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Re: Truthdecider's Post, "The Ex-Eckist Critics Vs. The Ex-Eckist Apologists

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  • mishmisha9
    Thanks, Truthdecider! I do have one more question after reading your post. Do you feel like you fully understand your experiences in Eckankar and have
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 1, 2005
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      Thanks, Truthdecider!

      I do have one more question after reading your post. Do you feel
      like you fully understand your experiences in Eckankar and have
      transcended beyond them now? Or are you still working on that?

      For me, I wasn't in Eckankar for as long a time, as you, so I didn't
      have as much invested beyond some time attending eck functions,
      giving them money and reading all of Harold's boring books. I have
      no attachment to Harold, and I didn't get around to reading Paul's
      books beyond "Stranger by the River." I don't feel the need to look
      for anything positive to attribute to Eckankar or any fake master
      therein named. My positive experience in regards to my eck
      experience is that I am free from it, I learned about religious
      scams and cults, and hopefully this knowledge will keep me from
      falling for another. I think one in a lifetime is enough for me! So
      you see this is my positive! : ) Also, posting here is my way of
      contributing what I have learned so others might be helped to learn
      the truth or maybe even relate in a similar way. I think it is fine
      that you want to view Eckankar as you do. It is what you are
      comfortable with. I am comfortable with this right now myself. As to
      the future, who knows how either you or I will view this--as you say
      it is all evolving. Our journeys continue. . .

      I would like to suggest that you have a very strong survivor
      personality. True survivors deal with their hardshps by appreciating
      what they learned while going through difficult times. They thrive
      in realizing that they overcame the obstacles that had made their
      life so difficult. They don't whine or live in the past--beyond
      appreciating what they learned and recognizing the personal growth
      that they themselves accomplished. They are happy and enjoy life--
      and can even laugh sometimes at what they went through. They
      recognize that life is how you deal with it!

      I recommend a book called the Survivor Personality by Al Siebert
      that you might be interested in reading. It's on the link page here.
      He also has a very nice website.

      Thanks, for answering my questions!

      Mish



      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
      <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
      > Hey Mish,
      >
      > I will answer the questions that you posted to me.
      >
      > I stepped away from Eckankar because I found that I had outgrown
      it.
      > Several months before I read Ford's book, I had a dream, a very
      > powerful dream where I was with an Eck master. Then later in the
      > dream, I became that Eck master, and realized that I had been him
      all
      > along. (I described this dream in detail in a post on the TS web
      site
      > some time ago.) There were many events that happened that led up to
      > this dream, some of which were outer observations of
      inconsistencies
      > in the outer path, and some were other inner experiences that were
      > pointing more towards the reality of my own higher being.
      >
      > After reading Ford's book, all of the pieces began to fall into
      place,
      > and after some emotional agonizing over the decision (which you
      > witnessed with me through my posts on the HCS web site), I made the
      > final decision to step away from the Eckankar teachings.
      >
      > However, none of this takes away from what Eckankar did for me
      when I
      > was not as spiritually mature or aware. I explained these
      experiences
      > in post number 419 on this site entitled "Response To Ingrid and
      Liz".
      >
      > There is a great story told in many different ways, and in many
      > different cultures folklore that also illustrates what I am trying
      to
      > explain about this. This is one example that I found in the Korean
      > culture that basically goes like this:
      >
      > There was a small boy who was nearly afraid of everything. He was
      > often beat up by his classmates, and had almost no self-confidence.
      > However, his Grandfather, now deceased, had been a very famous and
      > powerful General in the Korean Army.
      >
      > One day, his Grandmother, who had been the General's wife, took her
      > Grandson aside, and gave him a small Lion's head made of
      silver. "This
      > Lion's head is magic." She told her Grandson. "Your Grandfather
      always
      > carried this with him, and it was this that gave him all of his
      > courage and power." The boy took it with awe, and from then on,
      always
      > kept it with him.
      >
      > The boy believed in this charm so much, that he no longer was
      afraid
      > of anything. Nor did he let the other kids pick on him anymore. He
      > gained self-confidence, and began to excel at everything that he
      did.
      > In time, as he grew older, he also became a great military leader
      and
      > hero like his grandfather.
      >
      > One day, after her Grandson had become so successful, his
      Grandmother
      > sat him down, and told him the truth about the Lion's head. "That
      > thing was only an ornament that I took off of an old cane that
      someone
      > had thrown away. Your Grandfather never even saw it, much less ever
      > carried it with him. It had no power, but you believed in it, so it
      > worked. Actually, everything that you were able to do was because
      of
      > the power inside you!"
      >
      > Her Grandson became an even more powerful leader after hearing
      this,
      > for he now realized that he had done everything with his own power
      all
      > along.
      >
      > Sometimes people need a crutch until they are strong enough to
      realize
      > that everything lies within them only. Only then, can they throw
      the
      > crutch away, and walk strongly on their own. This is what I was
      trying
      > to get across in my "Response To Ingrid and Liz" post that I
      mentioned
      > earlier.
      >
      > Of course, the key here is not just setting up the temporary belief
      > systems that act as a crutch, it's also in knowing when to take the
      > crutch away, and let the person know how strong that THEY really
      are
      > spiritually.
      >
      > I have heard several stories over the years where, at a certain
      point,
      > Paul Twitchell may have taken people's crutches away. I remember
      Patti
      > Simpson's story in her book, where she tells of the time that she
      and
      > Paul were walking on the beach together, and he told her that he
      had
      > made up the whole Eckankar thing. This was supposedly a
      breakthrough
      > point for Patti into her own Mastership, and realizing her own
      divinity.
      >
      > I also remember hearing a recording of a Radio interview with the
      now
      > infamous Tom Flamma. Darwin was the LEM at the time of the
      interview.
      > The MC asked Tom "Is Darwin your master?" To which Tom
      replied, "No, I
      > am my own master. I was set free by Paul Twitchell in 19__" (I
      don't
      > recall the date that Tom gave).
      >
      > By "set free", could Tom have meant that Paul had revealed the
      truth
      > about Eckankar to him?
      >
      > However, the problem with current day Eckankar seems to be that the
      > Chelas need to completely discover this on their own, with what
      > appears to be much resistance from the outer organizational
      structure.
      > Also, as Liz pointed out in her post, this idea of creating a
      powerful
      > myth for people to believe in (even if it is intended only as a
      > temporary spiritual crutch) doesn't seem to work for everyone, and
      > seems to have led some people away from more traditional forms of
      help
      > that may have been much more beneficial to them. This is certainly
      a
      > point worth considering.
      >
      > On a different point about all of this, I believe very strongly
      that
      > everything that we experience in life is a reflection of our own
      state
      > of consciousness. I experience this on a daily basis, and have
      > absolutely no doubt about this reality. And this is certainly not
      just
      > something that is taught in Eckankar. This is the basis of most
      truly
      > grounded spiritual teachings, such as the Shamanistic traditions,
      the
      > Buddhist traditions, etc. So even if it appears that someone hits
      me
      > with their car, or I am born into an abusive household (which I
      was),
      > or I join a spiritual path that turns out to have a lot of
      deceptions
      > and untruths in it that are mixed with some truths, this is all
      still
      > my hologram! It is my universe that I created to learn from, and my
      > mental projection. All of it! I can't disown certain parts of it,
      > because all of it's mine, and I need to realize that I own all of
      it
      > if I am ever to fully understand and transcend it.
      >
      > Now granted, as Elizabeth Kubler-Ross so wisely points out, most
      of us
      > go through 5 distinct stages of grieving when we experience any
      kind
      > of big loss or hurt. One of the earlier stages is allowing the
      anger
      > and the pain to have their beingness. I can remember punching a
      heavy
      > bag, sometimes for an hour or more a day, for several weeks when I
      > finally was facing the anger that I felt towards my abusive
      childhood.
      > But as even most Therapists will tell you, the real healing of the
      > pain and damage from these kinds of experiences commences when you
      get
      > to the point where you can not only forgive your abusers or
      deceivers,
      > but when you can begin to see the experience in a positive light,
      and
      > actually see how the whole experience helped you develop certain
      > positive qualities that you may not have otherwise developed.
      >
      > Please understand that I am in no way trying to preach, or suggest
      > that anyone here needs to change what they are doing, or how they
      are
      > expressing themselves. I am only trying to point out that there are
      > many sides to how these kinds of things are looked at and dealt
      with,
      > and that it's important for all of us not to become stuck on the
      idea
      > that there is only one right way to deal with these kinds of
      experiences.
      >
      > Truthdecider
      >
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
      > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
      > > Hi, Truthdecider!
      > >
      > > You know basically we are both just stating opinions about how
      we
      > > view Eckankar now that we are no longer members of the org., and
      we
      > > do see it differently because your experience and mine are
      vastly
      > > different, so no wonder we are looking at it from different
      angles.
      > > I don't think it is necessary to apologize--I was just pointing
      out
      > > to you that criticism also comes from the apologists as well as
      the
      > > critics.
      > >
      > > In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
      > > <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
      > > > Hey Mish,
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for your response. I feel that you may have missed some
      of
      > > my points though.
      > > >
      > > > Firstly, the main message that I was trying to get across was
      that
      > > > both schools of thought are OK, both the critics and the so
      called
      > > > apologists. I never said, nor did I mean to say that I thought
      the
      > > > critics were wrong. My analogy about the wave in the fish
      tank, and
      > > > how thoughts also create waves was used, as I explained in my
      post,
      > > > not to show that one should never criticize, only that one
      should
      > > be
      > > > watchful about becoming over-critical, or becoming stuck
      there. I
      > > > wasn't trying to imply that I thought anyone here had become
      stuck
      > > > there, and I apologize if it came off that way.
      > >
      > > ###What I don't understand is why you said this then if you
      weren't
      > > implying that about the posters on this site. The thing is we
      are
      > > just expressing a different view of our eckankar experience. I
      don't
      > > post on HCS or TS any longer because the concensus of posters on
      > > those BBs is mostly apologists, so rather than stir up emotions
      over
      > > there, I post here! : )
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > > Secondly, bear in mind that the whole reason that I wrote that
      > > post in
      > > > the first place was because of the judgements and criticisms
      that I
      > > > felt were being thrown at the so called ex-eckist apologists
      by
      > > some
      > > > of the posters on this site. So judgements were already being
      > > thrown
      > > > at people like me before I posted what I posted. And once
      again, I
      > > in
      > > > no way meant to sound judgmental. And again, I apologize if I
      > > > inadvertantly came off that way.
      > >
      > > ###These recent posts were in response to a negative post about
      this
      > > site on TS. Personally, I don't really care how anyone views
      their
      > > eckankar experience or even if they are still members--and I
      don't
      > > even mind engaging in a little discussion here about critics vs
      > > apologists. But this site is for venting and sharing truthful
      > > negative (mostly) Eckankar experiences, to make others aware and
      to
      > > provide a platform for those who want to share in that way.
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > > Lastly, in this reply to me, you imply that if I am still in
      the
      > > stage
      > > > that is the so called apologist, that maybe "I'm just not
      there
      > > yet".
      > > > This is still implying that the way of the critic is superior,
      and
      > > not
      > > > that both camps have their equal place, which is what I'm
      saying.
      > > And
      > > > actually, I went through a phase of being an Eck critic,
      albeit a
      > > > brief one. Look back on the TS web site, and read some of my
      posts
      > > > where I took Eckist posters like Roy Seeber to task, and
      really
      > > pulled
      > > > him over the carpet! But I got past all of that, and no longer
      feel
      > > > the need. I am just grateful for what Eckankar did for me now,
      even
      > > > though I have moved on from it. So is it not also possible
      that
      > > you're
      > > > just not where I am at yet? : )
      > >
      > > ###We are obviously not in the same place on this. I made that
      > > comment in response to the being stuck comment--a little touche'
      > > remark I guess.
      > >
      > > >
      > > > Best regards to you as well!
      > > >
      > > > Truthdecider
      > >
      > > ###I would like to ask you what caused you to drop out of
      Eckankar-
      > > what was the reason for you leaving? Also, I hope you won't
      mind,
      > > but can you clarify just what it is that Eckankar did for you
      that
      > > makes you so grateful? I know you mentioned in another post how
      life
      > > had been so tough for you and while in Eckankar things got
      better--
      > > but what exactly can you attribute to Eckankar that is exclusive
      to
      > > Eckankar and that you couldn't have found elsewhere?
      > >
      > > Prior to my finding Eckankar, I had several experiences that
      made me
      > > aware of Divine Spirit--and I wasn't associated with any
      religion or
      > > spiritual teaching at the time. It came to me, fortunately I
      > > recognized it and was grateful, because it gave me strength and
      > > comfort when I needed it. When I joined Eckankar, I fell for
      > > believing that these experiences had been gifts from the
      > > mahanta/klemp. That was really dumb of me, to give eckankar
      credit
      > > for that which I had learned/experienced--that Inner knowingness
      > > unique to me. So, as a critic of the teachings of eckankar, this
      is
      > > just an example of how delusional we become when we fall for the
      > > eckancrap. That is why I don't understand giving credit to the
      org
      > > because you have even said that now you realize that it came
      from
      > > within that which you learned. It confuses me how you state one
      > > thing and then you still validate the teachings. I guess that is
      why
      > > I don't see you there yet--not necessary to be where I am of
      course,
      > > but really past your eckankar experience.
      > >
      > > I hope you don't mind the additional questions, because I think
      this
      > > would be more interesting than debating the critics vs
      apologists
      > > positions. After all, our common ground is that we are both ex-
      > > eckists. : )
      > >
      > > Mish
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In
      EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
      > > > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
      > > > > Hello, Truthdecider and All!
      > > > >
      > > > > It seems to be that we are all going around in circles a
      bit,
      > > > > debating what is truth and what is good. We seem to have
      broken
      > > into
      > > > > two camps that Truthdecider has aptly labeled Ex-Eckist
      Critics
      > > > > while others, like him, prefer to be Ex-Eckist Apologists. I
      > > posted
      > > > > recently a portion of Ford Johnson's Introduction to his
      > > > > book "Confessions of a God Seeker" where he talked about how
      > > much
      > > > > truth is good enough. He concluded and stated this
      underlying
      > > theme
      > > > > of his book, "good enough is not good enough if it means
      > > avoiding
      > > > > the truth."
      > > > >
      > > > > As an eckankar critic, I do feel that the on-going praise
      and
      > > > > attention to what some apologists call the truths and
      valuable
      > > > > teachings in Eckankar is actually avoiding and delaying the
      > > truth. I
      > > > > appreciate Truthdecider's story about what he experienced
      while
      > > a
      > > > > member of eckankar and that he does value and appreciate it
      for
      > > > > that, but still, I think there will be a final step for him
      when
      > > he
      > > > > totally lets go of it. I'm not sure that he is there
      yet. : )
      > > > > Letting go does not mean replacing it with anger either, or
      that
      > > one
      > > > > would have to become an eckankar critic such as we are. It
      just
      > > > > means, hey, those experiences came from within the
      individual--
      > > > > Eckankar as the instrument was just a delusion.
      Truthdecider, I
      > > am
      > > > > very happy that you have achieved so many personal goals and
      > > > > happiness.
      > > > >
      > > > > Truthdecider, I think the one thing that bothers you about
      the
      > > posts
      > > > > you read here is that we posters no longer obey the law of
      > > silence,
      > > > > and we don't question the "is it true, is it necessary, is
      it
      > > kind"
      > > > > little brainwashing ditty we all learned while in Eckankar.
      And
      > > > > while you and some others can see Eckankar as a positive
      > > experience,
      > > > > there are many others who did not. In fact, many suffered
      > > confusion
      > > > > and stress--especially, in regards to those darn fake
      > > initiations. I
      > > > > remember that you made a statement on Eckankar Truth where
      you
      > > > > criticized others, including me, as making uneducated and
      > > judgmental
      > > > > comments about certain topics that you judged we were
      ignorant
      > > > > about. Yet, again, in one of your recent posts here, you
      throw
      > > out
      > > > > your own opinion that posters here are on some sort of wheel
      of
      > > hate
      > > > > and that this is very wrong--it appears that you both accuse
      > > others
      > > > > of judging, while it is okay for you to judge. I will agree,
      > > though,
      > > > > that we all can come across as being harsh and judgmental at
      > > times!
      > > > >
      > > > > You said "that those like myself who will always feel
      Eckankar
      > > was a
      > > > > very valuable stepping stone for them are blind and attached
      > > > > fools. . ." Just remember that "always" is a long, long
      time,
      > > and
      > > > > like I mentioned above, you may eventually let go of this
      > > > > attachment. In the meantime, perhaps, a better way to state
      this
      > > is
      > > > > that Eckankar was your stepping stone, but not a necessary
      one
      > > for
      > > > > everyone or even anyone. It's just where you were when you
      > > became
      > > > > aware of certain things that you found helpful and valuable.
      I
      > > > > wasn't a member so long and didn't really get so deeply
      caught
      > > up in
      > > > > the delusion of the teachings. I can't say, as you do, that
      I
      > > found
      > > > > anything of value--in fact, I felt I was held back. I did
      enjoy
      > > > > singing HU, though! I liked that vibration. : )
      > > > >
      > > > > You also, stated, "It has long been scientifically proven
      and
      > > > > documented that thoughts and feelings send out
      electromagnetic
      > > waves
      > > > > of engery. So the kind of thoughts and feelings and words
      that
      > > we
      > > > > give out, do return to us and affect us." This seems to
      promote
      > > the
      > > > > Law of Silence that is very well engrained in Eckists, and
      with
      > > it
      > > > > comes a veiled threat of speaking out. In other words, it is
      a
      > > fear
      > > > > tactic to keep critics quiet!
      > > > >
      > > > > I do understand, though, the basic premise of your statement
      > > about
      > > > > the electromagnetic waves of energy. Positive thoughts are
      > > superior
      > > > > to negative ones, in my opinion, but as Prometheus points
      out in
      > > his
      > > > > post, two negatives do create a positive! So there is need
      for
      > > both
      > > > > viewpoints from time to time--it helps maintain balance and
      > > positive
      > > > > thoughts helps achieve better health and well being.
      However, it
      > > > > should be truthful positive thoughts and not those that come
      > > from
      > > > > lies and delusion. I also believe that electromagnetic waves
      > > that
      > > > > are sent out with our thoughts and feelings are a part of
      our
      > > > > intuitive sense. For instance, early on when I first met my
      > > husband,
      > > > > a long time Eckist, I had this initial thought: it crossed
      my
      > > mind
      > > > > that I should lead him out of Eckankar! But then, I said,
      no, I
      > > had
      > > > > no right to do that. So, instead, I became a member. Later,
      when
      > > we
      > > > > both left, I understood that my Eck experience was just a
      part
      > > of
      > > > > his and my true purpose in joining Eckankar was actually to
      do
      > > what
      > > > > I had thought in the beginning--to help him leave when the
      time
      > > came
      > > > > for him to do so.
      > > > >
      > > > > The criticisms of Eckankar and its leadership expressed on
      this
      > > site
      > > > > is really our karmic obligagion, to point out the truths
      which
      > > are
      > > > > the lies of Eckankar and other cults and scams that come to
      our
      > > > > attention. We are not on a "hate-wheel of criticism for the
      sake
      > > of
      > > > > criticism" as you suggest. And I do not regard you as a fool
      for
      > > > > holding on to what you believe were valuable lessons and
      > > teachings
      > > > > in Eckankar, but I was fooled and I was foolish for falling
      for
      > > its
      > > > > trap! Just remember we are all still on our individual
      journeys
      > > as
      > > > > Truth Seekers.
      > > > >
      > > > > Best regards,
      > > > > Mish
    • Freefrom
      Truthdecider, I m sure you may mean well, but the Katrina disasters of the world may not agree. Bad things sometimes happen to good people. I sometimes refer
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 2, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Truthdecider,

        I'm sure you may mean well, but the Katrina disasters of the world may
        not agree. Bad things sometimes happen to good people. I sometimes
        refer to the "I created and create all of my existence to every tiny
        detail as a reflection of my own consciousness" as New Age Guilt. The
        old Karma thing of ultimate and absolute responsibility for
        everything. This is also a good path towards self-hate and the old
        manic/depressive cycle so often seen in people making such grandiose
        propositions. I am not preaching, just conveying my experience.

        I have also seen Elizabeth Kubler-Ross in a lecture and she was a
        pretty fiesty outspoken person. She was not just an all accepting
        personality and if she had a beef with someone about something, she
        could very well let them have it without holding back, even as an old
        lady who had recovered from a serious stroke.

        My understanding of the grieving stages is that they are not
        necessarily sequential or linear. It is an organic process. Denial is
        always there and anger and sadness and all the rest. The point is
        accepting whatever comes up and working with it and through it IMO. In
        shamanistic terms there is a sense of accepting what is appropriate,
        what is for that moment. And then the Buddhists have their way of
        dealing with life, compasion and open awareness. I'm no expert, but
        this is my take on it. Denial is really a difficult one. I personally
        don't think that Paul Twitch intended his New Age religion to be a
        training ground for self-made masters of their own fate, once they
        realized the whole thing was just a sham, IMO.

        Best

        Freefrom

        P.S. resisting feelings is a really hard thing to do, yet that is what
        eckiekar taught us to do. Har, Har. Sorry I suddenly felt silly.


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
        <truthdecider@y...> wrote:

        snip
        On a different point about all of this, I believe very strongly that
        everything that we experience in life is a reflection of our own state
        of consciousness. I experience this on a daily basis, and have
        absolutely no doubt about this reality. And this is certainly not just
        something that is taught in Eckankar. This is the basis of most truly
        grounded spiritual teachings, such as the Shamanistic traditions, the
        Buddhist traditions, etc. So even if it appears that someone hits me
        with their car, or I am born into an abusive household (which I was),
        or I join a spiritual path that turns out to have a lot of deceptions
        and untruths in it that are mixed with some truths, this is all still
        my hologram! It is my universe that I created to learn from, and my
        mental projection. All of it! I can't disown certain parts of it,
        because all of it's mine, and I need to realize that I own all of it
        if I am ever to fully understand and transcend it.

        Now granted, as Elizabeth Kubler-Ross so wisely points out, most of us
        go through 5 distinct stages of grieving when we experience any kind
        of big loss or hurt. One of the earlier stages is allowing the anger
        and the pain to have their beingness. I can remember punching a heavy
        bag, sometimes for an hour or more a day, for several weeks when I
        finally was facing the anger that I felt towards my abusive childhood.
        But as even most Therapists will tell you, the real healing of the
        pain and damage from these kinds of experiences commences when you get
        to the point where you can not only forgive your abusers or deceivers,
        but when you can begin to see the experience in a positive light, and
        actually see how the whole experience helped you develop certain
        positive qualities that you may not have otherwise developed.
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