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Re: When Will Klemp Mention Darwin Gross' Death?

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  • mishmisha9
    Just a few comments in response to what ratapesce wrote: You state, When will Harold Klemp inform people that Darwin Gross has translated and is now dead?
    Message 1 of 7 , May 7, 2009
      Just a few comments in response to what
      ratapesce wrote:

      "You state, "When will Harold Klemp inform people
      that Darwin Gross has translated and is now dead?"

      The fact is Darwin Gross is no longer part of Eckankar.
      Therefore, Darwin Gross does not affect Eckankar today.

      Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to do whatever
      he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever he wants.

      He can translate whenever he chooses to do so and
      that is his business. Darwin gross is no longer connected
      with Eckankar.

      So there is no need to mention of his translation.

      By the way Harold Klemp does not inform the world
      of the translations of many other souls. For example,
      many souls translated in the Gulf War. Eckankar did
      not provide the world with a detailed list of the names
      of the souls that translated during the Gulf War. It was
      simply not necessary to do so.

      I hope this answers your question."

      *************************************************************

      Hi, Ratapesce!

      Glad you are reading ESA. Many eckists would close their
      eyes to this site, but the fact that you are reading some of
      the posts might be a good start for you finding the truth
      about Klemp and eckankar. Perhaps, you have spent a lot
      of time devoted to the teachings . . . and in order for them
      to work, you need to rationalize what is not really apparent
      due in part to Klemp's silence as in the case of Darwin's
      death and the fact that eckankar promotes secrecy. Not to
      mention it is really an org. created and based on lies.

      Anyway, your explanation for why Klemp has not announced
      Darwin Gross' death is really second guessing your mahanta.
      Do you really know for certain why Klemp has kept silent?
      Many eckists (mostly 6ths and 7ths today) joined eckankar
      under Darwin and were given many initiations from him. Although,
      I didn't know Darwinmyself, I understand that he was very
      charismatic and personable--qualities lacking in Klemp btw.
      I read on a few sites where present eckists who knew Darwin
      made some very thoughtful and kind comments upon his passing.
      Yet,Klemp could not open his heart or acknowledge Darwin's
      passing himself. I would suspect that many eckists are
      disappointed by this.

      I find your comments, "Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to
      do whatever he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever
      he wants" rather odd in two ways. One, are you giving Darwin
      permission to do whatever he wants to do? And second, as for Soul
      being free to do whatever Soul wants . . . I don't think that is
      accurate. Regardless, there are always limitations and
      repercussions. I am wondering if this is the sort of freedom
      that eckists seek and believe eckankar is selling?


      And your next comment, "he (Darwin) can translate whenever he
      chooses to do so and that is his business." Is not exactly
      accurate either. Most of us do not have that ability to choose
      when we die . . . including Klemp!!!! Exception would be suicide.
      Twitchell, Gross and Klemp are/were all mortal and unlike
      "Those Wonderful Eck Masters" they age and die. Of course,
      those wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't
      change or die . . . they never lived!! I saw some recent pics of
      Klemp and oh, my--he certainly hasn't slowed the aging
      process . . . you'd think he'd have some power to at least look
      somewhat youthful. But no, he's looking extremely old--maybe
      older than most his age!! Why is that, one should wonder?

      I think that in order for you to continue to believe in Klemp
      and the eckankar teachings, you, along with other eckists, have
      to do many twists and turns in rationalizing what Klemp says
      and teaches. There is a lot of second guessing and much time
      spent in trying to figure out what the hell Klemp meant in one
      silly talk and then another. Lots of wasted time to make the
      teachings valid and useful, eh?? But in the case of Darwin's
      death, it is a sin of omission.

      You have not offered any logical explanation to the question
      "when will Klemp mention Darwin Gross' Death"--however,
      you offer as evidence the delusional thinking that eckists develop
      when trying to make sense out of nonsense, and the pity is this
      is exactly what Klemp and eckankar promotes and expects from
      its followers. Logical thinking is something that cannot be used in
      eckankar . . . at all! It is a nutty belief system.

      Your comments actually make me feel very sad! But I hope you
      will hang around and keep reading. Check out the archives and if
      you become a member you can also access the files. Don't worry
      that by joining, we'd consider you to be a former eckist like
      most of us. We do have a few eckists who read and post. You
      certainly are free to enter and learn. Perhaps, one day you will
      see things differently.

      Best wishes,

      Mish
    • Gnothe Seauton
      Hello All,Eck Rat states the following to justify why Klemp Did Not mention the 972nd LEM s, Darwin Gross, death (translation): By the way, Harold Klemp
      Message 2 of 7 , May 8, 2009
        Hello All,
        Eck Rat states the following to justify why Klemp 
        Did Not mention the 972nd LEM's, Darwin Gross, 
        death (translation):

        "By the way, Harold Klemp does not inform the world 
        of the translations of many other souls. For example, 
        many souls translated in the Gulf War. Eckankar did 
        not provide the world with a detailed list of the names 
        of the souls that translated during the Gulf War. It was 
        simply not necessary to do so."

        Of course, this is an illogical remark since the NEWS 
        media reports these soldiers' deaths. 

        However, are any of these soldiers EKists or friends 
        and relatives of EKists? 

        Wouldn't these soldiers, too, be under the "protection" 
        of the All Knowing/All Powerful Mahanta? Those who 
        were killed means Klemp wasn't doing his job, or living 
        up to his promises! This is WHY Klemp doesn't mention 
        (omits) any of these soldier's deaths (translations) 
        even though there might be a direct correlation and 
        tie-in to ECKists and to the M/LEM. Klemp is turning
        out to be a very minor "god," and a deceiver!

        However, let's get back to Why Klemp Did Not mention 
        Darwin's death. This is actually a much different sin of
        omission since Harry knew Darwin personally. Klemp 
        worked for Darwin at the ESC and was on DG's Literary
        Council and had meetings with Darwin. Darwin and
        his, then, wife had dinner with Harry and Marge. HK 
        was initiated, many times, by Darwin on both the outer 
        and inner planes (6-12)! 

        I remember reading in Klemp's book "Soul Travelers
        of the Far Country" (Chapter 7) that Darwin was 
        postponing making Klemp the LEM on Oct, 1980. 
        Klemp said that he was upset with the postponement 
        and when he got home he shared the news with his, 
        then, first wife Marge. Marge said to Harry, "Why 
        can't you be happy with just being an ECK Master?" 

        In May or June, 1980 Darwin had given Harry his 
        8th initiation. [For some reason (bait & switch?) 
        EKists have been led to believe that they can become 
        "EK Masters" after receiving the 8th initiation when 
        it's actually the 12th initiation that makes them 
        "eligible" to become EK Masters (Chapter 12, Shariyat- 
        Ki-Sugmad, Book 2)] 

        Darwin later (May or June 1981) gave Klemp his 
        9th (Soul Travelers of the Far Country, CH 7). That 
        means that Darwin, also, gave Klemp the 10th and 
        11th initiations and later, (Oct. 22, 1981), the 12th!  

        Anyway, this is, also, why Klemp needed to get
        rid of Darwin - so that he could become the Top 
        Dog and the Mahanta! He couldn't do that as
        long as Darwin, the Mahanta, was around. 

        Well, we don't really know if Darwin was
        actually the "Mahanta" (according to Klemp),
        and Darwin, years later, said that there was 
        only one New Age Mahanta and that was 
        Twitchell (for the next 1,000 years).

        But Darwin was given a "blue" carnation by 
        Gail at the 1971 EWWS. And, every ECKist 
        between 1971-1981 believed that Darwin was 
        the Mahanta. EKists saw DG (Dap Ren) on 
        the High Inner Planes and had "Mahanta" 
        ekperiences with him. Thus, Harry had to 
        depose Darwin in order to be the TOP DOG 
        (Mahanta) and not just a LEM! 

        Thus, we Now have more insight into WHY 
        Klemp didn't mention Darwin's death. Klemp 
        didn't want to take the EK Spotlight off himself. 
        He's vindictive, intolerant, lacks empathy, is 
        unloving, holds onto grudges and is two faced... 
        like the Astral Plane KAL! 

        Prometheus

        --- On Wed, 5/6/09, ratapesce <ratapesce@...> wrote:

        From: ratapesce <ratapesce@...>
        Subject: Re: When Will Klemp Mention Darwin Gross' Death?
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 5:52 PM

        You state, "When will Harold Klemp inform people
        that Darwin Gross has translated and is now dead?"

        The fact is Darwin Gross is no longer part of Eckankar.
        Therefore, Darwin Gross does not affect Eckankar today.

        Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to do whatever
        he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever he wants.

        He can translate whenever he chooses to do so and
        that is his business. Darwin gross is no longer connected
        with Eckankar.

        So there is no need to mention of his translation.

        By the way Harold Klemp does not inform the world
        of the translations of many other souls. For example,
        many souls translated in the Gulf War. Eckankar did
        not provide the world with a detailed list of the names
        of the souls that translated during the Gulf War. It was
        simply not necessary to do so.

        I hope this answers your question.


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      • mishmisha9
        This message was sent to my email on Sept. 20, 2009--sorry Ratapesce, I just found it as I don t often check my emails . . . I hope you don t mind that I copy
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 6, 2009
          This message was sent to my email on Sept. 20, 2009--sorry Ratapesce, I just found it as I don't often check my emails . . . I hope you don't mind that I copy and pasted your comments here as they are a follow up to the discussion thread regarding Klemp's silence on Darwin's death. Obviously, Ratapesce finds logic of little use regarding belief in religions and I have to agree with him because there is little or no logic to be found in most religious teachings . . . Anyway, I find Ratapesce's comments interesting and I do agree also that it is his right to believe or follow whatever he wants as long as it is legal to do so! : )

          BTW, I am not angry about eckankar but I am interested in Truth. Eckankar and Klemp are rather amusing to me! LOL!

          Here's the message . . . thank you, Ratapesce:


          Hello Mish,

          First I thank you for your response to my post. I am glad someone actually took the time to read it and consider its contents. The following is my response to whay you wrote.

          I am open to anything and everything. Matter of fact I have been criticized, laughed at, ridiculed and who kinows what else during my lifetime. This has just made me stronger and has allowed me to truly know what I believe in. Only when someone tries very hard to challenge one's faith can one truly discover what they truly believe in. In my case I am a firm believer of Eckankar and I will do so for the rest of my life. What other people believe is really up to them. As Mother Teresa said "in the end it was never between you and them. It was always between you and God". So who one chooses God to be is up to them. As for me I know Sugmad, the Mahanta and Eckankar are for me. You have to decide what is right for you. I can not tell you what to do in that respect.

          You mention the truth about Klemp and to rationalize what is not really apparent due in part to Klemp's silence... it is really an org. created and based on lies. I have never tried to rationalize Eckankar or anything associtaed with Eckankar. A religion must be experienced, not rationalized. The mind uses logic to rationalize. This is the trap many philosophies fall into. They try to rationalize everything and soon realize that a lot of things just don't make any sense. Is Eckankar based on lies? Does anyone really know the true fabric of the universe? Does anyone really know the origins of man? Does anyone truly know why George Bush went to war against Iraq? Does anyone really know if the September 11, 2001 bombing was a done by AL-Qaeda or some other organization? What may appear to be truth today may appear to be a lie tomorrow and vice versa. Only a select few really know what occurs and I am not one of them. So I do not spend my energies trying to rationalize Religion or Christianity or Judaism or Eckankar or Islam or ATOM. It's really up to the individual what they want to believe in.

          You do not accept my statement that Darwin is free to do what he wants to do and that Soul is free to do what it wants to do and Darwin is free to do whatever he wants to do. The following is one of my experiences. A few years ago I had a heart attack. There I lay on the hospital bed being operated on. I wake up and I am talking to the Mahanta. The Mahanta asks me what I want to do. I reply I want to raise my children. I want to be there for my children and be their father. Shortly thereafter I wake up and the surgeon tells me I had a heart attack. I was surprised by what he said. A couple of years later a Higher Initiate in Eckankar informed me I was supposed to die during my heart attack. But I did not die. Instead I chose to live. The Mahanta allowed me to live even though my time was up and I should have translated. So you see as Soul we are free to do what we want. Of course that choice to live has responsibilities. Nothing is free. So you see as Soul we are free to choose what we want. We have free will. I read in a book once that a certain yogi was talking to his disciples. He then sat down and informed them his time was up. He layed down and translated. So you see some souls do know when they will die. He knew ahead of time when his time was up. It is very possible that Darwin knew when he was translating.

          You make the following statement:
          "Those Wonderful Eck Masters they age and die. Of course, those wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't change or die . . . they never lived!!" Have you mentioned this to members of ATOM. So they use Boucharan Masters and not Eck Masters. They look like the same Masters to me. Maybe they do exist and maybe they don't exist. Would you believe me if I told you I actually spoke to a few of them in my dreams? Would you call me a nut case? You see we all have different experiences. Just because you have never met anyone does not mean they don't exist. I never met Stephen Harper. But I believe he exists.

          Then you state Klemp certainly hasn't slowed the aging process. On planet earth we all have physical bodies. Paul Twitchell had a physical body. I have a physical body and Harold Klemp has a physical body. Any powers that we have should be used wisely. If someone is able to change their body such that it does not get old, then good for them. How many humans do you know that will never die? It's only a physical body. Maybe the human race was designed to have a physical body which gets old and dies? Maybe Klemp's body is attacked by the Kal and can only take so much? Maybe Paul Twitchell's body was also attacked by the Kal and it got old too? Maybe Darwin's body got attacked by the Kal and got old too? The point is who really cares if anyone can make their bodies immortal? I believe my soul is immortal and that is all that counts. My physical body is only temporary.

          Overall I sense that you are upset at Eckankar and at Harold Klemp. One of the fundamental principles of any true religion is the Golden Heart. Eckankar makes reference to the Golden Heart all the time. Give Love to all and hatred to none. Harold Klemp does not wish anyone any harm. Fact is Darwin left Eckankar many years ago. He left long before I joined Eckankar. So I can truly say I know very little of Darwin. I googled his name a few times just to see what he was doing. I found the website of ATOM.org. I read what was in it and then left. I concluded Darwin found his own path and I was happy for him

          Now we come to when Klemp will mention Darwin's death. I have no idea if Harold Klemp will ever make a public statement concerning the death of Darwin Gross. If it makes you feel better Wikipedia states Darwin Gross died on March 8, 2008. I hope that makes you feel better. Now maybe we can all be happy and try to get along as a species. The Kal is very good at manipulating us and testing us. Do you see the tricks of the Kal? The Kal is very,very good at what it does. Everytime someone has a negative emotion it is because the Kal was able to get to them. Imagine if you were a true God Realized Master. Would anything really get to you? Would you get angry?
          Think about this and then you will see how the Kal plays tricks with us and tries to fool us. The trick is to get to a point where the Kal can't affect you anymore. Now this is very hard to do. It is almost impossible to do. But we try anyway.

          So be cool, get down and stay loose, bro. It isn''t worth getting upset about. The whole physical un iverse is one huge computer program called the Matrix and Kal Niranjan or the Devil or whatever name you want to give it created this computer program. The sooner you realize this the better it will be for you. Try rationalizing that just for fun. You want a real challenge, try rationalizing the Matrix we live in. Very soon you will see the tricks of the Kal Niranjan.

          Be cool, hang loose and stay calm, bro. And whatever you do, don't get angry.

          Baraka Bashad,

          Ratapesce.

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Just a few comments in response to what
          > ratapesce wrote:
          >
          > "You state, "When will Harold Klemp inform people
          > that Darwin Gross has translated and is now dead?"
          >
          > The fact is Darwin Gross is no longer part of Eckankar.
          > Therefore, Darwin Gross does not affect Eckankar today.
          >
          > Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to do whatever
          > he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever he wants.
          >
          > He can translate whenever he chooses to do so and
          > that is his business. Darwin gross is no longer connected
          > with Eckankar.
          >
          > So there is no need to mention of his translation.
          >
          > By the way Harold Klemp does not inform the world
          > of the translations of many other souls. For example,
          > many souls translated in the Gulf War. Eckankar did
          > not provide the world with a detailed list of the names
          > of the souls that translated during the Gulf War. It was
          > simply not necessary to do so.
          >
          > I hope this answers your question."
          >
          > *************************************************************
          >
          > Hi, Ratapesce!
          >
          > Glad you are reading ESA. Many eckists would close their
          > eyes to this site, but the fact that you are reading some of
          > the posts might be a good start for you finding the truth
          > about Klemp and eckankar. Perhaps, you have spent a lot
          > of time devoted to the teachings . . . and in order for them
          > to work, you need to rationalize what is not really apparent
          > due in part to Klemp's silence as in the case of Darwin's
          > death and the fact that eckankar promotes secrecy. Not to
          > mention it is really an org. created and based on lies.
          >
          > Anyway, your explanation for why Klemp has not announced
          > Darwin Gross' death is really second guessing your mahanta.
          > Do you really know for certain why Klemp has kept silent?
          > Many eckists (mostly 6ths and 7ths today) joined eckankar
          > under Darwin and were given many initiations from him. Although,
          > I didn't know Darwinmyself, I understand that he was very
          > charismatic and personable--qualities lacking in Klemp btw.
          > I read on a few sites where present eckists who knew Darwin
          > made some very thoughtful and kind comments upon his passing.
          > Yet,Klemp could not open his heart or acknowledge Darwin's
          > passing himself. I would suspect that many eckists are
          > disappointed by this.
          >
          > I find your comments, "Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to
          > do whatever he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever
          > he wants" rather odd in two ways. One, are you giving Darwin
          > permission to do whatever he wants to do? And second, as for Soul
          > being free to do whatever Soul wants . . . I don't think that is
          > accurate. Regardless, there are always limitations and
          > repercussions. I am wondering if this is the sort of freedom
          > that eckists seek and believe eckankar is selling?
          >
          >
          > And your next comment, "he (Darwin) can translate whenever he
          > chooses to do so and that is his business." Is not exactly
          > accurate either. Most of us do not have that ability to choose
          > when we die . . . including Klemp!!!! Exception would be suicide.
          > Twitchell, Gross and Klemp are/were all mortal and unlike
          > "Those Wonderful Eck Masters" they age and die. Of course,
          > those wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't
          > change or die . . . they never lived!! I saw some recent pics of
          > Klemp and oh, my--he certainly hasn't slowed the aging
          > process . . . you'd think he'd have some power to at least look
          > somewhat youthful. But no, he's looking extremely old--maybe
          > older than most his age!! Why is that, one should wonder?
          >
          > I think that in order for you to continue to believe in Klemp
          > and the eckankar teachings, you, along with other eckists, have
          > to do many twists and turns in rationalizing what Klemp says
          > and teaches. There is a lot of second guessing and much time
          > spent in trying to figure out what the hell Klemp meant in one
          > silly talk and then another. Lots of wasted time to make the
          > teachings valid and useful, eh?? But in the case of Darwin's
          > death, it is a sin of omission.
          >
          > You have not offered any logical explanation to the question
          > "when will Klemp mention Darwin Gross' Death"--however,
          > you offer as evidence the delusional thinking that eckists develop
          > when trying to make sense out of nonsense, and the pity is this
          > is exactly what Klemp and eckankar promotes and expects from
          > its followers. Logical thinking is something that cannot be used in
          > eckankar . . . at all! It is a nutty belief system.
          >
          > Your comments actually make me feel very sad! But I hope you
          > will hang around and keep reading. Check out the archives and if
          > you become a member you can also access the files. Don't worry
          > that by joining, we'd consider you to be a former eckist like
          > most of us. We do have a few eckists who read and post. You
          > certainly are free to enter and learn. Perhaps, one day you will
          > see things differently.
          >
          > Best wishes,
          >
          > Mish
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Mish and All, This so-called Eckist, Ratapesce, is the typical delusional religious follower! I ll reply to his illogical comments below Mish s.
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 8, 2009
            Hello Mish and All,
            This so-called Eckist, Ratapesce, is the
            typical delusional religious follower!

            I'll reply to his illogical comments below
            Mish's.

            Prometheus

            mish wrote:

            This message was sent to my email on Sept. 20, 2009--sorry Ratapesce, I just
            found it as I don't often check my emails . . . I hope you don't mind that I
            copy and pasted your comments here as they are a follow up to the discussion
            thread regarding Klemp's silence on Darwin's death. Obviously, Ratapesce finds
            logic of little use regarding belief in religions and I have to agree with him
            because there is little or no logic to be found in most religious teachings . .
            . Anyway, I find Ratapesce's comments interesting and I do agree also that it is
            his right to believe or follow whatever he wants as long as it is legal to do
            so! : )

            BTW, I am not angry about eckankar but I am interested in Truth. Eckankar and
            Klemp are rather amusing to me! LOL!

            Here's the message . . . thank you, Ratapesce:


            RATAPESCE WROTE:

            Hello Mish,

            First I thank you for your response to my post. I am glad someone
            actually took the time to read it and consider its contents. The following
            is my response to what you wrote.

            I am open to anything and everything.

            Matter of fact I have been criticized, laughed at, ridiculed and who
            knows what else during my lifetime.

            This has just made me stronger and has allowed me to truly know
            what I believe in.


            P- It has closed your mind and
            made you more delusional via
            your ego protecting your little
            "self" and your little world with
            rationalizations. No religion has
            ever worked for the real Spiritual
            Truth-Seeker! Religions are the
            "Easy Way" for those who like to
            pretend "as if" they are above others
            with initiations, etc.


            Only when someone tries very hard to challenge one's faith can one
            truly discover what they truly believe in. In my case I am a firm believer
            of Eckankar and I will do so for the rest of my life. What other people
            believe is really up to them. As Mother Teresa said "in the end it was
            never between you and them. It was always between you and God".

            P- But Klemp is not God, although, he
            does claim to be higher than Mother
            Teresa's 4th Mental Plane "God."

            So who one chooses God to be is up to them. As for me I know
            Sugmad, the Mahanta and Eckankar are for me. You have to decide
            what is right for you. I can not tell you what to do in that respect.


            P- Well, it Not another manmade religion!
            Hpwever his first statement is illogical.
            An Eckist is Not permitted to be "open
            to anything and everything," especially,
            after the 2nd initiation! And, there are
            Guidelines and Training requirements
            which limit what a chela or H.I. can say
            and do! BTW-What ever happened to
            Eckankar's religious promise (Bait and
            Switch) of Spiritual Freedom and Self-
            Mastery in THIS lifetime? Why hasn't
            Klemp "speeded-up" initiations by now
            and removed the glass ceiling of the
            7th initiation by now?



            You mention the truth about Klemp and to rationalize what
            is not really apparent due in part to Klemp's silence... it is really
            an org. created and based on lies.

            I have never tried to rationalize Eckankar or anything associtaed
            with Eckankar. A religion must be experienced, not rationalized.

            The mind uses logic to rationalize.

            This is the trap many philosophies fall into. They try to rationalize
            everything and soon realize that a lot of things just don't make any
            sense.

            Is Eckankar based on lies? Does anyone really know the true fabric
            of the universe?

            Does anyone really know the origins of man? Does anyone truly know why
            George Bush went to war against Iraq? Does anyone really know if the September
            11, 2001 bombing was a done by AL-Qaeda or some other organization?

            What may appear to be truth today may appear to be a lie tomorrow
            and vice versa.

            Only a select few really know what occurs and I am not one of them.

            So I do not spend my energies trying to rationalize Religion or Christianity
            or Judaism or Eckankar or Islam or ATOM. It's really up to the individual
            what they want to believe in.


            P- Ratapesce is "rationalizing" now! I don't
            think he understands the definition of the
            word rationalize. Experiencing a religion
            is to "rationalize!" Look at the Myth, etc.
            etc.! And, what does the truth of the Universe
            have to do with a conman like Twitchell
            lying? Nothing! This guy, Rata, has his
            head stuck in the sand. He doesn't care
            about Truth if it becomes too inconvenient
            or cause him to actually have to think!


            You do not accept my statement that Darwin is free to do what
            he wants to do and that Soul is free to do what it wants to do and
            Darwin is free to do whatever he wants to do.

            The following is one of my experiences. A few years ago I had a
            heart attack. There I lay on the hospital bed being operated on.
            I wake up and I am talking to the Mahanta.

            The Mahanta asks me what I want to do. I reply I want to raise
            my children. I want to be there for my children and be their father.

            Shortly thereafter I wake up and the surgeon tells me I had a heart
            attack. I was surprised by what he said.

            A couple of years later a Higher Initiate in Eckankar informed me
            I was supposed to die during my heart attack. But I did not die.
            Instead I chose to live.

            The Mahanta allowed me to live even though my time was up and
            I should have translated.

            So you see as Soul we are free to do what we want.

            Of course that choice to live has responsibilities. Nothing is free.

            So you see as Soul we are free to choose what we want. We have free
            will.


            P- Rata is speculating about Darwin. He's already
            said that he doesn't "know" what others know (the
            experts like Klemp). What Rata doesn't realize is
            that the "Mahanta" he was talking to was himself
            (Soul)! I know this because Twit created the Mahanta
            title for himself in Jan. 1969. BTW- If he was supposed
            to die (according to the H.I.) and Rata chose to live
            then who was in charge? He says that the Mahanta
            allowed him to live, but then he states that Soul is
            free to do what "we" want. Rata sounds confused.
            FYI- It's true that "Nothing is free" in Eckankar...
            including the maintaining of one's initiations!



            I read in a book once that a certain yogi was talking to his disciples.
            He then sat down and informed them his time was up. He layed down
            and translated. So you see some souls do know when they will die.
            He knew ahead of time when his time was up. It is very possible that
            Darwin knew when he was translating.


            P- Good one! However this wasn't
            the case for Twitchell... the 1st LEM/M.
            Twitchell died before he could appoint
            a replacement! Therefore, Twitchell
            wasn't even as "high" in consciousness
            as a yogi!


            You (Mish) make the following statement:
            "Those Wonderful Eck Masters they age and die. Of course, those
            wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't change or
            die . . . they never lived!!"

            Have you mentioned this to members of ATOM. So they use Boucharan
            Masters and not Eck Masters. They look like the same Masters to me.
            Maybe they do exist and maybe they don't exist.

            Would you believe me if I told you I actually spoke to a few of them
            in my dreams? Would you call me a nut case?

            You see we all have different experiences. Just because you have never
            met anyone does not mean they don't exist. I never met Stephen Harper.
            But I believe he exists.


            P- The EK Masters are fictional characters
            that Twit created. This is why there is only
            one female EK Master out of thousands of
            fictional "Masters." So what if you "dreamed"
            of seeing them. When one looks at their pictures
            and reads about them with a desire to speak
            to them or see them one will dream of them!
            You've programmed your mind to expect and
            desire this. I've dreamed of them too when
            I was in EK! Big deal! I self-hypnotized myself
            by focusing upon them. BTW- Just because
            we've never met doesn't mean you don't exist
            in matter, energy, space, or time, however,
            these fictional EK masters and angels, and
            Mickey Mouse, etc. only exist in our thoughts,
            dreams, or minds. Wait, Mickey was a bad
            example... I've actually had my picture taken
            with him versus 500 year old Rebazar!
            BTW- ATOM and MSIA are just copies of
            the false teachings of Eckankar which is
            itself a copy of the false Sant Mat (living
            Master) teachings.


            Then you state Klemp certainly hasn't slowed the aging process. On planet
            earth we all have physical bodies. Paul Twitchell had a physical body. I have
            a physical body and Harold Klemp has a physical body. Any powers that
            we have should be used wisely.

            If someone is able to change their body such that it does not get old,
            then good for them.

            How many humans do you know that will never die?
            It's only a physical body.

            Maybe the human race was designed to have a physical body
            which gets old and dies?
            Maybe Klemp's body is attacked by the Kal and can only take so much?
            Maybe Paul Twitchell's body was also attacked by the Kal and it got old too?
            Maybe Darwin's body got attacked by the Kal and got old too?

            The point is who really cares if anyone can make their bodies immortal?
            I believe my soul is immortal and that is all that counts. My physical body
            is only temporary.


            P- WOW! That's a lot of "maybes!" What about
            500 year old Rebazar who has "never died?"
            Klemp is supposed to be the bestest and highest
            Mahanta ever! So, why's he aging this rapidly!
            BTW- Chelas shouldn't be second guessing the
            Mahanta with "maybe" this or "maybe" that.
            As a former H.I. you should take my advice
            on that one. You said, "Who really cares if
            anyone can make their body immortal?"
            You should care because Eckankar is held
            together with the glue of Belief and Faith in
            the 500 year old living Torchbearer... Rebazar
            Tarzs! He's the fill-in LEM for Sudar Singh
            so that Paul could become the 971st LEM,
            and Rebazar filled-in again after Twit died
            until Gail could have Darwin given the title.
            And, "if" all of this isn't true then none of
            the rest is as well. Thus, Klemp is Not a Mahanta
            and your religion is as false as all the others...
            maybe (probably) more so!


            Overall I sense that you are upset at Eckankar and at Harold Klemp. One of the
            fundamental principles of any true religion is the Golden Heart. Eckankar makes
            reference to the Golden Heart all the time. Give Love to all and hatred to none.
            Harold Klemp does not wish anyone any harm. Fact is Darwin left Eckankar many
            years ago. He left long before I joined Eckankar. So I can truly say I know
            very little of Darwin. I googled his name a few times just to see what he was
            doing. I found the website of ATOM.org. I read what was in it and then left. I
            concluded Darwin found his own path and I was happy for him.


            P- Have you been reading "The Way
            of Eckankar Series" of Lectures that
            have been posted here on ESA? Paul
            stated that Love and Wisdom were
            of the lower planes and that the focus
            s/b on the Ultimate and Not upon
            the aspects and attributes of God.
            Besides, this "Golden Heart" talk
            is actually referring to the 4th Astral
            Heart chakra which is even lower
            that the 6th Astral Tisra Til chakra.
            HK's taking his chelas backwards!
            BTW-Why is Klemp fearful of mentioning
            Darwin since he's dead? Can't he say
            something nice. Darwin did give HK
            many initiations... probably the 6-12!
            Actually, it's become too late for Klemp
            to say anything now. Too much time
            has gone by. It does show that Klemp
            holds onto grudges (Anger) even when
            he has gotten the upper hand.



            Now we come to when Klemp will mention Darwin's death.

            I have no idea if Harold Klemp will ever make a public statement
            concerning the death of Darwin Gross.

            If it makes you feel better Wikipedia states Darwin Gross died on March 8, 2008.
            I hope that makes you feel better. Now maybe we can all be happy and try to get
            along as a species. The Kal is very good at manipulating us and testing us.

            Do you see the tricks of the Kal? The Kal is very, very good at what it does.
            Everytime someone has a negative emotion it is because the Kal was able
            to get to them.


            P- The KAL rules all lower plane
            religions and Eckankar is lower
            plane. The EK Books, Talks, Tapes,
            CDs, Jewelry, Donations, ID Cards
            with Numbers and Titles, the RESA
            Hierarchy with positions etc. are
            all of the Lower Planes and KAL
            rules these Planes and tricks those
            in religions! You're right... it's his
            job and he does it well! KAL has
            tricked you, again, blinded you
            to the Truth! You (Soul) will never
            be "free" with the Middleman Mahanta
            codependency.



            Imagine if you were a true God Realized Master. Would anything really
            get to you? Would you get angry?


            P- Klemp gets angry! And, it's
            more than tough love when it
            involves Darwin's death, or a
            non-Eckist like that "Third"
            Temporary Postal Clerk that
            HK had never met!


            Think about this and then you will see how the Kal plays tricks with us and
            tries to fool us. The trick is to get to a point where the Kal can't affect you
            anymore. Now this is very hard to do. It is almost impossible to do. But we try
            anyway.


            P- Yes, yes! We know that Darwin died
            on March 8, 2008, however, most Eckists
            don't! What's funny is that "you" don't see
            the tricks of the KAL or his agent Klemp!
            Klemp was the real Black Magician when
            he tricked Darwin. HK mentions, in his
            Autobiography, that it was his idea to
            meet with Darwin at the ESC where he
            worked in a Sound Proofed Dark Room
            to discuss the transition plans with Darwin.
            The room had been Sound Proofed prior
            to Eckankar buying/renting the building.
            Klemp mentions that, Darwin "hesitated"
            when he found out that it was a Sound
            Proofed Dark Room (No Light and Sound)...
            get it? However, Klemp told him that it
            would be more private to discuss the LEM
            transition details there. BTW-You will have
            to go to Soul Travelers of the Far Country
            (Ch. 7) to see that this room was also Sound
            Proofed. Klemp omits this detail in his
            "Autobiography of a Modern Profit." LOL!
            Anyway, HK realized the implications
            of sharing this "Sound Proof" detail, along
            with the Dark Room detail after-the-fact.
            Thus, he did a rewrite in his Autobiography
            to cover-up this tidbit of truth. Check it
            out for yourself!

            FYI- Klemp got "angry" with that Third
            Temporary Postal Clerk in the 09/2003
            H.I. Letter! Joan was at the Post Office to
            check on a package and didn't want to show
            her I.D., first, before the "Third" fill-in
            clerk went to look for it. Why should he
            look for a package when the customer
            might not have their ID with them... this
            would violate The Law of Economy! Plus,
            neither Joan or Harry realized this or the
            fact that this was a "test" for both of them
            that they Failed! Notice that Klemp mentions
            twice that there were "THREE" fill-in clerks.
            Thus, The Principle of the Threes was
            over-looked as well! Anyhow, Joan got
            all huffy and felt insulted that he didn't
            bow down to her (as they do at the ESC).
            She told Harold about the incident when
            she got home and he got angry and ended
            up writing about it (according to Joan's
            version) in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter. HK was
            angry that Joan's ego was, seemingly, insulted.
            This effect cause HK to write some mean-
            spirited things about the clerk (whom he
            had never met) and shared these feelings
            in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter. Thus, this is
            written proof, in Klemp's own words, that
            he is neither God-Realized or a Master
            Mahanta since he showed ANGER! Read
            it and see for yourself! it's in the FILES.


            So be cool, get down and stay loose, bro. It isn''t worth getting
            upset about. The whole physical universe is one huge computer
            program called the Matrix

            and Kal Niranjan or the Devil or whatever name you want to give
            it created this computer program. The sooner you realize this the
            better it will be for you.

            Try rationalizing that just for fun. You want a real challenge, try
            rationalizing the Matrix we live in. Very soon you will see the tricks
            of the Kal Niranjan.


            P- Actually, in the Shariyat Book 2 index,
            PT has the Devil and Satan listed and
            mentions that this is the KAL... the "God"
            that the 2nd and 4th Plane religions worship
            (Eckankar included). Page 385, in Klemp's
            Autobiography, states this fact. Thus, it's
            Not "whatever name you want to call it."
            It's what you, as an EKist, and as a "follower"
            of Klemp (the LEM/M) calls it!

            BTW- Try living in Reality and with Truth
            versus rationalizing. I'm thinking that the
            word that you were looking for was "imagining"
            (or visualizing) the Matrix versus "rationalizing"
            the Matrix. But, you are correct that it does
            help to pretend and rationalize when dealing
            with mythological religious dogma, distortions,
            embellishments, and their hierarchy (The RESA
            goon squad/police) in order to control their
            gullible, fearful, trusting, and dreamy believers.
            Eckists "need" a religion and the Ruhani Satsang/
            New Age mindset with Twitchell's twist is
            as good as any. That's what makes it sad
            that you've fallen for the scam of religion
            in, yet, another lifetime!


            Be cool, hang loose and stay calm, bro. And whatever you do, don't get angry.

            P- Ditto back at you! However,
            I don't think "Mish" is a "bro".... bro!

            Ratapesce.

            mishmisha wrote:
            >
            >
            > Just a few comments in response to what
            > ratapesce wrote:
            >
            > "You state, "When will Harold Klemp inform people
            > that Darwin Gross has translated and is now dead?"
            >
            > The fact is Darwin Gross is no longer part of Eckankar.
            > Therefore, Darwin Gross does not affect Eckankar today.
            >
            > Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to do whatever
            > he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever he wants.
            >
            > He can translate whenever he chooses to do so and
            > that is his business. Darwin gross is no longer connected
            > with Eckankar.
            >
            > So there is no need to mention of his translation.
            >
            > By the way Harold Klemp does not inform the world
            > of the translations of many other souls. For example,
            > many souls translated in the Gulf War. Eckankar did
            > not provide the world with a detailed list of the names
            > of the souls that translated during the Gulf War. It was
            > simply not necessary to do so.
            >
            > I hope this answers your question."
            >
            > *************************************************************
            >
            > Hi, Ratapesce!
            >
            > Glad you are reading ESA. Many eckists would close their
            > eyes to this site, but the fact that you are reading some of
            > the posts might be a good start for you finding the truth
            > about Klemp and eckankar. Perhaps, you have spent a lot
            > of time devoted to the teachings . . . and in order for them
            > to work, you need to rationalize what is not really apparent
            > due in part to Klemp's silence as in the case of Darwin's
            > death and the fact that eckankar promotes secrecy. Not to
            > mention it is really an org. created and based on lies.
            >
            > Anyway, your explanation for why Klemp has not announced
            > Darwin Gross' death is really second guessing your mahanta.
            > Do you really know for certain why Klemp has kept silent?
            > Many eckists (mostly 6ths and 7ths today) joined eckankar
            > under Darwin and were given many initiations from him. Although,
            > I didn't know Darwinmyself, I understand that he was very
            > charismatic and personable--qualities lacking in Klemp btw.
            > I read on a few sites where present eckists who knew Darwin
            > made some very thoughtful and kind comments upon his passing.
            > Yet,Klemp could not open his heart or acknowledge Darwin's
            > passing himself. I would suspect that many eckists are
            > disappointed by this.
            >
            > I find your comments, "Furthermore, Darwin Gross is welcome to
            > do whatever he wants to do. As Soul he is free to do whatever
            > he wants" rather odd in two ways. One, are you giving Darwin
            > permission to do whatever he wants to do? And second, as for Soul
            > being free to do whatever Soul wants . . . I don't think that is
            > accurate. Regardless, there are always limitations and
            > repercussions. I am wondering if this is the sort of freedom
            > that eckists seek and believe eckankar is selling?
            >
            >
            > And your next comment, "he (Darwin) can translate whenever he
            > chooses to do so and that is his business." Is not exactly
            > accurate either. Most of us do not have that ability to choose
            > when we die . . . including Klemp!!!! Exception would be suicide.
            > Twitchell, Gross and Klemp are/were all mortal and unlike
            > "Those Wonderful Eck Masters" they age and die. Of course,
            > those wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't
            > change or die . . . they never lived!! I saw some recent pics of
            > Klemp and oh, my--he certainly hasn't slowed the aging
            > process . . . you'd think he'd have some power to at least look
            > somewhat youthful. But no, he's looking extremely old--maybe
            > older than most his age!! Why is that, one should wonder?
            >
            > I think that in order for you to continue to believe in Klemp
            > and the eckankar teachings, you, along with other eckists, have
            > to do many twists and turns in rationalizing what Klemp says
            > and teaches. There is a lot of second guessing and much time
            > spent in trying to figure out what the hell Klemp meant in one
            > silly talk and then another. Lots of wasted time to make the
            > teachings valid and useful, eh?? But in the case of Darwin's
            > death, it is a sin of omission.
            >
            > You have not offered any logical explanation to the question
            > "when will Klemp mention Darwin Gross' Death"--however,
            > you offer as evidence the delusional thinking that eckists develop
            > when trying to make sense out of nonsense, and the pity is this
            > is exactly what Klemp and eckankar promotes and expects from
            > its followers. Logical thinking is something that cannot be used in
            > eckankar . . . at all! It is a nutty belief system.
            >
            > Your comments actually make me feel very sad! But I hope you
            > will hang around and keep reading. Check out the archives and if
            > you become a member you can also access the files. Don't worry
            > that by joining, we'd consider you to be a former eckist like
            > most of us. We do have a few eckists who read and post. You
            > certainly are free to enter and learn. Perhaps, one day you will
            > see things differently.
            >
            > Best wishes,
            >
            > Mish
          • ctecvie
            ... ******Hi Mish, Thanks for posting this! I find Ratapesce s comments also interesting and so typical of a religious follower!. I wanted to post this earlier
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 16, 2009
              > This message was sent to my email on Sept. 20, 2009--sorry Ratapesce, I just found it as I don't often check my emails . . . I hope you don't mind that I copy and pasted your comments here as they are a follow up to the discussion thread regarding Klemp's silence on Darwin's death. Obviously, Ratapesce finds logic of little use regarding belief in religions and I have to agree with him because there is little or no logic to be found in most religious teachings . . . Anyway, I find Ratapesce's comments interesting and I do agree also that it is his right to believe or follow whatever he wants as long as it is legal to do so! : )

              ******Hi Mish,

              Thanks for posting this! I find Ratapesce's comments also interesting and so typical of a religious follower!. I wanted to post this earlier but got distracted, but here it is, eventually!

              > BTW, I am not angry about eckankar but I am interested in Truth. Eckankar and Klemp are rather amusing to me! LOL!

              ******I agree because anger would be wasted as eckankar won't go away but I do believe that information about the dark side of eckankar is absolutely necessary as the ekkies tend to describe eckankar as a path of pure love, which it isn't! So, see more comments below

              > Here's the message . . . thank you, Ratapesce:


              > Hello Mish,


              > First I thank you for your response to my post. I am glad someone actually took the time to read it and consider its contents. The following is my response to whay you wrote.>
              I am open to anything and everything. Matter of fact I have been criticized, laughed at, ridiculed and who knows what else during my lifetime. This has just made me stronger and has allowed me to truly know what I believe in. Only when someone tries very hard to challenge one's faith can one truly discover what they truly believe in.

              ******That is sad - but it's certainly not only ekkies who have to endure ridiculisation in their lifetime! I agree though that this kind of experience makes us stronger.

              >In my case I am a firm believer of Eckankar and I will do so for the rest of my life. What other people believe is really up to them. As Mother Teresa said "in the end it was never between you and them. It was always between you and God". So who one chooses God to be is up to them. As for me I know Sugmad, the Mahanta and Eckankar are for me. You have to decide what is right for you. I can not tell you what to do in that respect.

              *****I keep wondering every time somebody talks about god like that, would god really be so interested in what we think?? Doesn't he (or she, or it) have better things to do? I do agree that belief is a very personal thing. I believe in life and its wonders; there is so much to be grateful for! No need for a god in this respect. Furthermore, I have accepted that not every question can be answered and that some don't even require an answer. However, that's what religions are trying all the time - seeking answers and thus keeping the flock - and their money - close to the master! LOL!

              > You mention the truth about Klemp and to rationalize what is not really apparent due in part to Klemp's silence... it is really an org. created and based on lies. I have never tried to rationalize Eckankar or anything associtaed with Eckankar.
              ****** Yeah, as Mish said - that's the point! You don't question eckankar when you'd better! Then, of course, it would fall apart. That's why it's gross to even mention the mind! LOL!

              >A religion must be experienced, not rationalized. The mind uses logic to rationalize. This is the trap many philosophies fall into.
              ****** And the trap the ekkies and the followers of other religions fall into too! It's just the other way round - they fall into the trap of not questioning at all!

              >They try to rationalize everything and soon realize that a lot of things just don't make any sense. Is Eckankar based on lies? Does anyone really know the true fabric of the universe? Does anyone really know the origins of man? Does anyone truly know why George Bush went to war against Iraq? Does anyone really know if the September 11, 2001 bombing was a done by AL-Qaeda or some other organization?
              ****** How important is knowing the absolute truth to all these questions, and what exactly is the "absolute truth"? Doesn't it quite depend on your personal truth/point of view?

              >What may appear to be truth today may appear to be a lie tomorrow and vice versa. Only a select few really know what occurs and I am not one of them. So I do not spend my energies trying to rationalize Religion or Christianity or Judaism or Eckankar or Islam or ATOM. It's really up to the individual what they want to believe in.
              ******I think that not even a select few know it - for me, for a start, there are no "select few"! That's why I don't spend my energy in following any religion and their "masters". Masters are everywhere - in my work and private environment, as colleagues and friends, and I can learn from them anywhere and everywhere. No need to follow fictitional masters and spending money on religious organisations!

              > You do not accept my statement that Darwin is free to do what he wants to do and that Soul is free to do what it wants to do and Darwin is free to do whatever he wants to do.
              ****** Wow, all the "what he/it wants to do"s make one a bit confused, don't they! LOL!

              >The following is one of my experiences. A few years ago I had a heart attack. There I lay on the hospital bed being operated on. I wake up and I am talking to the Mahanta. The Mahanta asks me what I want to do. I reply I want to raise my children. I want to be there for my children and be their father. Shortly thereafter I wake up and the surgeon tells me I had a heart attack. I was surprised by what he said. A couple of years later a Higher Initiate in Eckankar informed me I was supposed to die during my heart attack. But I did not die.
              ****** Now I'd really like to know how this HI could know that you were supposed to die?? Was he there?? Somebody I knew some time ago told me about a similar experience where she could choose to either go back and live or just leave for good. The conclusion I have drawn is that there might be incidents in life which I've come to call "points of translation", as opposite to "a point of no return". When an individual hits a point of translation, they can still choose what they want while at the point of no return, they have to go.

              >Instead I chose to live. The Mahanta allowed me to live even though my time was up and I should have translated. So you see as Soul we are free to do what we want..
              ****** See above. I don't think we (=what you call "Soul") can do what we want, not always.

              >Of course that choice to live has responsibilities. Nothing is free. So you see as Soul we are free to choose what we want. We have free will.
              ******Not in all instances, no. I think we have free will within the limits of what we are and what our mission is, which experiences we need for a !greater good! (or for our own good).

              >I read in a book once that a certain yogi was talking to his disciples. He then sat down and informed them his time was up. He layed down and translated. So you see some souls do know when they will die. He knew ahead of time when his time was up. It is very possible that Darwin knew when he was translating.
              ******Well, maybe they did, and maybe they didn't! Who can say? I wouldn't dare make such a sweeping statement - but well, as you are an ekkie and have all the higher wisdom, of course you can! LOL!

              > You make the following statement:
              > "Those Wonderful Eck Masters they age and die. Of course, those wonderful eck masters never existed--hence they don't change or die . . . they never lived!!" Have you mentioned this to members of ATOM.
              ****** Not necessary, as I'm fairly sure that Mish doesn't believe in Atom either! So don't I! LOL! I can live my life without any master except the ones I encounter in my everyday life!

              >So they use Boucharan Masters and not Eck Masters. They look like the same Masters to me. Maybe they do exist and maybe they don't exist. Would you believe me if I told you I actually spoke to a few of them in my dreams? Would you call me a nut case? You see we all have different experiences. Just because you have never met anyone does not mean they don't exist. I never met Stephen Harper. But I believe he exists.
              ******This has nothing to do with being a nutcase or not, in my view. Of course you see the beings your path requires you see. If you really believe in something and are following a path earnestly, of course you will end up encountering the beings your path is dealing with! This phenomenon is plain and simply a psychological reality and nothing else. Meeting or not meeting personalities whose existence is proven (as is Stephen Harper's) is a whole different thing, compared with fictitional masters nobody ever heard of and who are a reality only within eckankar. Claiming that people like Rami Nuri are eck masters doesn't prove anything - who else outside of ekkiekar could certify this?

              > Then you state Klemp certainly hasn't slowed the aging process. On planet earth we all have physical bodies. Paul Twitchell had a physical body. I have a physical body and Harold Klemp has a physical body.
              ****** Yeah, and look at Rebbie Tarzs! He doesn't appear a day older than 46, and then he is 500 years old or older! Maybe this has to do with the fact that nobody has ever seen Rebbie other than in dreams and ekkie experiences! Show me anybody who has seen Rebbie in physical reality! Thus it is easy to say Rebbie is 500 years old, and look at him when you are confronted with good old (in the true sense of the word!) Harry in his physical body! Accept that eckankar can't prove what they are claiming because Klemp is about 66 and looks every day like it and even older than that!

              >Any powers that we have should be used wisely. If someone is able to change their body such that it does not get old, then good for them.
              ****** Again, look at Rebbie Tarzs! And eckankar does claim that the bodies of the ekkie masters don't age - too bad that Harry can't prove this with his own body!

              >How many humans do you know that will never die? It's only a physical body. Maybe the human race was designed to have a physical body which gets old and dies? Maybe Klemp's body is attacked by the Kal and can only take so much? Maybe Paul Twitchell's body was also attacked by the Kal and it got old too? Maybe Darwin's body got attacked by the Kal and got old too? The point is who really cares if anyone can make their bodies immortal? I believe my soul is immortal and that is all that counts. My physical body is only temporary.
              ******Yeah, and who is Kal by the way? Everything that's bad is ascribed to the dealings of Kal. Poor guy, he always gets the blame whereas suggie is always the good guy! LOL! Of course we have bodies that get old and die, it's a well and widely known fact! LOL! Again, how about this claim of eckankar that the bodies of the masters don't get old? It's really (Re)bizarre. LOL!

              > Overall I sense that you are upset at Eckankar and at Harold Klemp.
              ****** You "sense"? Did you get that on the inner? LOL! As we all were once part of the organisation we feel we have the right to speak out. This has nothing to do with being upset. Of course, shortly after leaving eckankar, I felt like a fool of having been duped so much! This has changed over time and now I'm just leading my happy life without any restrictions!

              >One of the fundamental principles of any true religion is the Golden Heart. Eckankar makes reference to the Golden Heart all the time.
              ****** Yeah, another psychological reality is "talk most about what you don't have"! Eckankar is not about love, not at all. It's about power, membership and money!

              >Give Love to all and hatred to none. Harold Klemp does not wish anyone any harm.
              ****** Is that so? Did you ever read Harry wishing the wrath of the eck over all those who might influence ekkies into leaving eckankar? Well, Harry certainly can't take a joke in this case!

              >Fact is Darwin left Eckankar many years ago. He left long before I joined Eckankar. So I can truly say I know very little of Darwin. I googled his name a few times just to see what he was doing. I found the website of ATOM.org. I read what was in it and then left. I concluded Darwin found his own path and I was happy for him
              ****** Well, it's your choice what you spend your time on ... LOL!

              > Now we come to when Klemp will mention Darwin's death. I have no idea if Harold Klemp will ever make a public statement concerning the death of Darwin Gross. If it makes you feel better Wikipedia states Darwin Gross died on March 8, 2008. I hope that makes you feel better.
              ****** Ratapesce, it's not a question if it makes Mish, or anyone else for that part, feel better. You're talking in circles around the real issue: Darwin was the MAHANTA, THE LIVING ECK MASTER at the time, and he was SEEN, RESPECTED and WORSHIPPED AS SUCH and CALLED that. Now don't you find it odd that, even if Darwin "fell from grace" later, Harry isn't inclined to lose even a few words about that? Well, we all know that eckankar wants to make the "fall from grace" forgotten, but it can't be eradicated. There are too many people in eckankar who remember - and pass on the information, even involuntarily because it's strictly forbidden to mention Darwin's name officially. Plus, Darwin was Harry's "master" who initiated him!

              > Now maybe we can all be happy and try to get along as a species. The Kal is very good at manipulating us and testing us. Do you see the tricks of the Kal? The Kal is very,very good at what it does. Everytime someone has a negative emotion it is because the Kal was able to get to them. Imagine if you were a true God Realized Master. Would anything really get to you? Would you get angry?
              ******Why should we do that? How much fun is it living a life of a so-called god realised master, without any emotions and far away from living a fulfilled life? Doesn't god-realised rather mean that everything worth living is removed from you? How could we serve life by living in such circumstances?

              > Think about this and then you will see how the Kal plays tricks with us and tries to fool us. The trick is to get to a point where the Kal can't affect you anymore. Now this is very hard to do. It is almost impossible to do. But we try anyway.
              ******Yeah yeah the kal the kal - what a bad guy!! And how easy it is to credit him with all the negative! LOL!

              > So be cool, get down and stay loose, bro. It isn''t worth getting upset about. The whole physical un iverse is one huge computer program called the Matrix and Kal Niranjan or the Devil or whatever name you want to give it created this computer program. The sooner you realize this the better it will be for you. Try rationalizing that just for fun. You want a real challenge, try rationalizing the Matrix we live in. Very soon you will see the tricks of the Kal Niranjan.
              ******A typical ekkie reaction ... you all know what is "good" and "bad" and what is worth getting upset about or not, do you? What arrogance! As the "chosen people" you must know what life is all about indeed! Do you have any scientific proof that the physical universe is as you describe it? If so, please let me know - for the time being, I rather suspect that it's all speculation and that you got it "on the inner". LOL! First of all, I'd suggest you separate fact from fiction and don't take all your inner experiences at face value!


              > Be cool, hang loose and stay calm, bro. And whatever you do, don't get angry.
              ****** And blah ... :-) thanks for all the hot air! LOL!

              > Baraka Bashad,
              Ratapesce
              ****** Yeah, and cheers to you too! :-D
              Ingrid
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