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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Have you ever read about, Over-Soul Seven? Prometheus, No. I haven t. The reference to number seven interests me. Since seven heavens , or seven spheres
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 24, 2009
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      Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

      Prometheus,

      No. I haven't.

      The reference to number seven interests me.
      Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
      mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
      Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
      me the impression of eight basic planes, where
      the eighth (and highest) was considered above
      them all. Like, something on another level, so
      to speak. Examples:

      p. 156

      "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
      of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
      of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
      all!"

      [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
      during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
      not sure. That quote is on the second page
      of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
      Question: Why does he mention seven?]

      For some reason, I'm under the impression
      that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
      a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
      8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
      the same book.

      p. 195

      "When I want to show the world my highest
      grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
      This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
      sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
      is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
      final for he represents my power in the seven
      lower worlds."

      [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
      I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

      Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
      my earlier post. The being supposed to have
      spoken those words was either Anami, or the
      SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
      have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
      story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
      Consider the last seven words in that quote:

      ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

      I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
      Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
      (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
      (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
      Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
      I suspect the earlier models had around eight
      planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
      book would mention this many and then the
      1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
      a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
      haste, and will have to go back & check the
      names of the planes for accuracy.)

      In the next chapter following that one (THE
      SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
      go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
      of the chapter:

      p. 197

      Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
      you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
      into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
      of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
      you will then know for yourself. [....]

      p. 199

      "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
      speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
      among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
      serve to take the message of the divine to all my
      creations throughout the seven spheres."

      Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
      by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
      once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
      other time mentions seven spheres.

      It was the context from those chapters that gave me
      the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
      etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
      place "above" them and making a total of eight.

      I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
      Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
      be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
      during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
      a total of only seven planets.

      As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
      starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
      notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
      when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
      and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
      1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
      take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
      the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
      (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
      materials. Like, how much of it was material that
      was already known to history? How much was in
      the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
      How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
      How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
      how much of the material had actually come direct
      from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
      (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

      This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
      so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
      history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
      other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

      Etznab



      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
      "Body"








      Hello Etznab,

      You make some good points and have

      brought up more information to point

      out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

      I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

      and D.W.T.M. later.



      It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

      Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

      Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

      Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

      their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

      "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

      overlook this point. And, look at how

      many years Klemp has instructed EKists

      to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

      singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

      is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
      D

      Chakra is still being used after 28 years

      under Klemp's rule(s)!



      BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

      actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

      is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

      Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

      become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

      or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

      being that same Over-Soul which, then,

      becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

      by-pass the hierarchy and can become

      "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

      on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

      you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



      Prometheus

      p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

      LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

      where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

      resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

      Plane!



      Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

      thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

      Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

      with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

      Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

      [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



      Etznab wrote:

      I would like to know the difference between

      Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

      the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

      about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.



      The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

      a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
      D

      Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



      This is something I've been contemplating

      for some time: What is different with the two

      types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

      about this subject).



      There's another thing on this subject, and it

      has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

      I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

      body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

      Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

      any of the other lower world bodies where there

      are many different ones - including the physical

      body.



      So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

      Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

      only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

      Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

      Something like another dimension.



      Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

      and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

      the Living Eck Master become so important?

      Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

      to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

      the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

      understanding is that the astral body is limited

      to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

      transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

      to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



      Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

      it reads like that was his first vis
      it. However, in

      the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

      Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

      already!



      ?????????????????????????????????????



      A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

      Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

      to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

      D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

      T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

      getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

      Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

      Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

      the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

      only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

      quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

      Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

      Fang account and the year 1957.



      ?????????????????????????????????????



      I wonder, were those two different books, the

      two different manuscripts, about the same basic

      experience?



      BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

      online version of The Path of the Masters? by

      Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

      entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

      Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

      Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

      on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

      Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

      A Talk With Rami Nuri.



      I've
      decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

      books and read from the beginning, looking at

      how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

      the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

      this point in time. I'm discovering things that

      had escaped me up until now.



      Etznab



      HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



      Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



      is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



      chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



      or contemplate upon his Physical image via



      his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



      of an Astral image. How is this the same as



      meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



      Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



      with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



      than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



      Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



      (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



      of the Lower Planes just as all other religions



      teach and other "believers" experience!



      Prometheus



      Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



      Hello All,



      It was bad enough that HK sold



      his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



      portrait. Now he's selling the "True



      Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
      0D


      But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the



      portrait accurately? No, not quite!



      The truth has (once again) been



      embellished and distorted! Klemp,



      no doubt, likes this rendition because



      it makes him appear younger. Thus,



      this drawing looks more "sketch"



      like than portrait like!



      What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



      a more modern, shaved look, and



      does not appear as thin as it really



      is (the inside portion of his ear is



      different too).



      When looking at the front cover photo,



      of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



      World of ECKankar" we can see that



      Klemp parts his hair on the side and



      does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



      makes Klemp look younger.



      The question ECKists should be asking is,



      Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



      are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



      followers all want to "imagine" that they look



      "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



      Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



      rather than having an Astral Plane image!



      I think it's funny that Klemp names



      this new portrait "True Friend." Would



      a "true friend" say such nasty
      and mean



      things to you? These RESAs and other



      H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



      Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



      now they see that there are strings



      attached and that it's a one-way friend-



      ship.



      BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



      you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



      himself, or give it to you... free of



      charge? Hmmmmmm.



      On another note, I saw how Klemp can



      make even more money from his image.



      HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



      as though he has a big hole running



      through his head. So, maybe HK could



      have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



      The chain would go through his ears!



      He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



      $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK



      will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



      he does with portraits, books, etc.



      Prometheus
    • Jason Mc Dermott
      Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
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        Dear Etznab

        I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                   The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                    Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
        The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

        Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they're quite good.

        Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
        As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

         Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

        I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

        Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

        I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

        Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
        http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html

        hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

        Jay




        From: "etznab@..." <etznab@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

        Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

        Prometheus,

        No. I haven't.

        The reference to number seven interests me.
        Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
        mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
        Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
        me the impression of eight basic planes, where
        the eighth (and highest) was considered above
        them all. Like, something on another level, so
        to speak. Examples:

        p. 156

        "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
        of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
        of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
        all!"

        [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
        during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
        not sure. That quote is on the second page
        of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
        Question: Why does he mention seven?]

        For some reason, I'm under the impression
        that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
        a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
        8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
        the same book.

        p. 195

        "When I want to show the world my highest
        grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
        This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
        sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
        is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
        final for he represents my power in the seven
        lower worlds."

        [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
        I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

        Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
        my earlier post. The being supposed to have
        spoken those words was either Anami, or the
        SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
        have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
        story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
        Consider the last seven words in that quote:

        ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

        I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
        Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
        (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
        (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
        Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
        I suspect the earlier models had around eight
        planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
        book would mention this many and then the
        1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
        a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
        haste, and will have to go back & check the
        names of the planes for accuracy.)

        In the next chapter following that one (THE
        SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
        go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
        of the chapter:

        p. 197

        Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
        you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
        into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
        of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
        you will then know for yourself. [....]

        p. 199

        "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
        speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
        among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
        serve to take the message of the divine to all my
        creations throughout the seven spheres."

        Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
        by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
        once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
        other time mentions seven spheres.

        It was the context from those chapters that gave me
        the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
        etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
        place "above" them and making a total of eight.

        I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
        Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
        be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
        during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
        a total of only seven planets.

        As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
        starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
        notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
        when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
        and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
        1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
        take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
        the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
        (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
        materials. Like, how much of it was material that
        was already known to history? How much was in
        the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
        How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
        How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
        how much of the material had actually come direct
        from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
        (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

        This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
        so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
        history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
        other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
        "Body"

        Hello Etznab,

        You make some good points and have

        brought up more information to point

        out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

        I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

        and D.W.T.M. later.

        It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

        Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

        Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

        Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

        their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

        "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

        overlook this point. And, look at how

        many years Klemp has instructed EKists

        to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

        singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

        is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
        D

        Chakra is still being used after 28 years

        under Klemp's rule(s)!

        BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

        actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

        is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

        Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

        become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

        or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

        being that same Over-Soul which, then,

        becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

        by-pass the hierarchy and can become

        "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

        on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

        you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

        Prometheus

        p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

        LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

        where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

        resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

        Plane!

        Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

        thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

        Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

        with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

        Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

        [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

        Etznab wrote:

        I would like to know the difference between

        Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

        the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

        about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

        The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

        a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
        D

        Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

        This is something I've been contemplating

        for some time: What is different with the two

        types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

        about this subject).

        There's another thing on this subject, and it

        has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

        I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

        body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

        Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

        any of the other lower world bodies where there

        are many different ones - including the physical

        body.

        So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

        Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

        only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

        Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

        Something like another dimension.

        Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

        and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

        the Living Eck Master become so important?

        Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

        to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

        the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

        understanding is that the astral body is limited

        to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

        transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

        to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

        Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

        it reads like that was his first vis
        it. However, in

        the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

        Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

        already!

        ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

        A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

        Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

        to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

        D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

        T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

        getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

        Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

        Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

        the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

        only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

        quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

        Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

        Fang account and the year 1957.

        ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

        I wonder, were those two different books, the

        two different manuscripts, about the same basic

        experience?

        BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

        online version of The Path of the Masters? by

        Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

        entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

        Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

        Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

        on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

        Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

        A Talk With Rami Nuri.

        I've
        decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

        books and read from the beginning, looking at

        how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

        the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

        this point in time. I'm discovering things that

        had escaped me up until now.

        Etznab

        HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

        Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

        is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

        chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

        or contemplate upon his Physical image via

        his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

        of an Astral image. How is this the same as

        meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

        Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

        with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

        than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

        Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

        (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

        of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

        teach and other "believers" experience!

        Prometheus

        Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

        Hello All,

        It was bad enough that HK sold

        his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

        portrait. Now he's selling the "True

        Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
        0D

        But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

        portrait accurately? No, not quite!

        The truth has (once again) been

        embellished and distorted! Klemp,

        no doubt, likes this rendition because

        it makes him appear younger. Thus,

        this drawing looks more "sketch"

        like than portrait like!

        What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

        a more modern, shaved look, and

        does not appear as thin as it really

        is (the inside portion of his ear is

        different too).

        When looking at the front cover photo,

        of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

        World of ECKankar" we can see that

        Klemp parts his hair on the side and

        does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

        makes Klemp look younger.

        The question ECKists should be asking is,

        Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

        are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

        followers all want to "imagine" that they look

        "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

        Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

        rather than having an Astral Plane image!

        I think it's funny that Klemp names

        this new portrait "True Friend." Would

        a "true friend" say such nasty
        and mean

        things to you? These RESAs and other

        H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

        Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

        now they see that there are strings

        attached and that it's a one-way friend-

        ship.

        BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

        you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

        himself, or give it to you... free of

        charge? Hmmmmmm.

        On another note, I saw how Klemp can

        make even more money from his image.

        HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

        as though he has a big hole running

        through his head. So, maybe HK could

        have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

        The chain would go through his ears!

        He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

        $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

        will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

        he does with portraits, books, etc.

        Prometheus


        Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
      • etznab@aol.com
        [....] So one year after getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for) Dialogues With The Master. In it he
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          "[....] So one year after getting initiated by
          Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul Twitchell writes
          a book (the manuscript for) Dialogues With
          The Master. In it he travels all the way to the
          nameless plane. Anami. & not only once,
          but twice! Something doesn't seem quite
          right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
          Realization is usually identified with The
          Tiger's Fang account and the year 1957."

          I think that needs a little clarification.

          In Dialogues With The Master Paul T.
          writes in the Introduction section:

          [....] He concluded his series of talks that
          year by taking me on the spiritual journey
          recorded in my book "The Tiger's Fang."

          Using the date for writing the Dialogues
          With The Master manuscript to be 1956,
          it would seem that the "spiritual journey"
          recorded in The Tiger's Fang book came
          in late 1956. Not 1957.

          Apparently, I was not the only person
          who mentioned 1957. Example:

          A natural question one might ask about the
          ECK Initiations is this: "If Paul Twitchell had
          God Realization in 1957, why did the ECK
          Master Shamus-i-Tabriz suggest that Paul
          was not omniscient?" Isn't a God-Realized
          person supposed to know all things?

          [....]

          Paul did have the experience of God Con-
          sciousness in 1957, but it took eight full
          years before he was ready for the mantle
          of the Mahanta in 1965. Even then he did
          not know all things, as the spiritually naive
          would like to think20he did.

          [....]

          [Based on: Soul Travelers Of The Far Country,
          by Harold Klemp, copyright 1987, pp. 140-141]

          Here is another example. One that gives both
          1956 and 1957.

          "In late 1956 or early 1957 Paul had the experience
          that is recorded in The Tiger's Fang. If he touched the
          face of God in 1956, some people may wonder why it
          took him until 1965 to become the Mahanta, the
          Living ECK Master. [....]"

          [Based on: Article (Touching the Face of God) @
          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail

          It's only a trivial point, I know, however I think it's
          important to establish the date for this event.

          BTW, there is a chapter in Dialogues With The
          Master entitled The Face of God. It is Paul's first
          trip to the "Anami Plane" that I mentioned in that
          earlier post (the second trip was in the chapter
          The Sugmad Speaks. It follows The Face of God
          chapter).

          Interesting what a little time & research can do.
          Now I think I see the reason for mentioning 1956
          and not 1957 for Paul Twitchell's God-Realization
          experience.

          All of this brings up a question, though. Did Paul
          write about that experience twice? Like in both the
          manuscripts? 1956: Dialogues With The Master &
          1957: The Tiger's Fang?

          The journey to "Sugmad" appears in The Tiger's
          Fang chapter entitled: The Spiritual Malignancy.
          In it, the being reportedly speaking to Paul gives
          four principles. In
          Dialogues With The Master the
          being reportedly speaking - in The Face of God
          chapter - gives three precepts.

          So which is the accurate record about Paul T.'s
          so-called God-Realization experience in which he
          reportedly meets the SUGMAD? Or, God?

          After just reading Dialogues With The Master
          another time, my guess would be that the first
          mention was in the Dialogues With The Master
          chapter entitled The Face of God.

          BTW, I found that one Eckankar quote more
          than a little curious.

          "In late 1956 or early 1957 Paul had the experience
          that is recorded in The Tiger's Fang. If he touched the
          face of God in 1956, some people may wonder why it
          took him until 1965 to become the Mahanta, the
          Living ECK Master. [....]"

          [Based on: Article (Touching the Face of God) @
          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail

          Well, apparently (I would add) the experience was
          also recorded in Dialogues With The Master.

          My references seem to suggest that D.W.T.M.
          manuscript was written before The Tiger's Fang.
          Perhaps there was one basic manuscript which
          recorded (wrote about) the experience and Paul
          (or Eckankar) later made it into two books.

          I'm planning to read The Tiger's Fang next, &
          compare it with Dialogues With The Master. It
          will take some time, but I'll get back with you
          and maybe we can discuss what actually took
          place.

          Etznab


          -----Original Message-----
          F
          rom: etznab@...
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 10:20 pm
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
          "Body"


          I would like to know the difference between
          Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
          the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
          about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

          The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
          a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
          Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

          This is something I've been contemplating
          for some time: What is different with the two
          types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
          about this subject).

          There's another thing on this subject, and it
          has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
          I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
          body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
          Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
          any of the other lower world bodies where there
          are many different ones - including the physical
          body.

          So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
          Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
          only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
          Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
          Something like another dimension.

          Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
          and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
          the Living Eck Master become so important?
          Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
          to the Anami Lok wit
          h Rebazar Tarzs was that
          the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
          understanding is that the astral body is limited
          to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
          transc
          ends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
          to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

          Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
          it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
          the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
          Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
          already!

          ?????????????????????????????????????

          A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
          Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
          to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
          D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
          T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
          getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
          Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
          Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
          the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
          only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
          quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
          Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
          Fang account and the year 1957.

          ?????????????????????????????????????

          I wonder, were those two different books, the
          two different manuscripts, about the same basic
          experience?

          BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
          online version of The Path of the Masters? by
          Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
          entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
          Univ
          erse (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
          Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
          on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
          Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Examp
          le:
          A Talk With Rami Nuri.

          I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
          books and read from the beginning, looking at
          how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
          the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
          this point in time. I'm discovering things that
          had escaped me up until now.

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 12:29 am
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
          "Body"








          Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

          is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

          chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

          or contemplate upon his Physical image via

          his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

          of an Astral image. How is this the same as

          meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

          Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

          with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

          than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

          Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

          (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

          of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

          teach and other "believers" experience!



          Prometheus






          Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



          Hello All,

          It was bad enough that HK sold

          his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

          portrait. No
          w he's selling the "True

          Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



          But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

          portrait accurately? No, not quite!

          The truth has (once again) been

          embellished and distorted! Klemp,

          no doubt, likes this rendition because

          it makes him appear younger. Thus,

          this drawing looks more "sketch"

          like than portrait like!



          What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

          a more modern, shaved look, and

          does not appear as thin as it really

          is (the inside portion of his ear is

          different too).



          When looking at the front cover photo,

          of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

          World of ECKankar" we can see that

          Klemp parts his hair on the side and

          does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

          makes Klemp look younger.



          The question ECKists should be asking is,

          Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

          are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

          followers all want to "imagine" that they look

          "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

          Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

          rather than having an Astral Plane image!



          I think it's funny that Klemp names

          this new portrait "True Frien
          d." Would

          a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

          things to you? These RESAs and other

          H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

          Letter see Klemp as a True Friend
          , but

          now they see that there are strings

          attached and that it's a one-way friend-

          ship.



          BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

          you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

          himself, or give it to you... free of

          charge? Hmmmmmm.



          On another note, I saw how Klemp can

          make even more money from his image.

          HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

          as though he has a big hole running

          through his head. So, maybe HK could

          have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

          The chain would go through his ears!

          He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

          $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

          will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

          he does with portraits, books, etc.



          Prometheus
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Jay,
            Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
            you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
            been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
            archives), and there are Links and Files,
            also, that show and discuss many of these
            subjects as well. However, the main focus
            of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
            this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
            positioned himself to inherit it and how
            he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
            continue the lies, myth, and the belief
            systems (fear and faith) that all religions
            use. - P.

            Jay wrote:
            Dear Etznab
            >
            I my self am doing similar in studying back
            over the shariyat's to see how much of these
            two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
            me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
            But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
            vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
            at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
            he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
            Then of course there are the number of books
            written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
            on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
            the story on this enigma of a man:
            >
            The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
            of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
            >
            P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
            not actually contain "the whole truth"
            and that much is just a rehash of his
            previous opinions and speculations]
            >
            The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
            >
            P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
            denounced Klemp and his own book about
            his "Mahanta" experiences.]
            >
            Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
            >
            P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
            spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
            who took his place]
            >
            The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
            though the above books have helped move
            on from some of his theories and material,
            but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
            He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
            book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
            just type his name in and you'll find it.
            >
            P: *[David started the ball rolling]
            >
            Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
            to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
            of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
            he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
            to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
            on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
            the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
            set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
            with others..they're quite good.
            >
            Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
            of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
            its on you tube the link is
            >
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
            >
            As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
            girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
            apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
            the website is
            >
            http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html
            >
            Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
            of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
            when kicked out of Eck.
            >
            P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
            Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
            >
            Also as you may know there are a few other off
            shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
            actually can't remember him.. should have book
            marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
            he has his own line of past masters. Another
            guy who will mail you intro material is Master
            Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
            >
            I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
            haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
            I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
            hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
            far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
            perspective of where I may be going next. What
            really makes his insights for us all stand out are
            two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
            in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
            master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
            all the time his students said he was with them
            on the inner planes and how they would praise
            him for his place in their spiritual development,
            he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
            nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
            students on the inner planes...I mean come on
            how profound is this.
            >
            Though we are on the intellectual level only with
            all this talk..it is basic and important though.
            I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
            I've practised the HU chant all this time and
            studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
            of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
            i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
            or ignored the possible science of the brain that
            maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
            to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd
            initiate always told it was my choice, though
            I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
            be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
            >
            >
            P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
            under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
            professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
            you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
            (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
            do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
            >
            >
            I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
            and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
            remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
            >
            Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
            of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
            >
            http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html
            >
            hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
            >
            Jay


            >
            > From: etznab
            >
            > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
            >
            > Prometheus,
            >
            > No. I haven't.
            >
            > The reference to number seven interests me.
            > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
            > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
            > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
            > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
            > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
            > them all. Like, something on another level, so
            > to speak. Examples:
            >
            > p. 156
            >
            > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
            > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
            > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
            > all!"
            >
            > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
            > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
            > not sure. That quote is on the second page
            > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
            > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
            >
            > For some reason, I'm under the impression
            > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
            > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
            > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
            > the same book.
            >
            > p. 195
            >
            > "When I want to show the world my highest
            > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
            > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
            > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
            > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
            > final for he represents my power in the seven
            > lower worlds."
            >
            > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
            > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
            >
            > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
            > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
            > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
            > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
            > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
            > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
            > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
            >
            > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
            >
            > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
            > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
            > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
            > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
            > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
            > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
            > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
            > book would mention this many and then the
            > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
            > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
            > haste, and will have to go back & check the
            > names of the planes for accuracy.)
            >
            > In the next chapter following that one (THE
            > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
            > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
            > of the chapter:
            >
            > p. 197
            >
            > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
            > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
            > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
            > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
            > you will then know for yourself. [....]
            >
            > p. 199
            >
            > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
            > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
            > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
            > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
            > creations throughout the seven spheres."
            >
            > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
            > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
            > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
            > other time mentions seven spheres.
            >
            > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
            > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
            > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
            > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
            >
            > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
            > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
            > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
            > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
            > a total of only seven planets.
            >
            > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
            > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
            > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
            > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
            > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
            > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
            > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
            > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
            > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
            > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
            > was already known to history? How much was in
            > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
            > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
            > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
            > how much of the material had actually come direct
            > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
            > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
            >
            > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
            > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
            > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
            > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
            >
            > Etznab
            >
            >
            > Hello Etznab,
            >
            > You make some good points and have
            >
            > brought up more information to point
            >
            > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
            >
            > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
            >
            > and D.W.T.M. later.
            >
            >
            > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
            >
            > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
            >
            > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
            >
            > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
            >
            > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
            >
            > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
            >
            > overlook this point. And, look at how
            >
            > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
            >
            > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
            >
            > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
            >
            > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
            >
            > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
            >
            > under Klemp's rule(s)!
            >
            >
            > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
            >
            > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
            >
            > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
            >
            > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
            >
            > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
            >
            > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
            >
            > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
            >
            > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
            >
            > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
            >
            > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
            >
            > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
            >
            > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
            >
            > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
            >
            > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
            >
            > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
            >
            > Plane!
            >
            > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
            >
            > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
            >
            > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
            >
            > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
            >
            > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
            >
            > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
            >
          • Jason Mc Dermott
            Hi Prometheus Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y know somewhere to
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Prometheus

              Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y'know somewhere to start..interesting line of inquiry though. Also thanks for the detail on becoming a 5th initiate I never really looked into it though. The sites great with all the files you've put up..great help.

              Thanks again

              Jay




              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 5:02:45
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

              Hello Jay,
              Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
              you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
              been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
              archives), and there are Links and Files,
              also, that show and discuss many of these
              subjects as well. However, the main focus
              of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
              this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
              positioned himself to inherit it and how
              he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
              continue the lies, myth, and the belief
              systems (fear and faith) that all religions
              use. - P.

              Jay wrote:
              Dear Etznab

              >
              I my self am doing similar in studying back
              over the shariyat's to see how much of these
              two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
              me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
              But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
              vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
              at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
              he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
              Then of course there are the number of books
              written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
              on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
              the story on this enigma of a man:
              >
              The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
              of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
              >
              P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
              not actually contain "the whole truth"
              and that much is just a rehash of his
              previous opinions and speculations]
              >
              The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
              >
              P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
              denounced Klemp and his own book about
              his "Mahanta" experiences. ]
              >
              Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
              >
              P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
              spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
              who took his place]
              >
              The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
              though the above books have helped move
              on from some of his theories and material,
              but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
              He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
              book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
              just type his name in and you'll find it.
              >
              P: *[David started the ball rolling]
              >
              Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
              to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
              of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
              he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
              to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
              on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
              the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
              set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
              with others..they' re quite good.
              >
              Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
              of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
              its on you tube the link is
              >
              http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego& feature=related
              >
              As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
              girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
              apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
              the website is
              >
              http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html
              >
              Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
              of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
              when kicked out of Eck.
              >
              P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
              Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
              >
              Also as you may know there are a few other off
              shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
              actually can't remember him.. should have book
              marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
              he has his own line of past masters. Another
              guy who will mail you intro material is Master
              Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
              >
              I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
              haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
              I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
              hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
              far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
              perspective of where I may be going next. What
              really makes his insights for us all stand out are
              two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
              in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
              master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
              all the time his students said he was with them
              on the inner planes and how they would praise
              him for his place in their spiritual development,
              he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
              nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
              students on the inner planes...I mean come on
              how profound is this.
              >
              Though we are on the intellectual level only with
              all this talk..it is basic and important though.
              I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
              I've practised the HU chant all this time and
              studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
              of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
              i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
              or ignored the possible science of the brain that
              maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
              to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd
              initiate always told it was my choice, though
              I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
              be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
              >
              >
              P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
              under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
              professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
              you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
              (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
              do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
              >
              >
              I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
              and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
              remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
              >
              Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
              of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
              >
              http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html
              >
              hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
              >
              Jay


              >
              > From: etznab
              >
              > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
              >
              > Prometheus,
              >
              > No. I haven't.
              >
              > The reference to number seven interests me.
              > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
              > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
              > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
              > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
              > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
              > them all. Like, something on another level, so
              > to speak. Examples:
              >
              > p. 156
              >
              > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
              > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
              > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
              > all!"
              >
              > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
              > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
              > not sure. That quote is on the second page
              > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
              > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
              >
              > For some reason, I'm under the impression
              > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
              > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
              > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
              > the same book.
              >
              > p. 195
              >
              > "When I want to show the world my highest
              > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
              > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
              > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
              > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
              > final for he represents my power in the seven
              > lower worlds."
              >
              > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
              > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
              >
              > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
              > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
              > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
              > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
              > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
              > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
              > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
              >
              > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
              >
              > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
              > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
              > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
              > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
              > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
              > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
              > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
              > book would mention this many and then the
              > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
              > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
              > haste, and will have to go back & check the
              > names of the planes for accuracy.)
              >
              > In the next chapter following that one (THE
              > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
              > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
              > of the chapter:
              >
              > p. 197
              >
              > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
              > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
              > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
              > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
              > you will then know for yourself. [....]
              >
              > p. 199
              >
              > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
              > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
              > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
              > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
              > creations throughout the seven spheres."
              >
              > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
              > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
              > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
              > other time mentions seven spheres.
              >
              > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
              > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
              > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
              > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
              >
              > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
              > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
              > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
              > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
              > a total of only seven planets.
              >
              > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
              > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
              > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
              > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
              > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
              > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
              > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
              > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
              > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
              > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
              > was already known to history? How much was in
              > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
              > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
              > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
              > how much of the material had actually come direct
              > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
              > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
              >
              > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
              > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
              > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
              > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              >
              > Hello Etznab,
              >
              > You make some good points and have
              >
              > brought up more information to point
              >
              > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
              >
              > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
              >
              > and D.W.T.M. later.
              >
              >
              > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
              >
              > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
              >
              > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
              >
              > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
              >
              > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
              >
              > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
              >
              > overlook this point. And, look at how
              >
              > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
              >
              > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
              >
              > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
              >
              > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
              >
              > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
              >
              > under Klemp's rule(s)!
              >
              >
              > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
              >
              > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
              >
              > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
              >
              > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
              >
              > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
              >
              > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
              >
              > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
              >
              > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
              >
              > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
              >
              > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
              >
              > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
              >
              > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
              >
              > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
              >
              > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
              >
              > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
              >
              > Plane!
              >
              > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
              >
              > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
              >
              > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
              >
              > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
              >
              > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
              >
              > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
              >


              Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
            • Jason Mc Dermott
              Dear Etznab Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I ve just come
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Etznab

                 Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson features it as part of his hypothesis as us having multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher Consciousness Society website. You'll find them by clicking on the classes button and then the audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to them in order as not to get confused of what's being discussed and explained by Johnson,the particular section of Over soul seven and Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                g'luk

                Jay


                From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 15:03:04
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                Dear Etznab

                I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                           The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                            Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

                Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they' re quite good.

                Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
                As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

                 Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

                I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

                Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

                I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

                Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html

                hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

                Jay




                From: "etznab@aol. com" <etznab@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                Prometheus,

                No. I haven't.

                The reference to number seven interests me.
                Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                them all. Like, something on another level, so
                to speak. Examples:

                p. 156

                "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                all!"

                [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                not sure. That quote is on the second page
                of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                For some reason, I'm under the impression
                that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                the same book.

                p. 195

                "When I want to show the world my highest
                grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                final for he represents my power in the seven
                lower worlds."

                [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                book would mention this many and then the
                1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                haste, and will have to go back & check the
                names of the planes for accuracy.)

                In the next chapter following that one (THE
                SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                of the chapter:

                p. 197

                Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                you will then know for yourself. [....]

                p. 199

                "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                creations throughout the seven spheres."

                Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                other time mentions seven spheres.

                It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                a total of only seven planets.

                As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                was already known to history? How much was in
                the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                how much of the material had actually come direct
                from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                Etznab

                -----Original Message-----
                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                "Body"

                Hello Etznab,

                You make some good points and have

                brought up more information to point

                out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                and D.W.T.M. later.

                It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                overlook this point. And, look at how

                many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                D

                Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                under Klemp's rule(s)!

                BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

                become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                Prometheus

                p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                Plane!

                Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                Etznab wrote:

                I would like to know the difference between

                Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

                The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                D

                Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                This is something I've been contemplating

                for some time: What is different with the two

                types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                about this subject).

                There's another thing on this subject, and it

                has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                any of the other lower world bodies where there

                are many different ones - including the physical

                body.

                So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                Something like another dimension.

                Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                the Living Eck Master become so important?

                Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                understanding is that the astral body is limited

                to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                it reads like that was his first vis
                it. However, in

                the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                already!

                ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

                only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                Fang account and the year 1957.

                ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                I wonder, were those two different books, the

                two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                experience?

                BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                I've
                decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                books and read from the beginning, looking at

                how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                had escaped me up until now.

                Etznab

                HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                teach and other "believers" experience!

                Prometheus

                Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                Hello All,

                It was bad enough that HK sold

                his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                0D

                But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                The truth has (once again) been

                embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                no doubt, likes this rendition because

                it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                this drawing looks more "sketch"

                like than portrait like!

                What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                a more modern, shaved look, and

                does not appear as thin as it really

                is (the inside portion of his ear is

                different too).

                When looking at the front cover photo,

                of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                World of ECKankar" we can see that

                Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                makes Klemp look younger.

                The question ECKists should be asking is,

                Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                rather than having an Astral Plane image!

                I think it's funny that Klemp names

                this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                a "true friend" say such nasty
                and mean

                things to you? These RESAs and other

                H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                now they see that there are strings

                attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                ship.

                BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                himself, or give it to you... free of

                charge? Hmmmmmm.

                On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                make even more money from his image.

                HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                as though he has a big hole running

                through his head. So, maybe HK could

                have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                The chain would go through his ears!

                He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                he does with portraits, books, etc.

                Prometheus


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              • prometheus_973
                Hello Jay, Etznab, and All, Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it s fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that this is
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                  Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                  fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                  that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                  this is similar to beating a dead horse
                  when sorting out the truth from all the
                  crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                  distracted from the current, now, happenings
                  under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                  Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                  He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                  the hook via his distractions involving
                  Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                  avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                  PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                  the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                  in order to confuse the issue.

                  Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                  but became more and more insane over
                  time. And, look at those "creative" people
                  in business who have scammed thousands
                  of individuals out of their life savings! They
                  even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                  foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                  Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                  expected from a person who paid to be
                  included in "The International Who's Who
                  of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                  why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                  "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                  themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                  Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                  redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                  historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                  EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                  with their current views of society and how
                  it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                  are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                  Masters?

                  BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                  a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                  a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                  actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                  truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                  much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                  Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                  "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                  that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                  as well!

                  As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                  it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                  With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                  said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                  or any other EK Master!

                  FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                  This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                  "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                  the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                  the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                  about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                  to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                  looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                  happens because asking too many questions shows
                  spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                  in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                  comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                  answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                  the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                  This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                  works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                  or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                  within the Satsang Society.

                  Prometheus

                  Jay wrote:

                  Dear Etznab

                  Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                  its a fictional piece based on the well known
                  metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                  I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                  features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                  multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                  in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                  Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                  by clicking on the classes button and then the
                  audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                  them in order as not to get confused of what's
                  being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                  the particular section of Over soul seven and
                  Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                  g'luk

                  Jay

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                  >
                  >

                  Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                  >
                  Etznab,
                  Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                  >
                  Prometheus,

                  Etznab wrote:
                  > No. I haven't.
                  >
                  > The reference to number seven interests me.
                  > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                  > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                  > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                  > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                  > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                  > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                  > to speak. Examples:
                  >
                  > p. 156
                  >
                  > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                  > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                  > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                  > all!"
                  >
                  > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                  > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                  > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                  > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                  > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                  >
                  > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                  > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                  > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                  > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                  > the same book.
                  >
                  > p. 195
                  >
                  > "When I want to show the world my highest
                  > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                  > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                  > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                  > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                  > final for he represents my power in the seven
                  > lower worlds."
                  >
                  > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                  > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                  >
                  > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                  > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                  > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                  > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                  > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                  > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                  > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                  >
                  > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                  >
                  > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                  > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                  > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                  > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                  > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                  > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                  > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                  > book would mention this many and then the
                  > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                  > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                  > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                  > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                  >
                  > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                  > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                  > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                  > of the chapter:
                  >
                  > p. 197
                  >
                  > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                  > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                  > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                  > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                  > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                  >
                  > p. 199
                  >
                  > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                  > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                  > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                  > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                  > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                  >
                  > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                  > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                  > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                  > other time mentions seven spheres.
                  >
                  > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                  > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                  > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                  > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                  >
                  > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                  > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                  > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                  > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                  > a total of only seven planets.
                  >
                  > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                  > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                  > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                  > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                  > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                  > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                  > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                  > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                  > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                  > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                  > was already known to history? How much was in
                  > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                  > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                  > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                  > how much of the material had actually come direct
                  > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                  > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                  >
                  > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                  > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                  > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                  > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                  > "Body"
                  >
                  > Hello Etznab,
                  >
                  > You make some good points and have
                  >
                  > brought up more information to point
                  >
                  > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                  >
                  > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                  >
                  > and D.W.T.M. later.
                  >
                  > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                  >
                  > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                  >
                  > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                  >
                  > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                  >
                  > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                  >
                  > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                  >
                  > overlook this point. And, look at how
                  >
                  > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                  >
                  > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                  >
                  > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                  >
                  > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                  > D
                  >
                  > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                  >
                  > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                  >
                  > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                  >
                  > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                  >
                  > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                  >
                  > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                  >
                  > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                  >
                  > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                  >
                  > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                  >
                  > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                  >
                  > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                  >
                  > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                  >
                  > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                  >
                  > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                  >
                  > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                  >
                  > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                  >
                  > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                  >
                  > Plane!
                  >
                  > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                  >
                  > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                  >
                  > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                  >
                  > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                  >
                  > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                  >
                  > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                  >
                  > Etznab wrote:
                  >
                  > I would like to know the difference between
                  >
                  > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                  >
                  > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                  >
                  > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                  >
                  > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                  >
                  > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                  > D
                  >
                  > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                  >
                  > This is something I've been contemplating
                  >
                  > for some time: What is different with the two
                  >
                  > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                  >
                  > about this subject).
                  >
                  > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                  >
                  > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                  >
                  > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                  >
                  > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                  >
                  > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                  >
                  > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                  >
                  > are many different ones - including the physical
                  >
                  > body.
                  >
                  > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                  >
                  > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                  >
                  > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                  >
                  > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                  >
                  > Something like another dimension.
                  >
                  > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                  >
                  > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                  >
                  > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                  >
                  > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                  >
                  > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                  >
                  > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                  >
                  > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                  >
                  > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                  >
                  > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                  >
                  > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                  >
                  > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                  >
                  > it reads like that was his first vis
                  > it. However, in
                  >
                  > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                  >
                  > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                  >
                  > already!
                  >
                  > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                  >
                  > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                  >
                  > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                  >
                  > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                  >
                  > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                  >
                  > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                  >
                  > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                  >
                  > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                  >
                  > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                  >
                  > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                  >
                  > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                  >
                  > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                  >
                  > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                  >
                  > Fang account and the year 1957.
                  >
                  > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                  >
                  > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                  >
                  > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                  >
                  > experience?
                  >
                  > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                  >
                  > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                  >
                  > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                  >
                  > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                  >
                  > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                  >
                  > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                  >
                  > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                  >
                  > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                  >
                  > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                  >
                  > I've
                  > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                  >
                  > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                  >
                  > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                  >
                  > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                  >
                  > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                  >
                  > had escaped me up until now.
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                  > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                  >
                  > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                  >
                  > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                  >
                  > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                  >
                  > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                  >
                  > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                  >
                  > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                  >
                  > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                  >
                  > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                  >
                  > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                  >
                  > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                  >
                  > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                  >
                  > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                  >
                  > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                  >
                  > teach and other "believers" experience!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  >
                  > It was bad enough that HK sold
                  >
                  > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                  >
                  > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                  >
                  > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                  > 0D
                  >
                  > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                  >
                  > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                  >
                  > The truth has (once again) been
                  >
                  > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                  >
                  > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                  >
                  > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                  >
                  > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                  >
                  > like than portrait like!
                  >
                  > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                  >
                  > a more modern, shaved look, and
                  >
                  > does not appear as thin as it really
                  >
                  > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                  >
                  > different too).
                  >
                  > When looking at the front cover photo,
                  >
                  > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                  >
                  > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                  >
                  > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                  >
                  > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                  >
                  > makes Klemp look younger.
                  >
                  > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                  >
                  > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                  >
                  > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                  >
                  > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                  >
                  > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                  >
                  > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                  >
                  > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                  >
                  > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                  >
                  > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                  >
                  > a "true friend" say such nasty
                  > and mean
                  >
                  > things to you? These RESAs and other
                  >
                  > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                  >
                  > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                  >
                  > now they see that there are strings
                  >
                  > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                  >
                  > ship.
                  >
                  > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                  >
                  > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                  >
                  > himself, or give it to you... free of
                  >
                  > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                  >
                  > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                  >
                  > make even more money from his image.
                  >
                  > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                  >
                  > as though he has a big hole running
                  >
                  > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                  >
                  > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                  >
                  > The chain would go through his ears!
                  >
                  > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                  >
                  > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                  >
                  > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                  >
                  > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                  >
                • Jason Mc Dermott
                  Hi Prometheus Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT s or HK s stuff being that
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Prometheus

                    Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.

                    Jay


                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                    Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                    Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                    fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                    that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                    this is similar to beating a dead horse
                    when sorting out the truth from all the
                    crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                    distracted from the current, now, happenings
                    under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                    Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                    He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                    the hook via his distractions involving
                    Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                    avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                    PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                    the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                    in order to confuse the issue.

                    Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                    but became more and more insane over
                    time. And, look at those "creative" people
                    in business who have scammed thousands
                    of individuals out of their life savings! They
                    even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                    foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                    Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                    expected from a person who paid to be
                    included in "The International Who's Who
                    of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                    why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                    "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                    themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                    Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                    redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                    historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                    EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                    with their current views of society and how
                    it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                    are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                    Masters?

                    BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                    a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                    a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                    actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                    truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                    much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                    Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                    "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                    that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                    as well!

                    As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                    it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                    With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                    said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                    or any other EK Master!

                    FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                    This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                    "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                    the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                    the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                    about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                    to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                    looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                    happens because asking too many questions shows
                    spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                    in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                    comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                    answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                    the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                    This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                    works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                    or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                    within the Satsang Society.

                    Prometheus

                    Jay wrote:

                    Dear Etznab

                    Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                    its a fictional piece based on the well known
                    metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                    I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                    features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                    multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                    in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                    Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                    by clicking on the classes button and then the
                    audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                    them in order as not to get confused of what's
                    being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                    the particular section of Over soul seven and
                    Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                    g'luk

                    Jay

                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ____________ _________ _________ __
                    > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>

                    >
                    >

                    Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                    >
                    Etznab,
                    Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                    >
                    Prometheus,

                    Etznab wrote:
                    > No. I haven't.
                    >
                    > The reference to number seven interests me.
                    > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                    > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                    > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                    > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                    > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                    > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                    > to speak. Examples:
                    >
                    > p. 156
                    >
                    > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                    > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                    > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                    > all!"
                    >
                    > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                    > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                    > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                    > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                    > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                    >
                    > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                    > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                    > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                    > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                    > the same book.
                    >
                    > p. 195
                    >
                    > "When I want to show the world my highest
                    > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                    > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                    > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                    > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                    > final for he represents my power in the seven
                    > lower worlds."
                    >
                    > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                    > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                    >
                    > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                    > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                    > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                    > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                    > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                    > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                    > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                    >
                    > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                    >
                    > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                    > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                    > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                    > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                    > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                    > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                    > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                    > book would mention this many and then the
                    > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                    > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                    > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                    > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                    >
                    > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                    > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                    > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                    > of the chapter:
                    >
                    > p. 197
                    >
                    > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                    > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                    > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                    > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                    > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                    >
                    > p. 199
                    >
                    > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                    > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                    > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                    > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                    > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                    >
                    > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                    > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                    > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                    > other time mentions seven spheres.
                    >
                    > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                    > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                    > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                    > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                    >
                    > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                    > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                    > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                    > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                    > a total of only seven planets.
                    >
                    > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                    > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                    > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                    > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                    > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                    > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                    > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                    > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                    > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                    > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                    > was already known to history? How much was in
                    > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                    > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                    > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                    > how much of the material had actually come direct
                    > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                    > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                    >
                    > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                    > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                    > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                    > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                    >
                    > Etznab
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                    > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                    > "Body"
                    >
                    > Hello Etznab,
                    >
                    > You make some good points and have
                    >
                    > brought up more information to point
                    >
                    > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                    >
                    > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                    >
                    > and D.W.T.M. later.
                    >
                    > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                    >
                    > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                    >
                    > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                    >
                    > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                    >
                    > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                    >
                    > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                    >
                    > overlook this point. And, look at how
                    >
                    > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                    >
                    > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                    >
                    > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                    >
                    > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                    > D
                    >
                    > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                    >
                    > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                    >
                    > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                    >
                    > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                    >
                    > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                    >
                    > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                    >
                    > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                    >
                    > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                    >
                    > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                    >
                    > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                    >
                    > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                    >
                    > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                    >
                    > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                    >
                    > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                    >
                    > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                    >
                    > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                    >
                    > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                    >
                    > Plane!
                    >
                    > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                    >
                    > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                    >
                    > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                    >
                    > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                    >
                    > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                    >
                    > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                    >
                    > Etznab wrote:
                    >
                    > I would like to know the difference between
                    >
                    > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                    >
                    > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                    >
                    > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                    >
                    > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                    >
                    > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                    > D
                    >
                    > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                    >
                    > This is something I've been contemplating
                    >
                    > for some time: What is different with the two
                    >
                    > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                    >
                    > about this subject).
                    >
                    > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                    >
                    > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                    >
                    > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                    >
                    > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                    >
                    > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                    >
                    > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                    >
                    > are many different ones - including the physical
                    >
                    > body.
                    >
                    > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                    >
                    > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                    >
                    > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                    >
                    > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                    >
                    > Something like another dimension.
                    >
                    > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                    >
                    > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                    >
                    > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                    >
                    > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                    >
                    > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                    >
                    > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                    >
                    > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                    >
                    > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                    >
                    > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                    >
                    > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                    >
                    > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                    >
                    > it reads like that was his first vis
                    > it. However, in
                    >
                    > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                    >
                    > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                    >
                    > already!
                    >
                    > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                    >
                    > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                    >
                    > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                    >
                    > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                    >
                    > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                    >
                    > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                    >
                    > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                    >
                    > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                    >
                    > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                    >
                    > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                    >
                    > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                    >
                    > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                    >
                    > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                    >
                    > Fang account and the year 1957.
                    >
                    > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                    >
                    > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                    >
                    > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                    >
                    > experience?
                    >
                    > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                    >
                    > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                    >
                    > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                    >
                    > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                    >
                    > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                    >
                    > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                    >
                    > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                    >
                    > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                    >
                    > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                    >
                    > I've
                    > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                    >
                    > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                    >
                    > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                    >
                    > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                    >
                    > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                    >
                    > had escaped me up until now.
                    >
                    > Etznab
                    >
                    > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                    >
                    > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                    >
                    > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                    >
                    > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                    >
                    > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                    >
                    > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                    >
                    > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                    >
                    > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                    >
                    > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                    >
                    > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                    >
                    > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                    >
                    > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                    >
                    > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                    >
                    > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                    >
                    > teach and other "believers" experience!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    >
                    > It was bad enough that HK sold
                    >
                    > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                    >
                    > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                    >
                    > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                    > 0D
                    >
                    > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                    >
                    > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                    >
                    > The truth has (once again) been
                    >
                    > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                    >
                    > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                    >
                    > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                    >
                    > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                    >
                    > like than portrait like!
                    >
                    > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                    >
                    > a more modern, shaved look, and
                    >
                    > does not appear as thin as it really
                    >
                    > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                    >
                    > different too).
                    >
                    > When looking at the front cover photo,
                    >
                    > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                    >
                    > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                    >
                    > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                    >
                    > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                    >
                    > makes Klemp look younger.
                    >
                    > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                    >
                    > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                    >
                    > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                    >
                    > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                    >
                    > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                    >
                    > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                    >
                    > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                    >
                    > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                    >
                    > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                    >
                    > a "true friend" say such nasty
                    > and mean
                    >
                    > things to you? These RESAs and other
                    >
                    > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                    >
                    > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                    >
                    > now they see that there are strings
                    >
                    > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                    >
                    > ship.
                    >
                    > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                    >
                    > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                    >
                    > himself, or give it to you... free of
                    >
                    > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                    >
                    > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                    >
                    > make even more money from his image.
                    >
                    > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                    >
                    > as though he has a big hole running
                    >
                    > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                    >
                    > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                    >
                    > The chain would go through his ears!
                    >
                    > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                    >
                    > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                    >
                    > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                    >
                    > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                    >
                    >
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                  • noneckster
                    RESPONDING TO THE THREAD: I think it s worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
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                      RESPONDING TO THE THREAD:

                      I think it's worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very core. To reread eck books hoping to get some wisdom is foolish imo. It's like drinking Koolaide that tastes like a sugary drink, but may be tainted with poison. : ) Current eckists are just willfully ignorant. There really isn't much of an excuse for their behavior, at this point. If Iranians can communicate and find out information via the internet and cell phone, then access in other Democracies around the world is a click away. Those practicing eckist of today are simply CHOOSING to not know all the facts.

                      Before the internet I could understand how it was easier to get duped, conned. The past is the past, for sure, but to not know the past, of course, is to increase the likelihood of repeating it. The study of bad cultic and religious practices is a very important activity IMO.

                      Non eckster ; )

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Prometheus
                      >
                      > Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.
                      >
                      > Jay
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                      > Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                      > fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                      > that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                      > this is similar to beating a dead horse
                      > when sorting out the truth from all the
                      > crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                      > distracted from the current, now, happenings
                      > under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.
                      >
                      > Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                      > He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                      > the hook via his distractions involving
                      > Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                      > avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                      > PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                      > the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                      > in order to confuse the issue.
                      >
                      > Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                      > but became more and more insane over
                      > time. And, look at those "creative" people
                      > in business who have scammed thousands
                      > of individuals out of their life savings! They
                      > even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                      > foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                      > Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                      > expected from a person who paid to be
                      > included in "The International Who's Who
                      > of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                      > why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                      > "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                      > themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                      > Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                      > redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                      > historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                      > EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                      > with their current views of society and how
                      > it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                      > are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                      > Masters?
                      >
                      > BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                      > a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                      > a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                      > actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                      > truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                      > much closer to Fiction than to "truth."
                      >
                      > Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                      > "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                      > that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                      > as well!
                      >
                      > As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                      > it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                      > With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                      > said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                      > or any other EK Master!
                      >
                      > FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                      > This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                      > "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                      > the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                      > the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                      > about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                      > to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                      > looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                      > happens because asking too many questions shows
                      > spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                      > in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                      > comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                      > answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                      > the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                      > This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                      > works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                      > or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                      > within the Satsang Society.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > Jay wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Etznab
                      >
                      > Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                      > its a fictional piece based on the well known
                      > metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                      > I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                      > features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                      > multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                      > in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                      > Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                      > by clicking on the classes button and then the
                      > audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                      > them in order as not to get confused of what's
                      > being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                      > the particular section of Over soul seven and
                      > Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.
                      >
                      > g'luk
                      >
                      > Jay
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                      > > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                      > >
                      > Etznab,
                      > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                      > >
                      > Prometheus,
                      >
                      > Etznab wrote:
                      > > No. I haven't.
                      > >
                      > > The reference to number seven interests me.
                      > > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                      > > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                      > > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                      > > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                      > > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                      > > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                      > > to speak. Examples:
                      > >
                      > > p. 156
                      > >
                      > > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                      > > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                      > > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                      > > all!"
                      > >
                      > > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                      > > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                      > > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                      > > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                      > > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                      > >
                      > > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                      > > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                      > > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                      > > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                      > > the same book.
                      > >
                      > > p. 195
                      > >
                      > > "When I want to show the world my highest
                      > > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                      > > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                      > > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                      > > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                      > > final for he represents my power in the seven
                      > > lower worlds."
                      > >
                      > > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                      > > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                      > >
                      > > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                      > > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                      > > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                      > > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                      > > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                      > > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                      > > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                      > >
                      > > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                      > >
                      > > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                      > > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                      > > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                      > > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                      > > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                      > > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                      > > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                      > > book would mention this many and then the
                      > > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                      > > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                      > > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                      > > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                      > >
                      > > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                      > > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                      > > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                      > > of the chapter:
                      > >
                      > > p. 197
                      > >
                      > > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                      > > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                      > > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                      > > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                      > > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                      > >
                      > > p. 199
                      > >
                      > > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                      > > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                      > > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                      > > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                      > > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                      > >
                      > > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                      > > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                      > > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                      > > other time mentions seven spheres.
                      > >
                      > > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                      > > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                      > > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                      > > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                      > >
                      > > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                      > > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                      > > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                      > > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                      > > a total of only seven planets.
                      > >
                      > > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                      > > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                      > > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                      > > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                      > > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                      > > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                      > > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                      > > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                      > > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                      > > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                      > > was already known to history? How much was in
                      > > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                      > > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                      > > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                      > > how much of the material had actually come direct
                      > > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                      > > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                      > >
                      > > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                      > > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                      > > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                      > > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                      > >
                      > > Etznab
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                      > > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                      > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                      > > "Body"
                      > >
                      > > Hello Etznab,
                      > >
                      > > You make some good points and have
                      > >
                      > > brought up more information to point
                      > >
                      > > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                      > >
                      > > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                      > >
                      > > and D.W.T.M. later.
                      > >
                      > > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                      > >
                      > > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                      > >
                      > > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                      > >
                      > > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                      > >
                      > > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                      > >
                      > > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                      > >
                      > > overlook this point. And, look at how
                      > >
                      > > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                      > >
                      > > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                      > >
                      > > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                      > >
                      > > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                      > > D
                      > >
                      > > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                      > >
                      > > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                      > >
                      > > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                      > >
                      > > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                      > >
                      > > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                      > >
                      > > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                      > >
                      > > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                      > >
                      > > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                      > >
                      > > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                      > >
                      > > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                      > >
                      > > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                      > >
                      > > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                      > >
                      > > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                      > >
                      > > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                      > >
                      > > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                      > >
                      > > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                      > >
                      > > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                      > >
                      > > Plane!
                      > >
                      > > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                      > >
                      > > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                      > >
                      > > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                      > >
                      > > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                      > >
                      > > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                      > >
                      > > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                      > >
                      > > Etznab wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I would like to know the difference between
                      > >
                      > > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                      > >
                      > > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                      > >
                      > > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                      > >
                      > > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                      > >
                      > > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                      > > D
                      > >
                      > > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                      > >
                      > > This is something I've been contemplating
                      > >
                      > > for some time: What is different with the two
                      > >
                      > > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                      > >
                      > > about this subject).
                      > >
                      > > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                      > >
                      > > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                      > >
                      > > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                      > >
                      > > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                      > >
                      > > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                      > >
                      > > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                      > >
                      > > are many different ones - including the physical
                      > >
                      > > body.
                      > >
                      > > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                      > >
                      > > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                      > >
                      > > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                      > >
                      > > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                      > >
                      > > Something like another dimension.
                      > >
                      > > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                      > >
                      > > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                      > >
                      > > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                      > >
                      > > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                      > >
                      > > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                      > >
                      > > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                      > >
                      > > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                      > >
                      > > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                      > >
                      > > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                      > >
                      > > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                      > >
                      > > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                      > >
                      > > it reads like that was his first vis
                      > > it. However, in
                      > >
                      > > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                      > >
                      > > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                      > >
                      > > already!
                      > >
                      > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                      > >
                      > > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                      > >
                      > > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                      > >
                      > > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                      > >
                      > > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                      > >
                      > > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                      > >
                      > > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                      > >
                      > > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                      > >
                      > > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                      > >
                      > > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                      > >
                      > > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                      > >
                      > > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                      > >
                      > > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                      > >
                      > > Fang account and the year 1957.
                      > >
                      > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                      > >
                      > > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                      > >
                      > > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                      > >
                      > > experience?
                      > >
                      > > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                      > >
                      > > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                      > >
                      > > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                      > >
                      > > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                      > >
                      > > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                      > >
                      > > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                      > >
                      > > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                      > >
                      > > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                      > >
                      > > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                      > >
                      > > I've
                      > > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                      > >
                      > > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                      > >
                      > > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                      > >
                      > > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                      > >
                      > > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                      > >
                      > > had escaped me up until now.
                      > >
                      > > Etznab
                      > >
                      > > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                      > >
                      > > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                      > >
                      > > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                      > >
                      > > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                      > >
                      > > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                      > >
                      > > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                      > >
                      > > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                      > >
                      > > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                      > >
                      > > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                      > >
                      > > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                      > >
                      > > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                      > >
                      > > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                      > >
                      > > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                      > >
                      > > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                      > >
                      > > teach and other "believers" experience!
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                      > >
                      > > Hello All,
                      > >
                      > > It was bad enough that HK sold
                      > >
                      > > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                      > >
                      > > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                      > >
                      > > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                      > > 0D
                      > >
                      > > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                      > >
                      > > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                      > >
                      > > The truth has (once again) been
                      > >
                      > > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                      > >
                      > > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                      > >
                      > > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                      > >
                      > > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                      > >
                      > > like than portrait like!
                      > >
                      > > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                      > >
                      > > a more modern, shaved look, and
                      > >
                      > > does not appear as thin as it really
                      > >
                      > > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                      > >
                      > > different too).
                      > >
                      > > When looking at the front cover photo,
                      > >
                      > > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                      > >
                      > > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                      > >
                      > > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                      > >
                      > > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                      > >
                      > > makes Klemp look younger.
                      > >
                      > > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                      > >
                      > > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                      > >
                      > > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                      > >
                      > > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                      > >
                      > > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                      > >
                      > > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                      > >
                      > > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                      > >
                      > > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                      > >
                      > > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                      > >
                      > > a "true friend" say such nasty
                      > > and mean
                      > >
                      > > things to you? These RESAs and other
                      > >
                      > > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                      > >
                      > > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                      > >
                      > > now they see that there are strings
                      > >
                      > > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                      > >
                      > > ship.
                      > >
                      > > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                      > >
                      > > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                      > >
                      > > himself, or give it to you... free of
                      > >
                      > > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                      > >
                      > > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                      > >
                      > > make even more money from his image.
                      > >
                      > > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                      > >
                      > > as though he has a big hole running
                      > >
                      > > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                      > >
                      > > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                      > >
                      > > The chain would go through his ears!
                      > >
                      > > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                      > >
                      > > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                      > >
                      > > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                      > >
                      > > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Jay and All, Marman is connected to Klemp because he is an EKist (7th Initiate) and claims to be a long-time friend of HK s. Marman (Doug) is an
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello Jay and All,
                        Marman is connected to Klemp
                        because he is an EKist (7th Initiate)
                        and claims to be a long-time friend
                        of HK's. Marman (Doug) is an apologist
                        for both Klemp and PT, and has a
                        following from an EK fringe group.
                        Just read some of DM's older dialogue
                        and arguments, especially, with David
                        Lane. Steve Runfeldt (EK Internet PR
                        Guru) is another EK apologist who, also,
                        rates a D- when debating (online) with
                        David Lane.

                        BTW- I think that I first read Jane Roberts'
                        books in the early 1970's and once was
                        tempted to stop by for a short visit with
                        her and her husband in Binghamton (since
                        I was passing through at the time). But,
                        my passenger didn't want to stop. I got
                        the impression from reading her books
                        that writing, for Jane, was like a form of
                        therapy that helped to give her some sort
                        of balance, peace of mind, and meaning
                        for her life that helped it all to make sense.
                        From her descriptions, about herself, she
                        came across as having a lot of nervous
                        energy and smoking her cigarettes seemed
                        to calm her. 8th Initiate Millie (Workman)
                        Moore was much the same, but used the
                        spoken word versus the written word.

                        BTW-What do you think about Marman's
                        TS comments about Rebazar and the Holocaust
                        "probably" being myth?

                        Prometheus


                        Jay wrote:

                        Hi Prometheus

                        Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word
                        but how is Marman connected with HK?..and
                        yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                        being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over
                        7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence
                        of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth
                        stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab
                        had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking
                        back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past
                        is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the
                        present.

                        Jay

                        From: prometheus
                        Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                        Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                        Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                        fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                        that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                        this is similar to beating a dead horse
                        when sorting out the truth from all the
                        crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                        distracted from the current, now, happenings
                        under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                        Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                        He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                        the hook via his distractions involving
                        Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                        avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                        PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                        the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                        in order to confuse the issue.

                        Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                        but became more and more insane over
                        time. And, look at those "creative" people
                        in business who have scammed thousands
                        of individuals out of their life savings! They
                        even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                        foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                        Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                        expected from a person who paid to be
                        included in "The International Who's Who
                        of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                        why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                        "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                        themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                        Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                        redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                        historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                        EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                        with their current views of society and how
                        it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                        are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                        Masters?

                        BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                        a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                        a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                        actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                        truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                        much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                        Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                        "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                        that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                        as well!

                        As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                        it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                        With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                        said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                        or any other EK Master!

                        FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                        This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                        "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                        the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                        the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                        about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                        to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                        looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                        happens because asking too many questions shows
                        spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                        in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                        comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                        answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                        the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                        This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                        works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                        or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                        within the Satsang Society.

                        Prometheus

                        Jay wrote:

                        Dear Etznab

                        Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                        its a fictional piece based on the well known
                        metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                        I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                        features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                        multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                        in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                        Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                        by clicking on the classes button and then the
                        audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                        them in order as not to get confused of what's
                        being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                        the particular section of Over soul seven and
                        Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                        g'luk

                        Jay

                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________ _________ _________ __
                        > From: Jason

                        >
                        >

                        Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                        >
                        Etznab,
                        Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                        >
                        Prometheus,

                        Etznab wrote:
                        > No. I haven't.
                        >
                        > The reference to number seven interests me.
                        > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                        > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                        > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                        > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                        > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                        > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                        > to speak. Examples:
                        >
                        > p. 156
                        >
                        > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                        > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                        > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                        > all!"
                        >
                        > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                        > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                        > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                        > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                        > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                        >
                        > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                        > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                        > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                        > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                        > the same book.
                        >
                        > p. 195
                        >
                        > "When I want to show the world my highest
                        > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                        > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                        > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                        > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                        > final for he represents my power in the seven
                        > lower worlds."
                        >
                        > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                        > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                        >
                        > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                        > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                        > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                        > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                        > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                        > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                        > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                        >
                        > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                        >
                        > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                        > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                        > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                        > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                        > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                        > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                        > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                        > book would mention this many and then the
                        > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                        > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                        > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                        > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                        >
                        > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                        > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                        > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                        > of the chapter:
                        >
                        > p. 197
                        >
                        > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                        > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                        > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                        > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                        > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                        >
                        > p. 199
                        >
                        > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                        > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                        > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                        > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                        > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                        >
                        > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                        > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                        > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                        > other time mentions seven spheres.
                        >
                        > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                        > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                        > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                        > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                        >
                        > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                        > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                        > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                        > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                        > a total of only seven planets.
                        >
                        > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                        > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                        > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                        > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                        > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                        > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                        > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                        > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                        > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                        > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                        > was already known to history? How much was in
                        > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                        > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                        > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                        > how much of the material had actually come direct
                        > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                        > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                        >
                        > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                        > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                        > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                        > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        I m not so sure the past is a dead horse . In fact, I would call it very much alive and is the basis for many people s present & future beliefs about numerous
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".
                          In fact, I would call it very much alive and is
                          the basis for many people's present & future
                          beliefs about numerous things.

                          Going back and clarifying the past is what
                          I am seeking to do, by isolating the context
                          of those many stories I have read and heard
                          told in Eckankar books and discussions.

                          This is something I've been wanting to do
                          for a long time. Establish the "context". For
                          example, What is the literal truth and what
                          is not?

                          Here is why I think this important. When I
                          can prove beyond a doubt that something is
                          fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that
                          regard. It's power over me would not be the
                          same, not have the same influence & power
                          over my belief system and psyche as some-
                          thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With
                          myth and fiction - knowing a source is that -
                          it leaves me with the liberty to explore further
                          and to learn how the story came about in the
                          first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the
                          people who take pseudo religion and history
                          to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.
                          I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &
                          infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my
                          conscience, living with the thought I am know-
                          ingly spreading fact for fiction.

                          BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.
                          I'm just now getting around to reading mail.

                          Etznab





                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                          Soul "Body"








                          Hi Prometheus

                          Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman
                          connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                          being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just
                          mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane
                          Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had
                          in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a
                          dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk
                          in the present.

                          Jay

                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                          "Body"













                          Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,

                          Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's

                          fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam

                          that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that

                          this is similar to beating a dead horse

                          when sorting out the truth from all the

                          crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be

                          distracted from the current, now, happenings

                          under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.


                          =0
                          A
                          Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.

                          He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off

                          the hook via his distractions involving

                          Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,

                          avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon

                          PT's "creative writing" by manipulating

                          the lies and myth that Twitchell created

                          in order to confuse the issue.



                          Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,

                          but became more and more insane over

                          time. And, look at those "creative" people

                          in business who have scammed thousands

                          of individuals out of their life savings! They

                          even scammed hospitals and non-profit

                          foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!

                          Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's

                          expected from a person who paid to be

                          included in "The International Who's Who

                          of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,

                          why do EKists need Klemp when they can

                          "create" their own reality/destiny and make

                          themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a

                          Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is

                          redundant and lives in the past by quoting

                          historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote

                          EK Masters, still living in a physical body,

                          with their current views of society and how

                          it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where

                          are these relevant "insights" from these EK

                          Masters?



                          BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote

                          a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes

                          a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,

                          actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real

                          truth about Marman's book is that it comes

                          much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                          Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that

                          "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and

                          that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"

                          as well!



                          As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"

                          it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues

                          With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever

                          said/written about his discussions with Rebazar

                          or any other EK Master!



                          FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!

                          This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the

                          "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as

                          the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as

                          the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned

                          about this "upper region," although, it is referred

                          to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-

                          looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This

                          happens because asking too many questions shows

                          spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and

                          in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"

                          comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for

                          answers. However, all "answers" must agree with

                          the same text that contain the conflicting info!

                          This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma

                          works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,

                          or they're Black Ball
                          ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"

                          within the Satsang Society.



                          Prometheus



                          Jay wrote:



                          Dear Etznab



                          Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,

                          its a fictional piece based on the well known

                          metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..

                          I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson

                          features it as part of his hypothesis as us having

                          multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,

                          in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher

                          Consciousness Society website. You'll find them

                          by clicking on the classes button and then the

                          audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to

                          them in order as not to get confused of what's

                          being discussed and explained by Johnson,

                          the particular section of Over soul seven and

                          Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                          g'luk



                          Jay



                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > ____________ _________ _________ __

                          > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                          >

                          >



                          Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                          >

                          Etznab,

                          Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                          >

                          Prometheus,



                          Etznab wrote:

                          > No. I haven't.

                          >

                          > The reference to number seven interests me.

                          > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are

                          > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v
                          ersion of

                          > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave

                          > me the impression of eight basic planes, where

                          > the eighth (and highest) was considered above

                          > them all. Like, something on another level, so

                          > to speak. Examples:

                          >

                          > p. 156

                          >

                          > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet

                          > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres

                          > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear

                          > all!"

                          >

                          > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,

                          > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm

                          > not sure. That quote is on the second page

                          > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.

                          > Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                          >

                          > For some reason, I'm under the impression

                          > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from

                          > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the

                          > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in

                          > the same book.

                          >

                          > p. 195

                          >

                          > "When I want to show the world my highest

                          > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.

                          > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the

                          > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will

                          > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree

                          > final for he represents my power in the seven

                          > lower worlds."

                          >

                          > [That was fro
                          m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.

                          > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                          >

                          > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in

                          > my earlier post. The being supposed to have

                          > spoken those words was either Anami, or the

                          > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could

                          > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that

                          > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.

                          > Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                          >

                          > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                          >

                          > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.

                          > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?

                          > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental

                          > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami

                          > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but

                          > I suspect the earlier models had around eight

                          > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's

                          > book would mention this many and then the

                          > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give

                          > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative

                          > haste, and will have to go back & check the

                          > names of the planes for accuracy.)

                          >

                          > In the next chapter following that one (THE

                          > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs

                          > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph

                          > of the chapter:

                          >

                          > p. 1
                          97

                          >

                          > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take

                          > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond

                          > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth

                          > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So

                          > you will then know for yourself. [....]

                          >

                          > p. 199

                          >

                          > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,

                          > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are

                          > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must

                          > serve to take the message of the divine to all my

                          > creations throughout the seven spheres."

                          >

                          > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And

                          > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,

                          > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-

                          > other time mentions seven spheres.

                          >

                          > It was the context from those chapters that gave me

                          > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",

                          > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a

                          > place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                          >

                          > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.

                          > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to

                          > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even

                          > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in

                          > a total of only seven planets.

                          >

                          > As I begin re
                          ading through the Eck books again -

                          > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious

                          > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,

                          > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing

                          > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's

                          > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to

                          > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand

                          > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was

                          > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                          > materials. Like, how much of it was material that

                          > was already known to history? How much was in

                          > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D

                          > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?

                          > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,

                          > how much of the material had actually come direct

                          > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens

                          > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                          >

                          > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and

                          > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,

                          > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with

                          > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                          >

                          > Etznab

                          >

                          > -----Original Message-----

                          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>

                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                          > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20
                          09 1:41 pm

                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.
                          the Soul

                          > "Body"

                          >

                          > Hello Etznab,

                          >

                          > You make some good points and have

                          >

                          > brought up more information to point

                          >

                          > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                          >

                          > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                          >

                          > and D.W.T.M. later.

                          >

                          > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                          >

                          > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                          >

                          > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                          >

                          > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                          >

                          > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                          >

                          > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                          >

                          > overlook this point. And, look at how

                          >

                          > many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                          >

                          > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                          >

                          > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                          >

                          > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0

                          > D

                          >

                          > Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                          >

                          > under Klemp's rule(s)!

                          >

                          > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                          >

                          > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                          >

                          > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                          >

                          > Over-Soul and that
                          these Souls need to

                          >

                          > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                          >

                          > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                          >

                          > being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                          >

                          > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                          >

                          > by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                          >

                          > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                          >

                          > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                          >

                          > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                          >

                          > Prometheus

                          >

                          > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                          >

                          > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                          >

                          > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                          >

                          > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                          >

                          > Plane!

                          >

                          > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                          >

                          > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                          >

                          > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                          >

                          > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                          >

                          > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                          >

                          > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                          >

                          > Etznab wrote:

                          >

                          > I would like to know the difference between

                          >

                          > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                          >

                          > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                          >

                          > about the inner=2
                          0form of the Living Eck Master.

                          >

                          > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                          >

                          > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0

                          > D

                          >

                          > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                          >

                          > This is something I've been contemplating

                          >

                          > for some time: What is different with the two

                          >

                          > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                          >

                          > about this subject).

                          >

                          > There's another thing on this subject, and it

                          >

                          > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                          >

                          > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                          >

                          > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                          >

                          > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                          >

                          > any of the other lower world bodies where there

                          >

                          > are many different ones - including the physical

                          >

                          > body.

                          >

                          > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                          >

                          > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                          >

                          > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                          >

                          > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                          >

                          > Something like another dimension.

                          >

                          > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                          >

                          > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                          >

                          > the L
                          iving Eck Master become so important?

                          >

                          > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                          >

                          > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                          >

                          > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                          >

                          > understanding is that the astral body is limited

                          >

                          > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                          >

                          > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                          >

                          > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                          >

                          > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                          >

                          > it reads like that was his first vis

                          > it. However, in

                          >

                          > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                          >

                          > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                          >

                          > already!

                          >

                          > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                          >

                          > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                          >

                          > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                          >

                          > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                          >

                          > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                          >

                          > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                          >

                          > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                          >

                          > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                          >

                          > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                          >

                          > the way to the nameless
                          plane. Anami. & not

                          >

                          > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                          >

                          > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                          >

                          > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                          >

                          > Fang account and the year 1957.

                          >

                          > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                          >

                          > I wonder, were those two different books, the

                          >

                          > two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                          >

                          > experience?

                          >

                          > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                          >

                          > online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                          >

                          > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                          >

                          > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                          >

                          > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                          >

                          > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                          >

                          > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                          >

                          > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                          >

                          > A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                          >

                          > I've

                          > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                          >

                          > books and read from the beginning, looking at

                          >

                          > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                          >

                          > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                          >

                          > this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                          >

                          > had20escaped me up until now.

                          >

                          > Etznab

                          >

                          > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                          >

                          > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                          >

                          > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                          >

                          > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                          >

                          > or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                          >

                          > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                          >

                          > of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                          >

                          > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                          >

                          > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                          >

                          > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                          >

                          > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                          >

                          > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                          >

                          > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                          >

                          > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                          >

                          > teach and other "believers" experience!

                          >

                          > Prometheus

                          >

                          > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                          >

                          > Hello All,

                          >

                          > It was bad enough that HK sold

                          >

                          > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                          >

                          > portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                          >

                          > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).

                          > 0D

                          >

                          > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                          =0
                          A
                          >

                          > portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                          >

                          > The truth has (once again) been

                          >

                          > embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                          >

                          > no doubt, likes this rendition because

                          >

                          > it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                          >

                          > this drawing looks more "sketch"

                          >

                          > like than portrait like!

                          >

                          > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                          >

                          > a more modern, shaved look, and

                          >

                          > does not appear as thin as it really

                          >

                          > is (the inside portion of his ear is

                          >

                          > different too).

                          >

                          > When looking at the front cover photo,

                          >

                          > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                          >

                          > World of ECKankar" we can see that

                          >

                          > Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                          >

                          > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                          >

                          > makes Klemp look younger.

                          >

                          > The question ECKists should be asking is,

                          >

                          > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                          >

                          > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                          >

                          > followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                          >

                          > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                          >

                          > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                          >

                          > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0
                          D

                          >

                          > I think it's funny that Klemp names

                          >

                          > this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                          >

                          > a "true friend" say such nasty

                          > and mean

                          >

                          > things to you? These RESAs and other

                          >

                          > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                          >

                          > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                          >

                          > now they see that there are strings

                          >

                          > attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                          >

                          > ship.

                          >

                          > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                          >

                          > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                          >

                          > himself, or give it to you... free of

                          >

                          > charge? Hmmmmmm.

                          >

                          > On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                          >

                          > make even more money from his image.

                          >

                          > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                          >

                          > as though he has a big hole running

                          >

                          > through his head. So, maybe HK could

                          >

                          > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                          >

                          > The chain would go through his ears!

                          >

                          > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                          >

                          > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                          >

                          > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                          >

                          > he does with portraits, books, etc.

                          >

                          > Prometheus

                          >

                          &
                          gt;

                          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                          .yahoo.com

                          >

                          >

                          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                          .yahoo.com

                          >











                          Send instant messages to your online friends
                          http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          Typo correction. The following sentence I don t have to have guilt on my conscience, living with the thought I am knowingly spreading fact for fiction.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Typo correction. The following sentence

                            "I don't have to have guilt on my conscience,
                            living with the thought I am knowingly spreading
                            fact for fiction."

                            should read: fiction for fact, instead of fact
                            for fiction.

                            Etznab

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: etznab@...
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 6:47 pm
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                            Soul "Body"










                            I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".

                            In fact, I would call it very much alive and is

                            the basis for many people's present & future

                            beliefs about numerous things.



                            Going back and clarifying the past is what

                            I am seeking to do, by isolating the context

                            of those many stories I have read and heard

                            told in Eckankar books and discussions.



                            This is something I've been wanting to do

                            for a long time. Establish the "context". For

                            example, What is the literal truth and what

                            is not?



                            Here is why I think this important. When I

                            can prove beyond a doubt that something is

                            fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that

                            regard. It's power over me would not be the

                            same, not have the same influence & power

                            over my belief system and psyche as some-

                            thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With

                            myth and fiction - knowing a source is that
                            -

                            it leaves me with the liberty to explore further

                            and to learn how the story came about in the

                            first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the

                            people who take pseudo religion and history

                            to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.

                            I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &

                            infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my

                            conscience, living with the thought I am know-

                            ingly spreading fact for fiction.



                            BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.

                            I'm just now getting around to reading mail.



                            Etznab



                            -----Original Message-----

                            From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                            Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm

                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the

                            Soul "Body"



                            Hi Prometheus



                            Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman

                            connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff

                            being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just

                            mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane

                            Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had

                            in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a

                            dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk

                            in the present.



                            Jay



                            =0
                            AFrom: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                            Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08

                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul

                            "Body"



                            Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,



                            Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's



                            fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam



                            that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that



                            this is similar to beating a dead horse



                            when sorting out the truth from all the



                            crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be



                            distracted from the current, now, happenings



                            under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.



                            =0

                            A

                            Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.



                            He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off



                            the hook via his distractions involving



                            Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,



                            avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon



                            PT's "creative writing" by manipulating



                            the lies and myth that Twitchell created



                            in order to confuse the issue.



                            Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,



                            but became more and more insane over



                            time. And, look at those "creative" people



                            in business who have scammed thousands



                            of individuals out of their life savings! They



                            even scammed hospitals and non-profit



                            foundations!
                            Very "creative" weren't they!



                            Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's



                            expected from a person who paid to be



                            included in "The International Who's Who



                            of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,



                            why do EKists need Klemp when they can



                            "create" their own reality/destiny and make



                            themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a



                            Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is



                            redundant and lives in the past by quoting



                            historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote



                            EK Masters, still living in a physical body,



                            with their current views of society and how



                            it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where



                            are these relevant "insights" from these EK



                            Masters?



                            BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote



                            a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes



                            a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,



                            actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real



                            truth about Marman's book is that it comes



                            much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                            Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that



                            "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and



                            that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"



                            as well!



                            As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"



                            it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues




                            With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever



                            said/written about his discussions with Rebazar



                            or any other EK Master!



                            FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!



                            This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the



                            "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as



                            the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as



                            the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned



                            about this "upper region," although, it is referred



                            to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-



                            looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This



                            happens because asking too many questions shows



                            spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and



                            in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"



                            comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for



                            answers. However, all "answers" must agree with



                            the same text that contain the conflicting info!



                            This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma



                            works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,



                            or they're Black Ball

                            ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"



                            within the Satsang Society.



                            Prometheus



                            Jay wrote:



                            Dear Etznab



                            Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,



                            its a fictional piece based on the well20known



                            metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..



                            I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson



                            features it as part of his hypothesis as us having



                            multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,



                            in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher



                            Consciousness Society website. You'll find them



                            by clicking on the classes button and then the



                            audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to



                            them in order as not to get confused of what's



                            being discussed and explained by Johnson,



                            the particular section of Over soul seven and



                            Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                            g'luk



                            Jay



                            >



                            >



                            >



                            > ____________ _________ _________ __



                            > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                            >



                            >



                            Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                            >



                            Etznab,



                            Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                            >



                            Prometheus,



                            Etznab wrote:



                            > No. I haven't.



                            >



                            > The reference to number seven interests me.



                            > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are



                            > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v

                            ersion of=0
                            D



                            > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave



                            > me the impression of eight basic planes, where



                            > the eighth (and highest) was considered above



                            > them all. Like, something on another level, so



                            > to speak. Examples:



                            >



                            > p. 156



                            >



                            > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet



                            > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres



                            > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear



                            > all!"



                            >



                            > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,



                            > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm



                            > not sure. That quote is on the second page



                            > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.



                            > Question: Why does he mention seven?]



                            >



                            > For some reason, I'm under the impression



                            > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from



                            > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the



                            > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in



                            > the same book.



                            >



                            > p. 195



                            >



                            > "When I want to show the world my highest



                            > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.



                            > This is my greatest gift and boon.=2
                            0He is the



                            > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will



                            > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree



                            > final for he represents my power in the seven



                            > lower worlds."



                            >



                            > [That was fro

                            m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.



                            > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the



                            >



                            > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in



                            > my earlier post. The being supposed to have



                            > spoken those words was either Anami, or the



                            > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could



                            > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that



                            > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.



                            > Consider the last seven words in that quote:



                            >



                            > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."



                            >



                            > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.



                            > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?



                            > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental



                            > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami



                            > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but



                            > I suspect the earlier models had around eight



                            > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's



                            > book=2
                            0would mention this many and then the



                            > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give



                            > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative



                            > haste, and will have to go back & check the



                            > names of the planes for accuracy.)



                            >



                            > In the next chapter following that one (THE



                            > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs



                            > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph



                            > of the chapter:



                            >



                            > p. 1

                            97



                            >



                            > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take



                            > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond



                            > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth



                            > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So



                            > you will then know for yourself. [....]



                            >



                            > p. 199



                            >



                            > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,



                            > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are



                            > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must



                            > serve to take the message of the divine to all my



                            > creations throughout the seven spheres."



                            >



                            > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And



                            > by non
                            e other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,



                            > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-



                            > other time mentions seven spheres.



                            >



                            > It was the context from those chapters that gave me



                            > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",



                            > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a



                            > place "above" them and making a total of eight.



                            >



                            > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.



                            > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to



                            > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even



                            > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in



                            > a total of only seven planets.



                            >



                            > As I begin re

                            ading through the Eck books again -



                            > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious



                            > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,



                            > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing



                            > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's



                            > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to



                            > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand



                            > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was



                            > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                            =0
                            D

                            > materials. Like, how much of it was material that



                            > was already known to history? How much was in



                            > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D



                            > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?



                            > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,



                            > how much of the material had actually come direct



                            > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens



                            > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?



                            >



                            > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and



                            > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,



                            > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with



                            > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.



                            >



                            > Etznab



                            >



                            > -----Original Message-----



                            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>



                            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com



                            > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20

                            09 1:41 pm



                            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.

                            the Soul



                            > "Body"



                            >



                            > Hello Etznab,



                            >



                            > You make some good points and have



                            >



                            > brought up more information to point



                            =0
                            A>



                            > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.



                            >



                            > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"



                            >



                            > and D.W.T.M. later.



                            >



                            > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra



                            >



                            > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;



                            >



                            > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th



                            >



                            > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"



                            >



                            > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral



                            >



                            > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to



                            >



                            > overlook this point. And, look at how



                            >



                            > many years Klemp has instructed EKists



                            >



                            > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/



                            >



                            > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra



                            >



                            > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0



                            > D



                            >



                            > Chakra is still being used after 28 years



                            >



                            > under Klemp's rule(s)!



                            >



                            > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is



                            >



                            > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There



                            >



                            > is a belief that Groups
                            of Souls have an



                            >



                            > Over-Soul and that

                            these Souls need to



                            >



                            > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)



                            >



                            > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/



                            >



                            > being that same Over-Soul which, then,



                            >



                            > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can



                            >



                            > by-pass the hierarchy and can become



                            >



                            > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,



                            >



                            > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have



                            >



                            > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                            >



                            > Prometheus



                            >



                            > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI



                            >



                            > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is



                            >



                            > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"



                            >



                            > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th



                            >



                            > Plane!



                            >



                            > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"



                            >



                            > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,



                            >



                            > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect



                            >



                            > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "
                            advanced"



                            >



                            > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"



                            >



                            > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



                            >



                            > Etznab wrote:



                            >



                            > I would like to know the difference between



                            >



                            > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,



                            >



                            > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something



                            >



                            > about the inner=2

                            0form of the Living Eck Master.



                            >



                            > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called



                            >



                            > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0



                            > D



                            >



                            > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



                            >



                            > This is something I've been contemplating



                            >



                            > for some time: What is different with the two



                            >



                            > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me



                            >



                            > about this subject).



                            >



                            > There's another thing on this subject, and it



                            >



                            > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,



                            >



                            > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided



                            >



                            > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the




                            >



                            > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,



                            >



                            > any of the other lower world bodies where there



                            >



                            > are many different ones - including the physical



                            >



                            > body.



                            >



                            > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma



                            >



                            > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is



                            >



                            > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul



                            >



                            > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.



                            >



                            > Something like another dimension.



                            >



                            > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?



                            >



                            > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of



                            >



                            > the L

                            iving Eck Master become so important?



                            >



                            > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled



                            >



                            > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that



                            >



                            > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My



                            >



                            > understanding is that the astral body is limited



                            >



                            > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup



                            >



                            > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one=2
                            0would have



                            >



                            > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



                            >



                            > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book



                            >



                            > it reads like that was his first vis



                            > it. However, in



                            >



                            > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The



                            >



                            > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice



                            >



                            > already!



                            >



                            > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                            >



                            > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the



                            >



                            > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.



                            >



                            > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the



                            >



                            > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and



                            >



                            > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after



                            >



                            > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul



                            >



                            > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)



                            >



                            > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all



                            >



                            > the way to the nameless

                            plane. Anami. & not



                            >



                            > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem



                            >



                            &
                            gt; quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-



                            >



                            > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's



                            >



                            > Fang account and the year 1957.



                            >



                            > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                            >



                            > I wonder, were those two different books, the



                            >



                            > two different manuscripts, about the same basic



                            >



                            > experience?



                            >



                            > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an



                            >



                            > online version of The Path of the Masters? by



                            >



                            > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter



                            >



                            > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the



                            >



                            > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The



                            >



                            > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257



                            >



                            > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami



                            >



                            > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:



                            >



                            > A Talk With Rami Nuri.



                            >



                            > I've



                            > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early



                            >



                            > books and read from the beginning, looking at



                            >


                            0D
                            > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over



                            >



                            > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at



                            >



                            > this point in time. I'm discovering things that



                            >



                            > had20escaped me up until now.



                            >



                            > Etznab



                            >



                            > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                            >



                            > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



                            >



                            > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



                            >



                            > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



                            >



                            > or contemplate upon his Physical image via



                            >



                            > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



                            >



                            > of an Astral image. How is this the same as



                            >



                            > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



                            >



                            > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



                            >



                            > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



                            >



                            > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



                            >



                            > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



                            >



                            > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



                            >



                            > of the Lower Planes=2
                            0just as all other religions



                            >



                            > teach and other "believers" experience!



                            >



                            > Prometheus



                            >



                            > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



                            >



                            > Hello All,



                            >



                            > It was bad enough that HK sold



                            >



                            > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



                            >



                            > portrait. Now he's selling the "True



                            >



                            > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



                            > 0D



                            >



                            > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                            =0

                            A

                            >



                            > portrait accurately? No, not quite!



                            >



                            > The truth has (once again) been



                            >



                            > embellished and distorted! Klemp,



                            >



                            > no doubt, likes this rendition because



                            >



                            > it makes him appear younger. Thus,



                            >



                            > this drawing looks more "sketch"



                            >



                            > like than portrait like!



                            >



                            > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



                            >



                            > a more modern, shaved look, and



                            >



                            > does not appear as thin as it really



                            >



                            > is (t
                            he inside portion of his ear is



                            >



                            > different too).



                            >



                            > When looking at the front cover photo,



                            >



                            > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



                            >



                            > World of ECKankar" we can see that



                            >



                            > Klemp parts his hair on the side and



                            >



                            > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



                            >



                            > makes Klemp look younger.



                            >



                            > The question ECKists should be asking is,



                            >



                            > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



                            >



                            > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



                            >



                            > followers all want to "imagine" that they look



                            >



                            > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



                            >



                            > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



                            >



                            > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0

                            D



                            >



                            > I think it's funny that Klemp names



                            >



                            > this new portrait "True Friend." Would



                            >



                            > a "true friend" say such nasty



                            > and mean



                            >



                            > things to you? These RESAs and ot
                            her



                            >



                            > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



                            >



                            > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



                            >



                            > now they see that there are strings



                            >



                            > attached and that it's a one-way friend-



                            >



                            > ship.



                            >



                            > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



                            >



                            > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



                            >



                            > himself, or give it to you... free of



                            >



                            > charge? Hmmmmmm.



                            >



                            > On another note, I saw how Klemp can



                            >



                            > make even more money from his image.



                            >



                            > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



                            >



                            > as though he has a big hole running



                            >



                            > through his head. So, maybe HK could



                            >



                            > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



                            >



                            > The chain would go through his ears!



                            >



                            > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



                            >



                            > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK



                            >



                            > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



                            >


                            =0
                            A
                            > he does with portraits, books, etc.



                            >



                            > Prometheus



                            >



                            &

                            gt;



                            > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                            .yahoo.com



                            >



                            >



                            > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                            .yahoo.com



                            >



                            Send instant messages to your online friends

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