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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Digest Number 1346

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  • Sharon
    Hi All - Thoughts on today s digest - Prometheus, I wondered about that Law of Silence when I first joined.  For one thing, I d remembered reading you
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 2, 2009
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      Hi All -

      Thoughts on today's "digest" - Prometheus, I wondered about that "Law of Silence" when I first joined.  For one thing, I'd remembered reading you should keep your initiation level to yourself, too, but then I noticed in the Mystic World it was frequently announced.  And, as the years passed and I met eckists outside of the little groups of locals I'd known since I joined, I was rather surprised because they'd ask my initiation level before they even knew my name!!   Well, not quite - but you know what I mean.

      I think the bit about not revealing "deep secrets" because Twitch knew if people started comparing notes, they'd soon realize there were no "deep secrets" to reveal!!  Unless, of course, they'd forked over several hundred $$ for one of Twitch's "readings".  When people started talking, it turned out he'd give the same 'reading' to more than one person!! 

      Jonathan - and I'm probably mis-spelling your name - lighten up!!   I was born with the "spelling gene", and the first time I got into trouble was in 2nd grade, when my teacher wrote "desert" instead of "dessert" and I innocently corrected her.  She was a vicious spiteful bitch, bet me ten cents I couldn't spell all the words in the 4th grade reader.  Well, I did it, no problem, but she wouldn't give me the dime so I could buy a comic book.  She said I had to buy an ice-cream at lunch.  I was a chubby kid and always dieting.  Once I announced I was starting a new diet, so at lunchtime she gave me a pkg of chocolate cupcakes for lunch.  Back then, there would be 2 grades in one class so I ended up with this nasty woman for 3 yrs. 

      Anyway, recently a friend apologized in advance for sending an email quickly without using spellcheck first.  Excuse me?   Who cares?   Now, I've driven my kids & grandkids nuts because I'm always correcting spelling & grammar but I don't do it to be nasty; it's so they'll get better grades.  When they got a computer in elementary school, I immediately sat down and disabled spellcheck.   Sometimes back at a.r.e. I'd correct eckthug spelling just to be nasty, though.  I don't bother, I also type fast, I write what I'm thinking, I rarely notice typos much less correct them unless the keys are sticking.  It's the internet, no one cares.  Also, I saw something interesting recently, that if the first & last letters are right, the brain ignores any mixed-up letters in the middle. 

      The point is, what's important is that you're able to communicate.  Are you familiar with "teenspeak"?  It's amazing, they've evolved a whole 'nother language for texting & chat!  It works!!   Can you imagine, if language didn't involve, we'd all be speaking Olde English, which isn't easy, although I had a professor would could read & speak it!!  

      I just really feel bad that you beat yourself up for messing up someone's name!!  Now, I don't know if that's just the way you are, but that's another thing ekult did, turned me inward to always watching & judging myself.  I've lightened up *enormously* since getting out, I'm "me" again, isn't it funny how something like ekult that preaches "unconditional divine love" and tolerance and acceptance, etc., actually has the opposite effect?   Because if you look at the Org, and Klemp Himself, as Prometheus often points out, what they practice and what they preach are two entirely different things.

      A few years back, I read something somewhere that said humans are emotional creatures, and it's unnatural to *not* have them.  I think it's a matter of degree.  My personal pet peeve was always anger.  Didn't like it even as a child, scared the heck out of me in others, but even moreso in myself.  But stifling isn't healthy, either.  So, I finally gave myself permission to feel angry - well, *almost* angry!   I think of it as very pissed off.   I let it happen, and then it goes immediately and I'm back to my normal happy self. 

      Twitchell was an angry person, although he tried to appear otherwise.  For example, that story he told about the collection agency who dared expect him to pay his bill.  He sicced "the eck" on them, and they went out of business.  I remember an HI years back telling a similar story at a "worship" service, how a store had accidentally billed her full price for an over-$100 soup tureen on sale, and she had to make several calls before they fixed it, so she hu'd at them.   The thing is, she was just *so* nasty & spiteful about it!   It just made me wonder. 

      Okay, I'm just in one of those "rambling" moods....have a great day, everyone, and be good to yourselves!!

      Hugs,

      Sharon  





      --- On Mon, 3/2/09, EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      From: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Digest Number 1346
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 8:29 AM

      There are 5 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1a. Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes on us."
      From: jonathanjohns96
      1b. Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes on us."
      From: jonathanjohns96
      1c. Seekers versus Followers
      From: prometheus_973

      2. Re: Digest Number 1345
      From: Sharon

      3. DG Talks About Keeping Silent In ECKankar
      From: prometheus_973


      Messages
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1a. Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes on us."
      Posted by: "jonathanjohns96" jonathanjohns96@...
      jonathanjohns96
      Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 6:26 am ((PST))

      Etznab and Mishmisha,

      I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
      yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
      was a fraud.

      As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
      emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't

      sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
      based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

      Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that
      is
      another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
      something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
      recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
      regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
      and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.

      Jonathan



      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
      <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thank you Etznab and Mishmash for your comments.
      >
      > I wouldn't call this individual at the Eck center a "bad
      person"
      > because he didn't intend to annoy me. He had no idea he was in the
      > beginning stages of really upsetting me. Plus, I was a member too
      at
      > that time. He probabaly was assuming that I would agree with him.
      >
      > But it shows what 100% faith in a religion and/or spiritual master
      > does to people. I have always used one term that you did Mish, and
      > that is "delusional." These people really are living in their
      own
      > world. In my previous posts I have called it their "self-created
      > Eckankar World" or I say they are giving their "alternative
      universe
      > explanation" for something.
      >
      > In my last months in Eckankar I found it increasingly difficult to
      > deal with people like this. It almost got so bad that when I went
      to
      > the Eck center I felt like I was in an insane asylum or something.
      I
      > just couldn't handle it anymore.
      >
      > I also don't believe that every member of Eckankar is as severe as
      > this guy. This person believes in Eckankar 100%. I've met quite a
      few
      > others like this, but there are some in Eckankar who are not this
      > serious in their devotion to Eckankar and it's masters.
      >
      > Also, this person started talking about Doug Marman and how "Doug
      > explained everything" as a reaction to something that I said. I
      don't
      > remember exactly what I said, but I don't remember it being a
      severe
      > anti-Eckankar statement either.
      >
      > Dredging up this memory of this interection with this guy caused
      > several emotions to come to the surface today:
      > 1. My astonishment that someone could actually think like this guy
      in
      > his blind support for Eckankar/LEMs.
      > 2. Resentment that this guy thought I was stupid enough to believe
      > and accept his explanation that Paul was just "joking" and that
      this
      > somehow made Paul's lies "OK" or acceptable. After that, I
      felt the
      > same resentment against Paul Twitchell.
      > 3. Sadness and betrayal that Eckankar had perpetuated all of its
      > various lies on me.
      > 4. Anger at myself for being so stupid to have believed almost all
      of
      > Eckankar's lies.
      >
      > So I have had a busy day going through all of these emotions. But I
      > am feeling better now.
      >
      > Etznab, in another branch of this thread you wrote:
      > "My question is this: If Paul didn't go to Paris,
      > France, then where and when did he meet his
      > first Eck Master in the physical? Sudar Singh?
      > Has Eckankar Inc. ever clarified this question
      > which naturally arises? I don't know that it has."
      >
      > All I can say is that Eckankar doesn't clarify much of anything.
      The
      > main reason is if they do the entire "Eckankar story" will
      quickly
      > unravel. I believe Ford Johnson mentioned this in "Confessions."
      >
      > Also, just a general comment, I have no idea whether Doug Marman
      said
      > that Paul's story of Paris, France versus Paris, Kentucky was a
      joke
      > perpetuated by Paul. It's possible that this was this guy's
      > interpretation of what Doug said. Too bad we don't have an
      "expert"
      > on Doug's book. At this point in time I don't think I would have
      the
      > patience to read it.
      >
      > Jonathan
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
      > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Jonathan
      > >
      > > I really like that you shared this experience with us.
      > > I've wondered why eckists when learning the "truth"
      > > still stand by the teachings and the l.e.m. . . . I've
      > > thought about this a lot since reading your post
      > > yesterday. I feel really sad because it clearly points
      > > to the fact that eckists are delusional and follow the
      > > eck teachings and its master blindly. When people do
      > > that sort of thing, to put total faith and trust into
      > > something or someone, it can be so very dangerous--
      > > dangerous not to use one's head in other words. Laughing
      > > it off is just plain crazy! I wonder how many of these eckists
      > > today who are laughing and "joking" along with PT and
      > > Doug Marman ever met or knew PT in the real? It seems
      > > really odd to put one's faith with someone who has been
      > > long dead and basically obscure but for the few who have
      > > found eckankar. And Doug Marman? Well, I don't think
      > > much of a man who continues to put spins around the truth
      > > to continue the lies . . . and of course, Harold Klemp is
      > > in my opinion a bigger fraud and liar than PT. He knows
      > > the truth, but prefers to have title and money at the expense
      > > of his eck followers . . .
      > >
      > > Etznab, loved your posts too! You said it very well in regards
      > > to what else are lies--the eck masters, meeting Sudar, etc. and
      > > also pointing out where the responsibility of truth lies!
      > >
      > > Great posts! Thank you both!
      > >
      > > Mish
      > >
      > > --- In
      > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
      > > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > All,
      > > >
      > > > I made this original post before I went to bed, but now that it
      > is
      > > > morning I thought that I would explain my view of this
      situation
      > a
      > > > little bit more clearly.
      > > >
      > > > As this guy was saying this to me I was thinking to
      myself "Wow,
      > this
      > > > guy is heartless." I found his words to be very disturbing.
      It
      > wasn't
      > > > until I was driving home and started to really think about it
      > that I
      > > > started to get angry.
      > > >
      > > > But this situation is just one more example of how I was
      starting
      > to
      > > > wake up as to what was really going on in Eckankar. How Eckists
      > will
      > > > go to any lenghth to exonerate Paul Twitchell from being a liar.
      > > >
      > > > Jonathan
      > > >
      > > > --- In
      > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
      > > > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > All,
      > > > >
      > > > > I'm going to vent a little bit. I'm going to tell a
      short
      story
      > > > about
      > > > > something that happened at the local Eck center.
      > > > >
      > > > > In my last year in Eckankar I was at the Eck center. I was
      in
      a
      > > > > person-to-person talk with a guy there about Doug
      Marman's
      > book. I
      > > > > wasn't very familiar with the book then and I am still
      not
      very
      > > > > familiar with the book.
      > > > >
      > > > > I'm not sure what prompted this person's words, but
      he
      > mentioned
      > > > that
      > > > > Doug spoke about the fact that debunkers of Eckankar have
      been
      > > > > criticising Paul and saying that Twitchell's sister was
      never
      > in
      > > > > Paris, France. In other words, he was saying that the
      debunkers
      > > > were
      > > > > saying that Paul lied.
      > > > >
      > > > > And then this guy said that Doug pointed out that
      Paul's
      sister
      > was
      > > > > actually at art school in Paris, Kentucky, not Paris,
      France.
      > and
      > > > > that Paul had simply played a joke on all of us. And that
      this
      > fact
      > > > > somehow made everthing OK. This guy then went into
      uproarous
      > > > laughter
      > > > > saying "Isn't that funny?" Then he laughed
      some more.
      > > > >
      > > > > I may have cracked a small smile just to be polite and go
      along
      > > > with
      > > > > him. But as I was driving home and thinking about this I
      simply
      > got
      > > > > more and more angry. I even said directly to Paul "No,
      Paul,
      I
      > > > don't
      > > > > think it's funny. You lied to us. Doesn't that mean
      anything
      to
      > > > you?"
      > > > >
      > > > > So my point is, this person (Paul Twitchell) writes an
      > > > autobiography,
      > > > > misleading everybody to think his sister was in art school
      in
      > > > Paris,
      > > > > France, and then when we members of Eckankar find out the
      truth
      > we
      > > > > are supposed to just think that it is funny? Just laugh it
      off?
      > It
      > > > > really shows how sick these Eckists really are and how sick

      > Paul
      > > > > Twitchell really was.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jonathan
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >







      Messages in this topic (11)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1b. Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes on us."
      Posted by: "jonathanjohns96" jonathanjohns96@...
      jonathanjohns96
      Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 6:35 am ((PST))

      Mishmisha,

      Thanks for your understanding. I will remember that "mishmisha" is
      apricot in Arabic.

      I'd rather forget about my goofup, but I think mishmash was
      describing my state of mind and emotions yesterday as I was healing
      all of this Eckankar-induced trauma.

      Also, as soon as I realized my mistake on that post I was saying to
      myself "How could I have been so stupid! "How could I have been so
      stupid!" which was exactly how I felt when I found out about the lies
      in Eckankar. So that mistake on your name was really another healing
      for me. It shows how spirit continues to work with me even after
      leaving Eckankar.

      Jonathan


      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
      <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
      >
      > Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny
      > really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will
      > help you keep it sorted out! : )
      >
      > I can well imagine the emotions you are going through right now.
      > I know I felt pretty stupid about my involvement in the cult. Can't
      > believe I fell for it either. However, it has broadened my
      perceptions
      > about religions in general and a lot of other things. I hang around
      > here because I do value Truth, and sharing the "eck" experience
      in
      > an open and honest way . . . just might help some others to think
      > about theirs as well.
      >
      > Mish
      >
      > --- In
      EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
      > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Mish,
      > >
      > > I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your
      name "mishmisha9."
      > > Sorry about that. I must have seen the name "mishmash" on
      another
      > > message board and it got stuck in my brain. If you knew how much
      I've
      > > been through today you would know how well my brain and emotions
      are
      > > fried. I really found it very difficult to even make this post,
      but I
      > > wanted to respond to your's and Etznab's posts before too
      much
      time
      > > went by.
      > >
      > > I'm going to make a big sign and put it on my wall to remind me
      of your
      > > name because that always seems to be the only way I can
      straighten
      > > something like this out.
      > >
      > > Jonathan
      > >
      >







      Messages in this topic (11)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1c. Seekers versus Followers
      Posted by: "prometheus_973" prometheus_973@...
      prometheus_973
      Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 7:47 am ((PST))

      Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
      versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
      ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
      EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
      laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
      according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
      went to India.

      Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
      makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
      was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
      Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
      a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
      That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
      joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
      around mid-1971.

      The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
      and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
      the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
      of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
      EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
      Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
      even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in

      the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
      it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
      who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
      the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
      on an individual and private basis. They never have and
      never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
      a "joke!"

      I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
      seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
      protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
      The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
      inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
      comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
      and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
      become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
      that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
      Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
      often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
      and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
      losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
      turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
      one has been a Seeker all along!

      Prometheus









      Jonathan wrote:

      Etznab and Mishmisha,

      I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
      yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
      was a fraud.

      As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
      emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
      sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
      based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

      Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that
      is
      another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
      something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
      recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
      regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
      and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.






      Messages in this topic (11)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________
      2. Re: Digest Number 1345
      Posted by: "Sharon" brighttigress@... brighttigress
      Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 7:35 am ((PST))

      Hi All -

      Good posts recently!  Reading about that long-time eckist who just died, I
      thought how sad that this probably very nice man wasted his life on a lie.  On
      the other hand, he may have known the truth at some point and preferred to stay
      in denial.  He may have even been not such a nice guy.  He may have been one
      of those "eckthug" types.

      Anyway, I remembered a story Twitch told in "Difficulties of Becoming the
      LEM", which, if you read it objectively & without the eck-fogged
      lenses, reveals a lot.  The story was about some drunk "bum" on the
      street - NOT an "eckmaster" - darn, the book's in a box, I'll
      get it on the internet one of these days.  The drunk was looking for a
      "Mr. Eck", and Twitch ends up thinking something like "Aha!! 
      I'll be Mr. Eck!!"  

      You know, I think this story isn't the only one that really reveals
      Twitch's contempt for his deluded followers.  I think he was laughing at
      everyone.  He enjoyed pulling the wool over people's eyes, and
      "Diff" is, in my memory, a book that really shows this if you really
      look at it from a "literary analysis" viewpoint. 

      Not too long ago I was reading a transcript of some eckmeeting, perhaps a board
      meeting, Klemp was there of course, and I couldn't help thinking ohmigod,
      these people are wacko and actually believe all this nonsense!   It took place
      during Klemp's early years, it's probably something from Ford
      Johnson's site. 

      Yeah, it can be pretty rough when you're first going thru the
      "deprogramming" process, but it passes.  And getting free is really
      worth it!!   It helps to get away from it now & then, take a walk in the
      woods, watch funny videos, etc.  There just aren't words to express how
      wonderful it is when you finally find "you" again!!  It just takes
      time, it's a gradual process, and it's not going to happen overnight. 
      Be patient, and be good to yourself.

      Take care everyone, and Think Spring!!

      Hugs,

      Sharon







      Messages in this topic (1)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________
      3. DG Talks About Keeping Silent In ECKankar
      Posted by: "prometheus_973" prometheus_973@...
      prometheus_973
      Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:11 am ((PST))

      There are many "admonitions of keeping silent
      from the many ECK writings by Sri Paul Twitchell,
      one of which appeared in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
      Book One, as well as the individual home study:
      'He shall practice not only the Kamit, the Law
      of Silence with his secret [Initiate] word but
      shall practice the silence in his own affairs with
      ECK, and whatever is given him in the secret teachings.

      'Whatever the MAHANTA, the Inner Master, gives
      him in secret through the channels of the inward
      self, he shall keep secret and not speak of to anyone
      else. He shall practice this Law of Silence with others
      who are not to be told any of the deep secrets of ECK.
      He will not speak about the MAHANTA and their inner
      relationships, nor of his affairs in the works of ECKankar.
      Those who do are violating the very heart of the works
      and shall have to pay in some manner or other...Divine
      love comes through the practice of the Kamit, which
      is the Law of Silence. No one can enter the state of love
      until he knows loyalty, devotion and love for the ECK
      [Spirit].' {From Heaven To The Prairie, pg. 110}

      Isn't it strange that Klemp goes against the Kamit
      [The Law of Silence] by sharing the "stories" that chelas
      send to him! Of course, if it wasn't for breaking Spiritual
      Law and sharing these stories HK wouldn't have "written"
      half the books he has sold and made royalties from!
      Plus, HK instructs his Vahanas to, also, break the Law
      of Silence by having chelas share "the deep secrets
      of ECK." Gross also points out that the Shariyat states
      that chelas "will Not speak about the MAHANTA and
      their inner relationships." However, Klemp doesn't really
      care because he wants the publicity and the testimonials
      at the expense of his chelas! Unless, of course, it's all
      a lie and, thus, doesn't matter!

      Prometheus






      Messages in this topic (1)





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    • prometheus_973
      Hello Sharon and All, I remember that in the 1980s there were EK Seminar Workshops (in D.C. and and at Regionals) for the various Circles of Initiation. Thus,
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 2, 2009
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        Hello Sharon and All,
        I remember that in the 1980s there were EK Seminar
        Workshops (in D.C. and and at Regionals) for the various
        Circles of Initiation. Thus, everyone had to show their
        EK I.D.s and show their initiation number to get into
        the various circle workshops.

        I remember that in the 4th Circle Workshop the biggest
        complaint, from the longtime 4ths, was wanting to know
        why they hadn't gotten their 5ths after years and years!
        They had done the Vahana thing and were Local EK Leaders,
        etc. etc., but Klemp had Slowed initiations down! A few of
        these Chelas were very frustrated. I'm surprised that many
        didn't quit when Klemp did his "slow down."

        I was reading how Twitchell and Gross gave out initiations
        quickly when people proved themselves to be effective
        and dependable leaders, but Klemp tends to take a more
        negative (glass half empty) approach.

        I read in DG's "From Heaven To The Prairie" (1980 copyright)
        that Darwin joined ECKankar in 1969 (Klemp joined in 1967)
        and in 1970 at the EWWS Twitchell gave Darwin his 5th initiation.
        I wonder what "circle" Klemp was in at that time? It's ironic
        that Klemp complained that DG handed out too many initiations
        and moved people up the ladder too quickly, but HK got how
        many initiations from Darwin? Probably the 5th and most certainly
        the 6th-12th within a 10 year period! I've never once heard
        Klemp complain about how many and how fast those initiations
        came for him!

        So, Why did Klemp SLOW IT DOWN? Actually, there's NO reasonable
        explanation for the slowing down of initiations since World Consciousness
        is always improving and expanding! The only accurate, obvious, and
        truthful explanation is that Klemp is a selfish little dictator and a mean
        spirited egotistical narcissist and fraud who doesn't want to share his
        power and wealth with others. Klemp has to remain shoulders above
        all other ECKists (including those on the EK Board) so that his rulings
        can never be challenged!

        Prometheus


        Sharon wrote:
        Hi All -

        Thoughts on today's "digest" - Prometheus, I wondered about that "Law of Silence" when I
        first joined. For one thing, I'd remembered reading you should keep your initiation level to
        yourself, too, but then I noticed in the Mystic World it was frequently announced. And, as
        the years passed and I met eckists outside of the little groups of locals I'd known since I
        joined, I was rather surprised because they'd ask my initiation level before they even knew
        my name!! Well, not quite - but you know what I mean.

        I think the bit about not revealing "deep secrets" because Twitch knew if people started
        comparing notes, they'd soon realize there were no "deep secrets" to reveal!! Unless, of
        course, they'd forked over several hundred $$ for one of Twitch's "readings". When people
        started talking, it turned out he'd give the same 'reading' to more than one person!!
        [snip]

        ________________________________________________________________________
        1a. Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes on us."
        Posted by: "jonathan

        Etznab and Mishmisha,

        I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
        yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
        was a fraud.

        As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
        emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't

        sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion
        was based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday
        too.

        Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that
        is another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes
        in something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
        recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
        regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
        and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.

        Jonathan


        <jonathan wrote:
        >
        > Thank you Etznab and Mishmash for your comments.
        >
        > I wouldn't call this individual at the Eck center a "bad
        > person" because he didn't intend to annoy me. He had no idea
        > he was in the beginning stages of really upsetting me. Plus,
        > I was a member too at that time. He probabaly was assuming
        > that I would agree with him.
        >
        > But it shows what 100% faith in a religion and/or spiritual master
        > does to people. I have always used one term that you did Mish, and
        > that is "delusional." These people really are living in their
        > own world. In my previous posts I have called it their "self-created
        > Eckankar World" or I say they are giving their "alternative
        > universe explanation" for something.
        >
        > In my last months in Eckankar I found it increasingly difficult to
        > deal with people like this. It almost got so bad that when I went
        > to the Eck center I felt like I was in an insane asylum or something.
        > I just couldn't handle it anymore.
        >
        > I also don't believe that every member of Eckankar is as severe as
        > this guy. This person believes in Eckankar 100%. I've met quite a
        > few others like this, but there are some in Eckankar who are not
        > this serious in their devotion to Eckankar and it's masters.
        >
        > Also, this person started talking about Doug Marman and how
        > "Doug explained everything" as a reaction to something that
        > I said. I don't remember exactly what I said, but I don't remember
        > it being a severe anti-Eckankar statement either.
        >
        > Dredging up this memory of this interection with this guy caused
        > several emotions to come to the surface today:

        > 1. My astonishment that someone could actually think like this guy
        > in his blind support for Eckankar/LEMs.

        > 2. Resentment that this guy thought I was stupid enough to
        > believe and accept his explanation that Paul was just "joking"
        > and that this somehow made Paul's lies "OK" or acceptable.
        > After that, I felt the same resentment against Paul Twitchell.

        > 3. Sadness and betrayal that Eckankar had
        > perpetuated all of its various lies on me.

        > 4. Anger at myself for being so stupid to have believed almost
        > all of Eckankar's lies.
        >
        > So I have had a busy day going through all of these emotions.
        > But I am feeling better now.
        >
        > Etznab, in another branch of this thread you wrote:
        > "My question is this: If Paul didn't go to Paris,
        > France, then where and when did he meet his
        > first Eck Master in the physical? Sudar Singh?
        > Has Eckankar Inc. ever clarified this question
        > which naturally arises? I don't know that it has."
        >
        > All I can say is that Eckankar doesn't clarify much of anything.
        > The main reason is if they do the entire "Eckankar story" will
        > quickly unravel. I believe Ford Johnson mentioned this in
        > "Confessions."
        >
        > Also, just a general comment, I have no idea whether Doug Marman
        > said that Paul's story of Paris, France versus Paris, Kentucky was
        > a joke perpetuated by Paul. It's possible that this was this guy's
        > interpretation of what Doug said. Too bad we don't have an
        > "expert" on Doug's book. At this point in time I don't think
        > I would have the patience to read it.
        >
        > Jonathan
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Jonathan
        > >
        > > I really like that you shared this experience with us.
        > > I've wondered why eckists when learning the "truth"
        > > still stand by the teachings and the l.e.m. . . . I've
        > > thought about this a lot since reading your post
        > > yesterday. I feel really sad because it clearly points
        > > to the fact that eckists are delusional and follow the
        > > eck teachings and its master blindly. When people do
        > > that sort of thing, to put total faith and trust into
        > > something or someone, it can be so very dangerous--
        > > dangerous not to use one's head in other words. Laughing
        > > it off is just plain crazy! I wonder how many of these eckists
        > > today who are laughing and "joking" along with PT and
        > > Doug Marman ever met or knew PT in the real? It seems
        > > really odd to put one's faith with someone who has been
        > > long dead and basically obscure but for the few who have
        > > found eckankar. And Doug Marman? Well, I don't think
        > > much of a man who continues to put spins around the truth
        > > to continue the lies . . . and of course, Harold Klemp is
        > > in my opinion a bigger fraud and liar than PT. He knows
        > > the truth, but prefers to have title and money at the expense
        > > of his eck followers . . .
        > >
        > > Etznab, loved your posts too! You said it very well in regards
        > > to what else are lies--the eck masters, meeting Sudar, etc. and
        > > also pointing out where the responsibility of truth lies!
        > >
        > > Great posts! Thank you both!
        > >
        > > Mish
      • jonathanjohns96
        Sharon, Regarding my mispelling of Mish s name. No, I wasn t beating myself over it really, but it seems that I didn t explain what was going on very well. I
        Message 3 of 3 , Mar 3, 2009
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          Sharon,

          Regarding my mispelling of Mish's name. No, I wasn't beating myself
          over it really, but it seems that I didn't explain what was going on
          very well. I had been working through some strong emotions regarding
          the feeling of "How could I have been so stupid to have believed
          Eckankar's lies." In other words, I was angry at myself about that.
          Those emotions were still in me at a very powerful level when I made
          the spelling mistake about Mish's name. So my over-reaction to that
          was do to my feelings toward Eckankar.

          This type of thing happens to me all the time. Spirit always manages
          to find some way for my repressed emotions to come to the surface so
          they can be released.

          Just the same, mispelling the name did upset me a bit because I pride
          myself on remembering people's names.

          Jonathan


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Sharon
          <brighttigress@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi All -
          >
          > Thoughts on today's "digest" - Prometheus, I wondered about
          that "Law of Silence" when I first joined.  For one thing, I'd
          remembered reading you should keep your initiation level to yourself,
          too, but then I noticed in the Mystic World it was frequently
          announced.  And, as the years passed and I met eckists outside of the
          little groups of locals I'd known since I joined, I was rather
          surprised because they'd ask my initiation level before they even
          knew my name!!   Well, not quite - but you know what I mean.
          >
          > I think the bit about not revealing "deep secrets" because Twitch
          knew if people started comparing notes, they'd soon realize there
          were no "deep secrets" to reveal!!  Unless, of course, they'd forked
          over several hundred $$ for one of Twitch's "readings".  When people
          started talking, it turned out he'd give the same 'reading' to more
          than one person!! 
          >
          > Jonathan - and I'm probably mis-spelling your name - lighten up!!  
          I was born with the "spelling gene", and the first time I got into
          trouble was in 2nd grade, when my teacher wrote "desert" instead
          of "dessert" and I innocently corrected her.  She was a vicious
          spiteful bitch, bet me ten cents I couldn't spell all the words in
          the 4th grade reader.  Well, I did it, no problem, but she wouldn't
          give me the dime so I could buy a comic book.  She said I had to buy
          an ice-cream at lunch.  I was a chubby kid and always dieting.  Once
          I announced I was starting a new diet, so at lunchtime she gave me a
          pkg of chocolate cupcakes for lunch.  Back then, there would be 2
          grades in one class so I ended up with this nasty woman for 3 yrs. 
          >
          > Anyway, recently a friend apologized in advance for sending an
          email quickly without using spellcheck first.  Excuse me?   Who
          cares?   Now, I've driven my kids & grandkids nuts because I'm always
          correcting spelling & grammar but I don't do it to be nasty; it's so
          they'll get better grades.  When they got a computer in elementary
          school, I immediately sat down and disabled spellcheck.   Sometimes
          back at a.r.e. I'd correct eckthug spelling just to be nasty,
          though.  I don't bother, I also type fast, I write what I'm thinking,
          I rarely notice typos much less correct them unless the keys are
          sticking.  It's the internet, no one cares.  Also, I saw something
          interesting recently, that if the first & last letters are right, the
          brain ignores any mixed-up letters in the middle. 
          >
          > The point is, what's important is that you're able to communicate. 
          Are you familiar with "teenspeak"?  It's amazing, they've evolved a
          whole 'nother language for texting & chat!  It works!!   Can you
          imagine, if language didn't involve, we'd all be speaking Olde
          English, which isn't easy, although I had a professor would could
          read & speak it!!  
          >
          > I just really feel bad that you beat yourself up for messing up
          someone's name!!  Now, I don't know if that's just the way you are,
          but that's another thing ekult did, turned me inward to always
          watching & judging myself.  I've lightened up *enormously* since
          getting out, I'm "me" again, isn't it funny how something like ekult
          that preaches "unconditional divine love" and tolerance and
          acceptance, etc., actually has the opposite effect?   Because if you
          look at the Org, and Klemp Himself, as Prometheus often points out,
          what they practice and what they preach are two entirely different
          things.
          >
          > A few years back, I read something somewhere that said humans are
          emotional creatures, and it's unnatural to *not* have them.  I think
          it's a matter of degree.  My personal pet peeve was always anger. 
          Didn't like it even as a child, scared the heck out of me in others,
          but even moreso in myself.  But stifling isn't healthy, either.  So,
          I finally gave myself permission to feel angry - well, *almost*
          angry!   I think of it as very pissed off.   I let it happen, and
          then it goes immediately and I'm back to my normal happy self. 
          >
          > Twitchell was an angry person, although he tried to appear
          otherwise.  For example, that story he told about the collection
          agency who dared expect him to pay his bill.  He sicced "the eck" on
          them, and they went out of business.  I remember an HI years back
          telling a similar story at a "worship" service, how a store had
          accidentally billed her full price for an over-$100 soup tureen on
          sale, and she had to make several calls before they fixed it, so she
          hu'd at them.   The thing is, she was just *so* nasty & spiteful
          about it!   It just made me wonder. 
          >
          > Okay, I'm just in one of those "rambling" moods....have a great
          day, everyone, and be good to yourselves!!
          >
          > Hugs,
          >
          > Sharon  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          > From: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Digest Number 1346
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 8:29 AM
          >
          > There are 5 messages in this issue.
          >
          > Topics in this digest:
          >
          > 1a. Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes on us."
          > From: jonathanjohns96
          > 1b. Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes on us."
          > From: jonathanjohns96
          > 1c. Seekers versus Followers
          > From: prometheus_973
          >
          > 2. Re: Digest Number 1345
          > From: Sharon
          >
          > 3. DG Talks About Keeping Silent In ECKankar
          > From: prometheus_973
          >
          >
          > Messages
          >
          ______________________________________________________________________
          __
          > 1a. Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes on us."
          > Posted by: "jonathanjohns96" jonathanjohns96@...
          > jonathanjohns96
          > Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 6:26 am ((PST))
          >
          > Etznab and Mishmisha,
          >
          > I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
          > yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that
          Eckankar
          > was a fraud.
          >
          > As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
          > emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
          >
          > sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
          > based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.
          >
          > Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that
          > is
          > another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
          > something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
          > recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
          > regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other
          things
          > and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
          >
          > Jonathan
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In
          EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
          > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Thank you Etznab and Mishmash for your comments.
          > >
          > > I wouldn't call this individual at the Eck center a "bad
          > person"
          > > because he didn't intend to annoy me. He had no idea he was in
          the
          > > beginning stages of really upsetting me. Plus, I was a member too
          > at
          > > that time. He probabaly was assuming that I would agree with him.
          > >
          > > But it shows what 100% faith in a religion and/or spiritual
          master
          > > does to people. I have always used one term that you did Mish,
          and
          > > that is "delusional." These people really are living in their
          > own
          > > world. In my previous posts I have called it their "self-created
          > > Eckankar World" or I say they are giving their "alternative
          > universe
          > > explanation" for something.
          > >
          > > In my last months in Eckankar I found it increasingly difficult
          to
          > > deal with people like this. It almost got so bad that when I went
          > to
          > > the Eck center I felt like I was in an insane asylum or
          something.
          > I
          > > just couldn't handle it anymore.
          > >
          > > I also don't believe that every member of Eckankar is as severe
          as
          > > this guy. This person believes in Eckankar 100%. I've met quite a
          > few
          > > others like this, but there are some in Eckankar who are not this
          > > serious in their devotion to Eckankar and it's masters.
          > >
          > > Also, this person started talking about Doug Marman and how "Doug
          > > explained everything" as a reaction to something that I said. I
          > don't
          > > remember exactly what I said, but I don't remember it being a
          > severe
          > > anti-Eckankar statement either.
          > >
          > > Dredging up this memory of this interection with this guy caused
          > > several emotions to come to the surface today:
          > > 1. My astonishment that someone could actually think like this
          guy
          > in
          > > his blind support for Eckankar/LEMs.
          > > 2. Resentment that this guy thought I was stupid enough to
          believe
          > > and accept his explanation that Paul was just "joking" and that
          > this
          > > somehow made Paul's lies "OK" or acceptable. After that, I
          > felt the
          > > same resentment against Paul Twitchell.
          > > 3. Sadness and betrayal that Eckankar had perpetuated all of its
          > > various lies on me.
          > > 4. Anger at myself for being so stupid to have believed almost
          all
          > of
          > > Eckankar's lies.
          > >
          > > So I have had a busy day going through all of these emotions. But
          I
          > > am feeling better now.
          > >
          > > Etznab, in another branch of this thread you wrote:
          > > "My question is this: If Paul didn't go to Paris,
          > > France, then where and when did he meet his
          > > first Eck Master in the physical? Sudar Singh?
          > > Has Eckankar Inc. ever clarified this question
          > > which naturally arises? I don't know that it has."
          > >
          > > All I can say is that Eckankar doesn't clarify much of anything.
          > The
          > > main reason is if they do the entire "Eckankar story" will
          > quickly
          > > unravel. I believe Ford Johnson mentioned this in "Confessions."
          > >
          > > Also, just a general comment, I have no idea whether Doug Marman
          > said
          > > that Paul's story of Paris, France versus Paris, Kentucky was a
          > joke
          > > perpetuated by Paul. It's possible that this was this guy's
          > > interpretation of what Doug said. Too bad we don't have an
          > "expert"
          > > on Doug's book. At this point in time I don't think I would have
          > the
          > > patience to read it.
          > >
          > > Jonathan
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          > > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Jonathan
          > > >
          > > > I really like that you shared this experience with us.
          > > > I've wondered why eckists when learning the "truth"
          > > > still stand by the teachings and the l.e.m. . . . I've
          > > > thought about this a lot since reading your post
          > > > yesterday. I feel really sad because it clearly points
          > > > to the fact that eckists are delusional and follow the
          > > > eck teachings and its master blindly. When people do
          > > > that sort of thing, to put total faith and trust into
          > > > something or someone, it can be so very dangerous--
          > > > dangerous not to use one's head in other words. Laughing
          > > > it off is just plain crazy! I wonder how many of these eckists
          > > > today who are laughing and "joking" along with PT and
          > > > Doug Marman ever met or knew PT in the real? It seems
          > > > really odd to put one's faith with someone who has been
          > > > long dead and basically obscure but for the few who have
          > > > found eckankar. And Doug Marman? Well, I don't think
          > > > much of a man who continues to put spins around the truth
          > > > to continue the lies . . . and of course, Harold Klemp is
          > > > in my opinion a bigger fraud and liar than PT. He knows
          > > > the truth, but prefers to have title and money at the expense
          > > > of his eck followers . . .
          > > >
          > > > Etznab, loved your posts too! You said it very well in regards
          > > > to what else are lies--the eck masters, meeting Sudar, etc. and
          > > > also pointing out where the responsibility of truth lies!
          > > >
          > > > Great posts! Thank you both!
          > > >
          > > > Mish
          > > >
          > > > --- In
          > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
          > > > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > All,
          > > > >
          > > > > I made this original post before I went to bed, but now that
          it
          > > is
          > > > > morning I thought that I would explain my view of this
          > situation
          > > a
          > > > > little bit more clearly.
          > > > >
          > > > > As this guy was saying this to me I was thinking to
          > myself "Wow,
          > > this
          > > > > guy is heartless." I found his words to be very disturbing.
          > It
          > > wasn't
          > > > > until I was driving home and started to really think about it
          > > that I
          > > > > started to get angry.
          > > > >
          > > > > But this situation is just one more example of how I was
          > starting
          > > to
          > > > > wake up as to what was really going on in Eckankar. How
          Eckists
          > > will
          > > > > go to any lenghth to exonerate Paul Twitchell from being a
          liar.
          > > > >
          > > > > Jonathan
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In
          > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
          > > > > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > All,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I'm going to vent a little bit. I'm going to tell a
          > short
          > story
          > > > > about
          > > > > > something that happened at the local Eck center.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > In my last year in Eckankar I was at the Eck center. I was
          > in
          > a
          > > > > > person-to-person talk with a guy there about Doug
          > Marman's
          > > book. I
          > > > > > wasn't very familiar with the book then and I am still
          > not
          > very
          > > > > > familiar with the book.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I'm not sure what prompted this person's words, but
          > he
          > > mentioned
          > > > > that
          > > > > > Doug spoke about the fact that debunkers of Eckankar have
          > been
          > > > > > criticising Paul and saying that Twitchell's sister was
          > never
          > > in
          > > > > > Paris, France. In other words, he was saying that the
          > debunkers
          > > > > were
          > > > > > saying that Paul lied.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > And then this guy said that Doug pointed out that
          > Paul's
          > sister
          > > was
          > > > > > actually at art school in Paris, Kentucky, not Paris,
          > France.
          > > and
          > > > > > that Paul had simply played a joke on all of us. And that
          > this
          > > fact
          > > > > > somehow made everthing OK. This guy then went into
          > uproarous
          > > > > laughter
          > > > > > saying "Isn't that funny?" Then he laughed
          > some more.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I may have cracked a small smile just to be polite and go
          > along
          > > > > with
          > > > > > him. But as I was driving home and thinking about this I
          > simply
          > > got
          > > > > > more and more angry. I even said directly to Paul "No,
          > Paul,
          > I
          > > > > don't
          > > > > > think it's funny. You lied to us. Doesn't that mean
          > anything
          > to
          > > > > you?"
          > > > > >
          > > > > > So my point is, this person (Paul Twitchell) writes an
          > > > > autobiography,
          > > > > > misleading everybody to think his sister was in art school
          > in
          > > > > Paris,
          > > > > > France, and then when we members of Eckankar find out the
          > truth
          > > we
          > > > > > are supposed to just think that it is funny? Just laugh it
          > off?
          > > It
          > > > > > really shows how sick these Eckists really are and how sick
          >
          > > Paul
          > > > > > Twitchell really was.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Jonathan
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Messages in this topic (11)
          >
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          > 1b. Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes on us."
          > Posted by: "jonathanjohns96" jonathanjohns96@...
          > jonathanjohns96
          > Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 6:35 am ((PST))
          >
          > Mishmisha,
          >
          > Thanks for your understanding. I will remember that "mishmisha" is
          > apricot in Arabic.
          >
          > I'd rather forget about my goofup, but I think mishmash was
          > describing my state of mind and emotions yesterday as I was healing
          > all of this Eckankar-induced trauma.
          >
          > Also, as soon as I realized my mistake on that post I was saying to
          > myself "How could I have been so stupid! "How could I have been so
          > stupid!" which was exactly how I felt when I found out about the
          lies
          > in Eckankar. So that mistake on your name was really another
          healing
          > for me. It shows how spirit continues to work with me even after
          > leaving Eckankar.
          >
          > Jonathan
          >
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny
          > > really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will
          > > help you keep it sorted out! : )
          > >
          > > I can well imagine the emotions you are going through right now.
          > > I know I felt pretty stupid about my involvement in the cult.
          Can't
          > > believe I fell for it either. However, it has broadened my
          > perceptions
          > > about religions in general and a lot of other things. I hang
          around
          > > here because I do value Truth, and sharing the "eck" experience
          > in
          > > an open and honest way . . . just might help some others to think
          > > about theirs as well.
          > >
          > > Mish
          > >
          > > --- In
          > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
          > > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Mish,
          > > >
          > > > I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your
          > name "mishmisha9."
          > > > Sorry about that. I must have seen the name "mishmash" on
          > another
          > > > message board and it got stuck in my brain. If you knew how
          much
          > I've
          > > > been through today you would know how well my brain and
          emotions
          > are
          > > > fried. I really found it very difficult to even make this
          post,
          > but I
          > > > wanted to respond to your's and Etznab's posts before too
          > much
          > time
          > > > went by.
          > > >
          > > > I'm going to make a big sign and put it on my wall to remind me
          > of your
          > > > name because that always seems to be the only way I can
          > straighten
          > > > something like this out.
          > > >
          > > > Jonathan
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Messages in this topic (11)
          >
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          > 1c. Seekers versus Followers
          > Posted by: "prometheus_973" prometheus_973@...
          > prometheus_973
          > Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 7:47 am ((PST))
          >
          > Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
          > versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
          > ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
          > EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
          > laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
          > according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
          > went to India.
          >
          > Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
          > makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
          > was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
          > Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
          > a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
          > That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
          > joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
          > around mid-1971.
          >
          > The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
          > and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
          > the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
          > of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
          > EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
          > Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
          > even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
          >
          > the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
          > it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
          > who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
          > the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
          > on an individual and private basis. They never have and
          > never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
          > a "joke!"
          >
          > I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
          > seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
          > protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
          > The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
          > inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
          > comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
          > and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
          > become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
          > that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
          > Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
          > often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
          > and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
          > losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
          > turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
          > one has been a Seeker all along!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Jonathan wrote:
          >
          > Etznab and Mishmisha,
          >
          > I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
          > yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
          > was a fraud.
          >
          > As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
          > emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
          > sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
          > based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.
          >
          > Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that
          > is
          > another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
          > something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
          > recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
          > regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
          > and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Messages in this topic (11)
          >
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          > 2. Re: Digest Number 1345
          > Posted by: "Sharon" brighttigress@... brighttigress
          > Date: Sun Mar 1, 2009 7:35 am ((PST))
          >
          > Hi All -
          >
          > Good posts recently!  Reading about that long-time eckist who just
          died, I
          > thought how sad that this probably very nice man wasted his life on
          a lie.  On
          > the other hand, he may have known the truth at some point and
          preferred to stay
          > in denial.  He may have even been not such a nice guy.  He may have
          been one
          > of those "eckthug" types.
          >
          > Anyway, I remembered a story Twitch told in "Difficulties of
          Becoming the
          > LEM", which, if you read it objectively & without the eck-fogged
          > lenses, reveals a lot.  The story was about some drunk "bum" on the
          > street - NOT an "eckmaster" - darn, the book's in a box, I'll
          > get it on the internet one of these days.  The drunk was looking
          for a
          > "Mr. Eck", and Twitch ends up thinking something like "Aha!! 
          > I'll be Mr. Eck!!"  
          >
          > You know, I think this story isn't the only one that really reveals
          > Twitch's contempt for his deluded followers.  I think he was
          laughing at
          > everyone.  He enjoyed pulling the wool over people's eyes, and
          > "Diff" is, in my memory, a book that really shows this if you really
          > look at it from a "literary analysis" viewpoint. 
          >
          > Not too long ago I was reading a transcript of some eckmeeting,
          perhaps a board
          > meeting, Klemp was there of course, and I couldn't help thinking
          ohmigod,
          > these people are wacko and actually believe all this nonsense!   It
          took place
          > during Klemp's early years, it's probably something from Ford
          > Johnson's site. 
          >
          > Yeah, it can be pretty rough when you're first going thru the
          > "deprogramming" process, but it passes.  And getting free is really
          > worth it!!   It helps to get away from it now & then, take a walk
          in the
          > woods, watch funny videos, etc.  There just aren't words to express
          how
          > wonderful it is when you finally find "you" again!!  It just takes
          > time, it's a gradual process, and it's not going to happen
          overnight. 
          > Be patient, and be good to yourself.
          >
          > Take care everyone, and Think Spring!!
          >
          > Hugs,
          >
          > Sharon
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Messages in this topic (1)
          >
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          > 3. DG Talks About Keeping Silent In ECKankar
          > Posted by: "prometheus_973" prometheus_973@...
          > prometheus_973
          > Date: Mon Mar 2, 2009 12:11 am ((PST))
          >
          > There are many "admonitions of keeping silent
          > from the many ECK writings by Sri Paul Twitchell,
          > one of which appeared in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
          > Book One, as well as the individual home study:
          > 'He shall practice not only the Kamit, the Law
          > of Silence with his secret [Initiate] word but
          > shall practice the silence in his own affairs with
          > ECK, and whatever is given him in the secret teachings.
          >
          > 'Whatever the MAHANTA, the Inner Master, gives
          > him in secret through the channels of the inward
          > self, he shall keep secret and not speak of to anyone
          > else. He shall practice this Law of Silence with others
          > who are not to be told any of the deep secrets of ECK.
          > He will not speak about the MAHANTA and their inner
          > relationships, nor of his affairs in the works of ECKankar.
          > Those who do are violating the very heart of the works
          > and shall have to pay in some manner or other...Divine
          > love comes through the practice of the Kamit, which
          > is the Law of Silence. No one can enter the state of love
          > until he knows loyalty, devotion and love for the ECK
          > [Spirit].' {From Heaven To The Prairie, pg. 110}
          >
          > Isn't it strange that Klemp goes against the Kamit
          > [The Law of Silence] by sharing the "stories" that chelas
          > send to him! Of course, if it wasn't for breaking Spiritual
          > Law and sharing these stories HK wouldn't have "written"
          > half the books he has sold and made royalties from!
          > Plus, HK instructs his Vahanas to, also, break the Law
          > of Silence by having chelas share "the deep secrets
          > of ECK." Gross also points out that the Shariyat states
          > that chelas "will Not speak about the MAHANTA and
          > their inner relationships." However, Klemp doesn't really
          > care because he wants the publicity and the testimonials
          > at the expense of his chelas! Unless, of course, it's all
          > a lie and, thus, doesn't matter!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Messages in this topic (1)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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