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Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Etznab, You make some good points and have brought up more information to point out Twitchell s and, now, Klemp s scam. I ll have to look at my copy of
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 24, 2009
      Hello Etznab,
      You make some good points and have
      brought up more information to point
      out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
      I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
      and D.W.T.M. later.

      It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
      Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
      Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
      Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
      their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
      "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
      overlook this point. And, look at how
      many years Klemp has instructed EKists
      to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
      singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
      is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
      Chakra is still being used after 28 years
      under Klemp's rule(s)!

      BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
      actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
      is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
      Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
      become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
      or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
      being that same Over-Soul which, then,
      becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
      by-pass the hierarchy and can become
      "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
      on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
      you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

      Prometheus
      p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
      LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
      where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
      resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
      Plane!

      Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
      thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
      Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
      with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
      Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
      [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]


      Etznab wrote:
      I would like to know the difference between
      Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
      the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
      about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

      The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
      a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
      Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

      This is something I've been contemplating
      for some time: What is different with the two
      types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
      about this subject).

      There's another thing on this subject, and it
      has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
      I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
      body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
      Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
      any of the other lower world bodies where there
      are many different ones - including the physical
      body.

      So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
      Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
      only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
      Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
      Something like another dimension.

      Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
      and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
      the Living Eck Master become so important?
      Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
      to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
      the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
      understanding is that the astral body is limited
      to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
      transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
      to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

      Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
      it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
      the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
      Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
      already!

      ?????????????????????????????????????

      A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
      Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
      to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
      D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
      T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
      getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
      Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
      Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
      the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
      only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
      quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
      Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
      Fang account and the year 1957.

      ?????????????????????????????????????

      I wonder, were those two different books, the
      two different manuscripts, about the same basic
      experience?

      BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
      online version of The Path of the Masters? by
      Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
      entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
      Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
      Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
      on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
      Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
      A Talk With Rami Nuri.

      I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
      books and read from the beginning, looking at
      how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
      the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
      this point in time. I'm discovering things that
      had escaped me up until now.

      Etznab



      HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"


      Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

      is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

      chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

      or contemplate upon his Physical image via

      his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

      of an Astral image. How is this the same as

      meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

      Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

      with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

      than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

      Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

      (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

      of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

      teach and other "believers" experience!



      Prometheus





      Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



      Hello All,

      It was bad enough that HK sold

      his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

      portrait. Now he's selling the "True

      Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



      But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

      portrait accurately? No, not quite!

      The truth has (once again) been

      embellished and distorted! Klemp,

      no doubt, likes this rendition because

      it makes him appear younger. Thus,

      this drawing looks more "sketch"

      like than portrait like!



      What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

      a more modern, shaved look, and

      does not appear as thin as it really

      is (the inside portion of his ear is

      different too).



      When looking at the front cover photo,

      of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

      World of ECKankar" we can see that

      Klemp parts his hair on the side and

      does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

      makes Klemp look younger.



      The question ECKists should be asking is,

      Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

      are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

      followers all want to "imagine" that they look

      "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

      Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

      rather than having an Astral Plane image!



      I think it's funny that Klemp names

      this new portrait "True Friend." Would

      a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

      things to you? These RESAs and other

      H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

      Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

      now they see that there are strings

      attached and that it's a one-way friend-

      ship.



      BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

      you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

      himself, or give it to you... free of

      charge? Hmmmmmm.



      On another note, I saw how Klemp can

      make even more money from his image.

      HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

      as though he has a big hole running

      through his head. So, maybe HK could

      have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

      The chain would go through his ears!

      He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

      $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

      will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

      he does with portraits, books, etc.



      Prometheus
    • etznab@aol.com
      Have you ever read about, Over-Soul Seven? Prometheus, No. I haven t. The reference to number seven interests me. Since seven heavens , or seven spheres
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 24, 2009
        Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

        Prometheus,

        No. I haven't.

        The reference to number seven interests me.
        Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
        mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
        Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
        me the impression of eight basic planes, where
        the eighth (and highest) was considered above
        them all. Like, something on another level, so
        to speak. Examples:

        p. 156

        "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
        of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
        of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
        all!"

        [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
        during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
        not sure. That quote is on the second page
        of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
        Question: Why does he mention seven?]

        For some reason, I'm under the impression
        that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
        a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
        8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
        the same book.

        p. 195

        "When I want to show the world my highest
        grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
        This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
        sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
        is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
        final for he represents my power in the seven
        lower worlds."

        [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
        I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

        Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
        my earlier post. The being supposed to have
        spoken those words was either Anami, or the
        SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
        have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
        story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
        Consider the last seven words in that quote:

        ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

        I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
        Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
        (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
        (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
        Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
        I suspect the earlier models had around eight
        planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
        book would mention this many and then the
        1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
        a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
        haste, and will have to go back & check the
        names of the planes for accuracy.)

        In the next chapter following that one (THE
        SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
        go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
        of the chapter:

        p. 197

        Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
        you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
        into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
        of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
        you will then know for yourself. [....]

        p. 199

        "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
        speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
        among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
        serve to take the message of the divine to all my
        creations throughout the seven spheres."

        Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
        by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
        once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
        other time mentions seven spheres.

        It was the context from those chapters that gave me
        the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
        etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
        place "above" them and making a total of eight.

        I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
        Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
        be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
        during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
        a total of only seven planets.

        As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
        starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
        notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
        when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
        and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
        1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
        take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
        the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
        (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
        materials. Like, how much of it was material that
        was already known to history? How much was in
        the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
        How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
        How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
        how much of the material had actually come direct
        from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
        (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

        This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
        so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
        history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
        other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

        Etznab



        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
        "Body"








        Hello Etznab,

        You make some good points and have

        brought up more information to point

        out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

        I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

        and D.W.T.M. later.



        It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

        Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

        Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

        Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

        their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

        "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

        overlook this point. And, look at how

        many years Klemp has instructed EKists

        to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

        singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

        is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
        D

        Chakra is still being used after 28 years

        under Klemp's rule(s)!



        BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

        actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

        is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

        Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

        become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

        or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

        being that same Over-Soul which, then,

        becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

        by-pass the hierarchy and can become

        "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

        on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

        you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



        Prometheus

        p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

        LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

        where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

        resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

        Plane!



        Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

        thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

        Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

        with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

        Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

        [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



        Etznab wrote:

        I would like to know the difference between

        Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

        the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

        about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.



        The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

        a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
        D

        Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



        This is something I've been contemplating

        for some time: What is different with the two

        types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

        about this subject).



        There's another thing on this subject, and it

        has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

        I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

        body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

        Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

        any of the other lower world bodies where there

        are many different ones - including the physical

        body.



        So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

        Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

        only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

        Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

        Something like another dimension.



        Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

        and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

        the Living Eck Master become so important?

        Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

        to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

        the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

        understanding is that the astral body is limited

        to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

        transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

        to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



        Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

        it reads like that was his first vis
        it. However, in

        the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

        Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

        already!



        ?????????????????????????????????????



        A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

        Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

        to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

        D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

        T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

        getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

        Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

        Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

        the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

        only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

        quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

        Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

        Fang account and the year 1957.



        ?????????????????????????????????????



        I wonder, were those two different books, the

        two different manuscripts, about the same basic

        experience?



        BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

        online version of The Path of the Masters? by

        Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

        entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

        Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

        Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

        on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

        Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

        A Talk With Rami Nuri.



        I've
        decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

        books and read from the beginning, looking at

        how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

        the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

        this point in time. I'm discovering things that

        had escaped me up until now.



        Etznab



        HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



        Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



        is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



        chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



        or contemplate upon his Physical image via



        his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



        of an Astral image. How is this the same as



        meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



        Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



        with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



        than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



        Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



        (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



        of the Lower Planes just as all other religions



        teach and other "believers" experience!



        Prometheus



        Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



        Hello All,



        It was bad enough that HK sold



        his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



        portrait. Now he's selling the "True



        Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
        0D


        But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the



        portrait accurately? No, not quite!



        The truth has (once again) been



        embellished and distorted! Klemp,



        no doubt, likes this rendition because



        it makes him appear younger. Thus,



        this drawing looks more "sketch"



        like than portrait like!



        What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



        a more modern, shaved look, and



        does not appear as thin as it really



        is (the inside portion of his ear is



        different too).



        When looking at the front cover photo,



        of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



        World of ECKankar" we can see that



        Klemp parts his hair on the side and



        does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



        makes Klemp look younger.



        The question ECKists should be asking is,



        Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



        are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



        followers all want to "imagine" that they look



        "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



        Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



        rather than having an Astral Plane image!



        I think it's funny that Klemp names



        this new portrait "True Friend." Would



        a "true friend" say such nasty
        and mean



        things to you? These RESAs and other



        H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



        Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



        now they see that there are strings



        attached and that it's a one-way friend-



        ship.



        BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



        you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



        himself, or give it to you... free of



        charge? Hmmmmmm.



        On another note, I saw how Klemp can



        make even more money from his image.



        HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



        as though he has a big hole running



        through his head. So, maybe HK could



        have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



        The chain would go through his ears!



        He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



        $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK



        will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



        he does with portraits, books, etc.



        Prometheus
      • Jason Mc Dermott
        Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
          Dear Etznab

          I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                     The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                      Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
          The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

          Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they're quite good.

          Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
          As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

           Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

          I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

          Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

          I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

          Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
          http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html

          hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

          Jay




          From: "etznab@..." <etznab@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

          Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

          Prometheus,

          No. I haven't.

          The reference to number seven interests me.
          Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
          mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
          Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
          me the impression of eight basic planes, where
          the eighth (and highest) was considered above
          them all. Like, something on another level, so
          to speak. Examples:

          p. 156

          "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
          of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
          of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
          all!"

          [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
          during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
          not sure. That quote is on the second page
          of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
          Question: Why does he mention seven?]

          For some reason, I'm under the impression
          that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
          a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
          8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
          the same book.

          p. 195

          "When I want to show the world my highest
          grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
          This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
          sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
          is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
          final for he represents my power in the seven
          lower worlds."

          [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
          I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

          Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
          my earlier post. The being supposed to have
          spoken those words was either Anami, or the
          SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
          have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
          story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
          Consider the last seven words in that quote:

          ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

          I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
          Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
          (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
          (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
          Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
          I suspect the earlier models had around eight
          planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
          book would mention this many and then the
          1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
          a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
          haste, and will have to go back & check the
          names of the planes for accuracy.)

          In the next chapter following that one (THE
          SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
          go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
          of the chapter:

          p. 197

          Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
          you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
          into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
          of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
          you will then know for yourself. [....]

          p. 199

          "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
          speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
          among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
          serve to take the message of the divine to all my
          creations throughout the seven spheres."

          Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
          by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
          once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
          other time mentions seven spheres.

          It was the context from those chapters that gave me
          the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
          etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
          place "above" them and making a total of eight.

          I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
          Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
          be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
          during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
          a total of only seven planets.

          As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
          starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
          notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
          when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
          and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
          1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
          take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
          the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
          (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
          materials. Like, how much of it was material that
          was already known to history? How much was in
          the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
          How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
          How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
          how much of the material had actually come direct
          from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
          (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

          This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
          so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
          history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
          other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
          "Body"

          Hello Etznab,

          You make some good points and have

          brought up more information to point

          out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

          I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

          and D.W.T.M. later.

          It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

          Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

          Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

          Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

          their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

          "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

          overlook this point. And, look at how

          many years Klemp has instructed EKists

          to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

          singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

          is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
          D

          Chakra is still being used after 28 years

          under Klemp's rule(s)!

          BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

          actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

          is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

          Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

          become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

          or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

          being that same Over-Soul which, then,

          becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

          by-pass the hierarchy and can become

          "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

          on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

          you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

          Prometheus

          p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

          LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

          where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

          resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

          Plane!

          Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

          thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

          Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

          with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

          Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

          [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

          Etznab wrote:

          I would like to know the difference between

          Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

          the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

          about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

          The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

          a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
          D

          Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

          This is something I've been contemplating

          for some time: What is different with the two

          types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

          about this subject).

          There's another thing on this subject, and it

          has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

          I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

          body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

          Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

          any of the other lower world bodies where there

          are many different ones - including the physical

          body.

          So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

          Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

          only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

          Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

          Something like another dimension.

          Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

          and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

          the Living Eck Master become so important?

          Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

          to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

          the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

          understanding is that the astral body is limited

          to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

          transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

          to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

          Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

          it reads like that was his first vis
          it. However, in

          the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

          Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

          already!

          ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

          A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

          Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

          to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

          D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

          T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

          getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

          Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

          Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

          the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

          only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

          quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

          Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

          Fang account and the year 1957.

          ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

          I wonder, were those two different books, the

          two different manuscripts, about the same basic

          experience?

          BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

          online version of The Path of the Masters? by

          Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

          entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

          Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

          Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

          on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

          Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

          A Talk With Rami Nuri.

          I've
          decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

          books and read from the beginning, looking at

          how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

          the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

          this point in time. I'm discovering things that

          had escaped me up until now.

          Etznab

          HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

          Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

          is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

          chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

          or contemplate upon his Physical image via

          his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

          of an Astral image. How is this the same as

          meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

          Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

          with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

          than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

          Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

          (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

          of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

          teach and other "believers" experience!

          Prometheus

          Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

          Hello All,

          It was bad enough that HK sold

          his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

          portrait. Now he's selling the "True

          Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
          0D

          But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

          portrait accurately? No, not quite!

          The truth has (once again) been

          embellished and distorted! Klemp,

          no doubt, likes this rendition because

          it makes him appear younger. Thus,

          this drawing looks more "sketch"

          like than portrait like!

          What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

          a more modern, shaved look, and

          does not appear as thin as it really

          is (the inside portion of his ear is

          different too).

          When looking at the front cover photo,

          of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

          World of ECKankar" we can see that

          Klemp parts his hair on the side and

          does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

          makes Klemp look younger.

          The question ECKists should be asking is,

          Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

          are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

          followers all want to "imagine" that they look

          "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

          Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

          rather than having an Astral Plane image!

          I think it's funny that Klemp names

          this new portrait "True Friend." Would

          a "true friend" say such nasty
          and mean

          things to you? These RESAs and other

          H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

          Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

          now they see that there are strings

          attached and that it's a one-way friend-

          ship.

          BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

          you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

          himself, or give it to you... free of

          charge? Hmmmmmm.

          On another note, I saw how Klemp can

          make even more money from his image.

          HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

          as though he has a big hole running

          through his head. So, maybe HK could

          have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

          The chain would go through his ears!

          He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

          $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

          will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

          he does with portraits, books, etc.

          Prometheus


          Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
        • etznab@aol.com
          [....] So one year after getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for) Dialogues With The Master. In it he
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
            "[....] So one year after getting initiated by
            Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul Twitchell writes
            a book (the manuscript for) Dialogues With
            The Master. In it he travels all the way to the
            nameless plane. Anami. & not only once,
            but twice! Something doesn't seem quite
            right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
            Realization is usually identified with The
            Tiger's Fang account and the year 1957."

            I think that needs a little clarification.

            In Dialogues With The Master Paul T.
            writes in the Introduction section:

            [....] He concluded his series of talks that
            year by taking me on the spiritual journey
            recorded in my book "The Tiger's Fang."

            Using the date for writing the Dialogues
            With The Master manuscript to be 1956,
            it would seem that the "spiritual journey"
            recorded in The Tiger's Fang book came
            in late 1956. Not 1957.

            Apparently, I was not the only person
            who mentioned 1957. Example:

            A natural question one might ask about the
            ECK Initiations is this: "If Paul Twitchell had
            God Realization in 1957, why did the ECK
            Master Shamus-i-Tabriz suggest that Paul
            was not omniscient?" Isn't a God-Realized
            person supposed to know all things?

            [....]

            Paul did have the experience of God Con-
            sciousness in 1957, but it took eight full
            years before he was ready for the mantle
            of the Mahanta in 1965. Even then he did
            not know all things, as the spiritually naive
            would like to think20he did.

            [....]

            [Based on: Soul Travelers Of The Far Country,
            by Harold Klemp, copyright 1987, pp. 140-141]

            Here is another example. One that gives both
            1956 and 1957.

            "In late 1956 or early 1957 Paul had the experience
            that is recorded in The Tiger's Fang. If he touched the
            face of God in 1956, some people may wonder why it
            took him until 1965 to become the Mahanta, the
            Living ECK Master. [....]"

            [Based on: Article (Touching the Face of God) @
            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail

            It's only a trivial point, I know, however I think it's
            important to establish the date for this event.

            BTW, there is a chapter in Dialogues With The
            Master entitled The Face of God. It is Paul's first
            trip to the "Anami Plane" that I mentioned in that
            earlier post (the second trip was in the chapter
            The Sugmad Speaks. It follows The Face of God
            chapter).

            Interesting what a little time & research can do.
            Now I think I see the reason for mentioning 1956
            and not 1957 for Paul Twitchell's God-Realization
            experience.

            All of this brings up a question, though. Did Paul
            write about that experience twice? Like in both the
            manuscripts? 1956: Dialogues With The Master &
            1957: The Tiger's Fang?

            The journey to "Sugmad" appears in The Tiger's
            Fang chapter entitled: The Spiritual Malignancy.
            In it, the being reportedly speaking to Paul gives
            four principles. In
            Dialogues With The Master the
            being reportedly speaking - in The Face of God
            chapter - gives three precepts.

            So which is the accurate record about Paul T.'s
            so-called God-Realization experience in which he
            reportedly meets the SUGMAD? Or, God?

            After just reading Dialogues With The Master
            another time, my guess would be that the first
            mention was in the Dialogues With The Master
            chapter entitled The Face of God.

            BTW, I found that one Eckankar quote more
            than a little curious.

            "In late 1956 or early 1957 Paul had the experience
            that is recorded in The Tiger's Fang. If he touched the
            face of God in 1956, some people may wonder why it
            took him until 1965 to become the Mahanta, the
            Living ECK Master. [....]"

            [Based on: Article (Touching the Face of God) @
            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail

            Well, apparently (I would add) the experience was
            also recorded in Dialogues With The Master.

            My references seem to suggest that D.W.T.M.
            manuscript was written before The Tiger's Fang.
            Perhaps there was one basic manuscript which
            recorded (wrote about) the experience and Paul
            (or Eckankar) later made it into two books.

            I'm planning to read The Tiger's Fang next, &
            compare it with Dialogues With The Master. It
            will take some time, but I'll get back with you
            and maybe we can discuss what actually took
            place.

            Etznab


            -----Original Message-----
            F
            rom: etznab@...
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 10:20 pm
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
            "Body"


            I would like to know the difference between
            Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
            the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
            about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

            The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
            a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
            Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

            This is something I've been contemplating
            for some time: What is different with the two
            types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
            about this subject).

            There's another thing on this subject, and it
            has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
            I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
            body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
            Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
            any of the other lower world bodies where there
            are many different ones - including the physical
            body.

            So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
            Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
            only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
            Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
            Something like another dimension.

            Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
            and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
            the Living Eck Master become so important?
            Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
            to the Anami Lok wit
            h Rebazar Tarzs was that
            the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
            understanding is that the astral body is limited
            to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
            transc
            ends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
            to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

            Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
            it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
            the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
            Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
            already!

            ?????????????????????????????????????

            A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
            Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
            to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
            D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
            T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
            getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
            Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
            Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
            the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
            only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
            quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
            Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
            Fang account and the year 1957.

            ?????????????????????????????????????

            I wonder, were those two different books, the
            two different manuscripts, about the same basic
            experience?

            BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
            online version of The Path of the Masters? by
            Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
            entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
            Univ
            erse (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
            Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
            on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
            Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Examp
            le:
            A Talk With Rami Nuri.

            I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
            books and read from the beginning, looking at
            how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
            the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
            this point in time. I'm discovering things that
            had escaped me up until now.

            Etznab

            -----Original Message-----
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 12:29 am
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
            "Body"








            Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

            is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

            chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

            or contemplate upon his Physical image via

            his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

            of an Astral image. How is this the same as

            meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

            Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

            with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

            than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

            Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

            (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

            of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

            teach and other "believers" experience!



            Prometheus






            Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



            Hello All,

            It was bad enough that HK sold

            his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

            portrait. No
            w he's selling the "True

            Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



            But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

            portrait accurately? No, not quite!

            The truth has (once again) been

            embellished and distorted! Klemp,

            no doubt, likes this rendition because

            it makes him appear younger. Thus,

            this drawing looks more "sketch"

            like than portrait like!



            What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

            a more modern, shaved look, and

            does not appear as thin as it really

            is (the inside portion of his ear is

            different too).



            When looking at the front cover photo,

            of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

            World of ECKankar" we can see that

            Klemp parts his hair on the side and

            does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

            makes Klemp look younger.



            The question ECKists should be asking is,

            Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

            are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

            followers all want to "imagine" that they look

            "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

            Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

            rather than having an Astral Plane image!



            I think it's funny that Klemp names

            this new portrait "True Frien
            d." Would

            a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

            things to you? These RESAs and other

            H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

            Letter see Klemp as a True Friend
            , but

            now they see that there are strings

            attached and that it's a one-way friend-

            ship.



            BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

            you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

            himself, or give it to you... free of

            charge? Hmmmmmm.



            On another note, I saw how Klemp can

            make even more money from his image.

            HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

            as though he has a big hole running

            through his head. So, maybe HK could

            have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

            The chain would go through his ears!

            He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

            $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

            will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

            he does with portraits, books, etc.



            Prometheus
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
              Hello Jay,
              Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
              you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
              been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
              archives), and there are Links and Files,
              also, that show and discuss many of these
              subjects as well. However, the main focus
              of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
              this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
              positioned himself to inherit it and how
              he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
              continue the lies, myth, and the belief
              systems (fear and faith) that all religions
              use. - P.

              Jay wrote:
              Dear Etznab
              >
              I my self am doing similar in studying back
              over the shariyat's to see how much of these
              two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
              me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
              But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
              vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
              at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
              he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
              Then of course there are the number of books
              written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
              on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
              the story on this enigma of a man:
              >
              The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
              of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
              >
              P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
              not actually contain "the whole truth"
              and that much is just a rehash of his
              previous opinions and speculations]
              >
              The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
              >
              P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
              denounced Klemp and his own book about
              his "Mahanta" experiences.]
              >
              Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
              >
              P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
              spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
              who took his place]
              >
              The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
              though the above books have helped move
              on from some of his theories and material,
              but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
              He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
              book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
              just type his name in and you'll find it.
              >
              P: *[David started the ball rolling]
              >
              Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
              to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
              of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
              he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
              to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
              on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
              the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
              set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
              with others..they're quite good.
              >
              Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
              of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
              its on you tube the link is
              >
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
              >
              As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
              girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
              apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
              the website is
              >
              http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html
              >
              Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
              of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
              when kicked out of Eck.
              >
              P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
              Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
              >
              Also as you may know there are a few other off
              shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
              actually can't remember him.. should have book
              marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
              he has his own line of past masters. Another
              guy who will mail you intro material is Master
              Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
              >
              I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
              haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
              I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
              hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
              far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
              perspective of where I may be going next. What
              really makes his insights for us all stand out are
              two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
              in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
              master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
              all the time his students said he was with them
              on the inner planes and how they would praise
              him for his place in their spiritual development,
              he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
              nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
              students on the inner planes...I mean come on
              how profound is this.
              >
              Though we are on the intellectual level only with
              all this talk..it is basic and important though.
              I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
              I've practised the HU chant all this time and
              studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
              of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
              i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
              or ignored the possible science of the brain that
              maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
              to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd
              initiate always told it was my choice, though
              I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
              be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
              >
              >
              P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
              under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
              professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
              you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
              (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
              do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
              >
              >
              I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
              and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
              remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
              >
              Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
              of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
              >
              http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html
              >
              hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
              >
              Jay


              >
              > From: etznab
              >
              > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
              >
              > Prometheus,
              >
              > No. I haven't.
              >
              > The reference to number seven interests me.
              > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
              > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
              > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
              > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
              > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
              > them all. Like, something on another level, so
              > to speak. Examples:
              >
              > p. 156
              >
              > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
              > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
              > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
              > all!"
              >
              > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
              > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
              > not sure. That quote is on the second page
              > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
              > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
              >
              > For some reason, I'm under the impression
              > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
              > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
              > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
              > the same book.
              >
              > p. 195
              >
              > "When I want to show the world my highest
              > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
              > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
              > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
              > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
              > final for he represents my power in the seven
              > lower worlds."
              >
              > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
              > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
              >
              > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
              > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
              > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
              > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
              > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
              > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
              > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
              >
              > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
              >
              > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
              > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
              > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
              > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
              > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
              > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
              > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
              > book would mention this many and then the
              > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
              > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
              > haste, and will have to go back & check the
              > names of the planes for accuracy.)
              >
              > In the next chapter following that one (THE
              > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
              > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
              > of the chapter:
              >
              > p. 197
              >
              > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
              > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
              > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
              > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
              > you will then know for yourself. [....]
              >
              > p. 199
              >
              > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
              > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
              > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
              > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
              > creations throughout the seven spheres."
              >
              > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
              > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
              > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
              > other time mentions seven spheres.
              >
              > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
              > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
              > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
              > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
              >
              > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
              > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
              > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
              > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
              > a total of only seven planets.
              >
              > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
              > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
              > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
              > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
              > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
              > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
              > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
              > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
              > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
              > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
              > was already known to history? How much was in
              > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
              > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
              > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
              > how much of the material had actually come direct
              > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
              > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
              >
              > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
              > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
              > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
              > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              >
              > Hello Etznab,
              >
              > You make some good points and have
              >
              > brought up more information to point
              >
              > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
              >
              > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
              >
              > and D.W.T.M. later.
              >
              >
              > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
              >
              > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
              >
              > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
              >
              > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
              >
              > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
              >
              > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
              >
              > overlook this point. And, look at how
              >
              > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
              >
              > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
              >
              > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
              >
              > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
              >
              > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
              >
              > under Klemp's rule(s)!
              >
              >
              > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
              >
              > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
              >
              > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
              >
              > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
              >
              > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
              >
              > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
              >
              > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
              >
              > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
              >
              > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
              >
              > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
              >
              > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
              >
              > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
              >
              > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
              >
              > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
              >
              > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
              >
              > Plane!
              >
              > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
              >
              > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
              >
              > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
              >
              > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
              >
              > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
              >
              > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
              >
            • Jason Mc Dermott
              Hi Prometheus Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y know somewhere to
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                Hi Prometheus

                Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y'know somewhere to start..interesting line of inquiry though. Also thanks for the detail on becoming a 5th initiate I never really looked into it though. The sites great with all the files you've put up..great help.

                Thanks again

                Jay




                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 5:02:45
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

                Hello Jay,
                Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
                you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
                been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
                archives), and there are Links and Files,
                also, that show and discuss many of these
                subjects as well. However, the main focus
                of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
                this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
                positioned himself to inherit it and how
                he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
                continue the lies, myth, and the belief
                systems (fear and faith) that all religions
                use. - P.

                Jay wrote:
                Dear Etznab

                >
                I my self am doing similar in studying back
                over the shariyat's to see how much of these
                two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
                me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
                But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
                vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
                at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
                he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
                Then of course there are the number of books
                written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
                on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
                the story on this enigma of a man:
                >
                The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
                of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                >
                P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
                not actually contain "the whole truth"
                and that much is just a rehash of his
                previous opinions and speculations]
                >
                The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
                >
                P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
                denounced Klemp and his own book about
                his "Mahanta" experiences. ]
                >
                Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                >
                P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
                spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
                who took his place]
                >
                The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
                though the above books have helped move
                on from some of his theories and material,
                but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
                He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
                book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
                just type his name in and you'll find it.
                >
                P: *[David started the ball rolling]
                >
                Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
                to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
                of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
                he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
                to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
                on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
                the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
                set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
                with others..they' re quite good.
                >
                Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
                of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
                its on you tube the link is
                >
                http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego& feature=related
                >
                As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
                girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
                apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
                the website is
                >
                http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html
                >
                Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
                of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
                when kicked out of Eck.
                >
                P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
                Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
                >
                Also as you may know there are a few other off
                shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
                actually can't remember him.. should have book
                marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
                he has his own line of past masters. Another
                guy who will mail you intro material is Master
                Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
                >
                I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
                haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
                I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
                hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
                far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
                perspective of where I may be going next. What
                really makes his insights for us all stand out are
                two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
                in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
                master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
                all the time his students said he was with them
                on the inner planes and how they would praise
                him for his place in their spiritual development,
                he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
                nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
                students on the inner planes...I mean come on
                how profound is this.
                >
                Though we are on the intellectual level only with
                all this talk..it is basic and important though.
                I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
                I've practised the HU chant all this time and
                studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
                of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
                i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
                or ignored the possible science of the brain that
                maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
                to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd
                initiate always told it was my choice, though
                I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
                be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
                >
                >
                P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
                under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
                professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
                you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
                (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
                do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
                >
                >
                I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
                and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
                remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
                >
                Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
                of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                >
                http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html
                >
                hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
                >
                Jay


                >
                > From: etznab
                >
                > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                >
                > Prometheus,
                >
                > No. I haven't.
                >
                > The reference to number seven interests me.
                > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                > to speak. Examples:
                >
                > p. 156
                >
                > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                > all!"
                >
                > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                >
                > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                > the same book.
                >
                > p. 195
                >
                > "When I want to show the world my highest
                > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                > final for he represents my power in the seven
                > lower worlds."
                >
                > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                >
                > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                >
                > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                >
                > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                > book would mention this many and then the
                > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                >
                > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                > of the chapter:
                >
                > p. 197
                >
                > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                >
                > p. 199
                >
                > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                >
                > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                > other time mentions seven spheres.
                >
                > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                >
                > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                > a total of only seven planets.
                >
                > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                > was already known to history? How much was in
                > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                > how much of the material had actually come direct
                > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                >
                > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                >
                > Hello Etznab,
                >
                > You make some good points and have
                >
                > brought up more information to point
                >
                > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                >
                > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                >
                > and D.W.T.M. later.
                >
                >
                > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                >
                > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                >
                > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                >
                > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                >
                > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                >
                > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                >
                > overlook this point. And, look at how
                >
                > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                >
                > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                >
                > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                >
                > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
                >
                > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                >
                > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                >
                >
                > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                >
                > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                >
                > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                >
                > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                >
                > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                >
                > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                >
                > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                >
                > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                >
                > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                >
                > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                >
                > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                >
                > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                >
                > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                >
                > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                >
                > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                >
                > Plane!
                >
                > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                >
                > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                >
                > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                >
                > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                >
                > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                >
                > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                >


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              • Jason Mc Dermott
                Dear Etznab Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I ve just come
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                  Dear Etznab

                   Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson features it as part of his hypothesis as us having multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher Consciousness Society website. You'll find them by clicking on the classes button and then the audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to them in order as not to get confused of what's being discussed and explained by Johnson,the particular section of Over soul seven and Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                  g'luk

                  Jay


                  From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 15:03:04
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                  Dear Etznab

                  I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                             The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                              Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                  The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

                  Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they' re quite good.

                  Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
                  As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

                   Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

                  I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

                  Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

                  I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

                  Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                  http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html

                  hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

                  Jay




                  From: "etznab@aol. com" <etznab@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                  Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                  Prometheus,

                  No. I haven't.

                  The reference to number seven interests me.
                  Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                  mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                  Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                  me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                  the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                  them all. Like, something on another level, so
                  to speak. Examples:

                  p. 156

                  "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                  of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                  of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                  all!"

                  [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                  during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                  not sure. That quote is on the second page
                  of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                  Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                  For some reason, I'm under the impression
                  that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                  a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                  8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                  the same book.

                  p. 195

                  "When I want to show the world my highest
                  grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                  This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                  sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                  is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                  final for he represents my power in the seven
                  lower worlds."

                  [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                  I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                  Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                  my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                  spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                  SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                  have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                  story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                  Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                  ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                  I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                  Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                  (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                  (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                  Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                  I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                  planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                  book would mention this many and then the
                  1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                  a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                  haste, and will have to go back & check the
                  names of the planes for accuracy.)

                  In the next chapter following that one (THE
                  SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                  go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                  of the chapter:

                  p. 197

                  Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                  you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                  into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                  of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                  you will then know for yourself. [....]

                  p. 199

                  "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                  speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                  among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                  serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                  creations throughout the seven spheres."

                  Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                  by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                  once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                  other time mentions seven spheres.

                  It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                  the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                  etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                  place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                  I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                  Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                  be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                  during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                  a total of only seven planets.

                  As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                  starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                  notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                  when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                  and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                  1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                  take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                  the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                  (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                  materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                  was already known to history? How much was in
                  the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                  How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                  How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                  how much of the material had actually come direct
                  from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                  (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                  This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                  so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                  history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                  other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                  Etznab

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                  Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                  "Body"

                  Hello Etznab,

                  You make some good points and have

                  brought up more information to point

                  out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                  I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                  and D.W.T.M. later.

                  It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                  Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                  Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                  Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                  their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                  "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                  overlook this point. And, look at how

                  many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                  to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                  singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                  is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                  D

                  Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                  under Klemp's rule(s)!

                  BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                  actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                  is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                  Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

                  become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                  or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                  being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                  becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                  by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                  "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                  on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                  you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                  Prometheus

                  p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                  LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                  where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                  resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                  Plane!

                  Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                  thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                  Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                  with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                  Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                  [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                  Etznab wrote:

                  I would like to know the difference between

                  Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                  the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                  about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

                  The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                  a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                  D

                  Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                  This is something I've been contemplating

                  for some time: What is different with the two

                  types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                  about this subject).

                  There's another thing on this subject, and it

                  has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                  I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                  body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                  Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                  any of the other lower world bodies where there

                  are many different ones - including the physical

                  body.

                  So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                  Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                  only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                  Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                  Something like another dimension.

                  Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                  and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                  the Living Eck Master become so important?

                  Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                  to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                  the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                  understanding is that the astral body is limited

                  to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                  transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                  to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                  Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                  it reads like that was his first vis
                  it. However, in

                  the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                  Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                  already!

                  ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                  A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                  Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                  to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                  D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                  T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                  getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                  Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                  Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                  the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

                  only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                  quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                  Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                  Fang account and the year 1957.

                  ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                  I wonder, were those two different books, the

                  two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                  experience?

                  BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                  online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                  Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                  entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                  Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                  Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                  on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                  Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                  A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                  I've
                  decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                  books and read from the beginning, looking at

                  how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                  the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                  this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                  had escaped me up until now.

                  Etznab

                  HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                  Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                  is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                  chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                  or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                  his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                  of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                  meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                  Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                  with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                  than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                  Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                  (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                  of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                  teach and other "believers" experience!

                  Prometheus

                  Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                  Hello All,

                  It was bad enough that HK sold

                  his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                  portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                  Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                  0D

                  But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                  portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                  The truth has (once again) been

                  embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                  no doubt, likes this rendition because

                  it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                  this drawing looks more "sketch"

                  like than portrait like!

                  What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                  a more modern, shaved look, and

                  does not appear as thin as it really

                  is (the inside portion of his ear is

                  different too).

                  When looking at the front cover photo,

                  of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                  World of ECKankar" we can see that

                  Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                  does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                  makes Klemp look younger.

                  The question ECKists should be asking is,

                  Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                  are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                  followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                  "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                  Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                  rather than having an Astral Plane image!

                  I think it's funny that Klemp names

                  this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                  a "true friend" say such nasty
                  and mean

                  things to you? These RESAs and other

                  H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                  Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                  now they see that there are strings

                  attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                  ship.

                  BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                  you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                  himself, or give it to you... free of

                  charge? Hmmmmmm.

                  On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                  make even more money from his image.

                  HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                  as though he has a big hole running

                  through his head. So, maybe HK could

                  have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                  The chain would go through his ears!

                  He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                  $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                  will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                  he does with portraits, books, etc.

                  Prometheus


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                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Jay, Etznab, and All, Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it s fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that this is
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                    Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                    Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                    fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                    that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                    this is similar to beating a dead horse
                    when sorting out the truth from all the
                    crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                    distracted from the current, now, happenings
                    under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                    Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                    He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                    the hook via his distractions involving
                    Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                    avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                    PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                    the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                    in order to confuse the issue.

                    Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                    but became more and more insane over
                    time. And, look at those "creative" people
                    in business who have scammed thousands
                    of individuals out of their life savings! They
                    even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                    foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                    Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                    expected from a person who paid to be
                    included in "The International Who's Who
                    of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                    why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                    "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                    themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                    Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                    redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                    historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                    EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                    with their current views of society and how
                    it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                    are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                    Masters?

                    BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                    a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                    a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                    actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                    truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                    much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                    Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                    "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                    that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                    as well!

                    As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                    it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                    With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                    said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                    or any other EK Master!

                    FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                    This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                    "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                    the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                    the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                    about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                    to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                    looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                    happens because asking too many questions shows
                    spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                    in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                    comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                    answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                    the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                    This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                    works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                    or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                    within the Satsang Society.

                    Prometheus

                    Jay wrote:

                    Dear Etznab

                    Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                    its a fictional piece based on the well known
                    metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                    I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                    features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                    multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                    in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                    Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                    by clicking on the classes button and then the
                    audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                    them in order as not to get confused of what's
                    being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                    the particular section of Over soul seven and
                    Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                    g'luk

                    Jay

                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                    >
                    >

                    Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                    >
                    Etznab,
                    Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                    >
                    Prometheus,

                    Etznab wrote:
                    > No. I haven't.
                    >
                    > The reference to number seven interests me.
                    > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                    > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                    > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                    > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                    > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                    > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                    > to speak. Examples:
                    >
                    > p. 156
                    >
                    > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                    > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                    > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                    > all!"
                    >
                    > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                    > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                    > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                    > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                    > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                    >
                    > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                    > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                    > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                    > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                    > the same book.
                    >
                    > p. 195
                    >
                    > "When I want to show the world my highest
                    > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                    > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                    > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                    > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                    > final for he represents my power in the seven
                    > lower worlds."
                    >
                    > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                    > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                    >
                    > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                    > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                    > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                    > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                    > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                    > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                    > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                    >
                    > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                    >
                    > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                    > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                    > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                    > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                    > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                    > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                    > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                    > book would mention this many and then the
                    > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                    > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                    > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                    > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                    >
                    > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                    > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                    > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                    > of the chapter:
                    >
                    > p. 197
                    >
                    > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                    > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                    > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                    > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                    > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                    >
                    > p. 199
                    >
                    > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                    > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                    > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                    > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                    > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                    >
                    > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                    > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                    > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                    > other time mentions seven spheres.
                    >
                    > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                    > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                    > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                    > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                    >
                    > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                    > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                    > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                    > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                    > a total of only seven planets.
                    >
                    > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                    > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                    > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                    > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                    > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                    > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                    > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                    > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                    > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                    > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                    > was already known to history? How much was in
                    > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                    > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                    > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                    > how much of the material had actually come direct
                    > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                    > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                    >
                    > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                    > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                    > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                    > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                    >
                    > Etznab
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                    > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                    > "Body"
                    >
                    > Hello Etznab,
                    >
                    > You make some good points and have
                    >
                    > brought up more information to point
                    >
                    > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                    >
                    > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                    >
                    > and D.W.T.M. later.
                    >
                    > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                    >
                    > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                    >
                    > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                    >
                    > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                    >
                    > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                    >
                    > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                    >
                    > overlook this point. And, look at how
                    >
                    > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                    >
                    > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                    >
                    > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                    >
                    > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                    > D
                    >
                    > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                    >
                    > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                    >
                    > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                    >
                    > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                    >
                    > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                    >
                    > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                    >
                    > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                    >
                    > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                    >
                    > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                    >
                    > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                    >
                    > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                    >
                    > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                    >
                    > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                    >
                    > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                    >
                    > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                    >
                    > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                    >
                    > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                    >
                    > Plane!
                    >
                    > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                    >
                    > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                    >
                    > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                    >
                    > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                    >
                    > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                    >
                    > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                    >
                    > Etznab wrote:
                    >
                    > I would like to know the difference between
                    >
                    > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                    >
                    > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                    >
                    > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                    >
                    > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                    >
                    > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                    > D
                    >
                    > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                    >
                    > This is something I've been contemplating
                    >
                    > for some time: What is different with the two
                    >
                    > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                    >
                    > about this subject).
                    >
                    > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                    >
                    > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                    >
                    > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                    >
                    > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                    >
                    > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                    >
                    > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                    >
                    > are many different ones - including the physical
                    >
                    > body.
                    >
                    > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                    >
                    > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                    >
                    > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                    >
                    > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                    >
                    > Something like another dimension.
                    >
                    > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                    >
                    > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                    >
                    > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                    >
                    > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                    >
                    > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                    >
                    > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                    >
                    > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                    >
                    > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                    >
                    > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                    >
                    > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                    >
                    > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                    >
                    > it reads like that was his first vis
                    > it. However, in
                    >
                    > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                    >
                    > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                    >
                    > already!
                    >
                    > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                    >
                    > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                    >
                    > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                    >
                    > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                    >
                    > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                    >
                    > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                    >
                    > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                    >
                    > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                    >
                    > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                    >
                    > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                    >
                    > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                    >
                    > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                    >
                    > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                    >
                    > Fang account and the year 1957.
                    >
                    > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                    >
                    > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                    >
                    > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                    >
                    > experience?
                    >
                    > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                    >
                    > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                    >
                    > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                    >
                    > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                    >
                    > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                    >
                    > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                    >
                    > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                    >
                    > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                    >
                    > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                    >
                    > I've
                    > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                    >
                    > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                    >
                    > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                    >
                    > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                    >
                    > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                    >
                    > had escaped me up until now.
                    >
                    > Etznab
                    >
                    > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                    >
                    > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                    >
                    > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                    >
                    > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                    >
                    > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                    >
                    > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                    >
                    > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                    >
                    > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                    >
                    > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                    >
                    > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                    >
                    > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                    >
                    > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                    >
                    > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                    >
                    > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                    >
                    > teach and other "believers" experience!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    >
                    > It was bad enough that HK sold
                    >
                    > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                    >
                    > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                    >
                    > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                    > 0D
                    >
                    > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                    >
                    > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                    >
                    > The truth has (once again) been
                    >
                    > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                    >
                    > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                    >
                    > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                    >
                    > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                    >
                    > like than portrait like!
                    >
                    > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                    >
                    > a more modern, shaved look, and
                    >
                    > does not appear as thin as it really
                    >
                    > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                    >
                    > different too).
                    >
                    > When looking at the front cover photo,
                    >
                    > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                    >
                    > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                    >
                    > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                    >
                    > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                    >
                    > makes Klemp look younger.
                    >
                    > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                    >
                    > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                    >
                    > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                    >
                    > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                    >
                    > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                    >
                    > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                    >
                    > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                    >
                    > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                    >
                    > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                    >
                    > a "true friend" say such nasty
                    > and mean
                    >
                    > things to you? These RESAs and other
                    >
                    > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                    >
                    > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                    >
                    > now they see that there are strings
                    >
                    > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                    >
                    > ship.
                    >
                    > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                    >
                    > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                    >
                    > himself, or give it to you... free of
                    >
                    > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                    >
                    > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                    >
                    > make even more money from his image.
                    >
                    > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                    >
                    > as though he has a big hole running
                    >
                    > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                    >
                    > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                    >
                    > The chain would go through his ears!
                    >
                    > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                    >
                    > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                    >
                    > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                    >
                    > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                    >
                    >
                    > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                    >
                  • Jason Mc Dermott
                    Hi Prometheus Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT s or HK s stuff being that
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                      Hi Prometheus

                      Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.

                      Jay


                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                      Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                      Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                      fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                      that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                      this is similar to beating a dead horse
                      when sorting out the truth from all the
                      crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                      distracted from the current, now, happenings
                      under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                      Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                      He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                      the hook via his distractions involving
                      Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                      avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                      PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                      the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                      in order to confuse the issue.

                      Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                      but became more and more insane over
                      time. And, look at those "creative" people
                      in business who have scammed thousands
                      of individuals out of their life savings! They
                      even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                      foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                      Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                      expected from a person who paid to be
                      included in "The International Who's Who
                      of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                      why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                      "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                      themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                      Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                      redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                      historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                      EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                      with their current views of society and how
                      it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                      are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                      Masters?

                      BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                      a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                      a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                      actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                      truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                      much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                      Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                      "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                      that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                      as well!

                      As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                      it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                      With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                      said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                      or any other EK Master!

                      FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                      This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                      "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                      the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                      the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                      about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                      to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                      looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                      happens because asking too many questions shows
                      spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                      in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                      comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                      answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                      the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                      This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                      works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                      or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                      within the Satsang Society.

                      Prometheus

                      Jay wrote:

                      Dear Etznab

                      Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                      its a fictional piece based on the well known
                      metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                      I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                      features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                      multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                      in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                      Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                      by clicking on the classes button and then the
                      audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                      them in order as not to get confused of what's
                      being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                      the particular section of Over soul seven and
                      Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                      g'luk

                      Jay

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                      > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>

                      >
                      >

                      Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                      >
                      Etznab,
                      Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                      >
                      Prometheus,

                      Etznab wrote:
                      > No. I haven't.
                      >
                      > The reference to number seven interests me.
                      > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                      > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                      > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                      > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                      > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                      > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                      > to speak. Examples:
                      >
                      > p. 156
                      >
                      > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                      > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                      > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                      > all!"
                      >
                      > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                      > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                      > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                      > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                      > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                      >
                      > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                      > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                      > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                      > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                      > the same book.
                      >
                      > p. 195
                      >
                      > "When I want to show the world my highest
                      > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                      > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                      > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                      > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                      > final for he represents my power in the seven
                      > lower worlds."
                      >
                      > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                      > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                      >
                      > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                      > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                      > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                      > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                      > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                      > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                      > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                      >
                      > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                      >
                      > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                      > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                      > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                      > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                      > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                      > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                      > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                      > book would mention this many and then the
                      > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                      > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                      > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                      > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                      >
                      > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                      > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                      > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                      > of the chapter:
                      >
                      > p. 197
                      >
                      > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                      > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                      > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                      > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                      > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                      >
                      > p. 199
                      >
                      > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                      > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                      > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                      > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                      > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                      >
                      > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                      > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                      > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                      > other time mentions seven spheres.
                      >
                      > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                      > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                      > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                      > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                      >
                      > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                      > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                      > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                      > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                      > a total of only seven planets.
                      >
                      > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                      > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                      > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                      > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                      > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                      > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                      > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                      > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                      > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                      > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                      > was already known to history? How much was in
                      > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                      > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                      > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                      > how much of the material had actually come direct
                      > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                      > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                      >
                      > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                      > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                      > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                      > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                      > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                      > "Body"
                      >
                      > Hello Etznab,
                      >
                      > You make some good points and have
                      >
                      > brought up more information to point
                      >
                      > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                      >
                      > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                      >
                      > and D.W.T.M. later.
                      >
                      > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                      >
                      > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                      >
                      > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                      >
                      > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                      >
                      > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                      >
                      > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                      >
                      > overlook this point. And, look at how
                      >
                      > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                      >
                      > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                      >
                      > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                      >
                      > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                      > D
                      >
                      > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                      >
                      > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                      >
                      > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                      >
                      > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                      >
                      > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                      >
                      > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                      >
                      > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                      >
                      > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                      >
                      > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                      >
                      > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                      >
                      > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                      >
                      > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                      >
                      > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                      >
                      > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                      >
                      > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                      >
                      > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                      >
                      > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                      >
                      > Plane!
                      >
                      > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                      >
                      > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                      >
                      > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                      >
                      > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                      >
                      > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                      >
                      > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                      >
                      > Etznab wrote:
                      >
                      > I would like to know the difference between
                      >
                      > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                      >
                      > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                      >
                      > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                      >
                      > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                      >
                      > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                      > D
                      >
                      > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                      >
                      > This is something I've been contemplating
                      >
                      > for some time: What is different with the two
                      >
                      > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                      >
                      > about this subject).
                      >
                      > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                      >
                      > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                      >
                      > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                      >
                      > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                      >
                      > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                      >
                      > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                      >
                      > are many different ones - including the physical
                      >
                      > body.
                      >
                      > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                      >
                      > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                      >
                      > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                      >
                      > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                      >
                      > Something like another dimension.
                      >
                      > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                      >
                      > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                      >
                      > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                      >
                      > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                      >
                      > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                      >
                      > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                      >
                      > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                      >
                      > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                      >
                      > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                      >
                      > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                      >
                      > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                      >
                      > it reads like that was his first vis
                      > it. However, in
                      >
                      > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                      >
                      > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                      >
                      > already!
                      >
                      > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                      >
                      > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                      >
                      > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                      >
                      > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                      >
                      > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                      >
                      > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                      >
                      > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                      >
                      > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                      >
                      > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                      >
                      > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                      >
                      > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                      >
                      > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                      >
                      > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                      >
                      > Fang account and the year 1957.
                      >
                      > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                      >
                      > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                      >
                      > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                      >
                      > experience?
                      >
                      > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                      >
                      > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                      >
                      > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                      >
                      > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                      >
                      > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                      >
                      > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                      >
                      > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                      >
                      > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                      >
                      > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                      >
                      > I've
                      > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                      >
                      > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                      >
                      > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                      >
                      > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                      >
                      > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                      >
                      > had escaped me up until now.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                      >
                      > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                      >
                      > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                      >
                      > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                      >
                      > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                      >
                      > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                      >
                      > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                      >
                      > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                      >
                      > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                      >
                      > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                      >
                      > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                      >
                      > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                      >
                      > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                      >
                      > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                      >
                      > teach and other "believers" experience!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      >
                      > It was bad enough that HK sold
                      >
                      > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                      >
                      > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                      >
                      > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                      > 0D
                      >
                      > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                      >
                      > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                      >
                      > The truth has (once again) been
                      >
                      > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                      >
                      > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                      >
                      > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                      >
                      > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                      >
                      > like than portrait like!
                      >
                      > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                      >
                      > a more modern, shaved look, and
                      >
                      > does not appear as thin as it really
                      >
                      > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                      >
                      > different too).
                      >
                      > When looking at the front cover photo,
                      >
                      > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                      >
                      > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                      >
                      > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                      >
                      > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                      >
                      > makes Klemp look younger.
                      >
                      > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                      >
                      > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                      >
                      > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                      >
                      > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                      >
                      > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                      >
                      > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                      >
                      > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                      >
                      > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                      >
                      > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                      >
                      > a "true friend" say such nasty
                      > and mean
                      >
                      > things to you? These RESAs and other
                      >
                      > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                      >
                      > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                      >
                      > now they see that there are strings
                      >
                      > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                      >
                      > ship.
                      >
                      > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                      >
                      > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                      >
                      > himself, or give it to you... free of
                      >
                      > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                      >
                      > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                      >
                      > make even more money from his image.
                      >
                      > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                      >
                      > as though he has a big hole running
                      >
                      > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                      >
                      > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                      >
                      > The chain would go through his ears!
                      >
                      > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                      >
                      > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                      >
                      > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                      >
                      > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                      >
                      >
                      > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                      >


                      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                    • noneckster
                      RESPONDING TO THE THREAD: I think it s worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                        RESPONDING TO THE THREAD:

                        I think it's worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very core. To reread eck books hoping to get some wisdom is foolish imo. It's like drinking Koolaide that tastes like a sugary drink, but may be tainted with poison. : ) Current eckists are just willfully ignorant. There really isn't much of an excuse for their behavior, at this point. If Iranians can communicate and find out information via the internet and cell phone, then access in other Democracies around the world is a click away. Those practicing eckist of today are simply CHOOSING to not know all the facts.

                        Before the internet I could understand how it was easier to get duped, conned. The past is the past, for sure, but to not know the past, of course, is to increase the likelihood of repeating it. The study of bad cultic and religious practices is a very important activity IMO.

                        Non eckster ; )

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Prometheus
                        >
                        > Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.
                        >
                        > Jay
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                        > Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                        > fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                        > that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                        > this is similar to beating a dead horse
                        > when sorting out the truth from all the
                        > crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                        > distracted from the current, now, happenings
                        > under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.
                        >
                        > Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                        > He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                        > the hook via his distractions involving
                        > Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                        > avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                        > PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                        > the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                        > in order to confuse the issue.
                        >
                        > Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                        > but became more and more insane over
                        > time. And, look at those "creative" people
                        > in business who have scammed thousands
                        > of individuals out of their life savings! They
                        > even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                        > foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                        > Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                        > expected from a person who paid to be
                        > included in "The International Who's Who
                        > of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                        > why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                        > "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                        > themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                        > Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                        > redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                        > historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                        > EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                        > with their current views of society and how
                        > it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                        > are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                        > Masters?
                        >
                        > BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                        > a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                        > a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                        > actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                        > truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                        > much closer to Fiction than to "truth."
                        >
                        > Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                        > "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                        > that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                        > as well!
                        >
                        > As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                        > it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                        > With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                        > said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                        > or any other EK Master!
                        >
                        > FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                        > This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                        > "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                        > the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                        > the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                        > about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                        > to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                        > looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                        > happens because asking too many questions shows
                        > spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                        > in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                        > comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                        > answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                        > the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                        > This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                        > works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                        > or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                        > within the Satsang Society.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > Jay wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Etznab
                        >
                        > Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                        > its a fictional piece based on the well known
                        > metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                        > I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                        > features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                        > multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                        > in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                        > Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                        > by clicking on the classes button and then the
                        > audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                        > them in order as not to get confused of what's
                        > being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                        > the particular section of Over soul seven and
                        > Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.
                        >
                        > g'luk
                        >
                        > Jay
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                        > > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                        > >
                        > Etznab,
                        > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                        > >
                        > Prometheus,
                        >
                        > Etznab wrote:
                        > > No. I haven't.
                        > >
                        > > The reference to number seven interests me.
                        > > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                        > > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                        > > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                        > > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                        > > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                        > > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                        > > to speak. Examples:
                        > >
                        > > p. 156
                        > >
                        > > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                        > > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                        > > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                        > > all!"
                        > >
                        > > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                        > > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                        > > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                        > > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                        > > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                        > >
                        > > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                        > > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                        > > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                        > > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                        > > the same book.
                        > >
                        > > p. 195
                        > >
                        > > "When I want to show the world my highest
                        > > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                        > > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                        > > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                        > > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                        > > final for he represents my power in the seven
                        > > lower worlds."
                        > >
                        > > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                        > > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                        > >
                        > > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                        > > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                        > > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                        > > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                        > > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                        > > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                        > > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                        > >
                        > > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                        > >
                        > > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                        > > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                        > > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                        > > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                        > > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                        > > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                        > > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                        > > book would mention this many and then the
                        > > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                        > > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                        > > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                        > > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                        > >
                        > > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                        > > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                        > > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                        > > of the chapter:
                        > >
                        > > p. 197
                        > >
                        > > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                        > > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                        > > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                        > > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                        > > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                        > >
                        > > p. 199
                        > >
                        > > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                        > > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                        > > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                        > > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                        > > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                        > >
                        > > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                        > > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                        > > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                        > > other time mentions seven spheres.
                        > >
                        > > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                        > > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                        > > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                        > > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                        > >
                        > > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                        > > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                        > > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                        > > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                        > > a total of only seven planets.
                        > >
                        > > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                        > > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                        > > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                        > > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                        > > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                        > > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                        > > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                        > > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                        > > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                        > > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                        > > was already known to history? How much was in
                        > > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                        > > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                        > > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                        > > how much of the material had actually come direct
                        > > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                        > > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                        > >
                        > > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                        > > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                        > > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                        > > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                        > >
                        > > Etznab
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                        > > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                        > > "Body"
                        > >
                        > > Hello Etznab,
                        > >
                        > > You make some good points and have
                        > >
                        > > brought up more information to point
                        > >
                        > > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                        > >
                        > > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                        > >
                        > > and D.W.T.M. later.
                        > >
                        > > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                        > >
                        > > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                        > >
                        > > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                        > >
                        > > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                        > >
                        > > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                        > >
                        > > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                        > >
                        > > overlook this point. And, look at how
                        > >
                        > > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                        > >
                        > > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                        > >
                        > > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                        > >
                        > > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                        > > D
                        > >
                        > > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                        > >
                        > > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                        > >
                        > > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                        > >
                        > > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                        > >
                        > > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                        > >
                        > > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                        > >
                        > > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                        > >
                        > > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                        > >
                        > > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                        > >
                        > > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                        > >
                        > > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                        > >
                        > > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                        > >
                        > > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                        > >
                        > > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                        > >
                        > > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                        > >
                        > > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                        > >
                        > > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                        > >
                        > > Plane!
                        > >
                        > > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                        > >
                        > > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                        > >
                        > > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                        > >
                        > > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                        > >
                        > > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                        > >
                        > > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                        > >
                        > > Etznab wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I would like to know the difference between
                        > >
                        > > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                        > >
                        > > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                        > >
                        > > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                        > >
                        > > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                        > >
                        > > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                        > > D
                        > >
                        > > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                        > >
                        > > This is something I've been contemplating
                        > >
                        > > for some time: What is different with the two
                        > >
                        > > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                        > >
                        > > about this subject).
                        > >
                        > > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                        > >
                        > > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                        > >
                        > > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                        > >
                        > > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                        > >
                        > > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                        > >
                        > > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                        > >
                        > > are many different ones - including the physical
                        > >
                        > > body.
                        > >
                        > > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                        > >
                        > > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                        > >
                        > > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                        > >
                        > > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                        > >
                        > > Something like another dimension.
                        > >
                        > > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                        > >
                        > > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                        > >
                        > > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                        > >
                        > > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                        > >
                        > > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                        > >
                        > > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                        > >
                        > > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                        > >
                        > > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                        > >
                        > > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                        > >
                        > > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                        > >
                        > > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                        > >
                        > > it reads like that was his first vis
                        > > it. However, in
                        > >
                        > > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                        > >
                        > > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                        > >
                        > > already!
                        > >
                        > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                        > >
                        > > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                        > >
                        > > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                        > >
                        > > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                        > >
                        > > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                        > >
                        > > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                        > >
                        > > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                        > >
                        > > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                        > >
                        > > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                        > >
                        > > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                        > >
                        > > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                        > >
                        > > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                        > >
                        > > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                        > >
                        > > Fang account and the year 1957.
                        > >
                        > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                        > >
                        > > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                        > >
                        > > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                        > >
                        > > experience?
                        > >
                        > > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                        > >
                        > > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                        > >
                        > > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                        > >
                        > > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                        > >
                        > > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                        > >
                        > > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                        > >
                        > > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                        > >
                        > > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                        > >
                        > > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                        > >
                        > > I've
                        > > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                        > >
                        > > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                        > >
                        > > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                        > >
                        > > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                        > >
                        > > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                        > >
                        > > had escaped me up until now.
                        > >
                        > > Etznab
                        > >
                        > > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                        > >
                        > > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                        > >
                        > > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                        > >
                        > > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                        > >
                        > > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                        > >
                        > > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                        > >
                        > > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                        > >
                        > > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                        > >
                        > > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                        > >
                        > > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                        > >
                        > > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                        > >
                        > > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                        > >
                        > > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                        > >
                        > > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                        > >
                        > > teach and other "believers" experience!
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                        > >
                        > > Hello All,
                        > >
                        > > It was bad enough that HK sold
                        > >
                        > > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                        > >
                        > > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                        > >
                        > > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                        > > 0D
                        > >
                        > > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                        > >
                        > > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                        > >
                        > > The truth has (once again) been
                        > >
                        > > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                        > >
                        > > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                        > >
                        > > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                        > >
                        > > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                        > >
                        > > like than portrait like!
                        > >
                        > > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                        > >
                        > > a more modern, shaved look, and
                        > >
                        > > does not appear as thin as it really
                        > >
                        > > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                        > >
                        > > different too).
                        > >
                        > > When looking at the front cover photo,
                        > >
                        > > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                        > >
                        > > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                        > >
                        > > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                        > >
                        > > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                        > >
                        > > makes Klemp look younger.
                        > >
                        > > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                        > >
                        > > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                        > >
                        > > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                        > >
                        > > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                        > >
                        > > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                        > >
                        > > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                        > >
                        > > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                        > >
                        > > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                        > >
                        > > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                        > >
                        > > a "true friend" say such nasty
                        > > and mean
                        > >
                        > > things to you? These RESAs and other
                        > >
                        > > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                        > >
                        > > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                        > >
                        > > now they see that there are strings
                        > >
                        > > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                        > >
                        > > ship.
                        > >
                        > > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                        > >
                        > > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                        > >
                        > > himself, or give it to you... free of
                        > >
                        > > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                        > >
                        > > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                        > >
                        > > make even more money from his image.
                        > >
                        > > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                        > >
                        > > as though he has a big hole running
                        > >
                        > > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                        > >
                        > > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                        > >
                        > > The chain would go through his ears!
                        > >
                        > > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                        > >
                        > > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                        > >
                        > > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                        > >
                        > > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Jay and All, Marman is connected to Klemp because he is an EKist (7th Initiate) and claims to be a long-time friend of HK s. Marman (Doug) is an
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                          Hello Jay and All,
                          Marman is connected to Klemp
                          because he is an EKist (7th Initiate)
                          and claims to be a long-time friend
                          of HK's. Marman (Doug) is an apologist
                          for both Klemp and PT, and has a
                          following from an EK fringe group.
                          Just read some of DM's older dialogue
                          and arguments, especially, with David
                          Lane. Steve Runfeldt (EK Internet PR
                          Guru) is another EK apologist who, also,
                          rates a D- when debating (online) with
                          David Lane.

                          BTW- I think that I first read Jane Roberts'
                          books in the early 1970's and once was
                          tempted to stop by for a short visit with
                          her and her husband in Binghamton (since
                          I was passing through at the time). But,
                          my passenger didn't want to stop. I got
                          the impression from reading her books
                          that writing, for Jane, was like a form of
                          therapy that helped to give her some sort
                          of balance, peace of mind, and meaning
                          for her life that helped it all to make sense.
                          From her descriptions, about herself, she
                          came across as having a lot of nervous
                          energy and smoking her cigarettes seemed
                          to calm her. 8th Initiate Millie (Workman)
                          Moore was much the same, but used the
                          spoken word versus the written word.

                          BTW-What do you think about Marman's
                          TS comments about Rebazar and the Holocaust
                          "probably" being myth?

                          Prometheus


                          Jay wrote:

                          Hi Prometheus

                          Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word
                          but how is Marman connected with HK?..and
                          yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                          being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over
                          7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence
                          of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth
                          stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab
                          had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking
                          back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past
                          is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the
                          present.

                          Jay

                          From: prometheus
                          Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                          Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                          Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                          fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                          that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                          this is similar to beating a dead horse
                          when sorting out the truth from all the
                          crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                          distracted from the current, now, happenings
                          under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                          Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                          He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                          the hook via his distractions involving
                          Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                          avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                          PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                          the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                          in order to confuse the issue.

                          Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                          but became more and more insane over
                          time. And, look at those "creative" people
                          in business who have scammed thousands
                          of individuals out of their life savings! They
                          even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                          foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                          Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                          expected from a person who paid to be
                          included in "The International Who's Who
                          of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                          why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                          "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                          themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                          Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                          redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                          historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                          EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                          with their current views of society and how
                          it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                          are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                          Masters?

                          BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                          a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                          a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                          actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                          truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                          much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                          Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                          "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                          that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                          as well!

                          As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                          it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                          With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                          said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                          or any other EK Master!

                          FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                          This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                          "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                          the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                          the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                          about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                          to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                          looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                          happens because asking too many questions shows
                          spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                          in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                          comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                          answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                          the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                          This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                          works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                          or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                          within the Satsang Society.

                          Prometheus

                          Jay wrote:

                          Dear Etznab

                          Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                          its a fictional piece based on the well known
                          metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                          I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                          features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                          multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                          in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                          Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                          by clicking on the classes button and then the
                          audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                          them in order as not to get confused of what's
                          being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                          the particular section of Over soul seven and
                          Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                          g'luk

                          Jay

                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > From: Jason

                          >
                          >

                          Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                          >
                          Etznab,
                          Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                          >
                          Prometheus,

                          Etznab wrote:
                          > No. I haven't.
                          >
                          > The reference to number seven interests me.
                          > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                          > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                          > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                          > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                          > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                          > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                          > to speak. Examples:
                          >
                          > p. 156
                          >
                          > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                          > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                          > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                          > all!"
                          >
                          > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                          > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                          > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                          > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                          > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                          >
                          > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                          > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                          > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                          > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                          > the same book.
                          >
                          > p. 195
                          >
                          > "When I want to show the world my highest
                          > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                          > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                          > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                          > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                          > final for he represents my power in the seven
                          > lower worlds."
                          >
                          > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                          > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                          >
                          > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                          > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                          > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                          > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                          > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                          > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                          > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                          >
                          > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                          >
                          > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                          > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                          > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                          > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                          > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                          > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                          > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                          > book would mention this many and then the
                          > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                          > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                          > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                          > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                          >
                          > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                          > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                          > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                          > of the chapter:
                          >
                          > p. 197
                          >
                          > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                          > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                          > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                          > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                          > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                          >
                          > p. 199
                          >
                          > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                          > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                          > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                          > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                          > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                          >
                          > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                          > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                          > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                          > other time mentions seven spheres.
                          >
                          > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                          > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                          > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                          > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                          >
                          > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                          > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                          > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                          > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                          > a total of only seven planets.
                          >
                          > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                          > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                          > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                          > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                          > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                          > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                          > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                          > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                          > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                          > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                          > was already known to history? How much was in
                          > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                          > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                          > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                          > how much of the material had actually come direct
                          > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                          > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                          >
                          > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                          > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                          > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                          > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          I m not so sure the past is a dead horse . In fact, I would call it very much alive and is the basis for many people s present & future beliefs about numerous
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                            I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".
                            In fact, I would call it very much alive and is
                            the basis for many people's present & future
                            beliefs about numerous things.

                            Going back and clarifying the past is what
                            I am seeking to do, by isolating the context
                            of those many stories I have read and heard
                            told in Eckankar books and discussions.

                            This is something I've been wanting to do
                            for a long time. Establish the "context". For
                            example, What is the literal truth and what
                            is not?

                            Here is why I think this important. When I
                            can prove beyond a doubt that something is
                            fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that
                            regard. It's power over me would not be the
                            same, not have the same influence & power
                            over my belief system and psyche as some-
                            thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With
                            myth and fiction - knowing a source is that -
                            it leaves me with the liberty to explore further
                            and to learn how the story came about in the
                            first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the
                            people who take pseudo religion and history
                            to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.
                            I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &
                            infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my
                            conscience, living with the thought I am know-
                            ingly spreading fact for fiction.

                            BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.
                            I'm just now getting around to reading mail.

                            Etznab





                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                            Soul "Body"








                            Hi Prometheus

                            Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman
                            connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                            being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just
                            mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane
                            Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had
                            in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a
                            dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk
                            in the present.

                            Jay

                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                            "Body"













                            Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,

                            Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's

                            fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam

                            that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that

                            this is similar to beating a dead horse

                            when sorting out the truth from all the

                            crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be

                            distracted from the current, now, happenings

                            under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.


                            =0
                            A
                            Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.

                            He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off

                            the hook via his distractions involving

                            Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,

                            avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon

                            PT's "creative writing" by manipulating

                            the lies and myth that Twitchell created

                            in order to confuse the issue.



                            Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,

                            but became more and more insane over

                            time. And, look at those "creative" people

                            in business who have scammed thousands

                            of individuals out of their life savings! They

                            even scammed hospitals and non-profit

                            foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!

                            Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's

                            expected from a person who paid to be

                            included in "The International Who's Who

                            of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,

                            why do EKists need Klemp when they can

                            "create" their own reality/destiny and make

                            themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a

                            Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is

                            redundant and lives in the past by quoting

                            historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote

                            EK Masters, still living in a physical body,

                            with their current views of society and how

                            it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where

                            are these relevant "insights" from these EK

                            Masters?



                            BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote

                            a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes

                            a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,

                            actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real

                            truth about Marman's book is that it comes

                            much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                            Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that

                            "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and

                            that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"

                            as well!



                            As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"

                            it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues

                            With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever

                            said/written about his discussions with Rebazar

                            or any other EK Master!



                            FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!

                            This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the

                            "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as

                            the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as

                            the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned

                            about this "upper region," although, it is referred

                            to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-

                            looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This

                            happens because asking too many questions shows

                            spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and

                            in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"

                            comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for

                            answers. However, all "answers" must agree with

                            the same text that contain the conflicting info!

                            This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma

                            works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,

                            or they're Black Ball
                            ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"

                            within the Satsang Society.



                            Prometheus



                            Jay wrote:



                            Dear Etznab



                            Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,

                            its a fictional piece based on the well known

                            metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..

                            I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson

                            features it as part of his hypothesis as us having

                            multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,

                            in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher

                            Consciousness Society website. You'll find them

                            by clicking on the classes button and then the

                            audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to

                            them in order as not to get confused of what's

                            being discussed and explained by Johnson,

                            the particular section of Over soul seven and

                            Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                            g'luk



                            Jay



                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > ____________ _________ _________ __

                            > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                            >

                            >



                            Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                            >

                            Etznab,

                            Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                            >

                            Prometheus,



                            Etznab wrote:

                            > No. I haven't.

                            >

                            > The reference to number seven interests me.

                            > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are

                            > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v
                            ersion of

                            > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave

                            > me the impression of eight basic planes, where

                            > the eighth (and highest) was considered above

                            > them all. Like, something on another level, so

                            > to speak. Examples:

                            >

                            > p. 156

                            >

                            > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet

                            > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres

                            > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear

                            > all!"

                            >

                            > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,

                            > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm

                            > not sure. That quote is on the second page

                            > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.

                            > Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                            >

                            > For some reason, I'm under the impression

                            > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from

                            > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the

                            > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in

                            > the same book.

                            >

                            > p. 195

                            >

                            > "When I want to show the world my highest

                            > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.

                            > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the

                            > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will

                            > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree

                            > final for he represents my power in the seven

                            > lower worlds."

                            >

                            > [That was fro
                            m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.

                            > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                            >

                            > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in

                            > my earlier post. The being supposed to have

                            > spoken those words was either Anami, or the

                            > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could

                            > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that

                            > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.

                            > Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                            >

                            > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                            >

                            > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.

                            > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?

                            > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental

                            > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami

                            > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but

                            > I suspect the earlier models had around eight

                            > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's

                            > book would mention this many and then the

                            > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give

                            > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative

                            > haste, and will have to go back & check the

                            > names of the planes for accuracy.)

                            >

                            > In the next chapter following that one (THE

                            > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs

                            > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph

                            > of the chapter:

                            >

                            > p. 1
                            97

                            >

                            > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take

                            > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond

                            > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth

                            > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So

                            > you will then know for yourself. [....]

                            >

                            > p. 199

                            >

                            > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,

                            > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are

                            > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must

                            > serve to take the message of the divine to all my

                            > creations throughout the seven spheres."

                            >

                            > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And

                            > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,

                            > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-

                            > other time mentions seven spheres.

                            >

                            > It was the context from those chapters that gave me

                            > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",

                            > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a

                            > place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                            >

                            > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.

                            > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to

                            > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even

                            > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in

                            > a total of only seven planets.

                            >

                            > As I begin re
                            ading through the Eck books again -

                            > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious

                            > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,

                            > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing

                            > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's

                            > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to

                            > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand

                            > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was

                            > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                            > materials. Like, how much of it was material that

                            > was already known to history? How much was in

                            > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D

                            > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?

                            > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,

                            > how much of the material had actually come direct

                            > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens

                            > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                            >

                            > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and

                            > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,

                            > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with

                            > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                            >

                            > Etznab

                            >

                            > -----Original Message-----

                            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>

                            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                            > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20
                            09 1:41 pm

                            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.
                            the Soul

                            > "Body"

                            >

                            > Hello Etznab,

                            >

                            > You make some good points and have

                            >

                            > brought up more information to point

                            >

                            > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                            >

                            > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                            >

                            > and D.W.T.M. later.

                            >

                            > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                            >

                            > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                            >

                            > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                            >

                            > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                            >

                            > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                            >

                            > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                            >

                            > overlook this point. And, look at how

                            >

                            > many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                            >

                            > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                            >

                            > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                            >

                            > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0

                            > D

                            >

                            > Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                            >

                            > under Klemp's rule(s)!

                            >

                            > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                            >

                            > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                            >

                            > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                            >

                            > Over-Soul and that
                            these Souls need to

                            >

                            > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                            >

                            > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                            >

                            > being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                            >

                            > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                            >

                            > by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                            >

                            > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                            >

                            > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                            >

                            > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                            >

                            > Prometheus

                            >

                            > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                            >

                            > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                            >

                            > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                            >

                            > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                            >

                            > Plane!

                            >

                            > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                            >

                            > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                            >

                            > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                            >

                            > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                            >

                            > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                            >

                            > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                            >

                            > Etznab wrote:

                            >

                            > I would like to know the difference between

                            >

                            > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                            >

                            > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                            >

                            > about the inner=2
                            0form of the Living Eck Master.

                            >

                            > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                            >

                            > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0

                            > D

                            >

                            > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                            >

                            > This is something I've been contemplating

                            >

                            > for some time: What is different with the two

                            >

                            > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                            >

                            > about this subject).

                            >

                            > There's another thing on this subject, and it

                            >

                            > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                            >

                            > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                            >

                            > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                            >

                            > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                            >

                            > any of the other lower world bodies where there

                            >

                            > are many different ones - including the physical

                            >

                            > body.

                            >

                            > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                            >

                            > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                            >

                            > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                            >

                            > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                            >

                            > Something like another dimension.

                            >

                            > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                            >

                            > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                            >

                            > the L
                            iving Eck Master become so important?

                            >

                            > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                            >

                            > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                            >

                            > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                            >

                            > understanding is that the astral body is limited

                            >

                            > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                            >

                            > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                            >

                            > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                            >

                            > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                            >

                            > it reads like that was his first vis

                            > it. However, in

                            >

                            > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                            >

                            > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                            >

                            > already!

                            >

                            > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                            >

                            > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                            >

                            > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                            >

                            > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                            >

                            > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                            >

                            > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                            >

                            > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                            >

                            > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                            >

                            > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                            >

                            > the way to the nameless
                            plane. Anami. & not

                            >

                            > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                            >

                            > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                            >

                            > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                            >

                            > Fang account and the year 1957.

                            >

                            > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                            >

                            > I wonder, were those two different books, the

                            >

                            > two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                            >

                            > experience?

                            >

                            > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                            >

                            > online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                            >

                            > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                            >

                            > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                            >

                            > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                            >

                            > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                            >

                            > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                            >

                            > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                            >

                            > A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                            >

                            > I've

                            > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                            >

                            > books and read from the beginning, looking at

                            >

                            > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                            >

                            > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                            >

                            > this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                            >

                            > had20escaped me up until now.

                            >

                            > Etznab

                            >

                            > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                            >

                            > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                            >

                            > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                            >

                            > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                            >

                            > or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                            >

                            > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                            >

                            > of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                            >

                            > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                            >

                            > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                            >

                            > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                            >

                            > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                            >

                            > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                            >

                            > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                            >

                            > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                            >

                            > teach and other "believers" experience!

                            >

                            > Prometheus

                            >

                            > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                            >

                            > Hello All,

                            >

                            > It was bad enough that HK sold

                            >

                            > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                            >

                            > portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                            >

                            > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).

                            > 0D

                            >

                            > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                            =0
                            A
                            >

                            > portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                            >

                            > The truth has (once again) been

                            >

                            > embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                            >

                            > no doubt, likes this rendition because

                            >

                            > it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                            >

                            > this drawing looks more "sketch"

                            >

                            > like than portrait like!

                            >

                            > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                            >

                            > a more modern, shaved look, and

                            >

                            > does not appear as thin as it really

                            >

                            > is (the inside portion of his ear is

                            >

                            > different too).

                            >

                            > When looking at the front cover photo,

                            >

                            > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                            >

                            > World of ECKankar" we can see that

                            >

                            > Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                            >

                            > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                            >

                            > makes Klemp look younger.

                            >

                            > The question ECKists should be asking is,

                            >

                            > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                            >

                            > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                            >

                            > followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                            >

                            > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                            >

                            > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                            >

                            > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0
                            D

                            >

                            > I think it's funny that Klemp names

                            >

                            > this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                            >

                            > a "true friend" say such nasty

                            > and mean

                            >

                            > things to you? These RESAs and other

                            >

                            > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                            >

                            > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                            >

                            > now they see that there are strings

                            >

                            > attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                            >

                            > ship.

                            >

                            > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                            >

                            > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                            >

                            > himself, or give it to you... free of

                            >

                            > charge? Hmmmmmm.

                            >

                            > On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                            >

                            > make even more money from his image.

                            >

                            > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                            >

                            > as though he has a big hole running

                            >

                            > through his head. So, maybe HK could

                            >

                            > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                            >

                            > The chain would go through his ears!

                            >

                            > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                            >

                            > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                            >

                            > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                            >

                            > he does with portraits, books, etc.

                            >

                            > Prometheus

                            >

                            &
                            gt;

                            > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                            .yahoo.com

                            >

                            >

                            > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                            .yahoo.com

                            >











                            Send instant messages to your online friends
                            http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Typo correction. The following sentence I don t have to have guilt on my conscience, living with the thought I am knowingly spreading fact for fiction.
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                              Typo correction. The following sentence

                              "I don't have to have guilt on my conscience,
                              living with the thought I am knowingly spreading
                              fact for fiction."

                              should read: fiction for fact, instead of fact
                              for fiction.

                              Etznab

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: etznab@...
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 6:47 pm
                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                              Soul "Body"










                              I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".

                              In fact, I would call it very much alive and is

                              the basis for many people's present & future

                              beliefs about numerous things.



                              Going back and clarifying the past is what

                              I am seeking to do, by isolating the context

                              of those many stories I have read and heard

                              told in Eckankar books and discussions.



                              This is something I've been wanting to do

                              for a long time. Establish the "context". For

                              example, What is the literal truth and what

                              is not?



                              Here is why I think this important. When I

                              can prove beyond a doubt that something is

                              fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that

                              regard. It's power over me would not be the

                              same, not have the same influence & power

                              over my belief system and psyche as some-

                              thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With

                              myth and fiction - knowing a source is that
                              -

                              it leaves me with the liberty to explore further

                              and to learn how the story came about in the

                              first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the

                              people who take pseudo religion and history

                              to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.

                              I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &

                              infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my

                              conscience, living with the thought I am know-

                              ingly spreading fact for fiction.



                              BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.

                              I'm just now getting around to reading mail.



                              Etznab



                              -----Original Message-----

                              From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                              Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm

                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the

                              Soul "Body"



                              Hi Prometheus



                              Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman

                              connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff

                              being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just

                              mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane

                              Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had

                              in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a

                              dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk

                              in the present.



                              Jay



                              =0
                              AFrom: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                              Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08

                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul

                              "Body"



                              Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,



                              Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's



                              fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam



                              that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that



                              this is similar to beating a dead horse



                              when sorting out the truth from all the



                              crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be



                              distracted from the current, now, happenings



                              under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.



                              =0

                              A

                              Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.



                              He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off



                              the hook via his distractions involving



                              Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,



                              avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon



                              PT's "creative writing" by manipulating



                              the lies and myth that Twitchell created



                              in order to confuse the issue.



                              Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,



                              but became more and more insane over



                              time. And, look at those "creative" people



                              in business who have scammed thousands



                              of individuals out of their life savings! They



                              even scammed hospitals and non-profit



                              foundations!
                              Very "creative" weren't they!



                              Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's



                              expected from a person who paid to be



                              included in "The International Who's Who



                              of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,



                              why do EKists need Klemp when they can



                              "create" their own reality/destiny and make



                              themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a



                              Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is



                              redundant and lives in the past by quoting



                              historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote



                              EK Masters, still living in a physical body,



                              with their current views of society and how



                              it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where



                              are these relevant "insights" from these EK



                              Masters?



                              BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote



                              a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes



                              a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,



                              actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real



                              truth about Marman's book is that it comes



                              much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                              Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that



                              "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and



                              that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"



                              as well!



                              As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"



                              it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues




                              With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever



                              said/written about his discussions with Rebazar



                              or any other EK Master!



                              FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!



                              This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the



                              "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as



                              the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as



                              the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned



                              about this "upper region," although, it is referred



                              to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-



                              looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This



                              happens because asking too many questions shows



                              spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and



                              in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"



                              comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for



                              answers. However, all "answers" must agree with



                              the same text that contain the conflicting info!



                              This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma



                              works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,



                              or they're Black Ball

                              ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"



                              within the Satsang Society.



                              Prometheus



                              Jay wrote:



                              Dear Etznab



                              Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,



                              its a fictional piece based on the well20known



                              metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..



                              I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson



                              features it as part of his hypothesis as us having



                              multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,



                              in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher



                              Consciousness Society website. You'll find them



                              by clicking on the classes button and then the



                              audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to



                              them in order as not to get confused of what's



                              being discussed and explained by Johnson,



                              the particular section of Over soul seven and



                              Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                              g'luk



                              Jay



                              >



                              >



                              >



                              > ____________ _________ _________ __



                              > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                              >



                              >



                              Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                              >



                              Etznab,



                              Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                              >



                              Prometheus,



                              Etznab wrote:



                              > No. I haven't.



                              >



                              > The reference to number seven interests me.



                              > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are



                              > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v

                              ersion of=0
                              D



                              > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave



                              > me the impression of eight basic planes, where



                              > the eighth (and highest) was considered above



                              > them all. Like, something on another level, so



                              > to speak. Examples:



                              >



                              > p. 156



                              >



                              > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet



                              > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres



                              > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear



                              > all!"



                              >



                              > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,



                              > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm



                              > not sure. That quote is on the second page



                              > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.



                              > Question: Why does he mention seven?]



                              >



                              > For some reason, I'm under the impression



                              > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from



                              > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the



                              > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in



                              > the same book.



                              >



                              > p. 195



                              >



                              > "When I want to show the world my highest



                              > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.



                              > This is my greatest gift and boon.=2
                              0He is the



                              > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will



                              > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree



                              > final for he represents my power in the seven



                              > lower worlds."



                              >



                              > [That was fro

                              m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.



                              > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the



                              >



                              > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in



                              > my earlier post. The being supposed to have



                              > spoken those words was either Anami, or the



                              > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could



                              > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that



                              > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.



                              > Consider the last seven words in that quote:



                              >



                              > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."



                              >



                              > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.



                              > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?



                              > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental



                              > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami



                              > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but



                              > I suspect the earlier models had around eight



                              > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's



                              > book=2
                              0would mention this many and then the



                              > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give



                              > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative



                              > haste, and will have to go back & check the



                              > names of the planes for accuracy.)



                              >



                              > In the next chapter following that one (THE



                              > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs



                              > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph



                              > of the chapter:



                              >



                              > p. 1

                              97



                              >



                              > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take



                              > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond



                              > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth



                              > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So



                              > you will then know for yourself. [....]



                              >



                              > p. 199



                              >



                              > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,



                              > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are



                              > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must



                              > serve to take the message of the divine to all my



                              > creations throughout the seven spheres."



                              >



                              > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And



                              > by non
                              e other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,



                              > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-



                              > other time mentions seven spheres.



                              >



                              > It was the context from those chapters that gave me



                              > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",



                              > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a



                              > place "above" them and making a total of eight.



                              >



                              > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.



                              > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to



                              > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even



                              > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in



                              > a total of only seven planets.



                              >



                              > As I begin re

                              ading through the Eck books again -



                              > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious



                              > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,



                              > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing



                              > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's



                              > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to



                              > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand



                              > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was



                              > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                              =0
                              D

                              > materials. Like, how much of it was material that



                              > was already known to history? How much was in



                              > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D



                              > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?



                              > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,



                              > how much of the material had actually come direct



                              > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens



                              > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?



                              >



                              > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and



                              > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,



                              > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with



                              > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.



                              >



                              > Etznab



                              >



                              > -----Original Message-----



                              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>



                              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com



                              > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20

                              09 1:41 pm



                              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.

                              the Soul



                              > "Body"



                              >



                              > Hello Etznab,



                              >



                              > You make some good points and have



                              >



                              > brought up more information to point



                              =0
                              A>



                              > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.



                              >



                              > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"



                              >



                              > and D.W.T.M. later.



                              >



                              > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra



                              >



                              > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;



                              >



                              > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th



                              >



                              > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"



                              >



                              > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral



                              >



                              > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to



                              >



                              > overlook this point. And, look at how



                              >



                              > many years Klemp has instructed EKists



                              >



                              > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/



                              >



                              > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra



                              >



                              > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0



                              > D



                              >



                              > Chakra is still being used after 28 years



                              >



                              > under Klemp's rule(s)!



                              >



                              > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is



                              >



                              > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There



                              >



                              > is a belief that Groups
                              of Souls have an



                              >



                              > Over-Soul and that

                              these Souls need to



                              >



                              > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)



                              >



                              > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/



                              >



                              > being that same Over-Soul which, then,



                              >



                              > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can



                              >



                              > by-pass the hierarchy and can become



                              >



                              > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,



                              >



                              > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have



                              >



                              > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                              >



                              > Prometheus



                              >



                              > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI



                              >



                              > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is



                              >



                              > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"



                              >



                              > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th



                              >



                              > Plane!



                              >



                              > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"



                              >



                              > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,



                              >



                              > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect



                              >



                              > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "
                              advanced"



                              >



                              > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"



                              >



                              > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



                              >



                              > Etznab wrote:



                              >



                              > I would like to know the difference between



                              >



                              > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,



                              >



                              > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something



                              >



                              > about the inner=2

                              0form of the Living Eck Master.



                              >



                              > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called



                              >



                              > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0



                              > D



                              >



                              > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



                              >



                              > This is something I've been contemplating



                              >



                              > for some time: What is different with the two



                              >



                              > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me



                              >



                              > about this subject).



                              >



                              > There's another thing on this subject, and it



                              >



                              > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,



                              >



                              > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided



                              >



                              > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the




                              >



                              > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,



                              >



                              > any of the other lower world bodies where there



                              >



                              > are many different ones - including the physical



                              >



                              > body.



                              >



                              > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma



                              >



                              > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is



                              >



                              > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul



                              >



                              > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.



                              >



                              > Something like another dimension.



                              >



                              > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?



                              >



                              > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of



                              >



                              > the L

                              iving Eck Master become so important?



                              >



                              > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled



                              >



                              > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that



                              >



                              > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My



                              >



                              > understanding is that the astral body is limited



                              >



                              > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup



                              >



                              > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one=2
                              0would have



                              >



                              > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



                              >



                              > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book



                              >



                              > it reads like that was his first vis



                              > it. However, in



                              >



                              > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The



                              >



                              > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice



                              >



                              > already!



                              >



                              > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                              >



                              > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the



                              >



                              > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.



                              >



                              > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the



                              >



                              > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and



                              >



                              > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after



                              >



                              > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul



                              >



                              > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)



                              >



                              > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all



                              >



                              > the way to the nameless

                              plane. Anami. & not



                              >



                              > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem



                              >



                              &
                              gt; quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-



                              >



                              > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's



                              >



                              > Fang account and the year 1957.



                              >



                              > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                              >



                              > I wonder, were those two different books, the



                              >



                              > two different manuscripts, about the same basic



                              >



                              > experience?



                              >



                              > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an



                              >



                              > online version of The Path of the Masters? by



                              >



                              > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter



                              >



                              > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the



                              >



                              > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The



                              >



                              > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257



                              >



                              > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami



                              >



                              > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:



                              >



                              > A Talk With Rami Nuri.



                              >



                              > I've



                              > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early



                              >



                              > books and read from the beginning, looking at



                              >


                              0D
                              > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over



                              >



                              > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at



                              >



                              > this point in time. I'm discovering things that



                              >



                              > had20escaped me up until now.



                              >



                              > Etznab



                              >



                              > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                              >



                              > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



                              >



                              > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



                              >



                              > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



                              >



                              > or contemplate upon his Physical image via



                              >



                              > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



                              >



                              > of an Astral image. How is this the same as



                              >



                              > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



                              >



                              > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



                              >



                              > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



                              >



                              > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



                              >



                              > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



                              >



                              > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



                              >



                              > of the Lower Planes=2
                              0just as all other religions



                              >



                              > teach and other "believers" experience!



                              >



                              > Prometheus



                              >



                              > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



                              >



                              > Hello All,



                              >



                              > It was bad enough that HK sold



                              >



                              > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



                              >



                              > portrait. Now he's selling the "True



                              >



                              > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



                              > 0D



                              >



                              > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                              =0

                              A

                              >



                              > portrait accurately? No, not quite!



                              >



                              > The truth has (once again) been



                              >



                              > embellished and distorted! Klemp,



                              >



                              > no doubt, likes this rendition because



                              >



                              > it makes him appear younger. Thus,



                              >



                              > this drawing looks more "sketch"



                              >



                              > like than portrait like!



                              >



                              > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



                              >



                              > a more modern, shaved look, and



                              >



                              > does not appear as thin as it really



                              >



                              > is (t
                              he inside portion of his ear is



                              >



                              > different too).



                              >



                              > When looking at the front cover photo,



                              >



                              > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



                              >



                              > World of ECKankar" we can see that



                              >



                              > Klemp parts his hair on the side and



                              >



                              > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



                              >



                              > makes Klemp look younger.



                              >



                              > The question ECKists should be asking is,



                              >



                              > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



                              >



                              > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



                              >



                              > followers all want to "imagine" that they look



                              >



                              > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



                              >



                              > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



                              >



                              > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0

                              D



                              >



                              > I think it's funny that Klemp names



                              >



                              > this new portrait "True Friend." Would



                              >



                              > a "true friend" say such nasty



                              > and mean



                              >



                              > things to you? These RESAs and ot
                              her



                              >



                              > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



                              >



                              > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



                              >



                              > now they see that there are strings



                              >



                              > attached and that it's a one-way friend-



                              >



                              > ship.



                              >



                              > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



                              >



                              > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



                              >



                              > himself, or give it to you... free of



                              >



                              > charge? Hmmmmmm.



                              >



                              > On another note, I saw how Klemp can



                              >



                              > make even more money from his image.



                              >



                              > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



                              >



                              > as though he has a big hole running



                              >



                              > through his head. So, maybe HK could



                              >



                              > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



                              >



                              > The chain would go through his ears!



                              >



                              > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



                              >



                              > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK



                              >



                              > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



                              >


                              =0
                              A
                              > he does with portraits, books, etc.



                              >



                              > Prometheus



                              >



                              &

                              gt;



                              > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                              .yahoo.com



                              >



                              >



                              > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                              .yahoo.com



                              >



                              Send instant messages to your online friends

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