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HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

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  • prometheus_973
    Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that chelas should Gaze at a $ picture of himself, or contemplate upon his
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 22, 2009
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      Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
      is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
      chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
      or contemplate upon his Physical image via
      his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
      of an Astral image. How is this the same as
      meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
      Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
      with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
      than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
      Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
      (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
      of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
      teach and other "believers" experience!

      Prometheus


      Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

      Hello All,
      It was bad enough that HK sold
      his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
      portrait. Now he's selling the "True
      Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).

      But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
      portrait accurately? No, not quite!
      The truth has (once again) been
      embellished and distorted! Klemp,
      no doubt, likes this rendition because
      it makes him appear younger. Thus,
      this drawing looks more "sketch"
      like than portrait like!

      What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
      a more modern, shaved look, and
      does not appear as thin as it really
      is (the inside portion of his ear is
      different too).

      When looking at the front cover photo,
      of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
      World of ECKankar" we can see that
      Klemp parts his hair on the side and
      does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
      makes Klemp look younger.

      The question ECKists should be asking is,
      Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
      are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
      followers all want to "imagine" that they look
      "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
      Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
      rather than having an Astral Plane image!

      I think it's funny that Klemp names
      this new portrait "True Friend." Would
      a "true friend" say such nasty and mean
      things to you? These RESAs and other
      H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
      Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
      now they see that there are strings
      attached and that it's a one-way friend-
      ship.

      BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
      you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
      himself, or give it to you... free of
      charge? Hmmmmmm.

      On another note, I saw how Klemp can
      make even more money from his image.
      HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
      as though he has a big hole running
      through his head. So, maybe HK could
      have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
      The chain would go through his ears!
      He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
      $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK
      will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
      he does with portraits, books, etc.

      Prometheus
    • etznab@aol.com
      I would like to know the difference between Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe, the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something about the inner form of
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 23, 2009
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        I would like to know the difference between
        Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
        the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
        about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

        The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
        a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
        Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

        This is something I've been contemplating
        for some time: What is different with the two
        types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
        about this subject).

        There's another thing on this subject, and it
        has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
        I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
        body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
        Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
        any of the other lower world bodies where there
        are many different ones - including the physical
        body.

        So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
        Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
        only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
        Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
        Something like another dimension.

        Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
        and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
        the Living Eck Master become so important?
        Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
        to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
        the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
        understanding is that the astral body is limited
        to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
        transc
        ends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
        to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

        Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
        it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
        the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
        Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
        already!

        ?????????????????????????????????????

        A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
        Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
        to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
        D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
        T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
        getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
        Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
        Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
        the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
        only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
        quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
        Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
        Fang account and the year 1957.

        ?????????????????????????????????????

        I wonder, were those two different books, the
        two different manuscripts, about the same basic
        experience?

        BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
        online version of The Path of the Masters? by
        Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
        entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
        Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
        Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
        on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
        Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Examp
        le:
        A Talk With Rami Nuri.

        I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
        books and read from the beginning, looking at
        how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
        the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
        this point in time. I'm discovering things that
        had escaped me up until now.

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 12:29 am
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
        "Body"








        Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

        is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

        chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

        or contemplate upon his Physical image via

        his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

        of an Astral image. How is this the same as

        meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

        Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

        with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

        than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

        Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

        (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

        of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

        teach and other "believers" experience!



        Prometheus





        Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



        Hello All,

        It was bad enough that HK sold

        his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

        portrait. No
        w he's selling the "True

        Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



        But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

        portrait accurately? No, not quite!

        The truth has (once again) been

        embellished and distorted! Klemp,

        no doubt, likes this rendition because

        it makes him appear younger. Thus,

        this drawing looks more "sketch"

        like than portrait like!



        What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

        a more modern, shaved look, and

        does not appear as thin as it really

        is (the inside portion of his ear is

        different too).



        When looking at the front cover photo,

        of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

        World of ECKankar" we can see that

        Klemp parts his hair on the side and

        does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

        makes Klemp look younger.



        The question ECKists should be asking is,

        Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

        are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

        followers all want to "imagine" that they look

        "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

        Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

        rather than having an Astral Plane image!



        I think it's funny that Klemp names

        this new portrait "True Friend." Would

        a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

        things to you? These RESAs and other

        H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

        Letter see Klemp as a True Friend
        , but

        now they see that there are strings

        attached and that it's a one-way friend-

        ship.



        BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

        you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

        himself, or give it to you... free of

        charge? Hmmmmmm.



        On another note, I saw how Klemp can

        make even more money from his image.

        HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

        as though he has a big hole running

        through his head. So, maybe HK could

        have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

        The chain would go through his ears!

        He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

        $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

        will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

        he does with portraits, books, etc.



        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Etznab, You make some good points and have brought up more information to point out Twitchell s and, now, Klemp s scam. I ll have to look at my copy of
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 24, 2009
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          Hello Etznab,
          You make some good points and have
          brought up more information to point
          out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
          I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
          and D.W.T.M. later.

          It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
          Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
          Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
          Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
          their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
          "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
          overlook this point. And, look at how
          many years Klemp has instructed EKists
          to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
          singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
          is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
          Chakra is still being used after 28 years
          under Klemp's rule(s)!

          BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
          actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
          is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
          Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
          become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
          or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
          being that same Over-Soul which, then,
          becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
          by-pass the hierarchy and can become
          "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
          on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
          you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

          Prometheus
          p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
          LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
          where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
          resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
          Plane!

          Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
          thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
          Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
          with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
          Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
          [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]


          Etznab wrote:
          I would like to know the difference between
          Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
          the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
          about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

          The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
          a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
          Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

          This is something I've been contemplating
          for some time: What is different with the two
          types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
          about this subject).

          There's another thing on this subject, and it
          has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
          I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
          body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
          Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
          any of the other lower world bodies where there
          are many different ones - including the physical
          body.

          So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
          Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
          only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
          Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
          Something like another dimension.

          Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
          and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
          the Living Eck Master become so important?
          Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
          to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
          the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
          understanding is that the astral body is limited
          to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
          transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
          to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

          Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
          it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
          the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
          Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
          already!

          ?????????????????????????????????????

          A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
          Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
          to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
          D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
          T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
          getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
          Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
          Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
          the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
          only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
          quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
          Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
          Fang account and the year 1957.

          ?????????????????????????????????????

          I wonder, were those two different books, the
          two different manuscripts, about the same basic
          experience?

          BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
          online version of The Path of the Masters? by
          Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
          entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
          Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
          Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
          on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
          Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
          A Talk With Rami Nuri.

          I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
          books and read from the beginning, looking at
          how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
          the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
          this point in time. I'm discovering things that
          had escaped me up until now.

          Etznab



          HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"


          Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

          is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

          chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

          or contemplate upon his Physical image via

          his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

          of an Astral image. How is this the same as

          meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

          Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

          with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

          than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

          Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

          (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

          of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

          teach and other "believers" experience!



          Prometheus





          Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



          Hello All,

          It was bad enough that HK sold

          his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

          portrait. Now he's selling the "True

          Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



          But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

          portrait accurately? No, not quite!

          The truth has (once again) been

          embellished and distorted! Klemp,

          no doubt, likes this rendition because

          it makes him appear younger. Thus,

          this drawing looks more "sketch"

          like than portrait like!



          What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

          a more modern, shaved look, and

          does not appear as thin as it really

          is (the inside portion of his ear is

          different too).



          When looking at the front cover photo,

          of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

          World of ECKankar" we can see that

          Klemp parts his hair on the side and

          does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

          makes Klemp look younger.



          The question ECKists should be asking is,

          Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

          are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

          followers all want to "imagine" that they look

          "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

          Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

          rather than having an Astral Plane image!



          I think it's funny that Klemp names

          this new portrait "True Friend." Would

          a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

          things to you? These RESAs and other

          H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

          Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

          now they see that there are strings

          attached and that it's a one-way friend-

          ship.



          BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

          you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

          himself, or give it to you... free of

          charge? Hmmmmmm.



          On another note, I saw how Klemp can

          make even more money from his image.

          HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

          as though he has a big hole running

          through his head. So, maybe HK could

          have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

          The chain would go through his ears!

          He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

          $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

          will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

          he does with portraits, books, etc.



          Prometheus
        • etznab@aol.com
          Have you ever read about, Over-Soul Seven? Prometheus, No. I haven t. The reference to number seven interests me. Since seven heavens , or seven spheres
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 24, 2009
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            Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

            Prometheus,

            No. I haven't.

            The reference to number seven interests me.
            Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
            mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
            Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
            me the impression of eight basic planes, where
            the eighth (and highest) was considered above
            them all. Like, something on another level, so
            to speak. Examples:

            p. 156

            "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
            of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
            of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
            all!"

            [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
            during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
            not sure. That quote is on the second page
            of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
            Question: Why does he mention seven?]

            For some reason, I'm under the impression
            that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
            a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
            8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
            the same book.

            p. 195

            "When I want to show the world my highest
            grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
            This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
            sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
            is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
            final for he represents my power in the seven
            lower worlds."

            [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
            I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

            Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
            my earlier post. The being supposed to have
            spoken those words was either Anami, or the
            SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
            have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
            story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
            Consider the last seven words in that quote:

            ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

            I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
            Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
            (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
            (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
            Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
            I suspect the earlier models had around eight
            planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
            book would mention this many and then the
            1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
            a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
            haste, and will have to go back & check the
            names of the planes for accuracy.)

            In the next chapter following that one (THE
            SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
            go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
            of the chapter:

            p. 197

            Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
            you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
            into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
            of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
            you will then know for yourself. [....]

            p. 199

            "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
            speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
            among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
            serve to take the message of the divine to all my
            creations throughout the seven spheres."

            Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
            by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
            once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
            other time mentions seven spheres.

            It was the context from those chapters that gave me
            the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
            etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
            place "above" them and making a total of eight.

            I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
            Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
            be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
            during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
            a total of only seven planets.

            As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
            starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
            notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
            when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
            and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
            1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
            take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
            the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
            (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
            materials. Like, how much of it was material that
            was already known to history? How much was in
            the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
            How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
            How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
            how much of the material had actually come direct
            from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
            (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

            This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
            so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
            history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
            other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

            Etznab



            -----Original Message-----
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
            "Body"








            Hello Etznab,

            You make some good points and have

            brought up more information to point

            out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

            I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

            and D.W.T.M. later.



            It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

            Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

            Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

            Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

            their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

            "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

            overlook this point. And, look at how

            many years Klemp has instructed EKists

            to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

            singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

            is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
            D

            Chakra is still being used after 28 years

            under Klemp's rule(s)!



            BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

            actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

            is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

            Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

            become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

            or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

            being that same Over-Soul which, then,

            becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

            by-pass the hierarchy and can become

            "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

            on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

            you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



            Prometheus

            p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

            LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

            where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

            resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

            Plane!



            Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

            thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

            Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

            with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

            Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

            [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



            Etznab wrote:

            I would like to know the difference between

            Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

            the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

            about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.



            The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

            a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
            D

            Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



            This is something I've been contemplating

            for some time: What is different with the two

            types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

            about this subject).



            There's another thing on this subject, and it

            has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

            I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

            body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

            Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

            any of the other lower world bodies where there

            are many different ones - including the physical

            body.



            So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

            Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

            only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

            Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

            Something like another dimension.



            Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

            and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

            the Living Eck Master become so important?

            Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

            to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

            the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

            understanding is that the astral body is limited

            to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

            transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

            to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



            Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

            it reads like that was his first vis
            it. However, in

            the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

            Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

            already!



            ?????????????????????????????????????



            A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

            Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

            to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

            D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

            T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

            getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

            Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

            Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

            the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

            only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

            quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

            Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

            Fang account and the year 1957.



            ?????????????????????????????????????



            I wonder, were those two different books, the

            two different manuscripts, about the same basic

            experience?



            BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

            online version of The Path of the Masters? by

            Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

            entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

            Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

            Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

            on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

            Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

            A Talk With Rami Nuri.



            I've
            decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

            books and read from the beginning, looking at

            how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

            the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

            this point in time. I'm discovering things that

            had escaped me up until now.



            Etznab



            HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



            Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



            is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



            chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



            or contemplate upon his Physical image via



            his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



            of an Astral image. How is this the same as



            meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



            Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



            with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



            than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



            Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



            (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



            of the Lower Planes just as all other religions



            teach and other "believers" experience!



            Prometheus



            Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



            Hello All,



            It was bad enough that HK sold



            his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



            portrait. Now he's selling the "True



            Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
            0D


            But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the



            portrait accurately? No, not quite!



            The truth has (once again) been



            embellished and distorted! Klemp,



            no doubt, likes this rendition because



            it makes him appear younger. Thus,



            this drawing looks more "sketch"



            like than portrait like!



            What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



            a more modern, shaved look, and



            does not appear as thin as it really



            is (the inside portion of his ear is



            different too).



            When looking at the front cover photo,



            of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



            World of ECKankar" we can see that



            Klemp parts his hair on the side and



            does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



            makes Klemp look younger.



            The question ECKists should be asking is,



            Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



            are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



            followers all want to "imagine" that they look



            "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



            Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



            rather than having an Astral Plane image!



            I think it's funny that Klemp names



            this new portrait "True Friend." Would



            a "true friend" say such nasty
            and mean



            things to you? These RESAs and other



            H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



            Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



            now they see that there are strings



            attached and that it's a one-way friend-



            ship.



            BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



            you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



            himself, or give it to you... free of



            charge? Hmmmmmm.



            On another note, I saw how Klemp can



            make even more money from his image.



            HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



            as though he has a big hole running



            through his head. So, maybe HK could



            have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



            The chain would go through his ears!



            He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



            $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK



            will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



            he does with portraits, books, etc.



            Prometheus
          • Jason Mc Dermott
            Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
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              Dear Etznab

              I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                         The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                          Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
              The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

              Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they're quite good.

              Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
              As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

               Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

              I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

              Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

              I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

              Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
              http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html

              hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

              Jay




              From: "etznab@..." <etznab@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

              Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

              Prometheus,

              No. I haven't.

              The reference to number seven interests me.
              Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
              mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
              Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
              me the impression of eight basic planes, where
              the eighth (and highest) was considered above
              them all. Like, something on another level, so
              to speak. Examples:

              p. 156

              "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
              of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
              of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
              all!"

              [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
              during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
              not sure. That quote is on the second page
              of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
              Question: Why does he mention seven?]

              For some reason, I'm under the impression
              that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
              a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
              8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
              the same book.

              p. 195

              "When I want to show the world my highest
              grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
              This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
              sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
              is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
              final for he represents my power in the seven
              lower worlds."

              [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
              I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

              Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
              my earlier post. The being supposed to have
              spoken those words was either Anami, or the
              SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
              have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
              story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
              Consider the last seven words in that quote:

              ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

              I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
              Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
              (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
              (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
              Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
              I suspect the earlier models had around eight
              planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
              book would mention this many and then the
              1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
              a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
              haste, and will have to go back & check the
              names of the planes for accuracy.)

              In the next chapter following that one (THE
              SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
              go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
              of the chapter:

              p. 197

              Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
              you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
              into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
              of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
              you will then know for yourself. [....]

              p. 199

              "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
              speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
              among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
              serve to take the message of the divine to all my
              creations throughout the seven spheres."

              Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
              by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
              once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
              other time mentions seven spheres.

              It was the context from those chapters that gave me
              the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
              etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
              place "above" them and making a total of eight.

              I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
              Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
              be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
              during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
              a total of only seven planets.

              As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
              starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
              notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
              when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
              and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
              1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
              take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
              the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
              (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
              materials. Like, how much of it was material that
              was already known to history? How much was in
              the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
              How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
              How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
              how much of the material had actually come direct
              from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
              (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

              This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
              so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
              history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
              other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
              Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
              "Body"

              Hello Etznab,

              You make some good points and have

              brought up more information to point

              out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

              I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

              and D.W.T.M. later.

              It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

              Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

              Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

              Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

              their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

              "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

              overlook this point. And, look at how

              many years Klemp has instructed EKists

              to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

              singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

              is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
              D

              Chakra is still being used after 28 years

              under Klemp's rule(s)!

              BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

              actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

              is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

              Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

              become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

              or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

              being that same Over-Soul which, then,

              becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

              by-pass the hierarchy and can become

              "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

              on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

              you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

              Prometheus

              p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

              LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

              where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

              resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

              Plane!

              Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

              thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

              Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

              with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

              Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

              [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

              Etznab wrote:

              I would like to know the difference between

              Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

              the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

              about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

              The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

              a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
              D

              Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

              This is something I've been contemplating

              for some time: What is different with the two

              types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

              about this subject).

              There's another thing on this subject, and it

              has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

              I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

              body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

              Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

              any of the other lower world bodies where there

              are many different ones - including the physical

              body.

              So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

              Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

              only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

              Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

              Something like another dimension.

              Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

              and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

              the Living Eck Master become so important?

              Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

              to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

              the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

              understanding is that the astral body is limited

              to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

              transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

              to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

              Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

              it reads like that was his first vis
              it. However, in

              the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

              Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

              already!

              ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

              A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

              Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

              to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

              D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

              T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

              getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

              Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

              Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

              the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

              only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

              quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

              Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

              Fang account and the year 1957.

              ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

              I wonder, were those two different books, the

              two different manuscripts, about the same basic

              experience?

              BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

              online version of The Path of the Masters? by

              Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

              entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

              Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

              Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

              on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

              Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

              A Talk With Rami Nuri.

              I've
              decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

              books and read from the beginning, looking at

              how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

              the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

              this point in time. I'm discovering things that

              had escaped me up until now.

              Etznab

              HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

              Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

              is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

              chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

              or contemplate upon his Physical image via

              his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

              of an Astral image. How is this the same as

              meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

              Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

              with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

              than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

              Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

              (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

              of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

              teach and other "believers" experience!

              Prometheus

              Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

              Hello All,

              It was bad enough that HK sold

              his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

              portrait. Now he's selling the "True

              Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
              0D

              But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

              portrait accurately? No, not quite!

              The truth has (once again) been

              embellished and distorted! Klemp,

              no doubt, likes this rendition because

              it makes him appear younger. Thus,

              this drawing looks more "sketch"

              like than portrait like!

              What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

              a more modern, shaved look, and

              does not appear as thin as it really

              is (the inside portion of his ear is

              different too).

              When looking at the front cover photo,

              of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

              World of ECKankar" we can see that

              Klemp parts his hair on the side and

              does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

              makes Klemp look younger.

              The question ECKists should be asking is,

              Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

              are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

              followers all want to "imagine" that they look

              "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

              Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

              rather than having an Astral Plane image!

              I think it's funny that Klemp names

              this new portrait "True Friend." Would

              a "true friend" say such nasty
              and mean

              things to you? These RESAs and other

              H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

              Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

              now they see that there are strings

              attached and that it's a one-way friend-

              ship.

              BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

              you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

              himself, or give it to you... free of

              charge? Hmmmmmm.

              On another note, I saw how Klemp can

              make even more money from his image.

              HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

              as though he has a big hole running

              through his head. So, maybe HK could

              have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

              The chain would go through his ears!

              He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

              $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

              will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

              he does with portraits, books, etc.

              Prometheus


              Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
            • etznab@aol.com
              [....] So one year after getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for) Dialogues With The Master. In it he
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
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                "[....] So one year after getting initiated by
                Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul Twitchell writes
                a book (the manuscript for) Dialogues With
                The Master. In it he travels all the way to the
                nameless plane. Anami. & not only once,
                but twice! Something doesn't seem quite
                right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                Realization is usually identified with The
                Tiger's Fang account and the year 1957."

                I think that needs a little clarification.

                In Dialogues With The Master Paul T.
                writes in the Introduction section:

                [....] He concluded his series of talks that
                year by taking me on the spiritual journey
                recorded in my book "The Tiger's Fang."

                Using the date for writing the Dialogues
                With The Master manuscript to be 1956,
                it would seem that the "spiritual journey"
                recorded in The Tiger's Fang book came
                in late 1956. Not 1957.

                Apparently, I was not the only person
                who mentioned 1957. Example:

                A natural question one might ask about the
                ECK Initiations is this: "If Paul Twitchell had
                God Realization in 1957, why did the ECK
                Master Shamus-i-Tabriz suggest that Paul
                was not omniscient?" Isn't a God-Realized
                person supposed to know all things?

                [....]

                Paul did have the experience of God Con-
                sciousness in 1957, but it took eight full
                years before he was ready for the mantle
                of the Mahanta in 1965. Even then he did
                not know all things, as the spiritually naive
                would like to think20he did.

                [....]

                [Based on: Soul Travelers Of The Far Country,
                by Harold Klemp, copyright 1987, pp. 140-141]

                Here is another example. One that gives both
                1956 and 1957.

                "In late 1956 or early 1957 Paul had the experience
                that is recorded in The Tiger's Fang. If he touched the
                face of God in 1956, some people may wonder why it
                took him until 1965 to become the Mahanta, the
                Living ECK Master. [....]"

                [Based on: Article (Touching the Face of God) @
                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail

                It's only a trivial point, I know, however I think it's
                important to establish the date for this event.

                BTW, there is a chapter in Dialogues With The
                Master entitled The Face of God. It is Paul's first
                trip to the "Anami Plane" that I mentioned in that
                earlier post (the second trip was in the chapter
                The Sugmad Speaks. It follows The Face of God
                chapter).

                Interesting what a little time & research can do.
                Now I think I see the reason for mentioning 1956
                and not 1957 for Paul Twitchell's God-Realization
                experience.

                All of this brings up a question, though. Did Paul
                write about that experience twice? Like in both the
                manuscripts? 1956: Dialogues With The Master &
                1957: The Tiger's Fang?

                The journey to "Sugmad" appears in The Tiger's
                Fang chapter entitled: The Spiritual Malignancy.
                In it, the being reportedly speaking to Paul gives
                four principles. In
                Dialogues With The Master the
                being reportedly speaking - in The Face of God
                chapter - gives three precepts.

                So which is the accurate record about Paul T.'s
                so-called God-Realization experience in which he
                reportedly meets the SUGMAD? Or, God?

                After just reading Dialogues With The Master
                another time, my guess would be that the first
                mention was in the Dialogues With The Master
                chapter entitled The Face of God.

                BTW, I found that one Eckankar quote more
                than a little curious.

                "In late 1956 or early 1957 Paul had the experience
                that is recorded in The Tiger's Fang. If he touched the
                face of God in 1956, some people may wonder why it
                took him until 1965 to become the Mahanta, the
                Living ECK Master. [....]"

                [Based on: Article (Touching the Face of God) @
                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail

                Well, apparently (I would add) the experience was
                also recorded in Dialogues With The Master.

                My references seem to suggest that D.W.T.M.
                manuscript was written before The Tiger's Fang.
                Perhaps there was one basic manuscript which
                recorded (wrote about) the experience and Paul
                (or Eckankar) later made it into two books.

                I'm planning to read The Tiger's Fang next, &
                compare it with Dialogues With The Master. It
                will take some time, but I'll get back with you
                and maybe we can discuss what actually took
                place.

                Etznab


                -----Original Message-----
                F
                rom: etznab@...
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 10:20 pm
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                "Body"


                I would like to know the difference between
                Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

                The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
                Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                This is something I've been contemplating
                for some time: What is different with the two
                types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                about this subject).

                There's another thing on this subject, and it
                has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                any of the other lower world bodies where there
                are many different ones - including the physical
                body.

                So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                Something like another dimension.

                Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                the Living Eck Master become so important?
                Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                to the Anami Lok wit
                h Rebazar Tarzs was that
                the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                understanding is that the astral body is limited
                to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                transc
                ends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
                the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                already!

                ?????????????????????????????????????

                A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                Fang account and the year 1957.

                ?????????????????????????????????????

                I wonder, were those two different books, the
                two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                experience?

                BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                Univ
                erse (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Examp
                le:
                A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                books and read from the beginning, looking at
                how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                had escaped me up until now.

                Etznab

                -----Original Message-----
                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 12:29 am
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                "Body"








                Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                teach and other "believers" experience!



                Prometheus






                Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



                Hello All,

                It was bad enough that HK sold

                his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                portrait. No
                w he's selling the "True

                Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



                But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                The truth has (once again) been

                embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                no doubt, likes this rendition because

                it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                this drawing looks more "sketch"

                like than portrait like!



                What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                a more modern, shaved look, and

                does not appear as thin as it really

                is (the inside portion of his ear is

                different too).



                When looking at the front cover photo,

                of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                World of ECKankar" we can see that

                Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                makes Klemp look younger.



                The question ECKists should be asking is,

                Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                rather than having an Astral Plane image!



                I think it's funny that Klemp names

                this new portrait "True Frien
                d." Would

                a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

                things to you? These RESAs and other

                H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                Letter see Klemp as a True Friend
                , but

                now they see that there are strings

                attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                ship.



                BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                himself, or give it to you... free of

                charge? Hmmmmmm.



                On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                make even more money from his image.

                HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                as though he has a big hole running

                through his head. So, maybe HK could

                have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                The chain would go through his ears!

                He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

                will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                he does with portraits, books, etc.



                Prometheus
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
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                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Jay,
                  Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
                  you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
                  been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
                  archives), and there are Links and Files,
                  also, that show and discuss many of these
                  subjects as well. However, the main focus
                  of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
                  this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
                  positioned himself to inherit it and how
                  he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
                  continue the lies, myth, and the belief
                  systems (fear and faith) that all religions
                  use. - P.

                  Jay wrote:
                  Dear Etznab
                  >
                  I my self am doing similar in studying back
                  over the shariyat's to see how much of these
                  two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
                  me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
                  But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
                  vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
                  at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
                  he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
                  Then of course there are the number of books
                  written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
                  on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
                  the story on this enigma of a man:
                  >
                  The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
                  of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                  >
                  P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
                  not actually contain "the whole truth"
                  and that much is just a rehash of his
                  previous opinions and speculations]
                  >
                  The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
                  >
                  P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
                  denounced Klemp and his own book about
                  his "Mahanta" experiences.]
                  >
                  Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                  >
                  P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
                  spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
                  who took his place]
                  >
                  The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
                  though the above books have helped move
                  on from some of his theories and material,
                  but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
                  He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
                  book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
                  just type his name in and you'll find it.
                  >
                  P: *[David started the ball rolling]
                  >
                  Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
                  to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
                  of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
                  he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
                  to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
                  on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
                  the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
                  set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
                  with others..they're quite good.
                  >
                  Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
                  of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
                  its on you tube the link is
                  >
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
                  >
                  As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
                  girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
                  apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
                  the website is
                  >
                  http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html
                  >
                  Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
                  of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
                  when kicked out of Eck.
                  >
                  P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
                  Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
                  >
                  Also as you may know there are a few other off
                  shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
                  actually can't remember him.. should have book
                  marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
                  he has his own line of past masters. Another
                  guy who will mail you intro material is Master
                  Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
                  >
                  I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
                  haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
                  I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
                  hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
                  far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
                  perspective of where I may be going next. What
                  really makes his insights for us all stand out are
                  two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
                  in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
                  master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
                  all the time his students said he was with them
                  on the inner planes and how they would praise
                  him for his place in their spiritual development,
                  he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
                  nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
                  students on the inner planes...I mean come on
                  how profound is this.
                  >
                  Though we are on the intellectual level only with
                  all this talk..it is basic and important though.
                  I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
                  I've practised the HU chant all this time and
                  studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
                  of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
                  i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
                  or ignored the possible science of the brain that
                  maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
                  to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd
                  initiate always told it was my choice, though
                  I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
                  be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
                  >
                  >
                  P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
                  under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
                  professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
                  you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
                  (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
                  do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
                  >
                  >
                  I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
                  and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
                  remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
                  >
                  Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
                  of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                  >
                  http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html
                  >
                  hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
                  >
                  Jay


                  >
                  > From: etznab
                  >
                  > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                  >
                  > Prometheus,
                  >
                  > No. I haven't.
                  >
                  > The reference to number seven interests me.
                  > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                  > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                  > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                  > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                  > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                  > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                  > to speak. Examples:
                  >
                  > p. 156
                  >
                  > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                  > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                  > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                  > all!"
                  >
                  > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                  > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                  > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                  > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                  > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                  >
                  > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                  > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                  > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                  > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                  > the same book.
                  >
                  > p. 195
                  >
                  > "When I want to show the world my highest
                  > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                  > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                  > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                  > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                  > final for he represents my power in the seven
                  > lower worlds."
                  >
                  > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                  > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                  >
                  > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                  > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                  > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                  > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                  > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                  > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                  > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                  >
                  > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                  >
                  > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                  > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                  > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                  > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                  > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                  > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                  > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                  > book would mention this many and then the
                  > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                  > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                  > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                  > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                  >
                  > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                  > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                  > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                  > of the chapter:
                  >
                  > p. 197
                  >
                  > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                  > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                  > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                  > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                  > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                  >
                  > p. 199
                  >
                  > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                  > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                  > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                  > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                  > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                  >
                  > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                  > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                  > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                  > other time mentions seven spheres.
                  >
                  > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                  > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                  > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                  > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                  >
                  > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                  > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                  > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                  > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                  > a total of only seven planets.
                  >
                  > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                  > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                  > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                  > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                  > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                  > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                  > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                  > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                  > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                  > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                  > was already known to history? How much was in
                  > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                  > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                  > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                  > how much of the material had actually come direct
                  > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                  > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                  >
                  > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                  > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                  > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                  > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello Etznab,
                  >
                  > You make some good points and have
                  >
                  > brought up more information to point
                  >
                  > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                  >
                  > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                  >
                  > and D.W.T.M. later.
                  >
                  >
                  > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                  >
                  > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                  >
                  > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                  >
                  > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                  >
                  > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                  >
                  > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                  >
                  > overlook this point. And, look at how
                  >
                  > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                  >
                  > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                  >
                  > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                  >
                  > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
                  >
                  > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                  >
                  > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                  >
                  >
                  > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                  >
                  > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                  >
                  > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                  >
                  > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                  >
                  > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                  >
                  > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                  >
                  > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                  >
                  > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                  >
                  > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                  >
                  > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                  >
                  > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                  >
                  > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                  >
                  > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                  >
                  > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                  >
                  > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                  >
                  > Plane!
                  >
                  > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                  >
                  > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                  >
                  > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                  >
                  > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                  >
                  > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                  >
                  > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                  >
                • Jason Mc Dermott
                  Hi Prometheus Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y know somewhere to
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
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                    Hi Prometheus

                    Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y'know somewhere to start..interesting line of inquiry though. Also thanks for the detail on becoming a 5th initiate I never really looked into it though. The sites great with all the files you've put up..great help.

                    Thanks again

                    Jay




                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 5:02:45
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

                    Hello Jay,
                    Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
                    you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
                    been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
                    archives), and there are Links and Files,
                    also, that show and discuss many of these
                    subjects as well. However, the main focus
                    of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
                    this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
                    positioned himself to inherit it and how
                    he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
                    continue the lies, myth, and the belief
                    systems (fear and faith) that all religions
                    use. - P.

                    Jay wrote:
                    Dear Etznab

                    >
                    I my self am doing similar in studying back
                    over the shariyat's to see how much of these
                    two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
                    me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
                    But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
                    vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
                    at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
                    he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
                    Then of course there are the number of books
                    written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
                    on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
                    the story on this enigma of a man:
                    >
                    The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
                    of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                    >
                    P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
                    not actually contain "the whole truth"
                    and that much is just a rehash of his
                    previous opinions and speculations]
                    >
                    The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
                    >
                    P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
                    denounced Klemp and his own book about
                    his "Mahanta" experiences. ]
                    >
                    Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                    >
                    P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
                    spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
                    who took his place]
                    >
                    The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
                    though the above books have helped move
                    on from some of his theories and material,
                    but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
                    He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
                    book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
                    just type his name in and you'll find it.
                    >
                    P: *[David started the ball rolling]
                    >
                    Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
                    to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
                    of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
                    he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
                    to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
                    on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
                    the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
                    set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
                    with others..they' re quite good.
                    >
                    Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
                    of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
                    its on you tube the link is
                    >
                    http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego& feature=related
                    >
                    As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
                    girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
                    apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
                    the website is
                    >
                    http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html
                    >
                    Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
                    of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
                    when kicked out of Eck.
                    >
                    P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
                    Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
                    >
                    Also as you may know there are a few other off
                    shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
                    actually can't remember him.. should have book
                    marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
                    he has his own line of past masters. Another
                    guy who will mail you intro material is Master
                    Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
                    >
                    I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
                    haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
                    I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
                    hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
                    far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
                    perspective of where I may be going next. What
                    really makes his insights for us all stand out are
                    two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
                    in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
                    master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
                    all the time his students said he was with them
                    on the inner planes and how they would praise
                    him for his place in their spiritual development,
                    he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
                    nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
                    students on the inner planes...I mean come on
                    how profound is this.
                    >
                    Though we are on the intellectual level only with
                    all this talk..it is basic and important though.
                    I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
                    I've practised the HU chant all this time and
                    studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
                    of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
                    i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
                    or ignored the possible science of the brain that
                    maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
                    to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd
                    initiate always told it was my choice, though
                    I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
                    be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
                    >
                    >
                    P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
                    under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
                    professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
                    you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
                    (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
                    do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
                    >
                    >
                    I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
                    and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
                    remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
                    >
                    Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
                    of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                    >
                    http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html
                    >
                    hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
                    >
                    Jay


                    >
                    > From: etznab
                    >
                    > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                    >
                    > Prometheus,
                    >
                    > No. I haven't.
                    >
                    > The reference to number seven interests me.
                    > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                    > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                    > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                    > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                    > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                    > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                    > to speak. Examples:
                    >
                    > p. 156
                    >
                    > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                    > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                    > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                    > all!"
                    >
                    > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                    > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                    > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                    > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                    > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                    >
                    > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                    > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                    > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                    > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                    > the same book.
                    >
                    > p. 195
                    >
                    > "When I want to show the world my highest
                    > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                    > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                    > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                    > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                    > final for he represents my power in the seven
                    > lower worlds."
                    >
                    > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                    > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                    >
                    > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                    > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                    > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                    > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                    > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                    > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                    > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                    >
                    > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                    >
                    > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                    > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                    > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                    > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                    > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                    > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                    > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                    > book would mention this many and then the
                    > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                    > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                    > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                    > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                    >
                    > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                    > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                    > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                    > of the chapter:
                    >
                    > p. 197
                    >
                    > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                    > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                    > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                    > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                    > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                    >
                    > p. 199
                    >
                    > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                    > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                    > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                    > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                    > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                    >
                    > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                    > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                    > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                    > other time mentions seven spheres.
                    >
                    > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                    > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                    > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                    > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                    >
                    > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                    > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                    > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                    > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                    > a total of only seven planets.
                    >
                    > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                    > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                    > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                    > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                    > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                    > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                    > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                    > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                    > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                    > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                    > was already known to history? How much was in
                    > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                    > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                    > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                    > how much of the material had actually come direct
                    > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                    > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                    >
                    > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                    > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                    > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                    > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                    >
                    > Etznab
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello Etznab,
                    >
                    > You make some good points and have
                    >
                    > brought up more information to point
                    >
                    > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                    >
                    > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                    >
                    > and D.W.T.M. later.
                    >
                    >
                    > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                    >
                    > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                    >
                    > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                    >
                    > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                    >
                    > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                    >
                    > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                    >
                    > overlook this point. And, look at how
                    >
                    > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                    >
                    > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                    >
                    > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                    >
                    > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
                    >
                    > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                    >
                    > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                    >
                    >
                    > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                    >
                    > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                    >
                    > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                    >
                    > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                    >
                    > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                    >
                    > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                    >
                    > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                    >
                    > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                    >
                    > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                    >
                    > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                    >
                    > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                    >
                    > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                    >
                    > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                    >
                    > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                    >
                    > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                    >
                    > Plane!
                    >
                    > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                    >
                    > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                    >
                    > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                    >
                    > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                    >
                    > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                    >
                    > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                    >


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                  • Jason Mc Dermott
                    Dear Etznab Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I ve just come
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
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                      Dear Etznab

                       Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson features it as part of his hypothesis as us having multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher Consciousness Society website. You'll find them by clicking on the classes button and then the audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to them in order as not to get confused of what's being discussed and explained by Johnson,the particular section of Over soul seven and Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                      g'luk

                      Jay


                      From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 15:03:04
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                      Dear Etznab

                      I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                                 The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                                  Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                      The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

                      Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they' re quite good.

                      Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
                      As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

                       Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

                      I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

                      Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

                      I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

                      Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                      http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html

                      hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

                      Jay




                      From: "etznab@aol. com" <etznab@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                      Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                      Prometheus,

                      No. I haven't.

                      The reference to number seven interests me.
                      Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                      mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                      Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                      me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                      the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                      them all. Like, something on another level, so
                      to speak. Examples:

                      p. 156

                      "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                      of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                      of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                      all!"

                      [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                      during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                      not sure. That quote is on the second page
                      of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                      Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                      For some reason, I'm under the impression
                      that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                      a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                      8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                      the same book.

                      p. 195

                      "When I want to show the world my highest
                      grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                      This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                      sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                      is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                      final for he represents my power in the seven
                      lower worlds."

                      [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                      I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                      Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                      my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                      spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                      SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                      have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                      story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                      Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                      ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                      I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                      Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                      (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                      (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                      Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                      I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                      planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                      book would mention this many and then the
                      1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                      a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                      haste, and will have to go back & check the
                      names of the planes for accuracy.)

                      In the next chapter following that one (THE
                      SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                      go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                      of the chapter:

                      p. 197

                      Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                      you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                      into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                      of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                      you will then know for yourself. [....]

                      p. 199

                      "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                      speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                      among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                      serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                      creations throughout the seven spheres."

                      Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                      by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                      once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                      other time mentions seven spheres.

                      It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                      the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                      etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                      place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                      I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                      Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                      be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                      during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                      a total of only seven planets.

                      As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                      starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                      notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                      when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                      and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                      1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                      take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                      the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                      (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                      materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                      was already known to history? How much was in
                      the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                      How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                      How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                      how much of the material had actually come direct
                      from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                      (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                      This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                      so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                      history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                      other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                      Etznab

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                      Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                      "Body"

                      Hello Etznab,

                      You make some good points and have

                      brought up more information to point

                      out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                      I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                      and D.W.T.M. later.

                      It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                      Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                      Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                      Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                      their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                      "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                      overlook this point. And, look at how

                      many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                      to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                      singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                      is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                      D

                      Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                      under Klemp's rule(s)!

                      BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                      actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                      is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                      Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

                      become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                      or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                      being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                      becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                      by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                      "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                      on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                      you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                      Prometheus

                      p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                      LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                      where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                      resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                      Plane!

                      Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                      thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                      Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                      with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                      Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                      [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                      Etznab wrote:

                      I would like to know the difference between

                      Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                      the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                      about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

                      The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                      a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                      D

                      Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                      This is something I've been contemplating

                      for some time: What is different with the two

                      types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                      about this subject).

                      There's another thing on this subject, and it

                      has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                      I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                      body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                      Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                      any of the other lower world bodies where there

                      are many different ones - including the physical

                      body.

                      So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                      Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                      only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                      Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                      Something like another dimension.

                      Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                      and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                      the Living Eck Master become so important?

                      Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                      to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                      the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                      understanding is that the astral body is limited

                      to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                      transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                      to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                      Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                      it reads like that was his first vis
                      it. However, in

                      the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                      Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                      already!

                      ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                      A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                      Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                      to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                      D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                      T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                      getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                      Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                      Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                      the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

                      only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                      quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                      Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                      Fang account and the year 1957.

                      ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                      I wonder, were those two different books, the

                      two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                      experience?

                      BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                      online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                      Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                      entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                      Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                      Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                      on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                      Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                      A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                      I've
                      decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                      books and read from the beginning, looking at

                      how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                      the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                      this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                      had escaped me up until now.

                      Etznab

                      HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                      Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                      is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                      chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                      or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                      his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                      of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                      meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                      Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                      with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                      than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                      Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                      (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                      of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                      teach and other "believers" experience!

                      Prometheus

                      Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                      Hello All,

                      It was bad enough that HK sold

                      his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                      portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                      Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                      0D

                      But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                      portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                      The truth has (once again) been

                      embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                      no doubt, likes this rendition because

                      it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                      this drawing looks more "sketch"

                      like than portrait like!

                      What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                      a more modern, shaved look, and

                      does not appear as thin as it really

                      is (the inside portion of his ear is

                      different too).

                      When looking at the front cover photo,

                      of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                      World of ECKankar" we can see that

                      Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                      does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                      makes Klemp look younger.

                      The question ECKists should be asking is,

                      Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                      are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                      followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                      "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                      Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                      rather than having an Astral Plane image!

                      I think it's funny that Klemp names

                      this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                      a "true friend" say such nasty
                      and mean

                      things to you? These RESAs and other

                      H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                      Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                      now they see that there are strings

                      attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                      ship.

                      BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                      you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                      himself, or give it to you... free of

                      charge? Hmmmmmm.

                      On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                      make even more money from his image.

                      HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                      as though he has a big hole running

                      through his head. So, maybe HK could

                      have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                      The chain would go through his ears!

                      He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                      $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                      will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                      he does with portraits, books, etc.

                      Prometheus


                      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com

                      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Jay, Etznab, and All, Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it s fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that this is
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
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                        Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                        Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                        fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                        that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                        this is similar to beating a dead horse
                        when sorting out the truth from all the
                        crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                        distracted from the current, now, happenings
                        under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                        Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                        He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                        the hook via his distractions involving
                        Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                        avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                        PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                        the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                        in order to confuse the issue.

                        Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                        but became more and more insane over
                        time. And, look at those "creative" people
                        in business who have scammed thousands
                        of individuals out of their life savings! They
                        even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                        foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                        Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                        expected from a person who paid to be
                        included in "The International Who's Who
                        of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                        why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                        "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                        themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                        Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                        redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                        historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                        EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                        with their current views of society and how
                        it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                        are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                        Masters?

                        BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                        a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                        a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                        actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                        truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                        much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                        Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                        "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                        that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                        as well!

                        As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                        it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                        With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                        said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                        or any other EK Master!

                        FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                        This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                        "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                        the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                        the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                        about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                        to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                        looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                        happens because asking too many questions shows
                        spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                        in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                        comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                        answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                        the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                        This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                        works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                        or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                        within the Satsang Society.

                        Prometheus

                        Jay wrote:

                        Dear Etznab

                        Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                        its a fictional piece based on the well known
                        metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                        I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                        features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                        multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                        in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                        Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                        by clicking on the classes button and then the
                        audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                        them in order as not to get confused of what's
                        being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                        the particular section of Over soul seven and
                        Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                        g'luk

                        Jay

                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                        >
                        >

                        Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                        >
                        Etznab,
                        Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                        >
                        Prometheus,

                        Etznab wrote:
                        > No. I haven't.
                        >
                        > The reference to number seven interests me.
                        > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                        > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                        > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                        > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                        > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                        > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                        > to speak. Examples:
                        >
                        > p. 156
                        >
                        > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                        > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                        > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                        > all!"
                        >
                        > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                        > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                        > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                        > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                        > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                        >
                        > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                        > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                        > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                        > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                        > the same book.
                        >
                        > p. 195
                        >
                        > "When I want to show the world my highest
                        > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                        > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                        > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                        > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                        > final for he represents my power in the seven
                        > lower worlds."
                        >
                        > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                        > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                        >
                        > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                        > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                        > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                        > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                        > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                        > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                        > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                        >
                        > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                        >
                        > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                        > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                        > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                        > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                        > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                        > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                        > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                        > book would mention this many and then the
                        > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                        > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                        > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                        > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                        >
                        > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                        > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                        > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                        > of the chapter:
                        >
                        > p. 197
                        >
                        > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                        > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                        > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                        > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                        > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                        >
                        > p. 199
                        >
                        > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                        > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                        > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                        > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                        > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                        >
                        > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                        > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                        > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                        > other time mentions seven spheres.
                        >
                        > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                        > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                        > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                        > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                        >
                        > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                        > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                        > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                        > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                        > a total of only seven planets.
                        >
                        > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                        > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                        > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                        > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                        > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                        > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                        > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                        > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                        > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                        > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                        > was already known to history? How much was in
                        > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                        > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                        > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                        > how much of the material had actually come direct
                        > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                        > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                        >
                        > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                        > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                        > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                        > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                        > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                        > "Body"
                        >
                        > Hello Etznab,
                        >
                        > You make some good points and have
                        >
                        > brought up more information to point
                        >
                        > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                        >
                        > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                        >
                        > and D.W.T.M. later.
                        >
                        > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                        >
                        > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                        >
                        > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                        >
                        > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                        >
                        > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                        >
                        > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                        >
                        > overlook this point. And, look at how
                        >
                        > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                        >
                        > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                        >
                        > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                        >
                        > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                        > D
                        >
                        > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                        >
                        > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                        >
                        > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                        >
                        > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                        >
                        > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                        >
                        > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                        >
                        > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                        >
                        > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                        >
                        > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                        >
                        > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                        >
                        > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                        >
                        > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                        >
                        > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                        >
                        > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                        >
                        > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                        >
                        > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                        >
                        > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                        >
                        > Plane!
                        >
                        > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                        >
                        > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                        >
                        > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                        >
                        > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                        >
                        > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                        >
                        > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                        >
                        > Etznab wrote:
                        >
                        > I would like to know the difference between
                        >
                        > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                        >
                        > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                        >
                        > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                        >
                        > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                        >
                        > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                        > D
                        >
                        > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                        >
                        > This is something I've been contemplating
                        >
                        > for some time: What is different with the two
                        >
                        > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                        >
                        > about this subject).
                        >
                        > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                        >
                        > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                        >
                        > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                        >
                        > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                        >
                        > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                        >
                        > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                        >
                        > are many different ones - including the physical
                        >
                        > body.
                        >
                        > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                        >
                        > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                        >
                        > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                        >
                        > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                        >
                        > Something like another dimension.
                        >
                        > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                        >
                        > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                        >
                        > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                        >
                        > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                        >
                        > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                        >
                        > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                        >
                        > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                        >
                        > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                        >
                        > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                        >
                        > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                        >
                        > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                        >
                        > it reads like that was his first vis
                        > it. However, in
                        >
                        > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                        >
                        > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                        >
                        > already!
                        >
                        > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                        >
                        > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                        >
                        > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                        >
                        > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                        >
                        > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                        >
                        > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                        >
                        > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                        >
                        > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                        >
                        > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                        >
                        > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                        >
                        > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                        >
                        > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                        >
                        > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                        >
                        > Fang account and the year 1957.
                        >
                        > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                        >
                        > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                        >
                        > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                        >
                        > experience?
                        >
                        > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                        >
                        > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                        >
                        > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                        >
                        > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                        >
                        > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                        >
                        > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                        >
                        > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                        >
                        > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                        >
                        > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                        >
                        > I've
                        > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                        >
                        > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                        >
                        > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                        >
                        > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                        >
                        > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                        >
                        > had escaped me up until now.
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                        > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                        >
                        > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                        >
                        > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                        >
                        > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                        >
                        > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                        >
                        > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                        >
                        > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                        >
                        > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                        >
                        > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                        >
                        > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                        >
                        > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                        >
                        > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                        >
                        > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                        >
                        > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                        >
                        > teach and other "believers" experience!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        >
                        > It was bad enough that HK sold
                        >
                        > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                        >
                        > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                        >
                        > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                        > 0D
                        >
                        > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                        >
                        > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                        >
                        > The truth has (once again) been
                        >
                        > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                        >
                        > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                        >
                        > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                        >
                        > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                        >
                        > like than portrait like!
                        >
                        > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                        >
                        > a more modern, shaved look, and
                        >
                        > does not appear as thin as it really
                        >
                        > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                        >
                        > different too).
                        >
                        > When looking at the front cover photo,
                        >
                        > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                        >
                        > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                        >
                        > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                        >
                        > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                        >
                        > makes Klemp look younger.
                        >
                        > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                        >
                        > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                        >
                        > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                        >
                        > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                        >
                        > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                        >
                        > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                        >
                        > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                        >
                        > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                        >
                        > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                        >
                        > a "true friend" say such nasty
                        > and mean
                        >
                        > things to you? These RESAs and other
                        >
                        > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                        >
                        > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                        >
                        > now they see that there are strings
                        >
                        > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                        >
                        > ship.
                        >
                        > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                        >
                        > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                        >
                        > himself, or give it to you... free of
                        >
                        > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                        >
                        > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                        >
                        > make even more money from his image.
                        >
                        > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                        >
                        > as though he has a big hole running
                        >
                        > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                        >
                        > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                        >
                        > The chain would go through his ears!
                        >
                        > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                        >
                        > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                        >
                        > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                        >
                        > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                        >
                        >
                        > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                        >
                      • Jason Mc Dermott
                        Hi Prometheus Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT s or HK s stuff being that
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
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                          Hi Prometheus

                          Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.

                          Jay


                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                          Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                          Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                          fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                          that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                          this is similar to beating a dead horse
                          when sorting out the truth from all the
                          crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                          distracted from the current, now, happenings
                          under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                          Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                          He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                          the hook via his distractions involving
                          Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                          avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                          PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                          the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                          in order to confuse the issue.

                          Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                          but became more and more insane over
                          time. And, look at those "creative" people
                          in business who have scammed thousands
                          of individuals out of their life savings! They
                          even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                          foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                          Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                          expected from a person who paid to be
                          included in "The International Who's Who
                          of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                          why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                          "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                          themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                          Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                          redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                          historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                          EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                          with their current views of society and how
                          it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                          are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                          Masters?

                          BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                          a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                          a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                          actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                          truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                          much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                          Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                          "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                          that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                          as well!

                          As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                          it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                          With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                          said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                          or any other EK Master!

                          FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                          This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                          "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                          the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                          the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                          about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                          to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                          looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                          happens because asking too many questions shows
                          spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                          in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                          comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                          answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                          the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                          This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                          works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                          or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                          within the Satsang Society.

                          Prometheus

                          Jay wrote:

                          Dear Etznab

                          Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                          its a fictional piece based on the well known
                          metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                          I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                          features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                          multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                          in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                          Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                          by clicking on the classes button and then the
                          audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                          them in order as not to get confused of what's
                          being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                          the particular section of Over soul seven and
                          Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                          g'luk

                          Jay

                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>

                          >
                          >

                          Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                          >
                          Etznab,
                          Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                          >
                          Prometheus,

                          Etznab wrote:
                          > No. I haven't.
                          >
                          > The reference to number seven interests me.
                          > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                          > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                          > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                          > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                          > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                          > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                          > to speak. Examples:
                          >
                          > p. 156
                          >
                          > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                          > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                          > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                          > all!"
                          >
                          > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                          > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                          > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                          > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                          > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                          >
                          > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                          > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                          > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                          > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                          > the same book.
                          >
                          > p. 195
                          >
                          > "When I want to show the world my highest
                          > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                          > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                          > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                          > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                          > final for he represents my power in the seven
                          > lower worlds."
                          >
                          > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                          > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                          >
                          > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                          > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                          > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                          > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                          > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                          > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                          > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                          >
                          > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                          >
                          > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                          > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                          > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                          > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                          > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                          > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                          > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                          > book would mention this many and then the
                          > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                          > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                          > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                          > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                          >
                          > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                          > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                          > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                          > of the chapter:
                          >
                          > p. 197
                          >
                          > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                          > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                          > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                          > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                          > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                          >
                          > p. 199
                          >
                          > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                          > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                          > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                          > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                          > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                          >
                          > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                          > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                          > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                          > other time mentions seven spheres.
                          >
                          > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                          > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                          > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                          > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                          >
                          > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                          > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                          > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                          > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                          > a total of only seven planets.
                          >
                          > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                          > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                          > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                          > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                          > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                          > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                          > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                          > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                          > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                          > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                          > was already known to history? How much was in
                          > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                          > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                          > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                          > how much of the material had actually come direct
                          > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                          > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                          >
                          > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                          > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                          > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                          > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                          > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                          > "Body"
                          >
                          > Hello Etznab,
                          >
                          > You make some good points and have
                          >
                          > brought up more information to point
                          >
                          > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                          >
                          > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                          >
                          > and D.W.T.M. later.
                          >
                          > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                          >
                          > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                          >
                          > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                          >
                          > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                          >
                          > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                          >
                          > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                          >
                          > overlook this point. And, look at how
                          >
                          > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                          >
                          > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                          >
                          > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                          >
                          > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                          > D
                          >
                          > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                          >
                          > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                          >
                          > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                          >
                          > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                          >
                          > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                          >
                          > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                          >
                          > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                          >
                          > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                          >
                          > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                          >
                          > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                          >
                          > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                          >
                          > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                          >
                          > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                          >
                          > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                          >
                          > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                          >
                          > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                          >
                          > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                          >
                          > Plane!
                          >
                          > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                          >
                          > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                          >
                          > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                          >
                          > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                          >
                          > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                          >
                          > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                          >
                          > Etznab wrote:
                          >
                          > I would like to know the difference between
                          >
                          > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                          >
                          > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                          >
                          > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                          >
                          > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                          >
                          > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                          > D
                          >
                          > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                          >
                          > This is something I've been contemplating
                          >
                          > for some time: What is different with the two
                          >
                          > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                          >
                          > about this subject).
                          >
                          > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                          >
                          > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                          >
                          > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                          >
                          > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                          >
                          > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                          >
                          > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                          >
                          > are many different ones - including the physical
                          >
                          > body.
                          >
                          > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                          >
                          > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                          >
                          > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                          >
                          > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                          >
                          > Something like another dimension.
                          >
                          > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                          >
                          > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                          >
                          > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                          >
                          > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                          >
                          > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                          >
                          > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                          >
                          > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                          >
                          > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                          >
                          > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                          >
                          > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                          >
                          > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                          >
                          > it reads like that was his first vis
                          > it. However, in
                          >
                          > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                          >
                          > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                          >
                          > already!
                          >
                          > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                          >
                          > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                          >
                          > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                          >
                          > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                          >
                          > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                          >
                          > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                          >
                          > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                          >
                          > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                          >
                          > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                          >
                          > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                          >
                          > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                          >
                          > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                          >
                          > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                          >
                          > Fang account and the year 1957.
                          >
                          > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                          >
                          > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                          >
                          > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                          >
                          > experience?
                          >
                          > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                          >
                          > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                          >
                          > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                          >
                          > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                          >
                          > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                          >
                          > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                          >
                          > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                          >
                          > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                          >
                          > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                          >
                          > I've
                          > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                          >
                          > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                          >
                          > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                          >
                          > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                          >
                          > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                          >
                          > had escaped me up until now.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                          > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                          >
                          > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                          >
                          > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                          >
                          > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                          >
                          > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                          >
                          > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                          >
                          > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                          >
                          > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                          >
                          > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                          >
                          > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                          >
                          > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                          >
                          > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                          >
                          > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                          >
                          > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                          >
                          > teach and other "believers" experience!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          >
                          > It was bad enough that HK sold
                          >
                          > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                          >
                          > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                          >
                          > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                          > 0D
                          >
                          > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                          >
                          > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                          >
                          > The truth has (once again) been
                          >
                          > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                          >
                          > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                          >
                          > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                          >
                          > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                          >
                          > like than portrait like!
                          >
                          > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                          >
                          > a more modern, shaved look, and
                          >
                          > does not appear as thin as it really
                          >
                          > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                          >
                          > different too).
                          >
                          > When looking at the front cover photo,
                          >
                          > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                          >
                          > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                          >
                          > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                          >
                          > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                          >
                          > makes Klemp look younger.
                          >
                          > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                          >
                          > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                          >
                          > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                          >
                          > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                          >
                          > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                          >
                          > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                          >
                          > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                          >
                          > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                          >
                          > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                          >
                          > a "true friend" say such nasty
                          > and mean
                          >
                          > things to you? These RESAs and other
                          >
                          > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                          >
                          > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                          >
                          > now they see that there are strings
                          >
                          > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                          >
                          > ship.
                          >
                          > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                          >
                          > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                          >
                          > himself, or give it to you... free of
                          >
                          > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                          >
                          > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                          >
                          > make even more money from his image.
                          >
                          > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                          >
                          > as though he has a big hole running
                          >
                          > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                          >
                          > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                          >
                          > The chain would go through his ears!
                          >
                          > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                          >
                          > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                          >
                          > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                          >
                          > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                          >
                          >
                          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                          >


                          Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                        • noneckster
                          RESPONDING TO THE THREAD: I think it s worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
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                            RESPONDING TO THE THREAD:

                            I think it's worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very core. To reread eck books hoping to get some wisdom is foolish imo. It's like drinking Koolaide that tastes like a sugary drink, but may be tainted with poison. : ) Current eckists are just willfully ignorant. There really isn't much of an excuse for their behavior, at this point. If Iranians can communicate and find out information via the internet and cell phone, then access in other Democracies around the world is a click away. Those practicing eckist of today are simply CHOOSING to not know all the facts.

                            Before the internet I could understand how it was easier to get duped, conned. The past is the past, for sure, but to not know the past, of course, is to increase the likelihood of repeating it. The study of bad cultic and religious practices is a very important activity IMO.

                            Non eckster ; )

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Prometheus
                            >
                            > Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.
                            >
                            > Jay
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                            > Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                            > fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                            > that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                            > this is similar to beating a dead horse
                            > when sorting out the truth from all the
                            > crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                            > distracted from the current, now, happenings
                            > under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.
                            >
                            > Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                            > He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                            > the hook via his distractions involving
                            > Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                            > avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                            > PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                            > the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                            > in order to confuse the issue.
                            >
                            > Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                            > but became more and more insane over
                            > time. And, look at those "creative" people
                            > in business who have scammed thousands
                            > of individuals out of their life savings! They
                            > even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                            > foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                            > Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                            > expected from a person who paid to be
                            > included in "The International Who's Who
                            > of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                            > why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                            > "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                            > themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                            > Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                            > redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                            > historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                            > EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                            > with their current views of society and how
                            > it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                            > are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                            > Masters?
                            >
                            > BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                            > a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                            > a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                            > actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                            > truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                            > much closer to Fiction than to "truth."
                            >
                            > Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                            > "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                            > that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                            > as well!
                            >
                            > As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                            > it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                            > With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                            > said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                            > or any other EK Master!
                            >
                            > FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                            > This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                            > "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                            > the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                            > the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                            > about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                            > to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                            > looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                            > happens because asking too many questions shows
                            > spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                            > in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                            > comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                            > answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                            > the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                            > This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                            > works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                            > or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                            > within the Satsang Society.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > Jay wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Etznab
                            >
                            > Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                            > its a fictional piece based on the well known
                            > metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                            > I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                            > features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                            > multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                            > in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                            > Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                            > by clicking on the classes button and then the
                            > audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                            > them in order as not to get confused of what's
                            > being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                            > the particular section of Over soul seven and
                            > Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.
                            >
                            > g'luk
                            >
                            > Jay
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                            > > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                            > >
                            > Etznab,
                            > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                            > >
                            > Prometheus,
                            >
                            > Etznab wrote:
                            > > No. I haven't.
                            > >
                            > > The reference to number seven interests me.
                            > > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                            > > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                            > > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                            > > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                            > > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                            > > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                            > > to speak. Examples:
                            > >
                            > > p. 156
                            > >
                            > > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                            > > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                            > > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                            > > all!"
                            > >
                            > > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                            > > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                            > > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                            > > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                            > > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                            > >
                            > > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                            > > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                            > > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                            > > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                            > > the same book.
                            > >
                            > > p. 195
                            > >
                            > > "When I want to show the world my highest
                            > > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                            > > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                            > > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                            > > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                            > > final for he represents my power in the seven
                            > > lower worlds."
                            > >
                            > > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                            > > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                            > >
                            > > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                            > > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                            > > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                            > > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                            > > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                            > > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                            > > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                            > >
                            > > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                            > >
                            > > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                            > > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                            > > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                            > > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                            > > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                            > > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                            > > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                            > > book would mention this many and then the
                            > > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                            > > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                            > > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                            > > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                            > >
                            > > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                            > > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                            > > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                            > > of the chapter:
                            > >
                            > > p. 197
                            > >
                            > > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                            > > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                            > > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                            > > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                            > > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                            > >
                            > > p. 199
                            > >
                            > > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                            > > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                            > > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                            > > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                            > > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                            > >
                            > > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                            > > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                            > > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                            > > other time mentions seven spheres.
                            > >
                            > > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                            > > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                            > > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                            > > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                            > >
                            > > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                            > > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                            > > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                            > > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                            > > a total of only seven planets.
                            > >
                            > > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                            > > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                            > > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                            > > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                            > > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                            > > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                            > > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                            > > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                            > > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                            > > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                            > > was already known to history? How much was in
                            > > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                            > > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                            > > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                            > > how much of the material had actually come direct
                            > > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                            > > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                            > >
                            > > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                            > > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                            > > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                            > > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                            > >
                            > > Etznab
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                            > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                            > > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                            > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                            > > "Body"
                            > >
                            > > Hello Etznab,
                            > >
                            > > You make some good points and have
                            > >
                            > > brought up more information to point
                            > >
                            > > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                            > >
                            > > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                            > >
                            > > and D.W.T.M. later.
                            > >
                            > > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                            > >
                            > > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                            > >
                            > > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                            > >
                            > > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                            > >
                            > > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                            > >
                            > > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                            > >
                            > > overlook this point. And, look at how
                            > >
                            > > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                            > >
                            > > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                            > >
                            > > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                            > >
                            > > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                            > > D
                            > >
                            > > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                            > >
                            > > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                            > >
                            > > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                            > >
                            > > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                            > >
                            > > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                            > >
                            > > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                            > >
                            > > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                            > >
                            > > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                            > >
                            > > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                            > >
                            > > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                            > >
                            > > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                            > >
                            > > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                            > >
                            > > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                            > >
                            > > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                            > >
                            > > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                            > >
                            > > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                            > >
                            > > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                            > >
                            > > Plane!
                            > >
                            > > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                            > >
                            > > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                            > >
                            > > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                            > >
                            > > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                            > >
                            > > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                            > >
                            > > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                            > >
                            > > Etznab wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I would like to know the difference between
                            > >
                            > > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                            > >
                            > > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                            > >
                            > > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                            > >
                            > > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                            > >
                            > > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                            > > D
                            > >
                            > > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                            > >
                            > > This is something I've been contemplating
                            > >
                            > > for some time: What is different with the two
                            > >
                            > > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                            > >
                            > > about this subject).
                            > >
                            > > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                            > >
                            > > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                            > >
                            > > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                            > >
                            > > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                            > >
                            > > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                            > >
                            > > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                            > >
                            > > are many different ones - including the physical
                            > >
                            > > body.
                            > >
                            > > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                            > >
                            > > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                            > >
                            > > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                            > >
                            > > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                            > >
                            > > Something like another dimension.
                            > >
                            > > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                            > >
                            > > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                            > >
                            > > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                            > >
                            > > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                            > >
                            > > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                            > >
                            > > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                            > >
                            > > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                            > >
                            > > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                            > >
                            > > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                            > >
                            > > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                            > >
                            > > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                            > >
                            > > it reads like that was his first vis
                            > > it. However, in
                            > >
                            > > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                            > >
                            > > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                            > >
                            > > already!
                            > >
                            > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                            > >
                            > > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                            > >
                            > > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                            > >
                            > > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                            > >
                            > > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                            > >
                            > > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                            > >
                            > > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                            > >
                            > > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                            > >
                            > > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                            > >
                            > > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                            > >
                            > > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                            > >
                            > > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                            > >
                            > > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                            > >
                            > > Fang account and the year 1957.
                            > >
                            > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                            > >
                            > > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                            > >
                            > > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                            > >
                            > > experience?
                            > >
                            > > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                            > >
                            > > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                            > >
                            > > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                            > >
                            > > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                            > >
                            > > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                            > >
                            > > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                            > >
                            > > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                            > >
                            > > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                            > >
                            > > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                            > >
                            > > I've
                            > > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                            > >
                            > > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                            > >
                            > > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                            > >
                            > > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                            > >
                            > > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                            > >
                            > > had escaped me up until now.
                            > >
                            > > Etznab
                            > >
                            > > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                            > >
                            > > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                            > >
                            > > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                            > >
                            > > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                            > >
                            > > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                            > >
                            > > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                            > >
                            > > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                            > >
                            > > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                            > >
                            > > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                            > >
                            > > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                            > >
                            > > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                            > >
                            > > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                            > >
                            > > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                            > >
                            > > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                            > >
                            > > teach and other "believers" experience!
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                            > >
                            > > Hello All,
                            > >
                            > > It was bad enough that HK sold
                            > >
                            > > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                            > >
                            > > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                            > >
                            > > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                            > > 0D
                            > >
                            > > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                            > >
                            > > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                            > >
                            > > The truth has (once again) been
                            > >
                            > > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                            > >
                            > > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                            > >
                            > > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                            > >
                            > > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                            > >
                            > > like than portrait like!
                            > >
                            > > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                            > >
                            > > a more modern, shaved look, and
                            > >
                            > > does not appear as thin as it really
                            > >
                            > > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                            > >
                            > > different too).
                            > >
                            > > When looking at the front cover photo,
                            > >
                            > > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                            > >
                            > > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                            > >
                            > > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                            > >
                            > > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                            > >
                            > > makes Klemp look younger.
                            > >
                            > > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                            > >
                            > > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                            > >
                            > > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                            > >
                            > > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                            > >
                            > > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                            > >
                            > > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                            > >
                            > > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                            > >
                            > > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                            > >
                            > > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                            > >
                            > > a "true friend" say such nasty
                            > > and mean
                            > >
                            > > things to you? These RESAs and other
                            > >
                            > > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                            > >
                            > > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                            > >
                            > > now they see that there are strings
                            > >
                            > > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                            > >
                            > > ship.
                            > >
                            > > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                            > >
                            > > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                            > >
                            > > himself, or give it to you... free of
                            > >
                            > > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                            > >
                            > > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                            > >
                            > > make even more money from his image.
                            > >
                            > > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                            > >
                            > > as though he has a big hole running
                            > >
                            > > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                            > >
                            > > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                            > >
                            > > The chain would go through his ears!
                            > >
                            > > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                            > >
                            > > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                            > >
                            > > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                            > >
                            > > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Jay and All, Marman is connected to Klemp because he is an EKist (7th Initiate) and claims to be a long-time friend of HK s. Marman (Doug) is an
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
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                              Hello Jay and All,
                              Marman is connected to Klemp
                              because he is an EKist (7th Initiate)
                              and claims to be a long-time friend
                              of HK's. Marman (Doug) is an apologist
                              for both Klemp and PT, and has a
                              following from an EK fringe group.
                              Just read some of DM's older dialogue
                              and arguments, especially, with David
                              Lane. Steve Runfeldt (EK Internet PR
                              Guru) is another EK apologist who, also,
                              rates a D- when debating (online) with
                              David Lane.

                              BTW- I think that I first read Jane Roberts'
                              books in the early 1970's and once was
                              tempted to stop by for a short visit with
                              her and her husband in Binghamton (since
                              I was passing through at the time). But,
                              my passenger didn't want to stop. I got
                              the impression from reading her books
                              that writing, for Jane, was like a form of
                              therapy that helped to give her some sort
                              of balance, peace of mind, and meaning
                              for her life that helped it all to make sense.
                              From her descriptions, about herself, she
                              came across as having a lot of nervous
                              energy and smoking her cigarettes seemed
                              to calm her. 8th Initiate Millie (Workman)
                              Moore was much the same, but used the
                              spoken word versus the written word.

                              BTW-What do you think about Marman's
                              TS comments about Rebazar and the Holocaust
                              "probably" being myth?

                              Prometheus


                              Jay wrote:

                              Hi Prometheus

                              Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word
                              but how is Marman connected with HK?..and
                              yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                              being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over
                              7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence
                              of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth
                              stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab
                              had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking
                              back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past
                              is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the
                              present.

                              Jay

                              From: prometheus
                              Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                              Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                              Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                              fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                              that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                              this is similar to beating a dead horse
                              when sorting out the truth from all the
                              crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                              distracted from the current, now, happenings
                              under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                              Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                              He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                              the hook via his distractions involving
                              Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                              avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                              PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                              the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                              in order to confuse the issue.

                              Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                              but became more and more insane over
                              time. And, look at those "creative" people
                              in business who have scammed thousands
                              of individuals out of their life savings! They
                              even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                              foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                              Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                              expected from a person who paid to be
                              included in "The International Who's Who
                              of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                              why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                              "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                              themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                              Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                              redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                              historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                              EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                              with their current views of society and how
                              it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                              are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                              Masters?

                              BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                              a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                              a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                              actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                              truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                              much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                              Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                              "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                              that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                              as well!

                              As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                              it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                              With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                              said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                              or any other EK Master!

                              FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                              This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                              "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                              the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                              the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                              about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                              to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                              looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                              happens because asking too many questions shows
                              spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                              in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                              comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                              answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                              the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                              This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                              works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                              or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                              within the Satsang Society.

                              Prometheus

                              Jay wrote:

                              Dear Etznab

                              Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                              its a fictional piece based on the well known
                              metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                              I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                              features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                              multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                              in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                              Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                              by clicking on the classes button and then the
                              audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                              them in order as not to get confused of what's
                              being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                              the particular section of Over soul seven and
                              Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                              g'luk

                              Jay

                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ____________ _________ _________ __
                              > From: Jason

                              >
                              >

                              Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                              >
                              Etznab,
                              Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                              >
                              Prometheus,

                              Etznab wrote:
                              > No. I haven't.
                              >
                              > The reference to number seven interests me.
                              > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                              > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                              > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                              > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                              > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                              > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                              > to speak. Examples:
                              >
                              > p. 156
                              >
                              > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                              > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                              > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                              > all!"
                              >
                              > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                              > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                              > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                              > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                              > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                              >
                              > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                              > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                              > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                              > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                              > the same book.
                              >
                              > p. 195
                              >
                              > "When I want to show the world my highest
                              > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                              > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                              > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                              > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                              > final for he represents my power in the seven
                              > lower worlds."
                              >
                              > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                              > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                              >
                              > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                              > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                              > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                              > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                              > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                              > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                              > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                              >
                              > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                              >
                              > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                              > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                              > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                              > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                              > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                              > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                              > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                              > book would mention this many and then the
                              > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                              > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                              > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                              > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                              >
                              > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                              > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                              > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                              > of the chapter:
                              >
                              > p. 197
                              >
                              > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                              > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                              > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                              > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                              > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                              >
                              > p. 199
                              >
                              > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                              > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                              > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                              > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                              > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                              >
                              > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                              > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                              > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                              > other time mentions seven spheres.
                              >
                              > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                              > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                              > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                              > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                              >
                              > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                              > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                              > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                              > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                              > a total of only seven planets.
                              >
                              > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                              > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                              > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                              > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                              > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                              > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                              > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                              > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                              > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                              > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                              > was already known to history? How much was in
                              > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                              > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                              > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                              > how much of the material had actually come direct
                              > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                              > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                              >
                              > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                              > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                              > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                              > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                              >
                              > Etznab
                              >
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              I m not so sure the past is a dead horse . In fact, I would call it very much alive and is the basis for many people s present & future beliefs about numerous
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
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                                I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".
                                In fact, I would call it very much alive and is
                                the basis for many people's present & future
                                beliefs about numerous things.

                                Going back and clarifying the past is what
                                I am seeking to do, by isolating the context
                                of those many stories I have read and heard
                                told in Eckankar books and discussions.

                                This is something I've been wanting to do
                                for a long time. Establish the "context". For
                                example, What is the literal truth and what
                                is not?

                                Here is why I think this important. When I
                                can prove beyond a doubt that something is
                                fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that
                                regard. It's power over me would not be the
                                same, not have the same influence & power
                                over my belief system and psyche as some-
                                thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With
                                myth and fiction - knowing a source is that -
                                it leaves me with the liberty to explore further
                                and to learn how the story came about in the
                                first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the
                                people who take pseudo religion and history
                                to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.
                                I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &
                                infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my
                                conscience, living with the thought I am know-
                                ingly spreading fact for fiction.

                                BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.
                                I'm just now getting around to reading mail.

                                Etznab





                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm
                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                                Soul "Body"








                                Hi Prometheus

                                Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman
                                connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                                being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just
                                mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane
                                Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had
                                in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a
                                dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk
                                in the present.

                                Jay

                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                                "Body"













                                Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,

                                Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's

                                fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam

                                that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that

                                this is similar to beating a dead horse

                                when sorting out the truth from all the

                                crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be

                                distracted from the current, now, happenings

                                under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.


                                =0
                                A
                                Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.

                                He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off

                                the hook via his distractions involving

                                Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,

                                avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon

                                PT's "creative writing" by manipulating

                                the lies and myth that Twitchell created

                                in order to confuse the issue.



                                Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,

                                but became more and more insane over

                                time. And, look at those "creative" people

                                in business who have scammed thousands

                                of individuals out of their life savings! They

                                even scammed hospitals and non-profit

                                foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!

                                Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's

                                expected from a person who paid to be

                                included in "The International Who's Who

                                of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,

                                why do EKists need Klemp when they can

                                "create" their own reality/destiny and make

                                themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a

                                Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is

                                redundant and lives in the past by quoting

                                historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote

                                EK Masters, still living in a physical body,

                                with their current views of society and how

                                it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where

                                are these relevant "insights" from these EK

                                Masters?



                                BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote

                                a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes

                                a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,

                                actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real

                                truth about Marman's book is that it comes

                                much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                                Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that

                                "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and

                                that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"

                                as well!



                                As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"

                                it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues

                                With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever

                                said/written about his discussions with Rebazar

                                or any other EK Master!



                                FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!

                                This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the

                                "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as

                                the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as

                                the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned

                                about this "upper region," although, it is referred

                                to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-

                                looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This

                                happens because asking too many questions shows

                                spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and

                                in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"

                                comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for

                                answers. However, all "answers" must agree with

                                the same text that contain the conflicting info!

                                This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma

                                works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,

                                or they're Black Ball
                                ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"

                                within the Satsang Society.



                                Prometheus



                                Jay wrote:



                                Dear Etznab



                                Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,

                                its a fictional piece based on the well known

                                metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..

                                I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson

                                features it as part of his hypothesis as us having

                                multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,

                                in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher

                                Consciousness Society website. You'll find them

                                by clicking on the classes button and then the

                                audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to

                                them in order as not to get confused of what's

                                being discussed and explained by Johnson,

                                the particular section of Over soul seven and

                                Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                                g'luk



                                Jay



                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > ____________ _________ _________ __

                                > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                                >

                                >



                                Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                                >

                                Etznab,

                                Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                                >

                                Prometheus,



                                Etznab wrote:

                                > No. I haven't.

                                >

                                > The reference to number seven interests me.

                                > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are

                                > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v
                                ersion of

                                > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave

                                > me the impression of eight basic planes, where

                                > the eighth (and highest) was considered above

                                > them all. Like, something on another level, so

                                > to speak. Examples:

                                >

                                > p. 156

                                >

                                > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet

                                > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres

                                > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear

                                > all!"

                                >

                                > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,

                                > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm

                                > not sure. That quote is on the second page

                                > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.

                                > Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                                >

                                > For some reason, I'm under the impression

                                > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from

                                > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the

                                > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in

                                > the same book.

                                >

                                > p. 195

                                >

                                > "When I want to show the world my highest

                                > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.

                                > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the

                                > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will

                                > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree

                                > final for he represents my power in the seven

                                > lower worlds."

                                >

                                > [That was fro
                                m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.

                                > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                                >

                                > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in

                                > my earlier post. The being supposed to have

                                > spoken those words was either Anami, or the

                                > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could

                                > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that

                                > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.

                                > Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                                >

                                > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                                >

                                > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.

                                > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?

                                > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental

                                > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami

                                > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but

                                > I suspect the earlier models had around eight

                                > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's

                                > book would mention this many and then the

                                > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give

                                > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative

                                > haste, and will have to go back & check the

                                > names of the planes for accuracy.)

                                >

                                > In the next chapter following that one (THE

                                > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs

                                > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph

                                > of the chapter:

                                >

                                > p. 1
                                97

                                >

                                > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take

                                > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond

                                > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth

                                > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So

                                > you will then know for yourself. [....]

                                >

                                > p. 199

                                >

                                > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,

                                > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are

                                > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must

                                > serve to take the message of the divine to all my

                                > creations throughout the seven spheres."

                                >

                                > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And

                                > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,

                                > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-

                                > other time mentions seven spheres.

                                >

                                > It was the context from those chapters that gave me

                                > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",

                                > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a

                                > place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                                >

                                > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.

                                > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to

                                > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even

                                > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in

                                > a total of only seven planets.

                                >

                                > As I begin re
                                ading through the Eck books again -

                                > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious

                                > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,

                                > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing

                                > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's

                                > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to

                                > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand

                                > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was

                                > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                                > materials. Like, how much of it was material that

                                > was already known to history? How much was in

                                > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D

                                > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?

                                > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,

                                > how much of the material had actually come direct

                                > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens

                                > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                                >

                                > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and

                                > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,

                                > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with

                                > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                                >

                                > Etznab

                                >

                                > -----Original Message-----

                                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>

                                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                                > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20
                                09 1:41 pm

                                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.
                                the Soul

                                > "Body"

                                >

                                > Hello Etznab,

                                >

                                > You make some good points and have

                                >

                                > brought up more information to point

                                >

                                > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                                >

                                > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                                >

                                > and D.W.T.M. later.

                                >

                                > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                                >

                                > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                                >

                                > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                                >

                                > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                                >

                                > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                                >

                                > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                                >

                                > overlook this point. And, look at how

                                >

                                > many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                                >

                                > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                                >

                                > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                                >

                                > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0

                                > D

                                >

                                > Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                                >

                                > under Klemp's rule(s)!

                                >

                                > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                                >

                                > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                                >

                                > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                                >

                                > Over-Soul and that
                                these Souls need to

                                >

                                > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                                >

                                > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                                >

                                > being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                                >

                                > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                                >

                                > by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                                >

                                > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                                >

                                > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                                >

                                > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                                >

                                > Prometheus

                                >

                                > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                                >

                                > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                                >

                                > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                                >

                                > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                                >

                                > Plane!

                                >

                                > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                                >

                                > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                                >

                                > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                                >

                                > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                                >

                                > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                                >

                                > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                                >

                                > Etznab wrote:

                                >

                                > I would like to know the difference between

                                >

                                > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                                >

                                > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                                >

                                > about the inner=2
                                0form of the Living Eck Master.

                                >

                                > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                                >

                                > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0

                                > D

                                >

                                > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                                >

                                > This is something I've been contemplating

                                >

                                > for some time: What is different with the two

                                >

                                > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                                >

                                > about this subject).

                                >

                                > There's another thing on this subject, and it

                                >

                                > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                                >

                                > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                                >

                                > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                                >

                                > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                                >

                                > any of the other lower world bodies where there

                                >

                                > are many different ones - including the physical

                                >

                                > body.

                                >

                                > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                                >

                                > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                                >

                                > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                                >

                                > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                                >

                                > Something like another dimension.

                                >

                                > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                                >

                                > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                                >

                                > the L
                                iving Eck Master become so important?

                                >

                                > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                                >

                                > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                                >

                                > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                                >

                                > understanding is that the astral body is limited

                                >

                                > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                                >

                                > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                                >

                                > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                                >

                                > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                                >

                                > it reads like that was his first vis

                                > it. However, in

                                >

                                > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                                >

                                > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                                >

                                > already!

                                >

                                > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                                >

                                > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                                >

                                > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                                >

                                > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                                >

                                > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                                >

                                > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                                >

                                > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                                >

                                > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                                >

                                > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                                >

                                > the way to the nameless
                                plane. Anami. & not

                                >

                                > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                                >

                                > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                                >

                                > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                                >

                                > Fang account and the year 1957.

                                >

                                > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                                >

                                > I wonder, were those two different books, the

                                >

                                > two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                                >

                                > experience?

                                >

                                > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                                >

                                > online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                                >

                                > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                                >

                                > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                                >

                                > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                                >

                                > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                                >

                                > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                                >

                                > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                                >

                                > A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                                >

                                > I've

                                > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                                >

                                > books and read from the beginning, looking at

                                >

                                > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                                >

                                > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                                >

                                > this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                                >

                                > had20escaped me up until now.

                                >

                                > Etznab

                                >

                                > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                                >

                                > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                                >

                                > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                                >

                                > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                                >

                                > or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                                >

                                > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                                >

                                > of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                                >

                                > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                                >

                                > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                                >

                                > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                                >

                                > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                                >

                                > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                                >

                                > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                                >

                                > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                                >

                                > teach and other "believers" experience!

                                >

                                > Prometheus

                                >

                                > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                                >

                                > Hello All,

                                >

                                > It was bad enough that HK sold

                                >

                                > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                                >

                                > portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                                >

                                > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).

                                > 0D

                                >

                                > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                                =0
                                A
                                >

                                > portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                                >

                                > The truth has (once again) been

                                >

                                > embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                                >

                                > no doubt, likes this rendition because

                                >

                                > it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                                >

                                > this drawing looks more "sketch"

                                >

                                > like than portrait like!

                                >

                                > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                                >

                                > a more modern, shaved look, and

                                >

                                > does not appear as thin as it really

                                >

                                > is (the inside portion of his ear is

                                >

                                > different too).

                                >

                                > When looking at the front cover photo,

                                >

                                > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                                >

                                > World of ECKankar" we can see that

                                >

                                > Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                                >

                                > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                                >

                                > makes Klemp look younger.

                                >

                                > The question ECKists should be asking is,

                                >

                                > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                                >

                                > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                                >

                                > followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                                >

                                > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                                >

                                > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                                >

                                > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0
                                D

                                >

                                > I think it's funny that Klemp names

                                >

                                > this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                                >

                                > a "true friend" say such nasty

                                > and mean

                                >

                                > things to you? These RESAs and other

                                >

                                > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                                >

                                > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                                >

                                > now they see that there are strings

                                >

                                > attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                                >

                                > ship.

                                >

                                > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                                >

                                > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                                >

                                > himself, or give it to you... free of

                                >

                                > charge? Hmmmmmm.

                                >

                                > On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                                >

                                > make even more money from his image.

                                >

                                > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                                >

                                > as though he has a big hole running

                                >

                                > through his head. So, maybe HK could

                                >

                                > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                                >

                                > The chain would go through his ears!

                                >

                                > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                                >

                                > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                                >

                                > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                                >

                                > he does with portraits, books, etc.

                                >

                                > Prometheus

                                >

                                &
                                gt;

                                > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                                .yahoo.com

                                >

                                >

                                > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                                .yahoo.com

                                >











                                Send instant messages to your online friends
                                http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                              • etznab@aol.com
                                Typo correction. The following sentence I don t have to have guilt on my conscience, living with the thought I am knowingly spreading fact for fiction.
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
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                                  Typo correction. The following sentence

                                  "I don't have to have guilt on my conscience,
                                  living with the thought I am knowingly spreading
                                  fact for fiction."

                                  should read: fiction for fact, instead of fact
                                  for fiction.

                                  Etznab

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: etznab@...
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 6:47 pm
                                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                                  Soul "Body"










                                  I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".

                                  In fact, I would call it very much alive and is

                                  the basis for many people's present & future

                                  beliefs about numerous things.



                                  Going back and clarifying the past is what

                                  I am seeking to do, by isolating the context

                                  of those many stories I have read and heard

                                  told in Eckankar books and discussions.



                                  This is something I've been wanting to do

                                  for a long time. Establish the "context". For

                                  example, What is the literal truth and what

                                  is not?



                                  Here is why I think this important. When I

                                  can prove beyond a doubt that something is

                                  fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that

                                  regard. It's power over me would not be the

                                  same, not have the same influence & power

                                  over my belief system and psyche as some-

                                  thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With

                                  myth and fiction - knowing a source is that
                                  -

                                  it leaves me with the liberty to explore further

                                  and to learn how the story came about in the

                                  first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the

                                  people who take pseudo religion and history

                                  to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.

                                  I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &

                                  infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my

                                  conscience, living with the thought I am know-

                                  ingly spreading fact for fiction.



                                  BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.

                                  I'm just now getting around to reading mail.



                                  Etznab



                                  -----Original Message-----

                                  From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                                  Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm

                                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the

                                  Soul "Body"



                                  Hi Prometheus



                                  Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman

                                  connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff

                                  being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just

                                  mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane

                                  Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had

                                  in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a

                                  dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk

                                  in the present.



                                  Jay



                                  =0
                                  AFrom: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                                  Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08

                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul

                                  "Body"



                                  Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,



                                  Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's



                                  fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam



                                  that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that



                                  this is similar to beating a dead horse



                                  when sorting out the truth from all the



                                  crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be



                                  distracted from the current, now, happenings



                                  under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.



                                  =0

                                  A

                                  Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.



                                  He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off



                                  the hook via his distractions involving



                                  Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,



                                  avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon



                                  PT's "creative writing" by manipulating



                                  the lies and myth that Twitchell created



                                  in order to confuse the issue.



                                  Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,



                                  but became more and more insane over



                                  time. And, look at those "creative" people



                                  in business who have scammed thousands



                                  of individuals out of their life savings! They



                                  even scammed hospitals and non-profit



                                  foundations!
                                  Very "creative" weren't they!



                                  Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's



                                  expected from a person who paid to be



                                  included in "The International Who's Who



                                  of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,



                                  why do EKists need Klemp when they can



                                  "create" their own reality/destiny and make



                                  themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a



                                  Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is



                                  redundant and lives in the past by quoting



                                  historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote



                                  EK Masters, still living in a physical body,



                                  with their current views of society and how



                                  it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where



                                  are these relevant "insights" from these EK



                                  Masters?



                                  BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote



                                  a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes



                                  a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,



                                  actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real



                                  truth about Marman's book is that it comes



                                  much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                                  Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that



                                  "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and



                                  that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"



                                  as well!



                                  As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"



                                  it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues




                                  With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever



                                  said/written about his discussions with Rebazar



                                  or any other EK Master!



                                  FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!



                                  This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the



                                  "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as



                                  the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as



                                  the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned



                                  about this "upper region," although, it is referred



                                  to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-



                                  looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This



                                  happens because asking too many questions shows



                                  spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and



                                  in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"



                                  comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for



                                  answers. However, all "answers" must agree with



                                  the same text that contain the conflicting info!



                                  This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma



                                  works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,



                                  or they're Black Ball

                                  ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"



                                  within the Satsang Society.



                                  Prometheus



                                  Jay wrote:



                                  Dear Etznab



                                  Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,



                                  its a fictional piece based on the well20known



                                  metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..



                                  I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson



                                  features it as part of his hypothesis as us having



                                  multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,



                                  in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher



                                  Consciousness Society website. You'll find them



                                  by clicking on the classes button and then the



                                  audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to



                                  them in order as not to get confused of what's



                                  being discussed and explained by Johnson,



                                  the particular section of Over soul seven and



                                  Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                                  g'luk



                                  Jay



                                  >



                                  >



                                  >



                                  > ____________ _________ _________ __



                                  > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                                  >



                                  >



                                  Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                                  >



                                  Etznab,



                                  Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                                  >



                                  Prometheus,



                                  Etznab wrote:



                                  > No. I haven't.



                                  >



                                  > The reference to number seven interests me.



                                  > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are



                                  > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v

                                  ersion of=0
                                  D



                                  > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave



                                  > me the impression of eight basic planes, where



                                  > the eighth (and highest) was considered above



                                  > them all. Like, something on another level, so



                                  > to speak. Examples:



                                  >



                                  > p. 156



                                  >



                                  > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet



                                  > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres



                                  > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear



                                  > all!"



                                  >



                                  > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,



                                  > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm



                                  > not sure. That quote is on the second page



                                  > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.



                                  > Question: Why does he mention seven?]



                                  >



                                  > For some reason, I'm under the impression



                                  > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from



                                  > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the



                                  > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in



                                  > the same book.



                                  >



                                  > p. 195



                                  >



                                  > "When I want to show the world my highest



                                  > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.



                                  > This is my greatest gift and boon.=2
                                  0He is the



                                  > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will



                                  > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree



                                  > final for he represents my power in the seven



                                  > lower worlds."



                                  >



                                  > [That was fro

                                  m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.



                                  > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the



                                  >



                                  > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in



                                  > my earlier post. The being supposed to have



                                  > spoken those words was either Anami, or the



                                  > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could



                                  > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that



                                  > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.



                                  > Consider the last seven words in that quote:



                                  >



                                  > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."



                                  >



                                  > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.



                                  > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?



                                  > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental



                                  > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami



                                  > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but



                                  > I suspect the earlier models had around eight



                                  > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's



                                  > book=2
                                  0would mention this many and then the



                                  > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give



                                  > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative



                                  > haste, and will have to go back & check the



                                  > names of the planes for accuracy.)



                                  >



                                  > In the next chapter following that one (THE



                                  > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs



                                  > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph



                                  > of the chapter:



                                  >



                                  > p. 1

                                  97



                                  >



                                  > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take



                                  > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond



                                  > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth



                                  > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So



                                  > you will then know for yourself. [....]



                                  >



                                  > p. 199



                                  >



                                  > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,



                                  > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are



                                  > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must



                                  > serve to take the message of the divine to all my



                                  > creations throughout the seven spheres."



                                  >



                                  > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And



                                  > by non
                                  e other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,



                                  > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-



                                  > other time mentions seven spheres.



                                  >



                                  > It was the context from those chapters that gave me



                                  > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",



                                  > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a



                                  > place "above" them and making a total of eight.



                                  >



                                  > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.



                                  > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to



                                  > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even



                                  > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in



                                  > a total of only seven planets.



                                  >



                                  > As I begin re

                                  ading through the Eck books again -



                                  > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious



                                  > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,



                                  > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing



                                  > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's



                                  > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to



                                  > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand



                                  > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was



                                  > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                                  =0
                                  D

                                  > materials. Like, how much of it was material that



                                  > was already known to history? How much was in



                                  > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D



                                  > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?



                                  > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,



                                  > how much of the material had actually come direct



                                  > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens



                                  > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?



                                  >



                                  > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and



                                  > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,



                                  > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with



                                  > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.



                                  >



                                  > Etznab



                                  >



                                  > -----Original Message-----



                                  > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>



                                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com



                                  > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20

                                  09 1:41 pm



                                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.

                                  the Soul



                                  > "Body"



                                  >



                                  > Hello Etznab,



                                  >



                                  > You make some good points and have



                                  >



                                  > brought up more information to point



                                  =0
                                  A>



                                  > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.



                                  >



                                  > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"



                                  >



                                  > and D.W.T.M. later.



                                  >



                                  > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra



                                  >



                                  > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;



                                  >



                                  > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th



                                  >



                                  > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"



                                  >



                                  > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral



                                  >



                                  > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to



                                  >



                                  > overlook this point. And, look at how



                                  >



                                  > many years Klemp has instructed EKists



                                  >



                                  > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/



                                  >



                                  > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra



                                  >



                                  > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0



                                  > D



                                  >



                                  > Chakra is still being used after 28 years



                                  >



                                  > under Klemp's rule(s)!



                                  >



                                  > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is



                                  >



                                  > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There



                                  >



                                  > is a belief that Groups
                                  of Souls have an



                                  >



                                  > Over-Soul and that

                                  these Souls need to



                                  >



                                  > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)



                                  >



                                  > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/



                                  >



                                  > being that same Over-Soul which, then,



                                  >



                                  > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can



                                  >



                                  > by-pass the hierarchy and can become



                                  >



                                  > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,



                                  >



                                  > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have



                                  >



                                  > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                                  >



                                  > Prometheus



                                  >



                                  > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI



                                  >



                                  > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is



                                  >



                                  > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"



                                  >



                                  > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th



                                  >



                                  > Plane!



                                  >



                                  > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"



                                  >



                                  > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,



                                  >



                                  > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect



                                  >



                                  > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "
                                  advanced"



                                  >



                                  > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"



                                  >



                                  > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



                                  >



                                  > Etznab wrote:



                                  >



                                  > I would like to know the difference between



                                  >



                                  > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,



                                  >



                                  > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something



                                  >



                                  > about the inner=2

                                  0form of the Living Eck Master.



                                  >



                                  > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called



                                  >



                                  > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0



                                  > D



                                  >



                                  > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



                                  >



                                  > This is something I've been contemplating



                                  >



                                  > for some time: What is different with the two



                                  >



                                  > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me



                                  >



                                  > about this subject).



                                  >



                                  > There's another thing on this subject, and it



                                  >



                                  > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,



                                  >



                                  > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided



                                  >



                                  > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the




                                  >



                                  > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,



                                  >



                                  > any of the other lower world bodies where there



                                  >



                                  > are many different ones - including the physical



                                  >



                                  > body.



                                  >



                                  > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma



                                  >



                                  > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is



                                  >



                                  > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul



                                  >



                                  > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.



                                  >



                                  > Something like another dimension.



                                  >



                                  > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?



                                  >



                                  > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of



                                  >



                                  > the L

                                  iving Eck Master become so important?



                                  >



                                  > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled



                                  >



                                  > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that



                                  >



                                  > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My



                                  >



                                  > understanding is that the astral body is limited



                                  >



                                  > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup



                                  >



                                  > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one=2
                                  0would have



                                  >



                                  > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



                                  >



                                  > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book



                                  >



                                  > it reads like that was his first vis



                                  > it. However, in



                                  >



                                  > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The



                                  >



                                  > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice



                                  >



                                  > already!



                                  >



                                  > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                                  >



                                  > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the



                                  >



                                  > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.



                                  >



                                  > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the



                                  >



                                  > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and



                                  >



                                  > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after



                                  >



                                  > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul



                                  >



                                  > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)



                                  >



                                  > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all



                                  >



                                  > the way to the nameless

                                  plane. Anami. & not



                                  >



                                  > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem



                                  >



                                  &
                                  gt; quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-



                                  >



                                  > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's



                                  >



                                  > Fang account and the year 1957.



                                  >



                                  > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                                  >



                                  > I wonder, were those two different books, the



                                  >



                                  > two different manuscripts, about the same basic



                                  >



                                  > experience?



                                  >



                                  > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an



                                  >



                                  > online version of The Path of the Masters? by



                                  >



                                  > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter



                                  >



                                  > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the



                                  >



                                  > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The



                                  >



                                  > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257



                                  >



                                  > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami



                                  >



                                  > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:



                                  >



                                  > A Talk With Rami Nuri.



                                  >



                                  > I've



                                  > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early



                                  >



                                  > books and read from the beginning, looking at



                                  >


                                  0D
                                  > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over



                                  >



                                  > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at



                                  >



                                  > this point in time. I'm discovering things that



                                  >



                                  > had20escaped me up until now.



                                  >



                                  > Etznab



                                  >



                                  > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                                  >



                                  > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



                                  >



                                  > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



                                  >



                                  > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



                                  >



                                  > or contemplate upon his Physical image via



                                  >



                                  > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



                                  >



                                  > of an Astral image. How is this the same as



                                  >



                                  > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



                                  >



                                  > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



                                  >



                                  > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



                                  >



                                  > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



                                  >



                                  > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



                                  >



                                  > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



                                  >



                                  > of the Lower Planes=2
                                  0just as all other religions



                                  >



                                  > teach and other "believers" experience!



                                  >



                                  > Prometheus



                                  >



                                  > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



                                  >



                                  > Hello All,



                                  >



                                  > It was bad enough that HK sold



                                  >



                                  > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



                                  >



                                  > portrait. Now he's selling the "True



                                  >



                                  > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



                                  > 0D



                                  >



                                  > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                                  =0

                                  A

                                  >



                                  > portrait accurately? No, not quite!



                                  >



                                  > The truth has (once again) been



                                  >



                                  > embellished and distorted! Klemp,



                                  >



                                  > no doubt, likes this rendition because



                                  >



                                  > it makes him appear younger. Thus,



                                  >



                                  > this drawing looks more "sketch"



                                  >



                                  > like than portrait like!



                                  >



                                  > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



                                  >



                                  > a more modern, shaved look, and



                                  >



                                  > does not appear as thin as it really



                                  >



                                  > is (t
                                  he inside portion of his ear is



                                  >



                                  > different too).



                                  >



                                  > When looking at the front cover photo,



                                  >



                                  > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



                                  >



                                  > World of ECKankar" we can see that



                                  >



                                  > Klemp parts his hair on the side and



                                  >



                                  > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



                                  >



                                  > makes Klemp look younger.



                                  >



                                  > The question ECKists should be asking is,



                                  >



                                  > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



                                  >



                                  > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



                                  >



                                  > followers all want to "imagine" that they look



                                  >



                                  > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



                                  >



                                  > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



                                  >



                                  > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0

                                  D



                                  >



                                  > I think it's funny that Klemp names



                                  >



                                  > this new portrait "True Friend." Would



                                  >



                                  > a "true friend" say such nasty



                                  > and mean



                                  >



                                  > things to you? These RESAs and ot
                                  her



                                  >



                                  > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



                                  >



                                  > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



                                  >



                                  > now they see that there are strings



                                  >



                                  > attached and that it's a one-way friend-



                                  >



                                  > ship.



                                  >



                                  > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



                                  >



                                  > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



                                  >



                                  > himself, or give it to you... free of



                                  >



                                  > charge? Hmmmmmm.



                                  >



                                  > On another note, I saw how Klemp can



                                  >



                                  > make even more money from his image.



                                  >



                                  > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



                                  >



                                  > as though he has a big hole running



                                  >



                                  > through his head. So, maybe HK could



                                  >



                                  > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



                                  >



                                  > The chain would go through his ears!



                                  >



                                  > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



                                  >



                                  > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK



                                  >



                                  > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



                                  >


                                  =0
                                  A
                                  > he does with portraits, books, etc.



                                  >



                                  > Prometheus



                                  >



                                  &

                                  gt;



                                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                                  .yahoo.com



                                  >



                                  >



                                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

                                  .yahoo.com



                                  >



                                  Send instant messages to your online friends

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