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Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, I thought I d bring this back for another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas Ever to mention the Jupiter and Venus connection with the EK Masters when speaking
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 6, 2009
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      Hello All,
      I thought I'd bring this back for
      another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas
      Ever to mention the Jupiter and
      Venus connection with the EK
      Masters when speaking to seekers?
      Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas
      ever to mention the lifetime "service"
      requirement to new seekers? No,
      again! I wonder, why Not? Too
      much Truth... they'd get spiritual
      indigestion!!!

      - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -

      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING
      1984 writes:

      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,
      The world is never without him, for the line
      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
      from JUPITER."

      Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods
      (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!
      Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!

      Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from
      Clarion! Klemp even has this planet
      mentioned in his EK Lexicon--

      "CLARION. A planet where higher
      evolved Souls are living to help carry
      on the work of GOD throughout the
      universe."

      Etznab wrote:

      More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.

      "Eckankar was brought here from Venus
      by a little known race which is living in
      Agam Des, and whom we know as the
      Eshwar Khanewale [last two words
      in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.
      These beings are members of the Ancient
      Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.
      They attained their name, the god-eaters,
      from the fact that they absorb cosmic
      energies instead of assimilating plants
      and other foods." [my brackets]

      Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,
      Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,
      p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell

      ******************************************

      prometheus wrote:
      >
      Klemp is a scammer and his followers
      are gullible New Age wannabes!
      >
      How can rational and intelligent people
      believe in this crap! Most ECKists came
      from orthodox religions that taught
      similar fiction and myth. And, these
      Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the
      New Age ones have complex dogmas
      and glowing "spiritual" testimonials
      of miracles, visitations by angels and/or
      Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!
      >
      All religions rely upon the current
      LEADER's ability to control and manipulate
      the imaginations of his believers!
      >
      I'm still wondering how Klemp can say
      that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED
      HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"
      when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:

      "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL
      Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD
      through the worlds, through the Planes
      and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds
      of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.
      At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds
      of matter--some of the newly formed
      planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and
      THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little
      world of EARTH.

      Many CAME to the EARTH planet and
      formed the consciousness of man in
      the flesh temple of the human body,
      to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,
      and take up the burdens of karma until
      at last, one day, each would be ready
      to return to the heavenly home." [end]

      I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
      5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
      1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
      that man was "placed here by colonists
      from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
      secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
      Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
      are expected to "serve."
      >
      Here's an interesting definition from
      Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):
      >
      "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE
      which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN
      of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM
      was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the
      FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of
      the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."
      >
      It's true that Twitchell was a professional
      liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit
      stole the words and ideas of others without
      giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories
      of spiritual experiences from chelas written
      in Initiate Reports and letters in order to
      use these as "inspiration" for his books that
      he receives 50% royalties on!
      >
      Prometheus
      >
      ************************************************
      ETZNAB WROTE:
      Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up
      when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone
      mistranslated it to begin with.
      >
      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and
      all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under
      the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of
      years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the
      empire throughout the world. [....]"
      >
      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
      Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,
      1986, p. 97 ]
      >
      "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all
      its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the
      crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands
      of years ago. [....]"
      >
      [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
      Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]
      >
      It looks like someone got rid of that reference
      to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took
      until 1988!

      prometheus wrote:
      > >
      Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)
      "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:
      > >
      "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.
      The world is never without him, for the line
      of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST
      ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists
      from JUPITER."
      > >
      ME: WOW! JUPITER!
      > >
      When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"
      in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is
      the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!
      > >
      People in this Current ROOT RACE, according
      to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from
      JUPITER!"
      > >
      Where are the other RACES from?
      > >
      Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?
      I don't think sooooo!!!
      > >
      What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES
      from?
      > >
      Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far
      Far Away? That sounds like the makings for
      another Klemp story! Yawn!
      > >
      Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that
      Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi
      Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was
      covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!
      > >
      This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your
      question to the inner" works in Eckankar!
      > >
      Prometheus
      > >
      P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or
      just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the
      Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter
      too, or were they from somewhere else? Did
      we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we
      aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?
      > >
      Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All
      the Universes (Klemp) have access to more
      of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)
      for his contradictions of information? Or, does
      Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)
      and is more focused upon those Souls residing
      on the Inner Planes? LOL!
      > >
      I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound
      sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield
      Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could
      it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced
      by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
    • etznab@aol.com
      Prometheus, You illustrated: I don t see how Klemp got it that the 5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the 1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially, that man was
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
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        Prometheus,

        You illustrated:

        I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the
        5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the
        1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,
        that man was "placed here by colonists
        from JUPITER." This is another dirty little
        secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!
        Another dirty little secret is that ECKists
        are expected to "serve."

        That was a good point, I thought. Because
        legends, myths, fables and folktales are part
        of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not
        in the beginning, they seep in over time when
        people speculate about what they read, and /
        or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo
        (man-made) religion / history are a part of the
        organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However
        when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &
        actually happened I believe people have every
        right to challenge such allegations.

        Here are some examples. The early manu-
        scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The
        Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later
        1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books
        by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.

        These are examples about truth vs. fiction -
        not because I absolutely know all the details -
        but because the subject is "suspicious" and
        /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.

        Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal
        Singh round about the mid 50s when the two
        manuscripts were reportedly written.

        In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his
        0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.

        In one of your past posts (I don't have the #
        or date) you wrote:

        "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on
        his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came
        back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second
        was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."

        I think that information was mentioned in Ford
        Johnson's book, too.

        Consider what Doug Marman gave back around
        the year 2000:

        ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but
        did nothing with the book until he offered it to
        Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues
        With The Master around 1956, from the refer-
        ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.
        Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but
        didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion
        Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's
        writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't
        published until 1970."

        [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]

        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm

        I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-
        cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of
        them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal
        Singh.

        Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal
        Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in
        Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson
        wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"
        by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.

        =0
        A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,
        since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-
        scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar
        terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh
        reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.
        And it might possibly have been in the possession
        of Eckankar for a number of years.

        According to Kirpal Singh?

        "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,
        The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-
        ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.
        He changed that book before printing; where he men-
        tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."

        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm

        My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh
        dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.
        MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED
        THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS
        BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY
        THAT NAME!

        Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early
        manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it
        has the manuscript in its possession.

        There has been controversy over when the name of
        Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date
        I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an
        illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is
        the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang
        manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs
        given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was
        it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?
        If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar
        it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who
        came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?

        *************************************************************

        Those were examples because I have mostly seen
        the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't
        have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.

        If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,
        that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs
        does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would
        have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to
        the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.

        I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.
        One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And
        in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.

        Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.
        (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The
        Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in
        Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may
        have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into
        that path in 1963. So ...?

        Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to
        have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's
        Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the
        name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.

        I have asked ab
        out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.
        Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-
        Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-
        ists. Even long-time members from the early days.

        Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right
        to have the truth.

        I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.

        Etznab


        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!








        Hello All,

        I thought I'd bring this back for

        another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas

        Ever to mention the Jupiter and

        Venus connection with the EK

        Masters when speaking to seekers?

        Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas

        ever to mention the lifetime "service"

        requirement to new seekers? No,

        again! I wonder, why Not? Too

        much Truth... they'd get spiritual

        indigestion!!!



        - Aryans Are From JUPITER! -



        Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

        "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING

        1984 writes:



        "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,

        The world is never without him, for the line

        of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

        ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

        from JUPITER."



        Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods

        (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D

        Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



        Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from

        Clarion! Klemp even has this planet

        mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



        "CLARION. A planet where higher

        evolved Souls are living to help carry

        on the work of GOD throughout the

        universe."



        Etznab wrote:



        More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



        "Eckankar was brought here from Venus

        by a little known race which is living in

        Agam Des, and whom we know as the

        Eshwar Khanewale [last two words

        in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.

        These beings are members of the Ancient

        Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.

        They attained their name, the god-eaters,

        from the fact that they absorb cosmic

        energies instead of assimilating plants

        and other foods." [my brackets]



        Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,

        Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,

        p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



        ******************************************



        prometheus wrote:

        >

        Klemp is a scammer and his followers

        are gullible New Age wannabes!

        >

        How can rational and intelligent people

        believe in this crap! Most ECKists came

        from orthodox religions that taught

        similar fiction and myth. And, these

        Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the

        New Age ones have complex dogmas

        and glowing "spiritual" test
        imonials

        of miracles, visitations by angels and/or

        Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!

        >

        All religions rely upon the current

        LEADER's ability to control and manipulate

        the imaginations of his believers!

        >

        I'm still wondering how Klemp can say

        that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED

        HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"

        when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



        "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL

        Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD

        through the worlds, through the Planes

        and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds

        of the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.

        At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds

        of matter--some of the newly formed

        planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and

        THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little

        world of EARTH.



        Many CAME to the EARTH planet and

        formed the consciousness of man in

        the flesh temple of the human body,

        to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,

        and take up the burdens of karma until

        at last, one day, each would be ready

        to return to the heavenly home." [end]



        I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

        5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

        1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

        that man was "placed here by colonists

        from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

        secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

        Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists

        are expected to "serve."

        >

        Here's an interesting definition from

        Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):

        >

        "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE

        which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN

        of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM

        was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the

        FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of

        the RACES OF MAN upon EARTH."

        >

        It's true that Twitchell was a professional

        liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit

        stole the words and ideas of others without

        giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories

        of spiritual experiences from chelas written

        in Initiate Reports and letters in order to

        use these as "inspiration" for his books that

        he receives 50% royalties on!

        >

        Prometheus

        >

        ************************************************

        ETZNAB WROTE:

        Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up

        when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone

        mistranslated it to begin with.

        >

        "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and

        all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under

        the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of

        years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the

        empire throughout the world. [....]"

        >

        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

        Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,

        1986, p. 97 ]

        >

        0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all

        its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under the

        crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands

        of years ago. [....]"

        >

        [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,

        Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]

        >

        It looks like someone got rid of that reference

        to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took

        until 1988!



        prometheus wrote:

        > >

        Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)

        "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:

        > >

        "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.

        The world is never without him, for the line

        of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST

        ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists

        from JUPITER."

        > >

        ME: WOW! JUPITER!

        > >

        When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"

        in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is

        the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!

        > >

        People in this Current ROOT RACE, according

        to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from

        JUPITER!"

        > >

        Where are the other RACES from?

        > >

        Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?

        I don't think sooooo!!!

        > >

        What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES

        from?

        > >

        Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far

        Far Away? That sounds like t
        he makings for

        another Klemp story! Yawn!

        > >

        Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that

        Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi

        Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was

        covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!

        > >

        This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your

        question to the inner" works in Eckankar!

        > >

        Prometheus

        > >

        P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or

        just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the

        Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter

        too, or were they from somewhere else? Did

        we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we

        aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?

        > >

        Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All

        the Universes (Klemp) have access to more

        of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)

        for his contradictions of information? Or, does

        Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)

        and is more focused upon those Souls residing

        on the Inner Planes? LOL!

        > >

        I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound

        sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield

        Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could

        it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced

        by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
      • etznab@aol.com
        About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or something he heard / read? For some reason I thought
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
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          About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul Twitchell
          got that idea? Was it from an actual experience? or
          something he heard / read?

          For some reason I thought about Scientology. I then
          searched for keywords Scientology & from Jupiter.

          ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

          L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
          of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing" can
          raise your abilities to the point where you "know" something
          directly rather than having to discover it or learn it. He spoke
          authoritatively about life in the solar system. He claimed that
          Jupiter was inhabited by people who looked like Eskimos.
          You can hear him say it at:

          http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

          http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

          Coincidence?

          I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
          certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
          believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
          writers for a time.

          Etznab





          -----Original Message-----
          From: etznab@...
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:04 pm
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From
          JUPITER!








          Prometheus,



          You illustrated:



          I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

          5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

          1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

          that man was "placed here by colonists

          from JUPITER." This is20another dirty little

          secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

          Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

          are expected to "serve."



          That was a good point, I thought. Because

          legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

          of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

          in the beginning, they seep in over time when

          people speculate about what they read, and /

          or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

          (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

          organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

          when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

          actually happened I believe people have every

          right to challenge such allegations.



          Here are some examples. The early manu-

          scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

          Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

          1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

          by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



          These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

          not because I absolutely know all the details -

          but because the subject is "suspicious" and

          /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



          Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

          Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

          manuscripts were reportedly written.



          In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

          0A"wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



          In one of your past posts (I don't have the #=0
          D

          or date) you wrote:



          "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

          his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

          back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

          was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



          I think that information was mentioned in Ford

          Johnson's book, too.



          Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

          the year 2000:



          ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

          did nothing with the book until he offered it to

          Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

          With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

          ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

          Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

          didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

          Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

          writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

          published until 1970."



          [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



          I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

          cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

          them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

          Singh.



          Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

          Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

          Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

          wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

          by Rebazar T
          arzs to Paul Twitchell.



          =0

          A Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

          since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

          scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

          terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

          reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

          And it might possibly have been in the possession

          of Eckankar for a number of years.



          According to Kirpal Singh?



          "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

          The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

          ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

          He changed that book before printing; where he men-

          tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



          My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

          dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

          MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

          THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

          BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

          THAT NAME!



          Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

          manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer, if it

          has the manuscript in its possession.



          There has been controversy over when the name of

          Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

          I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

          illustrated Rebazar Tarzs h
          istory prior to that, where is

          the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

          manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

          given in the first20Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

          it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

          If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

          it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

          came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



          *************************************************************



          Those were examples because I have mostly seen

          the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

          have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



          If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

          that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

          does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

          have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

          the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



          I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

          One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

          in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



          Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

          (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

          Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

          Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

          have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

          that path in 1963. So ...?




          Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

          have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

          Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

          name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



          I have asked ab

          out all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

          Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

          Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

          ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



          Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

          to have the truth.



          I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



          Etznab



          -----Original Message-----

          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>

          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 9:27 pm

          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp: Aryans Are From JUPITER!



          Hello All,



          I thought I'd bring this back for



          another laugh. Are ECK Vahanas



          Ever to mention the Jupiter and



          Venus connection with the EK



          Masters when speaking to seekers?



          Of course Not! Are EK Vahanas



          ever to mention the lifetime "service"



          requirement to new seekers? No,



          again! I wonder, why Not? Too



          much Truth... they'd get spiritual



          indigestion!!!



          - Aryans Are Fr
          om JUPITER! -



          Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



          "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING



          1984 writes:



          "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master,



          The world is never without him, for the line



          of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



          ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



          from JUPITER."



          Yes! Eckankar has more space Gods



          (i.e.ECK Masters) than they want to admit!0D



          Gakko and Rami Nuri are from VENUS!



          Dap Ren (Darwin Gross) was from



          Clarion! Klemp even has this planet



          mentioned in his EK Lexicon--



          "CLARION. A planet where higher



          evolved Souls are living to help carry



          on the work of GOD throughout the



          universe."



          Etznab wrote:



          More "space-people" & Eckankar trivia.



          "Eckankar was brought here from Venus



          by a little known race which is living in



          Agam Des, and whom we know as the



          Eshwar Khanewale [last two words



          in italics], or simply as the God-eaters.



          These beings are members of the Ancient



          Brotherhood, or Order, of the Vairagi.



          They attained their name, the god-eaters,



          from the fact that they absorb cosmic



          energies instead of assimilating plants



          and other20foods." [my brackets]



          Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers,



          Copyright 1971, 2nd printing 1987,



          p. 100 (3rd paragraph) Paul Twitchell



          ******************************************



          prometheus wrote:



          >



          Klemp is a scammer and his followers



          are gullible New Age wannabes!



          >



          How can rational and intelligent people



          believe in this crap! Most ECKists came



          from orthodox religions that taught



          similar fiction and myth. And, these



          Old Orthodox religions, as well as, the



          New Age ones have complex dogmas



          and glowing "spiritual" test

          imonials



          of miracles, visitations by angels and/or



          Masters, etc. just as Eckankar does!



          >



          All religions rely upon the current



          LEADER's ability to control and manipulate



          the imaginations of his believers!



          >



          I'm still wondering how Klemp can say



          that the Aryan Root Race was "PLACED



          HERE [earth] BY COLONISTS from JUPITER"



          when in the Shariyat 1, CH 3 it states:



          "The floor of Heaven opened; and ALL



          Souls went TUMBLING DOWNWARD



          through the worlds, through the Planes



          and Regions of light, darkness, the sounds



          =0
          Aof the wild winds, the Universes and Heavens.



          At last, Each came to rest upon the worlds



          of matter--some of the newly formed



          planets of VENUS, SATURN, JUPITER, and



          THOSE NAMED BY MAN from this little



          world of EARTH.



          Many CAME to the EARTH planet and



          formed the consciousness of man in



          the flesh temple of the human body,



          to wear the cloth of misery and unhappiness,



          and take up the burdens of karma until



          at last, one day, each would be ready



          to return to the heavenly home." [end]



          I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



          5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



          1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



          that man was "placed here by colonists



          from JUPITER." This is another dirty little



          secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



          Another dirty little20secret is that ECKists



          are expected to "serve."



          >



          Here's an interesting definition from



          Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon (pg. 162):



          >



          "POLARIANS. The First ROOT RACE



          which lived in POLARA, the GARDEN



          of EDEN; the ADAMIC RACE; ADOM



          was the FIRST MAN and EDE, the



          FIRST WOMAN; the BEGINNING of



          the RACES OF
          MAN upon EARTH."



          >



          It's true that Twitchell was a professional



          liar and plagiarist, but Klemp is too! Twit



          stole the words and ideas of others without



          giving them credit. Klemp steals the stories



          of spiritual experiences from chelas written



          in Initiate Reports and letters in order to



          use these as "inspiration" for his books that



          he receives 50% royalties on!



          >



          Prometheus



          >



          ************************************************



          ETZNAB WROTE:



          Paul Twitchell himself seems to have messed up



          when mentioning the Arayans too. Unless someone



          mistranslated it to begin with.



          >



          "[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and



          all its colonial empire came about by gas pockets under



          the crust of the earth some hundreds of thousands of



          years ago. It was a land of the Aryans who spread the



          empire throughout the world. [....]"



          >



          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



          Book Two, seventh printing, 1982, p. 97 & eighth printing,



          1986, p. 97 ]



          >



          0A"[....] The destruction of the kingdom of Lemuria and all



          its colonial empire came about by gas po
          ckets under the



          crust of the earth that formed some hundreds of thousands



          of years ago. [....]"



          >



          [Based on: Paul Twitchell, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,



          Book Two, Second Edition - 1988, p. 112]



          >



          It looks like someone got rid of that reference



          to Aryans in the Satya Yuga. And it only took



          until 1988!



          prometheus wrote:



          > >



          Harold Klemp (LEM/Mahanta)



          "The Wisdom Notes" SPRING 1984:



          > >



          "... the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master.



          The world is never without him, for the line



          of ECK Adepts ORIGINATED BEFORE the FIRST



          ARYAN PEOPLE were placed here by colonists



          from JUPITER."



          > >



          ME: WOW! JUPITER!



          > >



          When one looks at the definition for "ARYAN,"



          in Klemp's EK LexiCON, he states that this is



          the FIFTH and Current ROOT RACE!



          > >



          People in this Current ROOT RACE, according



          to Klemp, "were placed here by colonists from



          JUPITER!"



          > >



          Where are the other RACES from?



          > >



          Is this JUPITER thing mentioned in any ECK Brochure?



          I don't think sooooo!!!
          =0
          A


          > >



          What planets were the other "Previous" ROOT RACES



          from?



          > >



          Was "Atlantis" a place in another Galaxy Far



          Far Away? That sounds like t

          he makings for



          another Klemp story! Yawn!



          > >



          Really! Do ECKists remember this comment that



          Klemp made as a newer member of the Vairagi



          Order in the Spring of 1984? I never did! It was



          covered up and never mentioned again wasn't it!



          > >



          This is how the "Law of Silence" or "take your



          question to the inner" works in Eckankar!



          > >



          Prometheus



          > >



          P.S. Am I missing something? Were both or



          just the "colonists" from JUPITER? Were the



          Aryans being "placed here" (earth) from Jupiter



          too, or were they from somewhere else? Did



          we Aryans come from test tubes, or were we



          aliens from Clarion and enslaved by the Jupiterians?



          > >



          Shouldn't the Highest Consciousness in All



          the Universes (Klemp) have access to more



          of this info in order to give some clarity (excuse)



          for his contradictions of information? Or, does



          Klemp have his head in the clouds (or sand)


          0A
          and is more focused upon those Souls residing



          on the Inner Planes? LOL!



          > >



          I must admit the JUPITER thing does sound



          sort of fictional (like Star Wars or Battlefield



          Earth). Lies do build upon one another! Could



          it be that Klemp, early on, was influenced



          by L. Ron Hubbard as much as Twitchell was!
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Etznab, At one time Twitchell was a high ranking member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron was his original source of compiled info on Jupiter. Thus, this
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Etznab,
            At one time Twitchell was a high ranking
            member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
            was his original source of "compiled" info
            on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's
            handed-down source since he tends to use
            other people (usually dead) as inspiration
            for his "EK wisdom."

            As far as Marman goes... he speculates...
            a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!

            Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who
            inspired him to take his piles of "research"
            and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963
            when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame
            GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's
            had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's
            kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must
            be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role
            by thinking she'd helped people who were
            desperate to believe in something more than
            what they had with their former orthodox
            religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and
            other cult-like religions can say and do the
            same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent
            than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's
            new buds. Gail should do the right thing and
            jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could
            even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and
            post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or
            Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to
            clear her conscience and protect those Souls
            whom she helped to delude.

            BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say
            that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang
            manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.
            Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/
            written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,
            a book of poetry?

            Prometheus

            Etznab wrote:
            About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul
            Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual
            experience? or something he heard / read?

            For some reason I thought about Scientology.
            I then searched for keywords Scientology &
            from Jupiter.

            ESKIMOS ON JUPITER

            L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science
            of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"
            can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"
            something directly rather than having to discover it
            or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the
            solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited
            by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him
            say it at:

            http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram

            http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm

            Coincidence?

            I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and
            certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I
            believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction
            writers for a time.

            Etznab



            Prometheus,
            You illustrated:

            I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the

            5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the

            1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,

            that man was "placed here by colonists

            from JUPITER." This is another dirty little

            secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!

            Another dirty little secret is that ECKists

            are expected to "serve."


            That was a good point, I thought. Because

            legends, myths, fables and folktales are part

            of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not

            in the beginning, they seep in over time when

            people speculate about what they read, and /

            or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo

            (man-made) religion / history are a part of the

            organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However

            when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &

            actually happened I believe people have every

            right to challenge such allegations.


            Here are some examples. The early manu-

            scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The

            Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later

            1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books

            by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



            These are examples about truth vs. fiction -

            not because I absolutely know all the details -

            but because the subject is "suspicious" and

            /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



            Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal

            Singh round about the mid 50s when the two

            manuscripts were reportedly written.



            In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his

            "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



            In one of your past posts (I don't have the #

            or date) you wrote:



            "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on

            his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came

            back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second

            was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



            I think that information was mentioned in Ford

            Johnson's book, too.



            Consider what Doug Marman gave back around

            the year 2000:



            ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but

            did nothing with the book until he offered it to

            Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues

            With The Master around 1956, from the refer-

            ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.

            Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but

            didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion

            Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's

            writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't

            published until 1970."



            [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



            I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-

            cause Paul includes him in the two books. One of

            them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal

            Singh.



            Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal

            Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in

            Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson

            wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"

            by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.


            Although I don't absolutely know all the details,

            since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-

            scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar

            terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh

            reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

            And it might possibly have been in the possession

            of Eckankar for a number of years.



            According to Kirpal Singh?



            "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,

            The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-

            ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.

            He changed that book before printing; where he men-

            tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



            My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh

            dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.

            MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED

            THE TIGER'S FANG MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS

            BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY

            THAT NAME!



            Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early

            manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,

            if it has the manuscript in its possession.



            There has been controversy over when the name of

            Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date

            I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an

            illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is

            the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang

            manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs

            given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was

            it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?

            If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar

            it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who

            came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



            *************************************************************



            Those were examples because I have mostly seen

            the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't

            have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



            If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,

            that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs

            does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I would

            have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to

            the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



            I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.

            One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And

            in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



            Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.

            (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The

            Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in

            Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may

            have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into

            that path in 1963. So ...?



            Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to

            have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's

            Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the

            name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



            I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.

            Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-

            Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-

            ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



            Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right

            to have the truth.



            I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



            Etznab
          • etznab@aol.com
            Prometheus, I ve often wondered about Gail & Patti - ever since I started researching & posting as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was it 2005-2007? I think
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 10, 2009
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Prometheus,

              I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
              ever since I started researching & posting
              as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
              it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
              around there.

              It's a big question mark, to me, about
              whatever happened to Gail's involvement
              with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
              for so many years? However, I don't think
              Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
              mystery anymore, either, whether or not
              she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
              believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
              she was not any longer active. Instead of
              going into the details about this, my recoll-
              ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
              the story in her own time, in her own way.

              About how many books Paul Twitchell
              finished before 1966, I think I see your
              point.

              Etznab


              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:06 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
              JUPITER!








              Hello Etznab,

              At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

              member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

              was his original source of "compiled" info

              on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

              handed-down source since he tends to use

              other people (usually dead) as inspiration

              for his "EK wisdom."



              As far as Marman goes...
              he speculates...

              a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



              Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

              inspired him to take his piles of "research"

              and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

              when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

              GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

              had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

              kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

              be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

              by thinking she'd helped people who were

              desperate to believe in something more than

              what they had with their former orthodox

              religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

              other cult-like religions can say and do the

              same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

              than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

              new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

              jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

              even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

              post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

              Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

              clear her conscience and protect those Souls

              whom she helped to delude.



              BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

              that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

              manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

              Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

              written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

              a book of poetry?
              0D


              Prometheus



              Etznab wrote:

              About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

              Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

              experience? or something he heard / read?



              For some reason I thought about Scientology.

              I then searched for keywords Scientology &

              from Jupiter.



              ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



              L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

              of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

              can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

              something directly rather than having to discover it

              or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

              solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

              by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

              say it at:



              http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



              http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



              Coincidence?



              I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

              certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

              believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

              writers for a time.



              Etznab



              Prometheus,

              You illustrated:



              I don't see how Klemp "got it" that the



              5th ARYAN ROOT RACE came before the



              1st POLARIAN ROOT RACE and, especially,



              that man was "placed here by colonists



              from JUPITER." This is another dirty little




              secret that EK VAHANAS can't speak of!



              Another dirty little secret is that ECKists



              are expected to "serve."



              That was a good point, I thought. Because



              legends, myths, fables and folktales are part



              of organized religious dogma, IMO. And if not



              in the beginning, they seep in over time when



              people speculate about what they read, and /



              or what they were told. Fiction and pseudo



              (man-made) religion / history are a part of the



              organized religion legacy, too (IMO). However



              when the latter gets taken literally, as if true &



              actually happened I believe people have every



              right to challenge such allegations.



              Here are some examples. The early manu-



              scripts of Dialogues With The Master and The



              Tiger's Fang were written around mid to later



              1950's (reportedly). Today the Eckankar books



              by those names feature Rebazar Tarzs.



              These are examples about truth vs. fiction -



              not because I absolutely know all the details -



              but because the subject is "suspicious" and



              /or requires additional scrutiny, IMO.



              Paul Twitchell had associations with Kirpal



              Singh round about the mid 50s when the two



              manuscripts were reportedly written.

              0A

              In 1963, I believe, Paul Twitchell took his



              "wife to be" to get initiated by Kirpal Singh.



              In one of your past posts (I don't have the #



              or date) you wrote:



              "Kirpal Singh initiated Paul Twitchell in 1955 on



              his first visit to the United States. Kirpal came



              back to the U.S. on two other visits. The second



              was in 1963-64 and the third was in 1972."



              I think that information was mentioned in Ford



              Johnson's book, too.



              Consider what Doug Marman gave back around



              the year 2000:



              ".... Paul wrote The Tiger's Fang in 1957, but



              did nothing with the book until he offered it to



              Kirpal Singh in 1963. Paul wrote Dialogues



              With The Master around 1956, from the refer-



              ences I have seen, but didn't publish it until 1970.



              Paul also wrote The Flute of God in 1959, but



              didn't put it into print until 1966, in the Orion



              Magazine series. This pattern is similar to Paul's



              writing of The Far Country in 1963, which wasn't



              published until 1970."



              [Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 6]



              http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Six.htm



              I find the Rebazar Tarzs history controversial be-



              cause Paul includes him in the two book
              s. One of



              them written one year after being initiated by Kirpal



              Singh.



              Also, the Tiger's Fang manuscript sent to Kirpal



              Singh in 1963 and the number of paragraphs in



              Eckankar books mirroring what Julian Johnson



              wrote in 1939. In some places apparently "spoken"



              by Rebazar Tarzs to Paul Twitchell.



              Although I don't absolutely know all the details,



              since I have not necessarily seen the early manu-



              scripts (before revisions and additions of Eckankar



              terms), I did take note of the fact that Kirpal Singh



              reportedly DID RETURN the Tiger's Fang manuscript.



              And it might possibly have been in the possession



              of Eckankar for a number of years.



              According to Kirpal Singh?



              "Later he sent me another letter, 'Return my book,



              The Tiger's Fang.' I returned his book. That was dict-



              ated by me on the inner planes, and that's all right.



              He changed that book before printing; where he men-



              tioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name."



              http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch._Two.htm



              My point is not necessarily whether Kirpal Singh



              dictated and / or should have any credit for the book.



              MY POINT IS THAT HE APPARENTLY RETURNED



              THE TIGER'S FAN
              G MANUSCRIPT - AND YEARS



              BEFORE ECKANKAR PUBLISHED THE BOOK BY



              THAT NAME!



              Was the name Rebazar Tarzs featured in the early



              manuscript? Eckankar should know that answer,



              if it has the manuscript in its possession.



              There has been controversy over when the name of



              Rebazar Tarzs first appeared in print. The popular date



              I saw was 1964. However, if one were to search for an



              illustrated Rebazar Tarzs history prior to that, where is



              the evidence for it? Is it in that early The Tiger's Fang



              manuscript? Pre-1963? Was the name Rebazar Tarzs



              given in the first Letter to Gail in December 1962? Was



              it in the original Dialogues With The Master manuscript?



              If these documents are in the possession of Eckankar



              it could settle a lot of controversy (IMO) about who



              came to Paul Twitchell? and exactly when?



              *************************************************************



              Those were examples because I have mostly seen



              the later revised versions of Eckankar books and don't



              have access to (haven't seen) all the earlier history.



              If it ever turns out true, beyond a reasonable doubt,



              that Kirpal Singh once appeared where Rebazar Tarzs



              does now - in Paul Twitchell's writings - then I wo
              uld



              have a case for saying that something "seeped in" to



              the written works of Paul Twitchell over time.



              I've seen multiple apparent timelines for Rebazar T.



              One that has him appearing after Paul met Gail. And



              in 1963 when Paul started writing The Far Country.



              Why are there so many paragraphs by Rebazar T.



              (in The Far Country) similar to what appears in The



              Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson? The ones in



              Johnson's book are closer to what Kirpal Singh may



              have endorsed, and Gail was reportedly initiated into



              that path in 1963. So ...?



              Of course, for verifiable evidence, one would have to



              have the early Dialogues With The Master, The Tiger's



              Fang and original Letters to Gail to confirm what is the



              name that appears. Kirpal Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, etc.



              I have asked about all of those, at E.S.C. and A.R.E.



              Before that, I may have inquired at the original The Truth-



              Seeker Bulletin Board. I asked current and former Eck-



              ists. Even long-time members from the early days.



              Good questions Prometheus. I think you have a right



              to have the truth.



              I would call this a certain form of being a vahana.



              Etznab








              0D
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Etznab, I figured Patti had left EKankar since she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar Board the day after Klemp & his new Board went after Darwin. Joan
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 12, 2009
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Etznab,
                I figured Patti had left EKankar since
                she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar
                Board the day after Klemp & his new Board
                went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take
                Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,
                the same day as the resignation. Apparently
                Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand
                in the wings, and await, until opportunity
                comes a knocking.

                Prometheus


                Prometheus,

                I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -
                ever since I started researching & posting
                as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was
                it 2005-2007? I think it was some time
                around there.

                It's a big question mark, to me, about
                whatever happened to Gail's involvement
                with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence
                for so many years? However, I don't think
                Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a
                mystery anymore, either, whether or not
                she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I
                believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that
                she was not any longer active. Instead of
                going into the details about this, my recoll-
                ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell
                the story in her own time, in her own way.

                About how many books Paul Twitchell
                finished before 1966, I think I see your
                point.

                Etznab


                prometheus wrote:

                Hello Etznab,

                At one time Twitchell was a high ranking

                member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron

                was his original source of "compiled" info

                on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's

                handed-down source since he tends to use

                other people (usually dead) as inspiration

                for his "EK wisdom."


                As far as Marman goes... he speculates...

                a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who

                inspired him to take his piles of "research"

                and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963

                when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame

                GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's

                had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's

                kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must

                be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role

                by thinking she'd helped people who were

                desperate to believe in something more than

                what they had with their former orthodox

                religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and

                other cult-like religions can say and do the

                same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent

                than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's

                new buds. Gail should do the right thing and

                jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could

                even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and

                post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or

                Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to

                clear her conscience and protect those Souls

                whom she helped to delude.



                BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say

                that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang

                manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.

                Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/

                written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,

                a book of poetry?



                Prometheus



                Etznab wrote:

                About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul

                Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual

                experience? or something he heard / read?



                For some reason I thought about Scientology.

                I then searched for keywords Scientology &

                from Jupiter.



                ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science

                of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"

                can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"

                something directly rather than having to discover it

                or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the

                solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited

                by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him

                say it at:



                http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                Coincidence?



                I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and

                certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I

                believe Twitchell and Hubbard were both science fiction

                writers for a time.



                Etznab
              • etznab@aol.com
                Prometheus, I wasn t aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I had the impression she was removed. Here is why: Another interesting development in the August 7
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Prometheus,

                  I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                  had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                  "Another interesting development in the August
                  7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                  of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                  Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                  of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                  resolution, summarily removed from this position
                  and told that

                  ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                  both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                  ediately. [....]

                  "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                  ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                  immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                  current term of Secretary."

                  [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                  A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234] 

                  Etznab

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Fri, Jun 12, 2009 11:56 pm
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp: Aryans Are From
                  JUPITER!








                  Hi Etznab,

                  I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                  she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                  Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                  went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                  Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                  the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                  Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                  in the win
                  gs, and await, until opportunity

                  comes a knocking.



                  Prometheus



                  Prometheus,



                  I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                  ever since I started researching & posting

                  as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                  it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                  around there.



                  It's a big question mark, to me, about

                  whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                  with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                  for so many years? However, I don't think

                  Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                  mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                  she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                  believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                  she was not any longer active. Instead of

                  going into the details about this, my recoll-

                  ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                  the story in her own time, in her own way.



                  About how many books Paul Twitchell

                  finished before 1966, I think I see your

                  point.



                  Etznab



                  prometheus wrote:



                  Hello Etznab,



                  At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                  member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                  was his original source of "compiled" info



                  on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                  handed-down source since he tends to use



                  other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                  for his "EK wisdom."

                  0D

                  As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                  a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                  Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                  inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                  and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                  when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                  GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                  had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                  kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                  be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                  by thinking she'd helped people who were



                  desperate to believe in something more than



                  what they had with their former orthodox



                  religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                  other cult-like religions can say and do the



                  same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                  than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                  new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                  jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                  even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                  post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                  Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                  clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                  whom she helped to delude.



                  BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                  =0
                  A
                  that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                  manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                  Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                  written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                  a book of poetry?



                  Prometheus



                  Etznab wrote:



                  About life on Jupiter, I wondered where Paul



                  Twitchell got that idea? Was it from an actual



                  experience? or something he heard / read?



                  For some reason I thought about Scientology.



                  I then searched for keywords Scientology &



                  from Jupiter.



                  ESKIMOS ON JUPITER



                  L. Ron Hubbard described Scientology as the science



                  of "knowing how to know". The idea is that "auditing"



                  can raise your abilities to the point where you "know"



                  something directly rather than having to discover it



                  or learn it. He spoke authoritatively about life in the



                  solar system. He claimed that Jupiter was inhabited



                  by people who looked like Eskimos. You can hear him



                  say it at:



                  http://www.xs4all.nl/~xemu/rams/Jupiter.ram



                  http://www.skeptictank.org/cossumfl.htm



                  Coincidence?



                  I'd bet that Paul Twitchell was not the only person, and



                  certainly not the first, to write of life on other planets. I



                  believe Twitchell and Hubbard were
                  both science fiction



                  writers for a time.



                  Etznab
                • prometheus_973
                  Hi Etznab, If I could access the Truth-Seeker site I would show the minutes from the meeting where officers and trustees were appointed along with a long
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 13, 2009
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Etznab,
                    If I could access the Truth-Seeker
                    site I would show the minutes from
                    the meeting where officers and trustees
                    were appointed along with a long discussion
                    of what to do about Darwin. Patti was
                    appointed as Secretary during this very
                    long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.
                    A recess was taken and the meeting was
                    to resume the very next day.

                    However, Patti resigned the next day after
                    having the night to think or dream about
                    what was being done to Darwin by Klemp
                    and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan
                    documented the details differently, after
                    Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"
                    when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-
                    up began early on. A "resolution" was simply
                    done to officially accept Patti's resignation.
                    Another motion and "vote" was made into
                    a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty
                    position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman
                    to ask Patti how it went down, according to
                    her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!

                    Prometheus
                    p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather
                    than take his word for what she has to say.


                    etznab wrote:

                    Prometheus,

                    I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I
                    had the impression she was removed. Here is why:

                    "Another interesting development in the August
                    7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,
                    of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],
                    Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary
                    of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by
                    resolution, summarily removed from this position
                    and told that

                    ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,
                    both such removal and termination being effective imm-
                    ediately. [....]

                    "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was

                    ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective
                    immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the
                    current term of Secretary."

                    [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,
                    A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â

                    Etznab

                    Prometheus wrote:


                    Hi Etznab,

                    I figured Patti had left EKankar since

                    she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar

                    Board the day after Klemp & his new Board

                    went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take

                    Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,

                    the same day as the resignation. Apparently

                    Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand

                    in the wings, and await, until opportunity

                    comes a knocking.



                    Prometheus



                    Prometheus,



                    I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -

                    ever since I started researching & posting

                    as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was

                    it 2005-2007? I think it was some time

                    around there.



                    It's a big question mark, to me, about

                    whatever happened to Gail's involvement

                    with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence

                    for so many years? However, I don't think

                    Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a

                    mystery anymore, either, whether or not

                    she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I

                    believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that

                    she was not any longer active. Instead of

                    going into the details about this, my recoll-

                    ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell

                    the story in her own time, in her own way.



                    About how many books Paul Twitchell

                    finished before 1966, I think I see your

                    point.



                    Etznab



                    prometheus wrote:



                    Hello Etznab,



                    At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                    member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                    was his original source of "compiled" info



                    on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                    handed-down source since he tends to use



                    other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                    for his "EK wisdom."



                    As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                    a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                    Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                    inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                    and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                    when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                    GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                    had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                    kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                    be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                    by thinking she'd helped people who were



                    desperate to believe in something more than



                    what they had with their former orthodox



                    religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                    other cult-like religions can say and do the



                    same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                    than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                    new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                    jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                    even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                    post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                    Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                    clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                    whom she helped to delude.



                    BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say


                    =0
                    A
                    that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                    manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                    Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                    written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                    a book of poetry?



                    Prometheus
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    Prometheus, Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this what I had read. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 16, 2009
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Prometheus,

                      Thanks for sharing that. I only knew about this
                      what I had read.

                      Etznab

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                      Removed!








                      Hi Etznab,

                      If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                      site I would show the minutes from

                      the meeting where officers and trustees

                      were appointed along with a long discussion

                      of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                      appointed as Secretary during this very

                      long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                      A recess was taken and the meeting was

                      to resume the very next day.



                      However, Patti resigned the next day after

                      having the night to think or dream about

                      what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                      and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                      documented the details differently, after

                      Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                      when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                      up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                      done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                      Another motion and "vote" was made into

                      a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                      position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                      to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                      her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                      =0
                      APrometheus

                      p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                      than take his word for what she has to say.



                      etznab wrote:



                      Prometheus,



                      I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                      had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                      "Another interesting development in the August

                      7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                      of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                      Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                      of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                      resolution, summarily removed from this position

                      and told that



                      ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                      both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                      ediately. [....]



                      "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                      ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                      immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                      current term of Secretary."



                      [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                      A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                      Etznab



                      Prometheus wrote:



                      Hi Etznab,



                      I figured Patti had left EKankar since



                      she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                      Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                      went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                      Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                      the same day as th
                      e resignation. Apparently



                      Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                      in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                      comes a knocking.



                      Prometheus



                      Prometheus,



                      I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                      ever since I started researching & posting



                      as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                      it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                      around there.



                      It's a big question mark, to me, about



                      whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                      with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                      for so many years? However, I don't think



                      Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                      mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                      she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                      believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                      she was not any longer active. Instead of



                      going into the details about this, my recoll-



                      ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                      the story in her own time, in her own way.



                      About how many books Paul Twitchell



                      finished before 1966, I think I see your



                      point.



                      Etznab



                      prometheus wrote:



                      Hello Etznab,



                      At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                      member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron
                      0A


                      was his original source of "compiled" info



                      on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                      handed-down source since he tends to use



                      other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                      for his "EK wisdom."



                      As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                      a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                      Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                      inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                      and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                      when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                      GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                      had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                      kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                      be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                      by thinking she'd helped people who were



                      desperate to believe in something more than



                      what they had with their former orthodox



                      religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                      other cult-like religions can say and do the



                      same. Therefore, Gail is more the KAL agent



                      than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                      new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                      jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                      even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                      post so
                      me tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                      Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                      clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                      whom she helped to delude.



                      BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                      =0

                      A

                      that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                      manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                      Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                      written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                      a book of poetry?



                      Prometheus
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      Something else for this thread. From The Truth-Seeker site. It doesn t have to do with the August 7th, 1983 meeting. Not unless that was the time when Patti
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 27, 2009
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Something else for this thread. From The
                        Truth-Seeker site.

                        It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                        1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                        time when Patti became not active. My
                        guess was it refers to some time later.

                        [....]

                        A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                        an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                        Freeman

                        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                        I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                        Doug's response:

                        "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                        fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                        not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                        rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                        http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                        I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                        a response, but I assume it was February
                        2004. The 16th?

                        Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                        Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                        until days later, but I think the link where he
                        did respond is currently not working.

                        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                        Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                        guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                        the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                        Forum link.

                        There are a number of links (more than a few)
                        on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                        the present time.

                        At any rate, according to D
                        oug (apparently)
                        Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                        at least.

                        I don't know when Patti became not active,
                        or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                        terminated or resigned from her position of
                        Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                        it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                        that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                        future wife.

                        Etznab





                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 1:17 am
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Patti Resigned and Was Not
                        Removed!








                        Hi Etznab,

                        If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                        site I would show the minutes from

                        the meeting where officers and trustees

                        were appointed along with a long discussion

                        of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                        appointed as Secretary during this very

                        long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                        A recess was taken and the meeting was

                        to resume the very next day.



                        However, Patti resigned the next day after

                        having the night to think or dream about

                        what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                        and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                        documented the details differently, after

                        Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                        when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                        up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                        done to officiall
                        y accept Patti's resignation.

                        Another motion and "vote" was made into

                        a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                        position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                        to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                        her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                        Prometheus

                        p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                        than take his word for what she has to say.



                        etznab wrote:



                        Prometheus,



                        I wasn't aware that Patti S. resigned. Instead, I

                        had the impression she was removed. Here is why:



                        "Another interesting development in the August

                        7 meeting was the appointment, by resolution,

                        of Patricia Simpson Rivinus [married in 1983],

                        Paul Twitchell's secretary, as the new secretary

                        of Eckankar. Only one day later, she was, by

                        resolution, summarily removed from this position

                        and told that



                        ... her services as an officer are hereby terminated,

                        both such removal and termination being effective imm-

                        ediately. [....]



                        "Joan Cross (later Harold's wife) was



                        ... appointed as Secretary of Eckankar, effective

                        immediately, to serve the unexpired portion of the

                        current term of Secretary."



                        [See: Ford Johnson, Confessions of a God Seeker,

                        A Journey to Higher Consciousness, p. 233-234]Â



                        Etznab



                        Prometheus wrote:



                        Hi Etznab,



                        I
                        figured Patti had left EKankar since



                        she resigned as Secretary to the ECKankar



                        Board the day after Klemp & his new Board



                        went after Darwin. Joan was voted to take



                        Patti's position as Secretary, immediately,



                        the same day as the resignation. Apparently



                        Joan took lessons from Harry on how to stand



                        in the wings, and await, until opportunity



                        comes a knocking.



                        Prometheus



                        Prometheus,



                        I've often wondered about Gail & Patti -



                        ever since I started researching & posting



                        as far back as The TruthSeeker B.B. Was



                        it 2005-2007? I think it was some time



                        around there.



                        It's a big question mark, to me, about



                        whatever happened to Gail's involvement



                        with Eckankar. Why the apparent silence



                        for so many years? However, I don't think



                        Patti has been so silent. I don't think it a



                        mystery anymore, either, whether or not



                        she is a member of Eckankar. At least, I



                        believe it was alluded to by Doug M. that



                        she was not any longer active. Instead of



                        going into the details about this, my recoll-



                        ection is that Doug wanted to let Patti tell



                        the story in her own time, in her own way.



                        About how=2
                        0many books Paul Twitchell



                        finished before 1966, I think I see your



                        point.



                        Etznab



                        prometheus wrote:



                        Hello Etznab,



                        At one time Twitchell was a high ranking



                        member of Scientology. It seems L. Ron



                        was his original source of "compiled" info



                        on Jupiter. Thus, this now becomes Klemp's



                        handed-down source since he tends to use



                        other people (usually dead) as inspiration



                        for his "EK wisdom."



                        As far as Marman goes... he speculates...



                        a lot... and then calls it the Whole Truth! LOL!



                        Plus, according to Twitchell, it was GAIL who



                        inspired him to take his piles of "research"



                        and do something with it. Wasn't it 1963



                        when PT met, GAIL, his coconspirator! I blame



                        GAIL for the fraud more than Twitchell! She's



                        had all of these years to right a wrong, but she's



                        kept silent. The sin of omission! She, too, must



                        be a narcissist! GAIL has rationalized her role



                        by thinking she'd helped people who were



                        desperate to believe in something more than



                        what they had with their former orthodox



                        religions. Except, Scientology, etc., etc., and



                        other cult-like religions can say and do the



                        same. Therefore, Gai
                        l is more the KAL agent



                        than Paul. Yet, she and Patti seem to be Marman's



                        new buds. Gail should do the right thing and



                        jerk the rug out from under Klemp. Gail could



                        even come on this site (ESA) Anonymously and



                        post some tidbits about Twit, Gross, Klemp, or



                        Ginn, or Skelsky, etc. She really does need to



                        clear her conscience and protect those Souls



                        whom she helped to delude.



                        BTW, on another note, didn't Marman say



                        =0

                        A

                        that Kirpal didn't return the Tiger's Fang



                        manuscript to Twit until around June, 1966.



                        Thus, the only book PT had completely compiled/



                        written, and printed, prior to 1965 was, maybe,



                        a book of poetry?



                        Prometheus
                      • prometheus_973
                        Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of figured that Patti wasn t active in ECKankar since she was talking so highly about Ram Dass recently. And, since she
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 2, 2009
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks for the info Etznab. I kind of
                          figured that Patti wasn't active in ECKankar
                          since she was talking so highly about Ram
                          Dass recently. And, since she hasn't kept
                          her EK Membership current, this means
                          that her consciousness is now around
                          that of a current 2nd Initiate! Wow! From
                          8th to 2nd just because of a few bucks
                          ($$$)! Actually, would a real spiritual
                          "path" charge money to maintain one's
                          (Soul's) inner plane level of consciousness?
                          Well, yes! Because all of this (religions, etc.)
                          is of the physical and Not the spiritual.
                          That's why they sell books and other
                          materials and require "requested" donations!
                          The only "free lunch" (freedom) comes
                          when Soul eliminates the middleman!

                          Prometheus


                          Etznab wrote:
                          Something else for this thread. From The
                          Truth-Seeker site.

                          It doesn't have to do with the August 7th,
                          1983 meeting. Not unless that was the
                          time when Patti became not active. My
                          guess was it refers to some time later.

                          [....]

                          A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still
                          an Eckist? I send all who read this my love

                          Freeman

                          http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                          I believe this is a record TO FREEMAN of
                          Doug's response:

                          "[....] I know that Patti does still feel very
                          fond feelings toward Paul, but she is also
                          not active in Eckankar. Past that, I would
                          rather she answer the rest for herself. [....]"

                          http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=310

                          I'm not sure of the date when Doug gave
                          a response, but I assume it was February
                          2004. The 16th?

                          Freeman's question is dated February 9th.

                          http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                          Doug Marman doesn't appear to respond
                          until days later, but I think the link where he
                          did respond is currently not working.

                          http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=315&page=164

                          Although Doug posted on the 22nd, my
                          guess is that he responed to Freeman on
                          the 16th. That was the date on the Vanilla
                          Forum link.

                          There are a number of links (more than a few)
                          on the new TruthSeeker site that don't work at
                          the present time.

                          At any rate, according to Doug (apparently)
                          Patti was "not active in Eckankar" in 2004 -
                          at least.

                          I don't know when Patti became not active,
                          or why. Neither do I know whether she was
                          terminated or resigned from her position of
                          Eckankar Secretary in 1983. In Ford's book
                          it read, to me, like she was terminated from
                          that position and replaced by Joan, Harold's
                          future wife.

                          Etznab



                          Hi Etznab,

                          If I could access the Truth-Seeker

                          site I would show the minutes from

                          the meeting where officers and trustees

                          were appointed along with a long discussion

                          of what to do about Darwin. Patti was

                          appointed as Secretary during this very

                          long meeting that went until 10:00 p.m.

                          A recess was taken and the meeting was

                          to resume the very next day.



                          However, Patti resigned the next day after

                          having the night to think or dream about

                          what was being done to Darwin by Klemp

                          and his new crew (EK Board). Apparently Joan

                          documented the details differently, after

                          Patti left, by showing that Patti was "removed"

                          when, in fact, she resigned. Thus, HK's cover-

                          up began early on. A "resolution" was simply

                          done to officially accept Patti's resignation.

                          Another motion and "vote" was made into

                          a resolution to appoint joan to fill the empty

                          position. Anyway, why don't you ask Marman

                          to ask Patti how it went down, according to

                          her, and get it straight from the horse's mouth!



                          Prometheus

                          p.s. Tell Marman to have Patti email you rather

                          than take his word for what she has to say.
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