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Seekers versus Followers

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  • prometheus_973
    Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most ECKists what to admit, or to examine more
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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      Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
      versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
      ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
      EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
      laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
      according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
      went to India.

      Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
      makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
      was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
      Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
      a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
      That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
      joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
      around mid-1971.

      The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
      and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
      the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
      of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
      EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
      Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
      even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
      the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
      it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
      who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
      the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
      on an individual and private basis. They never have and
      never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
      a "joke!"

      I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
      seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
      protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
      The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
      inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
      comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
      and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
      become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
      that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
      Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
      often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
      and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
      losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
      turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
      one has been a Seeker all along!

      Prometheus









      Jonathan wrote:

      Etznab and Mishmisha,

      I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
      yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
      was a fraud.

      As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
      emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
      sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
      based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

      Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
      another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
      something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
      recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
      regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
      and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Jonathan and All, It s true that there are many longtime H.I. chelas that don t really care about the EK RESA hierarchy and the Guidelines. I ve known
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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        Hello Jonathan and All,
        It's true that there are many longtime H.I. chelas
        that don't really care about the EK RESA hierarchy
        and the "Guidelines." I've known some 7ths who've
        acted very passive/aggressive toward this structure
        of doing business.

        As to PT's Paris (France/Kentucky) and India visits to
        meet Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs...it didn't happen!
        Klemp didn't even see his mistake with the info (dates)
        he gave on ECKankar.org with Twitchell's timeline.

        HK states (on the copyright page of the Combined Shariyats)
        that PT was born in 1908. HK, also, states that Twitch,
        at 27 years old *(1935), was "exaggerating" and "twisting
        facts" to get into "Who's Who in Kentucky." Klemp states
        that Twitchell had never traveled far from home although
        he tried to make it seem he had in order to get into this
        Who's Who publication for his own self-promotion. I guess
        that this was another Joke/Lie from that "rascal." Later,
        in this article on Twitchell, Klemp states that in *1935
        that Twitchell met Sudar Singh on his FIRST visit to India
        and that on his SECOND visit, in 1952, PT met Rebazar.
        Note the two 1935 dates that Klemp overlooked!

        It's rather ironic that Klemp did his own self-promotion
        by getting into "The International Who's Who of Intellectuals."
        And yet Klemp, as well as, his chelas don't see his own huge
        ego needs, or that he too is a liar and jokester like Twitch!
        However, the biggest joke is on those 8ths and 9ths! They
        will never see the Light because they will never let go of
        those coveted higher initiations! That's another irony...
        the desire to have that next initiation and the attachment
        to being "high" on the pedestal, and in the EK chicken pecking
        order!

        Prometheus


        Jonathan wrote:
        Thank you Etznab and Mish for your comments.

        [snip]
        I also don't believe that every member of Eckankar
        is as severe as this guy. This person believes in Eckankar
        100%. I've met quite a few others like this, but there
        are some in Eckankar who are not this serious in their
        devotion to Eckankar and it's masters.

        [snip]
        Etznab, in another branch of this thread you wrote:
        "My question is this: If Paul didn't go to Paris,
        France, then where and when did he meet his
        first Eck Master in the physical? Sudar Singh?
        Has Eckankar Inc. ever clarified this question
        which naturally arises? I don't know that it has."
      • etznab@aol.com
        Jonathan, Just do what I do and use the shortened form, Mish. If I tried to spell out the long version I d probably have made Mishmash, too :) Thanks for the
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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          Jonathan,

          Just do what I do and use the shortened form, Mish.
          If I tried to spell out the long version I'd probably have
          made Mishmash, too :)

          Thanks for the humor you two! I get a kick out of
          some of the funny things I read in groups at times.

          Etznab


          -----Original Message-----
          From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 8:35 am
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes
          on us."






          Mishmisha,

          Thanks for your understanding. I will remember that "mishmisha" is
          apricot in Arabic.

          I'd rather forget about my goofup, but I think mishmash was
          describing my state of mind and emotions yesterday as I was healing
          all of this Eckankar-induced trauma.

          Also, as soon as I realized my mistake on that post I was saying to
          myself "How could I have been so stupid! "How could I have been so
          stupid!" which was exactly how I felt when I found out about the lies
          in Eckankar. So that mistake on your name was really another healing
          for me. It shows how spirit continues to work with me even after
          leaving Eckankar.

          Jonathan

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
          >
          > Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny
          > really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will
          > help you keep it sorted out! : )
          >
          > I can well imagine the emotions you are going through right now.
          > I know I felt pretty stupid about my involvement in the cult. Can't
          > believe I fell for it either. However, it has broadened my
          perceptions
          > about religions in general and a lot of other things. I hang around
          > here because I do value Truth, and sharing the "eck" experience in
          > an open and honest way . . . just might help some others to think
          > about theirs as well.
          >
          > Mish
          >
          > --- In
          EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
          > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Mish,
          > >
          > > I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your
          name "mishmisha9."
          > > Sorry about that. I must have seen the name "mishmash" on another
          > > message board and it got stuck in my brain. If you knew how much
          I've
          > > been through today you would know how well my brain and emotions
          are
          > > fried. I really found it very difficult to even make this post,
          but I
          > > wanted to respond to your's and Etznab's posts before too much
          time
          > > went by.
          > >
          > > I'm going to make a big sign and put it on my wall to remind me
          of your
          > > name because that always seems to be the only way I can
          straighten
          > > something like this out.
          > >
          > > Jonathan
          > >
          >
        • etznab@aol.com
          I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover for the new Eckankar catalog. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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            I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
            for the new Eckankar catalog.

            Etznab


            -----Original Message-----
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 9:47 am
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Seekers versus Followers






            Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
            versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
            ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
            EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
            laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
            according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
            went to India.

            Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
            makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
            was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
            Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
            a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
            That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
            joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
            around mid-1971.

            The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
            and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
            the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
            of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
            EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
            Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
            even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
            the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
            it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
            who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
            the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
            on an individual and private basis. They never have and
            never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
            a "joke!"

            I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
            seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
            protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
            The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
            inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
            comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
            and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
            become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
            that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
            Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
            often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
            and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
            losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
            turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
            one has been a Seeker all along!

            Prometheus


            Jonathan wrote:

            Etznab and Mishmisha,

            I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
            yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
            was a fraud.

            As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
            emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
            sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
            based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

            Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
            another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
            something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
            recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
            regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
            and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Etznab and All, I m thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON. HK ll want to clean-up the mistakes and
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
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              Hello Etznab and All,
              I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
              with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.

              HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
              (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
              add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
              March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
              like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
              Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.

              Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
              define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
              have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
              the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!

              And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
              But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
              need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
              This is just another form of editing where Klemp
              needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
              the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
              in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
              believable!

              Prometheus



              etznab wrote:

              I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
              for the new Eckankar catalog.

              Etznab


              Prometheus wrote:

              Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
              versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
              ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
              EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
              laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
              according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
              went to India.

              Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
              makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
              was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
              Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
              a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
              That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
              joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
              around mid-1971.

              The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
              and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
              the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
              of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
              EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
              Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
              even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
              the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
              it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
              who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
              the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
              on an individual and private basis. They never have and
              never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
              a "joke!"

              I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
              seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
              protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
              The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
              inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
              comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
              and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
              become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
              that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
              Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
              often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
              and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
              losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
              turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
              one has been a Seeker all along!

              Prometheus


              Jonathan wrote:

              Etznab and Mishmisha,

              I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
              yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
              was a fraud.

              As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
              emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
              sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
              based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

              Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
              another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
              something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
              recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
              regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
              and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Jonathan and All, Yes, the emotional upset and the mental anguish of discovering that one s religion was a big lie, and a con, is disappointing and
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
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                Hello Jonathan and All,
                Yes, the emotional upset and the mental anguish
                of discovering that one's religion was a big lie, and
                a con, is disappointing and hurtful. One places their
                trust in the words of authority figures who are seen
                as more "spiritually advanced," and in one's own inner
                experiences. Then, when the follower/seeker opens
                their mind to other possibilities and questions the
                contradictions they begin to "see" the Truth. The trust
                in the imagined worlds they have helped to create
                begins to fracture and is eventually shattered. Thus,
                it now becomes difficult to hang onto any real truths.

                One has to ask, What is Truth? Truth is God! And It
                is our own personal and private relationship Without
                the need for someone else to intervene or interpret
                these revelations/experiences of Truth for us.

                On Discovering the Truth About ECKankar:

                There is a danger of developing a disbelief in all things!
                One must Not Lose their Sense of Wonder, although,
                one's "innocence" will certainly be affected. However,
                one can still keep an Open Mind and see the Glass as
                Half-Full. Thus, that Loss of Innocence can be seen as
                a good thing and as "spiritual maturity." One just needs
                to "Keep the Faith in One's Self" and in ALL THAT IS,
                SPIRIT, the FORCE, i.e. SPIRIT, TRUTH, or whatever we
                call IT.

                Religion is, of course, a fraud. It's a Group Belief with
                a Leader that is placed far above his followers and High
                upon a pedestal (M/LEM). And, there are always "carrots"
                that are "dangled" in front of these followers to keep them
                in line, under control, and desiring more. More rewards
                are promised on the "inner" invisible planes of heaven
                and for the next lifetime for Soul (after one's physical
                death of course). the negatives in life are explained away
                as tests and karma while the positives are seen as coming
                from the blessings and intervention of the religious leader.

                Thus, ECKists can only imagine (as the mind naturally
                does) anything that makes them happy and that alleviates
                their natural fears. Then, when this religious delusion
                is shattered, with Reality and Truth, one can become
                disheartened with deception via another religion that
                has become a business. True, some religious cons have
                changed and matured over the years, but all are meant
                to give crumbs of hope to certain like-minded groups
                of individuals. Religions, and their leaders, make money
                and have power which is used to control and manipulate
                the followers.

                The journey, toward the goal, requires one to develop
                their own private "religion."

                This is what Twitchell's "Cliff-Hanger" started out
                to be until Gail encouraged the liar Twit to "share
                it" and "Sell it" to others! Perhaps Twit rationalized
                as Klemp has. This "ECKankar" belief was helping
                those who had rejected the lies and myth of the
                Orthodox (mostly Christian) Religions of their youth.

                See, if religion can remove the fear of death and
                the fear of the unknown and can give the mind peace
                and reassurance through Belief and Faith (along with
                high principles to live by) via the use of the imagination
                then one is doing good for mankind! This is how Klemp
                rationalizes his lies. But, look at the harm he is doing
                with his threats, and to those who are being mislead
                and don't need his religion any longer. HK's threats
                no longer make him a "benevolent dictator" as he likes
                to view himself.

                Klemp sees himself as doing a benefit to Mankind
                (as a KAL agent) by sorting the wheat from the chaff.

                In others words, the ECKankar religion can be seen
                as a "test" for Soul (all religions are a test for Soul).
                Those Souls who are weaker and in need of more time
                and experience (to "cook"), in order to drop their egos
                and desires will need more EK initiations, status, and
                thus, more time to mature. These long-time ECKists
                need much more time and experience in the religion
                before discovering their TRUE nature, Self-confidence,
                individuality and Mastership, and their Oneness with Spirit.

                I admire David Lane and Ford Johnson for their tenacity
                and dedication to uncovering the lies and deceit of ECKankar.

                These two people (Lane and Johnson) helped me and other
                EK Higher Initiates with 25 plus years to pass our "test" and
                "wake-up" in order to see the Truth and leave EK. Even those
                35 plus year 7th Initiates who had finally awakened and left
                ECKankar were brave enough and ego-free enough to leave.
                I will say that I just wasn't as strong or mature to let go of
                religion until I had years of accumulating insight and experience
                via the ECKankar experience and Klemp's fraud.

                Of course, there's another perspective that there was No "KAL"
                or "test" because the belief in the KAL (Devil, Satan) is just another
                Myth of religion.

                Many have remained in ECKankar because of family
                and friend connections (attachments) and, of course,
                due to Ego!

                However, Twitch, in his "Shariyat Book Two, Ch 12"
                gives 7ths a hint, and a choice, as to what they can
                now, finally, do. "He now has the right to choose
                whether he will pursue the rest of the way on the
                path of Eckankar."

                However, for those 7ths who still have some weakness
                (fears) with attachments to strong egos and who haven't
                realized that it was a KAL "test" PT states, "There are five
                more initiations for him to take before entering the circle
                of the Adepts.."

                Thus, (religion) ECKankar is not just Twitchell's joke,
                it is also KAL's! Sometimes old sayings have some
                truth in them... "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!"
                And, "Keep the Faith," but in your own SELF!

                Prometheus


                Jonathan wrote:

                Etznab and Mishmisha,

                I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that
                I went through yesterday. They both have to do with
                when I discovered that Eckankar was a fraud.

                As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me
                that another emotion that came up yesterday was
                "disappointment." That doesn't sound like a severe
                emotion for finding out that your religion was based
                on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday
                too.

                Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence,"
                but that is another emotion that commonly comes up
                when someone believes in something and then the rug
                is pulled out from under them. I don't recall whether
                "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
                regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some
                other things and that can be a very overpowering emotion
                to go through.


                [Klemp - Mr. Obvious/Oblivious]

                prometheus wrote:

                Hello Etznab and All,
                I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.

                HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.

                Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!

                And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                believable!

                Prometheus



                etznab wrote:

                I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                for the new Eckankar catalog.

                Etznab


                [Followers versus Seekers]

                Prometheus wrote:

                Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
                versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
                ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
                EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
                laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
                according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
                went to India.

                Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
                makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
                was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
                Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
                a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
                That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
                joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
                around mid-1971.

                The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
                and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
                the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
                of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
                EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
                Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
                even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
                the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
                it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
                who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
                the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
                on an individual and private basis. They never have and
                never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
                a "joke!"

                I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
                seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
                protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
                The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
                inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
                comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
                and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
                become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
                that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
                Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
                often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
                and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
                losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
                turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
                one has been a Seeker all along!

                Prometheus
              • etznab@aol.com
                About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art leaves with them. Just
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                  if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                  old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                  leaves with them.

                  Just wondering.

                  Etznab

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 12:01 pm
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp - Mr. Obvious/Oblivious



                  Hello Etznab and All,

                  I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out

                  with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.



                  HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights

                  (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and

                  add some new terms that he's used recently (in the

                  March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)

                  like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray

                  Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.



                  Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also

                  define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch

                  have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since

                  the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!



                  And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!

                  But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,

                  need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!

                  This is just another form of editing where Klemp

                  needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances

                  the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imagin
                  ations

                  in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,

                  believable!



                  Prometheus



                  etznab wrote:



                  I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover

                  for the new Eckankar catalog.



                  Etznab



                  Prometheus wrote:



                  Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky

                  versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most

                  ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If

                  EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy

                  laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,

                  according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then

                  went to India.



                  Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only

                  makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there

                  was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar

                  Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told

                  a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.

                  That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,

                  joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"

                  around mid-1971.



                  The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists

                  and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while

                  the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker

                  of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those

                  EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious

                  Fo
                  llowers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't

                  even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in

                  the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't

                  it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,

                  who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least

                  the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"

                  on an individual and private basis. They never have and

                  never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all

                  a "joke!"



                  I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or

                  seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and

                  protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.

                  The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are

                  inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to

                  comply and obey. There are always those authority figures

                  and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've

                  become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn

                  that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).

                  Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more

                  often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence

                  and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply

                  losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what

                  turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that

                  one has been a Seeker all a
                  long!



                  Prometheus



                  Jonathan wrote:



                  Etznab and Mishmisha,



                  I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through

                  yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar

                  was a fraud.



                  As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another

                  emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't

                  sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was

                  based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.



                  Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is

                  another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in

                  something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't

                  recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through

                  regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things

                  and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Etznab and All, It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters, by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar and, thus, still belong to ECKankar.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Etznab and All,
                    It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,
                    by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar
                    and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the
                    images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted
                    too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's
                    descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their
                    pictures.

                    In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley
                    left ECKankar and were recently Touched-Up again.
                    Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!

                    I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated
                    in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently
                    HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.
                    In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.
                    When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing
                    a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!

                    Prometheus



                    Etznab wrote:
                    About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                    if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                    old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                    leaves with them.

                    Just wondering.

                    Etznab


                    Prometheus wrote:


                    Hello Etznab and All,

                    I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out

                    with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.



                    HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights

                    (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and

                    add some new terms that he's used recently (in the

                    March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)

                    like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray

                    Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.



                    Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also

                    define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch

                    have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since

                    the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!



                    And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!

                    But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,

                    need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!

                    This is just another form of editing where Klemp

                    needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances

                    the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations

                    in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,

                    believable!



                    Prometheus



                    etznab wrote:



                    I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover

                    for the new Eckankar catalog.



                    Etznab



                    Prometheus wrote:



                    Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky

                    versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most

                    ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If

                    EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy

                    laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,

                    according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then

                    went to India.



                    Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only

                    makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there

                    was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar

                    Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told

                    a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.

                    That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,

                    joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"

                    around mid-1971.



                    The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists

                    and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while

                    the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker

                    of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those

                    EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious

                    Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't

                    even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in

                    the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't

                    it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,

                    who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least

                    the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"

                    on an individual and private basis. They never have and

                    never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all

                    a "joke!"



                    I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or

                    seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and

                    protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.

                    The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are

                    inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to

                    comply and obey. There are always those authority figures

                    and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've

                    become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn

                    that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).

                    Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more

                    often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence

                    and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply

                    losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what

                    turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that

                    one has been a Seeker all along!



                    Prometheus



                    Jonathan wrote:



                    Etznab and Mishmisha,



                    I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through

                    yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar

                    was a fraud.



                    As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another

                    emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't

                    sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was

                    based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.



                    Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is

                    another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in

                    something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't

                    recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through

                    regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things

                    and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                  • jonathanjohns96
                    All, Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin Gross book Your Right To Know (copyright 1979) there are four ink line drawings of Eck masters:
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      All,

                      Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin Gross' book "Your Right To Know"(copyright 1979) there are four ink line drawings of Eck masters: Fubbi Quantz, Gopal Das, Lai Tsi, and Rebazar Tarzs [sic]. They pretty much look the way they "should" look. I would say the quality of the drawings is very high. On page ii it states "Ink sketches by Helen Baird." I don't know whether these predate Diane Stanleys artwork or not.

                      Jonathan


                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Etznab and All,
                      > It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,
                      > by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar
                      > and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the
                      > images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted
                      > too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's
                      > descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their
                      > pictures.
                      >
                      > In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley
                      > left ECKankar and were recently Touched-Up again.
                      > Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!
                      >
                      > I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated
                      > in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently
                      > HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.
                      > In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.
                      > When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing
                      > a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Etznab wrote:
                      > About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                      > if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                      > old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                      > leaves with them.
                      >
                      > Just wondering.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      >
                      > Prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello Etznab and All,
                      >
                      > I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                      >
                      > with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                      >
                      > (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                      >
                      > add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                      >
                      > March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                      >
                      > like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                      >
                      > Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                      >
                      > define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                      >
                      > have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                      >
                      > the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                      >
                      > But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                      >
                      > need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                      >
                      > This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                      >
                      > needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                      >
                      > the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                      >
                      > in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                      >
                      > believable!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > etznab wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                      >
                      > for the new Eckankar catalog.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Jonathan and All, Yes, I remember Helen s sketches. I think she was the one that came up with the currently used EK symbol versus the Greek looking
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 4, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello Jonathan and All,
                        Yes, I remember Helen's sketches. I think she
                        was the one that came up with the currently
                        used "EK" symbol versus the Greek looking
                        letters. I remember her telling me once that
                        she was in HK's Satsang Class, in Las Vegas,
                        and that Harry was the Arahata.

                        BTW- When compared to the recent pics
                        of Yaubl and Fubbi how do Helen's sketches
                        differ? What changes have been made in their
                        appearances between then and now? Are they
                        turning younger like Benjamin Button? If so,
                        that would be like in the movie!

                        Prometheus



                        Jonathan wrote:
                        All,

                        Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin
                        Gross' book "Your Right To Know"(copyright 1979) there
                        are four ink line drawings of Eck masters: Fubbi Quantz,
                        Gopal Das, Lai Tsi, and Rebazar Tarzs [sic]. They pretty
                        much look the way they "should" look. I would say the
                        quality of the drawings is very high. On page ii it states
                        "Ink sketches by Helen Baird." I don't know whether these
                        predate Diane Stanleys artwork or not.

                        Jonathan


                        prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Etznab and All,
                        > It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,
                        > by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar
                        > and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the
                        > images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted
                        > too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's
                        > descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their
                        > pictures.
                        >
                        > In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley
                        > left ECKankar and were recently Touched-Up again.
                        > Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!
                        >
                        > I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated
                        > in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently
                        > HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.
                        > In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.
                        > When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing
                        > a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Etznab wrote:
                        > About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                        > if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                        > old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                        > leaves with them.
                        >
                        > Just wondering.
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                        >
                        > Prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello Etznab and All,
                        >
                        > I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                        >
                        > with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                        >
                        > (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                        >
                        > add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                        >
                        > March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                        >
                        > like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                        >
                        > Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                        >
                        > define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                        >
                        > have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                        >
                        > the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                        >
                        > But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                        >
                        > need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                        >
                        > This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                        >
                        > needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                        >
                        > the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                        >
                        > in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                        >
                        > believable!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > etznab wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                        >
                        > for the new Eckankar catalog.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Etznab
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        Jonathan, That s one book I don t have, but thanks for sharing that. Etznab ... From: jonathanjohns96 To:
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 4, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Jonathan,

                          That's one book I don't have, but thanks
                          for sharing that.

                          Etznab

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 8:57 pm
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Make-Over and Touch-Up of
                          the EK Masters



                          All,



                          Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin Gross' book
                          "Your Right To Know"(copyright 1979) there are four ink line drawings
                          of Eck masters: Fubbi Quantz, Gopal Das, Lai Tsi, and Rebazar Tarzs
                          [sic]. They pretty much look the way they "should" look. I would say
                          the quality of the drawings is very high. On page ii it states "Ink
                          sketches by Helen Baird." I don't know whether these predate Diane
                          Stanleys artwork or not.



                          Jonathan



                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                          >

                          > Hello Etznab and All,

                          > It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,

                          > by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar

                          > and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the

                          > images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted

                          > too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's

                          > descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their

                          > pictures.

                          >

                          > In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley

                          > left ECKankar and20were recently Touched-Up again.

                          > Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!

                          >

                          > I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated

                          > in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently

                          > HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.

                          > In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.

                          > When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing

                          > a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!

                          >

                          > Prometheus

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Etznab wrote:

                          > About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering

                          > if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If

                          > old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art

                          > leaves with them.

                          >

                          > Just wondering.

                          >

                          > Etznab

                          >

                          >

                          > Prometheus wrote:

                          >

                          >

                          > Hello Etznab and All,

                          >

                          > I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out

                          >

                          > with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights

                          >

                          > (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and

                          >

                          > add some new terms that he's used recently (in the

                          >

                          > March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)

                          >

                          > like: White Magic;=2
                          0White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray

                          >

                          > Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also

                          >

                          > define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch

                          >

                          > have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since

                          >

                          > the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!

                          >

                          > But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,

                          >

                          > need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!

                          >

                          > This is just another form of editing where Klemp

                          >

                          > needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances

                          >

                          > the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations

                          >

                          > in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,

                          >

                          > believable!

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Prometheus

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > etznab wrote:

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover

                          >

                          > for the new Eckankar catalog.

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Etznab

                          >

                          >

                          >
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