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                      >
                      > p. 199
                      >
                      > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                      > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                      > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                      > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                      > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                      >
                      > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                      > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                      > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                      > other time mentions seven spheres.
                      >
                      > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                      > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                      > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                      > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                      >
                      > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                      > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                      > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                      > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                      > a total of only seven planets.
                      >
                      > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                      > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                      > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                      > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                      > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                      > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                      > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                      > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                      > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                      > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                      > was already known to history? How much was in
                      > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                      > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                      > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                      > how much of the material had actually come direct
                      > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                      > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                      >
                      > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                      > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                      > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                      > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      I m not so sure the past is a dead horse . In fact, I would call it very much alive and is the basis for many people s present & future beliefs about numerous
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                        I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".
                        In fact, I would call it very much alive and is
                        the basis for many people's present & future
                        beliefs about numerous things.

                        Going back and clarifying the past is what
                        I am seeking to do, by isolating the context
                        of those many stories I have read and heard
                        told in Eckankar books and discussions.

                        This is something I've been wanting to do
                        for a long time. Establish the "context". For
                        example, What is the literal truth and what
                        is not?

                        Here is why I think this important. When I
                        can prove beyond a doubt that something is
                        fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that
                        regard. It's power over me would not be the
                        same, not have the same influence & power
                        over my belief system and psyche as some-
                        thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With
                        myth and fiction - knowing a source is that -
                        it leaves me with the liberty to explore further
                        and to learn how the story came about in the
                        first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the
                        people who take pseudo religion and history
                        to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.
                        I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &
                        infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my
                        conscience, living with the thought I am know-
                        ingly spreading fact for fiction.

                        BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.
                        I'm just now getting around to reading mail.

                        Etznab





                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm
                        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                        Soul "Body"








                        Hi Prometheus

                        Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman
                        connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                        being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just
                        mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane
                        Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had
                        in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a
                        dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk
                        in the present.

                        Jay

                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                        "Body"













                        Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,

                        Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's

                        fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam

                        that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that

                        this is similar to beating a dead horse

                        when sorting out the truth from all the

                        crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be

                        distracted from the current, now, happenings

                        under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.


                        =0
                        A
                        Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.

                        He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off

                        the hook via his distractions involving

                        Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,

                        avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon

                        PT's "creative writing" by manipulating

                        the lies and myth that Twitchell created

                        in order to confuse the issue.



                        Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,

                        but became more and more insane over

                        time. And, look at those "creative" people

                        in business who have scammed thousands

                        of individuals out of their life savings! They

                        even scammed hospitals and non-profit

                        foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!

                        Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's

                        expected from a person who paid to be

                        included in "The International Who's Who

                        of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,

                        why do EKists need Klemp when they can

                        "create" their own reality/destiny and make

                        themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a

                        Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is

                        redundant and lives in the past by quoting

                        historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote

                        EK Masters, still living in a physical body,

                        with their current views of society and how

                        it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where

                        are these relevant "insights" from these EK

                        Masters?



                        BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote

                        a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes

                        a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,

                        actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real

                        truth about Marman's book is that it comes

                        much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                        Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that

                        "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and

                        that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"

                        as well!



                        As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"

                        it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues

                        With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever

                        said/written about his discussions with Rebazar

                        or any other EK Master!



                        FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!

                        This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the

                        "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as

                        the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as

                        the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned

                        about this "upper region," although, it is referred

                        to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-

                        looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This

                        happens because asking too many questions shows

                        spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and

                        in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"

                        comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for

                        answers. However, all "answers" must agree with

                        the same text that contain the conflicting info!

                        This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma

                        works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,

                        or they're Black Ball
                        ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"

                        within the Satsang Society.



                        Prometheus



                        Jay wrote:



                        Dear Etznab



                        Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,

                        its a fictional piece based on the well known

                        metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..

                        I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson

                        features it as part of his hypothesis as us having

                        multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,

                        in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher

                        Consciousness Society website. You'll find them

                        by clicking on the classes button and then the

                        audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to

                        them in order as not to get confused of what's

                        being discussed and explained by Johnson,

                        the particular section of Over soul seven and

                        Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                        g'luk



                        Jay



                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > ____________ _________ _________ __

                        > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                        >

                        >



                        Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                        >

                        Etznab,

                        Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                        >

                        Prometheus,



                        Etznab wrote:

                        > No. I haven't.

                        >

                        > The reference to number seven interests me.

                        > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are

                        > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v
                        ersion of

                        > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave

                        > me the impression of eight basic planes, where

                        > the eighth (and highest) was considered above

                        > them all. Like, something on another level, so

                        > to speak. Examples:

                        >

                        > p. 156

                        >

                        > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet

                        > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres

                        > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear

                        > all!"

                        >

                        > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,

                        > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm

                        > not sure. That quote is on the second page

                        > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.

                        > Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                        >

                        > For some reason, I'm under the impression

                        > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from

                        > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the

                        > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in

                        > the same book.

                        >

                        > p. 195

                        >

                        > "When I want to show the world my highest

                        > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.

                        > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the

                        > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will

                        > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree

                        > final for he represents my power in the seven

                        > lower worlds."

                        >

                        > [That was fro
                        m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.

                        > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                        >

                        > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in

                        > my earlier post. The being supposed to have

                        > spoken those words was either Anami, or the

                        > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could

                        > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that

                        > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.

                        > Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                        >

                        > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                        >

                        > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.

                        > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?

                        > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental

                        > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami

                        > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but

                        > I suspect the earlier models had around eight

                        > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's

                        > book would mention this many and then the

                        > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give

                        > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative

                        > haste, and will have to go back & check the

                        > names of the planes for accuracy.)

                        >

                        > In the next chapter following that one (THE

                        > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs

                        > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph

                        > of the chapter:

                        >

                        > p. 1
                        97

                        >

                        > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take

                        > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond

                        > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth

                        > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So

                        > you will then know for yourself. [....]

                        >

                        > p. 199

                        >

                        > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,

                        > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are

                        > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must

                        > serve to take the message of the divine to all my

                        > creations throughout the seven spheres."

                        >

                        > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And

                        > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,

                        > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-

                        > other time mentions seven spheres.

                        >

                        > It was the context from those chapters that gave me

                        > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",

                        > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a

                        > place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                        >

                        > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.

                        > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to

                        > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even

                        > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in

                        > a total of only seven planets.

                        >

                        > As I begin re
                        ading through the Eck books again -

                        > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious

                        > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,

                        > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing

                        > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's

                        > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to

                        > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand

                        > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was

                        > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                        > materials. Like, how much of it was material that

                        > was already known to history? How much was in

                        > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D

                        > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?

                        > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,

                        > how much of the material had actually come direct

                        > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens

                        > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                        >

                        > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and

                        > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,

                        > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with

                        > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                        >

                        > Etznab

                        >

                        > -----Original Message-----

                        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>

                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                        > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20
                        09 1:41 pm

                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.
                        the Soul

                        > "Body"

                        >

                        > Hello Etznab,

                        >

                        > You make some good points and have

                        >

                        > brought up more information to point

                        >

                        > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                        >

                        > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                        >

                        > and D.W.T.M. later.

                        >

                        > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                        >

                        > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                        >

                        > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                        >

                        > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                        >

                        > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                        >

                        > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                        >

                        > overlook this point. And, look at how

                        >

                        > many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                        >

                        > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                        >

                        > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                        >

                        > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0

                        > D

                        >

                        > Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                        >

                        > under Klemp's rule(s)!

                        >

                        > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                        >

                        > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                        >

                        > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                        >

                        > Over-Soul and that
                        these Souls need to

                        >

                        > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                        >

                        > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                        >

                        > being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                        >

                        > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                        >

                        > by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                        >

                        > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                        >

                        > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                        >

                        > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                        >

                        > Prometheus

                        >

                        > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                        >

                        > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                        >

                        > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                        >

                        > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                        >

                        > Plane!

                        >

                        > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                        >

                        > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                        >

                        > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                        >

                        > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                        >

                        > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                        >

                        > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                        >

                        > Etznab wrote:

                        >

                        > I would like to know the difference between

                        >

                        > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                        >

                        > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                        >

                        > about the inner=2
                        0form of the Living Eck Master.

                        >

                        > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                        >

                        > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0

                        > D

                        >

                        > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                        >

                        > This is something I've been contemplating

                        >

                        > for some time: What is different with the two

                        >

                        > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                        >

                        > about this subject).

                        >

                        > There's another thing on this subject, and it

                        >

                        > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                        >

                        > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                        >

                        > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                        >

                        > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                        >

                        > any of the other lower world bodies where there

                        >

                        > are many different ones - including the physical

                        >

                        > body.

                        >

                        > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                        >

                        > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                        >

                        > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                        >

                        > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                        >

                        > Something like another dimension.

                        >

                        > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                        >

                        > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                        >

                        > the L
                        iving Eck Master become so important?

                        >

                        > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                        >

                        > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                        >

                        > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                        >

                        > understanding is that the astral body is limited

                        >

                        > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                        >

                        > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                        >

                        > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                        >

                        > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                        >

                        > it reads like that was his first vis

                        > it. However, in

                        >

                        > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                        >

                        > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                        >

                        > already!

                        >

                        > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                        >

                        > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                        >

                        > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                        >

                        > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                        >

                        > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                        >

                        > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                        >

                        > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                        >

                        > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                        >

                        > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                        >

                        > the way to the nameless
                        plane. Anami. & not

                        >

                        > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                        >

                        > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                        >

                        > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                        >

                        > Fang account and the year 1957.

                        >

                        > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                        >

                        > I wonder, were those two different books, the

                        >

                        > two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                        >

                        > experience?

                        >

                        > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                        >

                        > online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                        >

                        > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                        >

                        > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                        >

                        > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                        >

                        > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                        >

                        > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                        >

                        > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                        >

                        > A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                        >

                        > I've

                        > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                        >

                        > books and read from the beginning, looking at

                        >

                        > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                        >

                        > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                        >

                        > this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                        >

                        > had20escaped me up until now.

                        >

                        > Etznab

                        >

                        > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                        >

                        > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                        >

                        > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                        >

                        > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                        >

                        > or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                        >

                        > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                        >

                        > of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                        >

                        > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                        >

                        > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                        >

                        > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                        >

                        > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                        >

                        > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                        >

                        > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                        >

                        > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                        >

                        > teach and other "believers" experience!

                        >

                        > Prometheus

                        >

                        > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                        >

                        > Hello All,

                        >

                        > It was bad enough that HK sold

                        >

                        > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                        >

                        > portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                        >

                        > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).

                        > 0D

                        >

                        > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                        =0
                        A
                        >

                        > portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                        >

                        > The truth has (once again) been

                        >

                        > embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                        >

                        > no doubt, likes this rendition because

                        >

                        > it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                        >

                        > this drawing looks more "sketch"

                        >

                        > like than portrait like!

                        >

                        > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                        >

                        > a more modern, shaved look, and

                        >

                        > does not appear as thin as it really

                        >

                        > is (the inside portion of his ear is

                        >

                        > different too).

                        >

                        > When looking at the front cover photo,

                        >

                        > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                        >

                        > World of ECKankar" we can see that

                        >

                        > Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                        >

                        > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                        >

                        > makes Klemp look younger.

                        >

                        > The question ECKists should be asking is,

                        >

                        > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                        >

                        > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                        >

                        > followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                        >

                        > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                        >

                        > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                        >

                        > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0
                        D

                        >

                        > I think it's funny that Klemp names

                        >

                        > this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                        >

                        > a "true friend" say such nasty

                        > and mean

                        >

                        > things to you? These RESAs and other

                        >

                        > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                        >

                        > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                        >

                        > now they see that there are strings

                        >

                        > attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                        >

                        > ship.

                        >

                        > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                        >

                        > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                        >

                        > himself, or give it to you... free of

                        >

                        > charge? Hmmmmmm.

                        >

                        > On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                        >

                        > make even more money from his image.

                        >

                        > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                        >

                        > as though he has a big hole running

                        >

                        > through his head. So, maybe HK could

                        >

                        > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                        >

                        > The chain would go through his ears!

                        >

                        > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                        >

                        > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                        >

                        > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                        >

                        > he does with portraits, books, etc.

                        >

                        > Prometheus

                        >

                        &
                        gt;

                        > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                        .yahoo.com

                        >

                        >

                        > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                        .yahoo.com

                        >











                        Send instant messages to your online friends
                        http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        Typo correction. The following sentence I don t have to have guilt on my conscience, living with the thought I am knowingly spreading fact for fiction.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                          Typo correction. The following sentence

                          "I don't have to have guilt on my conscience,
                          living with the thought I am knowingly spreading
                          fact for fiction."

                          should read: fiction for fact, instead of fact
                          for fiction.

                          Etznab

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: etznab@...
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 6:47 pm
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                          Soul "Body"










                          I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".

                          In fact, I would call it very much alive and is

                          the basis for many people's present & future

                          beliefs about numerous things.



                          Going back and clarifying the past is what

                          I am seeking to do, by isolating the context

                          of those many stories I have read and heard

                          told in Eckankar books and discussions.



                          This is something I've been wanting to do

                          for a long time. Establish the "context". For

                          example, What is the literal truth and what

                          is not?



                          Here is why I think this important. When I

                          can prove beyond a doubt that something is

                          fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that

                          regard. It's power over me would not be the

                          same, not have the same influence & power

                          over my belief system and psyche as some-

                          thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With

                          myth and fiction - knowing a source is that
                          -

                          it leaves me with the liberty to explore further

                          and to learn how the story came about in the

                          first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the

                          people who take pseudo religion and history

                          to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.

                          I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &

                          infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my

                          conscience, living with the thought I am know-

                          ingly spreading fact for fiction.



                          BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.

                          I'm just now getting around to reading mail.



                          Etznab



                          -----Original Message-----

                          From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                          Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm

                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the

                          Soul "Body"



                          Hi Prometheus



                          Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman

                          connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff

                          being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just

                          mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane

                          Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had

                          in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a

                          dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk

                          in the present.



                          Jay



                          =0
                          AFrom: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                          Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08

                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul

                          "Body"



                          Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,



                          Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's



                          fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam



                          that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that



                          this is similar to beating a dead horse



                          when sorting out the truth from all the



                          crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be



                          distracted from the current, now, happenings



                          under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.



                          =0

                          A

                          Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.



                          He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off



                          the hook via his distractions involving



                          Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,



                          avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon



                          PT's "creative writing" by manipulating



                          the lies and myth that Twitchell created



                          in order to confuse the issue.



                          Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,



                          but became more and more insane over



                          time. And, look at those "creative" people



                          in business who have scammed thousands



                          of individuals out of their life savings! They



                          even scammed hospitals and non-profit



                          foundations!
                          Very "creative" weren't they!



                          Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's



                          expected from a person who paid to be



                          included in "The International Who's Who



                          of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,



                          why do EKists need Klemp when they can



                          "create" their own reality/destiny and make



                          themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a



                          Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is



                          redundant and lives in the past by quoting



                          historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote



                          EK Masters, still living in a physical body,



                          with their current views of society and how



                          it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where



                          are these relevant "insights" from these EK



                          Masters?



                          BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote



                          a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes



                          a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,



                          actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real



                          truth about Marman's book is that it comes



                          much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                          Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that



                          "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and



                          that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"



                          as well!



                          As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"



                          it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues




                          With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever



                          said/written about his discussions with Rebazar



                          or any other EK Master!



                          FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!



                          This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the



                          "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as



                          the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as



                          the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned



                          about this "upper region," although, it is referred



                          to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-



                          looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This



                          happens because asking too many questions shows



                          spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and



                          in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"



                          comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for



                          answers. However, all "answers" must agree with



                          the same text that contain the conflicting info!



                          This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma



                          works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,



                          or they're Black Ball

                          ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"



                          within the Satsang Society.



                          Prometheus



                          Jay wrote:



                          Dear Etznab



                          Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,



                          its a fictional piece based on the well20known



                          metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..



                          I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson



                          features it as part of his hypothesis as us having



                          multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,



                          in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher



                          Consciousness Society website. You'll find them



                          by clicking on the classes button and then the



                          audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to



                          them in order as not to get confused of what's



                          being discussed and explained by Johnson,



                          the particular section of Over soul seven and



                          Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                          g'luk



                          Jay



                          >



                          >



                          >



                          > ____________ _________ _________ __



                          > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                          >



                          >



                          Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                          >



                          Etznab,



                          Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                          >



                          Prometheus,



                          Etznab wrote:



                          > No. I haven't.



                          >



                          > The reference to number seven interests me.



                          > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are



                          > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v

                          ersion of=0
                          D



                          > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave



                          > me the impression of eight basic planes, where



                          > the eighth (and highest) was considered above



                          > them all. Like, something on another level, so



                          > to speak. Examples:



                          >



                          > p. 156



                          >



                          > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet



                          > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres



                          > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear



                          > all!"



                          >



                          > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,



                          > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm



                          > not sure. That quote is on the second page



                          > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.



                          > Question: Why does he mention seven?]



                          >



                          > For some reason, I'm under the impression



                          > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from



                          > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the



                          > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in



                          > the same book.



                          >



                          > p. 195



                          >



                          > "When I want to show the world my highest



                          > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.



                          > This is my greatest gift and boon.=2
                          0He is the



                          > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will



                          > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree



                          > final for he represents my power in the seven



                          > lower worlds."



                          >



                          > [That was fro

                          m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.



                          > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the



                          >



                          > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in



                          > my earlier post. The being supposed to have



                          > spoken those words was either Anami, or the



                          > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could



                          > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that



                          > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.



                          > Consider the last seven words in that quote:



                          >



                          > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."



                          >



                          > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.



                          > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?



                          > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental



                          > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami



                          > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but



                          > I suspect the earlier models had around eight



                          > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's



                          > book=2
                          0would mention this many and then the



                          > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give



                          > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative



                          > haste, and will have to go back & check the



                          > names of the planes for accuracy.)



                          >



                          > In the next chapter following that one (THE



                          > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs



                          > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph



                          > of the chapter:



                          >



                          > p. 1

                          97



                          >



                          > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take



                          > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond



                          > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth



                          > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So



                          > you will then know for yourself. [....]



                          >



                          > p. 199



                          >



                          > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,



                          > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are



                          > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must



                          > serve to take the message of the divine to all my



                          > creations throughout the seven spheres."



                          >



                          > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And



                          > by non
                          e other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,



                          > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-



                          > other time mentions seven spheres.



                          >



                          > It was the context from those chapters that gave me



                          > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",



                          > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a



                          > place "above" them and making a total of eight.



                          >



                          > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.



                          > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to



                          > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even



                          > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in



                          > a total of only seven planets.



                          >



                          > As I begin re

                          ading through the Eck books again -



                          > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious



                          > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,



                          > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing



                          > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's



                          > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to



                          > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand



                          > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was



                          > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                          =0
                          D

                          > materials. Like, how much of it was material that



                          > was already known to history? How much was in



                          > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D



                          > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?



                          > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,



                          > how much of the material had actually come direct



                          > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens



                          > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?



                          >



                          > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and



                          > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,



                          > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with



                          > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.



                          >



                          > Etznab



                          >



                          > -----Original Message-----



                          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>



                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com



                          > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20

                          09 1:41 pm



                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.

                          the Soul



                          > "Body"



                          >



                          > Hello Etznab,



                          >



                          > You make some good points and have



                          >



                          > brought up more information to point



                          =0
                          A>



                          > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.



                          >



                          > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"



                          >



                          > and D.W.T.M. later.



                          >



                          > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra



                          >



                          > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;



                          >



                          > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th



                          >



                          > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"



                          >



                          > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral



                          >



                          > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to



                          >



                          > overlook this point. And, look at how



                          >



                          > many years Klemp has instructed EKists



                          >



                          > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/



                          >



                          > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra



                          >



                          > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0



                          > D



                          >



                          > Chakra is still being used after 28 years



                          >



                          > under Klemp's rule(s)!



                          >



                          > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is



                          >



                          > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There



                          >



                          > is a belief that Groups
                          of Souls have an



                          >



                          > Over-Soul and that

                          these Souls need to



                          >



                          > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)



                          >



                          > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/



                          >



                          > being that same Over-Soul which, then,



                          >



                          > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can



                          >



                          > by-pass the hierarchy and can become



                          >



                          > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,



                          >



                          > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have



                          >



                          > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                          >



                          > Prometheus



                          >



                          > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI



                          >



                          > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is



                          >



                          > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"



                          >



                          > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th



                          >



                          > Plane!



                          >



                          > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"



                          >



                          > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,



                          >



                          > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect



                          >



                          > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "
                          advanced"



                          >



                          > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"



                          >



                          > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



                          >



                          > Etznab wrote:



                          >



                          > I would like to know the difference between



                          >



                          > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,



                          >



                          > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something



                          >



                          > about the inner=2

                          0form of the Living Eck Master.



                          >



                          > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called



                          >



                          > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0



                          > D



                          >



                          > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



                          >



                          > This is something I've been contemplating



                          >



                          > for some time: What is different with the two



                          >



                          > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me



                          >



                          > about this subject).



                          >



                          > There's another thing on this subject, and it



                          >



                          > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,



                          >



                          > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided



                          >



                          > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the




                          >



                          > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,



                          >



                          > any of the other lower world bodies where there



                          >



                          > are many different ones - including the physical



                          >



                          > body.



                          >



                          > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma



                          >



                          > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is



                          >



                          > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul



                          >



                          > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.



                          >



                          > Something like another dimension.



                          >



                          > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?



                          >



                          > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of



                          >



                          > the L

                          iving Eck Master become so important?



                          >



                          > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled



                          >



                          > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that



                          >



                          > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My



                          >



                          > understanding is that the astral body is limited



                          >



                          > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup



                          >



                          > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one=2
                          0would have



                          >



                          > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



                          >



                          > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book



                          >



                          > it reads like that was his first vis



                          > it. However, in



                          >



                          > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The



                          >



                          > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice



                          >



                          > already!



                          >



                          > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                          >



                          > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the



                          >



                          > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.



                          >



                          > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the



                          >



                          > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and



                          >



                          > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after



                          >



                          > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul



                          >



                          > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)



                          >



                          > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all



                          >



                          > the way to the nameless

                          plane. Anami. & not



                          >



                          > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem



                          >



                          &
                          gt; quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-



                          >



                          > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's



                          >



                          > Fang account and the year 1957.



                          >



                          > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                          >



                          > I wonder, were those two different books, the



                          >



                          > two different manuscripts, about the same basic



                          >



                          > experience?



                          >



                          > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an



                          >



                          > online version of The Path of the Masters? by



                          >



                          > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter



                          >



                          > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the



                          >



                          > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The



                          >



                          > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257



                          >



                          > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami



                          >



                          > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:



                          >



                          > A Talk With Rami Nuri.



                          >



                          > I've



                          > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early



                          >



                          > books and read from the beginning, looking at



                          >


                          0D
                          > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over



                          >



                          > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at



                          >



                          > this point in time. I'm discovering things that



                          >



                          > had20escaped me up until now.



                          >



                          > Etznab



                          >



                          > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                          >



                          > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



                          >



                          > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



                          >



                          > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



                          >



                          > or contemplate upon his Physical image via



                          >



                          > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



                          >



                          > of an Astral image. How is this the same as



                          >



                          > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



                          >



                          > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



                          >



                          > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



                          >



                          > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



                          >



                          > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



                          >



                          > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



                          >



                          > of the Lower Planes=2
                          0just as all other religions



                          >



                          > teach and other "believers" experience!



                          >



                          > Prometheus



                          >



                          > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



                          >



                          > Hello All,



                          >



                          > It was bad enough that HK sold



                          >



                          > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



                          >



                          > portrait. Now he's selling the "True



                          >



                          > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



                          > 0D



                          >



                          > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                          =0

                          A

                          >



                          > portrait accurately? No, not quite!



                          >



                          > The truth has (once again) been



                          >



                          > embellished and distorted! Klemp,



                          >



                          > no doubt, likes this rendition because



                          >



                          > it makes him appear younger. Thus,



                          >



                          > this drawing looks more "sketch"



                          >



                          > like than portrait like!



                          >



                          > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



                          >



                          > a more modern, shaved look, and



                          >



                          > does not appear as thin as it really



                          >



                          > is (t
                          he inside portion of his ear is



                          >



                          > different too).



                          >



                          > When looking at the front cover photo,



                          >



                          > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



                          >



                          > World of ECKankar" we can see that



                          >



                          > Klemp parts his hair on the side and



                          >



                          > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



                          >



                          > makes Klemp look younger.



                          >



                          > The question ECKists should be asking is,



                          >



                          > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



                          >



                          > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



                          >



                          > followers all want to "imagine" that they look



                          >



                          > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



                          >



                          > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



                          >



                          > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0

                          D



                          >



                          > I think it's funny that Klemp names



                          >



                          > this new portrait "True Friend." Would



                          >



                          > a "true friend" say such nasty



                          > and mean



                          >



                          > things to you? These RESAs and ot
                          her



                          >



                          > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



                          >



                          > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



                          >



                          > now they see that there are strings



                          >



                          > attached and that it's a one-way friend-



                          >



                          > ship.



                          >



                          > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



                          >



                          > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



                          >



                          > himself, or give it to you... free of



                          >



                          > charge? Hmmmmmm.



                          >



                          > On another note, I saw how Klemp can



                          >



                          > make even more money from his image.



                          >



                          > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



                          >



                          > as though he has a big hole running



                          >



                          > through his head. So, maybe HK could



                          >



                          > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



                          >



                          > The chain would go through his ears!



                          >



                          > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



                          >



                          > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK



                          >



                          > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



                          >


                          =0
                          A
                          > he does with portraits, books, etc.



                          >



                          > Prometheus



                          >



                          &

                          gt;



                          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                          .yahoo.com



                          >



                          >



                          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                          .yahoo.com



                          >



                          Send instant messages to your online friends

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