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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

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  • etznab@aol.com
    I would like to know the difference between Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe, the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something about the inner form of
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 23, 2009
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      I would like to know the difference between
      Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
      the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
      about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

      The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
      a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
      Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

      This is something I've been contemplating
      for some time: What is different with the two
      types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
      about this subject).

      There's another thing on this subject, and it
      has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
      I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
      body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
      Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
      any of the other lower world bodies where there
      are many different ones - including the physical
      body.

      So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
      Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
      only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
      Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
      Something like another dimension.

      Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
      and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
      the Living Eck Master become so important?
      Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
      to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
      the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
      understanding is that the astral body is limited
      to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
      transc
      ends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
      to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

      Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
      it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
      the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
      Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
      already!

      ?????????????????????????????????????

      A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
      Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
      to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
      D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
      T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
      getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
      Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
      Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
      the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
      only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
      quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
      Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
      Fang account and the year 1957.

      ?????????????????????????????????????

      I wonder, were those two different books, the
      two different manuscripts, about the same basic
      experience?

      BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
      online version of The Path of the Masters? by
      Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
      entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
      Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
      Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
      on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
      Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Examp
      le:
      A Talk With Rami Nuri.

      I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
      books and read from the beginning, looking at
      how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
      the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
      this point in time. I'm discovering things that
      had escaped me up until now.

      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 12:29 am
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
      "Body"








      Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

      is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

      chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

      or contemplate upon his Physical image via

      his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

      of an Astral image. How is this the same as

      meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

      Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

      with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

      than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

      Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

      (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

      of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

      teach and other "believers" experience!



      Prometheus





      Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



      Hello All,

      It was bad enough that HK sold

      his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

      portrait. No
      w he's selling the "True

      Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



      But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

      portrait accurately? No, not quite!

      The truth has (once again) been

      embellished and distorted! Klemp,

      no doubt, likes this rendition because

      it makes him appear younger. Thus,

      this drawing looks more "sketch"

      like than portrait like!



      What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

      a more modern, shaved look, and

      does not appear as thin as it really

      is (the inside portion of his ear is

      different too).



      When looking at the front cover photo,

      of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

      World of ECKankar" we can see that

      Klemp parts his hair on the side and

      does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

      makes Klemp look younger.



      The question ECKists should be asking is,

      Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

      are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

      followers all want to "imagine" that they look

      "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

      Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

      rather than having an Astral Plane image!



      I think it's funny that Klemp names

      this new portrait "True Friend." Would

      a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

      things to you? These RESAs and other

      H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

      Letter see Klemp as a True Friend
      , but

      now they see that there are strings

      attached and that it's a one-way friend-

      ship.



      BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

      you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

      himself, or give it to you... free of

      charge? Hmmmmmm.



      On another note, I saw how Klemp can

      make even more money from his image.

      HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

      as though he has a big hole running

      through his head. So, maybe HK could

      have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

      The chain would go through his ears!

      He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

      $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

      will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

      he does with portraits, books, etc.



      Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Etznab, You make some good points and have brought up more information to point out Twitchell s and, now, Klemp s scam. I ll have to look at my copy of
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 24, 2009
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        Hello Etznab,
        You make some good points and have
        brought up more information to point
        out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
        I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
        and D.W.T.M. later.

        It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
        Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
        Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
        Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
        their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
        "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
        overlook this point. And, look at how
        many years Klemp has instructed EKists
        to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
        singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
        is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
        Chakra is still being used after 28 years
        under Klemp's rule(s)!

        BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
        actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
        is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
        Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
        become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
        or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
        being that same Over-Soul which, then,
        becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
        by-pass the hierarchy and can become
        "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
        on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
        you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

        Prometheus
        p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
        LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
        where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
        resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
        Plane!

        Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
        thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
        Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
        with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
        Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
        [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]


        Etznab wrote:
        I would like to know the difference between
        Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
        the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
        about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

        The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
        a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
        Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

        This is something I've been contemplating
        for some time: What is different with the two
        types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
        about this subject).

        There's another thing on this subject, and it
        has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
        I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
        body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
        Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
        any of the other lower world bodies where there
        are many different ones - including the physical
        body.

        So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
        Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
        only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
        Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
        Something like another dimension.

        Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
        and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
        the Living Eck Master become so important?
        Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
        to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
        the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
        understanding is that the astral body is limited
        to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
        transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
        to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

        Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
        it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
        the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
        Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
        already!

        ?????????????????????????????????????

        A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
        Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
        to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
        D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
        T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
        getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
        Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
        Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
        the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
        only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
        quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
        Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
        Fang account and the year 1957.

        ?????????????????????????????????????

        I wonder, were those two different books, the
        two different manuscripts, about the same basic
        experience?

        BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
        online version of The Path of the Masters? by
        Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
        entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
        Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
        Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
        on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
        Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
        A Talk With Rami Nuri.

        I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
        books and read from the beginning, looking at
        how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
        the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
        this point in time. I'm discovering things that
        had escaped me up until now.

        Etznab



        HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"


        Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

        is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

        chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

        or contemplate upon his Physical image via

        his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

        of an Astral image. How is this the same as

        meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

        Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

        with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

        than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

        Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

        (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

        of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

        teach and other "believers" experience!



        Prometheus





        Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



        Hello All,

        It was bad enough that HK sold

        his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

        portrait. Now he's selling the "True

        Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



        But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

        portrait accurately? No, not quite!

        The truth has (once again) been

        embellished and distorted! Klemp,

        no doubt, likes this rendition because

        it makes him appear younger. Thus,

        this drawing looks more "sketch"

        like than portrait like!



        What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

        a more modern, shaved look, and

        does not appear as thin as it really

        is (the inside portion of his ear is

        different too).



        When looking at the front cover photo,

        of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

        World of ECKankar" we can see that

        Klemp parts his hair on the side and

        does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

        makes Klemp look younger.



        The question ECKists should be asking is,

        Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

        are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

        followers all want to "imagine" that they look

        "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

        Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

        rather than having an Astral Plane image!



        I think it's funny that Klemp names

        this new portrait "True Friend." Would

        a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

        things to you? These RESAs and other

        H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

        Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

        now they see that there are strings

        attached and that it's a one-way friend-

        ship.



        BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

        you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

        himself, or give it to you... free of

        charge? Hmmmmmm.



        On another note, I saw how Klemp can

        make even more money from his image.

        HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

        as though he has a big hole running

        through his head. So, maybe HK could

        have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

        The chain would go through his ears!

        He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

        $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

        will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

        he does with portraits, books, etc.



        Prometheus
      • etznab@aol.com
        Have you ever read about, Over-Soul Seven? Prometheus, No. I haven t. The reference to number seven interests me. Since seven heavens , or seven spheres
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 24, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

          Prometheus,

          No. I haven't.

          The reference to number seven interests me.
          Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
          mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
          Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
          me the impression of eight basic planes, where
          the eighth (and highest) was considered above
          them all. Like, something on another level, so
          to speak. Examples:

          p. 156

          "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
          of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
          of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
          all!"

          [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
          during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
          not sure. That quote is on the second page
          of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
          Question: Why does he mention seven?]

          For some reason, I'm under the impression
          that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
          a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
          8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
          the same book.

          p. 195

          "When I want to show the world my highest
          grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
          This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
          sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
          is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
          final for he represents my power in the seven
          lower worlds."

          [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
          I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

          Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
          my earlier post. The being supposed to have
          spoken those words was either Anami, or the
          SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
          have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
          story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
          Consider the last seven words in that quote:

          ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

          I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
          Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
          (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
          (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
          Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
          I suspect the earlier models had around eight
          planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
          book would mention this many and then the
          1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
          a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
          haste, and will have to go back & check the
          names of the planes for accuracy.)

          In the next chapter following that one (THE
          SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
          go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
          of the chapter:

          p. 197

          Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
          you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
          into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
          of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
          you will then know for yourself. [....]

          p. 199

          "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
          speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
          among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
          serve to take the message of the divine to all my
          creations throughout the seven spheres."

          Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
          by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
          once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
          other time mentions seven spheres.

          It was the context from those chapters that gave me
          the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
          etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
          place "above" them and making a total of eight.

          I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
          Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
          be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
          during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
          a total of only seven planets.

          As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
          starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
          notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
          when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
          and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
          1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
          take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
          the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
          (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
          materials. Like, how much of it was material that
          was already known to history? How much was in
          the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
          How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
          How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
          how much of the material had actually come direct
          from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
          (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

          This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
          so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
          history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
          other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

          Etznab



          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
          "Body"








          Hello Etznab,

          You make some good points and have

          brought up more information to point

          out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

          I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

          and D.W.T.M. later.



          It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

          Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

          Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

          Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

          their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

          "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

          overlook this point. And, look at how

          many years Klemp has instructed EKists

          to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

          singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

          is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
          D

          Chakra is still being used after 28 years

          under Klemp's rule(s)!



          BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

          actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

          is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

          Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

          become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

          or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

          being that same Over-Soul which, then,

          becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

          by-pass the hierarchy and can become

          "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

          on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

          you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



          Prometheus

          p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

          LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

          where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

          resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

          Plane!



          Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

          thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

          Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

          with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

          Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

          [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



          Etznab wrote:

          I would like to know the difference between

          Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

          the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

          about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.



          The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

          a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
          D

          Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



          This is something I've been contemplating

          for some time: What is different with the two

          types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

          about this subject).



          There's another thing on this subject, and it

          has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

          I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

          body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

          Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

          any of the other lower world bodies where there

          are many different ones - including the physical

          body.



          So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

          Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

          only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

          Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

          Something like another dimension.



          Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

          and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

          the Living Eck Master become so important?

          Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

          to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

          the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

          understanding is that the astral body is limited

          to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

          transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

          to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



          Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

          it reads like that was his first vis
          it. However, in

          the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

          Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

          already!



          ?????????????????????????????????????



          A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

          Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

          to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

          D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

          T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

          getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

          Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

          Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

          the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

          only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

          quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

          Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

          Fang account and the year 1957.



          ?????????????????????????????????????



          I wonder, were those two different books, the

          two different manuscripts, about the same basic

          experience?



          BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

          online version of The Path of the Masters? by

          Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

          entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

          Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

          Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

          on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

          Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

          A Talk With Rami Nuri.



          I've
          decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

          books and read from the beginning, looking at

          how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

          the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

          this point in time. I'm discovering things that

          had escaped me up until now.



          Etznab



          HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



          Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



          is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



          chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



          or contemplate upon his Physical image via



          his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



          of an Astral image. How is this the same as



          meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



          Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



          with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



          than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



          Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



          (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



          of the Lower Planes just as all other religions



          teach and other "believers" experience!



          Prometheus



          Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



          Hello All,



          It was bad enough that HK sold



          his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



          portrait. Now he's selling the "True



          Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
          0D


          But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the



          portrait accurately? No, not quite!



          The truth has (once again) been



          embellished and distorted! Klemp,



          no doubt, likes this rendition because



          it makes him appear younger. Thus,



          this drawing looks more "sketch"



          like than portrait like!



          What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



          a more modern, shaved look, and



          does not appear as thin as it really



          is (the inside portion of his ear is



          different too).



          When looking at the front cover photo,



          of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



          World of ECKankar" we can see that



          Klemp parts his hair on the side and



          does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



          makes Klemp look younger.



          The question ECKists should be asking is,



          Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



          are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



          followers all want to "imagine" that they look



          "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



          Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



          rather than having an Astral Plane image!



          I think it's funny that Klemp names



          this new portrait "True Friend." Would



          a "true friend" say such nasty
          and mean



          things to you? These RESAs and other



          H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



          Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



          now they see that there are strings



          attached and that it's a one-way friend-



          ship.



          BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



          you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



          himself, or give it to you... free of



          charge? Hmmmmmm.



          On another note, I saw how Klemp can



          make even more money from his image.



          HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



          as though he has a big hole running



          through his head. So, maybe HK could



          have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



          The chain would go through his ears!



          He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



          $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK



          will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



          he does with portraits, books, etc.



          Prometheus
        • Jason Mc Dermott
          Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Etznab

            I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                       The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                        Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
            The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

            Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they're quite good.

            Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
            As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

             Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

            I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

            Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

            I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

            Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
            http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html

            hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

            Jay




            From: "etznab@..." <etznab@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

            Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

            Prometheus,

            No. I haven't.

            The reference to number seven interests me.
            Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
            mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
            Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
            me the impression of eight basic planes, where
            the eighth (and highest) was considered above
            them all. Like, something on another level, so
            to speak. Examples:

            p. 156

            "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
            of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
            of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
            all!"

            [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
            during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
            not sure. That quote is on the second page
            of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
            Question: Why does he mention seven?]

            For some reason, I'm under the impression
            that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
            a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
            8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
            the same book.

            p. 195

            "When I want to show the world my highest
            grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
            This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
            sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
            is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
            final for he represents my power in the seven
            lower worlds."

            [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
            I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

            Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
            my earlier post. The being supposed to have
            spoken those words was either Anami, or the
            SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
            have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
            story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
            Consider the last seven words in that quote:

            ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

            I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
            Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
            (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
            (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
            Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
            I suspect the earlier models had around eight
            planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
            book would mention this many and then the
            1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
            a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
            haste, and will have to go back & check the
            names of the planes for accuracy.)

            In the next chapter following that one (THE
            SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
            go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
            of the chapter:

            p. 197

            Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
            you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
            into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
            of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
            you will then know for yourself. [....]

            p. 199

            "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
            speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
            among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
            serve to take the message of the divine to all my
            creations throughout the seven spheres."

            Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
            by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
            once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
            other time mentions seven spheres.

            It was the context from those chapters that gave me
            the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
            etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
            place "above" them and making a total of eight.

            I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
            Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
            be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
            during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
            a total of only seven planets.

            As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
            starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
            notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
            when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
            and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
            1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
            take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
            the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
            (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
            materials. Like, how much of it was material that
            was already known to history? How much was in
            the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
            How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
            How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
            how much of the material had actually come direct
            from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
            (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

            This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
            so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
            history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
            other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

            Etznab

            -----Original Message-----
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
            Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
            "Body"

            Hello Etznab,

            You make some good points and have

            brought up more information to point

            out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

            I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

            and D.W.T.M. later.

            It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

            Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

            Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

            Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

            their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

            "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

            overlook this point. And, look at how

            many years Klemp has instructed EKists

            to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

            singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

            is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
            D

            Chakra is still being used after 28 years

            under Klemp's rule(s)!

            BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

            actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

            is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

            Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

            become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

            or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

            being that same Over-Soul which, then,

            becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

            by-pass the hierarchy and can become

            "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

            on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

            you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

            Prometheus

            p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

            LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

            where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

            resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

            Plane!

            Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

            thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

            Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

            with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

            Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

            [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

            Etznab wrote:

            I would like to know the difference between

            Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

            the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

            about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

            The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

            a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
            D

            Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

            This is something I've been contemplating

            for some time: What is different with the two

            types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

            about this subject).

            There's another thing on this subject, and it

            has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

            I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

            body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

            Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

            any of the other lower world bodies where there

            are many different ones - including the physical

            body.

            So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

            Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

            only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

            Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

            Something like another dimension.

            Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

            and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

            the Living Eck Master become so important?

            Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

            to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

            the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

            understanding is that the astral body is limited

            to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

            transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

            to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

            Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

            it reads like that was his first vis
            it. However, in

            the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

            Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

            already!

            ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

            A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

            Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

            to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

            D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

            T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

            getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

            Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

            Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

            the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

            only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

            quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

            Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

            Fang account and the year 1957.

            ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

            I wonder, were those two different books, the

            two different manuscripts, about the same basic

            experience?

            BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

            online version of The Path of the Masters? by

            Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

            entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

            Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

            Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

            on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

            Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

            A Talk With Rami Nuri.

            I've
            decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

            books and read from the beginning, looking at

            how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

            the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

            this point in time. I'm discovering things that

            had escaped me up until now.

            Etznab

            HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

            Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

            is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

            chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

            or contemplate upon his Physical image via

            his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

            of an Astral image. How is this the same as

            meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

            Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

            with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

            than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

            Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

            (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

            of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

            teach and other "believers" experience!

            Prometheus

            Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

            Hello All,

            It was bad enough that HK sold

            his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

            portrait. Now he's selling the "True

            Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
            0D

            But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

            portrait accurately? No, not quite!

            The truth has (once again) been

            embellished and distorted! Klemp,

            no doubt, likes this rendition because

            it makes him appear younger. Thus,

            this drawing looks more "sketch"

            like than portrait like!

            What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

            a more modern, shaved look, and

            does not appear as thin as it really

            is (the inside portion of his ear is

            different too).

            When looking at the front cover photo,

            of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

            World of ECKankar" we can see that

            Klemp parts his hair on the side and

            does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

            makes Klemp look younger.

            The question ECKists should be asking is,

            Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

            are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

            followers all want to "imagine" that they look

            "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

            Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

            rather than having an Astral Plane image!

            I think it's funny that Klemp names

            this new portrait "True Friend." Would

            a "true friend" say such nasty
            and mean

            things to you? These RESAs and other

            H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

            Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

            now they see that there are strings

            attached and that it's a one-way friend-

            ship.

            BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

            you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

            himself, or give it to you... free of

            charge? Hmmmmmm.

            On another note, I saw how Klemp can

            make even more money from his image.

            HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

            as though he has a big hole running

            through his head. So, maybe HK could

            have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

            The chain would go through his ears!

            He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

            $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

            will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

            he does with portraits, books, etc.

            Prometheus


            Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
          • etznab@aol.com
            [....] So one year after getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for) Dialogues With The Master. In it he
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              "[....] So one year after getting initiated by
              Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul Twitchell writes
              a book (the manuscript for) Dialogues With
              The Master. In it he travels all the way to the
              nameless plane. Anami. & not only once,
              but twice! Something doesn't seem quite
              right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
              Realization is usually identified with The
              Tiger's Fang account and the year 1957."

              I think that needs a little clarification.

              In Dialogues With The Master Paul T.
              writes in the Introduction section:

              [....] He concluded his series of talks that
              year by taking me on the spiritual journey
              recorded in my book "The Tiger's Fang."

              Using the date for writing the Dialogues
              With The Master manuscript to be 1956,
              it would seem that the "spiritual journey"
              recorded in The Tiger's Fang book came
              in late 1956. Not 1957.

              Apparently, I was not the only person
              who mentioned 1957. Example:

              A natural question one might ask about the
              ECK Initiations is this: "If Paul Twitchell had
              God Realization in 1957, why did the ECK
              Master Shamus-i-Tabriz suggest that Paul
              was not omniscient?" Isn't a God-Realized
              person supposed to know all things?

              [....]

              Paul did have the experience of God Con-
              sciousness in 1957, but it took eight full
              years before he was ready for the mantle
              of the Mahanta in 1965. Even then he did
              not know all things, as the spiritually naive
              would like to think20he did.

              [....]

              [Based on: Soul Travelers Of The Far Country,
              by Harold Klemp, copyright 1987, pp. 140-141]

              Here is another example. One that gives both
              1956 and 1957.

              "In late 1956 or early 1957 Paul had the experience
              that is recorded in The Tiger's Fang. If he touched the
              face of God in 1956, some people may wonder why it
              took him until 1965 to become the Mahanta, the
              Living ECK Master. [....]"

              [Based on: Article (Touching the Face of God) @
              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail

              It's only a trivial point, I know, however I think it's
              important to establish the date for this event.

              BTW, there is a chapter in Dialogues With The
              Master entitled The Face of God. It is Paul's first
              trip to the "Anami Plane" that I mentioned in that
              earlier post (the second trip was in the chapter
              The Sugmad Speaks. It follows The Face of God
              chapter).

              Interesting what a little time & research can do.
              Now I think I see the reason for mentioning 1956
              and not 1957 for Paul Twitchell's God-Realization
              experience.

              All of this brings up a question, though. Did Paul
              write about that experience twice? Like in both the
              manuscripts? 1956: Dialogues With The Master &
              1957: The Tiger's Fang?

              The journey to "Sugmad" appears in The Tiger's
              Fang chapter entitled: The Spiritual Malignancy.
              In it, the being reportedly speaking to Paul gives
              four principles. In
              Dialogues With The Master the
              being reportedly speaking - in The Face of God
              chapter - gives three precepts.

              So which is the accurate record about Paul T.'s
              so-called God-Realization experience in which he
              reportedly meets the SUGMAD? Or, God?

              After just reading Dialogues With The Master
              another time, my guess would be that the first
              mention was in the Dialogues With The Master
              chapter entitled The Face of God.

              BTW, I found that one Eckankar quote more
              than a little curious.

              "In late 1956 or early 1957 Paul had the experience
              that is recorded in The Tiger's Fang. If he touched the
              face of God in 1956, some people may wonder why it
              took him until 1965 to become the Mahanta, the
              Living ECK Master. [....]"

              [Based on: Article (Touching the Face of God) @
              http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail

              Well, apparently (I would add) the experience was
              also recorded in Dialogues With The Master.

              My references seem to suggest that D.W.T.M.
              manuscript was written before The Tiger's Fang.
              Perhaps there was one basic manuscript which
              recorded (wrote about) the experience and Paul
              (or Eckankar) later made it into two books.

              I'm planning to read The Tiger's Fang next, &
              compare it with Dialogues With The Master. It
              will take some time, but I'll get back with you
              and maybe we can discuss what actually took
              place.

              Etznab


              -----Original Message-----
              F
              rom: etznab@...
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 10:20 pm
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
              "Body"


              I would like to know the difference between
              Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
              the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
              about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

              The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
              a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
              Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

              This is something I've been contemplating
              for some time: What is different with the two
              types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
              about this subject).

              There's another thing on this subject, and it
              has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
              I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
              body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
              Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
              any of the other lower world bodies where there
              are many different ones - including the physical
              body.

              So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
              Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
              only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
              Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
              Something like another dimension.

              Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
              and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
              the Living Eck Master become so important?
              Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
              to the Anami Lok wit
              h Rebazar Tarzs was that
              the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
              understanding is that the astral body is limited
              to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
              transc
              ends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
              to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

              Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
              it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
              the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
              Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
              already!

              ?????????????????????????????????????

              A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
              Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
              to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
              D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
              T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
              getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
              Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
              Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
              the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
              only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
              quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
              Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
              Fang account and the year 1957.

              ?????????????????????????????????????

              I wonder, were those two different books, the
              two different manuscripts, about the same basic
              experience?

              BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
              online version of The Path of the Masters? by
              Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
              entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
              Univ
              erse (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
              Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
              on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
              Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Examp
              le:
              A Talk With Rami Nuri.

              I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
              books and read from the beginning, looking at
              how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
              the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
              this point in time. I'm discovering things that
              had escaped me up until now.

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 12:29 am
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
              "Body"








              Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

              is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

              chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

              or contemplate upon his Physical image via

              his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

              of an Astral image. How is this the same as

              meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

              Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

              with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

              than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

              Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

              (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

              of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

              teach and other "believers" experience!



              Prometheus






              Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



              Hello All,

              It was bad enough that HK sold

              his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

              portrait. No
              w he's selling the "True

              Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



              But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

              portrait accurately? No, not quite!

              The truth has (once again) been

              embellished and distorted! Klemp,

              no doubt, likes this rendition because

              it makes him appear younger. Thus,

              this drawing looks more "sketch"

              like than portrait like!



              What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

              a more modern, shaved look, and

              does not appear as thin as it really

              is (the inside portion of his ear is

              different too).



              When looking at the front cover photo,

              of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

              World of ECKankar" we can see that

              Klemp parts his hair on the side and

              does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

              makes Klemp look younger.



              The question ECKists should be asking is,

              Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

              are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

              followers all want to "imagine" that they look

              "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

              Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

              rather than having an Astral Plane image!



              I think it's funny that Klemp names

              this new portrait "True Frien
              d." Would

              a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

              things to you? These RESAs and other

              H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

              Letter see Klemp as a True Friend
              , but

              now they see that there are strings

              attached and that it's a one-way friend-

              ship.



              BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

              you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

              himself, or give it to you... free of

              charge? Hmmmmmm.



              On another note, I saw how Klemp can

              make even more money from his image.

              HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

              as though he has a big hole running

              through his head. So, maybe HK could

              have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

              The chain would go through his ears!

              He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

              $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

              will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

              he does with portraits, books, etc.



              Prometheus
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Jay,
                Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
                you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
                been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
                archives), and there are Links and Files,
                also, that show and discuss many of these
                subjects as well. However, the main focus
                of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
                this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
                positioned himself to inherit it and how
                he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
                continue the lies, myth, and the belief
                systems (fear and faith) that all religions
                use. - P.

                Jay wrote:
                Dear Etznab
                >
                I my self am doing similar in studying back
                over the shariyat's to see how much of these
                two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
                me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
                But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
                vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
                at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
                he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
                Then of course there are the number of books
                written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
                on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
                the story on this enigma of a man:
                >
                The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
                of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                >
                P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
                not actually contain "the whole truth"
                and that much is just a rehash of his
                previous opinions and speculations]
                >
                The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
                >
                P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
                denounced Klemp and his own book about
                his "Mahanta" experiences.]
                >
                Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                >
                P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
                spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
                who took his place]
                >
                The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
                though the above books have helped move
                on from some of his theories and material,
                but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
                He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
                book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
                just type his name in and you'll find it.
                >
                P: *[David started the ball rolling]
                >
                Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
                to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
                of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
                he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
                to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
                on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
                the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
                set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
                with others..they're quite good.
                >
                Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
                of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
                its on you tube the link is
                >
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
                >
                As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
                girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
                apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
                the website is
                >
                http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html
                >
                Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
                of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
                when kicked out of Eck.
                >
                P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
                Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
                >
                Also as you may know there are a few other off
                shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
                actually can't remember him.. should have book
                marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
                he has his own line of past masters. Another
                guy who will mail you intro material is Master
                Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
                >
                I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
                haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
                I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
                hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
                far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
                perspective of where I may be going next. What
                really makes his insights for us all stand out are
                two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
                in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
                master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
                all the time his students said he was with them
                on the inner planes and how they would praise
                him for his place in their spiritual development,
                he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
                nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
                students on the inner planes...I mean come on
                how profound is this.
                >
                Though we are on the intellectual level only with
                all this talk..it is basic and important though.
                I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
                I've practised the HU chant all this time and
                studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
                of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
                i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
                or ignored the possible science of the brain that
                maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
                to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd
                initiate always told it was my choice, though
                I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
                be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
                >
                >
                P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
                under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
                professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
                you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
                (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
                do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
                >
                >
                I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
                and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
                remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
                >
                Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
                of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                >
                http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html
                >
                hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
                >
                Jay


                >
                > From: etznab
                >
                > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                >
                > Prometheus,
                >
                > No. I haven't.
                >
                > The reference to number seven interests me.
                > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                > to speak. Examples:
                >
                > p. 156
                >
                > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                > all!"
                >
                > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                >
                > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                > the same book.
                >
                > p. 195
                >
                > "When I want to show the world my highest
                > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                > final for he represents my power in the seven
                > lower worlds."
                >
                > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                >
                > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                >
                > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                >
                > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                > book would mention this many and then the
                > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                >
                > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                > of the chapter:
                >
                > p. 197
                >
                > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                >
                > p. 199
                >
                > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                >
                > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                > other time mentions seven spheres.
                >
                > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                >
                > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                > a total of only seven planets.
                >
                > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                > was already known to history? How much was in
                > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                > how much of the material had actually come direct
                > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                >
                > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                >
                > Hello Etznab,
                >
                > You make some good points and have
                >
                > brought up more information to point
                >
                > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                >
                > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                >
                > and D.W.T.M. later.
                >
                >
                > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                >
                > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                >
                > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                >
                > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                >
                > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                >
                > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                >
                > overlook this point. And, look at how
                >
                > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                >
                > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                >
                > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                >
                > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
                >
                > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                >
                > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                >
                >
                > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                >
                > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                >
                > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                >
                > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                >
                > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                >
                > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                >
                > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                >
                > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                >
                > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                >
                > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                >
                > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                >
                > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                >
                > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                >
                > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                >
                > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                >
                > Plane!
                >
                > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                >
                > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                >
                > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                >
                > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                >
                > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                >
                > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                >
              • Jason Mc Dermott
                Hi Prometheus Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y know somewhere to
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Prometheus

                  Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y'know somewhere to start..interesting line of inquiry though. Also thanks for the detail on becoming a 5th initiate I never really looked into it though. The sites great with all the files you've put up..great help.

                  Thanks again

                  Jay




                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 5:02:45
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

                  Hello Jay,
                  Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
                  you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
                  been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
                  archives), and there are Links and Files,
                  also, that show and discuss many of these
                  subjects as well. However, the main focus
                  of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
                  this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
                  positioned himself to inherit it and how
                  he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
                  continue the lies, myth, and the belief
                  systems (fear and faith) that all religions
                  use. - P.

                  Jay wrote:
                  Dear Etznab

                  >
                  I my self am doing similar in studying back
                  over the shariyat's to see how much of these
                  two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
                  me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
                  But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
                  vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
                  at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
                  he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
                  Then of course there are the number of books
                  written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
                  on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
                  the story on this enigma of a man:
                  >
                  The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
                  of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                  >
                  P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
                  not actually contain "the whole truth"
                  and that much is just a rehash of his
                  previous opinions and speculations]
                  >
                  The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
                  >
                  P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
                  denounced Klemp and his own book about
                  his "Mahanta" experiences. ]
                  >
                  Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                  >
                  P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
                  spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
                  who took his place]
                  >
                  The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
                  though the above books have helped move
                  on from some of his theories and material,
                  but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
                  He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
                  book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
                  just type his name in and you'll find it.
                  >
                  P: *[David started the ball rolling]
                  >
                  Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
                  to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
                  of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
                  he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
                  to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
                  on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
                  the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
                  set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
                  with others..they' re quite good.
                  >
                  Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
                  of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
                  its on you tube the link is
                  >
                  http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego& feature=related
                  >
                  As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
                  girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
                  apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
                  the website is
                  >
                  http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html
                  >
                  Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
                  of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
                  when kicked out of Eck.
                  >
                  P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
                  Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
                  >
                  Also as you may know there are a few other off
                  shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
                  actually can't remember him.. should have book
                  marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
                  he has his own line of past masters. Another
                  guy who will mail you intro material is Master
                  Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
                  >
                  I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
                  haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
                  I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
                  hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
                  far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
                  perspective of where I may be going next. What
                  really makes his insights for us all stand out are
                  two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
                  in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
                  master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
                  all the time his students said he was with them
                  on the inner planes and how they would praise
                  him for his place in their spiritual development,
                  he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
                  nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
                  students on the inner planes...I mean come on
                  how profound is this.
                  >
                  Though we are on the intellectual level only with
                  all this talk..it is basic and important though.
                  I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
                  I've practised the HU chant all this time and
                  studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
                  of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
                  i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
                  or ignored the possible science of the brain that
                  maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
                  to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd
                  initiate always told it was my choice, though
                  I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
                  be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
                  >
                  >
                  P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
                  under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
                  professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
                  you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
                  (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
                  do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
                  >
                  >
                  I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
                  and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
                  remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
                  >
                  Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
                  of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                  >
                  http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html
                  >
                  hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
                  >
                  Jay


                  >
                  > From: etznab
                  >
                  > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                  >
                  > Prometheus,
                  >
                  > No. I haven't.
                  >
                  > The reference to number seven interests me.
                  > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                  > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                  > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                  > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                  > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                  > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                  > to speak. Examples:
                  >
                  > p. 156
                  >
                  > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                  > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                  > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                  > all!"
                  >
                  > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                  > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                  > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                  > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                  > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                  >
                  > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                  > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                  > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                  > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                  > the same book.
                  >
                  > p. 195
                  >
                  > "When I want to show the world my highest
                  > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                  > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                  > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                  > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                  > final for he represents my power in the seven
                  > lower worlds."
                  >
                  > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                  > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                  >
                  > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                  > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                  > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                  > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                  > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                  > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                  > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                  >
                  > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                  >
                  > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                  > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                  > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                  > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                  > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                  > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                  > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                  > book would mention this many and then the
                  > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                  > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                  > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                  > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                  >
                  > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                  > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                  > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                  > of the chapter:
                  >
                  > p. 197
                  >
                  > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                  > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                  > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                  > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                  > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                  >
                  > p. 199
                  >
                  > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                  > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                  > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                  > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                  > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                  >
                  > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                  > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                  > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                  > other time mentions seven spheres.
                  >
                  > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                  > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                  > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                  > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                  >
                  > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                  > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                  > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                  > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                  > a total of only seven planets.
                  >
                  > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                  > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                  > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                  > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                  > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                  > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                  > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                  > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                  > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                  > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                  > was already known to history? How much was in
                  > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                  > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                  > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                  > how much of the material had actually come direct
                  > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                  > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                  >
                  > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                  > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                  > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                  > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello Etznab,
                  >
                  > You make some good points and have
                  >
                  > brought up more information to point
                  >
                  > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                  >
                  > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                  >
                  > and D.W.T.M. later.
                  >
                  >
                  > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                  >
                  > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                  >
                  > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                  >
                  > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                  >
                  > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                  >
                  > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                  >
                  > overlook this point. And, look at how
                  >
                  > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                  >
                  > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                  >
                  > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                  >
                  > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
                  >
                  > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                  >
                  > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                  >
                  >
                  > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                  >
                  > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                  >
                  > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                  >
                  > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                  >
                  > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                  >
                  > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                  >
                  > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                  >
                  > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                  >
                  > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                  >
                  > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                  >
                  > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                  >
                  > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                  >
                  > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                  >
                  > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                  >
                  > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                  >
                  > Plane!
                  >
                  > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                  >
                  > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                  >
                  > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                  >
                  > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                  >
                  > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                  >
                  > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                  >


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                • Jason Mc Dermott
                  Dear Etznab Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I ve just come
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
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                    Dear Etznab

                     Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson features it as part of his hypothesis as us having multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher Consciousness Society website. You'll find them by clicking on the classes button and then the audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to them in order as not to get confused of what's being discussed and explained by Johnson,the particular section of Over soul seven and Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                    g'luk

                    Jay


                    From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 15:03:04
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                    Dear Etznab

                    I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                               The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                                Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                    The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

                    Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they' re quite good.

                    Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
                    As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

                     Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

                    I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

                    Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

                    I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

                    Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                    http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html

                    hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

                    Jay




                    From: "etznab@aol. com" <etznab@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                    Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                    Prometheus,

                    No. I haven't.

                    The reference to number seven interests me.
                    Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                    mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                    Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                    me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                    the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                    them all. Like, something on another level, so
                    to speak. Examples:

                    p. 156

                    "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                    of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                    of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                    all!"

                    [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                    during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                    not sure. That quote is on the second page
                    of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                    Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                    For some reason, I'm under the impression
                    that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                    a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                    8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                    the same book.

                    p. 195

                    "When I want to show the world my highest
                    grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                    This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                    sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                    is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                    final for he represents my power in the seven
                    lower worlds."

                    [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                    I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                    Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                    my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                    spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                    SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                    have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                    story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                    Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                    ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                    I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                    Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                    (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                    (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                    Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                    I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                    planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                    book would mention this many and then the
                    1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                    a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                    haste, and will have to go back & check the
                    names of the planes for accuracy.)

                    In the next chapter following that one (THE
                    SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                    go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                    of the chapter:

                    p. 197

                    Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                    you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                    into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                    of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                    you will then know for yourself. [....]

                    p. 199

                    "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                    speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                    among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                    serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                    creations throughout the seven spheres."

                    Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                    by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                    once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                    other time mentions seven spheres.

                    It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                    the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                    etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                    place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                    I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                    Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                    be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                    during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                    a total of only seven planets.

                    As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                    starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                    notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                    when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                    and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                    1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                    take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                    the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                    (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                    materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                    was already known to history? How much was in
                    the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                    How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                    How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                    how much of the material had actually come direct
                    from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                    (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                    This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                    so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                    history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                    other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                    Etznab

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                    Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                    "Body"

                    Hello Etznab,

                    You make some good points and have

                    brought up more information to point

                    out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                    I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                    and D.W.T.M. later.

                    It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                    Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                    Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                    Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                    their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                    "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                    overlook this point. And, look at how

                    many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                    to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                    singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                    is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                    D

                    Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                    under Klemp's rule(s)!

                    BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                    actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                    is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                    Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

                    become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                    or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                    being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                    becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                    by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                    "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                    on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                    you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                    Prometheus

                    p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                    LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                    where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                    resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                    Plane!

                    Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                    thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                    Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                    with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                    Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                    [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                    Etznab wrote:

                    I would like to know the difference between

                    Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                    the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                    about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

                    The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                    a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                    D

                    Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                    This is something I've been contemplating

                    for some time: What is different with the two

                    types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                    about this subject).

                    There's another thing on this subject, and it

                    has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                    I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                    body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                    Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                    any of the other lower world bodies where there

                    are many different ones - including the physical

                    body.

                    So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                    Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                    only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                    Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                    Something like another dimension.

                    Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                    and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                    the Living Eck Master become so important?

                    Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                    to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                    the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                    understanding is that the astral body is limited

                    to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                    transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                    to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                    Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                    it reads like that was his first vis
                    it. However, in

                    the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                    Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                    already!

                    ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                    A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                    Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                    to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                    D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                    T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                    getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                    Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                    Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                    the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

                    only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                    quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                    Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                    Fang account and the year 1957.

                    ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                    I wonder, were those two different books, the

                    two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                    experience?

                    BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                    online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                    Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                    entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                    Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                    Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                    on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                    Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                    A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                    I've
                    decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                    books and read from the beginning, looking at

                    how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                    the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                    this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                    had escaped me up until now.

                    Etznab

                    HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                    Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                    is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                    chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                    or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                    his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                    of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                    meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                    Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                    with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                    than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                    Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                    (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                    of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                    teach and other "believers" experience!

                    Prometheus

                    Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                    Hello All,

                    It was bad enough that HK sold

                    his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                    portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                    Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                    0D

                    But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                    portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                    The truth has (once again) been

                    embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                    no doubt, likes this rendition because

                    it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                    this drawing looks more "sketch"

                    like than portrait like!

                    What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                    a more modern, shaved look, and

                    does not appear as thin as it really

                    is (the inside portion of his ear is

                    different too).

                    When looking at the front cover photo,

                    of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                    World of ECKankar" we can see that

                    Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                    does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                    makes Klemp look younger.

                    The question ECKists should be asking is,

                    Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                    are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                    followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                    "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                    Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                    rather than having an Astral Plane image!

                    I think it's funny that Klemp names

                    this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                    a "true friend" say such nasty
                    and mean

                    things to you? These RESAs and other

                    H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                    Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                    now they see that there are strings

                    attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                    ship.

                    BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                    you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                    himself, or give it to you... free of

                    charge? Hmmmmmm.

                    On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                    make even more money from his image.

                    HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                    as though he has a big hole running

                    through his head. So, maybe HK could

                    have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                    The chain would go through his ears!

                    He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                    $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                    will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                    he does with portraits, books, etc.

                    Prometheus


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                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Jay, Etznab, and All, Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it s fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that this is
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
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                      Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                      Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                      fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                      that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                      this is similar to beating a dead horse
                      when sorting out the truth from all the
                      crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                      distracted from the current, now, happenings
                      under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                      Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                      He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                      the hook via his distractions involving
                      Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                      avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                      PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                      the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                      in order to confuse the issue.

                      Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                      but became more and more insane over
                      time. And, look at those "creative" people
                      in business who have scammed thousands
                      of individuals out of their life savings! They
                      even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                      foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                      Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                      expected from a person who paid to be
                      included in "The International Who's Who
                      of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                      why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                      "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                      themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                      Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                      redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                      historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                      EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                      with their current views of society and how
                      it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                      are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                      Masters?

                      BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                      a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                      a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                      actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                      truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                      much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                      Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                      "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                      that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                      as well!

                      As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                      it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                      With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                      said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                      or any other EK Master!

                      FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                      This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                      "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                      the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                      the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                      about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                      to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                      looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                      happens because asking too many questions shows
                      spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                      in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                      comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                      answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                      the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                      This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                      works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                      or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                      within the Satsang Society.

                      Prometheus

                      Jay wrote:

                      Dear Etznab

                      Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                      its a fictional piece based on the well known
                      metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                      I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                      features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                      multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                      in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                      Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                      by clicking on the classes button and then the
                      audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                      them in order as not to get confused of what's
                      being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                      the particular section of Over soul seven and
                      Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                      g'luk

                      Jay

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                      >
                      >

                      Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                      >
                      Etznab,
                      Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                      >
                      Prometheus,

                      Etznab wrote:
                      > No. I haven't.
                      >
                      > The reference to number seven interests me.
                      > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                      > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                      > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                      > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                      > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                      > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                      > to speak. Examples:
                      >
                      > p. 156
                      >
                      > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                      > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                      > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                      > all!"
                      >
                      > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                      > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                      > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                      > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                      > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                      >
                      > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                      > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                      > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                      > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                      > the same book.
                      >
                      > p. 195
                      >
                      > "When I want to show the world my highest
                      > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                      > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                      > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                      > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                      > final for he represents my power in the seven
                      > lower worlds."
                      >
                      > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                      > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                      >
                      > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                      > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                      > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                      > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                      > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                      > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                      > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                      >
                      > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                      >
                      > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                      > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                      > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                      > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                      > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                      > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                      > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                      > book would mention this many and then the
                      > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                      > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                      > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                      > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                      >
                      > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                      > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                      > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                      > of the chapter:
                      >
                      > p. 197
                      >
                      > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                      > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                      > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                      > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                      > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                      >
                      > p. 199
                      >
                      > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                      > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                      > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                      > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                      > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                      >
                      > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                      > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                      > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                      > other time mentions seven spheres.
                      >
                      > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                      > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                      > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                      > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                      >
                      > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                      > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                      > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                      > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                      > a total of only seven planets.
                      >
                      > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                      > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                      > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                      > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                      > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                      > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                      > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                      > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                      > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                      > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                      > was already known to history? How much was in
                      > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                      > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                      > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                      > how much of the material had actually come direct
                      > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                      > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                      >
                      > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                      > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                      > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                      > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                      > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                      > "Body"
                      >
                      > Hello Etznab,
                      >
                      > You make some good points and have
                      >
                      > brought up more information to point
                      >
                      > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                      >
                      > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                      >
                      > and D.W.T.M. later.
                      >
                      > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                      >
                      > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                      >
                      > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                      >
                      > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                      >
                      > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                      >
                      > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                      >
                      > overlook this point. And, look at how
                      >
                      > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                      >
                      > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                      >
                      > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                      >
                      > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                      > D
                      >
                      > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                      >
                      > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                      >
                      > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                      >
                      > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                      >
                      > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                      >
                      > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                      >
                      > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                      >
                      > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                      >
                      > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                      >
                      > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                      >
                      > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                      >
                      > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                      >
                      > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                      >
                      > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                      >
                      > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                      >
                      > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                      >
                      > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                      >
                      > Plane!
                      >
                      > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                      >
                      > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                      >
                      > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                      >
                      > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                      >
                      > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                      >
                      > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                      >
                      > Etznab wrote:
                      >
                      > I would like to know the difference between
                      >
                      > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                      >
                      > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                      >
                      > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                      >
                      > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                      >
                      > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                      > D
                      >
                      > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                      >
                      > This is something I've been contemplating
                      >
                      > for some time: What is different with the two
                      >
                      > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                      >
                      > about this subject).
                      >
                      > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                      >
                      > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                      >
                      > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                      >
                      > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                      >
                      > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                      >
                      > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                      >
                      > are many different ones - including the physical
                      >
                      > body.
                      >
                      > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                      >
                      > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                      >
                      > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                      >
                      > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                      >
                      > Something like another dimension.
                      >
                      > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                      >
                      > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                      >
                      > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                      >
                      > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                      >
                      > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                      >
                      > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                      >
                      > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                      >
                      > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                      >
                      > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                      >
                      > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                      >
                      > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                      >
                      > it reads like that was his first vis
                      > it. However, in
                      >
                      > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                      >
                      > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                      >
                      > already!
                      >
                      > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                      >
                      > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                      >
                      > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                      >
                      > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                      >
                      > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                      >
                      > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                      >
                      > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                      >
                      > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                      >
                      > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                      >
                      > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                      >
                      > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                      >
                      > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                      >
                      > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                      >
                      > Fang account and the year 1957.
                      >
                      > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                      >
                      > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                      >
                      > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                      >
                      > experience?
                      >
                      > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                      >
                      > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                      >
                      > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                      >
                      > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                      >
                      > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                      >
                      > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                      >
                      > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                      >
                      > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                      >
                      > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                      >
                      > I've
                      > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                      >
                      > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                      >
                      > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                      >
                      > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                      >
                      > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                      >
                      > had escaped me up until now.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                      >
                      > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                      >
                      > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                      >
                      > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                      >
                      > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                      >
                      > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                      >
                      > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                      >
                      > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                      >
                      > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                      >
                      > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                      >
                      > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                      >
                      > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                      >
                      > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                      >
                      > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                      >
                      > teach and other "believers" experience!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      >
                      > It was bad enough that HK sold
                      >
                      > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                      >
                      > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                      >
                      > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                      > 0D
                      >
                      > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                      >
                      > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                      >
                      > The truth has (once again) been
                      >
                      > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                      >
                      > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                      >
                      > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                      >
                      > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                      >
                      > like than portrait like!
                      >
                      > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                      >
                      > a more modern, shaved look, and
                      >
                      > does not appear as thin as it really
                      >
                      > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                      >
                      > different too).
                      >
                      > When looking at the front cover photo,
                      >
                      > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                      >
                      > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                      >
                      > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                      >
                      > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                      >
                      > makes Klemp look younger.
                      >
                      > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                      >
                      > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                      >
                      > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                      >
                      > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                      >
                      > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                      >
                      > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                      >
                      > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                      >
                      > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                      >
                      > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                      >
                      > a "true friend" say such nasty
                      > and mean
                      >
                      > things to you? These RESAs and other
                      >
                      > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                      >
                      > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                      >
                      > now they see that there are strings
                      >
                      > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                      >
                      > ship.
                      >
                      > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                      >
                      > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                      >
                      > himself, or give it to you... free of
                      >
                      > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                      >
                      > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                      >
                      > make even more money from his image.
                      >
                      > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                      >
                      > as though he has a big hole running
                      >
                      > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                      >
                      > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                      >
                      > The chain would go through his ears!
                      >
                      > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                      >
                      > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                      >
                      > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                      >
                      > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                      >
                      >
                      > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                      >
                    • Jason Mc Dermott
                      Hi Prometheus Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT s or HK s stuff being that
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Prometheus

                        Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.

                        Jay


                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                        Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                        Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                        fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                        that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                        this is similar to beating a dead horse
                        when sorting out the truth from all the
                        crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                        distracted from the current, now, happenings
                        under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                        Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                        He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                        the hook via his distractions involving
                        Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                        avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                        PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                        the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                        in order to confuse the issue.

                        Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                        but became more and more insane over
                        time. And, look at those "creative" people
                        in business who have scammed thousands
                        of individuals out of their life savings! They
                        even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                        foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                        Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                        expected from a person who paid to be
                        included in "The International Who's Who
                        of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                        why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                        "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                        themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                        Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                        redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                        historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                        EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                        with their current views of society and how
                        it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                        are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                        Masters?

                        BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                        a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                        a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                        actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                        truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                        much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                        Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                        "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                        that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                        as well!

                        As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                        it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                        With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                        said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                        or any other EK Master!

                        FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                        This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                        "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                        the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                        the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                        about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                        to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                        looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                        happens because asking too many questions shows
                        spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                        in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                        comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                        answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                        the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                        This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                        works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                        or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                        within the Satsang Society.

                        Prometheus

                        Jay wrote:

                        Dear Etznab

                        Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                        its a fictional piece based on the well known
                        metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                        I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                        features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                        multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                        in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                        Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                        by clicking on the classes button and then the
                        audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                        them in order as not to get confused of what's
                        being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                        the particular section of Over soul seven and
                        Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                        g'luk

                        Jay

                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________ _________ _________ __
                        > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>

                        >
                        >

                        Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                        >
                        Etznab,
                        Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                        >
                        Prometheus,

                        Etznab wrote:
                        > No. I haven't.
                        >
                        > The reference to number seven interests me.
                        > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                        > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                        > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                        > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                        > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                        > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                        > to speak. Examples:
                        >
                        > p. 156
                        >
                        > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                        > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                        > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                        > all!"
                        >
                        > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                        > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                        > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                        > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                        > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                        >
                        > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                        > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                        > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                        > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                        > the same book.
                        >
                        > p. 195
                        >
                        > "When I want to show the world my highest
                        > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                        > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                        > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                        > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                        > final for he represents my power in the seven
                        > lower worlds."
                        >
                        > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                        > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                        >
                        > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                        > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                        > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                        > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                        > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                        > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                        > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                        >
                        > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                        >
                        > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                        > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                        > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                        > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                        > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                        > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                        > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                        > book would mention this many and then the
                        > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                        > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                        > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                        > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                        >
                        > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                        > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                        > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                        > of the chapter:
                        >
                        > p. 197
                        >
                        > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                        > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                        > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                        > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                        > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                        >
                        > p. 199
                        >
                        > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                        > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                        > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                        > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                        > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                        >
                        > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                        > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                        > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                        > other time mentions seven spheres.
                        >
                        > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                        > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                        > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                        > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                        >
                        > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                        > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                        > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                        > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                        > a total of only seven planets.
                        >
                        > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                        > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                        > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                        > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                        > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                        > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                        > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                        > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                        > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                        > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                        > was already known to history? How much was in
                        > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                        > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                        > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                        > how much of the material had actually come direct
                        > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                        > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                        >
                        > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                        > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                        > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                        > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                        > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                        > "Body"
                        >
                        > Hello Etznab,
                        >
                        > You make some good points and have
                        >
                        > brought up more information to point
                        >
                        > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                        >
                        > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                        >
                        > and D.W.T.M. later.
                        >
                        > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                        >
                        > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                        >
                        > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                        >
                        > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                        >
                        > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                        >
                        > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                        >
                        > overlook this point. And, look at how
                        >
                        > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                        >
                        > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                        >
                        > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                        >
                        > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                        > D
                        >
                        > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                        >
                        > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                        >
                        > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                        >
                        > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                        >
                        > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                        >
                        > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                        >
                        > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                        >
                        > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                        >
                        > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                        >
                        > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                        >
                        > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                        >
                        > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                        >
                        > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                        >
                        > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                        >
                        > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                        >
                        > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                        >
                        > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                        >
                        > Plane!
                        >
                        > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                        >
                        > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                        >
                        > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                        >
                        > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                        >
                        > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                        >
                        > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                        >
                        > Etznab wrote:
                        >
                        > I would like to know the difference between
                        >
                        > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                        >
                        > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                        >
                        > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                        >
                        > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                        >
                        > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                        > D
                        >
                        > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                        >
                        > This is something I've been contemplating
                        >
                        > for some time: What is different with the two
                        >
                        > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                        >
                        > about this subject).
                        >
                        > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                        >
                        > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                        >
                        > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                        >
                        > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                        >
                        > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                        >
                        > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                        >
                        > are many different ones - including the physical
                        >
                        > body.
                        >
                        > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                        >
                        > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                        >
                        > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                        >
                        > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                        >
                        > Something like another dimension.
                        >
                        > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                        >
                        > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                        >
                        > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                        >
                        > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                        >
                        > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                        >
                        > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                        >
                        > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                        >
                        > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                        >
                        > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                        >
                        > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                        >
                        > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                        >
                        > it reads like that was his first vis
                        > it. However, in
                        >
                        > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                        >
                        > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                        >
                        > already!
                        >
                        > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                        >
                        > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                        >
                        > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                        >
                        > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                        >
                        > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                        >
                        > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                        >
                        > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                        >
                        > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                        >
                        > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                        >
                        > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                        >
                        > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                        >
                        > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                        >
                        > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                        >
                        > Fang account and the year 1957.
                        >
                        > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                        >
                        > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                        >
                        > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                        >
                        > experience?
                        >
                        > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                        >
                        > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                        >
                        > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                        >
                        > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                        >
                        > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                        >
                        > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                        >
                        > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                        >
                        > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                        >
                        > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                        >
                        > I've
                        > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                        >
                        > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                        >
                        > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                        >
                        > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                        >
                        > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                        >
                        > had escaped me up until now.
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                        > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                        >
                        > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                        >
                        > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                        >
                        > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                        >
                        > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                        >
                        > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                        >
                        > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                        >
                        > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                        >
                        > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                        >
                        > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                        >
                        > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                        >
                        > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                        >
                        > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                        >
                        > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                        >
                        > teach and other "believers" experience!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        >
                        > It was bad enough that HK sold
                        >
                        > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                        >
                        > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                        >
                        > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                        > 0D
                        >
                        > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                        >
                        > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                        >
                        > The truth has (once again) been
                        >
                        > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                        >
                        > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                        >
                        > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                        >
                        > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                        >
                        > like than portrait like!
                        >
                        > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                        >
                        > a more modern, shaved look, and
                        >
                        > does not appear as thin as it really
                        >
                        > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                        >
                        > different too).
                        >
                        > When looking at the front cover photo,
                        >
                        > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                        >
                        > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                        >
                        > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                        >
                        > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                        >
                        > makes Klemp look younger.
                        >
                        > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                        >
                        > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                        >
                        > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                        >
                        > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                        >
                        > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                        >
                        > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                        >
                        > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                        >
                        > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                        >
                        > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                        >
                        > a "true friend" say such nasty
                        > and mean
                        >
                        > things to you? These RESAs and other
                        >
                        > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                        >
                        > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                        >
                        > now they see that there are strings
                        >
                        > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                        >
                        > ship.
                        >
                        > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                        >
                        > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                        >
                        > himself, or give it to you... free of
                        >
                        > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                        >
                        > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                        >
                        > make even more money from his image.
                        >
                        > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                        >
                        > as though he has a big hole running
                        >
                        > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                        >
                        > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                        >
                        > The chain would go through his ears!
                        >
                        > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                        >
                        > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                        >
                        > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                        >
                        > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                        >
                        >
                        > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                        >


                        Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                      • noneckster
                        RESPONDING TO THE THREAD: I think it s worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          RESPONDING TO THE THREAD:

                          I think it's worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very core. To reread eck books hoping to get some wisdom is foolish imo. It's like drinking Koolaide that tastes like a sugary drink, but may be tainted with poison. : ) Current eckists are just willfully ignorant. There really isn't much of an excuse for their behavior, at this point. If Iranians can communicate and find out information via the internet and cell phone, then access in other Democracies around the world is a click away. Those practicing eckist of today are simply CHOOSING to not know all the facts.

                          Before the internet I could understand how it was easier to get duped, conned. The past is the past, for sure, but to not know the past, of course, is to increase the likelihood of repeating it. The study of bad cultic and religious practices is a very important activity IMO.

                          Non eckster ; )

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Prometheus
                          >
                          > Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.
                          >
                          > Jay
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                          > Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                          > fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                          > that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                          > this is similar to beating a dead horse
                          > when sorting out the truth from all the
                          > crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                          > distracted from the current, now, happenings
                          > under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.
                          >
                          > Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                          > He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                          > the hook via his distractions involving
                          > Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                          > avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                          > PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                          > the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                          > in order to confuse the issue.
                          >
                          > Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                          > but became more and more insane over
                          > time. And, look at those "creative" people
                          > in business who have scammed thousands
                          > of individuals out of their life savings! They
                          > even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                          > foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                          > Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                          > expected from a person who paid to be
                          > included in "The International Who's Who
                          > of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                          > why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                          > "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                          > themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                          > Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                          > redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                          > historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                          > EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                          > with their current views of society and how
                          > it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                          > are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                          > Masters?
                          >
                          > BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                          > a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                          > a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                          > actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                          > truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                          > much closer to Fiction than to "truth."
                          >
                          > Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                          > "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                          > that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                          > as well!
                          >
                          > As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                          > it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                          > With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                          > said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                          > or any other EK Master!
                          >
                          > FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                          > This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                          > "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                          > the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                          > the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                          > about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                          > to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                          > looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                          > happens because asking too many questions shows
                          > spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                          > in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                          > comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                          > answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                          > the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                          > This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                          > works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                          > or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                          > within the Satsang Society.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > Jay wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Etznab
                          >
                          > Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                          > its a fictional piece based on the well known
                          > metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                          > I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                          > features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                          > multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                          > in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                          > Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                          > by clicking on the classes button and then the
                          > audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                          > them in order as not to get confused of what's
                          > being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                          > the particular section of Over soul seven and
                          > Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.
                          >
                          > g'luk
                          >
                          > Jay
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                          > >
                          > Etznab,
                          > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                          > >
                          > Prometheus,
                          >
                          > Etznab wrote:
                          > > No. I haven't.
                          > >
                          > > The reference to number seven interests me.
                          > > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                          > > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                          > > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                          > > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                          > > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                          > > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                          > > to speak. Examples:
                          > >
                          > > p. 156
                          > >
                          > > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                          > > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                          > > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                          > > all!"
                          > >
                          > > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                          > > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                          > > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                          > > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                          > > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                          > >
                          > > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                          > > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                          > > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                          > > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                          > > the same book.
                          > >
                          > > p. 195
                          > >
                          > > "When I want to show the world my highest
                          > > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                          > > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                          > > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                          > > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                          > > final for he represents my power in the seven
                          > > lower worlds."
                          > >
                          > > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                          > > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                          > >
                          > > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                          > > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                          > > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                          > > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                          > > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                          > > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                          > > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                          > >
                          > > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                          > >
                          > > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                          > > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                          > > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                          > > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                          > > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                          > > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                          > > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                          > > book would mention this many and then the
                          > > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                          > > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                          > > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                          > > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                          > >
                          > > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                          > > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                          > > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                          > > of the chapter:
                          > >
                          > > p. 197
                          > >
                          > > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                          > > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                          > > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                          > > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                          > > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                          > >
                          > > p. 199
                          > >
                          > > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                          > > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                          > > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                          > > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                          > > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                          > >
                          > > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                          > > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                          > > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                          > > other time mentions seven spheres.
                          > >
                          > > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                          > > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                          > > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                          > > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                          > >
                          > > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                          > > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                          > > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                          > > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                          > > a total of only seven planets.
                          > >
                          > > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                          > > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                          > > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                          > > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                          > > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                          > > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                          > > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                          > > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                          > > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                          > > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                          > > was already known to history? How much was in
                          > > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                          > > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                          > > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                          > > how much of the material had actually come direct
                          > > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                          > > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                          > >
                          > > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                          > > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                          > > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                          > > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                          > >
                          > > Etznab
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                          > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                          > > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                          > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                          > > "Body"
                          > >
                          > > Hello Etznab,
                          > >
                          > > You make some good points and have
                          > >
                          > > brought up more information to point
                          > >
                          > > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                          > >
                          > > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                          > >
                          > > and D.W.T.M. later.
                          > >
                          > > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                          > >
                          > > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                          > >
                          > > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                          > >
                          > > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                          > >
                          > > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                          > >
                          > > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                          > >
                          > > overlook this point. And, look at how
                          > >
                          > > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                          > >
                          > > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                          > >
                          > > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                          > >
                          > > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                          > > D
                          > >
                          > > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                          > >
                          > > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                          > >
                          > > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                          > >
                          > > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                          > >
                          > > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                          > >
                          > > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                          > >
                          > > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                          > >
                          > > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                          > >
                          > > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                          > >
                          > > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                          > >
                          > > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                          > >
                          > > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                          > >
                          > > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                          > >
                          > > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                          > >
                          > > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                          > >
                          > > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                          > >
                          > > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                          > >
                          > > Plane!
                          > >
                          > > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                          > >
                          > > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                          > >
                          > > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                          > >
                          > > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                          > >
                          > > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                          > >
                          > > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                          > >
                          > > Etznab wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I would like to know the difference between
                          > >
                          > > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                          > >
                          > > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                          > >
                          > > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                          > >
                          > > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                          > >
                          > > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                          > > D
                          > >
                          > > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                          > >
                          > > This is something I've been contemplating
                          > >
                          > > for some time: What is different with the two
                          > >
                          > > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                          > >
                          > > about this subject).
                          > >
                          > > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                          > >
                          > > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                          > >
                          > > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                          > >
                          > > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                          > >
                          > > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                          > >
                          > > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                          > >
                          > > are many different ones - including the physical
                          > >
                          > > body.
                          > >
                          > > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                          > >
                          > > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                          > >
                          > > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                          > >
                          > > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                          > >
                          > > Something like another dimension.
                          > >
                          > > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                          > >
                          > > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                          > >
                          > > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                          > >
                          > > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                          > >
                          > > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                          > >
                          > > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                          > >
                          > > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                          > >
                          > > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                          > >
                          > > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                          > >
                          > > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                          > >
                          > > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                          > >
                          > > it reads like that was his first vis
                          > > it. However, in
                          > >
                          > > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                          > >
                          > > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                          > >
                          > > already!
                          > >
                          > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                          > >
                          > > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                          > >
                          > > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                          > >
                          > > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                          > >
                          > > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                          > >
                          > > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                          > >
                          > > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                          > >
                          > > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                          > >
                          > > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                          > >
                          > > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                          > >
                          > > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                          > >
                          > > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                          > >
                          > > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                          > >
                          > > Fang account and the year 1957.
                          > >
                          > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                          > >
                          > > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                          > >
                          > > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                          > >
                          > > experience?
                          > >
                          > > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                          > >
                          > > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                          > >
                          > > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                          > >
                          > > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                          > >
                          > > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                          > >
                          > > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                          > >
                          > > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                          > >
                          > > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                          > >
                          > > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                          > >
                          > > I've
                          > > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                          > >
                          > > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                          > >
                          > > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                          > >
                          > > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                          > >
                          > > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                          > >
                          > > had escaped me up until now.
                          > >
                          > > Etznab
                          > >
                          > > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                          > >
                          > > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                          > >
                          > > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                          > >
                          > > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                          > >
                          > > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                          > >
                          > > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                          > >
                          > > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                          > >
                          > > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                          > >
                          > > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                          > >
                          > > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                          > >
                          > > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                          > >
                          > > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                          > >
                          > > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                          > >
                          > > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                          > >
                          > > teach and other "believers" experience!
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                          > >
                          > > Hello All,
                          > >
                          > > It was bad enough that HK sold
                          > >
                          > > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                          > >
                          > > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                          > >
                          > > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                          > > 0D
                          > >
                          > > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                          > >
                          > > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                          > >
                          > > The truth has (once again) been
                          > >
                          > > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                          > >
                          > > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                          > >
                          > > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                          > >
                          > > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                          > >
                          > > like than portrait like!
                          > >
                          > > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                          > >
                          > > a more modern, shaved look, and
                          > >
                          > > does not appear as thin as it really
                          > >
                          > > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                          > >
                          > > different too).
                          > >
                          > > When looking at the front cover photo,
                          > >
                          > > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                          > >
                          > > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                          > >
                          > > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                          > >
                          > > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                          > >
                          > > makes Klemp look younger.
                          > >
                          > > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                          > >
                          > > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                          > >
                          > > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                          > >
                          > > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                          > >
                          > > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                          > >
                          > > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                          > >
                          > > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                          > >
                          > > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                          > >
                          > > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                          > >
                          > > a "true friend" say such nasty
                          > > and mean
                          > >
                          > > things to you? These RESAs and other
                          > >
                          > > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                          > >
                          > > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                          > >
                          > > now they see that there are strings
                          > >
                          > > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                          > >
                          > > ship.
                          > >
                          > > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                          > >
                          > > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                          > >
                          > > himself, or give it to you... free of
                          > >
                          > > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                          > >
                          > > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                          > >
                          > > make even more money from his image.
                          > >
                          > > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                          > >
                          > > as though he has a big hole running
                          > >
                          > > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                          > >
                          > > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                          > >
                          > > The chain would go through his ears!
                          > >
                          > > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                          > >
                          > > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                          > >
                          > > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                          > >
                          > > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Jay and All, Marman is connected to Klemp because he is an EKist (7th Initiate) and claims to be a long-time friend of HK s. Marman (Doug) is an
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Jay and All,
                            Marman is connected to Klemp
                            because he is an EKist (7th Initiate)
                            and claims to be a long-time friend
                            of HK's. Marman (Doug) is an apologist
                            for both Klemp and PT, and has a
                            following from an EK fringe group.
                            Just read some of DM's older dialogue
                            and arguments, especially, with David
                            Lane. Steve Runfeldt (EK Internet PR
                            Guru) is another EK apologist who, also,
                            rates a D- when debating (online) with
                            David Lane.

                            BTW- I think that I first read Jane Roberts'
                            books in the early 1970's and once was
                            tempted to stop by for a short visit with
                            her and her husband in Binghamton (since
                            I was passing through at the time). But,
                            my passenger didn't want to stop. I got
                            the impression from reading her books
                            that writing, for Jane, was like a form of
                            therapy that helped to give her some sort
                            of balance, peace of mind, and meaning
                            for her life that helped it all to make sense.
                            From her descriptions, about herself, she
                            came across as having a lot of nervous
                            energy and smoking her cigarettes seemed
                            to calm her. 8th Initiate Millie (Workman)
                            Moore was much the same, but used the
                            spoken word versus the written word.

                            BTW-What do you think about Marman's
                            TS comments about Rebazar and the Holocaust
                            "probably" being myth?

                            Prometheus


                            Jay wrote:

                            Hi Prometheus

                            Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word
                            but how is Marman connected with HK?..and
                            yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                            being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over
                            7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence
                            of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth
                            stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab
                            had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking
                            back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past
                            is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the
                            present.

                            Jay

                            From: prometheus
                            Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                            Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                            Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                            fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                            that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                            this is similar to beating a dead horse
                            when sorting out the truth from all the
                            crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                            distracted from the current, now, happenings
                            under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                            Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                            He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                            the hook via his distractions involving
                            Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                            avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                            PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                            the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                            in order to confuse the issue.

                            Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                            but became more and more insane over
                            time. And, look at those "creative" people
                            in business who have scammed thousands
                            of individuals out of their life savings! They
                            even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                            foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                            Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                            expected from a person who paid to be
                            included in "The International Who's Who
                            of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                            why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                            "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                            themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                            Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                            redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                            historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                            EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                            with their current views of society and how
                            it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                            are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                            Masters?

                            BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                            a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                            a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                            actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                            truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                            much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                            Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                            "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                            that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                            as well!

                            As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                            it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                            With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                            said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                            or any other EK Master!

                            FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                            This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                            "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                            the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                            the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                            about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                            to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                            looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                            happens because asking too many questions shows
                            spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                            in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                            comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                            answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                            the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                            This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                            works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                            or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                            within the Satsang Society.

                            Prometheus

                            Jay wrote:

                            Dear Etznab

                            Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                            its a fictional piece based on the well known
                            metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                            I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                            features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                            multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                            in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                            Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                            by clicking on the classes button and then the
                            audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                            them in order as not to get confused of what's
                            being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                            the particular section of Over soul seven and
                            Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                            g'luk

                            Jay

                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ____________ _________ _________ __
                            > From: Jason

                            >
                            >

                            Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                            >
                            Etznab,
                            Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                            >
                            Prometheus,

                            Etznab wrote:
                            > No. I haven't.
                            >
                            > The reference to number seven interests me.
                            > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                            > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                            > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                            > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                            > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                            > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                            > to speak. Examples:
                            >
                            > p. 156
                            >
                            > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                            > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                            > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                            > all!"
                            >
                            > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                            > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                            > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                            > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                            > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                            >
                            > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                            > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                            > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                            > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                            > the same book.
                            >
                            > p. 195
                            >
                            > "When I want to show the world my highest
                            > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                            > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                            > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                            > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                            > final for he represents my power in the seven
                            > lower worlds."
                            >
                            > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                            > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                            >
                            > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                            > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                            > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                            > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                            > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                            > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                            > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                            >
                            > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                            >
                            > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                            > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                            > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                            > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                            > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                            > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                            > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                            > book would mention this many and then the
                            > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                            > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                            > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                            > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                            >
                            > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                            > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                            > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                            > of the chapter:
                            >
                            > p. 197
                            >
                            > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                            > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                            > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                            > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                            > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                            >
                            > p. 199
                            >
                            > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                            > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                            > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                            > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                            > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                            >
                            > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                            > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                            > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                            > other time mentions seven spheres.
                            >
                            > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                            > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                            > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                            > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                            >
                            > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                            > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                            > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                            > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                            > a total of only seven planets.
                            >
                            > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                            > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                            > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                            > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                            > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                            > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                            > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                            > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                            > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                            > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                            > was already known to history? How much was in
                            > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                            > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                            > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                            > how much of the material had actually come direct
                            > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                            > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                            >
                            > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                            > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                            > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                            > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                            >
                            > Etznab
                            >
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            I m not so sure the past is a dead horse . In fact, I would call it very much alive and is the basis for many people s present & future beliefs about numerous
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".
                              In fact, I would call it very much alive and is
                              the basis for many people's present & future
                              beliefs about numerous things.

                              Going back and clarifying the past is what
                              I am seeking to do, by isolating the context
                              of those many stories I have read and heard
                              told in Eckankar books and discussions.

                              This is something I've been wanting to do
                              for a long time. Establish the "context". For
                              example, What is the literal truth and what
                              is not?

                              Here is why I think this important. When I
                              can prove beyond a doubt that something is
                              fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that
                              regard. It's power over me would not be the
                              same, not have the same influence & power
                              over my belief system and psyche as some-
                              thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With
                              myth and fiction - knowing a source is that -
                              it leaves me with the liberty to explore further
                              and to learn how the story came about in the
                              first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the
                              people who take pseudo religion and history
                              to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.
                              I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &
                              infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my
                              conscience, living with the thought I am know-
                              ingly spreading fact for fiction.

                              BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.
                              I'm just now getting around to reading mail.

                              Etznab





                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm
                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                              Soul "Body"








                              Hi Prometheus

                              Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman
                              connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                              being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just
                              mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane
                              Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had
                              in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a
                              dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk
                              in the present.

                              Jay

                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                              "Body"













                              Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,

                              Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's

                              fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam

                              that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that

                              this is similar to beating a dead horse

                              when sorting out the truth from all the

                              crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be

                              distracted from the current, now, happenings

                              under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.


                              =0
                              A
                              Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.

                              He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off

                              the hook via his distractions involving

                              Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,

                              avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon

                              PT's "creative writing" by manipulating

                              the lies and myth that Twitchell created

                              in order to confuse the issue.



                              Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,

                              but became more and more insane over

                              time. And, look at those "creative" people

                              in business who have scammed thousands

                              of individuals out of their life savings! They

                              even scammed hospitals and non-profit

                              foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!

                              Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's

                              expected from a person who paid to be

                              included in "The International Who's Who

                              of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,

                              why do EKists need Klemp when they can

                              "create" their own reality/destiny and make

                              themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a

                              Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is

                              redundant and lives in the past by quoting

                              historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote

                              EK Masters, still living in a physical body,

                              with their current views of society and how

                              it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where

                              are these relevant "insights" from these EK

                              Masters?



                              BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote

                              a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes

                              a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,

                              actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real

                              truth about Marman's book is that it comes

                              much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                              Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that

                              "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and

                              that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"

                              as well!



                              As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"

                              it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues

                              With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever

                              said/written about his discussions with Rebazar

                              or any other EK Master!



                              FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!

                              This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the

                              "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as

                              the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as

                              the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned

                              about this "upper region," although, it is referred

                              to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-

                              looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This

                              happens because asking too many questions shows

                              spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and

                              in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"

                              comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for

                              answers. However, all "answers" must agree with

                              the same text that contain the conflicting info!

                              This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma

                              works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,

                              or they're Black Ball
                              ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"

                              within the Satsang Society.



                              Prometheus



                              Jay wrote:



                              Dear Etznab



                              Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,

                              its a fictional piece based on the well known

                              metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..

                              I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson

                              features it as part of his hypothesis as us having

                              multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,

                              in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher

                              Consciousness Society website. You'll find them

                              by clicking on the classes button and then the

                              audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to

                              them in order as not to get confused of what's

                              being discussed and explained by Johnson,

                              the particular section of Over soul seven and

                              Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                              g'luk



                              Jay



                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > ____________ _________ _________ __

                              > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                              >

                              >



                              Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                              >

                              Etznab,

                              Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                              >

                              Prometheus,



                              Etznab wrote:

                              > No. I haven't.

                              >

                              > The reference to number seven interests me.

                              > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are

                              > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v
                              ersion of

                              > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave

                              > me the impression of eight basic planes, where

                              > the eighth (and highest) was considered above

                              > them all. Like, something on another level, so

                              > to speak. Examples:

                              >

                              > p. 156

                              >

                              > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet

                              > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres

                              > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear

                              > all!"

                              >

                              > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,

                              > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm

                              > not sure. That quote is on the second page

                              > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.

                              > Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                              >

                              > For some reason, I'm under the impression

                              > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from

                              > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the

                              > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in

                              > the same book.

                              >

                              > p. 195

                              >

                              > "When I want to show the world my highest

                              > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.

                              > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the

                              > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will

                              > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree

                              > final for he represents my power in the seven

                              > lower worlds."

                              >

                              > [That was fro
                              m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.

                              > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                              >

                              > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in

                              > my earlier post. The being supposed to have

                              > spoken those words was either Anami, or the

                              > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could

                              > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that

                              > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.

                              > Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                              >

                              > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                              >

                              > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.

                              > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?

                              > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental

                              > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami

                              > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but

                              > I suspect the earlier models had around eight

                              > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's

                              > book would mention this many and then the

                              > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give

                              > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative

                              > haste, and will have to go back & check the

                              > names of the planes for accuracy.)

                              >

                              > In the next chapter following that one (THE

                              > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs

                              > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph

                              > of the chapter:

                              >

                              > p. 1
                              97

                              >

                              > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take

                              > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond

                              > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth

                              > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So

                              > you will then know for yourself. [....]

                              >

                              > p. 199

                              >

                              > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,

                              > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are

                              > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must

                              > serve to take the message of the divine to all my

                              > creations throughout the seven spheres."

                              >

                              > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And

                              > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,

                              > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-

                              > other time mentions seven spheres.

                              >

                              > It was the context from those chapters that gave me

                              > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",

                              > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a

                              > place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                              >

                              > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.

                              > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to

                              > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even

                              > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in

                              > a total of only seven planets.

                              >

                              > As I begin re
                              ading through the Eck books again -

                              > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious

                              > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,

                              > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing

                              > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's

                              > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to

                              > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand

                              > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was

                              > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                              > materials. Like, how much of it was material that

                              > was already known to history? How much was in

                              > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D

                              > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?

                              > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,

                              > how much of the material had actually come direct

                              > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens

                              > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                              >

                              > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and

                              > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,

                              > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with

                              > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                              >

                              > Etznab

                              >

                              > -----Original Message-----

                              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>

                              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                              > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20
                              09 1:41 pm

                              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.
                              the Soul

                              > "Body"

                              >

                              > Hello Etznab,

                              >

                              > You make some good points and have

                              >

                              > brought up more information to point

                              >

                              > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                              >

                              > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                              >

                              > and D.W.T.M. later.

                              >

                              > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                              >

                              > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                              >

                              > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                              >

                              > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                              >

                              > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                              >

                              > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                              >

                              > overlook this point. And, look at how

                              >

                              > many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                              >

                              > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                              >

                              > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                              >

                              > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0

                              > D

                              >

                              > Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                              >

                              > under Klemp's rule(s)!

                              >

                              > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                              >

                              > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                              >

                              > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                              >

                              > Over-Soul and that
                              these Souls need to

                              >

                              > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                              >

                              > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                              >

                              > being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                              >

                              > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                              >

                              > by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                              >

                              > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                              >

                              > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                              >

                              > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                              >

                              > Prometheus

                              >

                              > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                              >

                              > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                              >

                              > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                              >

                              > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                              >

                              > Plane!

                              >

                              > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                              >

                              > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                              >

                              > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                              >

                              > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                              >

                              > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                              >

                              > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                              >

                              > Etznab wrote:

                              >

                              > I would like to know the difference between

                              >

                              > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                              >

                              > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                              >

                              > about the inner=2
                              0form of the Living Eck Master.

                              >

                              > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                              >

                              > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0

                              > D

                              >

                              > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                              >

                              > This is something I've been contemplating

                              >

                              > for some time: What is different with the two

                              >

                              > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                              >

                              > about this subject).

                              >

                              > There's another thing on this subject, and it

                              >

                              > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                              >

                              > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                              >

                              > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                              >

                              > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                              >

                              > any of the other lower world bodies where there

                              >

                              > are many different ones - including the physical

                              >

                              > body.

                              >

                              > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                              >

                              > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                              >

                              > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                              >

                              > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                              >

                              > Something like another dimension.

                              >

                              > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                              >

                              > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                              >

                              > the L
                              iving Eck Master become so important?

                              >

                              > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                              >

                              > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                              >

                              > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                              >

                              > understanding is that the astral body is limited

                              >

                              > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                              >

                              > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                              >

                              > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                              >

                              > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                              >

                              > it reads like that was his first vis

                              > it. However, in

                              >

                              > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                              >

                              > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                              >

                              > already!

                              >

                              > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                              >

                              > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                              >

                              > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                              >

                              > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                              >

                              > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                              >

                              > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                              >

                              > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                              >

                              > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                              >

                              > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                              >

                              > the way to the nameless
                              plane. Anami. & not

                              >

                              > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                              >

                              > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                              >

                              > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                              >

                              > Fang account and the year 1957.

                              >

                              > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                              >

                              > I wonder, were those two different books, the

                              >

                              > two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                              >

                              > experience?

                              >

                              > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                              >

                              > online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                              >

                              > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                              >

                              > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                              >

                              > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                              >

                              > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                              >

                              > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                              >

                              > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                              >

                              > A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                              >

                              > I've

                              > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                              >

                              > books and read from the beginning, looking at

                              >

                              > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                              >

                              > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                              >

                              > this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                              >

                              > had20escaped me up until now.

                              >

                              > Etznab

                              >

                              > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                              >

                              > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                              >

                              > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                              >

                              > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                              >

                              > or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                              >

                              > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                              >

                              > of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                              >

                              > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                              >

                              > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                              >

                              > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                              >

                              > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                              >

                              > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                              >

                              > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                              >

                              > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                              >

                              > teach and other "believers" experience!

                              >

                              > Prometheus

                              >

                              > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                              >

                              > Hello All,

                              >

                              > It was bad enough that HK sold

                              >

                              > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                              >

                              > portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                              >

                              > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).

                              > 0D

                              >

                              > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                              =0
                              A
                              >

                              > portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                              >

                              > The truth has (once again) been

                              >

                              > embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                              >

                              > no doubt, likes this rendition because

                              >

                              > it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                              >

                              > this drawing looks more "sketch"

                              >

                              > like than portrait like!

                              >

                              > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                              >

                              > a more modern, shaved look, and

                              >

                              > does not appear as thin as it really

                              >

                              > is (the inside portion of his ear is

                              >

                              > different too).

                              >

                              > When looking at the front cover photo,

                              >

                              > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                              >

                              > World of ECKankar" we can see that

                              >

                              > Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                              >

                              > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                              >

                              > makes Klemp look younger.

                              >

                              > The question ECKists should be asking is,

                              >

                              > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                              >

                              > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                              >

                              > followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                              >

                              > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                              >

                              > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                              >

                              > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0
                              D

                              >

                              > I think it's funny that Klemp names

                              >

                              > this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                              >

                              > a "true friend" say such nasty

                              > and mean

                              >

                              > things to you? These RESAs and other

                              >

                              > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                              >

                              > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                              >

                              > now they see that there are strings

                              >

                              > attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                              >

                              > ship.

                              >

                              > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                              >

                              > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                              >

                              > himself, or give it to you... free of

                              >

                              > charge? Hmmmmmm.

                              >

                              > On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                              >

                              > make even more money from his image.

                              >

                              > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                              >

                              > as though he has a big hole running

                              >

                              > through his head. So, maybe HK could

                              >

                              > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                              >

                              > The chain would go through his ears!

                              >

                              > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                              >

                              > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                              >

                              > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                              >

                              > he does with portraits, books, etc.

                              >

                              > Prometheus

                              >

                              &
                              gt;

                              > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                              .yahoo.com

                              >

                              >

                              > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                              .yahoo.com

                              >











                              Send instant messages to your online friends
                              http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              Typo correction. The following sentence I don t have to have guilt on my conscience, living with the thought I am knowingly spreading fact for fiction.
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Typo correction. The following sentence

                                "I don't have to have guilt on my conscience,
                                living with the thought I am knowingly spreading
                                fact for fiction."

                                should read: fiction for fact, instead of fact
                                for fiction.

                                Etznab

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: etznab@...
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 6:47 pm
                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                                Soul "Body"










                                I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".

                                In fact, I would call it very much alive and is

                                the basis for many people's present & future

                                beliefs about numerous things.



                                Going back and clarifying the past is what

                                I am seeking to do, by isolating the context

                                of those many stories I have read and heard

                                told in Eckankar books and discussions.



                                This is something I've been wanting to do

                                for a long time. Establish the "context". For

                                example, What is the literal truth and what

                                is not?



                                Here is why I think this important. When I

                                can prove beyond a doubt that something is

                                fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that

                                regard. It's power over me would not be the

                                same, not have the same influence & power

                                over my belief system and psyche as some-

                                thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With

                                myth and fiction - knowing a source is that
                                -

                                it leaves me with the liberty to explore further

                                and to learn how the story came about in the

                                first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the

                                people who take pseudo religion and history

                                to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.

                                I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &

                                infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my

                                conscience, living with the thought I am know-

                                ingly spreading fact for fiction.



                                BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.

                                I'm just now getting around to reading mail.



                                Etznab



                                -----Original Message-----

                                From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                                Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm

                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the

                                Soul "Body"



                                Hi Prometheus



                                Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman

                                connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff

                                being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just

                                mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane

                                Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had

                                in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a

                                dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk

                                in the present.



                                Jay



                                =0
                                AFrom: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                                Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08

                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul

                                "Body"



                                Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,



                                Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's



                                fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam



                                that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that



                                this is similar to beating a dead horse



                                when sorting out the truth from all the



                                crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be



                                distracted from the current, now, happenings



                                under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.



                                =0

                                A

                                Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.



                                He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off



                                the hook via his distractions involving



                                Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,



                                avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon



                                PT's "creative writing" by manipulating



                                the lies and myth that Twitchell created



                                in order to confuse the issue.



                                Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,



                                but became more and more insane over



                                time. And, look at those "creative" people



                                in business who have scammed thousands



                                of individuals out of their life savings! They



                                even scammed hospitals and non-profit



                                foundations!
                                Very "creative" weren't they!



                                Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's



                                expected from a person who paid to be



                                included in "The International Who's Who



                                of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,



                                why do EKists need Klemp when they can



                                "create" their own reality/destiny and make



                                themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a



                                Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is



                                redundant and lives in the past by quoting



                                historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote



                                EK Masters, still living in a physical body,



                                with their current views of society and how



                                it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where



                                are these relevant "insights" from these EK



                                Masters?



                                BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote



                                a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes



                                a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,



                                actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real



                                truth about Marman's book is that it comes



                                much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                                Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that



                                "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and



                                that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"



                                as well!



                                As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"



                                it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues




                                With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever



                                said/written about his discussions with Rebazar



                                or any other EK Master!



                                FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!



                                This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the



                                "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as



                                the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as



                                the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned



                                about this "upper region," although, it is referred



                                to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-



                                looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This



                                happens because asking too many questions shows



                                spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and



                                in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"



                                comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for



                                answers. However, all "answers" must agree with



                                the same text that contain the conflicting info!



                                This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma



                                works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,



                                or they're Black Ball

                                ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"



                                within the Satsang Society.



                                Prometheus



                                Jay wrote:



                                Dear Etznab



                                Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,



                                its a fictional piece based on the well20known



                                metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..



                                I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson



                                features it as part of his hypothesis as us having



                                multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,



                                in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher



                                Consciousness Society website. You'll find them



                                by clicking on the classes button and then the



                                audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to



                                them in order as not to get confused of what's



                                being discussed and explained by Johnson,



                                the particular section of Over soul seven and



                                Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                                g'luk



                                Jay



                                >



                                >



                                >



                                > ____________ _________ _________ __



                                > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                                >



                                >



                                Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                                >



                                Etznab,



                                Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                                >



                                Prometheus,



                                Etznab wrote:



                                > No. I haven't.



                                >



                                > The reference to number seven interests me.



                                > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are



                                > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v

                                ersion of=0
                                D



                                > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave



                                > me the impression of eight basic planes, where



                                > the eighth (and highest) was considered above



                                > them all. Like, something on another level, so



                                > to speak. Examples:



                                >



                                > p. 156



                                >



                                > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet



                                > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres



                                > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear



                                > all!"



                                >



                                > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,



                                > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm



                                > not sure. That quote is on the second page



                                > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.



                                > Question: Why does he mention seven?]



                                >



                                > For some reason, I'm under the impression



                                > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from



                                > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the



                                > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in



                                > the same book.



                                >



                                > p. 195



                                >



                                > "When I want to show the world my highest



                                > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.



                                > This is my greatest gift and boon.=2
                                0He is the



                                > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will



                                > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree



                                > final for he represents my power in the seven



                                > lower worlds."



                                >



                                > [That was fro

                                m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.



                                > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the



                                >



                                > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in



                                > my earlier post. The being supposed to have



                                > spoken those words was either Anami, or the



                                > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could



                                > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that



                                > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.



                                > Consider the last seven words in that quote:



                                >



                                > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."



                                >



                                > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.



                                > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?



                                > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental



                                > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami



                                > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but



                                > I suspect the earlier models had around eight



                                > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's



                                > book=2
                                0would mention this many and then the



                                > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give



                                > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative



                                > haste, and will have to go back & check the



                                > names of the planes for accuracy.)



                                >



                                > In the next chapter following that one (THE



                                > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs



                                > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph



                                > of the chapter:



                                >



                                > p. 1

                                97



                                >



                                > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take



                                > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond



                                > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth



                                > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So



                                > you will then know for yourself. [....]



                                >



                                > p. 199



                                >



                                > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,



                                > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are



                                > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must



                                > serve to take the message of the divine to all my



                                > creations throughout the seven spheres."



                                >



                                > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And



                                > by non
                                e other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,



                                > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-



                                > other time mentions seven spheres.



                                >



                                > It was the context from those chapters that gave me



                                > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",



                                > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a



                                > place "above" them and making a total of eight.



                                >



                                > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.



                                > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to



                                > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even



                                > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in



                                > a total of only seven planets.



                                >



                                > As I begin re

                                ading through the Eck books again -



                                > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious



                                > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,



                                > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing



                                > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's



                                > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to



                                > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand



                                > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was



                                > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                                =0
                                D

                                > materials. Like, how much of it was material that



                                > was already known to history? How much was in



                                > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D



                                > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?



                                > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,



                                > how much of the material had actually come direct



                                > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens



                                > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?



                                >



                                > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and



                                > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,



                                > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with



                                > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.



                                >



                                > Etznab



                                >



                                > -----Original Message-----



                                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>



                                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com



                                > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20

                                09 1:41 pm



                                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.

                                the Soul



                                > "Body"



                                >



                                > Hello Etznab,



                                >



                                > You make some good points and have



                                >



                                > brought up more information to point



                                =0
                                A>



                                > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.



                                >



                                > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"



                                >



                                > and D.W.T.M. later.



                                >



                                > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra



                                >



                                > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;



                                >



                                > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th



                                >



                                > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"



                                >



                                > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral



                                >



                                > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to



                                >



                                > overlook this point. And, look at how



                                >



                                > many years Klemp has instructed EKists



                                >



                                > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/



                                >



                                > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra



                                >



                                > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0



                                > D



                                >



                                > Chakra is still being used after 28 years



                                >



                                > under Klemp's rule(s)!



                                >



                                > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is



                                >



                                > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There



                                >



                                > is a belief that Groups
                                of Souls have an



                                >



                                > Over-Soul and that

                                these Souls need to



                                >



                                > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)



                                >



                                > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/



                                >



                                > being that same Over-Soul which, then,



                                >



                                > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can



                                >



                                > by-pass the hierarchy and can become



                                >



                                > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,



                                >



                                > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have



                                >



                                > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                                >



                                > Prometheus



                                >



                                > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI



                                >



                                > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is



                                >



                                > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"



                                >



                                > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th



                                >



                                > Plane!



                                >



                                > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"



                                >



                                > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,



                                >



                                > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect



                                >



                                > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "
                                advanced"



                                >



                                > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"



                                >



                                > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



                                >



                                > Etznab wrote:



                                >



                                > I would like to know the difference between



                                >



                                > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,



                                >



                                > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something



                                >



                                > about the inner=2

                                0form of the Living Eck Master.



                                >



                                > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called



                                >



                                > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0



                                > D



                                >



                                > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



                                >



                                > This is something I've been contemplating



                                >



                                > for some time: What is different with the two



                                >



                                > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me



                                >



                                > about this subject).



                                >



                                > There's another thing on this subject, and it



                                >



                                > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,



                                >



                                > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided



                                >



                                > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the




                                >



                                > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,



                                >



                                > any of the other lower world bodies where there



                                >



                                > are many different ones - including the physical



                                >



                                > body.



                                >



                                > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma



                                >



                                > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is



                                >



                                > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul



                                >



                                > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.



                                >



                                > Something like another dimension.



                                >



                                > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?



                                >



                                > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of



                                >



                                > the L

                                iving Eck Master become so important?



                                >



                                > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled



                                >



                                > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that



                                >



                                > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My



                                >



                                > understanding is that the astral body is limited



                                >



                                > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup



                                >



                                > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one=2
                                0would have



                                >



                                > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



                                >



                                > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book



                                >



                                > it reads like that was his first vis



                                > it. However, in



                                >



                                > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The



                                >



                                > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice



                                >



                                > already!



                                >



                                > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                                >



                                > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the



                                >



                                > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.



                                >



                                > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the



                                >



                                > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and



                                >



                                > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after



                                >



                                > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul



                                >



                                > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)



                                >



                                > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all



                                >



                                > the way to the nameless

                                plane. Anami. & not



                                >



                                > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem



                                >



                                &
                                gt; quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-



                                >



                                > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's



                                >



                                > Fang account and the year 1957.



                                >



                                > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                                >



                                > I wonder, were those two different books, the



                                >



                                > two different manuscripts, about the same basic



                                >



                                > experience?



                                >



                                > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an



                                >



                                > online version of The Path of the Masters? by



                                >



                                > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter



                                >



                                > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the



                                >



                                > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The



                                >



                                > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257



                                >



                                > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami



                                >



                                > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:



                                >



                                > A Talk With Rami Nuri.



                                >



                                > I've



                                > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early



                                >



                                > books and read from the beginning, looking at



                                >


                                0D
                                > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over



                                >



                                > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at



                                >



                                > this point in time. I'm discovering things that



                                >



                                > had20escaped me up until now.



                                >



                                > Etznab



                                >



                                > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                                >



                                > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



                                >



                                > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



                                >



                                > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



                                >



                                > or contemplate upon his Physical image via



                                >



                                > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



                                >



                                > of an Astral image. How is this the same as



                                >



                                > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



                                >



                                > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



                                >



                                > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



                                >



                                > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



                                >



                                > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



                                >



                                > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



                                >



                                > of the Lower Planes=2
                                0just as all other religions



                                >



                                > teach and other "believers" experience!



                                >



                                > Prometheus



                                >



                                > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



                                >



                                > Hello All,



                                >



                                > It was bad enough that HK sold



                                >



                                > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



                                >



                                > portrait. Now he's selling the "True



                                >



                                > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



                                > 0D



                                >



                                > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                                =0

                                A

                                >



                                > portrait accurately? No, not quite!



                                >



                                > The truth has (once again) been



                                >



                                > embellished and distorted! Klemp,



                                >



                                > no doubt, likes this rendition because



                                >



                                > it makes him appear younger. Thus,



                                >



                                > this drawing looks more "sketch"



                                >



                                > like than portrait like!



                                >



                                > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



                                >



                                > a more modern, shaved look, and



                                >



                                > does not appear as thin as it really



                                >



                                > is (t
                                he inside portion of his ear is



                                >



                                > different too).



                                >



                                > When looking at the front cover photo,



                                >



                                > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



                                >



                                > World of ECKankar" we can see that



                                >



                                > Klemp parts his hair on the side and



                                >



                                > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



                                >



                                > makes Klemp look younger.



                                >



                                > The question ECKists should be asking is,



                                >



                                > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



                                >



                                > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



                                >



                                > followers all want to "imagine" that they look



                                >



                                > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



                                >



                                > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



                                >



                                > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0

                                D



                                >



                                > I think it's funny that Klemp names



                                >



                                > this new portrait "True Friend." Would



                                >



                                > a "true friend" say such nasty



                                > and mean



                                >



                                > things to you? These RESAs and ot
                                her



                                >



                                > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



                                >



                                > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



                                >



                                > now they see that there are strings



                                >



                                > attached and that it's a one-way friend-



                                >



                                > ship.



                                >



                                > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



                                >



                                > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



                                >



                                > himself, or give it to you... free of



                                >



                                > charge? Hmmmmmm.



                                >



                                > On another note, I saw how Klemp can



                                >



                                > make even more money from his image.



                                >



                                > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



                                >



                                > as though he has a big hole running



                                >



                                > through his head. So, maybe HK could



                                >



                                > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



                                >



                                > The chain would go through his ears!



                                >



                                > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



                                >



                                > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK



                                >



                                > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



                                >


                                =0
                                A
                                > he does with portraits, books, etc.



                                >



                                > Prometheus



                                >



                                &

                                gt;



                                > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                                .yahoo.com



                                >



                                >



                                > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                                .yahoo.com



                                >



                                Send instant messages to your online friends

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