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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!

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  • etznab@aol.com
    About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or something he heard / read? For some reason I thought
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
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      About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell
      got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or
      something he heard / read?

      For some reason I thought about Scientology. I then
      searched for keywords Scientology & from Jupiter.

      ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

      L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
      of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing" can
      raise your abilities to the point where you "know" something
      directly rather than having to discover it or learn it. He spoke
      authoritatively about life in the solar system. He claimed that
      Jupiter was inhabited by people who looked like Eskimos.
      You can hear him say it at:

      http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

      http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

      Coincidence?

      I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
      certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
      believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
      writers for a time.

      Etznab





      -----Original Message-----
      From: etznab@...
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:04 pm
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From
      JUPITER!








      Prometheus,



      You illustrated:



      I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

      5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

      1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

      that man was "placed here by colonists

      from JUPITER." This is20another dirty little

      secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

      Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

      are expected to "serve."



      That was a good point, I thought. Because

      legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

      of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

      in the beginning, they seep in over time when

      people speculate about what they read, and /

      or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

      (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

      organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

      when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

      actually happened I believe people have every

      right to challenge such allegations.



      Here are some examples. The early manu-

      scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

      Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

      1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

      by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



      These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

      not because I absolutely know all the details -

      but because the subject is "suspicious" and

      /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



      Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

      Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

      manuscripts were reportedly written.



      In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

      0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



      In one of your past posts (I don't have the #=0
      D

      or date) you wrote:



      "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

      his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

      back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

      was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



      I think that information was mentioned in Ford

      Johnson's book, too.



      Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

      the year 2000:



      ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

      did nothing with the book until he offered it to

      Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

      With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

      ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

      Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

      didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

      Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

      writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

      published until 1970."



      [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



      http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



      I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

      cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

      them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

      Singh.



      Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

      Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

      Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

      wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

      by Rebazar T
      arzs to Paul Twitchell.



      =0

      A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

      since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

      scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

      terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

      reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

      And it might possibly have been in the possession

      of Eckankar for a number of years.



      According to Kirpal Singh?



      "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

      The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

      ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

      He changed that book before printing; where he men-

      tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



      http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



      My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

      dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

      MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

      THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

      BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

      THAT NAME!



      Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

      manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it

      has the manuscript in its possession.



      There has been controversy over when the name of

      Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

      I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

      illustrated Rebazar Tarzs h
      istory prior to that, where is

      the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

      manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

      given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

      it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

      If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

      it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

      came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



      *************************************************************



      Those were examples because I have mostly seen

      the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

      have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



      If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

      that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

      does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

      have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

      the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



      I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

      One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

      in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



      Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

      (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

      Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

      Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

      have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

      that path in 1963. So ...?




      Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

      have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

      Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

      name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



      I have asked ab

      out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

      Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

      Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

      ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



      Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

      to have the truth.



      I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



      Etznab



      -----Original Message-----

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm

      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!



      Hello All,



      I thought I'd bring this back for



      another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas



      Ever to mention the Jupiter and



      Venus connection with the EK



      Masters when speaking to seekers?



      Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas



      ever to mention the lifetime "service"



      requirement to new seekers? No,



      again! I wonder, why Not? Too



      much Truth... they'd get spiritual



      indigestion!!!



      - Aryans Are Fr
      om JUPITER! -



      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING



      1984 writes:



      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,



      The world is never without him, for the line



      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



      from JUPITER."



      Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods



      (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D



      Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



      Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from



      Clarion! Klemp even has this planet



      mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



      "CLARION. A planet where higher



      evolved Souls are living to help carry



      on the work of GOD throughout the



      universe."



      Etznab wrote:



      More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



      "Eckankar was brought here from Venus



      by a little known race which is living in



      Agam Des, and whom we know as the



      Eshwar Khanewale [last two words



      in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.



      These beings are members of the Ancient



      Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.



      They attained their name, the god-eaters,



      from the fact that they absorb cosmic



      energies instead of assimilating plants



      and other20foods." [my brackets]



      Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,



      Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,



      p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



      ******************************************



      prometheus wrote:



      >



      Klemp is a scammer and his followers



      are gullible New Age wannabes!



      >



      How can rational and intelligent people



      believe in this crap! Most ECKists came



      from orthodox religions that taught



      similar fiction and myth. And, these



      Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the



      New Age ones have complex dogmas



      and glowing "spiritual" test

      imonials



      of miracles, visitations by angels and/or



      Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!



      >



      All religions rely upon the current



      LEADER's ability to control and manipulate



      the imaginations of his believers!



      >



      I'm still wondering how Klemp can say



      that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED



      HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"



      when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



      "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL



      Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD



      through the worlds, through the Planes



      and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds



      =0
      Aof the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.



      At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds



      of matter--some of the newly formed



      planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and



      THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little



      world of EARTH.



      Many CAME to the EARTH planet and



      formed the consciousness of man in



      the flesh temple of the human body,



      to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,



      and take up the burdens of karma until



      at last, one day, each would be ready



      to return to the heavenly home." [end]



      I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



      5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



      1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



      that man was "placed here by colonists



      from JUPITER." This is another dirty little



      secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



      Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists



      are expected to "serve."



      >



      Here's an interesting definition from



      Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):



      >



      "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE



      which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN



      of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM



      was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the



      FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of



      the RACES OF
      MAN upon EARTH."



      >



      It's true that Twitchell was a professional



      liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit



      stole the words and ideas of others without



      giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories



      of spiritual experiences from chelas written



      in Initiate Reports and letters in order to



      use these as "inspiration" for his books that



      he receives 50% royalties on!



      >



      Prometheus



      >



      ************************************************



      ETZNAB WROTE:



      Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up



      when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone



      mistranslated it to begin with.



      >



      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and



      all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under



      the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of



      years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the



      empire throughout the world. [....]"



      >



      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



      Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,



      1986, p. 97 ]



      >



      0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all



      its colonial empire came about by gas po
      ckets under the



      crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands



      of years ago. [....]"



      >



      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



      Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]



      >



      It looks like someone got rid of that reference



      to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took



      until 1988!



      prometheus wrote:



      > >



      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:



      > >



      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.



      The world is never without him, for the line



      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



      from JUPITER."



      > >



      ME: WOW! JUPITER!



      > >



      When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"



      in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is



      the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!



      > >



      People in this Current ROOT RACE, according



      to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from



      JUPITER!"



      > >



      Where are the other RACES from?



      > >



      Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?



      I don't think sooooo!!!
      =0
      A


      > >



      What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES



      from?



      > >



      Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far



      Far Away? That sounds like t

      he makings for



      another Klemp story! Yawn!



      > >



      Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that



      Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi



      Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was



      covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!



      > >



      This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your



      question to the inner" works in Eckankar!



      > >



      Prometheus



      > >



      P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or



      just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the



      Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter



      too, or were they from somewhere else? Did



      we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we



      aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?



      > >



      Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All



      the Universes (Klemp) have access to more



      of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)



      for his contradictions of information? Or, does



      Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)


      0A
      and is more focused upon those Souls residing



      on the Inner Planes? LOL!



      > >



      I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound



      sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield



      Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could



      it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced



      by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Etznab, At one time Twitchell was a high ranking member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron was his original source of compiled info on Jupiter. Thus, this
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Etznab,
        At one time Twitchell was a high ranking
        member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
        was his original source of "compiled" info
        on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's
        handed-down source since he tends to use
        other people (usually dead) as inspiration
        for his "EK wisdom."

        As far as Marman goes... he speculates...
        a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!

        Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who
        inspired him to take his piles of "research"
        and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963
        when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame
        GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's
        had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's
        kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must
        be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role
        by thinking she'd helped people who were
        desperate to believe in something more than
        what they had with their former orthodox
        religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and
        other cult-like religions can say and do the
        same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent
        than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's
        new buds. Gail should do the right thing and
        jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could
        even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and
        post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or
        Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to
        clear her conscience and protect those Souls
        whom she helped to delude.

        BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say
        that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang
        manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.
        Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/
        written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,
        a book of poetry?

        Prometheus

        Etznab wrote:
        About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul
        Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual
        experience? or something he heard / read?

        For some reason I thought about Scientology.
        I then searched for keywords Scientology &
        from Jupiter.

        ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

        L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
        of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"
        can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"
        something directly rather than having to discover it
        or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the
        solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited
        by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him
        say it at:

        http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

        http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

        Coincidence?

        I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
        certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
        believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
        writers for a time.

        Etznab



        Prometheus,
        You illustrated:

        I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

        5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

        1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

        that man was "placed here by colonists

        from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

        secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

        Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

        are expected to "serve."


        That was a good point, I thought. Because

        legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

        of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

        in the beginning, they seep in over time when

        people speculate about what they read, and /

        or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

        (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

        organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

        when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

        actually happened I believe people have every

        right to challenge such allegations.


        Here are some examples. The early manu-

        scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

        Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

        1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

        by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



        These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

        not because I absolutely know all the details -

        but because the subject is "suspicious" and

        /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



        Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

        Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

        manuscripts were reportedly written.



        In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

        "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



        In one of your past posts (I don't have the #

        or date) you wrote:



        "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

        his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

        back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

        was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



        I think that information was mentioned in Ford

        Johnson's book, too.



        Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

        the year 2000:



        ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

        did nothing with the book until he offered it to

        Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

        With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

        ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

        Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

        didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

        Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

        writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

        published until 1970."



        [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



        I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

        cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

        them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

        Singh.



        Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

        Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

        Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

        wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

        by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.


        Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

        since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

        scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

        terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

        reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

        And it might possibly have been in the possession

        of Eckankar for a number of years.



        According to Kirpal Singh?



        "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

        The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

        ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

        He changed that book before printing; where he men-

        tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



        My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

        dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

        MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

        THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

        BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

        THAT NAME!



        Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

        manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,

        if it has the manuscript in its possession.



        There has been controversy over when the name of

        Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

        I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

        illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is

        the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

        manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

        given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

        it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

        If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

        it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

        came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



        *************************************************************



        Those were examples because I have mostly seen

        the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

        have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



        If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

        that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

        does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

        have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

        the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



        I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

        One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

        in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



        Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

        (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

        Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

        Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

        have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

        that path in 1963. So ...?



        Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

        have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

        Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

        name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



        I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

        Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

        Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

        ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



        Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

        to have the truth.



        I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



        Etznab
      • etznab@aol.com
        Prometheus, I ve often wondered about Gail & Patti - ever since I started researching & posting as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was it 2005-2007? I think
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Prometheus,

          I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
          ever since I started researching & posting
          as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
          it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
          around there.

          It's a big question mark, to me, about
          whatever happened to Gail's involvement
          with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
          for so many years? However, I don't think
          Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
          mystery anymore, either, whether or not
          she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
          believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
          she was not any longer active. Instead of
          going into the details about this, my recoll-
          ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
          the story in her own time, in her own way.

          About how many books Paul Twitchell
          finished before 1966, I think I see your
          point.

          Etznab


          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:06 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
          JUPITER!








          Hello Etznab,

          At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

          member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

          was his original source of "compiled" info

          on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

          handed-down source since he tends to use

          other people (usually dead) as inspiration

          for his "EK wisdom."



          As far as Marman goes...
          he speculates...

          a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



          Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

          inspired him to take his piles of "research"

          and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

          when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

          GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

          had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

          kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

          be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

          by thinking she'd helped people who were

          desperate to believe in something more than

          what they had with their former orthodox

          religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

          other cult-like religions can say and do the

          same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

          than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

          new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

          jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

          even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

          post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

          Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

          clear her conscience and protect those Souls

          whom she helped to delude.



          BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

          that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

          manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

          Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

          written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

          a book of poetry?
          0D


          Prometheus



          Etznab wrote:

          About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

          Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

          experience? or something he heard / read?



          For some reason I thought about Scientology.

          I then searched for keywords Scientology &

          from Jupiter.



          ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



          L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

          of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

          can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

          something directly rather than having to discover it

          or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

          solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

          by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

          say it at:



          http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



          http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



          Coincidence?



          I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

          certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

          believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

          writers for a time.



          Etznab



          Prometheus,

          You illustrated:



          I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



          5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



          1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



          that man was "placed here by colonists



          from JUPITER." This is another dirty little




          secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



          Another dirty little secret is that ECKists



          are expected to "serve."



          That was a good point, I thought. Because



          legends, myths, fables and folktales are part



          of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not



          in the beginning, they seep in over time when



          people speculate about what they read, and /



          or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo



          (man-made) religion / history are a part of the



          organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However



          when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &



          actually happened I believe people have every



          right to challenge such allegations.



          Here are some examples. The early manu-



          scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The



          Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later



          1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books



          by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



          These are examples about truth vs. fiction -



          not because I absolutely know all the details -



          but because the subject is "suspicious" and



          /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



          Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal



          Singh round about the mid 50s when the two



          manuscripts were reportedly written.

          0A

          In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his



          "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



          In one of your past posts (I don't have the #



          or date) you wrote:



          "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on



          his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came



          back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second



          was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



          I think that information was mentioned in Ford



          Johnson's book, too.



          Consider what Doug Marman gave back around



          the year 2000:



          ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but



          did nothing with the book until he offered it to



          Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues



          With The Master around 1956, from the refer-



          ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.



          Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but



          didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion



          Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's



          writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't



          published until 1970."



          [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



          I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-



          cause Paul includes him in the two book
          s. One of



          them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal



          Singh.



          Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal



          Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in



          Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson



          wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"



          by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.



          Although I don't absolutely know all the details,



          since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-



          scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar



          terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh



          reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.



          And it might possibly have been in the possession



          of Eckankar for a number of years.



          According to Kirpal Singh?



          "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,



          The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-



          ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.



          He changed that book before printing; where he men-



          tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



          My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh



          dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.



          MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED



          THE TIGER'S FAN
          G MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS



          BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY



          THAT NAME!



          Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early



          manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,



          if it has the manuscript in its possession.



          There has been controversy over when the name of



          Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date



          I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an



          illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is



          the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang



          manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs



          given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was



          it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?



          If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar



          it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who



          came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



          *************************************************************



          Those were examples because I have mostly seen



          the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't



          have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



          If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,



          that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs



          does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I wo
          uld



          have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to



          the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



          I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.



          One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And



          in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



          Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.



          (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The



          Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in



          Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may



          have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into



          that path in 1963. So ...?



          Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to



          have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's



          Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the



          name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



          I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.



          Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-



          Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-



          ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



          Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right



          to have the truth.



          I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



          Etznab








          0D
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Etznab, I figured Patti had left EKankar since she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar Board the day after Klemp & his new Board went after Darwin. Joan
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 12, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Etznab,
            I figured Patti had left EKankar since
            she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar
            Board the day after Klemp & his new Board
            went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take
            Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,
            the same day as the resignation. Apparently
            Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand
            in the wings, and await, until opportunity
            comes a knocking.

            Prometheus


            Prometheus,

            I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
            ever since I started researching & posting
            as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
            it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
            around there.

            It's a big question mark, to me, about
            whatever happened to Gail's involvement
            with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
            for so many years? However, I don't think
            Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
            mystery anymore, either, whether or not
            she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
            believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
            she was not any longer active. Instead of
            going into the details about this, my recoll-
            ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
            the story in her own time, in her own way.

            About how many books Paul Twitchell
            finished before 1966, I think I see your
            point.

            Etznab


            prometheus wrote:

            Hello Etznab,

            At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

            member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

            was his original source of "compiled" info

            on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

            handed-down source since he tends to use

            other people (usually dead) as inspiration

            for his "EK wisdom."


            As far as Marman goes... he speculates...

            a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



            Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

            inspired him to take his piles of "research"

            and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

            when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

            GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

            had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

            kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

            be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

            by thinking she'd helped people who were

            desperate to believe in something more than

            what they had with their former orthodox

            religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

            other cult-like religions can say and do the

            same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

            than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

            new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

            jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

            even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

            post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

            Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

            clear her conscience and protect those Souls

            whom she helped to delude.



            BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

            that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

            manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

            Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

            written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

            a book of poetry?



            Prometheus



            Etznab wrote:

            About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

            Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

            experience? or something he heard / read?



            For some reason I thought about Scientology.

            I then searched for keywords Scientology &

            from Jupiter.



            ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



            L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

            of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

            can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

            something directly rather than having to discover it

            or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

            solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

            by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

            say it at:



            http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



            http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



            Coincidence?



            I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

            certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

            believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

            writers for a time.



            Etznab
          • etznab@aol.com
            Prometheus, I wasn t aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I had the impression she was removed. Here is why: Another interesting development in the August 7
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Prometheus,

              I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
              had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

              "Another interesting development in the August
              7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
              of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
              Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
              of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
              resolution, summarily removed from this position
              and told that

              ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
              both such removal and termination being effective imm-
              ediately. [....]

              "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

              ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
              immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
              current term of Secretary."

              [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
              A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234] 

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
              JUPITER!








              Hi Etznab,

              I figured Patti had left EKankar since

              she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

              Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

              went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

              Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

              the same day as the resignation. Apparently

              Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

              in the win
              gs, and await, until opportunity

              comes a knocking.



              Prometheus



              Prometheus,



              I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

              ever since I started researching & posting

              as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

              it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

              around there.



              It's a big question mark, to me, about

              whatever happened to Gail's involvement

              with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

              for so many years? However, I don't think

              Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

              mystery anymore, either, whether or not

              she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

              believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

              she was not any longer active. Instead of

              going into the details about this, my recoll-

              ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

              the story in her own time, in her own way.



              About how many books Paul Twitchell

              finished before 1966, I think I see your

              point.



              Etznab



              prometheus wrote:



              Hello Etznab,



              At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



              member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



              was his original source of "compiled" info



              on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



              handed-down source since he tends to use



              other people (usually dead) as inspiration



              for his "EK wisdom."

              0D

              As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



              a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



              Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



              inspired him to take his piles of "research"



              and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



              when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



              GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



              had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



              kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



              be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



              by thinking she'd helped people who were



              desperate to believe in something more than



              what they had with their former orthodox



              religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



              other cult-like religions can say and do the



              same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



              than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



              new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



              jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



              even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



              post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



              Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



              clear her conscience and protect those Souls



              whom she helped to delude.



              BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


              =0
              A
              that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



              manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



              Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



              written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



              a book of poetry?



              Prometheus



              Etznab wrote:



              About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul



              Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual



              experience? or something he heard / read?



              For some reason I thought about Scientology.



              I then searched for keywords Scientology &



              from Jupiter.



              ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



              L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science



              of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"



              can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"



              something directly rather than having to discover it



              or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the



              solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited



              by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him



              say it at:



              http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



              http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



              Coincidence?



              I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and



              certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I



              believe Twitchell and Hubbard were
              both science fiction



              writers for a time.



              Etznab
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Etznab, If I could access the Truth-Seeker site I would show the minutes from the meeting where officers and trustees were appointed along with a long
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Etznab,
                If I could access the Truth-Seeker
                site I would show the minutes from
                the meeting where officers and trustees
                were appointed along with a long discussion
                of what to do about Darwin. Patti was
                appointed as Secretary during this very
                long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.
                A recess was taken and the meeting was
                to resume the very next day.

                However, Patti resigned the next day after
                having the night to think or dream about
                what was being done to Darwin by Klemp
                and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan
                documented the details differently, after
                Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"
                when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-
                up began early on. A "resolution" was simply
                done to officially accept Patti's resignation.
                Another motion and "vote" was made into
                a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty
                position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman
                to ask Patti how it went down, according to
                her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!

                Prometheus
                p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather
                than take his word for what she has to say.


                etznab wrote:

                Prometheus,

                I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                "Another interesting development in the August
                7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                resolution, summarily removed from this position
                and told that

                ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                ediately. [....]

                "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                current term of Secretary."

                [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â

                Etznab

                Prometheus wrote:


                Hi Etznab,

                I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                in the wings, and await, until opportunity

                comes a knocking.



                Prometheus



                Prometheus,



                I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                ever since I started researching & posting

                as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                around there.



                It's a big question mark, to me, about

                whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                for so many years? However, I don't think

                Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                she was not any longer active. Instead of

                going into the details about this, my recoll-

                ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                the story in her own time, in her own way.



                About how many books Paul Twitchell

                finished before 1966, I think I see your

                point.



                Etznab



                prometheus wrote:



                Hello Etznab,



                At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                was his original source of "compiled" info



                on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                handed-down source since he tends to use



                other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                for his "EK wisdom."



                As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                by thinking she'd helped people who were



                desperate to believe in something more than



                what they had with their former orthodox



                religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                other cult-like religions can say and do the



                same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                whom she helped to delude.



                BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                =0
                A
                that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                a book of poetry?



                Prometheus
              • etznab@aol.com
                Prometheus, Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this what I had read. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 16, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Prometheus,

                  Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this
                  what I had read.

                  Etznab

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                  Removed!








                  Hi Etznab,

                  If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                  site I would show the minutes from

                  the meeting where officers and trustees

                  were appointed along with a long discussion

                  of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                  appointed as Secretary during this very

                  long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                  A recess was taken and the meeting was

                  to resume the very next day.



                  However, Patti resigned the next day after

                  having the night to think or dream about

                  what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                  and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                  documented the details differently, after

                  Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                  when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                  up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                  done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                  Another motion and "vote" was made into

                  a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                  position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                  to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                  her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                  =0
                  APrometheus

                  p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                  than take his word for what she has to say.



                  etznab wrote:



                  Prometheus,



                  I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                  had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                  "Another interesting development in the August

                  7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                  of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                  Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                  of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                  resolution, summarily removed from this position

                  and told that



                  ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                  both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                  ediately. [....]



                  "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                  ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                  immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                  current term of Secretary."



                  [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                  A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                  Etznab



                  Prometheus wrote:



                  Hi Etznab,



                  I figured Patti had left EKankar since



                  she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                  Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                  went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                  Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                  the same day as th
                  e resignation. Apparently



                  Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                  in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                  comes a knocking.



                  Prometheus



                  Prometheus,



                  I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                  ever since I started researching & posting



                  as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                  it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                  around there.



                  It's a big question mark, to me, about



                  whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                  with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                  for so many years? However, I don't think



                  Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                  mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                  she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                  believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                  she was not any longer active. Instead of



                  going into the details about this, my recoll-



                  ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                  the story in her own time, in her own way.



                  About how many books Paul Twitchell



                  finished before 1966, I think I see your



                  point.



                  Etznab



                  prometheus wrote:



                  Hello Etznab,



                  At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                  member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                  0A


                  was his original source of "compiled" info



                  on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                  handed-down source since he tends to use



                  other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                  for his "EK wisdom."



                  As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                  a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                  Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                  inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                  and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                  when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                  GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                  had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                  kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                  be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                  by thinking she'd helped people who were



                  desperate to believe in something more than



                  what they had with their former orthodox



                  religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                  other cult-like religions can say and do the



                  same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                  than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                  new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                  jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                  even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                  post so
                  me tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                  Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                  clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                  whom she helped to delude.



                  BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                  =0

                  A

                  that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                  manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                  Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                  written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                  a book of poetry?



                  Prometheus
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Something else for this thread. From The Truth-Seeker site. It doesn t have to do with the August 7th, 1983 meeting. Not unless that was the time when Patti
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 27, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Something else for this thread. From The
                    Truth-Seeker site.

                    It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                    1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                    time when Patti became not active. My
                    guess was it refers to some time later.

                    [....]

                    A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                    an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                    Freeman

                    http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                    I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                    Doug's response:

                    "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                    fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                    not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                    rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                    http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                    I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                    a response, but I assume it was February
                    2004. The 16th?

                    Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                    http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                    Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                    until days later, but I think the link where he
                    did respond is currently not working.

                    http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                    Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                    guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                    the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                    Forum link.

                    There are a number of links (more than a few)
                    on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                    the present time.

                    At any rate, according to D
                    oug (apparently)
                    Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                    at least.

                    I don't know when Patti became not active,
                    or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                    terminated or resigned from her position of
                    Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                    it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                    that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                    future wife.

                    Etznab





                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                    Removed!








                    Hi Etznab,

                    If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                    site I would show the minutes from

                    the meeting where officers and trustees

                    were appointed along with a long discussion

                    of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                    appointed as Secretary during this very

                    long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                    A recess was taken and the meeting was

                    to resume the very next day.



                    However, Patti resigned the next day after

                    having the night to think or dream about

                    what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                    and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                    documented the details differently, after

                    Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                    when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                    up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                    done to officiall
                    y accept Patti's resignation.

                    Another motion and "vote" was made into

                    a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                    position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                    to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                    her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                    Prometheus

                    p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                    than take his word for what she has to say.



                    etznab wrote:



                    Prometheus,



                    I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                    had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                    "Another interesting development in the August

                    7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                    of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                    Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                    of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                    resolution, summarily removed from this position

                    and told that



                    ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                    both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                    ediately. [....]



                    "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                    ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                    immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                    current term of Secretary."



                    [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                    A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                    Etznab



                    Prometheus wrote:



                    Hi Etznab,



                    I
                    figured Patti had left EKankar since



                    she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                    Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                    went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                    Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                    the same day as the resignation. Apparently



                    Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                    in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                    comes a knocking.



                    Prometheus



                    Prometheus,



                    I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                    ever since I started researching & posting



                    as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                    it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                    around there.



                    It's a big question mark, to me, about



                    whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                    with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                    for so many years? However, I don't think



                    Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                    mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                    she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                    believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                    she was not any longer active. Instead of



                    going into the details about this, my recoll-



                    ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                    the story in her own time, in her own way.



                    About how=2
                    0many books Paul Twitchell



                    finished before 1966, I think I see your



                    point.



                    Etznab



                    prometheus wrote:



                    Hello Etznab,



                    At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                    member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                    was his original source of "compiled" info



                    on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                    handed-down source since he tends to use



                    other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                    for his "EK wisdom."



                    As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                    a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                    Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                    inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                    and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                    when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                    GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                    had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                    kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                    be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                    by thinking she'd helped people who were



                    desperate to believe in something more than



                    what they had with their former orthodox



                    religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                    other cult-like religions can say and do the



                    same. Therefore, Gai
                    l is more the KAL agent



                    than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                    new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                    jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                    even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                    post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                    Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                    clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                    whom she helped to delude.



                    BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                    =0

                    A

                    that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                    manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                    Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                    written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                    a book of poetry?



                    Prometheus
                  • prometheus_973
                    Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of figured that Patti wasn t active in ECKankar since she was talking so highly about Ram Dass recently. And, since she
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 2, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of
                      figured that Patti wasn't active in ECKankar
                      since she was talking so highly about Ram
                      Dass recently. And, since she hasn't kept
                      her EK Membership current, this means
                      that her consciousness is now around
                      that of a current 2nd Initiate! Wow! From
                      8th to 2nd just because of a few bucks
                      ($$$)! Actually, would a real spiritual
                      "path" charge money to maintain one's
                      (Soul's) inner plane level of consciousness?
                      Well, yes! Because all of this (religions, etc.)
                      is of the physical and Not the spiritual.
                      That's why they sell books and other
                      materials and require "requested" donations!
                      The only "free lunch" (freedom) comes
                      when Soul eliminates the middleman!

                      Prometheus


                      Etznab wrote:
                      Something else for this thread. From The
                      Truth-Seeker site.

                      It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                      1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                      time when Patti became not active. My
                      guess was it refers to some time later.

                      [....]

                      A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                      an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                      Freeman

                      http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                      I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                      Doug's response:

                      "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                      fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                      not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                      rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                      http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                      I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                      a response, but I assume it was February
                      2004. The 16th?

                      Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                      http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                      Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                      until days later, but I think the link where he
                      did respond is currently not working.

                      http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                      Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                      guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                      the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                      Forum link.

                      There are a number of links (more than a few)
                      on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                      the present time.

                      At any rate, according to Doug (apparently)
                      Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                      at least.

                      I don't know when Patti became not active,
                      or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                      terminated or resigned from her position of
                      Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                      it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                      that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                      future wife.

                      Etznab



                      Hi Etznab,

                      If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                      site I would show the minutes from

                      the meeting where officers and trustees

                      were appointed along with a long discussion

                      of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                      appointed as Secretary during this very

                      long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                      A recess was taken and the meeting was

                      to resume the very next day.



                      However, Patti resigned the next day after

                      having the night to think or dream about

                      what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                      and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                      documented the details differently, after

                      Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                      when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                      up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                      done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                      Another motion and "vote" was made into

                      a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                      position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                      to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                      her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                      Prometheus

                      p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                      than take his word for what she has to say.
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