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Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, It was bad enough that HK sold his droopy-eyed Gaze of the Master portrait. Now he s selling the True Friend 8 x 10 sketch (portrait). But, did
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 8, 2009
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      Hello All,
      It was bad enough that HK sold
      his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
      portrait. Now he's selling the "True
      Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).

      But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
      portrait accurately? No, not quite!
      The truth has (once again) been
      embellished and distorted! Klemp,
      no doubt, likes this rendition because
      it makes him appear younger. Thus,
      this drawing looks more "sketch"
      like than portrait like!

      What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
      a more modern, shaved look, and
      does not appear as thin as it really
      is (the inside portion of his ear is
      different too).

      When looking at the front cover photo,
      of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
      World of ECKankar" we can see that
      Klemp parts his hair on the side and
      does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
      makes Klemp look younger.

      The question ECKists should be asking is,
      Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
      are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
      followers all want to "imagine" that they look
      "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
      Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
      rather than having an Astral Plane image!

      I think it's funny that Klemp names
      this new portrait "True Friend." Would
      a "true friend" say such nasty and mean
      things to you? These RESAs and other
      H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
      Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
      now they see that there are strings
      attached and that it's a one-way friend-
      ship.

      BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
      you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
      himself, or give it to you... free of
      charge? Hmmmmmm.

      On another note, I saw how Klemp can
      make even more money from his image.
      HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
      as though he has a big hole running
      through his head. So, maybe HK could
      have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
      The chain would go through his ears!
      He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
      $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK
      will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
      he does with portraits, books, etc.

      Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that chelas should Gaze at a $ picture of himself, or contemplate upon his
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 22, 2009
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        Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
        is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
        chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
        or contemplate upon his Physical image via
        his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
        of an Astral image. How is this the same as
        meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
        Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
        with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
        than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
        Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
        (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
        of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
        teach and other "believers" experience!

        Prometheus


        Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

        Hello All,
        It was bad enough that HK sold
        his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
        portrait. Now he's selling the "True
        Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).

        But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
        portrait accurately? No, not quite!
        The truth has (once again) been
        embellished and distorted! Klemp,
        no doubt, likes this rendition because
        it makes him appear younger. Thus,
        this drawing looks more "sketch"
        like than portrait like!

        What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
        a more modern, shaved look, and
        does not appear as thin as it really
        is (the inside portion of his ear is
        different too).

        When looking at the front cover photo,
        of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
        World of ECKankar" we can see that
        Klemp parts his hair on the side and
        does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
        makes Klemp look younger.

        The question ECKists should be asking is,
        Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
        are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
        followers all want to "imagine" that they look
        "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
        Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
        rather than having an Astral Plane image!

        I think it's funny that Klemp names
        this new portrait "True Friend." Would
        a "true friend" say such nasty and mean
        things to you? These RESAs and other
        H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
        Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
        now they see that there are strings
        attached and that it's a one-way friend-
        ship.

        BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
        you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
        himself, or give it to you... free of
        charge? Hmmmmmm.

        On another note, I saw how Klemp can
        make even more money from his image.
        HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
        as though he has a big hole running
        through his head. So, maybe HK could
        have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
        The chain would go through his ears!
        He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
        $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK
        will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
        he does with portraits, books, etc.

        Prometheus
      • etznab@aol.com
        I would like to know the difference between Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe, the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something about the inner form of
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 23, 2009
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          I would like to know the difference between
          Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
          the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
          about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

          The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
          a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
          Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

          This is something I've been contemplating
          for some time: What is different with the two
          types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
          about this subject).

          There's another thing on this subject, and it
          has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
          I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
          body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
          Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
          any of the other lower world bodies where there
          are many different ones - including the physical
          body.

          So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
          Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
          only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
          Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
          Something like another dimension.

          Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
          and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
          the Living Eck Master become so important?
          Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
          to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
          the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
          understanding is that the astral body is limited
          to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
          transc
          ends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
          to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

          Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
          it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
          the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
          Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
          already!

          ?????????????????????????????????????

          A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
          Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
          to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
          D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
          T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
          getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
          Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
          Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
          the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
          only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
          quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
          Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
          Fang account and the year 1957.

          ?????????????????????????????????????

          I wonder, were those two different books, the
          two different manuscripts, about the same basic
          experience?

          BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
          online version of The Path of the Masters? by
          Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
          entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
          Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
          Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
          on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
          Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Examp
          le:
          A Talk With Rami Nuri.

          I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
          books and read from the beginning, looking at
          how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
          the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
          this point in time. I'm discovering things that
          had escaped me up until now.

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 12:29 am
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
          "Body"








          Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

          is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

          chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

          or contemplate upon his Physical image via

          his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

          of an Astral image. How is this the same as

          meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

          Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

          with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

          than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

          Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

          (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

          of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

          teach and other "believers" experience!



          Prometheus





          Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



          Hello All,

          It was bad enough that HK sold

          his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

          portrait. No
          w he's selling the "True

          Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



          But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

          portrait accurately? No, not quite!

          The truth has (once again) been

          embellished and distorted! Klemp,

          no doubt, likes this rendition because

          it makes him appear younger. Thus,

          this drawing looks more "sketch"

          like than portrait like!



          What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

          a more modern, shaved look, and

          does not appear as thin as it really

          is (the inside portion of his ear is

          different too).



          When looking at the front cover photo,

          of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

          World of ECKankar" we can see that

          Klemp parts his hair on the side and

          does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

          makes Klemp look younger.



          The question ECKists should be asking is,

          Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

          are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

          followers all want to "imagine" that they look

          "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

          Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

          rather than having an Astral Plane image!



          I think it's funny that Klemp names

          this new portrait "True Friend." Would

          a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

          things to you? These RESAs and other

          H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

          Letter see Klemp as a True Friend
          , but

          now they see that there are strings

          attached and that it's a one-way friend-

          ship.



          BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

          you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

          himself, or give it to you... free of

          charge? Hmmmmmm.



          On another note, I saw how Klemp can

          make even more money from his image.

          HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

          as though he has a big hole running

          through his head. So, maybe HK could

          have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

          The chain would go through his ears!

          He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

          $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

          will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

          he does with portraits, books, etc.



          Prometheus
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Etznab, You make some good points and have brought up more information to point out Twitchell s and, now, Klemp s scam. I ll have to look at my copy of
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 24, 2009
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            Hello Etznab,
            You make some good points and have
            brought up more information to point
            out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
            I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
            and D.W.T.M. later.

            It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
            Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
            Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
            Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
            their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
            "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
            overlook this point. And, look at how
            many years Klemp has instructed EKists
            to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
            singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
            is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
            Chakra is still being used after 28 years
            under Klemp's rule(s)!

            BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
            actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
            is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
            Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
            become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
            or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
            being that same Over-Soul which, then,
            becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
            by-pass the hierarchy and can become
            "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
            on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
            you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

            Prometheus
            p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
            LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
            where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
            resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
            Plane!

            Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
            thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
            Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
            with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
            Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
            [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]


            Etznab wrote:
            I would like to know the difference between
            Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
            the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
            about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

            The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
            a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
            Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

            This is something I've been contemplating
            for some time: What is different with the two
            types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
            about this subject).

            There's another thing on this subject, and it
            has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
            I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
            body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
            Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
            any of the other lower world bodies where there
            are many different ones - including the physical
            body.

            So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
            Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
            only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
            Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
            Something like another dimension.

            Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
            and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
            the Living Eck Master become so important?
            Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
            to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
            the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
            understanding is that the astral body is limited
            to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
            transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
            to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

            Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
            it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
            the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
            Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
            already!

            ?????????????????????????????????????

            A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
            Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
            to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
            D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
            T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
            getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
            Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
            Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
            the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
            only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
            quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
            Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
            Fang account and the year 1957.

            ?????????????????????????????????????

            I wonder, were those two different books, the
            two different manuscripts, about the same basic
            experience?

            BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
            online version of The Path of the Masters? by
            Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
            entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
            Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
            Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
            on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
            Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
            A Talk With Rami Nuri.

            I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
            books and read from the beginning, looking at
            how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
            the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
            this point in time. I'm discovering things that
            had escaped me up until now.

            Etznab



            HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"


            Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

            is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

            chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

            or contemplate upon his Physical image via

            his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

            of an Astral image. How is this the same as

            meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

            Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

            with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

            than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

            Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

            (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

            of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

            teach and other "believers" experience!



            Prometheus





            Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



            Hello All,

            It was bad enough that HK sold

            his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

            portrait. Now he's selling the "True

            Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



            But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

            portrait accurately? No, not quite!

            The truth has (once again) been

            embellished and distorted! Klemp,

            no doubt, likes this rendition because

            it makes him appear younger. Thus,

            this drawing looks more "sketch"

            like than portrait like!



            What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

            a more modern, shaved look, and

            does not appear as thin as it really

            is (the inside portion of his ear is

            different too).



            When looking at the front cover photo,

            of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

            World of ECKankar" we can see that

            Klemp parts his hair on the side and

            does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

            makes Klemp look younger.



            The question ECKists should be asking is,

            Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

            are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

            followers all want to "imagine" that they look

            "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

            Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

            rather than having an Astral Plane image!



            I think it's funny that Klemp names

            this new portrait "True Friend." Would

            a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

            things to you? These RESAs and other

            H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

            Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

            now they see that there are strings

            attached and that it's a one-way friend-

            ship.



            BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

            you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

            himself, or give it to you... free of

            charge? Hmmmmmm.



            On another note, I saw how Klemp can

            make even more money from his image.

            HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

            as though he has a big hole running

            through his head. So, maybe HK could

            have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

            The chain would go through his ears!

            He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

            $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

            will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

            he does with portraits, books, etc.



            Prometheus
          • etznab@aol.com
            Have you ever read about, Over-Soul Seven? Prometheus, No. I haven t. The reference to number seven interests me. Since seven heavens , or seven spheres
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 24, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

              Prometheus,

              No. I haven't.

              The reference to number seven interests me.
              Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
              mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
              Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
              me the impression of eight basic planes, where
              the eighth (and highest) was considered above
              them all. Like, something on another level, so
              to speak. Examples:

              p. 156

              "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
              of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
              of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
              all!"

              [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
              during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
              not sure. That quote is on the second page
              of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
              Question: Why does he mention seven?]

              For some reason, I'm under the impression
              that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
              a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
              8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
              the same book.

              p. 195

              "When I want to show the world my highest
              grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
              This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
              sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
              is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
              final for he represents my power in the seven
              lower worlds."

              [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
              I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

              Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
              my earlier post. The being supposed to have
              spoken those words was either Anami, or the
              SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
              have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
              story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
              Consider the last seven words in that quote:

              ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

              I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
              Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
              (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
              (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
              Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
              I suspect the earlier models had around eight
              planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
              book would mention this many and then the
              1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
              a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
              haste, and will have to go back & check the
              names of the planes for accuracy.)

              In the next chapter following that one (THE
              SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
              go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
              of the chapter:

              p. 197

              Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
              you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
              into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
              of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
              you will then know for yourself. [....]

              p. 199

              "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
              speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
              among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
              serve to take the message of the divine to all my
              creations throughout the seven spheres."

              Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
              by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
              once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
              other time mentions seven spheres.

              It was the context from those chapters that gave me
              the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
              etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
              place "above" them and making a total of eight.

              I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
              Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
              be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
              during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
              a total of only seven planets.

              As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
              starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
              notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
              when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
              and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
              1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
              take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
              the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
              (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
              materials. Like, how much of it was material that
              was already known to history? How much was in
              the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
              How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
              How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
              how much of the material had actually come direct
              from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
              (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

              This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
              so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
              history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
              other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

              Etznab



              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
              "Body"








              Hello Etznab,

              You make some good points and have

              brought up more information to point

              out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

              I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

              and D.W.T.M. later.



              It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

              Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

              Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

              Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

              their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

              "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

              overlook this point. And, look at how

              many years Klemp has instructed EKists

              to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

              singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

              is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
              D

              Chakra is still being used after 28 years

              under Klemp's rule(s)!



              BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

              actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

              is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

              Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

              become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

              or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

              being that same Over-Soul which, then,

              becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

              by-pass the hierarchy and can become

              "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

              on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

              you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



              Prometheus

              p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

              LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

              where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

              resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

              Plane!



              Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

              thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

              Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

              with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

              Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

              [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



              Etznab wrote:

              I would like to know the difference between

              Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

              the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

              about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.



              The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

              a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
              D

              Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



              This is something I've been contemplating

              for some time: What is different with the two

              types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

              about this subject).



              There's another thing on this subject, and it

              has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

              I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

              body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

              Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

              any of the other lower world bodies where there

              are many different ones - including the physical

              body.



              So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

              Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

              only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

              Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

              Something like another dimension.



              Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

              and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

              the Living Eck Master become so important?

              Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

              to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

              the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

              understanding is that the astral body is limited

              to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

              transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

              to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



              Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

              it reads like that was his first vis
              it. However, in

              the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

              Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

              already!



              ?????????????????????????????????????



              A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

              Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

              to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

              D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

              T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

              getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

              Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

              Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

              the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

              only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

              quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

              Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

              Fang account and the year 1957.



              ?????????????????????????????????????



              I wonder, were those two different books, the

              two different manuscripts, about the same basic

              experience?



              BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

              online version of The Path of the Masters? by

              Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

              entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

              Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

              Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

              on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

              Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

              A Talk With Rami Nuri.



              I've
              decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

              books and read from the beginning, looking at

              how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

              the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

              this point in time. I'm discovering things that

              had escaped me up until now.



              Etznab



              HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



              Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



              is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



              chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



              or contemplate upon his Physical image via



              his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



              of an Astral image. How is this the same as



              meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



              Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



              with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



              than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



              Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



              (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



              of the Lower Planes just as all other religions



              teach and other "believers" experience!



              Prometheus



              Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



              Hello All,



              It was bad enough that HK sold



              his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



              portrait. Now he's selling the "True



              Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
              0D


              But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the



              portrait accurately? No, not quite!



              The truth has (once again) been



              embellished and distorted! Klemp,



              no doubt, likes this rendition because



              it makes him appear younger. Thus,



              this drawing looks more "sketch"



              like than portrait like!



              What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



              a more modern, shaved look, and



              does not appear as thin as it really



              is (the inside portion of his ear is



              different too).



              When looking at the front cover photo,



              of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



              World of ECKankar" we can see that



              Klemp parts his hair on the side and



              does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



              makes Klemp look younger.



              The question ECKists should be asking is,



              Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



              are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



              followers all want to "imagine" that they look



              "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



              Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



              rather than having an Astral Plane image!



              I think it's funny that Klemp names



              this new portrait "True Friend." Would



              a "true friend" say such nasty
              and mean



              things to you? These RESAs and other



              H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



              Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



              now they see that there are strings



              attached and that it's a one-way friend-



              ship.



              BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



              you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



              himself, or give it to you... free of



              charge? Hmmmmmm.



              On another note, I saw how Klemp can



              make even more money from his image.



              HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



              as though he has a big hole running



              through his head. So, maybe HK could



              have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



              The chain would go through his ears!



              He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



              $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK



              will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



              he does with portraits, books, etc.



              Prometheus
            • Jason Mc Dermott
              Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Etznab

                I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                           The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                            Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

                Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they're quite good.

                Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
                As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

                 Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

                I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

                Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

                I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

                Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html

                hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

                Jay




                From: "etznab@..." <etznab@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                Prometheus,

                No. I haven't.

                The reference to number seven interests me.
                Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                them all. Like, something on another level, so
                to speak. Examples:

                p. 156

                "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                all!"

                [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                not sure. That quote is on the second page
                of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                For some reason, I'm under the impression
                that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                the same book.

                p. 195

                "When I want to show the world my highest
                grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                final for he represents my power in the seven
                lower worlds."

                [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                book would mention this many and then the
                1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                haste, and will have to go back & check the
                names of the planes for accuracy.)

                In the next chapter following that one (THE
                SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                of the chapter:

                p. 197

                Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                you will then know for yourself. [....]

                p. 199

                "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                creations throughout the seven spheres."

                Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                other time mentions seven spheres.

                It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                a total of only seven planets.

                As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                was already known to history? How much was in
                the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                how much of the material had actually come direct
                from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                Etznab

                -----Original Message-----
                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                "Body"

                Hello Etznab,

                You make some good points and have

                brought up more information to point

                out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                and D.W.T.M. later.

                It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                overlook this point. And, look at how

                many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                D

                Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                under Klemp's rule(s)!

                BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

                become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                Prometheus

                p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                Plane!

                Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                Etznab wrote:

                I would like to know the difference between

                Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

                The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                D

                Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                This is something I've been contemplating

                for some time: What is different with the two

                types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                about this subject).

                There's another thing on this subject, and it

                has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                any of the other lower world bodies where there

                are many different ones - including the physical

                body.

                So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                Something like another dimension.

                Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                the Living Eck Master become so important?

                Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                understanding is that the astral body is limited

                to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                it reads like that was his first vis
                it. However, in

                the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                already!

                ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

                only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                Fang account and the year 1957.

                ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                I wonder, were those two different books, the

                two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                experience?

                BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                I've
                decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                books and read from the beginning, looking at

                how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                had escaped me up until now.

                Etznab

                HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                teach and other "believers" experience!

                Prometheus

                Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                Hello All,

                It was bad enough that HK sold

                his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                0D

                But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                The truth has (once again) been

                embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                no doubt, likes this rendition because

                it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                this drawing looks more "sketch"

                like than portrait like!

                What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                a more modern, shaved look, and

                does not appear as thin as it really

                is (the inside portion of his ear is

                different too).

                When looking at the front cover photo,

                of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                World of ECKankar" we can see that

                Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                makes Klemp look younger.

                The question ECKists should be asking is,

                Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                rather than having an Astral Plane image!

                I think it's funny that Klemp names

                this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                a "true friend" say such nasty
                and mean

                things to you? These RESAs and other

                H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                now they see that there are strings

                attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                ship.

                BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                himself, or give it to you... free of

                charge? Hmmmmmm.

                On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                make even more money from his image.

                HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                as though he has a big hole running

                through his head. So, maybe HK could

                have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                The chain would go through his ears!

                He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                he does with portraits, books, etc.

                Prometheus


                Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
              • etznab@aol.com
                [....] So one year after getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for) Dialogues With The Master. In it he
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  "[....] So one year after getting initiated by
                  Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul Twitchell writes
                  a book (the manuscript for) Dialogues With
                  The Master. In it he travels all the way to the
                  nameless plane. Anami. & not only once,
                  but twice! Something doesn't seem quite
                  right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                  Realization is usually identified with The
                  Tiger's Fang account and the year 1957."

                  I think that needs a little clarification.

                  In Dialogues With The Master Paul T.
                  writes in the Introduction section:

                  [....] He concluded his series of talks that
                  year by taking me on the spiritual journey
                  recorded in my book "The Tiger's Fang."

                  Using the date for writing the Dialogues
                  With The Master manuscript to be 1956,
                  it would seem that the "spiritual journey"
                  recorded in The Tiger's Fang book came
                  in late 1956. Not 1957.

                  Apparently, I was not the only person
                  who mentioned 1957. Example:

                  A natural question one might ask about the
                  ECK Initiations is this: "If Paul Twitchell had
                  God Realization in 1957, why did the ECK
                  Master Shamus-i-Tabriz suggest that Paul
                  was not omniscient?" Isn't a God-Realized
                  person supposed to know all things?

                  [....]

                  Paul did have the experience of God Con-
                  sciousness in 1957, but it took eight full
                  years before he was ready for the mantle
                  of the Mahanta in 1965. Even then he did
                  not know all things, as the spiritually naive
                  would like to think20he did.

                  [....]

                  [Based on: Soul Travelers Of The Far Country,
                  by Harold Klemp, copyright 1987, pp. 140-141]

                  Here is another example. One that gives both
                  1956 and 1957.

                  "In late 1956 or early 1957 Paul had the experience
                  that is recorded in The Tiger's Fang. If he touched the
                  face of God in 1956, some people may wonder why it
                  took him until 1965 to become the Mahanta, the
                  Living ECK Master. [....]"

                  [Based on: Article (Touching the Face of God) @
                  http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail

                  It's only a trivial point, I know, however I think it's
                  important to establish the date for this event.

                  BTW, there is a chapter in Dialogues With The
                  Master entitled The Face of God. It is Paul's first
                  trip to the "Anami Plane" that I mentioned in that
                  earlier post (the second trip was in the chapter
                  The Sugmad Speaks. It follows The Face of God
                  chapter).

                  Interesting what a little time & research can do.
                  Now I think I see the reason for mentioning 1956
                  and not 1957 for Paul Twitchell's God-Realization
                  experience.

                  All of this brings up a question, though. Did Paul
                  write about that experience twice? Like in both the
                  manuscripts? 1956: Dialogues With The Master &
                  1957: The Tiger's Fang?

                  The journey to "Sugmad" appears in The Tiger's
                  Fang chapter entitled: The Spiritual Malignancy.
                  In it, the being reportedly speaking to Paul gives
                  four principles. In
                  Dialogues With The Master the
                  being reportedly speaking - in The Face of God
                  chapter - gives three precepts.

                  So which is the accurate record about Paul T.'s
                  so-called God-Realization experience in which he
                  reportedly meets the SUGMAD? Or, God?

                  After just reading Dialogues With The Master
                  another time, my guess would be that the first
                  mention was in the Dialogues With The Master
                  chapter entitled The Face of God.

                  BTW, I found that one Eckankar quote more
                  than a little curious.

                  "In late 1956 or early 1957 Paul had the experience
                  that is recorded in The Tiger's Fang. If he touched the
                  face of God in 1956, some people may wonder why it
                  took him until 1965 to become the Mahanta, the
                  Living ECK Master. [....]"

                  [Based on: Article (Touching the Face of God) @
                  http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail

                  Well, apparently (I would add) the experience was
                  also recorded in Dialogues With The Master.

                  My references seem to suggest that D.W.T.M.
                  manuscript was written before The Tiger's Fang.
                  Perhaps there was one basic manuscript which
                  recorded (wrote about) the experience and Paul
                  (or Eckankar) later made it into two books.

                  I'm planning to read The Tiger's Fang next, &
                  compare it with Dialogues With The Master. It
                  will take some time, but I'll get back with you
                  and maybe we can discuss what actually took
                  place.

                  Etznab


                  -----Original Message-----
                  F
                  rom: etznab@...
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 10:20 pm
                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                  "Body"


                  I would like to know the difference between
                  Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                  the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                  about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

                  The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                  a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the
                  Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                  This is something I've been contemplating
                  for some time: What is different with the two
                  types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                  about this subject).

                  There's another thing on this subject, and it
                  has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                  I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                  body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                  Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                  any of the other lower world bodies where there
                  are many different ones - including the physical
                  body.

                  So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                  Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                  only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                  Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                  Something like another dimension.

                  Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                  and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                  the Living Eck Master become so important?
                  Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                  to the Anami Lok wit
                  h Rebazar Tarzs was that
                  the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                  understanding is that the astral body is limited
                  to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                  transc
                  ends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                  to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                  Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                  it reads like that was his first visit. However, in
                  the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                  Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                  already!

                  ?????????????????????????????????????

                  A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                  Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                  to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                  D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                  T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                  getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                  Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                  Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                  the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                  only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                  quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                  Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                  Fang account and the year 1957.

                  ?????????????????????????????????????

                  I wonder, were those two different books, the
                  two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                  experience?

                  BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                  online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                  Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                  entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                  Univ
                  erse (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                  Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                  on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                  Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Examp
                  le:
                  A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                  I've decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                  books and read from the beginning, looking at
                  how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                  the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                  this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                  had escaped me up until now.

                  Etznab

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, Jun 23, 2009 12:29 am
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                  "Body"








                  Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                  is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                  chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                  or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                  his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                  of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                  meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                  Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                  with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                  than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                  Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                  (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                  of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                  teach and other "believers" experience!



                  Prometheus






                  Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



                  Hello All,

                  It was bad enough that HK sold

                  his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                  portrait. No
                  w he's selling the "True

                  Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



                  But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                  portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                  The truth has (once again) been

                  embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                  no doubt, likes this rendition because

                  it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                  this drawing looks more "sketch"

                  like than portrait like!



                  What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                  a more modern, shaved look, and

                  does not appear as thin as it really

                  is (the inside portion of his ear is

                  different too).



                  When looking at the front cover photo,

                  of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                  World of ECKankar" we can see that

                  Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                  does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                  makes Klemp look younger.



                  The question ECKists should be asking is,

                  Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                  are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                  followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                  "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                  Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                  rather than having an Astral Plane image!



                  I think it's funny that Klemp names

                  this new portrait "True Frien
                  d." Would

                  a "true friend" say such nasty and mean

                  things to you? These RESAs and other

                  H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                  Letter see Klemp as a True Friend
                  , but

                  now they see that there are strings

                  attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                  ship.



                  BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                  you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                  himself, or give it to you... free of

                  charge? Hmmmmmm.



                  On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                  make even more money from his image.

                  HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                  as though he has a big hole running

                  through his head. So, maybe HK could

                  have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                  The chain would go through his ears!

                  He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                  $500.00-800.00! And, of course, HK

                  will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                  he does with portraits, books, etc.



                  Prometheus
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Jay, Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has been discussed here, on ESA, (see the archives), and there are Links
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 25, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Jay,
                    Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
                    you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
                    been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
                    archives), and there are Links and Files,
                    also, that show and discuss many of these
                    subjects as well. However, the main focus
                    of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
                    this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
                    positioned himself to inherit it and how
                    he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
                    continue the lies, myth, and the belief
                    systems (fear and faith) that all religions
                    use. - P.

                    Jay wrote:
                    Dear Etznab
                    >
                    I my self am doing similar in studying back
                    over the shariyat's to see how much of these
                    two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
                    me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
                    But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
                    vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
                    at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
                    he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
                    Then of course there are the number of books
                    written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
                    on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
                    the story on this enigma of a man:
                    >
                    The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
                    of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                    >
                    P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
                    not actually contain "the whole truth"
                    and that much is just a rehash of his
                    previous opinions and speculations]
                    >
                    The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
                    >
                    P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
                    denounced Klemp and his own book about
                    his "Mahanta" experiences.]
                    >
                    Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                    >
                    P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
                    spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
                    who took his place]
                    >
                    The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
                    though the above books have helped move
                    on from some of his theories and material,
                    but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
                    He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
                    book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
                    just type his name in and you'll find it.
                    >
                    P: *[David started the ball rolling]
                    >
                    Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
                    to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
                    of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
                    he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
                    to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
                    on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
                    the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
                    set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
                    with others..they're quite good.
                    >
                    Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
                    of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
                    its on you tube the link is
                    >
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
                    >
                    As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
                    girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
                    apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
                    the website is
                    >
                    http://atomdoers.org/Dhunami.html
                    >
                    Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
                    of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
                    when kicked out of Eck.
                    >
                    P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
                    Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
                    >
                    Also as you may know there are a few other off
                    shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
                    actually can't remember him.. should have book
                    marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
                    he has his own line of past masters. Another
                    guy who will mail you intro material is Master
                    Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
                    >
                    I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
                    haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
                    I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
                    hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
                    far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
                    perspective of where I may be going next. What
                    really makes his insights for us all stand out are
                    two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
                    in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
                    master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
                    all the time his students said he was with them
                    on the inner planes and how they would praise
                    him for his place in their spiritual development,
                    he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
                    nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
                    students on the inner planes...I mean come on
                    how profound is this.
                    >
                    Though we are on the intellectual level only with
                    all this talk..it is basic and important though.
                    I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
                    I've practised the HU chant all this time and
                    studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
                    of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
                    i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
                    or ignored the possible science of the brain that
                    maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
                    to HK's discourses..a dear friend of mine a 3rd
                    initiate always told it was my choice, though
                    I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
                    be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
                    >
                    >
                    P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
                    under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
                    professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
                    you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
                    (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
                    do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
                    >
                    >
                    I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
                    and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
                    remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
                    >
                    Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
                    of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                    >
                    http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00174.html
                    >
                    hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
                    >
                    Jay


                    >
                    > From: etznab
                    >
                    > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                    >
                    > Prometheus,
                    >
                    > No. I haven't.
                    >
                    > The reference to number seven interests me.
                    > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                    > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                    > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                    > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                    > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                    > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                    > to speak. Examples:
                    >
                    > p. 156
                    >
                    > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                    > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                    > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                    > all!"
                    >
                    > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                    > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                    > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                    > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                    > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                    >
                    > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                    > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                    > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                    > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                    > the same book.
                    >
                    > p. 195
                    >
                    > "When I want to show the world my highest
                    > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                    > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                    > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                    > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                    > final for he represents my power in the seven
                    > lower worlds."
                    >
                    > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                    > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                    >
                    > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                    > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                    > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                    > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                    > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                    > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                    > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                    >
                    > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                    >
                    > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                    > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                    > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                    > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                    > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                    > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                    > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                    > book would mention this many and then the
                    > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                    > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                    > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                    > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                    >
                    > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                    > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                    > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                    > of the chapter:
                    >
                    > p. 197
                    >
                    > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                    > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                    > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                    > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                    > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                    >
                    > p. 199
                    >
                    > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                    > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                    > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                    > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                    > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                    >
                    > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                    > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                    > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                    > other time mentions seven spheres.
                    >
                    > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                    > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                    > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                    > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                    >
                    > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                    > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                    > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                    > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                    > a total of only seven planets.
                    >
                    > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                    > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                    > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                    > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                    > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                    > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                    > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                    > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                    > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                    > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                    > was already known to history? How much was in
                    > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                    > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                    > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                    > how much of the material had actually come direct
                    > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                    > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                    >
                    > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                    > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                    > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                    > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                    >
                    > Etznab
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello Etznab,
                    >
                    > You make some good points and have
                    >
                    > brought up more information to point
                    >
                    > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                    >
                    > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                    >
                    > and D.W.T.M. later.
                    >
                    >
                    > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                    >
                    > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                    >
                    > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                    >
                    > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                    >
                    > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                    >
                    > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                    >
                    > overlook this point. And, look at how
                    >
                    > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                    >
                    > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                    >
                    > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                    >
                    > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
                    >
                    > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                    >
                    > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                    >
                    >
                    > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                    >
                    > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                    >
                    > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                    >
                    > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                    >
                    > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                    >
                    > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                    >
                    > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                    >
                    > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                    >
                    > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                    >
                    > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                    >
                    > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                    >
                    > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                    >
                    > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                    >
                    > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                    >
                    > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                    >
                    > Plane!
                    >
                    > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                    >
                    > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                    >
                    > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                    >
                    > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                    >
                    > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                    >
                    > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                    >
                  • Jason Mc Dermott
                    Hi Prometheus Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y know somewhere to
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Prometheus

                      Gottya..;) all good.. I just figured Etznab may have needed a bit of help..rather than trawling through all this stuff!! y'know somewhere to start..interesting line of inquiry though. Also thanks for the detail on becoming a 5th initiate I never really looked into it though. The sites great with all the files you've put up..great help.

                      Thanks again

                      Jay




                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 5:02:45
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Continues the Religious Fraud

                      Hello Jay,
                      Thanks for the post. BTW- Much of what
                      you have mentioned, topic wise etc. has
                      been discussed here, on ESA, (see the
                      archives), and there are Links and Files,
                      also, that show and discuss many of these
                      subjects as well. However, the main focus
                      of ESA is to present the real TRUTH behind
                      this long-going scam by showing how Klemp
                      positioned himself to inherit it and how
                      he continues to use Twit's Shariyats to
                      continue the lies, myth, and the belief
                      systems (fear and faith) that all religions
                      use. - P.

                      Jay wrote:
                      Dear Etznab

                      >
                      I my self am doing similar in studying back
                      over the shariyat's to see how much of these
                      two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving
                      me a starting point in finding Twitchell's sources.
                      But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the
                      vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new
                      at this stage,everyone but those in denial know
                      he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever.
                      Then of course there are the number of books
                      written on twitchell and if you can get your hands
                      on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of
                      the story on this enigma of a man:
                      >
                      The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy
                      of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                      >
                      P: *[FYI-Marman admits his book does
                      not actually contain "the whole truth"
                      and that much is just a rehash of his
                      previous opinions and speculations]
                      >
                      The Rosetta Stone of God by James Davis
                      >
                      P: [James Davis, is a former EKist who has
                      denounced Klemp and his own book about
                      his "Mahanta" experiences. ]
                      >
                      Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                      >
                      P: [Ford is a former RESA, 7th initiate, and
                      spokesperson for ECKankar just like those
                      who took his place]
                      >
                      The ever noctorious David Lane also, maybe
                      though the above books have helped move
                      on from some of his theories and material,
                      but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.
                      He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous
                      book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,
                      just type his name in and you'll find it.
                      >
                      P: *[David started the ball rolling]
                      >
                      Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting
                      to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews
                      of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe
                      he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists
                      to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back
                      on focus for one's connection with God.You can join
                      the Higher Consciousness Society website he has
                      set up for free and down load some audio's of talks
                      with others..they' re quite good.
                      >
                      Also this may be worth checking out,this was one
                      of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck,
                      its on you tube the link is
                      >
                      http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego& feature=related
                      >
                      As you'll come to realize, if you visit her site the
                      girl in it is married to an another 'eck master'
                      apparently based on Twitchells original teachings.
                      the website is
                      >
                      http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html
                      >
                      Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed
                      of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established
                      when kicked out of Eck.
                      >
                      P: [They renamed their splinter group (sect) because
                      Gross didn't name a successor to his ATOM group]
                      >
                      Also as you may know there are a few other off
                      shoots claiming to be the Godman, even one..
                      actually can't remember him.. should have book
                      marked his site on my discoverys, but anyway..
                      he has his own line of past masters. Another
                      guy who will mail you intro material is Master
                      Path by Sri Gary Olsen.
                      >
                      I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage, I myself
                      haven't the cash to purchase any of the books
                      I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my
                      hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so
                      far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good
                      perspective of where I may be going next. What
                      really makes his insights for us all stand out are
                      two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2
                      in connection with this is the Indian spiritual
                      master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that
                      all the time his students said he was with them
                      on the inner planes and how they would praise
                      him for his place in their spiritual development,
                      he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it
                      nor did he have any knowledge of being with the
                      students on the inner planes...I mean come on
                      how profound is this.
                      >
                      Though we are on the intellectual level only with
                      all this talk..it is basic and important though.
                      I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old.
                      I've practised the HU chant all this time and
                      studied my dreams hard as well as the practice
                      of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced
                      i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied
                      or ignored the possible science of the brain that
                      maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed
                      to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd
                      initiate always told it was my choice, though
                      I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should
                      be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.
                      >
                      >
                      P: [Actually, Jay, it takes about 18 years,
                      under Klemp, to become a 5th, unless, you're a
                      professional and then it might be 15 years. However,
                      you, still, have to read his books and take trainings
                      (become an Arahata) and be in and teach Satsangs,
                      do intros, book discussions, etc., etc.]
                      >
                      >
                      I am now at a period of intense reading, discovering
                      and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the
                      remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)
                      >
                      Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort
                      of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                      >
                      http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html
                      >
                      hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon
                      >
                      Jay


                      >
                      > From: etznab
                      >
                      > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                      >
                      > Prometheus,
                      >
                      > No. I haven't.
                      >
                      > The reference to number seven interests me.
                      > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                      > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                      > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                      > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                      > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                      > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                      > to speak. Examples:
                      >
                      > p. 156
                      >
                      > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                      > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                      > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                      > all!"
                      >
                      > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                      > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                      > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                      > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                      > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                      >
                      > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                      > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                      > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                      > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                      > the same book.
                      >
                      > p. 195
                      >
                      > "When I want to show the world my highest
                      > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                      > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                      > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                      > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                      > final for he represents my power in the seven
                      > lower worlds."
                      >
                      > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                      > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                      >
                      > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                      > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                      > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                      > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                      > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                      > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                      > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                      >
                      > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                      >
                      > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                      > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                      > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                      > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                      > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                      > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                      > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                      > book would mention this many and then the
                      > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                      > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                      > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                      > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                      >
                      > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                      > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                      > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                      > of the chapter:
                      >
                      > p. 197
                      >
                      > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                      > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                      > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                      > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                      > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                      >
                      > p. 199
                      >
                      > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                      > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                      > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                      > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                      > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                      >
                      > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                      > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                      > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                      > other time mentions seven spheres.
                      >
                      > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                      > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                      > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                      > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                      >
                      > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                      > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                      > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                      > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                      > a total of only seven planets.
                      >
                      > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                      > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                      > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                      > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                      > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                      > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                      > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                      > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                      > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                      > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                      > was already known to history? How much was in
                      > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                      > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                      > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                      > how much of the material had actually come direct
                      > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                      > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                      >
                      > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                      > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                      > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                      > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello Etznab,
                      >
                      > You make some good points and have
                      >
                      > brought up more information to point
                      >
                      > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                      >
                      > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                      >
                      > and D.W.T.M. later.
                      >
                      >
                      > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                      >
                      > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                      >
                      > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                      >
                      > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                      >
                      > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                      >
                      > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                      >
                      > overlook this point. And, look at how
                      >
                      > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                      >
                      > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                      >
                      > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                      >
                      > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)
                      >
                      > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                      >
                      > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                      >
                      >
                      > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                      >
                      > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                      >
                      > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                      >
                      > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                      >
                      > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                      >
                      > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                      >
                      > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                      >
                      > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                      >
                      > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                      >
                      > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                      >
                      > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                      >
                      > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                      >
                      > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                      >
                      > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                      >
                      > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                      >
                      > Plane!
                      >
                      > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                      >
                      > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                      >
                      > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                      >
                      > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                      >
                      > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                      >
                      > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                      >


                      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                    • Jason Mc Dermott
                      Dear Etznab Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I ve just come
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Etznab

                         Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,its a fictional piece based on the well known metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson features it as part of his hypothesis as us having multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher Consciousness Society website. You'll find them by clicking on the classes button and then the audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to them in order as not to get confused of what's being discussed and explained by Johnson,the particular section of Over soul seven and Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                        g'luk

                        Jay


                        From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 15:03:04
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                        Dear Etznab

                        I my self am doing similar in studying back over the shariyat's to see how much of these two 'sacred books' is plagarised aswell as giving me a starting point in finding  Twitchell's sources. But just a tip.. there are websites dedicated to the vast plagarisms Twitchell made..it's nothing new at this stage,everyone but those in denial know he is perhaps one of the biggest plagarists ever. Then of course there are the number of books written on twitchell and if you can get your hands on copies I'm sure will give you both sides of the story on this enigma of a man: The Whole Truth The spiritual Legacy of Paul Twitchell by Doug Marman
                                   The Rosetta stone of God by James Davis
                                    Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson
                        The ever noctorious David Lane also ,maybe though the above books have helped move on from some of his theories and material,but his stuff isn't bad to help start some where.He has a site with all the chapters of his infamous book on Eck and Twitchell available on his site,just type his name in and you'll find it.

                        Even Ford Johnson is being attacked as wanting to start a new cult (just look at some of the reviews of his book on Amazon), though I honestly believe he has good intentions of giving a place for ex-eckists to go in a sense to regroup energies and get back on focus for one's connection with God. You can join the Higher Consciousness Society website he has set up for free and down load some audio's of talks with others..they' re quite good.

                        Also this may be worth checking out,this was one of the first things I seen when I began to doubt eck, its on you tube the link is http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=65ytB-U5ego&feature=related
                        As you'll come to realise,if you visit her site the girl in it is married to an another 'eck master' apparently based on Twitchells original teachings. the website is http://atomdoers. org/Dhunami. html Dhunami is the name these guys have renamed of Darwin Gross's ATOM teachings he established when kicked out of Eck.

                         Also as you may know there are a few other off shoots claiming to be the Godman,even one..actually can't remember him.. should have book marked his site on my discoverys,but anyway..he has his own line of past masters. Another guy who will mail you intro material is Master Path by Sri Gary Olsen.

                        I tell ya I'm sick of it all at this stage,I myself haven't the cash to purchase any of the books I've listed above but can't wait soon to get my hands on'em. I think from what I can judge so far Johnson's audio talks have given me a good perspective of where I may be going next. What really makes his insights for us all stand out are two things; 1 He explains the fact of belief and 2 in connection with this is  the Indian spiritual master Baba Faqir Chand who confessed that all the time his students said he was with them on the inner planes and how they would praise him for his place in their spiritual development, he simply said he wasn't the one doing any of it nor  did he have any knowledge of being with the students on the inner planes...I mean come on how profound is this.

                        Though we are on the intellectual level only with all this talk..it is basic and important though. I myself have known of eck since 15 yrs old. I've practised the HU chant all this time and studied my dreams hard as well as the practice of the Golden tongue of wisdom. I'm convinced i've felt the love of God..though haven't denied or ignored the possible science of the brain that maybe behind it all. Though I never subscribed to HK's discourses.. a dear friend of mine a 3rd initiate always told it was my choice,though I never felt advanced enough..lol! if I did I should be probably be a 5th initiate by now!!! i'm 25.

                        I am now at a period of intense reading,discovering and deciding what shall be my spiritual life for the remainder of my time on this good earth.. :)

                        Oh.. one last web link I've come across..a sort of spiritual movement index,pretty useful.
                        http://www.novelgui de.com/a/ discover/ ear_01/ear_ 01_00174. html

                        hope this has been a help and maybe talk to you soon

                        Jay




                        From: "etznab@aol. com" <etznab@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 4:04:59
                        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                        Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                        Prometheus,

                        No. I haven't.

                        The reference to number seven interests me.
                        Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                        mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                        Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                        me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                        the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                        them all. Like, something on another level, so
                        to speak. Examples:

                        p. 156

                        "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                        of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                        of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                        all!"

                        [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                        during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                        not sure. That quote is on the second page
                        of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                        Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                        For some reason, I'm under the impression
                        that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                        a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                        8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                        the same book.

                        p. 195

                        "When I want to show the world my highest
                        grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                        This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                        sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                        is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                        final for he represents my power in the seven
                        lower worlds."

                        [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                        I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                        Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                        my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                        spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                        SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                        have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                        story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                        Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                        ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                        I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                        Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                        (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                        (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                        Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                        I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                        planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                        book would mention this many and then the
                        1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                        a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                        haste, and will have to go back & check the
                        names of the planes for accuracy.)

                        In the next chapter following that one (THE
                        SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                        go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                        of the chapter:

                        p. 197

                        Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                        you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                        into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                        of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                        you will then know for yourself. [....]

                        p. 199

                        "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                        speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                        among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                        serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                        creations throughout the seven spheres."

                        Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                        by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                        once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                        other time mentions seven spheres.

                        It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                        the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                        etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                        place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                        I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                        Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                        be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                        during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                        a total of only seven planets.

                        As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                        starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                        notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                        when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                        and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                        1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                        take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                        the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                        (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                        materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                        was already known to history? How much was in
                        the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                        How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                        How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                        how much of the material had actually come direct
                        from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                        (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                        This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                        so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                        history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                        other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                        Etznab

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                        Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                        "Body"

                        Hello Etznab,

                        You make some good points and have

                        brought up more information to point

                        out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                        I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                        and D.W.T.M. later.

                        It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                        Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                        Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                        Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                        their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                        "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                        overlook this point. And, look at how

                        many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                        to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                        singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                        is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                        D

                        Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                        under Klemp's rule(s)!

                        BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                        actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                        is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                        Over-Soul and that these Souls need to

                        become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                        or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                        being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                        becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                        by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                        "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                        on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                        you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                        Prometheus

                        p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                        LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                        where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                        resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                        Plane!

                        Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                        thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                        Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                        with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                        Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                        [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                        Etznab wrote:

                        I would like to know the difference between

                        Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                        the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                        about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.

                        The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                        a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                        D

                        Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                        This is something I've been contemplating

                        for some time: What is different with the two

                        types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                        about this subject).

                        There's another thing on this subject, and it

                        has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                        I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                        body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                        Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                        any of the other lower world bodies where there

                        are many different ones - including the physical

                        body.

                        So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                        Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                        only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                        Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                        Something like another dimension.

                        Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                        and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                        the Living Eck Master become so important?

                        Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                        to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                        the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                        understanding is that the astral body is limited

                        to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                        transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                        to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                        Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                        it reads like that was his first vis
                        it. However, in

                        the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                        Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                        already!

                        ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                        A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                        Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                        to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                        D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                        T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                        getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                        Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                        Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                        the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not

                        only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                        quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                        Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                        Fang account and the year 1957.

                        ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                        I wonder, were those two different books, the

                        two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                        experience?

                        BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                        online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                        Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                        entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                        Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                        Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                        on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                        Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                        A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                        I've
                        decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                        books and read from the beginning, looking at

                        how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                        the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                        this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                        had escaped me up until now.

                        Etznab

                        HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                        Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                        is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                        chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                        or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                        his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                        of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                        meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                        Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                        with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                        than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                        Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                        (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                        of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                        teach and other "believers" experience!

                        Prometheus

                        Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                        Hello All,

                        It was bad enough that HK sold

                        his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                        portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                        Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                        0D

                        But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                        portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                        The truth has (once again) been

                        embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                        no doubt, likes this rendition because

                        it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                        this drawing looks more "sketch"

                        like than portrait like!

                        What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                        a more modern, shaved look, and

                        does not appear as thin as it really

                        is (the inside portion of his ear is

                        different too).

                        When looking at the front cover photo,

                        of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                        World of ECKankar" we can see that

                        Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                        does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                        makes Klemp look younger.

                        The question ECKists should be asking is,

                        Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                        are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                        followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                        "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                        Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                        rather than having an Astral Plane image!

                        I think it's funny that Klemp names

                        this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                        a "true friend" say such nasty
                        and mean

                        things to you? These RESAs and other

                        H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                        Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                        now they see that there are strings

                        attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                        ship.

                        BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                        you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                        himself, or give it to you... free of

                        charge? Hmmmmmm.

                        On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                        make even more money from his image.

                        HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                        as though he has a big hole running

                        through his head. So, maybe HK could

                        have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                        The chain would go through his ears!

                        He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                        $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                        will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                        he does with portraits, books, etc.

                        Prometheus


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                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Jay, Etznab, and All, Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it s fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that this is
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                          Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                          fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                          that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                          this is similar to beating a dead horse
                          when sorting out the truth from all the
                          crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                          distracted from the current, now, happenings
                          under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                          Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                          He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                          the hook via his distractions involving
                          Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                          avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                          PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                          the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                          in order to confuse the issue.

                          Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                          but became more and more insane over
                          time. And, look at those "creative" people
                          in business who have scammed thousands
                          of individuals out of their life savings! They
                          even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                          foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                          Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                          expected from a person who paid to be
                          included in "The International Who's Who
                          of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                          why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                          "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                          themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                          Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                          redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                          historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                          EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                          with their current views of society and how
                          it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                          are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                          Masters?

                          BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                          a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                          a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                          actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                          truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                          much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                          Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                          "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                          that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                          as well!

                          As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                          it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                          With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                          said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                          or any other EK Master!

                          FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                          This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                          "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                          the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                          the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                          about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                          to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                          looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                          happens because asking too many questions shows
                          spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                          in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                          comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                          answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                          the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                          This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                          works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                          or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                          within the Satsang Society.

                          Prometheus

                          Jay wrote:

                          Dear Etznab

                          Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                          its a fictional piece based on the well known
                          metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                          I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                          features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                          multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                          in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                          Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                          by clicking on the classes button and then the
                          audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                          them in order as not to get confused of what's
                          being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                          the particular section of Over soul seven and
                          Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                          g'luk

                          Jay

                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                          >
                          >

                          Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                          >
                          Etznab,
                          Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                          >
                          Prometheus,

                          Etznab wrote:
                          > No. I haven't.
                          >
                          > The reference to number seven interests me.
                          > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                          > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                          > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                          > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                          > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                          > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                          > to speak. Examples:
                          >
                          > p. 156
                          >
                          > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                          > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                          > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                          > all!"
                          >
                          > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                          > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                          > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                          > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                          > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                          >
                          > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                          > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                          > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                          > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                          > the same book.
                          >
                          > p. 195
                          >
                          > "When I want to show the world my highest
                          > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                          > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                          > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                          > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                          > final for he represents my power in the seven
                          > lower worlds."
                          >
                          > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                          > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                          >
                          > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                          > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                          > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                          > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                          > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                          > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                          > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                          >
                          > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                          >
                          > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                          > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                          > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                          > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                          > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                          > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                          > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                          > book would mention this many and then the
                          > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                          > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                          > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                          > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                          >
                          > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                          > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                          > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                          > of the chapter:
                          >
                          > p. 197
                          >
                          > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                          > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                          > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                          > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                          > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                          >
                          > p. 199
                          >
                          > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                          > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                          > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                          > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                          > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                          >
                          > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                          > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                          > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                          > other time mentions seven spheres.
                          >
                          > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                          > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                          > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                          > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                          >
                          > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                          > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                          > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                          > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                          > a total of only seven planets.
                          >
                          > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                          > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                          > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                          > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                          > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                          > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                          > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                          > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                          > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                          > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                          > was already known to history? How much was in
                          > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                          > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                          > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                          > how much of the material had actually come direct
                          > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                          > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                          >
                          > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                          > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                          > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                          > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                          > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                          > "Body"
                          >
                          > Hello Etznab,
                          >
                          > You make some good points and have
                          >
                          > brought up more information to point
                          >
                          > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                          >
                          > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                          >
                          > and D.W.T.M. later.
                          >
                          > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                          >
                          > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                          >
                          > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                          >
                          > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                          >
                          > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                          >
                          > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                          >
                          > overlook this point. And, look at how
                          >
                          > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                          >
                          > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                          >
                          > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                          >
                          > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                          > D
                          >
                          > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                          >
                          > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                          >
                          > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                          >
                          > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                          >
                          > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                          >
                          > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                          >
                          > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                          >
                          > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                          >
                          > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                          >
                          > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                          >
                          > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                          >
                          > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                          >
                          > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                          >
                          > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                          >
                          > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                          >
                          > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                          >
                          > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                          >
                          > Plane!
                          >
                          > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                          >
                          > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                          >
                          > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                          >
                          > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                          >
                          > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                          >
                          > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                          >
                          > Etznab wrote:
                          >
                          > I would like to know the difference between
                          >
                          > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                          >
                          > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                          >
                          > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                          >
                          > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                          >
                          > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                          > D
                          >
                          > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                          >
                          > This is something I've been contemplating
                          >
                          > for some time: What is different with the two
                          >
                          > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                          >
                          > about this subject).
                          >
                          > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                          >
                          > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                          >
                          > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                          >
                          > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                          >
                          > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                          >
                          > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                          >
                          > are many different ones - including the physical
                          >
                          > body.
                          >
                          > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                          >
                          > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                          >
                          > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                          >
                          > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                          >
                          > Something like another dimension.
                          >
                          > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                          >
                          > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                          >
                          > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                          >
                          > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                          >
                          > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                          >
                          > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                          >
                          > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                          >
                          > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                          >
                          > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                          >
                          > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                          >
                          > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                          >
                          > it reads like that was his first vis
                          > it. However, in
                          >
                          > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                          >
                          > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                          >
                          > already!
                          >
                          > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                          >
                          > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                          >
                          > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                          >
                          > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                          >
                          > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                          >
                          > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                          >
                          > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                          >
                          > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                          >
                          > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                          >
                          > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                          >
                          > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                          >
                          > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                          >
                          > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                          >
                          > Fang account and the year 1957.
                          >
                          > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                          >
                          > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                          >
                          > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                          >
                          > experience?
                          >
                          > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                          >
                          > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                          >
                          > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                          >
                          > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                          >
                          > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                          >
                          > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                          >
                          > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                          >
                          > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                          >
                          > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                          >
                          > I've
                          > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                          >
                          > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                          >
                          > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                          >
                          > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                          >
                          > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                          >
                          > had escaped me up until now.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                          > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                          >
                          > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                          >
                          > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                          >
                          > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                          >
                          > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                          >
                          > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                          >
                          > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                          >
                          > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                          >
                          > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                          >
                          > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                          >
                          > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                          >
                          > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                          >
                          > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                          >
                          > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                          >
                          > teach and other "believers" experience!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          >
                          > It was bad enough that HK sold
                          >
                          > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                          >
                          > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                          >
                          > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                          > 0D
                          >
                          > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                          >
                          > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                          >
                          > The truth has (once again) been
                          >
                          > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                          >
                          > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                          >
                          > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                          >
                          > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                          >
                          > like than portrait like!
                          >
                          > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                          >
                          > a more modern, shaved look, and
                          >
                          > does not appear as thin as it really
                          >
                          > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                          >
                          > different too).
                          >
                          > When looking at the front cover photo,
                          >
                          > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                          >
                          > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                          >
                          > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                          >
                          > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                          >
                          > makes Klemp look younger.
                          >
                          > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                          >
                          > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                          >
                          > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                          >
                          > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                          >
                          > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                          >
                          > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                          >
                          > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                          >
                          > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                          >
                          > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                          >
                          > a "true friend" say such nasty
                          > and mean
                          >
                          > things to you? These RESAs and other
                          >
                          > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                          >
                          > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                          >
                          > now they see that there are strings
                          >
                          > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                          >
                          > ship.
                          >
                          > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                          >
                          > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                          >
                          > himself, or give it to you... free of
                          >
                          > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                          >
                          > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                          >
                          > make even more money from his image.
                          >
                          > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                          >
                          > as though he has a big hole running
                          >
                          > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                          >
                          > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                          >
                          > The chain would go through his ears!
                          >
                          > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                          >
                          > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                          >
                          > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                          >
                          > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                          >
                          >
                          > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                          >
                        • Jason Mc Dermott
                          Hi Prometheus Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT s or HK s stuff being that
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 26, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Prometheus

                            Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.

                            Jay


                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                            Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                            Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                            fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                            that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                            this is similar to beating a dead horse
                            when sorting out the truth from all the
                            crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                            distracted from the current, now, happenings
                            under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                            Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                            He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                            the hook via his distractions involving
                            Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                            avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                            PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                            the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                            in order to confuse the issue.

                            Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                            but became more and more insane over
                            time. And, look at those "creative" people
                            in business who have scammed thousands
                            of individuals out of their life savings! They
                            even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                            foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                            Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                            expected from a person who paid to be
                            included in "The International Who's Who
                            of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                            why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                            "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                            themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                            Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                            redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                            historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                            EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                            with their current views of society and how
                            it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                            are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                            Masters?

                            BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                            a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                            a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                            actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                            truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                            much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                            Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                            "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                            that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                            as well!

                            As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                            it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                            With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                            said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                            or any other EK Master!

                            FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                            This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                            "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                            the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                            the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                            about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                            to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                            looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                            happens because asking too many questions shows
                            spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                            in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                            comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                            answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                            the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                            This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                            works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                            or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                            within the Satsang Society.

                            Prometheus

                            Jay wrote:

                            Dear Etznab

                            Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                            its a fictional piece based on the well known
                            metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                            I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                            features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                            multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                            in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                            Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                            by clicking on the classes button and then the
                            audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                            them in order as not to get confused of what's
                            being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                            the particular section of Over soul seven and
                            Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                            g'luk

                            Jay

                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ____________ _________ _________ __
                            > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>

                            >
                            >

                            Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                            >
                            Etznab,
                            Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                            >
                            Prometheus,

                            Etznab wrote:
                            > No. I haven't.
                            >
                            > The reference to number seven interests me.
                            > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                            > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                            > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                            > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                            > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                            > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                            > to speak. Examples:
                            >
                            > p. 156
                            >
                            > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                            > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                            > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                            > all!"
                            >
                            > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                            > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                            > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                            > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                            > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                            >
                            > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                            > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                            > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                            > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                            > the same book.
                            >
                            > p. 195
                            >
                            > "When I want to show the world my highest
                            > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                            > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                            > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                            > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                            > final for he represents my power in the seven
                            > lower worlds."
                            >
                            > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                            > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                            >
                            > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                            > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                            > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                            > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                            > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                            > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                            > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                            >
                            > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                            >
                            > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                            > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                            > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                            > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                            > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                            > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                            > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                            > book would mention this many and then the
                            > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                            > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                            > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                            > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                            >
                            > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                            > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                            > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                            > of the chapter:
                            >
                            > p. 197
                            >
                            > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                            > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                            > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                            > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                            > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                            >
                            > p. 199
                            >
                            > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                            > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                            > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                            > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                            > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                            >
                            > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                            > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                            > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                            > other time mentions seven spheres.
                            >
                            > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                            > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                            > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                            > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                            >
                            > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                            > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                            > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                            > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                            > a total of only seven planets.
                            >
                            > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                            > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                            > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                            > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                            > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                            > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                            > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                            > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                            > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                            > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                            > was already known to history? How much was in
                            > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                            > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                            > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                            > how much of the material had actually come direct
                            > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                            > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                            >
                            > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                            > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                            > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                            > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                            >
                            > Etznab
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                            > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                            > "Body"
                            >
                            > Hello Etznab,
                            >
                            > You make some good points and have
                            >
                            > brought up more information to point
                            >
                            > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                            >
                            > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                            >
                            > and D.W.T.M. later.
                            >
                            > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                            >
                            > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                            >
                            > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                            >
                            > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                            >
                            > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                            >
                            > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                            >
                            > overlook this point. And, look at how
                            >
                            > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                            >
                            > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                            >
                            > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                            >
                            > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                            > D
                            >
                            > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                            >
                            > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                            >
                            > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                            >
                            > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                            >
                            > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                            >
                            > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                            >
                            > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                            >
                            > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                            >
                            > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                            >
                            > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                            >
                            > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                            >
                            > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                            >
                            > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                            >
                            > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                            >
                            > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                            >
                            > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                            >
                            > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                            >
                            > Plane!
                            >
                            > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                            >
                            > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                            >
                            > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                            >
                            > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                            >
                            > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                            >
                            > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                            >
                            > Etznab wrote:
                            >
                            > I would like to know the difference between
                            >
                            > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                            >
                            > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                            >
                            > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                            >
                            > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                            >
                            > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                            > D
                            >
                            > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                            >
                            > This is something I've been contemplating
                            >
                            > for some time: What is different with the two
                            >
                            > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                            >
                            > about this subject).
                            >
                            > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                            >
                            > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                            >
                            > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                            >
                            > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                            >
                            > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                            >
                            > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                            >
                            > are many different ones - including the physical
                            >
                            > body.
                            >
                            > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                            >
                            > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                            >
                            > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                            >
                            > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                            >
                            > Something like another dimension.
                            >
                            > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                            >
                            > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                            >
                            > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                            >
                            > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                            >
                            > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                            >
                            > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                            >
                            > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                            >
                            > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                            >
                            > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                            >
                            > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                            >
                            > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                            >
                            > it reads like that was his first vis
                            > it. However, in
                            >
                            > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                            >
                            > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                            >
                            > already!
                            >
                            > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                            >
                            > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                            >
                            > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                            >
                            > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                            >
                            > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                            >
                            > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                            >
                            > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                            >
                            > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                            >
                            > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                            >
                            > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                            >
                            > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                            >
                            > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                            >
                            > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                            >
                            > Fang account and the year 1957.
                            >
                            > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                            >
                            > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                            >
                            > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                            >
                            > experience?
                            >
                            > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                            >
                            > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                            >
                            > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                            >
                            > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                            >
                            > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                            >
                            > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                            >
                            > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                            >
                            > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                            >
                            > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                            >
                            > I've
                            > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                            >
                            > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                            >
                            > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                            >
                            > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                            >
                            > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                            >
                            > had escaped me up until now.
                            >
                            > Etznab
                            >
                            > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                            >
                            > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                            >
                            > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                            >
                            > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                            >
                            > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                            >
                            > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                            >
                            > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                            >
                            > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                            >
                            > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                            >
                            > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                            >
                            > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                            >
                            > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                            >
                            > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                            >
                            > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                            >
                            > teach and other "believers" experience!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                            >
                            > Hello All,
                            >
                            > It was bad enough that HK sold
                            >
                            > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                            >
                            > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                            >
                            > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                            > 0D
                            >
                            > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                            >
                            > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                            >
                            > The truth has (once again) been
                            >
                            > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                            >
                            > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                            >
                            > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                            >
                            > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                            >
                            > like than portrait like!
                            >
                            > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                            >
                            > a more modern, shaved look, and
                            >
                            > does not appear as thin as it really
                            >
                            > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                            >
                            > different too).
                            >
                            > When looking at the front cover photo,
                            >
                            > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                            >
                            > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                            >
                            > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                            >
                            > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                            >
                            > makes Klemp look younger.
                            >
                            > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                            >
                            > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                            >
                            > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                            >
                            > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                            >
                            > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                            >
                            > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                            >
                            > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                            >
                            > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                            >
                            > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                            >
                            > a "true friend" say such nasty
                            > and mean
                            >
                            > things to you? These RESAs and other
                            >
                            > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                            >
                            > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                            >
                            > now they see that there are strings
                            >
                            > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                            >
                            > ship.
                            >
                            > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                            >
                            > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                            >
                            > himself, or give it to you... free of
                            >
                            > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                            >
                            > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                            >
                            > make even more money from his image.
                            >
                            > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                            >
                            > as though he has a big hole running
                            >
                            > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                            >
                            > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                            >
                            > The chain would go through his ears!
                            >
                            > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                            >
                            > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                            >
                            > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                            >
                            > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                            >
                            >
                            > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                            >


                            Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                          • noneckster
                            RESPONDING TO THE THREAD: I think it s worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              RESPONDING TO THE THREAD:

                              I think it's worth studying history to compare what Klemp is doing now and why, and to show what KRAP is in eckankar at the very core. To reread eck books hoping to get some wisdom is foolish imo. It's like drinking Koolaide that tastes like a sugary drink, but may be tainted with poison. : ) Current eckists are just willfully ignorant. There really isn't much of an excuse for their behavior, at this point. If Iranians can communicate and find out information via the internet and cell phone, then access in other Democracies around the world is a click away. Those practicing eckist of today are simply CHOOSING to not know all the facts.

                              Before the internet I could understand how it was easier to get duped, conned. The past is the past, for sure, but to not know the past, of course, is to increase the likelihood of repeating it. The study of bad cultic and religious practices is a very important activity IMO.

                              Non eckster ; )

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Prometheus
                              >
                              > Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the present.
                              >
                              > Jay
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                              > Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                              > fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                              > that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                              > this is similar to beating a dead horse
                              > when sorting out the truth from all the
                              > crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                              > distracted from the current, now, happenings
                              > under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.
                              >
                              > Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                              > He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                              > the hook via his distractions involving
                              > Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                              > avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                              > PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                              > the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                              > in order to confuse the issue.
                              >
                              > Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                              > but became more and more insane over
                              > time. And, look at those "creative" people
                              > in business who have scammed thousands
                              > of individuals out of their life savings! They
                              > even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                              > foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                              > Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                              > expected from a person who paid to be
                              > included in "The International Who's Who
                              > of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                              > why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                              > "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                              > themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                              > Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                              > redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                              > historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                              > EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                              > with their current views of society and how
                              > it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                              > are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                              > Masters?
                              >
                              > BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                              > a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                              > a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                              > actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                              > truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                              > much closer to Fiction than to "truth."
                              >
                              > Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                              > "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                              > that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                              > as well!
                              >
                              > As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                              > it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                              > With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                              > said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                              > or any other EK Master!
                              >
                              > FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                              > This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                              > "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                              > the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                              > the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                              > about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                              > to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                              > looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                              > happens because asking too many questions shows
                              > spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                              > in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                              > comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                              > answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                              > the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                              > This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                              > works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                              > or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                              > within the Satsang Society.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              > Jay wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Etznab
                              >
                              > Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                              > its a fictional piece based on the well known
                              > metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                              > I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                              > features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                              > multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                              > in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                              > Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                              > by clicking on the classes button and then the
                              > audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                              > them in order as not to get confused of what's
                              > being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                              > the particular section of Over soul seven and
                              > Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.
                              >
                              > g'luk
                              >
                              > Jay
                              >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                              > > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>
                              >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                              > >
                              > Etznab,
                              > Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                              > >
                              > Prometheus,
                              >
                              > Etznab wrote:
                              > > No. I haven't.
                              > >
                              > > The reference to number seven interests me.
                              > > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                              > > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                              > > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                              > > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                              > > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                              > > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                              > > to speak. Examples:
                              > >
                              > > p. 156
                              > >
                              > > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                              > > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                              > > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                              > > all!"
                              > >
                              > > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                              > > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                              > > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                              > > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                              > > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                              > >
                              > > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                              > > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                              > > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                              > > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                              > > the same book.
                              > >
                              > > p. 195
                              > >
                              > > "When I want to show the world my highest
                              > > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                              > > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                              > > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                              > > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                              > > final for he represents my power in the seven
                              > > lower worlds."
                              > >
                              > > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                              > > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                              > >
                              > > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                              > > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                              > > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                              > > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                              > > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                              > > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                              > > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                              > >
                              > > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                              > >
                              > > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                              > > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                              > > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                              > > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                              > > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                              > > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                              > > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                              > > book would mention this many and then the
                              > > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                              > > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                              > > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                              > > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                              > >
                              > > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                              > > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                              > > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                              > > of the chapter:
                              > >
                              > > p. 197
                              > >
                              > > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                              > > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                              > > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                              > > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                              > > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                              > >
                              > > p. 199
                              > >
                              > > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                              > > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                              > > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                              > > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                              > > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                              > >
                              > > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                              > > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                              > > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                              > > other time mentions seven spheres.
                              > >
                              > > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                              > > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                              > > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                              > > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                              > >
                              > > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                              > > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                              > > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                              > > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                              > > a total of only seven planets.
                              > >
                              > > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                              > > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                              > > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                              > > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                              > > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                              > > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                              > > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                              > > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                              > > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                              > > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                              > > was already known to history? How much was in
                              > > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                              > > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                              > > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                              > > how much of the material had actually come direct
                              > > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                              > > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                              > >
                              > > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                              > > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                              > > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                              > > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                              > >
                              > > Etznab
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                              > > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 2009 1:41 pm
                              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                              > > "Body"
                              > >
                              > > Hello Etznab,
                              > >
                              > > You make some good points and have
                              > >
                              > > brought up more information to point
                              > >
                              > > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.
                              > >
                              > > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"
                              > >
                              > > and D.W.T.M. later.
                              > >
                              > > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra
                              > >
                              > > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;
                              > >
                              > > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th
                              > >
                              > > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"
                              > >
                              > > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral
                              > >
                              > > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to
                              > >
                              > > overlook this point. And, look at how
                              > >
                              > > many years Klemp has instructed EKists
                              > >
                              > > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/
                              > >
                              > > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra
                              > >
                              > > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0
                              > > D
                              > >
                              > > Chakra is still being used after 28 years
                              > >
                              > > under Klemp's rule(s)!
                              > >
                              > > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is
                              > >
                              > > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There
                              > >
                              > > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an
                              > >
                              > > Over-Soul and that these Souls need to
                              > >
                              > > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)
                              > >
                              > > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/
                              > >
                              > > being that same Over-Soul which, then,
                              > >
                              > > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can
                              > >
                              > > by-pass the hierarchy and can become
                              > >
                              > > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,
                              > >
                              > > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have
                              > >
                              > > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI
                              > >
                              > > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is
                              > >
                              > > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"
                              > >
                              > > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th
                              > >
                              > > Plane!
                              > >
                              > > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"
                              > >
                              > > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,
                              > >
                              > > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect
                              > >
                              > > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"
                              > >
                              > > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"
                              > >
                              > > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]
                              > >
                              > > Etznab wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I would like to know the difference between
                              > >
                              > > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,
                              > >
                              > > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something
                              > >
                              > > about the inner form of the Living Eck Master.
                              > >
                              > > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called
                              > >
                              > > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0
                              > > D
                              > >
                              > > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.
                              > >
                              > > This is something I've been contemplating
                              > >
                              > > for some time: What is different with the two
                              > >
                              > > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me
                              > >
                              > > about this subject).
                              > >
                              > > There's another thing on this subject, and it
                              > >
                              > > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,
                              > >
                              > > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided
                              > >
                              > > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the
                              > >
                              > > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,
                              > >
                              > > any of the other lower world bodies where there
                              > >
                              > > are many different ones - including the physical
                              > >
                              > > body.
                              > >
                              > > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma
                              > >
                              > > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is
                              > >
                              > > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul
                              > >
                              > > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.
                              > >
                              > > Something like another dimension.
                              > >
                              > > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?
                              > >
                              > > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of
                              > >
                              > > the Living Eck Master become so important?
                              > >
                              > > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled
                              > >
                              > > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that
                              > >
                              > > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My
                              > >
                              > > understanding is that the astral body is limited
                              > >
                              > > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup
                              > >
                              > > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have
                              > >
                              > > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.
                              > >
                              > > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book
                              > >
                              > > it reads like that was his first vis
                              > > it. However, in
                              > >
                              > > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The
                              > >
                              > > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice
                              > >
                              > > already!
                              > >
                              > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                              > >
                              > > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the
                              > >
                              > > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.
                              > >
                              > > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the
                              > >
                              > > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and
                              > >
                              > > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after
                              > >
                              > > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul
                              > >
                              > > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)
                              > >
                              > > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all
                              > >
                              > > the way to the nameless plane. Anami. & not
                              > >
                              > > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem
                              > >
                              > > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-
                              > >
                              > > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's
                              > >
                              > > Fang account and the year 1957.
                              > >
                              > > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????
                              > >
                              > > I wonder, were those two different books, the
                              > >
                              > > two different manuscripts, about the same basic
                              > >
                              > > experience?
                              > >
                              > > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an
                              > >
                              > > online version of The Path of the Masters? by
                              > >
                              > > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter
                              > >
                              > > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the
                              > >
                              > > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The
                              > >
                              > > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257
                              > >
                              > > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami
                              > >
                              > > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:
                              > >
                              > > A Talk With Rami Nuri.
                              > >
                              > > I've
                              > > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early
                              > >
                              > > books and read from the beginning, looking at
                              > >
                              > > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over
                              > >
                              > > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at
                              > >
                              > > this point in time. I'm discovering things that
                              > >
                              > > had escaped me up until now.
                              > >
                              > > Etznab
                              > >
                              > > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                              > >
                              > > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul
                              > >
                              > > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that
                              > >
                              > > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,
                              > >
                              > > or contemplate upon his Physical image via
                              > >
                              > > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream
                              > >
                              > > of an Astral image. How is this the same as
                              > >
                              > > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God
                              > >
                              > > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal
                              > >
                              > > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather
                              > >
                              > > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?
                              > >
                              > > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches
                              > >
                              > > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is
                              > >
                              > > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions
                              > >
                              > > teach and other "believers" experience!
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!
                              > >
                              > > Hello All,
                              > >
                              > > It was bad enough that HK sold
                              > >
                              > > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"
                              > >
                              > > portrait. Now he's selling the "True
                              > >
                              > > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).
                              > > 0D
                              > >
                              > > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                              > >
                              > > portrait accurately? No, not quite!
                              > >
                              > > The truth has (once again) been
                              > >
                              > > embellished and distorted! Klemp,
                              > >
                              > > no doubt, likes this rendition because
                              > >
                              > > it makes him appear younger. Thus,
                              > >
                              > > this drawing looks more "sketch"
                              > >
                              > > like than portrait like!
                              > >
                              > > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given
                              > >
                              > > a more modern, shaved look, and
                              > >
                              > > does not appear as thin as it really
                              > >
                              > > is (the inside portion of his ear is
                              > >
                              > > different too).
                              > >
                              > > When looking at the front cover photo,
                              > >
                              > > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic
                              > >
                              > > World of ECKankar" we can see that
                              > >
                              > > Klemp parts his hair on the side and
                              > >
                              > > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait
                              > >
                              > > makes Klemp look younger.
                              > >
                              > > The question ECKists should be asking is,
                              > >
                              > > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they
                              > >
                              > > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his
                              > >
                              > > followers all want to "imagine" that they look
                              > >
                              > > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't
                              > >
                              > > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,
                              > >
                              > > rather than having an Astral Plane image!
                              > >
                              > > I think it's funny that Klemp names
                              > >
                              > > this new portrait "True Friend." Would
                              > >
                              > > a "true friend" say such nasty
                              > > and mean
                              > >
                              > > things to you? These RESAs and other
                              > >
                              > > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.
                              > >
                              > > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but
                              > >
                              > > now they see that there are strings
                              > >
                              > > attached and that it's a one-way friend-
                              > >
                              > > ship.
                              > >
                              > > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge
                              > >
                              > > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of
                              > >
                              > > himself, or give it to you... free of
                              > >
                              > > charge? Hmmmmmm.
                              > >
                              > > On another note, I saw how Klemp can
                              > >
                              > > make even more money from his image.
                              > >
                              > > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look
                              > >
                              > > as though he has a big hole running
                              > >
                              > > through his head. So, maybe HK could
                              > >
                              > > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.
                              > >
                              > > The chain would go through his ears!
                              > >
                              > > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for
                              > >
                              > > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK
                              > >
                              > > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as
                              > >
                              > > he does with portraits, books, etc.
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Jay and All, Marman is connected to Klemp because he is an EKist (7th Initiate) and claims to be a long-time friend of HK s. Marman (Doug) is an
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello Jay and All,
                                Marman is connected to Klemp
                                because he is an EKist (7th Initiate)
                                and claims to be a long-time friend
                                of HK's. Marman (Doug) is an apologist
                                for both Klemp and PT, and has a
                                following from an EK fringe group.
                                Just read some of DM's older dialogue
                                and arguments, especially, with David
                                Lane. Steve Runfeldt (EK Internet PR
                                Guru) is another EK apologist who, also,
                                rates a D- when debating (online) with
                                David Lane.

                                BTW- I think that I first read Jane Roberts'
                                books in the early 1970's and once was
                                tempted to stop by for a short visit with
                                her and her husband in Binghamton (since
                                I was passing through at the time). But,
                                my passenger didn't want to stop. I got
                                the impression from reading her books
                                that writing, for Jane, was like a form of
                                therapy that helped to give her some sort
                                of balance, peace of mind, and meaning
                                for her life that helped it all to make sense.
                                From her descriptions, about herself, she
                                came across as having a lot of nervous
                                energy and smoking her cigarettes seemed
                                to calm her. 8th Initiate Millie (Workman)
                                Moore was much the same, but used the
                                spoken word versus the written word.

                                BTW-What do you think about Marman's
                                TS comments about Rebazar and the Holocaust
                                "probably" being myth?

                                Prometheus


                                Jay wrote:

                                Hi Prometheus

                                Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word
                                but how is Marman connected with HK?..and
                                yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                                being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over
                                7..I was just mentioning it in the coincidence
                                of my only discovering the Jane Roberts and Seth
                                stuff last night,not so much the context Etznab
                                had in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking
                                back is flogging a dead horse in many ways..past
                                is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk in the
                                present.

                                Jay

                                From: prometheus
                                Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                                Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,
                                Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's
                                fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam
                                that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that
                                this is similar to beating a dead horse
                                when sorting out the truth from all the
                                crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be
                                distracted from the current, now, happenings
                                under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.

                                Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.
                                He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off
                                the hook via his distractions involving
                                Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,
                                avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon
                                PT's "creative writing" by manipulating
                                the lies and myth that Twitchell created
                                in order to confuse the issue.

                                Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,
                                but became more and more insane over
                                time. And, look at those "creative" people
                                in business who have scammed thousands
                                of individuals out of their life savings! They
                                even scammed hospitals and non-profit
                                foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!
                                Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's
                                expected from a person who paid to be
                                included in "The International Who's Who
                                of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,
                                why do EKists need Klemp when they can
                                "create" their own reality/destiny and make
                                themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a
                                Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is
                                redundant and lives in the past by quoting
                                historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote
                                EK Masters, still living in a physical body,
                                with their current views of society and how
                                it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where
                                are these relevant "insights" from these EK
                                Masters?

                                BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote
                                a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes
                                a disclaimer, on an Internet site, saying it,
                                actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real
                                truth about Marman's book is that it comes
                                much closer to Fiction than to "truth."

                                Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that
                                "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and
                                that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"
                                as well!

                                As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"
                                it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues
                                With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever
                                said/written about his discussions with Rebazar
                                or any other EK Master!

                                FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!
                                This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the
                                "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as
                                the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as
                                the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned
                                about this "upper region," although, it is referred
                                to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-
                                looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This
                                happens because asking too many questions shows
                                spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and
                                in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"
                                comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for
                                answers. However, all "answers" must agree with
                                the same text that contain the conflicting info!
                                This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma
                                works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,
                                or they're Black Balled on "Initiations" and "Positions"
                                within the Satsang Society.

                                Prometheus

                                Jay wrote:

                                Dear Etznab

                                Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,
                                its a fictional piece based on the well known
                                metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..
                                I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson
                                features it as part of his hypothesis as us having
                                multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,
                                in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher
                                Consciousness Society website. You'll find them
                                by clicking on the classes button and then the
                                audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to
                                them in order as not to get confused of what's
                                being discussed and explained by Johnson,
                                the particular section of Over soul seven and
                                Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.

                                g'luk

                                Jay

                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                > From: Jason

                                >
                                >

                                Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"
                                >
                                Etznab,
                                Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"
                                >
                                Prometheus,

                                Etznab wrote:
                                > No. I haven't.
                                >
                                > The reference to number seven interests me.
                                > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are
                                > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 version of
                                > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave
                                > me the impression of eight basic planes, where
                                > the eighth (and highest) was considered above
                                > them all. Like, something on another level, so
                                > to speak. Examples:
                                >
                                > p. 156
                                >
                                > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet
                                > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres
                                > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear
                                > all!"
                                >
                                > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,
                                > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm
                                > not sure. That quote is on the second page
                                > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
                                > Question: Why does he mention seven?]
                                >
                                > For some reason, I'm under the impression
                                > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from
                                > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the
                                > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in
                                > the same book.
                                >
                                > p. 195
                                >
                                > "When I want to show the world my highest
                                > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.
                                > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the
                                > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will
                                > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree
                                > final for he represents my power in the seven
                                > lower worlds."
                                >
                                > [That was from chapter THE FACE OF GOD.
                                > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the
                                >
                                > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in
                                > my earlier post. The being supposed to have
                                > spoken those words was either Anami, or the
                                > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could
                                > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that
                                > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.
                                > Consider the last seven words in that quote:
                                >
                                > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."
                                >
                                > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.
                                > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?
                                > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental
                                > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami
                                > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but
                                > I suspect the earlier models had around eight
                                > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's
                                > book would mention this many and then the
                                > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give
                                > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative
                                > haste, and will have to go back & check the
                                > names of the planes for accuracy.)
                                >
                                > In the next chapter following that one (THE
                                > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs
                                > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph
                                > of the chapter:
                                >
                                > p. 197
                                >
                                > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take
                                > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond
                                > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth
                                > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So
                                > you will then know for yourself. [....]
                                >
                                > p. 199
                                >
                                > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,
                                > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are
                                > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must
                                > serve to take the message of the divine to all my
                                > creations throughout the seven spheres."
                                >
                                > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And
                                > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,
                                > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-
                                > other time mentions seven spheres.
                                >
                                > It was the context from those chapters that gave me
                                > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",
                                > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a
                                > place "above" them and making a total of eight.
                                >
                                > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.
                                > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to
                                > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even
                                > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in
                                > a total of only seven planets.
                                >
                                > As I begin reading through the Eck books again -
                                > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious
                                > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,
                                > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing
                                > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's
                                > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to
                                > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand
                                > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was
                                > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written
                                > materials. Like, how much of it was material that
                                > was already known to history? How much was in
                                > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D
                                > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?
                                > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,
                                > how much of the material had actually come direct
                                > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens
                                > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?
                                >
                                > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and
                                > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,
                                > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with
                                > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.
                                >
                                > Etznab
                                >
                              • etznab@aol.com
                                I m not so sure the past is a dead horse . In fact, I would call it very much alive and is the basis for many people s present & future beliefs about numerous
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".
                                  In fact, I would call it very much alive and is
                                  the basis for many people's present & future
                                  beliefs about numerous things.

                                  Going back and clarifying the past is what
                                  I am seeking to do, by isolating the context
                                  of those many stories I have read and heard
                                  told in Eckankar books and discussions.

                                  This is something I've been wanting to do
                                  for a long time. Establish the "context". For
                                  example, What is the literal truth and what
                                  is not?

                                  Here is why I think this important. When I
                                  can prove beyond a doubt that something is
                                  fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that
                                  regard. It's power over me would not be the
                                  same, not have the same influence & power
                                  over my belief system and psyche as some-
                                  thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With
                                  myth and fiction - knowing a source is that -
                                  it leaves me with the liberty to explore further
                                  and to learn how the story came about in the
                                  first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the
                                  people who take pseudo religion and history
                                  to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.
                                  I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &
                                  infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my
                                  conscience, living with the thought I am know-
                                  ingly spreading fact for fiction.

                                  BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.
                                  I'm just now getting around to reading mail.

                                  Etznab





                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm
                                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                                  Soul "Body"








                                  Hi Prometheus

                                  Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman
                                  connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff
                                  being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just
                                  mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane
                                  Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had
                                  in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a
                                  dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk
                                  in the present.

                                  Jay

                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08
                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul
                                  "Body"













                                  Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,

                                  Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's

                                  fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam

                                  that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that

                                  this is similar to beating a dead horse

                                  when sorting out the truth from all the

                                  crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be

                                  distracted from the current, now, happenings

                                  under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.


                                  =0
                                  A
                                  Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.

                                  He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off

                                  the hook via his distractions involving

                                  Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,

                                  avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon

                                  PT's "creative writing" by manipulating

                                  the lies and myth that Twitchell created

                                  in order to confuse the issue.



                                  Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,

                                  but became more and more insane over

                                  time. And, look at those "creative" people

                                  in business who have scammed thousands

                                  of individuals out of their life savings! They

                                  even scammed hospitals and non-profit

                                  foundations! Very "creative" weren't they!

                                  Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's

                                  expected from a person who paid to be

                                  included in "The International Who's Who

                                  of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,

                                  why do EKists need Klemp when they can

                                  "create" their own reality/destiny and make

                                  themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a

                                  Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is

                                  redundant and lives in the past by quoting

                                  historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote

                                  EK Masters, still living in a physical body,

                                  with their current views of society and how

                                  it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where

                                  are these relevant "insights" from these EK

                                  Masters?



                                  BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote

                                  a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes

                                  a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,

                                  actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real

                                  truth about Marman's book is that it comes

                                  much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                                  Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that

                                  "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and

                                  that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"

                                  as well!



                                  As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"

                                  it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues

                                  With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever

                                  said/written about his discussions with Rebazar

                                  or any other EK Master!



                                  FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!

                                  This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the

                                  "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as

                                  the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as

                                  the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned

                                  about this "upper region," although, it is referred

                                  to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-

                                  looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This

                                  happens because asking too many questions shows

                                  spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and

                                  in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"

                                  comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for

                                  answers. However, all "answers" must agree with

                                  the same text that contain the conflicting info!

                                  This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma

                                  works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,

                                  or they're Black Ball
                                  ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"

                                  within the Satsang Society.



                                  Prometheus



                                  Jay wrote:



                                  Dear Etznab



                                  Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,

                                  its a fictional piece based on the well known

                                  metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..

                                  I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson

                                  features it as part of his hypothesis as us having

                                  multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,

                                  in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher

                                  Consciousness Society website. You'll find them

                                  by clicking on the classes button and then the

                                  audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to

                                  them in order as not to get confused of what's

                                  being discussed and explained by Johnson,

                                  the particular section of Over soul seven and

                                  Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                                  g'luk



                                  Jay



                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > ____________ _________ _________ __

                                  > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                                  >

                                  >



                                  Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                                  >

                                  Etznab,

                                  Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                                  >

                                  Prometheus,



                                  Etznab wrote:

                                  > No. I haven't.

                                  >

                                  > The reference to number seven interests me.

                                  > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are

                                  > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v
                                  ersion of

                                  > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave

                                  > me the impression of eight basic planes, where

                                  > the eighth (and highest) was considered above

                                  > them all. Like, something on another level, so

                                  > to speak. Examples:

                                  >

                                  > p. 156

                                  >

                                  > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet

                                  > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres

                                  > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear

                                  > all!"

                                  >

                                  > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,

                                  > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm

                                  > not sure. That quote is on the second page

                                  > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.

                                  > Question: Why does he mention seven?]

                                  >

                                  > For some reason, I'm under the impression

                                  > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from

                                  > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the

                                  > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in

                                  > the same book.

                                  >

                                  > p. 195

                                  >

                                  > "When I want to show the world my highest

                                  > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.

                                  > This is my greatest gift and boon. He is the

                                  > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will

                                  > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree

                                  > final for he represents my power in the seven

                                  > lower worlds."

                                  >

                                  > [That was fro
                                  m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.

                                  > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the

                                  >

                                  > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in

                                  > my earlier post. The being supposed to have

                                  > spoken those words was either Anami, or the

                                  > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could

                                  > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that

                                  > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.

                                  > Consider the last seven words in that quote:

                                  >

                                  > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."

                                  >

                                  > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.

                                  > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?

                                  > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental

                                  > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami

                                  > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but

                                  > I suspect the earlier models had around eight

                                  > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's

                                  > book would mention this many and then the

                                  > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give

                                  > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative

                                  > haste, and will have to go back & check the

                                  > names of the planes for accuracy.)

                                  >

                                  > In the next chapter following that one (THE

                                  > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs

                                  > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph

                                  > of the chapter:

                                  >

                                  > p. 1
                                  97

                                  >

                                  > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take

                                  > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond

                                  > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth

                                  > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So

                                  > you will then know for yourself. [....]

                                  >

                                  > p. 199

                                  >

                                  > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,

                                  > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are

                                  > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must

                                  > serve to take the message of the divine to all my

                                  > creations throughout the seven spheres."

                                  >

                                  > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And

                                  > by none other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,

                                  > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-

                                  > other time mentions seven spheres.

                                  >

                                  > It was the context from those chapters that gave me

                                  > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",

                                  > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a

                                  > place "above" them and making a total of eight.

                                  >

                                  > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.

                                  > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to

                                  > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even

                                  > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in

                                  > a total of only seven planets.

                                  >

                                  > As I begin re
                                  ading through the Eck books again -

                                  > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious

                                  > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,

                                  > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing

                                  > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's

                                  > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to

                                  > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand

                                  > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was

                                  > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                                  > materials. Like, how much of it was material that

                                  > was already known to history? How much was in

                                  > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D

                                  > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?

                                  > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,

                                  > how much of the material had actually come direct

                                  > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens

                                  > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?

                                  >

                                  > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and

                                  > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,

                                  > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with

                                  > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.

                                  >

                                  > Etznab

                                  >

                                  > -----Original Message-----

                                  > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>

                                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

                                  > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20
                                  09 1:41 pm

                                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.
                                  the Soul

                                  > "Body"

                                  >

                                  > Hello Etznab,

                                  >

                                  > You make some good points and have

                                  >

                                  > brought up more information to point

                                  >

                                  > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.

                                  >

                                  > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"

                                  >

                                  > and D.W.T.M. later.

                                  >

                                  > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra

                                  >

                                  > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;

                                  >

                                  > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th

                                  >

                                  > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"

                                  >

                                  > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral

                                  >

                                  > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to

                                  >

                                  > overlook this point. And, look at how

                                  >

                                  > many years Klemp has instructed EKists

                                  >

                                  > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/

                                  >

                                  > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra

                                  >

                                  > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0

                                  > D

                                  >

                                  > Chakra is still being used after 28 years

                                  >

                                  > under Klemp's rule(s)!

                                  >

                                  > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is

                                  >

                                  > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There

                                  >

                                  > is a belief that Groups of Souls have an

                                  >

                                  > Over-Soul and that
                                  these Souls need to

                                  >

                                  > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)

                                  >

                                  > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/

                                  >

                                  > being that same Over-Soul which, then,

                                  >

                                  > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can

                                  >

                                  > by-pass the hierarchy and can become

                                  >

                                  > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,

                                  >

                                  > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have

                                  >

                                  > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"

                                  >

                                  > Prometheus

                                  >

                                  > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI

                                  >

                                  > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is

                                  >

                                  > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"

                                  >

                                  > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th

                                  >

                                  > Plane!

                                  >

                                  > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"

                                  >

                                  > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,

                                  >

                                  > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect

                                  >

                                  > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "advanced"

                                  >

                                  > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"

                                  >

                                  > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]

                                  >

                                  > Etznab wrote:

                                  >

                                  > I would like to know the difference between

                                  >

                                  > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,

                                  >

                                  > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something

                                  >

                                  > about the inner=2
                                  0form of the Living Eck Master.

                                  >

                                  > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called

                                  >

                                  > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0

                                  > D

                                  >

                                  > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.

                                  >

                                  > This is something I've been contemplating

                                  >

                                  > for some time: What is different with the two

                                  >

                                  > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me

                                  >

                                  > about this subject).

                                  >

                                  > There's another thing on this subject, and it

                                  >

                                  > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,

                                  >

                                  > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided

                                  >

                                  > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the

                                  >

                                  > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,

                                  >

                                  > any of the other lower world bodies where there

                                  >

                                  > are many different ones - including the physical

                                  >

                                  > body.

                                  >

                                  > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma

                                  >

                                  > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is

                                  >

                                  > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul

                                  >

                                  > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.

                                  >

                                  > Something like another dimension.

                                  >

                                  > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?

                                  >

                                  > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of

                                  >

                                  > the L
                                  iving Eck Master become so important?

                                  >

                                  > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled

                                  >

                                  > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that

                                  >

                                  > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My

                                  >

                                  > understanding is that the astral body is limited

                                  >

                                  > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup

                                  >

                                  > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one would have

                                  >

                                  > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.

                                  >

                                  > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book

                                  >

                                  > it reads like that was his first vis

                                  > it. However, in

                                  >

                                  > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The

                                  >

                                  > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice

                                  >

                                  > already!

                                  >

                                  > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                                  >

                                  > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the

                                  >

                                  > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.

                                  >

                                  > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the

                                  >

                                  > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and

                                  >

                                  > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after

                                  >

                                  > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul

                                  >

                                  > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)

                                  >

                                  > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all

                                  >

                                  > the way to the nameless
                                  plane. Anami. & not

                                  >

                                  > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem

                                  >

                                  > quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-

                                  >

                                  > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's

                                  >

                                  > Fang account and the year 1957.

                                  >

                                  > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????

                                  >

                                  > I wonder, were those two different books, the

                                  >

                                  > two different manuscripts, about the same basic

                                  >

                                  > experience?

                                  >

                                  > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an

                                  >

                                  > online version of The Path of the Masters? by

                                  >

                                  > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter

                                  >

                                  > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the

                                  >

                                  > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The

                                  >

                                  > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257

                                  >

                                  > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami

                                  >

                                  > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:

                                  >

                                  > A Talk With Rami Nuri.

                                  >

                                  > I've

                                  > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early

                                  >

                                  > books and read from the beginning, looking at

                                  >

                                  > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over

                                  >

                                  > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at

                                  >

                                  > this point in time. I'm discovering things that

                                  >

                                  > had20escaped me up until now.

                                  >

                                  > Etznab

                                  >

                                  > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"

                                  >

                                  > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul

                                  >

                                  > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that

                                  >

                                  > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,

                                  >

                                  > or contemplate upon his Physical image via

                                  >

                                  > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream

                                  >

                                  > of an Astral image. How is this the same as

                                  >

                                  > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God

                                  >

                                  > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal

                                  >

                                  > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather

                                  >

                                  > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?

                                  >

                                  > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches

                                  >

                                  > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is

                                  >

                                  > of the Lower Planes just as all other religions

                                  >

                                  > teach and other "believers" experience!

                                  >

                                  > Prometheus

                                  >

                                  > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!

                                  >

                                  > Hello All,

                                  >

                                  > It was bad enough that HK sold

                                  >

                                  > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"

                                  >

                                  > portrait. Now he's selling the "True

                                  >

                                  > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).

                                  > 0D

                                  >

                                  > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the
                                  =0
                                  A
                                  >

                                  > portrait accurately? No, not quite!

                                  >

                                  > The truth has (once again) been

                                  >

                                  > embellished and distorted! Klemp,

                                  >

                                  > no doubt, likes this rendition because

                                  >

                                  > it makes him appear younger. Thus,

                                  >

                                  > this drawing looks more "sketch"

                                  >

                                  > like than portrait like!

                                  >

                                  > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given

                                  >

                                  > a more modern, shaved look, and

                                  >

                                  > does not appear as thin as it really

                                  >

                                  > is (the inside portion of his ear is

                                  >

                                  > different too).

                                  >

                                  > When looking at the front cover photo,

                                  >

                                  > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic

                                  >

                                  > World of ECKankar" we can see that

                                  >

                                  > Klemp parts his hair on the side and

                                  >

                                  > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait

                                  >

                                  > makes Klemp look younger.

                                  >

                                  > The question ECKists should be asking is,

                                  >

                                  > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they

                                  >

                                  > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his

                                  >

                                  > followers all want to "imagine" that they look

                                  >

                                  > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't

                                  >

                                  > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,

                                  >

                                  > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0
                                  D

                                  >

                                  > I think it's funny that Klemp names

                                  >

                                  > this new portrait "True Friend." Would

                                  >

                                  > a "true friend" say such nasty

                                  > and mean

                                  >

                                  > things to you? These RESAs and other

                                  >

                                  > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.

                                  >

                                  > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but

                                  >

                                  > now they see that there are strings

                                  >

                                  > attached and that it's a one-way friend-

                                  >

                                  > ship.

                                  >

                                  > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge

                                  >

                                  > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of

                                  >

                                  > himself, or give it to you... free of

                                  >

                                  > charge? Hmmmmmm.

                                  >

                                  > On another note, I saw how Klemp can

                                  >

                                  > make even more money from his image.

                                  >

                                  > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look

                                  >

                                  > as though he has a big hole running

                                  >

                                  > through his head. So, maybe HK could

                                  >

                                  > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.

                                  >

                                  > The chain would go through his ears!

                                  >

                                  > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for

                                  >

                                  > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK

                                  >

                                  > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as

                                  >

                                  > he does with portraits, books, etc.

                                  >

                                  > Prometheus

                                  >

                                  &
                                  gt;

                                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                                  .yahoo.com

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger
                                  .yahoo.com

                                  >











                                  Send instant messages to your online friends
                                  http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                                • etznab@aol.com
                                  Typo correction. The following sentence I don t have to have guilt on my conscience, living with the thought I am knowingly spreading fact for fiction.
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jun 27, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Typo correction. The following sentence

                                    "I don't have to have guilt on my conscience,
                                    living with the thought I am knowingly spreading
                                    fact for fiction."

                                    should read: fiction for fact, instead of fact
                                    for fiction.

                                    Etznab

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: etznab@...
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 6:47 pm
                                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the
                                    Soul "Body"










                                    I'm not so sure the past is a "dead horse".

                                    In fact, I would call it very much alive and is

                                    the basis for many people's present & future

                                    beliefs about numerous things.



                                    Going back and clarifying the past is what

                                    I am seeking to do, by isolating the context

                                    of those many stories I have read and heard

                                    told in Eckankar books and discussions.



                                    This is something I've been wanting to do

                                    for a long time. Establish the "context". For

                                    example, What is the literal truth and what

                                    is not?



                                    Here is why I think this important. When I

                                    can prove beyond a doubt that something is

                                    fiction, or myth, then I can accept it in that

                                    regard. It's power over me would not be the

                                    same, not have the same influence & power

                                    over my belief system and psyche as some-

                                    thing I knew to be true beyond a doubt. With

                                    myth and fiction - knowing a source is that
                                    -

                                    it leaves me with the liberty to explore further

                                    and to learn how the story came about in the

                                    first place. Also, I don't have to be one of the

                                    people who take pseudo religion and history

                                    to be literally the whole truth and nothing but.

                                    I don't have to be one to "spread the virus" &

                                    infect others. I don't have to have guilt on my

                                    conscience, living with the thought I am know-

                                    ingly spreading fact for fiction.



                                    BTW, thanks for the correspondence Jay.

                                    I'm just now getting around to reading mail.



                                    Etznab



                                    -----Original Message-----

                                    From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@...>

                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                                    Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 5:32 pm

                                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the

                                    Soul "Body"



                                    Hi Prometheus



                                    Thanks for the tip off..not to doubt your word but how is Marman

                                    connected with HK?..and yea I see what you mean by PT's or HK's stuff

                                    being that of fiction in comparison to Soul over 7..I was just

                                    mentioning it in the coincidence of my only discovering the Jane

                                    Roberts and Seth stuff last night,not so much the context  Etznab had

                                    in their line of inquiry. I'd have to agree looking back is flogging a

                                    dead horse in many ways..past is past. Well done on your obvious of Hk

                                    in the present.



                                    Jay



                                    =0
                                    AFrom: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                                    Sent: Friday, 26 June, 2009 18:29:08

                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul

                                    "Body"



                                    Hello Jay, Etznab, and All,



                                    Welcome to the site Jay. Actually, it's



                                    fine to discuss the EKankar history/scam



                                    that Twit began. Sometimes I feel that



                                    this is similar to beating a dead horse



                                    when sorting out the truth from all the



                                    crap. That's why I don't (IMO) like to be



                                    distracted from the current, now, happenings



                                    under Klemp's, overstayed, reign.



                                    =0

                                    A

                                    Also, Marman is a detractor of Truth.



                                    He's HK's lackey and gets Klemp off



                                    the hook via his distractions involving



                                    Twitchell. He speculates, talks in circles,



                                    avoids/denies the facts and focuses upon



                                    PT's "creative writing" by manipulating



                                    the lies and myth that Twitchell created



                                    in order to confuse the issue.



                                    Van Gogh was, also, a creative person,



                                    but became more and more insane over



                                    time. And, look at those "creative" people



                                    in business who have scammed thousands



                                    of individuals out of their life savings! They



                                    even scammed hospitals and non-profit



                                    foundations!
                                    Very "creative" weren't they!



                                    Klemp admires "creative" people, but that's



                                    expected from a person who paid to be



                                    included in "The International Who's Who



                                    of Intellectuals, ninth edition." However,



                                    why do EKists need Klemp when they can



                                    "create" their own reality/destiny and make



                                    themselves the Top Dog Soul? Why is a



                                    Mahanta needed let alone a LEM who is



                                    redundant and lives in the past by quoting



                                    historic people. Why doesn't Klemp quote



                                    EK Masters, still living in a physical body,



                                    with their current views of society and how



                                    it relates to living a "spiritual" life! Where



                                    are these relevant "insights" from these EK



                                    Masters?



                                    BTW-I find it interesting that Marman wrote



                                    a book "The Whole Truth" and then writes



                                    a disclaimer, on an20Internet site, saying it,



                                    actually, isn't the "whole truth." The real



                                    truth about Marman's book is that it comes



                                    much closer to Fiction than to "truth."



                                    Marman, on Ford's site, once stated that



                                    "Rebazar Tarzs is probably a myth" and



                                    that "the Holocaust is probably a myth"



                                    as well!



                                    As for Jane Robert's book, "Over-Soul Seven,"



                                    it's no more fiction than Twitchell's "Dialogues




                                    With the Master," or anything Klemp has ever



                                    said/written about his discussions with Rebazar



                                    or any other EK Master!



                                    FYI- Etznab, you left out the ETHERIC PLANE!



                                    This was once listed (by Twit early on) as the



                                    "5th" Plane (I think that "Path" mentions it as



                                    the 5th too). Later, it became known (in EK) as



                                    the "upper" Mental Plane. Not much is mentioned



                                    about this "upper region," although, it is referred



                                    to as a "Plane." This is just one detail that is over-



                                    looked and accepted (over time) by EKists. This



                                    happens because asking too many questions shows



                                    spiritual immaturity and doubt in the Mahanta and



                                    in the ECK teachings. Thus, the "Law of Silence"



                                    comes into play and "taking it to the inner" for



                                    answers. However, all "answers" must agree with



                                    the same text that contain the conflicting info!



                                    This is how the Catch-22 of any religious dogma



                                    works. The "follower/believer" either marches in step,



                                    or they're Black Ball

                                    ed on "Initiations" and "Positions"



                                    within the Satsang Society.



                                    Prometheus



                                    Jay wrote:



                                    Dear Etznab



                                    Over soul seven is a book by Jane Roberts,



                                    its a fictional piece based on the well20known



                                    metaphysic volumes called the Seth Writings..



                                    I've just come across it last night!! lol! Ford Johnson



                                    features it as part of his hypothesis as us having



                                    multiple consciousness on many planes of existence,



                                    in the his talks you can listen to on the Higher



                                    Consciousness Society website. You'll find them



                                    by clicking on the classes button and then the



                                    audio samples link. I'd recommend listening to



                                    them in order as not to get confused of what's



                                    being discussed and explained by Johnson,



                                    the particular section of Over soul seven and



                                    Jane Roberts is session 2 part1.



                                    g'luk



                                    Jay



                                    >



                                    >



                                    >



                                    > ____________ _________ _________ __



                                    > From: Jason Mc Dermott <jsnmcdermott@ ...>



                                    >



                                    >



                                    Re: HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                                    >



                                    Etznab,



                                    Have you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                                    >



                                    Prometheus,



                                    Etznab wrote:



                                    > No. I haven't.



                                    >



                                    > The reference to number seven interests me.



                                    > Since "seven heavens", or "seven spheres" are



                                    > mentioned in the 9th Printing, 1987 v

                                    ersion of=0
                                    D



                                    > Dialogues With The Master. Those words gave



                                    > me the impression of eight basic planes, where



                                    > the eighth (and highest) was considered above



                                    > them all. Like, something on another level, so



                                    > to speak. Examples:



                                    >



                                    > p. 156



                                    >



                                    > "The light comes from within, a blinding sheet



                                    > of pure ray. The music is that of the spheres



                                    > of the seven heavens. I can see all and hear



                                    > all!"



                                    >



                                    > [I believe that was Paul Twitchell speaking,



                                    > during some sort of cosmic experience. I'm



                                    > not sure. That quote is on the second page



                                    > of chapter THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS.



                                    > Question: Why does he mention seven?]



                                    >



                                    > For some reason, I'm under the impression



                                    > that the "seven heavens" were the lower (from



                                    > a total of eight basic planes). Anami being the



                                    > 8th. Consider this other reference to seven in



                                    > the same book.



                                    >



                                    > p. 195



                                    >



                                    > "When I want to show the world my highest



                                    > grace and mercy, I send ye the supreme son.



                                    > This is my greatest gift and boon.=2
                                    0He is the



                                    > sole Master and absolute lord over all; his will



                                    > is supreme, his word is ultimate, and his decree



                                    > final for he represents my power in the seven



                                    > lower worlds."



                                    >



                                    > [That was fro

                                    m chapter THE FACE OF GOD.



                                    > I believe that was the 1st of two trips to the



                                    >



                                    > Anami plane that I suggested was the case in



                                    > my earlier post. The being supposed to have



                                    > spoken those words was either Anami, or the



                                    > SUGMAD, far as I can tell. Of course, it could



                                    > have actually been Paul Twitchell writing that



                                    > story. Part fiction, part spiritual teachings, etc.



                                    > Consider the last seven words in that quote:



                                    >



                                    > ".... my power in the seven lower worlds."



                                    >



                                    > I get the idea of 8 planes in this paradigm.



                                    > Didn't the early Sant Mat (whatever) have 8?



                                    > (1) Physical, (2) Astral, (3) Casual, (4) Mental



                                    > (5) Soul, (6) Sat Lok, (7) Agam Lok. (8) Anami



                                    > Lok? I may not have them exactly correct, but



                                    > I suspect the earlier models had around eight



                                    > planes. Curious this is, that Julian Johnson's



                                    > book=2
                                    0would mention this many and then the



                                    > 1956 manuscript of Dialogues seems to give



                                    > a similar account. (I'm writing this in relative



                                    > haste, and will have to go back & check the



                                    > names of the planes for accuracy.)



                                    >



                                    > In the next chapter following that one (THE



                                    > SUGMAD SPEAKS) Paul and Rebazar Tarzs



                                    > go again to ... well, just read the first paragraph



                                    > of the chapter:



                                    >



                                    > p. 1

                                    97



                                    >



                                    > Rebazar Tarzs: "I have returned tonight to take



                                    > you again into the far reaches of the worlds beyond



                                    > into the Absolute for you to hear and know the truth



                                    > of truths from the lips of the Almighty SUGMAD. So



                                    > you will then know for yourself. [....]



                                    >



                                    > p. 199



                                    >



                                    > "Listen ye, my worthy one. I, thy God, and Creator,



                                    > speak20to give ye the message of thy work. Ye are



                                    > among the Holy Ones. Ye are the highest and must



                                    > serve to take the message of the divine to all my



                                    > creations throughout the seven spheres."



                                    >



                                    > Here the number seven is mentioned again. And



                                    > by non
                                    e other than "God" (SUGMAD) himself. So,



                                    > once he ("God") mentions seven heavens and an-



                                    > other time mentions seven spheres.



                                    >



                                    > It was the context from those chapters that gave me



                                    > the impression of seven planes ("heavens", "spheres",



                                    > etc.), but that SUGMAD ("God") was speaking from a



                                    > place "above" them and making a total of eight.



                                    >



                                    > I don't know about Over-Soul Seven you mentioned.



                                    > Haven't researched that. I do recall, however, seven to



                                    > be a prominent number in classical cosmology - even



                                    > during the time when people (supposedly) believed in



                                    > a total of only seven planets.



                                    >



                                    > As I begin re

                                    ading through the Eck books again -



                                    > starting at the earliest ones - I am taking copious



                                    > notes and creating my own Index for words / terms,



                                    > when and where they appear. I'm also referencing



                                    > and comparing the illustrations to Julian Johnson's



                                    > 1939 Path of the Masters book. This is all going to



                                    > take a long time. I'm doing it to better understand



                                    > the evolution of Eckankar teachings and what was



                                    > (were) the actual "SOURCE(S)" for all the written

                                    =0
                                    D

                                    > materials. Like, how much of it was material that



                                    > was already known to history? How much was in



                                    > the form of passages & quotes taken from books?0D



                                    > How much was from Paul Twitchell's imagination?



                                    > How much was pure fiction? And last but not least,



                                    > how much of the material had actually come direct



                                    > from Eck Masters, beings and lords from heavens



                                    > (inner planes) and/or "God" ITSELF?



                                    >



                                    > This I'd like to know for my own satisfaction and



                                    > so that I can dispell with taking any pseudo dogma,



                                    > history, religion for the literal truth. Also dispell with



                                    > other people trying to feed lines of fiction for truth.



                                    >



                                    > Etznab



                                    >



                                    > -----Original Message-----



                                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>



                                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com



                                    > Sent: Wed, Jun 24, 20

                                    09 1:41 pm



                                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: HK's Astral Body vs.

                                    the Soul



                                    > "Body"



                                    >



                                    > Hello Etznab,



                                    >



                                    > You make some good points and have



                                    >



                                    > brought up more information to point



                                    =0
                                    A>



                                    > out Twitchell's and, now, Klemp's scam.



                                    >



                                    > I'll have to look at my copy of "Path"



                                    >



                                    > and D.W.T.M. later.



                                    >



                                    > It should be pointed out that EK's Tisra



                                    >



                                    > Til, (aka) the: Spiritual Eye; 10th Door;



                                    >



                                    > Third Eye; Shiva-Netra, is also the 6th



                                    >



                                    > Astral Plane Chakra! When EKists "see"



                                    >



                                    > their "Inner Master" it is of his Astral



                                    >



                                    > "light body!" Chelas and H.I.s tend to



                                    >



                                    > overlook this point. And, look at how



                                    >



                                    > many years Klemp has instructed EKists



                                    >



                                    > to use this 6th Astral Chakra when chanting/



                                    >



                                    > singing the HU! The 7th Crown Chakra



                                    >



                                    > is higher and, yet, the lower 6th (Astral)=0



                                    > D



                                    >



                                    > Chakra is still being used after 28 years



                                    >



                                    > under Klemp's rule(s)!



                                    >



                                    > BTW- It could be that "Atma Sarup" is



                                    >



                                    > actually referring to the Over-Soul! There



                                    >



                                    > is a belief that Groups
                                    of Souls have an



                                    >



                                    > Over-Soul and that

                                    these Souls need to



                                    >



                                    > become "One" with It (the Over-Soul)



                                    >



                                    > or become Aware of It, thereby, becoming/



                                    >



                                    > being that same Over-Soul which, then,



                                    >



                                    > becomes One with Spirit. Or, Soul can



                                    >



                                    > by-pass the hierarchy and can become



                                    >



                                    > "One" with the HOLY SPIRIT (EK), or Whatever,



                                    >



                                    > on their own... and in this "Now!" Have



                                    >



                                    > you ever read about, "Over-Soul Seven?"



                                    >



                                    > Prometheus



                                    >



                                    > p.s. Isn't it strange, too, that the ANAMI



                                    >



                                    > LOK is the 10th PLANE and, yet, this is



                                    >



                                    > where "the Supreme Being, the SUGMAD"



                                    >



                                    > resides, and that LEM's are of the 12th



                                    >



                                    > Plane!



                                    >



                                    > Also, on the Anami Lok, "the word is HU,"



                                    >



                                    > thus, why do H.I.s use the, 6th Astral,



                                    >



                                    > Spiritual Eye when HUing in order to connect



                                    >



                                    > with SUGMAD? And, why do these "
                                    advanced"



                                    >



                                    > Souls (H.I.s), still, need a "Mahanta?"



                                    >



                                    > [The ECK Lexicon, page 9]



                                    >



                                    > Etznab wrote:



                                    >



                                    > I would like to know the difference between



                                    >



                                    > Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup. So far, I believe,



                                    >



                                    > the Nuri Sarup is an astral body. Something



                                    >



                                    > about the inner=2

                                    0form of the Living Eck Master.



                                    >



                                    > The Atma Sarup, however, was also called



                                    >



                                    > a "light body" I believe it corresponds with the=0



                                    > D



                                    >



                                    > Fifth Plane, the Soul Plane.



                                    >



                                    > This is something I've been contemplating



                                    >



                                    > for some time: What is different with the two



                                    >



                                    > types of lights? (Your post just reminded me



                                    >



                                    > about this subject).



                                    >



                                    > There's another thing on this subject, and it



                                    >



                                    > has to do with the words Atma Sarup. That is,



                                    >



                                    > I have a hunch the term refers to an undivided



                                    >



                                    > body, and that there is only ONE. Unlike the




                                    >



                                    > Nuri Sarup, the Astral Body or, for that matter,



                                    >



                                    > any of the other lower world bodies where there



                                    >



                                    > are many different ones - including the physical



                                    >



                                    > body.



                                    >



                                    > So, my theory is that their isn't a my Atma



                                    >



                                    > Sarup and your Atma Sarup, but that there is



                                    >



                                    > only ONE "SOUL BODY". Afterall, the Soul



                                    >



                                    > Plane is supposedly beyond time and space.



                                    >



                                    > Something like another dimension.



                                    >



                                    > Wouldn't that be the goal? The Atma Sarup?



                                    >



                                    > and realizing that? How did the Astral Body of



                                    >



                                    > the L

                                    iving Eck Master become so important?



                                    >



                                    > Like, when Paul Twitchell reportedly traveled



                                    >



                                    > to the Anami Lok with Rebazar Tarzs was that



                                    >



                                    > the Master's Nuri Sarup he was following? My



                                    >



                                    > understanding is that the astral body is limited



                                    >



                                    > to the Astral Plane. I reckon the Atma Sarup



                                    >



                                    > transcends the Nuri Sarup ,and one=2
                                    0would have



                                    >



                                    > to go beyond the Astral Plane at some point.



                                    >



                                    > Speaking of Anami, in The Tiger's Fang book



                                    >



                                    > it reads like that was his first vis



                                    > it. However, in



                                    >



                                    > the reportedly older book (Dialogues With The



                                    >



                                    > Master) Paul Twitchell goes to the Anami twice



                                    >



                                    > already!



                                    >



                                    > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                                    >



                                    > A couple chapters earlier in D.W.T.M. the



                                    >



                                    > Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs introduces Paul T.



                                    >



                                    > to Rami Nuri. Now I believe it was reported the



                                    >



                                    > D.W.T.M. manuscript was written in 1956 and



                                    >



                                    > T.T.F. manuscript in 1957. So one year after



                                    >



                                    > getting initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, Paul



                                    >



                                    > Twitchell writes a book (the manuscript for)



                                    >



                                    > Dialogues With The Master. In it he travels all



                                    >



                                    > the way to the nameless

                                    plane. Anami. & not



                                    >



                                    > only once, but twice! Something doesn't seem



                                    >



                                    &
                                    gt; quite right about that, because Paul's T.'s God-



                                    >



                                    > Realization is usually identified with The Tiger's



                                    >



                                    > Fang account and the year 1957.



                                    >



                                    > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????



                                    >



                                    > I wonder, were those two different books, the



                                    >



                                    > two different manuscripts, about the same basic



                                    >



                                    > experience?



                                    >



                                    > BTW, do you have a link on your site to an



                                    >



                                    > online version of The Path of the Masters? by



                                    >



                                    > Julian Johnson? Because, look at the chapter



                                    >



                                    > entitled God and the Grand Hierarchy of the



                                    >



                                    > Universe (chapter five). Look at section 7. The



                                    >



                                    > Negative Power (in my book, from about p. 257



                                    >



                                    > on) and compare that with the speech by Rami



                                    >



                                    > Nuri in Dialogues With The Master. Example:



                                    >



                                    > A Talk With Rami Nuri.



                                    >



                                    > I've



                                    > decided to start at Paul Twitchell's early



                                    >



                                    > books and read from the beginning, looking at



                                    >


                                    0D
                                    > how the teachings of Eckankar took shape over



                                    >



                                    > the years. I'm about 3/4 through D.W.T.M. at



                                    >



                                    > this point in time. I'm discovering things that



                                    >



                                    > had20escaped me up until now.



                                    >



                                    > Etznab



                                    >



                                    > HK's Astral Body vs. the Soul "Body"



                                    >



                                    > Why is it that ECKankar teaches that Soul



                                    >



                                    > is a Point-of-Light, but HK preaches that



                                    >



                                    > chelas should "Gaze" at a $ picture of himself,



                                    >



                                    > or contemplate upon his Physical image via



                                    >



                                    > his younger looking "Official Photo," or dream



                                    >



                                    > of an Astral image. How is this the same as



                                    >



                                    > meeting the Inner Master in the "Higher" God



                                    >



                                    > Worlds? Can't H.I.s (after 30-40 years) deal



                                    >



                                    > with meeting a Point-of-Light (ATOM) rather



                                    >



                                    > than master Harry's Physical or Astral image?



                                    >



                                    > Apparently not! Everything that Klemp teaches



                                    >



                                    > (including "experiences with EK Masters") is



                                    >



                                    > of the Lower Planes=2
                                    0just as all other religions



                                    >



                                    > teach and other "believers" experience!



                                    >



                                    > Prometheus



                                    >



                                    > Klemp is Selling Another "Portrait" of Himself!



                                    >



                                    > Hello All,



                                    >



                                    > It was bad enough that HK sold



                                    >



                                    > his droopy-eyed "Gaze of the Master"



                                    >



                                    > portrait. Now he's selling the "True



                                    >



                                    > Friend" 8 x 10 sketch (portrait).



                                    > 0D



                                    >



                                    > But, did Raoof, the artist, draw the

                                    =0

                                    A

                                    >



                                    > portrait accurately? No, not quite!



                                    >



                                    > The truth has (once again) been



                                    >



                                    > embellished and distorted! Klemp,



                                    >



                                    > no doubt, likes this rendition because



                                    >



                                    > it makes him appear younger. Thus,



                                    >



                                    > this drawing looks more "sketch"



                                    >



                                    > like than portrait like!



                                    >



                                    > What's wrong? Klemp's hair is given



                                    >



                                    > a more modern, shaved look, and



                                    >



                                    > does not appear as thin as it really



                                    >



                                    > is (t
                                    he inside portion of his ear is



                                    >



                                    > different too).



                                    >



                                    > When looking at the front cover photo,



                                    >



                                    > of Klemp, in the June 2009, "The Mystic



                                    >



                                    > World of ECKankar" we can see that



                                    >



                                    > Klemp parts his hair on the side and



                                    >



                                    > does a comb-over! Thus, this new portrait



                                    >



                                    > makes Klemp look younger.



                                    >



                                    > The question ECKists should be asking is,



                                    >



                                    > Why is Klemp so vain? Maybe because they



                                    >



                                    > are as well (as above, so below)! HK and his



                                    >



                                    > followers all want to "imagine" that they look



                                    >



                                    > "youthful" on the inner planes! But, doesn't



                                    >



                                    > Soul appear as a point of Light, with no gender,



                                    >



                                    > rather than having an Astral Plane image!=0

                                    D



                                    >



                                    > I think it's funny that Klemp names



                                    >



                                    > this new portrait "True Friend." Would



                                    >



                                    > a "true friend" say such nasty



                                    > and mean



                                    >



                                    > things to you? These RESAs and ot
                                    her



                                    >



                                    > H.I.s that Klemp puts down in his H.I.



                                    >



                                    > Letter see Klemp as a True Friend, but



                                    >



                                    > now they see that there are strings



                                    >



                                    > attached and that it's a one-way friend-



                                    >



                                    > ship.



                                    >



                                    > BTW- Would a "True Friend" charge



                                    >



                                    > you, his friend, $15 for a photo of



                                    >



                                    > himself, or give it to you... free of



                                    >



                                    > charge? Hmmmmmm.



                                    >



                                    > On another note, I saw how Klemp can



                                    >



                                    > make even more money from his image.



                                    >



                                    > HK's ear, in this portrait, makes it look



                                    >



                                    > as though he has a big hole running



                                    >



                                    > through his head. So, maybe HK could



                                    >



                                    > have an 18k gold charm made of his head.



                                    >



                                    > The chain would go through his ears!



                                    >



                                    > He can sell this charm, EK jewelry, for



                                    >



                                    > $500.00-800. 00! And, of course, HK



                                    >



                                    > will get his cut of 50% royalties just as



                                    >


                                    =0
                                    A
                                    > he does with portraits, books, etc.



                                    >



                                    > Prometheus



                                    >



                                    &

                                    gt;



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                                    >



                                    >



                                    > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger

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