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Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes on us."

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  • mishmisha9
    Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will help you keep it sorted out! : ) I can
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 28, 2009
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      Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny
      really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will
      help you keep it sorted out! : )

      I can well imagine the emotions you are going through right now.
      I know I felt pretty stupid about my involvement in the cult. Can't
      believe I fell for it either. However, it has broadened my perceptions
      about religions in general and a lot of other things. I hang around
      here because I do value Truth, and sharing the "eck" experience in
      an open and honest way . . . just might help some others to think
      about theirs as well.

      Mish

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
      <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
      >
      > Mish,
      >
      > I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your name "mishmisha9."
      > Sorry about that. I must have seen the name "mishmash" on another
      > message board and it got stuck in my brain. If you knew how much I've
      > been through today you would know how well my brain and emotions are
      > fried. I really found it very difficult to even make this post, but I
      > wanted to respond to your's and Etznab's posts before too much time
      > went by.
      >
      > I'm going to make a big sign and put it on my wall to remind me of your
      > name because that always seems to be the only way I can straighten
      > something like this out.
      >
      > Jonathan
      >
    • jonathanjohns96
      Etznab and Mishmisha, I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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        Etznab and Mishmisha,

        I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
        yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
        was a fraud.

        As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
        emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
        sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
        based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

        Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
        another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
        something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
        recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
        regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
        and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.

        Jonathan



        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
        <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thank you Etznab and Mishmash for your comments.
        >
        > I wouldn't call this individual at the Eck center a "bad person"
        > because he didn't intend to annoy me. He had no idea he was in the
        > beginning stages of really upsetting me. Plus, I was a member too
        at
        > that time. He probabaly was assuming that I would agree with him.
        >
        > But it shows what 100% faith in a religion and/or spiritual master
        > does to people. I have always used one term that you did Mish, and
        > that is "delusional." These people really are living in their own
        > world. In my previous posts I have called it their "self-created
        > Eckankar World" or I say they are giving their "alternative
        universe
        > explanation" for something.
        >
        > In my last months in Eckankar I found it increasingly difficult to
        > deal with people like this. It almost got so bad that when I went
        to
        > the Eck center I felt like I was in an insane asylum or something.
        I
        > just couldn't handle it anymore.
        >
        > I also don't believe that every member of Eckankar is as severe as
        > this guy. This person believes in Eckankar 100%. I've met quite a
        few
        > others like this, but there are some in Eckankar who are not this
        > serious in their devotion to Eckankar and it's masters.
        >
        > Also, this person started talking about Doug Marman and how "Doug
        > explained everything" as a reaction to something that I said. I
        don't
        > remember exactly what I said, but I don't remember it being a
        severe
        > anti-Eckankar statement either.
        >
        > Dredging up this memory of this interection with this guy caused
        > several emotions to come to the surface today:
        > 1. My astonishment that someone could actually think like this guy
        in
        > his blind support for Eckankar/LEMs.
        > 2. Resentment that this guy thought I was stupid enough to believe
        > and accept his explanation that Paul was just "joking" and that
        this
        > somehow made Paul's lies "OK" or acceptable. After that, I felt the
        > same resentment against Paul Twitchell.
        > 3. Sadness and betrayal that Eckankar had perpetuated all of its
        > various lies on me.
        > 4. Anger at myself for being so stupid to have believed almost all
        of
        > Eckankar's lies.
        >
        > So I have had a busy day going through all of these emotions. But I
        > am feeling better now.
        >
        > Etznab, in another branch of this thread you wrote:
        > "My question is this: If Paul didn't go to Paris,
        > France, then where and when did he meet his
        > first Eck Master in the physical? Sudar Singh?
        > Has Eckankar Inc. ever clarified this question
        > which naturally arises? I don't know that it has."
        >
        > All I can say is that Eckankar doesn't clarify much of anything.
        The
        > main reason is if they do the entire "Eckankar story" will quickly
        > unravel. I believe Ford Johnson mentioned this in "Confessions."
        >
        > Also, just a general comment, I have no idea whether Doug Marman
        said
        > that Paul's story of Paris, France versus Paris, Kentucky was a
        joke
        > perpetuated by Paul. It's possible that this was this guy's
        > interpretation of what Doug said. Too bad we don't have an "expert"
        > on Doug's book. At this point in time I don't think I would have
        the
        > patience to read it.
        >
        > Jonathan
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
        > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Jonathan
        > >
        > > I really like that you shared this experience with us.
        > > I've wondered why eckists when learning the "truth"
        > > still stand by the teachings and the l.e.m. . . . I've
        > > thought about this a lot since reading your post
        > > yesterday. I feel really sad because it clearly points
        > > to the fact that eckists are delusional and follow the
        > > eck teachings and its master blindly. When people do
        > > that sort of thing, to put total faith and trust into
        > > something or someone, it can be so very dangerous--
        > > dangerous not to use one's head in other words. Laughing
        > > it off is just plain crazy! I wonder how many of these eckists
        > > today who are laughing and "joking" along with PT and
        > > Doug Marman ever met or knew PT in the real? It seems
        > > really odd to put one's faith with someone who has been
        > > long dead and basically obscure but for the few who have
        > > found eckankar. And Doug Marman? Well, I don't think
        > > much of a man who continues to put spins around the truth
        > > to continue the lies . . . and of course, Harold Klemp is
        > > in my opinion a bigger fraud and liar than PT. He knows
        > > the truth, but prefers to have title and money at the expense
        > > of his eck followers . . .
        > >
        > > Etznab, loved your posts too! You said it very well in regards
        > > to what else are lies--the eck masters, meeting Sudar, etc. and
        > > also pointing out where the responsibility of truth lies!
        > >
        > > Great posts! Thank you both!
        > >
        > > Mish
        > >
        > > --- In
        > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
        > > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > All,
        > > >
        > > > I made this original post before I went to bed, but now that it
        > is
        > > > morning I thought that I would explain my view of this
        situation
        > a
        > > > little bit more clearly.
        > > >
        > > > As this guy was saying this to me I was thinking to
        myself "Wow,
        > this
        > > > guy is heartless." I found his words to be very disturbing. It
        > wasn't
        > > > until I was driving home and started to really think about it
        > that I
        > > > started to get angry.
        > > >
        > > > But this situation is just one more example of how I was
        starting
        > to
        > > > wake up as to what was really going on in Eckankar. How Eckists
        > will
        > > > go to any lenghth to exonerate Paul Twitchell from being a liar.
        > > >
        > > > Jonathan
        > > >
        > > > --- In
        > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
        > > > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > All,
        > > > >
        > > > > I'm going to vent a little bit. I'm going to tell a short
        story
        > > > about
        > > > > something that happened at the local Eck center.
        > > > >
        > > > > In my last year in Eckankar I was at the Eck center. I was in
        a
        > > > > person-to-person talk with a guy there about Doug Marman's
        > book. I
        > > > > wasn't very familiar with the book then and I am still not
        very
        > > > > familiar with the book.
        > > > >
        > > > > I'm not sure what prompted this person's words, but he
        > mentioned
        > > > that
        > > > > Doug spoke about the fact that debunkers of Eckankar have
        been
        > > > > criticising Paul and saying that Twitchell's sister was never
        > in
        > > > > Paris, France. In other words, he was saying that the
        debunkers
        > > > were
        > > > > saying that Paul lied.
        > > > >
        > > > > And then this guy said that Doug pointed out that Paul's
        sister
        > was
        > > > > actually at art school in Paris, Kentucky, not Paris, France.
        > and
        > > > > that Paul had simply played a joke on all of us. And that
        this
        > fact
        > > > > somehow made everthing OK. This guy then went into uproarous
        > > > laughter
        > > > > saying "Isn't that funny?" Then he laughed some more.
        > > > >
        > > > > I may have cracked a small smile just to be polite and go
        along
        > > > with
        > > > > him. But as I was driving home and thinking about this I
        simply
        > got
        > > > > more and more angry. I even said directly to Paul "No, Paul,
        I
        > > > don't
        > > > > think it's funny. You lied to us. Doesn't that mean anything
        to
        > > > you?"
        > > > >
        > > > > So my point is, this person (Paul Twitchell) writes an
        > > > autobiography,
        > > > > misleading everybody to think his sister was in art school in
        > > > Paris,
        > > > > France, and then when we members of Eckankar find out the
        truth
        > we
        > > > > are supposed to just think that it is funny? Just laugh it
        off?
        > It
        > > > > really shows how sick these Eckists really are and how sick
        > Paul
        > > > > Twitchell really was.
        > > > >
        > > > > Jonathan
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • jonathanjohns96
        Mishmisha, Thanks for your understanding. I will remember that mishmisha is apricot in Arabic. I d rather forget about my goofup, but I think mishmash was
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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          Mishmisha,

          Thanks for your understanding. I will remember that "mishmisha" is
          apricot in Arabic.

          I'd rather forget about my goofup, but I think mishmash was
          describing my state of mind and emotions yesterday as I was healing
          all of this Eckankar-induced trauma.

          Also, as soon as I realized my mistake on that post I was saying to
          myself "How could I have been so stupid! "How could I have been so
          stupid!" which was exactly how I felt when I found out about the lies
          in Eckankar. So that mistake on your name was really another healing
          for me. It shows how spirit continues to work with me even after
          leaving Eckankar.

          Jonathan


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
          >
          > Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny
          > really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will
          > help you keep it sorted out! : )
          >
          > I can well imagine the emotions you are going through right now.
          > I know I felt pretty stupid about my involvement in the cult. Can't
          > believe I fell for it either. However, it has broadened my
          perceptions
          > about religions in general and a lot of other things. I hang around
          > here because I do value Truth, and sharing the "eck" experience in
          > an open and honest way . . . just might help some others to think
          > about theirs as well.
          >
          > Mish
          >
          > --- In
          EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
          > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Mish,
          > >
          > > I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your
          name "mishmisha9."
          > > Sorry about that. I must have seen the name "mishmash" on another
          > > message board and it got stuck in my brain. If you knew how much
          I've
          > > been through today you would know how well my brain and emotions
          are
          > > fried. I really found it very difficult to even make this post,
          but I
          > > wanted to respond to your's and Etznab's posts before too much
          time
          > > went by.
          > >
          > > I'm going to make a big sign and put it on my wall to remind me
          of your
          > > name because that always seems to be the only way I can
          straighten
          > > something like this out.
          > >
          > > Jonathan
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most ECKists what to admit, or to examine more
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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            Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
            versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
            ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
            EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
            laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
            according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
            went to India.

            Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
            makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
            was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
            Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
            a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
            That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
            joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
            around mid-1971.

            The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
            and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
            the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
            of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
            EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
            Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
            even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
            the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
            it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
            who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
            the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
            on an individual and private basis. They never have and
            never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
            a "joke!"

            I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
            seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
            protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
            The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
            inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
            comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
            and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
            become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
            that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
            Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
            often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
            and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
            losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
            turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
            one has been a Seeker all along!

            Prometheus









            Jonathan wrote:

            Etznab and Mishmisha,

            I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
            yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
            was a fraud.

            As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
            emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
            sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
            based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

            Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
            another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
            something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
            recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
            regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
            and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Jonathan and All, It s true that there are many longtime H.I. chelas that don t really care about the EK RESA hierarchy and the Guidelines. I ve known
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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              Hello Jonathan and All,
              It's true that there are many longtime H.I. chelas
              that don't really care about the EK RESA hierarchy
              and the "Guidelines." I've known some 7ths who've
              acted very passive/aggressive toward this structure
              of doing business.

              As to PT's Paris (France/Kentucky) and India visits to
              meet Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs...it didn't happen!
              Klemp didn't even see his mistake with the info (dates)
              he gave on ECKankar.org with Twitchell's timeline.

              HK states (on the copyright page of the Combined Shariyats)
              that PT was born in 1908. HK, also, states that Twitch,
              at 27 years old *(1935), was "exaggerating" and "twisting
              facts" to get into "Who's Who in Kentucky." Klemp states
              that Twitchell had never traveled far from home although
              he tried to make it seem he had in order to get into this
              Who's Who publication for his own self-promotion. I guess
              that this was another Joke/Lie from that "rascal." Later,
              in this article on Twitchell, Klemp states that in *1935
              that Twitchell met Sudar Singh on his FIRST visit to India
              and that on his SECOND visit, in 1952, PT met Rebazar.
              Note the two 1935 dates that Klemp overlooked!

              It's rather ironic that Klemp did his own self-promotion
              by getting into "The International Who's Who of Intellectuals."
              And yet Klemp, as well as, his chelas don't see his own huge
              ego needs, or that he too is a liar and jokester like Twitch!
              However, the biggest joke is on those 8ths and 9ths! They
              will never see the Light because they will never let go of
              those coveted higher initiations! That's another irony...
              the desire to have that next initiation and the attachment
              to being "high" on the pedestal, and in the EK chicken pecking
              order!

              Prometheus


              Jonathan wrote:
              Thank you Etznab and Mish for your comments.

              [snip]
              I also don't believe that every member of Eckankar
              is as severe as this guy. This person believes in Eckankar
              100%. I've met quite a few others like this, but there
              are some in Eckankar who are not this serious in their
              devotion to Eckankar and it's masters.

              [snip]
              Etznab, in another branch of this thread you wrote:
              "My question is this: If Paul didn't go to Paris,
              France, then where and when did he meet his
              first Eck Master in the physical? Sudar Singh?
              Has Eckankar Inc. ever clarified this question
              which naturally arises? I don't know that it has."
            • etznab@aol.com
              Jonathan, Just do what I do and use the shortened form, Mish. If I tried to spell out the long version I d probably have made Mishmash, too :) Thanks for the
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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                Jonathan,

                Just do what I do and use the shortened form, Mish.
                If I tried to spell out the long version I'd probably have
                made Mishmash, too :)

                Thanks for the humor you two! I get a kick out of
                some of the funny things I read in groups at times.

                Etznab


                -----Original Message-----
                From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 8:35 am
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes
                on us."






                Mishmisha,

                Thanks for your understanding. I will remember that "mishmisha" is
                apricot in Arabic.

                I'd rather forget about my goofup, but I think mishmash was
                describing my state of mind and emotions yesterday as I was healing
                all of this Eckankar-induced trauma.

                Also, as soon as I realized my mistake on that post I was saying to
                myself "How could I have been so stupid! "How could I have been so
                stupid!" which was exactly how I felt when I found out about the lies
                in Eckankar. So that mistake on your name was really another healing
                for me. It shows how spirit continues to work with me even after
                leaving Eckankar.

                Jonathan

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                >
                > Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny
                > really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will
                > help you keep it sorted out! : )
                >
                > I can well imagine the emotions you are going through right now.
                > I know I felt pretty stupid about my involvement in the cult. Can't
                > believe I fell for it either. However, it has broadened my
                perceptions
                > about religions in general and a lot of other things. I hang around
                > here because I do value Truth, and sharing the "eck" experience in
                > an open and honest way . . . just might help some others to think
                > about theirs as well.
                >
                > Mish
                >
                > --- In
                EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
                > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Mish,
                > >
                > > I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your
                name "mishmisha9."
                > > Sorry about that. I must have seen the name "mishmash" on another
                > > message board and it got stuck in my brain. If you knew how much
                I've
                > > been through today you would know how well my brain and emotions
                are
                > > fried. I really found it very difficult to even make this post,
                but I
                > > wanted to respond to your's and Etznab's posts before too much
                time
                > > went by.
                > >
                > > I'm going to make a big sign and put it on my wall to remind me
                of your
                > > name because that always seems to be the only way I can
                straighten
                > > something like this out.
                > >
                > > Jonathan
                > >
                >
              • etznab@aol.com
                I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover for the new Eckankar catalog. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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                  I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                  for the new Eckankar catalog.

                  Etznab


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 9:47 am
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Seekers versus Followers






                  Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
                  versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
                  ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
                  EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
                  laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
                  according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
                  went to India.

                  Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
                  makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
                  was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
                  Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
                  a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
                  That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
                  joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
                  around mid-1971.

                  The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
                  and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
                  the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
                  of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
                  EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
                  Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
                  even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
                  the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
                  it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
                  who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
                  the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
                  on an individual and private basis. They never have and
                  never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
                  a "joke!"

                  I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
                  seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
                  protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
                  The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
                  inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
                  comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
                  and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
                  become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
                  that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
                  Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
                  often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
                  and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
                  losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
                  turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
                  one has been a Seeker all along!

                  Prometheus


                  Jonathan wrote:

                  Etznab and Mishmisha,

                  I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
                  yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
                  was a fraud.

                  As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
                  emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
                  sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
                  based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

                  Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
                  another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
                  something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
                  recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
                  regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
                  and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Etznab and All, I m thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON. HK ll want to clean-up the mistakes and
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Etznab and All,
                    I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                    with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.

                    HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                    (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                    add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                    March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                    like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                    Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.

                    Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                    define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                    have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                    the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!

                    And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                    But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                    need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                    This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                    needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                    the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                    in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                    believable!

                    Prometheus



                    etznab wrote:

                    I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                    for the new Eckankar catalog.

                    Etznab


                    Prometheus wrote:

                    Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
                    versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
                    ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
                    EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
                    laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
                    according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
                    went to India.

                    Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
                    makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
                    was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
                    Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
                    a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
                    That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
                    joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
                    around mid-1971.

                    The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
                    and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
                    the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
                    of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
                    EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
                    Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
                    even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
                    the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
                    it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
                    who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
                    the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
                    on an individual and private basis. They never have and
                    never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
                    a "joke!"

                    I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
                    seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
                    protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
                    The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
                    inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
                    comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
                    and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
                    become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
                    that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
                    Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
                    often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
                    and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
                    losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
                    turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
                    one has been a Seeker all along!

                    Prometheus


                    Jonathan wrote:

                    Etznab and Mishmisha,

                    I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
                    yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
                    was a fraud.

                    As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
                    emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
                    sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
                    based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

                    Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
                    another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
                    something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
                    recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
                    regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
                    and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Jonathan and All, Yes, the emotional upset and the mental anguish of discovering that one s religion was a big lie, and a con, is disappointing and
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Jonathan and All,
                      Yes, the emotional upset and the mental anguish
                      of discovering that one's religion was a big lie, and
                      a con, is disappointing and hurtful. One places their
                      trust in the words of authority figures who are seen
                      as more "spiritually advanced," and in one's own inner
                      experiences. Then, when the follower/seeker opens
                      their mind to other possibilities and questions the
                      contradictions they begin to "see" the Truth. The trust
                      in the imagined worlds they have helped to create
                      begins to fracture and is eventually shattered. Thus,
                      it now becomes difficult to hang onto any real truths.

                      One has to ask, What is Truth? Truth is God! And It
                      is our own personal and private relationship Without
                      the need for someone else to intervene or interpret
                      these revelations/experiences of Truth for us.

                      On Discovering the Truth About ECKankar:

                      There is a danger of developing a disbelief in all things!
                      One must Not Lose their Sense of Wonder, although,
                      one's "innocence" will certainly be affected. However,
                      one can still keep an Open Mind and see the Glass as
                      Half-Full. Thus, that Loss of Innocence can be seen as
                      a good thing and as "spiritual maturity." One just needs
                      to "Keep the Faith in One's Self" and in ALL THAT IS,
                      SPIRIT, the FORCE, i.e. SPIRIT, TRUTH, or whatever we
                      call IT.

                      Religion is, of course, a fraud. It's a Group Belief with
                      a Leader that is placed far above his followers and High
                      upon a pedestal (M/LEM). And, there are always "carrots"
                      that are "dangled" in front of these followers to keep them
                      in line, under control, and desiring more. More rewards
                      are promised on the "inner" invisible planes of heaven
                      and for the next lifetime for Soul (after one's physical
                      death of course). the negatives in life are explained away
                      as tests and karma while the positives are seen as coming
                      from the blessings and intervention of the religious leader.

                      Thus, ECKists can only imagine (as the mind naturally
                      does) anything that makes them happy and that alleviates
                      their natural fears. Then, when this religious delusion
                      is shattered, with Reality and Truth, one can become
                      disheartened with deception via another religion that
                      has become a business. True, some religious cons have
                      changed and matured over the years, but all are meant
                      to give crumbs of hope to certain like-minded groups
                      of individuals. Religions, and their leaders, make money
                      and have power which is used to control and manipulate
                      the followers.

                      The journey, toward the goal, requires one to develop
                      their own private "religion."

                      This is what Twitchell's "Cliff-Hanger" started out
                      to be until Gail encouraged the liar Twit to "share
                      it" and "Sell it" to others! Perhaps Twit rationalized
                      as Klemp has. This "ECKankar" belief was helping
                      those who had rejected the lies and myth of the
                      Orthodox (mostly Christian) Religions of their youth.

                      See, if religion can remove the fear of death and
                      the fear of the unknown and can give the mind peace
                      and reassurance through Belief and Faith (along with
                      high principles to live by) via the use of the imagination
                      then one is doing good for mankind! This is how Klemp
                      rationalizes his lies. But, look at the harm he is doing
                      with his threats, and to those who are being mislead
                      and don't need his religion any longer. HK's threats
                      no longer make him a "benevolent dictator" as he likes
                      to view himself.

                      Klemp sees himself as doing a benefit to Mankind
                      (as a KAL agent) by sorting the wheat from the chaff.

                      In others words, the ECKankar religion can be seen
                      as a "test" for Soul (all religions are a test for Soul).
                      Those Souls who are weaker and in need of more time
                      and experience (to "cook"), in order to drop their egos
                      and desires will need more EK initiations, status, and
                      thus, more time to mature. These long-time ECKists
                      need much more time and experience in the religion
                      before discovering their TRUE nature, Self-confidence,
                      individuality and Mastership, and their Oneness with Spirit.

                      I admire David Lane and Ford Johnson for their tenacity
                      and dedication to uncovering the lies and deceit of ECKankar.

                      These two people (Lane and Johnson) helped me and other
                      EK Higher Initiates with 25 plus years to pass our "test" and
                      "wake-up" in order to see the Truth and leave EK. Even those
                      35 plus year 7th Initiates who had finally awakened and left
                      ECKankar were brave enough and ego-free enough to leave.
                      I will say that I just wasn't as strong or mature to let go of
                      religion until I had years of accumulating insight and experience
                      via the ECKankar experience and Klemp's fraud.

                      Of course, there's another perspective that there was No "KAL"
                      or "test" because the belief in the KAL (Devil, Satan) is just another
                      Myth of religion.

                      Many have remained in ECKankar because of family
                      and friend connections (attachments) and, of course,
                      due to Ego!

                      However, Twitch, in his "Shariyat Book Two, Ch 12"
                      gives 7ths a hint, and a choice, as to what they can
                      now, finally, do. "He now has the right to choose
                      whether he will pursue the rest of the way on the
                      path of Eckankar."

                      However, for those 7ths who still have some weakness
                      (fears) with attachments to strong egos and who haven't
                      realized that it was a KAL "test" PT states, "There are five
                      more initiations for him to take before entering the circle
                      of the Adepts.."

                      Thus, (religion) ECKankar is not just Twitchell's joke,
                      it is also KAL's! Sometimes old sayings have some
                      truth in them... "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!"
                      And, "Keep the Faith," but in your own SELF!

                      Prometheus


                      Jonathan wrote:

                      Etznab and Mishmisha,

                      I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that
                      I went through yesterday. They both have to do with
                      when I discovered that Eckankar was a fraud.

                      As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me
                      that another emotion that came up yesterday was
                      "disappointment." That doesn't sound like a severe
                      emotion for finding out that your religion was based
                      on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday
                      too.

                      Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence,"
                      but that is another emotion that commonly comes up
                      when someone believes in something and then the rug
                      is pulled out from under them. I don't recall whether
                      "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
                      regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some
                      other things and that can be a very overpowering emotion
                      to go through.


                      [Klemp - Mr. Obvious/Oblivious]

                      prometheus wrote:

                      Hello Etznab and All,
                      I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                      with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.

                      HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                      (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                      add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                      March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                      like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                      Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.

                      Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                      define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                      have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                      the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!

                      And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                      But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                      need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                      This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                      needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                      the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                      in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                      believable!

                      Prometheus



                      etznab wrote:

                      I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                      for the new Eckankar catalog.

                      Etznab


                      [Followers versus Seekers]

                      Prometheus wrote:

                      Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
                      versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
                      ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
                      EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
                      laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
                      according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
                      went to India.

                      Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
                      makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
                      was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
                      Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
                      a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
                      That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
                      joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
                      around mid-1971.

                      The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
                      and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
                      the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
                      of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
                      EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
                      Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
                      even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
                      the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
                      it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
                      who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
                      the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
                      on an individual and private basis. They never have and
                      never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
                      a "joke!"

                      I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
                      seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
                      protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
                      The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
                      inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
                      comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
                      and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
                      become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
                      that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
                      Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
                      often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
                      and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
                      losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
                      turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
                      one has been a Seeker all along!

                      Prometheus
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art leaves with them. Just
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                        if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                        old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                        leaves with them.

                        Just wondering.

                        Etznab

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 12:01 pm
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp - Mr. Obvious/Oblivious



                        Hello Etznab and All,

                        I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out

                        with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.



                        HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights

                        (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and

                        add some new terms that he's used recently (in the

                        March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)

                        like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray

                        Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.



                        Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also

                        define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch

                        have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since

                        the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!



                        And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!

                        But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,

                        need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!

                        This is just another form of editing where Klemp

                        needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances

                        the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imagin
                        ations

                        in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,

                        believable!



                        Prometheus



                        etznab wrote:



                        I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover

                        for the new Eckankar catalog.



                        Etznab



                        Prometheus wrote:



                        Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky

                        versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most

                        ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If

                        EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy

                        laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,

                        according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then

                        went to India.



                        Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only

                        makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there

                        was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar

                        Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told

                        a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.

                        That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,

                        joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"

                        around mid-1971.



                        The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists

                        and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while

                        the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker

                        of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those

                        EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious

                        Fo
                        llowers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't

                        even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in

                        the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't

                        it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,

                        who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least

                        the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"

                        on an individual and private basis. They never have and

                        never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all

                        a "joke!"



                        I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or

                        seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and

                        protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.

                        The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are

                        inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to

                        comply and obey. There are always those authority figures

                        and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've

                        become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn

                        that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).

                        Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more

                        often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence

                        and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply

                        losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what

                        turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that

                        one has been a Seeker all a
                        long!



                        Prometheus



                        Jonathan wrote:



                        Etznab and Mishmisha,



                        I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through

                        yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar

                        was a fraud.



                        As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another

                        emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't

                        sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was

                        based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.



                        Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is

                        another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in

                        something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't

                        recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through

                        regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things

                        and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Etznab and All, It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters, by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar and, thus, still belong to ECKankar.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Etznab and All,
                          It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,
                          by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar
                          and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the
                          images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted
                          too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's
                          descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their
                          pictures.

                          In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley
                          left ECKankar and were recently Touched-Up again.
                          Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!

                          I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated
                          in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently
                          HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.
                          In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.
                          When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing
                          a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!

                          Prometheus



                          Etznab wrote:
                          About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                          if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                          old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                          leaves with them.

                          Just wondering.

                          Etznab


                          Prometheus wrote:


                          Hello Etznab and All,

                          I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out

                          with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.



                          HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights

                          (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and

                          add some new terms that he's used recently (in the

                          March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)

                          like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray

                          Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.



                          Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also

                          define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch

                          have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since

                          the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!



                          And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!

                          But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,

                          need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!

                          This is just another form of editing where Klemp

                          needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances

                          the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations

                          in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,

                          believable!



                          Prometheus



                          etznab wrote:



                          I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover

                          for the new Eckankar catalog.



                          Etznab



                          Prometheus wrote:



                          Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky

                          versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most

                          ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If

                          EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy

                          laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,

                          according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then

                          went to India.



                          Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only

                          makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there

                          was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar

                          Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told

                          a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.

                          That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,

                          joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"

                          around mid-1971.



                          The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists

                          and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while

                          the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker

                          of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those

                          EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious

                          Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't

                          even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in

                          the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't

                          it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,

                          who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least

                          the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"

                          on an individual and private basis. They never have and

                          never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all

                          a "joke!"



                          I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or

                          seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and

                          protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.

                          The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are

                          inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to

                          comply and obey. There are always those authority figures

                          and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've

                          become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn

                          that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).

                          Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more

                          often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence

                          and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply

                          losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what

                          turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that

                          one has been a Seeker all along!



                          Prometheus



                          Jonathan wrote:



                          Etznab and Mishmisha,



                          I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through

                          yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar

                          was a fraud.



                          As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another

                          emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't

                          sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was

                          based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.



                          Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is

                          another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in

                          something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't

                          recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through

                          regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things

                          and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                        • jonathanjohns96
                          All, Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin Gross book Your Right To Know (copyright 1979) there are four ink line drawings of Eck masters:
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
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                            All,

                            Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin Gross' book "Your Right To Know"(copyright 1979) there are four ink line drawings of Eck masters: Fubbi Quantz, Gopal Das, Lai Tsi, and Rebazar Tarzs [sic]. They pretty much look the way they "should" look. I would say the quality of the drawings is very high. On page ii it states "Ink sketches by Helen Baird." I don't know whether these predate Diane Stanleys artwork or not.

                            Jonathan


                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Etznab and All,
                            > It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,
                            > by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar
                            > and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the
                            > images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted
                            > too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's
                            > descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their
                            > pictures.
                            >
                            > In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley
                            > left ECKankar and were recently Touched-Up again.
                            > Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!
                            >
                            > I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated
                            > in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently
                            > HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.
                            > In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.
                            > When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing
                            > a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Etznab wrote:
                            > About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                            > if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                            > old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                            > leaves with them.
                            >
                            > Just wondering.
                            >
                            > Etznab
                            >
                            >
                            > Prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello Etznab and All,
                            >
                            > I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                            >
                            > with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                            >
                            > (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                            >
                            > add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                            >
                            > March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                            >
                            > like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                            >
                            > Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                            >
                            > define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                            >
                            > have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                            >
                            > the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                            >
                            > But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                            >
                            > need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                            >
                            > This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                            >
                            > needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                            >
                            > the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                            >
                            > in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                            >
                            > believable!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > etznab wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                            >
                            > for the new Eckankar catalog.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Etznab
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Jonathan and All, Yes, I remember Helen s sketches. I think she was the one that came up with the currently used EK symbol versus the Greek looking
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 4, 2009
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                              Hello Jonathan and All,
                              Yes, I remember Helen's sketches. I think she
                              was the one that came up with the currently
                              used "EK" symbol versus the Greek looking
                              letters. I remember her telling me once that
                              she was in HK's Satsang Class, in Las Vegas,
                              and that Harry was the Arahata.

                              BTW- When compared to the recent pics
                              of Yaubl and Fubbi how do Helen's sketches
                              differ? What changes have been made in their
                              appearances between then and now? Are they
                              turning younger like Benjamin Button? If so,
                              that would be like in the movie!

                              Prometheus



                              Jonathan wrote:
                              All,

                              Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin
                              Gross' book "Your Right To Know"(copyright 1979) there
                              are four ink line drawings of Eck masters: Fubbi Quantz,
                              Gopal Das, Lai Tsi, and Rebazar Tarzs [sic]. They pretty
                              much look the way they "should" look. I would say the
                              quality of the drawings is very high. On page ii it states
                              "Ink sketches by Helen Baird." I don't know whether these
                              predate Diane Stanleys artwork or not.

                              Jonathan


                              prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Etznab and All,
                              > It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,
                              > by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar
                              > and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the
                              > images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted
                              > too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's
                              > descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their
                              > pictures.
                              >
                              > In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley
                              > left ECKankar and were recently Touched-Up again.
                              > Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!
                              >
                              > I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated
                              > in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently
                              > HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.
                              > In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.
                              > When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing
                              > a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Etznab wrote:
                              > About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                              > if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                              > old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                              > leaves with them.
                              >
                              > Just wondering.
                              >
                              > Etznab
                              >
                              >
                              > Prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello Etznab and All,
                              >
                              > I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                              >
                              > with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                              >
                              > (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                              >
                              > add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                              >
                              > March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                              >
                              > like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                              >
                              > Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                              >
                              > define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                              >
                              > have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                              >
                              > the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                              >
                              > But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                              >
                              > need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                              >
                              > This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                              >
                              > needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                              >
                              > the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                              >
                              > in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                              >
                              > believable!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > etznab wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                              >
                              > for the new Eckankar catalog.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Etznab
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              Jonathan, That s one book I don t have, but thanks for sharing that. Etznab ... From: jonathanjohns96 To:
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 4, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Jonathan,

                                That's one book I don't have, but thanks
                                for sharing that.

                                Etznab

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 8:57 pm
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Make-Over and Touch-Up of
                                the EK Masters



                                All,



                                Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin Gross' book
                                "Your Right To Know"(copyright 1979) there are four ink line drawings
                                of Eck masters: Fubbi Quantz, Gopal Das, Lai Tsi, and Rebazar Tarzs
                                [sic]. They pretty much look the way they "should" look. I would say
                                the quality of the drawings is very high. On page ii it states "Ink
                                sketches by Helen Baird." I don't know whether these predate Diane
                                Stanleys artwork or not.



                                Jonathan



                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                >

                                > Hello Etznab and All,

                                > It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,

                                > by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar

                                > and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the

                                > images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted

                                > too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's

                                > descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their

                                > pictures.

                                >

                                > In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley

                                > left ECKankar and20were recently Touched-Up again.

                                > Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!

                                >

                                > I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated

                                > in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently

                                > HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.

                                > In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.

                                > When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing

                                > a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!

                                >

                                > Prometheus

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > Etznab wrote:

                                > About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering

                                > if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If

                                > old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art

                                > leaves with them.

                                >

                                > Just wondering.

                                >

                                > Etznab

                                >

                                >

                                > Prometheus wrote:

                                >

                                >

                                > Hello Etznab and All,

                                >

                                > I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out

                                >

                                > with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights

                                >

                                > (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and

                                >

                                > add some new terms that he's used recently (in the

                                >

                                > March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)

                                >

                                > like: White Magic;=2
                                0White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray

                                >

                                > Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also

                                >

                                > define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch

                                >

                                > have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since

                                >

                                > the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!

                                >

                                > But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,

                                >

                                > need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!

                                >

                                > This is just another form of editing where Klemp

                                >

                                > needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances

                                >

                                > the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations

                                >

                                > in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,

                                >

                                > believable!

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > Prometheus

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > etznab wrote:

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover

                                >

                                > for the new Eckankar catalog.

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > Etznab

                                >

                                >

                                >
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