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Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes on us."

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  • jonathanjohns96
    Etznab and Mishmisha, I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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      Etznab and Mishmisha,

      I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
      yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
      was a fraud.

      As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
      emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
      sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
      based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

      Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
      another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
      something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
      recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
      regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
      and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.

      Jonathan



      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
      <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thank you Etznab and Mishmash for your comments.
      >
      > I wouldn't call this individual at the Eck center a "bad person"
      > because he didn't intend to annoy me. He had no idea he was in the
      > beginning stages of really upsetting me. Plus, I was a member too
      at
      > that time. He probabaly was assuming that I would agree with him.
      >
      > But it shows what 100% faith in a religion and/or spiritual master
      > does to people. I have always used one term that you did Mish, and
      > that is "delusional." These people really are living in their own
      > world. In my previous posts I have called it their "self-created
      > Eckankar World" or I say they are giving their "alternative
      universe
      > explanation" for something.
      >
      > In my last months in Eckankar I found it increasingly difficult to
      > deal with people like this. It almost got so bad that when I went
      to
      > the Eck center I felt like I was in an insane asylum or something.
      I
      > just couldn't handle it anymore.
      >
      > I also don't believe that every member of Eckankar is as severe as
      > this guy. This person believes in Eckankar 100%. I've met quite a
      few
      > others like this, but there are some in Eckankar who are not this
      > serious in their devotion to Eckankar and it's masters.
      >
      > Also, this person started talking about Doug Marman and how "Doug
      > explained everything" as a reaction to something that I said. I
      don't
      > remember exactly what I said, but I don't remember it being a
      severe
      > anti-Eckankar statement either.
      >
      > Dredging up this memory of this interection with this guy caused
      > several emotions to come to the surface today:
      > 1. My astonishment that someone could actually think like this guy
      in
      > his blind support for Eckankar/LEMs.
      > 2. Resentment that this guy thought I was stupid enough to believe
      > and accept his explanation that Paul was just "joking" and that
      this
      > somehow made Paul's lies "OK" or acceptable. After that, I felt the
      > same resentment against Paul Twitchell.
      > 3. Sadness and betrayal that Eckankar had perpetuated all of its
      > various lies on me.
      > 4. Anger at myself for being so stupid to have believed almost all
      of
      > Eckankar's lies.
      >
      > So I have had a busy day going through all of these emotions. But I
      > am feeling better now.
      >
      > Etznab, in another branch of this thread you wrote:
      > "My question is this: If Paul didn't go to Paris,
      > France, then where and when did he meet his
      > first Eck Master in the physical? Sudar Singh?
      > Has Eckankar Inc. ever clarified this question
      > which naturally arises? I don't know that it has."
      >
      > All I can say is that Eckankar doesn't clarify much of anything.
      The
      > main reason is if they do the entire "Eckankar story" will quickly
      > unravel. I believe Ford Johnson mentioned this in "Confessions."
      >
      > Also, just a general comment, I have no idea whether Doug Marman
      said
      > that Paul's story of Paris, France versus Paris, Kentucky was a
      joke
      > perpetuated by Paul. It's possible that this was this guy's
      > interpretation of what Doug said. Too bad we don't have an "expert"
      > on Doug's book. At this point in time I don't think I would have
      the
      > patience to read it.
      >
      > Jonathan
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
      > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Jonathan
      > >
      > > I really like that you shared this experience with us.
      > > I've wondered why eckists when learning the "truth"
      > > still stand by the teachings and the l.e.m. . . . I've
      > > thought about this a lot since reading your post
      > > yesterday. I feel really sad because it clearly points
      > > to the fact that eckists are delusional and follow the
      > > eck teachings and its master blindly. When people do
      > > that sort of thing, to put total faith and trust into
      > > something or someone, it can be so very dangerous--
      > > dangerous not to use one's head in other words. Laughing
      > > it off is just plain crazy! I wonder how many of these eckists
      > > today who are laughing and "joking" along with PT and
      > > Doug Marman ever met or knew PT in the real? It seems
      > > really odd to put one's faith with someone who has been
      > > long dead and basically obscure but for the few who have
      > > found eckankar. And Doug Marman? Well, I don't think
      > > much of a man who continues to put spins around the truth
      > > to continue the lies . . . and of course, Harold Klemp is
      > > in my opinion a bigger fraud and liar than PT. He knows
      > > the truth, but prefers to have title and money at the expense
      > > of his eck followers . . .
      > >
      > > Etznab, loved your posts too! You said it very well in regards
      > > to what else are lies--the eck masters, meeting Sudar, etc. and
      > > also pointing out where the responsibility of truth lies!
      > >
      > > Great posts! Thank you both!
      > >
      > > Mish
      > >
      > > --- In
      > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
      > > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > All,
      > > >
      > > > I made this original post before I went to bed, but now that it
      > is
      > > > morning I thought that I would explain my view of this
      situation
      > a
      > > > little bit more clearly.
      > > >
      > > > As this guy was saying this to me I was thinking to
      myself "Wow,
      > this
      > > > guy is heartless." I found his words to be very disturbing. It
      > wasn't
      > > > until I was driving home and started to really think about it
      > that I
      > > > started to get angry.
      > > >
      > > > But this situation is just one more example of how I was
      starting
      > to
      > > > wake up as to what was really going on in Eckankar. How Eckists
      > will
      > > > go to any lenghth to exonerate Paul Twitchell from being a liar.
      > > >
      > > > Jonathan
      > > >
      > > > --- In
      > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
      > > > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > All,
      > > > >
      > > > > I'm going to vent a little bit. I'm going to tell a short
      story
      > > > about
      > > > > something that happened at the local Eck center.
      > > > >
      > > > > In my last year in Eckankar I was at the Eck center. I was in
      a
      > > > > person-to-person talk with a guy there about Doug Marman's
      > book. I
      > > > > wasn't very familiar with the book then and I am still not
      very
      > > > > familiar with the book.
      > > > >
      > > > > I'm not sure what prompted this person's words, but he
      > mentioned
      > > > that
      > > > > Doug spoke about the fact that debunkers of Eckankar have
      been
      > > > > criticising Paul and saying that Twitchell's sister was never
      > in
      > > > > Paris, France. In other words, he was saying that the
      debunkers
      > > > were
      > > > > saying that Paul lied.
      > > > >
      > > > > And then this guy said that Doug pointed out that Paul's
      sister
      > was
      > > > > actually at art school in Paris, Kentucky, not Paris, France.
      > and
      > > > > that Paul had simply played a joke on all of us. And that
      this
      > fact
      > > > > somehow made everthing OK. This guy then went into uproarous
      > > > laughter
      > > > > saying "Isn't that funny?" Then he laughed some more.
      > > > >
      > > > > I may have cracked a small smile just to be polite and go
      along
      > > > with
      > > > > him. But as I was driving home and thinking about this I
      simply
      > got
      > > > > more and more angry. I even said directly to Paul "No, Paul,
      I
      > > > don't
      > > > > think it's funny. You lied to us. Doesn't that mean anything
      to
      > > > you?"
      > > > >
      > > > > So my point is, this person (Paul Twitchell) writes an
      > > > autobiography,
      > > > > misleading everybody to think his sister was in art school in
      > > > Paris,
      > > > > France, and then when we members of Eckankar find out the
      truth
      > we
      > > > > are supposed to just think that it is funny? Just laugh it
      off?
      > It
      > > > > really shows how sick these Eckists really are and how sick
      > Paul
      > > > > Twitchell really was.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jonathan
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • jonathanjohns96
      Mishmisha, Thanks for your understanding. I will remember that mishmisha is apricot in Arabic. I d rather forget about my goofup, but I think mishmash was
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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        Mishmisha,

        Thanks for your understanding. I will remember that "mishmisha" is
        apricot in Arabic.

        I'd rather forget about my goofup, but I think mishmash was
        describing my state of mind and emotions yesterday as I was healing
        all of this Eckankar-induced trauma.

        Also, as soon as I realized my mistake on that post I was saying to
        myself "How could I have been so stupid! "How could I have been so
        stupid!" which was exactly how I felt when I found out about the lies
        in Eckankar. So that mistake on your name was really another healing
        for me. It shows how spirit continues to work with me even after
        leaving Eckankar.

        Jonathan


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
        <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
        >
        > Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny
        > really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will
        > help you keep it sorted out! : )
        >
        > I can well imagine the emotions you are going through right now.
        > I know I felt pretty stupid about my involvement in the cult. Can't
        > believe I fell for it either. However, it has broadened my
        perceptions
        > about religions in general and a lot of other things. I hang around
        > here because I do value Truth, and sharing the "eck" experience in
        > an open and honest way . . . just might help some others to think
        > about theirs as well.
        >
        > Mish
        >
        > --- In
        EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
        > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Mish,
        > >
        > > I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your
        name "mishmisha9."
        > > Sorry about that. I must have seen the name "mishmash" on another
        > > message board and it got stuck in my brain. If you knew how much
        I've
        > > been through today you would know how well my brain and emotions
        are
        > > fried. I really found it very difficult to even make this post,
        but I
        > > wanted to respond to your's and Etznab's posts before too much
        time
        > > went by.
        > >
        > > I'm going to make a big sign and put it on my wall to remind me
        of your
        > > name because that always seems to be the only way I can
        straighten
        > > something like this out.
        > >
        > > Jonathan
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most ECKists what to admit, or to examine more
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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          Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
          versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
          ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
          EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
          laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
          according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
          went to India.

          Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
          makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
          was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
          Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
          a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
          That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
          joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
          around mid-1971.

          The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
          and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
          the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
          of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
          EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
          Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
          even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
          the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
          it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
          who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
          the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
          on an individual and private basis. They never have and
          never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
          a "joke!"

          I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
          seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
          protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
          The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
          inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
          comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
          and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
          become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
          that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
          Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
          often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
          and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
          losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
          turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
          one has been a Seeker all along!

          Prometheus









          Jonathan wrote:

          Etznab and Mishmisha,

          I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
          yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
          was a fraud.

          As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
          emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
          sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
          based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

          Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
          another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
          something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
          recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
          regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
          and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan and All, It s true that there are many longtime H.I. chelas that don t really care about the EK RESA hierarchy and the Guidelines. I ve known
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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            Hello Jonathan and All,
            It's true that there are many longtime H.I. chelas
            that don't really care about the EK RESA hierarchy
            and the "Guidelines." I've known some 7ths who've
            acted very passive/aggressive toward this structure
            of doing business.

            As to PT's Paris (France/Kentucky) and India visits to
            meet Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs...it didn't happen!
            Klemp didn't even see his mistake with the info (dates)
            he gave on ECKankar.org with Twitchell's timeline.

            HK states (on the copyright page of the Combined Shariyats)
            that PT was born in 1908. HK, also, states that Twitch,
            at 27 years old *(1935), was "exaggerating" and "twisting
            facts" to get into "Who's Who in Kentucky." Klemp states
            that Twitchell had never traveled far from home although
            he tried to make it seem he had in order to get into this
            Who's Who publication for his own self-promotion. I guess
            that this was another Joke/Lie from that "rascal." Later,
            in this article on Twitchell, Klemp states that in *1935
            that Twitchell met Sudar Singh on his FIRST visit to India
            and that on his SECOND visit, in 1952, PT met Rebazar.
            Note the two 1935 dates that Klemp overlooked!

            It's rather ironic that Klemp did his own self-promotion
            by getting into "The International Who's Who of Intellectuals."
            And yet Klemp, as well as, his chelas don't see his own huge
            ego needs, or that he too is a liar and jokester like Twitch!
            However, the biggest joke is on those 8ths and 9ths! They
            will never see the Light because they will never let go of
            those coveted higher initiations! That's another irony...
            the desire to have that next initiation and the attachment
            to being "high" on the pedestal, and in the EK chicken pecking
            order!

            Prometheus


            Jonathan wrote:
            Thank you Etznab and Mish for your comments.

            [snip]
            I also don't believe that every member of Eckankar
            is as severe as this guy. This person believes in Eckankar
            100%. I've met quite a few others like this, but there
            are some in Eckankar who are not this serious in their
            devotion to Eckankar and it's masters.

            [snip]
            Etznab, in another branch of this thread you wrote:
            "My question is this: If Paul didn't go to Paris,
            France, then where and when did he meet his
            first Eck Master in the physical? Sudar Singh?
            Has Eckankar Inc. ever clarified this question
            which naturally arises? I don't know that it has."
          • etznab@aol.com
            Jonathan, Just do what I do and use the shortened form, Mish. If I tried to spell out the long version I d probably have made Mishmash, too :) Thanks for the
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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              Jonathan,

              Just do what I do and use the shortened form, Mish.
              If I tried to spell out the long version I'd probably have
              made Mishmash, too :)

              Thanks for the humor you two! I get a kick out of
              some of the funny things I read in groups at times.

              Etznab


              -----Original Message-----
              From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 8:35 am
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes
              on us."






              Mishmisha,

              Thanks for your understanding. I will remember that "mishmisha" is
              apricot in Arabic.

              I'd rather forget about my goofup, but I think mishmash was
              describing my state of mind and emotions yesterday as I was healing
              all of this Eckankar-induced trauma.

              Also, as soon as I realized my mistake on that post I was saying to
              myself "How could I have been so stupid! "How could I have been so
              stupid!" which was exactly how I felt when I found out about the lies
              in Eckankar. So that mistake on your name was really another healing
              for me. It shows how spirit continues to work with me even after
              leaving Eckankar.

              Jonathan

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
              <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny
              > really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will
              > help you keep it sorted out! : )
              >
              > I can well imagine the emotions you are going through right now.
              > I know I felt pretty stupid about my involvement in the cult. Can't
              > believe I fell for it either. However, it has broadened my
              perceptions
              > about religions in general and a lot of other things. I hang around
              > here because I do value Truth, and sharing the "eck" experience in
              > an open and honest way . . . just might help some others to think
              > about theirs as well.
              >
              > Mish
              >
              > --- In
              EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
              > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Mish,
              > >
              > > I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your
              name "mishmisha9."
              > > Sorry about that. I must have seen the name "mishmash" on another
              > > message board and it got stuck in my brain. If you knew how much
              I've
              > > been through today you would know how well my brain and emotions
              are
              > > fried. I really found it very difficult to even make this post,
              but I
              > > wanted to respond to your's and Etznab's posts before too much
              time
              > > went by.
              > >
              > > I'm going to make a big sign and put it on my wall to remind me
              of your
              > > name because that always seems to be the only way I can
              straighten
              > > something like this out.
              > >
              > > Jonathan
              > >
              >
            • etznab@aol.com
              I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover for the new Eckankar catalog. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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                I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                for the new Eckankar catalog.

                Etznab


                -----Original Message-----
                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 9:47 am
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Seekers versus Followers






                Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
                versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
                ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
                EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
                laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
                according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
                went to India.

                Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
                makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
                was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
                Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
                a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
                That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
                joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
                around mid-1971.

                The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
                and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
                the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
                of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
                EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
                Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
                even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
                the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
                it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
                who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
                the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
                on an individual and private basis. They never have and
                never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
                a "joke!"

                I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
                seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
                protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
                The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
                inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
                comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
                and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
                become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
                that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
                Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
                often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
                and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
                losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
                turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
                one has been a Seeker all along!

                Prometheus


                Jonathan wrote:

                Etznab and Mishmisha,

                I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
                yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
                was a fraud.

                As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
                emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
                sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
                based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

                Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
                another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
                something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
                recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
                regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
                and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Etznab and All, I m thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON. HK ll want to clean-up the mistakes and
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
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                  Hello Etznab and All,
                  I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                  with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.

                  HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                  (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                  add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                  March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                  like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                  Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.

                  Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                  define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                  have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                  the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!

                  And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                  But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                  need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                  This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                  needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                  the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                  in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                  believable!

                  Prometheus



                  etznab wrote:

                  I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                  for the new Eckankar catalog.

                  Etznab


                  Prometheus wrote:

                  Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
                  versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
                  ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
                  EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
                  laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
                  according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
                  went to India.

                  Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
                  makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
                  was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
                  Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
                  a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
                  That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
                  joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
                  around mid-1971.

                  The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
                  and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
                  the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
                  of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
                  EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
                  Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
                  even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
                  the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
                  it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
                  who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
                  the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
                  on an individual and private basis. They never have and
                  never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
                  a "joke!"

                  I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
                  seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
                  protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
                  The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
                  inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
                  comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
                  and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
                  become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
                  that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
                  Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
                  often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
                  and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
                  losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
                  turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
                  one has been a Seeker all along!

                  Prometheus


                  Jonathan wrote:

                  Etznab and Mishmisha,

                  I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
                  yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
                  was a fraud.

                  As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
                  emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
                  sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
                  based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

                  Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
                  another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
                  something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
                  recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
                  regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
                  and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Jonathan and All, Yes, the emotional upset and the mental anguish of discovering that one s religion was a big lie, and a con, is disappointing and
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Jonathan and All,
                    Yes, the emotional upset and the mental anguish
                    of discovering that one's religion was a big lie, and
                    a con, is disappointing and hurtful. One places their
                    trust in the words of authority figures who are seen
                    as more "spiritually advanced," and in one's own inner
                    experiences. Then, when the follower/seeker opens
                    their mind to other possibilities and questions the
                    contradictions they begin to "see" the Truth. The trust
                    in the imagined worlds they have helped to create
                    begins to fracture and is eventually shattered. Thus,
                    it now becomes difficult to hang onto any real truths.

                    One has to ask, What is Truth? Truth is God! And It
                    is our own personal and private relationship Without
                    the need for someone else to intervene or interpret
                    these revelations/experiences of Truth for us.

                    On Discovering the Truth About ECKankar:

                    There is a danger of developing a disbelief in all things!
                    One must Not Lose their Sense of Wonder, although,
                    one's "innocence" will certainly be affected. However,
                    one can still keep an Open Mind and see the Glass as
                    Half-Full. Thus, that Loss of Innocence can be seen as
                    a good thing and as "spiritual maturity." One just needs
                    to "Keep the Faith in One's Self" and in ALL THAT IS,
                    SPIRIT, the FORCE, i.e. SPIRIT, TRUTH, or whatever we
                    call IT.

                    Religion is, of course, a fraud. It's a Group Belief with
                    a Leader that is placed far above his followers and High
                    upon a pedestal (M/LEM). And, there are always "carrots"
                    that are "dangled" in front of these followers to keep them
                    in line, under control, and desiring more. More rewards
                    are promised on the "inner" invisible planes of heaven
                    and for the next lifetime for Soul (after one's physical
                    death of course). the negatives in life are explained away
                    as tests and karma while the positives are seen as coming
                    from the blessings and intervention of the religious leader.

                    Thus, ECKists can only imagine (as the mind naturally
                    does) anything that makes them happy and that alleviates
                    their natural fears. Then, when this religious delusion
                    is shattered, with Reality and Truth, one can become
                    disheartened with deception via another religion that
                    has become a business. True, some religious cons have
                    changed and matured over the years, but all are meant
                    to give crumbs of hope to certain like-minded groups
                    of individuals. Religions, and their leaders, make money
                    and have power which is used to control and manipulate
                    the followers.

                    The journey, toward the goal, requires one to develop
                    their own private "religion."

                    This is what Twitchell's "Cliff-Hanger" started out
                    to be until Gail encouraged the liar Twit to "share
                    it" and "Sell it" to others! Perhaps Twit rationalized
                    as Klemp has. This "ECKankar" belief was helping
                    those who had rejected the lies and myth of the
                    Orthodox (mostly Christian) Religions of their youth.

                    See, if religion can remove the fear of death and
                    the fear of the unknown and can give the mind peace
                    and reassurance through Belief and Faith (along with
                    high principles to live by) via the use of the imagination
                    then one is doing good for mankind! This is how Klemp
                    rationalizes his lies. But, look at the harm he is doing
                    with his threats, and to those who are being mislead
                    and don't need his religion any longer. HK's threats
                    no longer make him a "benevolent dictator" as he likes
                    to view himself.

                    Klemp sees himself as doing a benefit to Mankind
                    (as a KAL agent) by sorting the wheat from the chaff.

                    In others words, the ECKankar religion can be seen
                    as a "test" for Soul (all religions are a test for Soul).
                    Those Souls who are weaker and in need of more time
                    and experience (to "cook"), in order to drop their egos
                    and desires will need more EK initiations, status, and
                    thus, more time to mature. These long-time ECKists
                    need much more time and experience in the religion
                    before discovering their TRUE nature, Self-confidence,
                    individuality and Mastership, and their Oneness with Spirit.

                    I admire David Lane and Ford Johnson for their tenacity
                    and dedication to uncovering the lies and deceit of ECKankar.

                    These two people (Lane and Johnson) helped me and other
                    EK Higher Initiates with 25 plus years to pass our "test" and
                    "wake-up" in order to see the Truth and leave EK. Even those
                    35 plus year 7th Initiates who had finally awakened and left
                    ECKankar were brave enough and ego-free enough to leave.
                    I will say that I just wasn't as strong or mature to let go of
                    religion until I had years of accumulating insight and experience
                    via the ECKankar experience and Klemp's fraud.

                    Of course, there's another perspective that there was No "KAL"
                    or "test" because the belief in the KAL (Devil, Satan) is just another
                    Myth of religion.

                    Many have remained in ECKankar because of family
                    and friend connections (attachments) and, of course,
                    due to Ego!

                    However, Twitch, in his "Shariyat Book Two, Ch 12"
                    gives 7ths a hint, and a choice, as to what they can
                    now, finally, do. "He now has the right to choose
                    whether he will pursue the rest of the way on the
                    path of Eckankar."

                    However, for those 7ths who still have some weakness
                    (fears) with attachments to strong egos and who haven't
                    realized that it was a KAL "test" PT states, "There are five
                    more initiations for him to take before entering the circle
                    of the Adepts.."

                    Thus, (religion) ECKankar is not just Twitchell's joke,
                    it is also KAL's! Sometimes old sayings have some
                    truth in them... "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!"
                    And, "Keep the Faith," but in your own SELF!

                    Prometheus


                    Jonathan wrote:

                    Etznab and Mishmisha,

                    I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that
                    I went through yesterday. They both have to do with
                    when I discovered that Eckankar was a fraud.

                    As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me
                    that another emotion that came up yesterday was
                    "disappointment." That doesn't sound like a severe
                    emotion for finding out that your religion was based
                    on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday
                    too.

                    Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence,"
                    but that is another emotion that commonly comes up
                    when someone believes in something and then the rug
                    is pulled out from under them. I don't recall whether
                    "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
                    regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some
                    other things and that can be a very overpowering emotion
                    to go through.


                    [Klemp - Mr. Obvious/Oblivious]

                    prometheus wrote:

                    Hello Etznab and All,
                    I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                    with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.

                    HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                    (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                    add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                    March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                    like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                    Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.

                    Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                    define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                    have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                    the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!

                    And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                    But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                    need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                    This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                    needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                    the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                    in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                    believable!

                    Prometheus



                    etznab wrote:

                    I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                    for the new Eckankar catalog.

                    Etznab


                    [Followers versus Seekers]

                    Prometheus wrote:

                    Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
                    versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
                    ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
                    EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
                    laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
                    according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
                    went to India.

                    Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
                    makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
                    was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
                    Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
                    a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
                    That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
                    joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
                    around mid-1971.

                    The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
                    and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
                    the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
                    of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
                    EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
                    Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
                    even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
                    the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
                    it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
                    who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
                    the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
                    on an individual and private basis. They never have and
                    never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
                    a "joke!"

                    I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
                    seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
                    protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
                    The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
                    inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
                    comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
                    and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
                    become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
                    that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
                    Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
                    often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
                    and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
                    losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
                    turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
                    one has been a Seeker all along!

                    Prometheus
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art leaves with them. Just
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                      if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                      old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                      leaves with them.

                      Just wondering.

                      Etznab

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 12:01 pm
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp - Mr. Obvious/Oblivious



                      Hello Etznab and All,

                      I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out

                      with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.



                      HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights

                      (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and

                      add some new terms that he's used recently (in the

                      March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)

                      like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray

                      Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.



                      Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also

                      define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch

                      have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since

                      the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!



                      And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!

                      But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,

                      need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!

                      This is just another form of editing where Klemp

                      needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances

                      the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imagin
                      ations

                      in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,

                      believable!



                      Prometheus



                      etznab wrote:



                      I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover

                      for the new Eckankar catalog.



                      Etznab



                      Prometheus wrote:



                      Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky

                      versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most

                      ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If

                      EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy

                      laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,

                      according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then

                      went to India.



                      Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only

                      makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there

                      was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar

                      Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told

                      a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.

                      That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,

                      joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"

                      around mid-1971.



                      The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists

                      and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while

                      the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker

                      of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those

                      EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious

                      Fo
                      llowers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't

                      even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in

                      the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't

                      it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,

                      who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least

                      the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"

                      on an individual and private basis. They never have and

                      never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all

                      a "joke!"



                      I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or

                      seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and

                      protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.

                      The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are

                      inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to

                      comply and obey. There are always those authority figures

                      and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've

                      become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn

                      that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).

                      Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more

                      often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence

                      and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply

                      losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what

                      turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that

                      one has been a Seeker all a
                      long!



                      Prometheus



                      Jonathan wrote:



                      Etznab and Mishmisha,



                      I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through

                      yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar

                      was a fraud.



                      As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another

                      emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't

                      sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was

                      based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.



                      Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is

                      another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in

                      something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't

                      recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through

                      regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things

                      and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Etznab and All, It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters, by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar and, thus, still belong to ECKankar.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello Etznab and All,
                        It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,
                        by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar
                        and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the
                        images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted
                        too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's
                        descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their
                        pictures.

                        In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley
                        left ECKankar and were recently Touched-Up again.
                        Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!

                        I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated
                        in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently
                        HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.
                        In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.
                        When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing
                        a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!

                        Prometheus



                        Etznab wrote:
                        About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                        if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                        old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                        leaves with them.

                        Just wondering.

                        Etznab


                        Prometheus wrote:


                        Hello Etznab and All,

                        I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out

                        with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.



                        HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights

                        (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and

                        add some new terms that he's used recently (in the

                        March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)

                        like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray

                        Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.



                        Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also

                        define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch

                        have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since

                        the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!



                        And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!

                        But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,

                        need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!

                        This is just another form of editing where Klemp

                        needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances

                        the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations

                        in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,

                        believable!



                        Prometheus



                        etznab wrote:



                        I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover

                        for the new Eckankar catalog.



                        Etznab



                        Prometheus wrote:



                        Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky

                        versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most

                        ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If

                        EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy

                        laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,

                        according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then

                        went to India.



                        Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only

                        makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there

                        was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar

                        Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told

                        a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.

                        That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,

                        joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"

                        around mid-1971.



                        The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists

                        and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while

                        the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker

                        of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those

                        EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious

                        Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't

                        even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in

                        the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't

                        it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,

                        who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least

                        the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"

                        on an individual and private basis. They never have and

                        never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all

                        a "joke!"



                        I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or

                        seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and

                        protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.

                        The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are

                        inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to

                        comply and obey. There are always those authority figures

                        and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've

                        become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn

                        that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).

                        Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more

                        often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence

                        and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply

                        losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what

                        turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that

                        one has been a Seeker all along!



                        Prometheus



                        Jonathan wrote:



                        Etznab and Mishmisha,



                        I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through

                        yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar

                        was a fraud.



                        As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another

                        emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't

                        sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was

                        based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.



                        Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is

                        another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in

                        something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't

                        recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through

                        regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things

                        and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                      • jonathanjohns96
                        All, Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin Gross book Your Right To Know (copyright 1979) there are four ink line drawings of Eck masters:
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          All,

                          Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin Gross' book "Your Right To Know"(copyright 1979) there are four ink line drawings of Eck masters: Fubbi Quantz, Gopal Das, Lai Tsi, and Rebazar Tarzs [sic]. They pretty much look the way they "should" look. I would say the quality of the drawings is very high. On page ii it states "Ink sketches by Helen Baird." I don't know whether these predate Diane Stanleys artwork or not.

                          Jonathan


                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Etznab and All,
                          > It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,
                          > by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar
                          > and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the
                          > images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted
                          > too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's
                          > descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their
                          > pictures.
                          >
                          > In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley
                          > left ECKankar and were recently Touched-Up again.
                          > Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!
                          >
                          > I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated
                          > in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently
                          > HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.
                          > In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.
                          > When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing
                          > a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Etznab wrote:
                          > About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                          > if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                          > old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                          > leaves with them.
                          >
                          > Just wondering.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                          >
                          > Prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello Etznab and All,
                          >
                          > I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                          >
                          > with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                          >
                          > (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                          >
                          > add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                          >
                          > March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                          >
                          > like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                          >
                          > Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                          >
                          > define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                          >
                          > have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                          >
                          > the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                          >
                          > But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                          >
                          > need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                          >
                          > This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                          >
                          > needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                          >
                          > the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                          >
                          > in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                          >
                          > believable!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > etznab wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                          >
                          > for the new Eckankar catalog.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Jonathan and All, Yes, I remember Helen s sketches. I think she was the one that came up with the currently used EK symbol versus the Greek looking
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 4, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Jonathan and All,
                            Yes, I remember Helen's sketches. I think she
                            was the one that came up with the currently
                            used "EK" symbol versus the Greek looking
                            letters. I remember her telling me once that
                            she was in HK's Satsang Class, in Las Vegas,
                            and that Harry was the Arahata.

                            BTW- When compared to the recent pics
                            of Yaubl and Fubbi how do Helen's sketches
                            differ? What changes have been made in their
                            appearances between then and now? Are they
                            turning younger like Benjamin Button? If so,
                            that would be like in the movie!

                            Prometheus



                            Jonathan wrote:
                            All,

                            Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin
                            Gross' book "Your Right To Know"(copyright 1979) there
                            are four ink line drawings of Eck masters: Fubbi Quantz,
                            Gopal Das, Lai Tsi, and Rebazar Tarzs [sic]. They pretty
                            much look the way they "should" look. I would say the
                            quality of the drawings is very high. On page ii it states
                            "Ink sketches by Helen Baird." I don't know whether these
                            predate Diane Stanleys artwork or not.

                            Jonathan


                            prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Etznab and All,
                            > It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,
                            > by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar
                            > and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the
                            > images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted
                            > too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's
                            > descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their
                            > pictures.
                            >
                            > In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley
                            > left ECKankar and were recently Touched-Up again.
                            > Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!
                            >
                            > I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated
                            > in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently
                            > HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.
                            > In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.
                            > When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing
                            > a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Etznab wrote:
                            > About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                            > if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                            > old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                            > leaves with them.
                            >
                            > Just wondering.
                            >
                            > Etznab
                            >
                            >
                            > Prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello Etznab and All,
                            >
                            > I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                            >
                            > with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                            >
                            > (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                            >
                            > add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                            >
                            > March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                            >
                            > like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                            >
                            > Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                            >
                            > define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                            >
                            > have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                            >
                            > the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                            >
                            > But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                            >
                            > need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                            >
                            > This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                            >
                            > needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                            >
                            > the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                            >
                            > in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                            >
                            > believable!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > etznab wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                            >
                            > for the new Eckankar catalog.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Etznab
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Jonathan, That s one book I don t have, but thanks for sharing that. Etznab ... From: jonathanjohns96 To:
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 4, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Jonathan,

                              That's one book I don't have, but thanks
                              for sharing that.

                              Etznab

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 8:57 pm
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Make-Over and Touch-Up of
                              the EK Masters



                              All,



                              Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin Gross' book
                              "Your Right To Know"(copyright 1979) there are four ink line drawings
                              of Eck masters: Fubbi Quantz, Gopal Das, Lai Tsi, and Rebazar Tarzs
                              [sic]. They pretty much look the way they "should" look. I would say
                              the quality of the drawings is very high. On page ii it states "Ink
                              sketches by Helen Baird." I don't know whether these predate Diane
                              Stanleys artwork or not.



                              Jonathan



                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                              >

                              > Hello Etznab and All,

                              > It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,

                              > by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar

                              > and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the

                              > images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted

                              > too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's

                              > descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their

                              > pictures.

                              >

                              > In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley

                              > left ECKankar and20were recently Touched-Up again.

                              > Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!

                              >

                              > I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated

                              > in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently

                              > HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.

                              > In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.

                              > When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing

                              > a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!

                              >

                              > Prometheus

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > Etznab wrote:

                              > About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering

                              > if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If

                              > old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art

                              > leaves with them.

                              >

                              > Just wondering.

                              >

                              > Etznab

                              >

                              >

                              > Prometheus wrote:

                              >

                              >

                              > Hello Etznab and All,

                              >

                              > I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out

                              >

                              > with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights

                              >

                              > (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and

                              >

                              > add some new terms that he's used recently (in the

                              >

                              > March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)

                              >

                              > like: White Magic;=2
                              0White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray

                              >

                              > Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also

                              >

                              > define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch

                              >

                              > have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since

                              >

                              > the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!

                              >

                              > But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,

                              >

                              > need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!

                              >

                              > This is just another form of editing where Klemp

                              >

                              > needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances

                              >

                              > the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations

                              >

                              > in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,

                              >

                              > believable!

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > Prometheus

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > etznab wrote:

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover

                              >

                              > for the new Eckankar catalog.

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > Etznab

                              >

                              >

                              >
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