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"Paul Twitchell played jokes on us."

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  • jonathanjohns96
    All, I m going to vent a little bit. I m going to tell a short story about something that happened at the local Eck center. In my last year in Eckankar I was
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 27, 2009
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      All,

      I'm going to vent a little bit. I'm going to tell a short story about
      something that happened at the local Eck center.

      In my last year in Eckankar I was at the Eck center. I was in a
      person-to-person talk with a guy there about Doug Marman's book. I
      wasn't very familiar with the book then and I am still not very
      familiar with the book.

      I'm not sure what prompted this person's words, but he mentioned that
      Doug spoke about the fact that debunkers of Eckankar have been
      criticising Paul and saying that Twitchell's sister was never in
      Paris, France. In other words, he was saying that the debunkers were
      saying that Paul lied.

      And then this guy said that Doug pointed out that Paul's sister was
      actually at art school in Paris, Kentucky, not Paris, France. and
      that Paul had simply played a joke on all of us. And that this fact
      somehow made everthing OK. This guy then went into uproarous laughter
      saying "Isn't that funny?" Then he laughed some more.

      I may have cracked a small smile just to be polite and go along with
      him. But as I was driving home and thinking about this I simply got
      more and more angry. I even said directly to Paul "No, Paul, I don't
      think it's funny. You lied to us. Doesn't that mean anything to you?"

      So my point is, this person (Paul Twitchell) writes an autobiography,
      misleading everybody to think his sister was in art school in Paris,
      France, and then when we members of Eckankar find out the truth we
      are supposed to just think that it is funny? Just laugh it off? It
      really shows how sick these Eckists really are and how sick Paul
      Twitchell really was.

      Jonathan
    • jonathanjohns96
      All, I made this original post before I went to bed, but now that it is morning I thought that I would explain my view of this situation a little bit more
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 28, 2009
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        All,

        I made this original post before I went to bed, but now that it is
        morning I thought that I would explain my view of this situation a
        little bit more clearly.

        As this guy was saying this to me I was thinking to myself "Wow, this
        guy is heartless." I found his words to be very disturbing. It wasn't
        until I was driving home and started to really think about it that I
        started to get angry.

        But this situation is just one more example of how I was starting to
        wake up as to what was really going on in Eckankar. How Eckists will
        go to any lenghth to exonerate Paul Twitchell from being a liar.

        Jonathan

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
        <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
        >
        > All,
        >
        > I'm going to vent a little bit. I'm going to tell a short story
        about
        > something that happened at the local Eck center.
        >
        > In my last year in Eckankar I was at the Eck center. I was in a
        > person-to-person talk with a guy there about Doug Marman's book. I
        > wasn't very familiar with the book then and I am still not very
        > familiar with the book.
        >
        > I'm not sure what prompted this person's words, but he mentioned
        that
        > Doug spoke about the fact that debunkers of Eckankar have been
        > criticising Paul and saying that Twitchell's sister was never in
        > Paris, France. In other words, he was saying that the debunkers
        were
        > saying that Paul lied.
        >
        > And then this guy said that Doug pointed out that Paul's sister was
        > actually at art school in Paris, Kentucky, not Paris, France. and
        > that Paul had simply played a joke on all of us. And that this fact
        > somehow made everthing OK. This guy then went into uproarous
        laughter
        > saying "Isn't that funny?" Then he laughed some more.
        >
        > I may have cracked a small smile just to be polite and go along
        with
        > him. But as I was driving home and thinking about this I simply got
        > more and more angry. I even said directly to Paul "No, Paul, I
        don't
        > think it's funny. You lied to us. Doesn't that mean anything to
        you?"
        >
        > So my point is, this person (Paul Twitchell) writes an
        autobiography,
        > misleading everybody to think his sister was in art school in
        Paris,
        > France, and then when we members of Eckankar find out the truth we
        > are supposed to just think that it is funny? Just laugh it off? It
        > really shows how sick these Eckists really are and how sick Paul
        > Twitchell really was.
        >
        > Jonathan
        >
      • etznab@aol.com
        Jonathan, For me, it also called into question Paul s reported history of Sudar Singh. I thought it was even more NOT FUNNY if Paul made up Eck Masters and
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 28, 2009
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          Jonathan,

          For me, it also called into question Paul's
          reported history of Sudar Singh. I thought it
          was even more NOT FUNNY if Paul made
          up Eck Masters and history of Eck Masters.
          Paris was where Paul T. said he met Sudar
          Singh.

          I don't think it's funny either. In this case, I
          think it's a form of denial because anybody
          serious about finding the truth would follow
          that information to where it leads. Not laugh
          it off. Especially with people "jumping ship"
          amid the laughter and denial.

          It's been over 40 years. There is enough
          information in possession of Eckankar Inc.
          to research and clarify the truth about what
          was made up and what was not. I suspect.

          You made a good point, IMO. It's really not
          a laughing matter for members of religion to
          discover parts of it were made up. Even that
          people in charge may have known about the
          made up parts all along and left members to
          find out on their own.

          Responsibility for researching and finding
          the truth about a religion's teachings, where
          they came from, what parts are true or false
          with regard to world history belongs with the
          author, IMO. If an author forms a religion and
          it's found, after the author's (founder's) death,
          that he wasn't literally honest about elements
          of the teachings and dogma upon which that
          religion was founded, IMO the responsibility
          defaults to the "living" Master. Isn't it precisely
          one of the re
          asons for having a "living" Master
          instead of a book? or a collection of writings?
          So the latter can be updated and corrected
          by a living person?

          My question is this: If Paul didn't go to Paris,
          France, then where and when did he meet his
          first Eck Master in the physical? Sudar Singh?
          Has Eckankar Inc. ever clarified this question
          which naturally arises? I don't know that it has.

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 7:39 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] "Paul Twitchell played jokes on
          us."



          All,



          I'm going to vent a little bit. I'm going to tell a short story about

          something that happened at the local Eck center.



          In my last year in Eckankar I was at the Eck center. I was in a

          person-to-person talk with a guy there about Doug Marman's book. I

          wasn't very familiar with the book then and I am still not very

          familiar with the book.



          I'm not sure what prompted this person's words, but he mentioned that

          Doug spoke about the fact that debunkers of Eckankar have been

          criticising Paul and saying that Twitchell's sister was never in

          Paris, France. In other words, he was saying that the debunkers were

          saying that Paul lied.



          And then this guy said that Doug pointed out that Paul's sister was

          actually at art
          school in Paris, Kentucky, not Paris, France. and

          that Paul had simply played a joke on all of us. And that this fact

          somehow made everthing OK. This guy then went into uproarous laughter

          saying "Isn't that funny?" Then he laughed some more.



          I may have cracked a small smile just to be polite and go along with

          him. But as I was driving home and thinking about this I simply got

          more and more angry. I even said directly to Paul "No, Paul, I don't

          think it's funny. You lied to us. Doesn't that mean anything to you?"



          So my point is, this person (Paul Twitchell) writes an autobiography,

          misleading everybody to think his sister was in art school in Paris,

          France, and then when we members of Eckankar find out the truth we

          are supposed to just think that it is funny? Just laugh it off? It

          really shows how sick these Eckists really are and how sick Paul

          Twitchell really was.



          Jonathan
        • etznab@aol.com
          But this situation is just one more example of how I was starting to wake up as to what was really going on in Eckankar. How Eckists will go to any lenghth to
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 28, 2009
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            "But this situation is just one more example
            of how I was starting to wake up as to what
            was really going on in Eckankar. How Eckists
            will go to any lenghth to exonerate Paul Twitchell
            from being a liar."

            Jonathan,

            It's not only Paul Twitchell, IMO. It's the org.
            and all of its assets. Including the reputations
            of those who believed literally and taught to
            others what was not true.

            Here is the thing, though. Any "official" change
            to "Eckankar" dogma and history may ultimately
            be up to one person. Like a president who signs
            a bill. The rest of the government, the senators &
            representatives (and all of the people they supp-
            osedly represent) cannot override the president
            without a two-thirds majority. However, religions
            (organized monotheistic religions) have a more
            unique situation, when the leader is supposed to
            be representative of, or the "same as", God.

            "Eckankar" has changed over the years, from a
            company / organization / religion to what it is now
            as a "corporate" sturucture, IMO. The board voting
            powers might not be the same. Harold Klemp may
            have more power now and the position of the living
            Master may have no way to be challenged. So what
            I am saying, basically, is if something doesn't meet
            with approval from the living Master, chances are it's
            not going to become "official" Eckankar policy and
            dogma.

            Unofficially speaking, I would say that everybody
            has their own "Eck
            ankar". Even if they don't have
            the power to influence Eckankar Inc. However, the
            former might not be entirely true, either. This is why
            I think it good for people to put their heads together,
            use all available technologies, explore, research &
            clarify the truth about religious dogma. What parts
            of it were made up (or spun) and what parts of it not.

            I think the truth can set people free, & sometimes
            the denial of the truth is a denial of freedom. Without
            freedom to have the truth from an organized religion,
            I suspect that people will continue to leave. And the
            more they find out that parts of it were made up, or
            false, the more that people will refuse to participate
            in it and / or leave it altogether (provided the organ-
            ization has in its power "the truth" to set them free &
            refuses to make it public).

            Etznab


            -----Original Message-----
            From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 5:30 am
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes
            on us."



            All,



            I made this original post before I went to bed, but now that it is

            morning I thought that I would explain my view of this situation a

            little bit more clearly.



            As this guy was saying this to me I was thinking to myself "Wow, this

            guy is heartless." I found his words to be very disturbing. It wasn't

            until I
            was driving home and started to really think about it that I

            started to get angry.



            But this situation is just one more example of how I was starting to

            wake up as to what was really going on in Eckankar. How Eckists will

            go to any lenghth to exonerate Paul Twitchell from being a liar.



            Jonathan



            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"

            <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:

            >

            > All,

            >

            > I'm going to vent a little bit. I'm going to tell a short story

            about

            > something that happened at the local Eck center.

            >

            > In my last year in Eckankar I was at the Eck center. I was in a

            > person-to-person talk with a guy there about Doug Marman's book. I

            > wasn't very familiar with the book then and I am still not very

            > familiar with the book.

            >

            > I'm not sure what prompted this person's words, but he mentioned

            that

            > Doug spoke about the fact that debunkers of Eckankar have been

            > criticising Paul and saying that Twitchell's sister was never in

            > Paris, France. In other words, he was saying that the debunkers

            were

            > saying that Paul lied.

            >

            > And then this guy said that Doug pointed out that Paul's sister
            was

            > actually at art school in Paris, Kentucky, not Paris, France. and

            > that Paul had s
            imply played a joke on all of us. And that this
            fact

            > somehow made everthing OK. This guy then went into uproarous

            laughter

            > saying "Isn't that funny?" Then he laughed some more.

            >

            > I may have cracked a small smile just to be polite and go along

            with

            > him. But as I was driving home and thinking about this I simply
            got

            > more and more angry. I even said directly to Paul "No, Paul, I

            don't

            > think it's funny. You lied to us. Doesn't that mean anything to

            you?"

            >

            > So my point is, this person (Paul Twitchell) writes an

            autobiography,

            > misleading everybody to think his sister was in art school in

            Paris,

            > France, and then when we members of Eckankar find out the truth we

            > are supposed to just think that it is funny? Just laugh it off? It

            > really shows how sick these Eckists really are and how sick Paul

            > Twitchell really was.

            >

            > Jonathan

            >
          • mishmisha9
            Jonathan I really like that you shared this experience with us. I ve wondered why eckists when learning the truth still stand by the teachings and the l.e.m.
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 28, 2009
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              Jonathan

              I really like that you shared this experience with us.
              I've wondered why eckists when learning the "truth"
              still stand by the teachings and the l.e.m. . . . I've
              thought about this a lot since reading your post
              yesterday. I feel really sad because it clearly points
              to the fact that eckists are delusional and follow the
              eck teachings and its master blindly. When people do
              that sort of thing, to put total faith and trust into
              something or someone, it can be so very dangerous--
              dangerous not to use one's head in other words. Laughing
              it off is just plain crazy! I wonder how many of these eckists
              today who are laughing and "joking" along with PT and
              Doug Marman ever met or knew PT in the real? It seems
              really odd to put one's faith with someone who has been
              long dead and basically obscure but for the few who have
              found eckankar. And Doug Marman? Well, I don't think
              much of a man who continues to put spins around the truth
              to continue the lies . . . and of course, Harold Klemp is
              in my opinion a bigger fraud and liar than PT. He knows
              the truth, but prefers to have title and money at the expense
              of his eck followers . . .

              Etznab, loved your posts too! You said it very well in regards
              to what else are lies--the eck masters, meeting Sudar, etc. and
              also pointing out where the responsibility of truth lies!

              Great posts! Thank you both!

              Mish

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
              <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
              >
              > All,
              >
              > I made this original post before I went to bed, but now that it is
              > morning I thought that I would explain my view of this situation a
              > little bit more clearly.
              >
              > As this guy was saying this to me I was thinking to myself "Wow, this
              > guy is heartless." I found his words to be very disturbing. It wasn't
              > until I was driving home and started to really think about it that I
              > started to get angry.
              >
              > But this situation is just one more example of how I was starting to
              > wake up as to what was really going on in Eckankar. How Eckists will
              > go to any lenghth to exonerate Paul Twitchell from being a liar.
              >
              > Jonathan
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
              > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
              > >
              > > All,
              > >
              > > I'm going to vent a little bit. I'm going to tell a short story
              > about
              > > something that happened at the local Eck center.
              > >
              > > In my last year in Eckankar I was at the Eck center. I was in a
              > > person-to-person talk with a guy there about Doug Marman's book. I
              > > wasn't very familiar with the book then and I am still not very
              > > familiar with the book.
              > >
              > > I'm not sure what prompted this person's words, but he mentioned
              > that
              > > Doug spoke about the fact that debunkers of Eckankar have been
              > > criticising Paul and saying that Twitchell's sister was never in
              > > Paris, France. In other words, he was saying that the debunkers
              > were
              > > saying that Paul lied.
              > >
              > > And then this guy said that Doug pointed out that Paul's sister was
              > > actually at art school in Paris, Kentucky, not Paris, France. and
              > > that Paul had simply played a joke on all of us. And that this fact
              > > somehow made everthing OK. This guy then went into uproarous
              > laughter
              > > saying "Isn't that funny?" Then he laughed some more.
              > >
              > > I may have cracked a small smile just to be polite and go along
              > with
              > > him. But as I was driving home and thinking about this I simply got
              > > more and more angry. I even said directly to Paul "No, Paul, I
              > don't
              > > think it's funny. You lied to us. Doesn't that mean anything to
              > you?"
              > >
              > > So my point is, this person (Paul Twitchell) writes an
              > autobiography,
              > > misleading everybody to think his sister was in art school in
              > Paris,
              > > France, and then when we members of Eckankar find out the truth we
              > > are supposed to just think that it is funny? Just laugh it off? It
              > > really shows how sick these Eckists really are and how sick Paul
              > > Twitchell really was.
              > >
              > > Jonathan
              > >
              >
            • jonathanjohns96
              Thank you Etznab and Mishmash for your comments. I wouldn t call this individual at the Eck center a bad person because he didn t intend to annoy me. He had
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 28, 2009
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                Thank you Etznab and Mishmash for your comments.

                I wouldn't call this individual at the Eck center a "bad person"
                because he didn't intend to annoy me. He had no idea he was in the
                beginning stages of really upsetting me. Plus, I was a member too at
                that time. He probabaly was assuming that I would agree with him.

                But it shows what 100% faith in a religion and/or spiritual master
                does to people. I have always used one term that you did Mish, and
                that is "delusional." These people really are living in their own
                world. In my previous posts I have called it their "self-created
                Eckankar World" or I say they are giving their "alternative universe
                explanation" for something.

                In my last months in Eckankar I found it increasingly difficult to
                deal with people like this. It almost got so bad that when I went to
                the Eck center I felt like I was in an insane asylum or something. I
                just couldn't handle it anymore.

                I also don't believe that every member of Eckankar is as severe as
                this guy. This person believes in Eckankar 100%. I've met quite a few
                others like this, but there are some in Eckankar who are not this
                serious in their devotion to Eckankar and it's masters.

                Also, this person started talking about Doug Marman and how "Doug
                explained everything" as a reaction to something that I said. I don't
                remember exactly what I said, but I don't remember it being a severe
                anti-Eckankar statement either.

                Dredging up this memory of this interection with this guy caused
                several emotions to come to the surface today:
                1. My astonishment that someone could actually think like this guy in
                his blind support for Eckankar/LEMs.
                2. Resentment that this guy thought I was stupid enough to believe
                and accept his explanation that Paul was just "joking" and that this
                somehow made Paul's lies "OK" or acceptable. After that, I felt the
                same resentment against Paul Twitchell.
                3. Sadness and betrayal that Eckankar had perpetuated all of its
                various lies on me.
                4. Anger at myself for being so stupid to have believed almost all of
                Eckankar's lies.

                So I have had a busy day going through all of these emotions. But I
                am feeling better now.

                Etznab, in another branch of this thread you wrote:
                "My question is this: If Paul didn't go to Paris,
                France, then where and when did he meet his
                first Eck Master in the physical? Sudar Singh?
                Has Eckankar Inc. ever clarified this question
                which naturally arises? I don't know that it has."

                All I can say is that Eckankar doesn't clarify much of anything. The
                main reason is if they do the entire "Eckankar story" will quickly
                unravel. I believe Ford Johnson mentioned this in "Confessions."

                Also, just a general comment, I have no idea whether Doug Marman said
                that Paul's story of Paris, France versus Paris, Kentucky was a joke
                perpetuated by Paul. It's possible that this was this guy's
                interpretation of what Doug said. Too bad we don't have an "expert"
                on Doug's book. At this point in time I don't think I would have the
                patience to read it.

                Jonathan



                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                >
                > Jonathan
                >
                > I really like that you shared this experience with us.
                > I've wondered why eckists when learning the "truth"
                > still stand by the teachings and the l.e.m. . . . I've
                > thought about this a lot since reading your post
                > yesterday. I feel really sad because it clearly points
                > to the fact that eckists are delusional and follow the
                > eck teachings and its master blindly. When people do
                > that sort of thing, to put total faith and trust into
                > something or someone, it can be so very dangerous--
                > dangerous not to use one's head in other words. Laughing
                > it off is just plain crazy! I wonder how many of these eckists
                > today who are laughing and "joking" along with PT and
                > Doug Marman ever met or knew PT in the real? It seems
                > really odd to put one's faith with someone who has been
                > long dead and basically obscure but for the few who have
                > found eckankar. And Doug Marman? Well, I don't think
                > much of a man who continues to put spins around the truth
                > to continue the lies . . . and of course, Harold Klemp is
                > in my opinion a bigger fraud and liar than PT. He knows
                > the truth, but prefers to have title and money at the expense
                > of his eck followers . . .
                >
                > Etznab, loved your posts too! You said it very well in regards
                > to what else are lies--the eck masters, meeting Sudar, etc. and
                > also pointing out where the responsibility of truth lies!
                >
                > Great posts! Thank you both!
                >
                > Mish
                >
                > --- In
                EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
                > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
                > >
                > > All,
                > >
                > > I made this original post before I went to bed, but now that it
                is
                > > morning I thought that I would explain my view of this situation
                a
                > > little bit more clearly.
                > >
                > > As this guy was saying this to me I was thinking to myself "Wow,
                this
                > > guy is heartless." I found his words to be very disturbing. It
                wasn't
                > > until I was driving home and started to really think about it
                that I
                > > started to get angry.
                > >
                > > But this situation is just one more example of how I was starting
                to
                > > wake up as to what was really going on in Eckankar. How Eckists
                will
                > > go to any lenghth to exonerate Paul Twitchell from being a liar.
                > >
                > > Jonathan
                > >
                > > --- In
                EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
                > > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > All,
                > > >
                > > > I'm going to vent a little bit. I'm going to tell a short story
                > > about
                > > > something that happened at the local Eck center.
                > > >
                > > > In my last year in Eckankar I was at the Eck center. I was in a
                > > > person-to-person talk with a guy there about Doug Marman's
                book. I
                > > > wasn't very familiar with the book then and I am still not very
                > > > familiar with the book.
                > > >
                > > > I'm not sure what prompted this person's words, but he
                mentioned
                > > that
                > > > Doug spoke about the fact that debunkers of Eckankar have been
                > > > criticising Paul and saying that Twitchell's sister was never
                in
                > > > Paris, France. In other words, he was saying that the debunkers
                > > were
                > > > saying that Paul lied.
                > > >
                > > > And then this guy said that Doug pointed out that Paul's sister
                was
                > > > actually at art school in Paris, Kentucky, not Paris, France.
                and
                > > > that Paul had simply played a joke on all of us. And that this
                fact
                > > > somehow made everthing OK. This guy then went into uproarous
                > > laughter
                > > > saying "Isn't that funny?" Then he laughed some more.
                > > >
                > > > I may have cracked a small smile just to be polite and go along
                > > with
                > > > him. But as I was driving home and thinking about this I simply
                got
                > > > more and more angry. I even said directly to Paul "No, Paul, I
                > > don't
                > > > think it's funny. You lied to us. Doesn't that mean anything to
                > > you?"
                > > >
                > > > So my point is, this person (Paul Twitchell) writes an
                > > autobiography,
                > > > misleading everybody to think his sister was in art school in
                > > Paris,
                > > > France, and then when we members of Eckankar find out the truth
                we
                > > > are supposed to just think that it is funny? Just laugh it off?
                It
                > > > really shows how sick these Eckists really are and how sick
                Paul
                > > > Twitchell really was.
                > > >
                > > > Jonathan
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • jonathanjohns96
                Mish, I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your name mishmisha9. Sorry about that. I must have seen the name mishmash on another message board and it
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 28, 2009
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                  Mish,

                  I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your name "mishmisha9."
                  Sorry about that. I must have seen the name "mishmash" on another
                  message board and it got stuck in my brain. If you knew how much I've
                  been through today you would know how well my brain and emotions are
                  fried. I really found it very difficult to even make this post, but I
                  wanted to respond to your's and Etznab's posts before too much time
                  went by.

                  I'm going to make a big sign and put it on my wall to remind me of your
                  name because that always seems to be the only way I can straighten
                  something like this out.

                  Jonathan
                • mishmisha9
                  Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will help you keep it sorted out! : ) I can
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 28, 2009
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                    Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny
                    really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will
                    help you keep it sorted out! : )

                    I can well imagine the emotions you are going through right now.
                    I know I felt pretty stupid about my involvement in the cult. Can't
                    believe I fell for it either. However, it has broadened my perceptions
                    about religions in general and a lot of other things. I hang around
                    here because I do value Truth, and sharing the "eck" experience in
                    an open and honest way . . . just might help some others to think
                    about theirs as well.

                    Mish

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
                    <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Mish,
                    >
                    > I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your name "mishmisha9."
                    > Sorry about that. I must have seen the name "mishmash" on another
                    > message board and it got stuck in my brain. If you knew how much I've
                    > been through today you would know how well my brain and emotions are
                    > fried. I really found it very difficult to even make this post, but I
                    > wanted to respond to your's and Etznab's posts before too much time
                    > went by.
                    >
                    > I'm going to make a big sign and put it on my wall to remind me of your
                    > name because that always seems to be the only way I can straighten
                    > something like this out.
                    >
                    > Jonathan
                    >
                  • jonathanjohns96
                    Etznab and Mishmisha, I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                      Etznab and Mishmisha,

                      I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
                      yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
                      was a fraud.

                      As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
                      emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
                      sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
                      based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

                      Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
                      another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
                      something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
                      recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
                      regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
                      and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.

                      Jonathan



                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
                      <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thank you Etznab and Mishmash for your comments.
                      >
                      > I wouldn't call this individual at the Eck center a "bad person"
                      > because he didn't intend to annoy me. He had no idea he was in the
                      > beginning stages of really upsetting me. Plus, I was a member too
                      at
                      > that time. He probabaly was assuming that I would agree with him.
                      >
                      > But it shows what 100% faith in a religion and/or spiritual master
                      > does to people. I have always used one term that you did Mish, and
                      > that is "delusional." These people really are living in their own
                      > world. In my previous posts I have called it their "self-created
                      > Eckankar World" or I say they are giving their "alternative
                      universe
                      > explanation" for something.
                      >
                      > In my last months in Eckankar I found it increasingly difficult to
                      > deal with people like this. It almost got so bad that when I went
                      to
                      > the Eck center I felt like I was in an insane asylum or something.
                      I
                      > just couldn't handle it anymore.
                      >
                      > I also don't believe that every member of Eckankar is as severe as
                      > this guy. This person believes in Eckankar 100%. I've met quite a
                      few
                      > others like this, but there are some in Eckankar who are not this
                      > serious in their devotion to Eckankar and it's masters.
                      >
                      > Also, this person started talking about Doug Marman and how "Doug
                      > explained everything" as a reaction to something that I said. I
                      don't
                      > remember exactly what I said, but I don't remember it being a
                      severe
                      > anti-Eckankar statement either.
                      >
                      > Dredging up this memory of this interection with this guy caused
                      > several emotions to come to the surface today:
                      > 1. My astonishment that someone could actually think like this guy
                      in
                      > his blind support for Eckankar/LEMs.
                      > 2. Resentment that this guy thought I was stupid enough to believe
                      > and accept his explanation that Paul was just "joking" and that
                      this
                      > somehow made Paul's lies "OK" or acceptable. After that, I felt the
                      > same resentment against Paul Twitchell.
                      > 3. Sadness and betrayal that Eckankar had perpetuated all of its
                      > various lies on me.
                      > 4. Anger at myself for being so stupid to have believed almost all
                      of
                      > Eckankar's lies.
                      >
                      > So I have had a busy day going through all of these emotions. But I
                      > am feeling better now.
                      >
                      > Etznab, in another branch of this thread you wrote:
                      > "My question is this: If Paul didn't go to Paris,
                      > France, then where and when did he meet his
                      > first Eck Master in the physical? Sudar Singh?
                      > Has Eckankar Inc. ever clarified this question
                      > which naturally arises? I don't know that it has."
                      >
                      > All I can say is that Eckankar doesn't clarify much of anything.
                      The
                      > main reason is if they do the entire "Eckankar story" will quickly
                      > unravel. I believe Ford Johnson mentioned this in "Confessions."
                      >
                      > Also, just a general comment, I have no idea whether Doug Marman
                      said
                      > that Paul's story of Paris, France versus Paris, Kentucky was a
                      joke
                      > perpetuated by Paul. It's possible that this was this guy's
                      > interpretation of what Doug said. Too bad we don't have an "expert"
                      > on Doug's book. At this point in time I don't think I would have
                      the
                      > patience to read it.
                      >
                      > Jonathan
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                      > <mishmisha9@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Jonathan
                      > >
                      > > I really like that you shared this experience with us.
                      > > I've wondered why eckists when learning the "truth"
                      > > still stand by the teachings and the l.e.m. . . . I've
                      > > thought about this a lot since reading your post
                      > > yesterday. I feel really sad because it clearly points
                      > > to the fact that eckists are delusional and follow the
                      > > eck teachings and its master blindly. When people do
                      > > that sort of thing, to put total faith and trust into
                      > > something or someone, it can be so very dangerous--
                      > > dangerous not to use one's head in other words. Laughing
                      > > it off is just plain crazy! I wonder how many of these eckists
                      > > today who are laughing and "joking" along with PT and
                      > > Doug Marman ever met or knew PT in the real? It seems
                      > > really odd to put one's faith with someone who has been
                      > > long dead and basically obscure but for the few who have
                      > > found eckankar. And Doug Marman? Well, I don't think
                      > > much of a man who continues to put spins around the truth
                      > > to continue the lies . . . and of course, Harold Klemp is
                      > > in my opinion a bigger fraud and liar than PT. He knows
                      > > the truth, but prefers to have title and money at the expense
                      > > of his eck followers . . .
                      > >
                      > > Etznab, loved your posts too! You said it very well in regards
                      > > to what else are lies--the eck masters, meeting Sudar, etc. and
                      > > also pointing out where the responsibility of truth lies!
                      > >
                      > > Great posts! Thank you both!
                      > >
                      > > Mish
                      > >
                      > > --- In
                      > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
                      > > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > All,
                      > > >
                      > > > I made this original post before I went to bed, but now that it
                      > is
                      > > > morning I thought that I would explain my view of this
                      situation
                      > a
                      > > > little bit more clearly.
                      > > >
                      > > > As this guy was saying this to me I was thinking to
                      myself "Wow,
                      > this
                      > > > guy is heartless." I found his words to be very disturbing. It
                      > wasn't
                      > > > until I was driving home and started to really think about it
                      > that I
                      > > > started to get angry.
                      > > >
                      > > > But this situation is just one more example of how I was
                      starting
                      > to
                      > > > wake up as to what was really going on in Eckankar. How Eckists
                      > will
                      > > > go to any lenghth to exonerate Paul Twitchell from being a liar.
                      > > >
                      > > > Jonathan
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In
                      > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
                      > > > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > All,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I'm going to vent a little bit. I'm going to tell a short
                      story
                      > > > about
                      > > > > something that happened at the local Eck center.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In my last year in Eckankar I was at the Eck center. I was in
                      a
                      > > > > person-to-person talk with a guy there about Doug Marman's
                      > book. I
                      > > > > wasn't very familiar with the book then and I am still not
                      very
                      > > > > familiar with the book.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I'm not sure what prompted this person's words, but he
                      > mentioned
                      > > > that
                      > > > > Doug spoke about the fact that debunkers of Eckankar have
                      been
                      > > > > criticising Paul and saying that Twitchell's sister was never
                      > in
                      > > > > Paris, France. In other words, he was saying that the
                      debunkers
                      > > > were
                      > > > > saying that Paul lied.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > And then this guy said that Doug pointed out that Paul's
                      sister
                      > was
                      > > > > actually at art school in Paris, Kentucky, not Paris, France.
                      > and
                      > > > > that Paul had simply played a joke on all of us. And that
                      this
                      > fact
                      > > > > somehow made everthing OK. This guy then went into uproarous
                      > > > laughter
                      > > > > saying "Isn't that funny?" Then he laughed some more.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I may have cracked a small smile just to be polite and go
                      along
                      > > > with
                      > > > > him. But as I was driving home and thinking about this I
                      simply
                      > got
                      > > > > more and more angry. I even said directly to Paul "No, Paul,
                      I
                      > > > don't
                      > > > > think it's funny. You lied to us. Doesn't that mean anything
                      to
                      > > > you?"
                      > > > >
                      > > > > So my point is, this person (Paul Twitchell) writes an
                      > > > autobiography,
                      > > > > misleading everybody to think his sister was in art school in
                      > > > Paris,
                      > > > > France, and then when we members of Eckankar find out the
                      truth
                      > we
                      > > > > are supposed to just think that it is funny? Just laugh it
                      off?
                      > It
                      > > > > really shows how sick these Eckists really are and how sick
                      > Paul
                      > > > > Twitchell really was.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Jonathan
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • jonathanjohns96
                      Mishmisha, Thanks for your understanding. I will remember that mishmisha is apricot in Arabic. I d rather forget about my goofup, but I think mishmash was
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                        Mishmisha,

                        Thanks for your understanding. I will remember that "mishmisha" is
                        apricot in Arabic.

                        I'd rather forget about my goofup, but I think mishmash was
                        describing my state of mind and emotions yesterday as I was healing
                        all of this Eckankar-induced trauma.

                        Also, as soon as I realized my mistake on that post I was saying to
                        myself "How could I have been so stupid! "How could I have been so
                        stupid!" which was exactly how I felt when I found out about the lies
                        in Eckankar. So that mistake on your name was really another healing
                        for me. It shows how spirit continues to work with me even after
                        leaving Eckankar.

                        Jonathan


                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                        <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny
                        > really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will
                        > help you keep it sorted out! : )
                        >
                        > I can well imagine the emotions you are going through right now.
                        > I know I felt pretty stupid about my involvement in the cult. Can't
                        > believe I fell for it either. However, it has broadened my
                        perceptions
                        > about religions in general and a lot of other things. I hang around
                        > here because I do value Truth, and sharing the "eck" experience in
                        > an open and honest way . . . just might help some others to think
                        > about theirs as well.
                        >
                        > Mish
                        >
                        > --- In
                        EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
                        > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Mish,
                        > >
                        > > I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your
                        name "mishmisha9."
                        > > Sorry about that. I must have seen the name "mishmash" on another
                        > > message board and it got stuck in my brain. If you knew how much
                        I've
                        > > been through today you would know how well my brain and emotions
                        are
                        > > fried. I really found it very difficult to even make this post,
                        but I
                        > > wanted to respond to your's and Etznab's posts before too much
                        time
                        > > went by.
                        > >
                        > > I'm going to make a big sign and put it on my wall to remind me
                        of your
                        > > name because that always seems to be the only way I can
                        straighten
                        > > something like this out.
                        > >
                        > > Jonathan
                        > >
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most ECKists what to admit, or to examine more
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                          Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
                          versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
                          ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
                          EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
                          laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
                          according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
                          went to India.

                          Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
                          makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
                          was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
                          Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
                          a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
                          That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
                          joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
                          around mid-1971.

                          The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
                          and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
                          the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
                          of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
                          EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
                          Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
                          even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
                          the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
                          it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
                          who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
                          the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
                          on an individual and private basis. They never have and
                          never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
                          a "joke!"

                          I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
                          seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
                          protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
                          The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
                          inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
                          comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
                          and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
                          become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
                          that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
                          Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
                          often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
                          and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
                          losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
                          turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
                          one has been a Seeker all along!

                          Prometheus









                          Jonathan wrote:

                          Etznab and Mishmisha,

                          I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
                          yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
                          was a fraud.

                          As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
                          emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
                          sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
                          based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

                          Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
                          another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
                          something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
                          recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
                          regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
                          and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Jonathan and All, It s true that there are many longtime H.I. chelas that don t really care about the EK RESA hierarchy and the Guidelines. I ve known
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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                            Hello Jonathan and All,
                            It's true that there are many longtime H.I. chelas
                            that don't really care about the EK RESA hierarchy
                            and the "Guidelines." I've known some 7ths who've
                            acted very passive/aggressive toward this structure
                            of doing business.

                            As to PT's Paris (France/Kentucky) and India visits to
                            meet Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs...it didn't happen!
                            Klemp didn't even see his mistake with the info (dates)
                            he gave on ECKankar.org with Twitchell's timeline.

                            HK states (on the copyright page of the Combined Shariyats)
                            that PT was born in 1908. HK, also, states that Twitch,
                            at 27 years old *(1935), was "exaggerating" and "twisting
                            facts" to get into "Who's Who in Kentucky." Klemp states
                            that Twitchell had never traveled far from home although
                            he tried to make it seem he had in order to get into this
                            Who's Who publication for his own self-promotion. I guess
                            that this was another Joke/Lie from that "rascal." Later,
                            in this article on Twitchell, Klemp states that in *1935
                            that Twitchell met Sudar Singh on his FIRST visit to India
                            and that on his SECOND visit, in 1952, PT met Rebazar.
                            Note the two 1935 dates that Klemp overlooked!

                            It's rather ironic that Klemp did his own self-promotion
                            by getting into "The International Who's Who of Intellectuals."
                            And yet Klemp, as well as, his chelas don't see his own huge
                            ego needs, or that he too is a liar and jokester like Twitch!
                            However, the biggest joke is on those 8ths and 9ths! They
                            will never see the Light because they will never let go of
                            those coveted higher initiations! That's another irony...
                            the desire to have that next initiation and the attachment
                            to being "high" on the pedestal, and in the EK chicken pecking
                            order!

                            Prometheus


                            Jonathan wrote:
                            Thank you Etznab and Mish for your comments.

                            [snip]
                            I also don't believe that every member of Eckankar
                            is as severe as this guy. This person believes in Eckankar
                            100%. I've met quite a few others like this, but there
                            are some in Eckankar who are not this serious in their
                            devotion to Eckankar and it's masters.

                            [snip]
                            Etznab, in another branch of this thread you wrote:
                            "My question is this: If Paul didn't go to Paris,
                            France, then where and when did he meet his
                            first Eck Master in the physical? Sudar Singh?
                            Has Eckankar Inc. ever clarified this question
                            which naturally arises? I don't know that it has."
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Jonathan, Just do what I do and use the shortened form, Mish. If I tried to spell out the long version I d probably have made Mishmash, too :) Thanks for the
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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                              Jonathan,

                              Just do what I do and use the shortened form, Mish.
                              If I tried to spell out the long version I'd probably have
                              made Mishmash, too :)

                              Thanks for the humor you two! I get a kick out of
                              some of the funny things I read in groups at times.

                              Etznab


                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 8:35 am
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "Paul Twitchell played jokes
                              on us."






                              Mishmisha,

                              Thanks for your understanding. I will remember that "mishmisha" is
                              apricot in Arabic.

                              I'd rather forget about my goofup, but I think mishmash was
                              describing my state of mind and emotions yesterday as I was healing
                              all of this Eckankar-induced trauma.

                              Also, as soon as I realized my mistake on that post I was saying to
                              myself "How could I have been so stupid! "How could I have been so
                              stupid!" which was exactly how I felt when I found out about the lies
                              in Eckankar. So that mistake on your name was really another healing
                              for me. It shows how spirit continues to work with me even after
                              leaving Eckankar.

                              Jonathan

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                              <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Jonathan--no problem about the name mix up. Kind of funny
                              > really, but in Arabic Mishmisha means apricot! Maybe that will
                              > help you keep it sorted out! : )
                              >
                              > I can well imagine the emotions you are going through right now.
                              > I know I felt pretty stupid about my involvement in the cult. Can't
                              > believe I fell for it either. However, it has broadened my
                              perceptions
                              > about religions in general and a lot of other things. I hang around
                              > here because I do value Truth, and sharing the "eck" experience in
                              > an open and honest way . . . just might help some others to think
                              > about theirs as well.
                              >
                              > Mish
                              >
                              > --- In
                              EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
                              > <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Mish,
                              > >
                              > > I just noticed that I thoroughly messed up your
                              name "mishmisha9."
                              > > Sorry about that. I must have seen the name "mishmash" on another
                              > > message board and it got stuck in my brain. If you knew how much
                              I've
                              > > been through today you would know how well my brain and emotions
                              are
                              > > fried. I really found it very difficult to even make this post,
                              but I
                              > > wanted to respond to your's and Etznab's posts before too much
                              time
                              > > went by.
                              > >
                              > > I'm going to make a big sign and put it on my wall to remind me
                              of your
                              > > name because that always seems to be the only way I can
                              straighten
                              > > something like this out.
                              > >
                              > > Jonathan
                              > >
                              >
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover for the new Eckankar catalog. Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                                for the new Eckankar catalog.

                                Etznab


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 9:47 am
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Seekers versus Followers






                                Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
                                versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
                                ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
                                EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
                                laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
                                according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
                                went to India.

                                Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
                                makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
                                was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
                                Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
                                a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
                                That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
                                joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
                                around mid-1971.

                                The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
                                and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
                                the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
                                of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
                                EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
                                Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
                                even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
                                the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
                                it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
                                who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
                                the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
                                on an individual and private basis. They never have and
                                never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
                                a "joke!"

                                I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
                                seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
                                protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
                                The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
                                inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
                                comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
                                and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
                                become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
                                that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
                                Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
                                often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
                                and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
                                losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
                                turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
                                one has been a Seeker all along!

                                Prometheus


                                Jonathan wrote:

                                Etznab and Mishmisha,

                                I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
                                yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
                                was a fraud.

                                As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
                                emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
                                sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
                                based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

                                Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
                                another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
                                something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
                                recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
                                regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
                                and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Etznab and All, I m thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON. HK ll want to clean-up the mistakes and
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello Etznab and All,
                                  I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                                  with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.

                                  HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                                  (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                                  add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                                  March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                                  like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                                  Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.

                                  Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                                  define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                                  have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                                  the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!

                                  And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                                  But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                                  need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                                  This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                                  needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                                  the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                                  in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                                  believable!

                                  Prometheus



                                  etznab wrote:

                                  I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                                  for the new Eckankar catalog.

                                  Etznab


                                  Prometheus wrote:

                                  Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
                                  versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
                                  ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
                                  EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
                                  laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
                                  according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
                                  went to India.

                                  Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
                                  makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
                                  was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
                                  Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
                                  a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
                                  That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
                                  joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
                                  around mid-1971.

                                  The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
                                  and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
                                  the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
                                  of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
                                  EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
                                  Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
                                  even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
                                  the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
                                  it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
                                  who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
                                  the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
                                  on an individual and private basis. They never have and
                                  never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
                                  a "joke!"

                                  I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
                                  seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
                                  protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
                                  The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
                                  inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
                                  comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
                                  and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
                                  become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
                                  that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
                                  Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
                                  often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
                                  and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
                                  losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
                                  turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
                                  one has been a Seeker all along!

                                  Prometheus


                                  Jonathan wrote:

                                  Etznab and Mishmisha,

                                  I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through
                                  yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar
                                  was a fraud.

                                  As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another
                                  emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't
                                  sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was
                                  based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.

                                  Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is
                                  another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in
                                  something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't
                                  recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
                                  regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things
                                  and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello Jonathan and All, Yes, the emotional upset and the mental anguish of discovering that one s religion was a big lie, and a con, is disappointing and
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Jonathan and All,
                                    Yes, the emotional upset and the mental anguish
                                    of discovering that one's religion was a big lie, and
                                    a con, is disappointing and hurtful. One places their
                                    trust in the words of authority figures who are seen
                                    as more "spiritually advanced," and in one's own inner
                                    experiences. Then, when the follower/seeker opens
                                    their mind to other possibilities and questions the
                                    contradictions they begin to "see" the Truth. The trust
                                    in the imagined worlds they have helped to create
                                    begins to fracture and is eventually shattered. Thus,
                                    it now becomes difficult to hang onto any real truths.

                                    One has to ask, What is Truth? Truth is God! And It
                                    is our own personal and private relationship Without
                                    the need for someone else to intervene or interpret
                                    these revelations/experiences of Truth for us.

                                    On Discovering the Truth About ECKankar:

                                    There is a danger of developing a disbelief in all things!
                                    One must Not Lose their Sense of Wonder, although,
                                    one's "innocence" will certainly be affected. However,
                                    one can still keep an Open Mind and see the Glass as
                                    Half-Full. Thus, that Loss of Innocence can be seen as
                                    a good thing and as "spiritual maturity." One just needs
                                    to "Keep the Faith in One's Self" and in ALL THAT IS,
                                    SPIRIT, the FORCE, i.e. SPIRIT, TRUTH, or whatever we
                                    call IT.

                                    Religion is, of course, a fraud. It's a Group Belief with
                                    a Leader that is placed far above his followers and High
                                    upon a pedestal (M/LEM). And, there are always "carrots"
                                    that are "dangled" in front of these followers to keep them
                                    in line, under control, and desiring more. More rewards
                                    are promised on the "inner" invisible planes of heaven
                                    and for the next lifetime for Soul (after one's physical
                                    death of course). the negatives in life are explained away
                                    as tests and karma while the positives are seen as coming
                                    from the blessings and intervention of the religious leader.

                                    Thus, ECKists can only imagine (as the mind naturally
                                    does) anything that makes them happy and that alleviates
                                    their natural fears. Then, when this religious delusion
                                    is shattered, with Reality and Truth, one can become
                                    disheartened with deception via another religion that
                                    has become a business. True, some religious cons have
                                    changed and matured over the years, but all are meant
                                    to give crumbs of hope to certain like-minded groups
                                    of individuals. Religions, and their leaders, make money
                                    and have power which is used to control and manipulate
                                    the followers.

                                    The journey, toward the goal, requires one to develop
                                    their own private "religion."

                                    This is what Twitchell's "Cliff-Hanger" started out
                                    to be until Gail encouraged the liar Twit to "share
                                    it" and "Sell it" to others! Perhaps Twit rationalized
                                    as Klemp has. This "ECKankar" belief was helping
                                    those who had rejected the lies and myth of the
                                    Orthodox (mostly Christian) Religions of their youth.

                                    See, if religion can remove the fear of death and
                                    the fear of the unknown and can give the mind peace
                                    and reassurance through Belief and Faith (along with
                                    high principles to live by) via the use of the imagination
                                    then one is doing good for mankind! This is how Klemp
                                    rationalizes his lies. But, look at the harm he is doing
                                    with his threats, and to those who are being mislead
                                    and don't need his religion any longer. HK's threats
                                    no longer make him a "benevolent dictator" as he likes
                                    to view himself.

                                    Klemp sees himself as doing a benefit to Mankind
                                    (as a KAL agent) by sorting the wheat from the chaff.

                                    In others words, the ECKankar religion can be seen
                                    as a "test" for Soul (all religions are a test for Soul).
                                    Those Souls who are weaker and in need of more time
                                    and experience (to "cook"), in order to drop their egos
                                    and desires will need more EK initiations, status, and
                                    thus, more time to mature. These long-time ECKists
                                    need much more time and experience in the religion
                                    before discovering their TRUE nature, Self-confidence,
                                    individuality and Mastership, and their Oneness with Spirit.

                                    I admire David Lane and Ford Johnson for their tenacity
                                    and dedication to uncovering the lies and deceit of ECKankar.

                                    These two people (Lane and Johnson) helped me and other
                                    EK Higher Initiates with 25 plus years to pass our "test" and
                                    "wake-up" in order to see the Truth and leave EK. Even those
                                    35 plus year 7th Initiates who had finally awakened and left
                                    ECKankar were brave enough and ego-free enough to leave.
                                    I will say that I just wasn't as strong or mature to let go of
                                    religion until I had years of accumulating insight and experience
                                    via the ECKankar experience and Klemp's fraud.

                                    Of course, there's another perspective that there was No "KAL"
                                    or "test" because the belief in the KAL (Devil, Satan) is just another
                                    Myth of religion.

                                    Many have remained in ECKankar because of family
                                    and friend connections (attachments) and, of course,
                                    due to Ego!

                                    However, Twitch, in his "Shariyat Book Two, Ch 12"
                                    gives 7ths a hint, and a choice, as to what they can
                                    now, finally, do. "He now has the right to choose
                                    whether he will pursue the rest of the way on the
                                    path of Eckankar."

                                    However, for those 7ths who still have some weakness
                                    (fears) with attachments to strong egos and who haven't
                                    realized that it was a KAL "test" PT states, "There are five
                                    more initiations for him to take before entering the circle
                                    of the Adepts.."

                                    Thus, (religion) ECKankar is not just Twitchell's joke,
                                    it is also KAL's! Sometimes old sayings have some
                                    truth in them... "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!"
                                    And, "Keep the Faith," but in your own SELF!

                                    Prometheus


                                    Jonathan wrote:

                                    Etznab and Mishmisha,

                                    I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that
                                    I went through yesterday. They both have to do with
                                    when I discovered that Eckankar was a fraud.

                                    As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me
                                    that another emotion that came up yesterday was
                                    "disappointment." That doesn't sound like a severe
                                    emotion for finding out that your religion was based
                                    on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday
                                    too.

                                    Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence,"
                                    but that is another emotion that commonly comes up
                                    when someone believes in something and then the rug
                                    is pulled out from under them. I don't recall whether
                                    "loss of innocence" is something that I went through
                                    regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some
                                    other things and that can be a very overpowering emotion
                                    to go through.


                                    [Klemp - Mr. Obvious/Oblivious]

                                    prometheus wrote:

                                    Hello Etznab and All,
                                    I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                                    with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.

                                    HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                                    (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                                    add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                                    March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                                    like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                                    Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.

                                    Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                                    define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                                    have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                                    the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!

                                    And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                                    But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                                    need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                                    This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                                    needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                                    the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                                    in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                                    believable!

                                    Prometheus



                                    etznab wrote:

                                    I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                                    for the new Eckankar catalog.

                                    Etznab


                                    [Followers versus Seekers]

                                    Prometheus wrote:

                                    Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky
                                    versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most
                                    ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If
                                    EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy
                                    laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,
                                    according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then
                                    went to India.

                                    Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only
                                    makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there
                                    was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar
                                    Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told
                                    a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.
                                    That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,
                                    joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"
                                    around mid-1971.

                                    The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists
                                    and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while
                                    the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker
                                    of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those
                                    EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious
                                    Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't
                                    even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in
                                    the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't
                                    it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,
                                    who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least
                                    the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"
                                    on an individual and private basis. They never have and
                                    never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all
                                    a "joke!"

                                    I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or
                                    seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and
                                    protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.
                                    The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are
                                    inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to
                                    comply and obey. There are always those authority figures
                                    and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've
                                    become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn
                                    that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).
                                    Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more
                                    often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence
                                    and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply
                                    losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what
                                    turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that
                                    one has been a Seeker all along!

                                    Prometheus
                                  • etznab@aol.com
                                    About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art leaves with them. Just
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                                      if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                                      old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                                      leaves with them.

                                      Just wondering.

                                      Etznab

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 12:01 pm
                                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp - Mr. Obvious/Oblivious



                                      Hello Etznab and All,

                                      I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out

                                      with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.



                                      HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights

                                      (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and

                                      add some new terms that he's used recently (in the

                                      March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)

                                      like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray

                                      Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.



                                      Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also

                                      define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch

                                      have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since

                                      the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!



                                      And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!

                                      But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,

                                      need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!

                                      This is just another form of editing where Klemp

                                      needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances

                                      the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imagin
                                      ations

                                      in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,

                                      believable!



                                      Prometheus



                                      etznab wrote:



                                      I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover

                                      for the new Eckankar catalog.



                                      Etznab



                                      Prometheus wrote:



                                      Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky

                                      versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most

                                      ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If

                                      EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy

                                      laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,

                                      according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then

                                      went to India.



                                      Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only

                                      makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there

                                      was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar

                                      Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told

                                      a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.

                                      That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,

                                      joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"

                                      around mid-1971.



                                      The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists

                                      and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while

                                      the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker

                                      of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those

                                      EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious

                                      Fo
                                      llowers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't

                                      even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in

                                      the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't

                                      it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,

                                      who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least

                                      the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"

                                      on an individual and private basis. They never have and

                                      never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all

                                      a "joke!"



                                      I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or

                                      seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and

                                      protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.

                                      The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are

                                      inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to

                                      comply and obey. There are always those authority figures

                                      and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've

                                      become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn

                                      that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).

                                      Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more

                                      often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence

                                      and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply

                                      losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what

                                      turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that

                                      one has been a Seeker all a
                                      long!



                                      Prometheus



                                      Jonathan wrote:



                                      Etznab and Mishmisha,



                                      I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through

                                      yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar

                                      was a fraud.



                                      As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another

                                      emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't

                                      sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was

                                      based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.



                                      Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is

                                      another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in

                                      something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't

                                      recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through

                                      regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things

                                      and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hello Etznab and All, It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters, by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar and, thus, still belong to ECKankar.
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello Etznab and All,
                                        It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,
                                        by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar
                                        and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the
                                        images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted
                                        too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's
                                        descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their
                                        pictures.

                                        In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley
                                        left ECKankar and were recently Touched-Up again.
                                        Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!

                                        I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated
                                        in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently
                                        HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.
                                        In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.
                                        When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing
                                        a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!

                                        Prometheus



                                        Etznab wrote:
                                        About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                                        if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                                        old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                                        leaves with them.

                                        Just wondering.

                                        Etznab


                                        Prometheus wrote:


                                        Hello Etznab and All,

                                        I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out

                                        with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.



                                        HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights

                                        (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and

                                        add some new terms that he's used recently (in the

                                        March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)

                                        like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray

                                        Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.



                                        Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also

                                        define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch

                                        have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since

                                        the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!



                                        And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!

                                        But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,

                                        need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!

                                        This is just another form of editing where Klemp

                                        needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances

                                        the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations

                                        in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,

                                        believable!



                                        Prometheus



                                        etznab wrote:



                                        I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover

                                        for the new Eckankar catalog.



                                        Etznab



                                        Prometheus wrote:



                                        Yes, PT visiting his sister (Kay-Dee) in Paris, Kentucky

                                        versus Paris, France is a more significant lie than most

                                        ECKists what to admit, or to examine more closely. If

                                        EK chelas realized the greater implications their giddy

                                        laughter might turn into a nervous laughter. You see,

                                        according to Paul, after he met K.D. in "Paris" he then

                                        went to India.



                                        Well, since "Paris, France" was a lie (joke) then it only

                                        makes sense that going to India was too! Thus, there

                                        was never a meeting up with LEM Sudar Singh, or Rebazar

                                        Tarzs. Now most ECKists will say that this "joke" was told

                                        a long time ago way before Twitchell became the Mahanta.

                                        That's not true! Twitchell recounts this story (i.e. lie,

                                        joke) in "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK Master"

                                        around mid-1971.



                                        The reason why PT's & HK's lies bother some ECKists

                                        and not others is because some a Truth Seekers while

                                        the rest are Religious Followers. I've always been a Seeker

                                        of Truth even before, during and after ECKankar. Those

                                        EKists who close their eyes, ears, and minds are Religious

                                        Followers who need to believe in Myth! These EKists don't

                                        even realize that if a/the "Master" did "appear" to them in

                                        the "physical" that it would be in an Astral Body! And, isn't

                                        it strange that Rebazar and the other ancient EK Masters,

                                        who still have physical bodies, can't manifest for at least

                                        the H.I. Meeting at an EK Seminar! They can only "appear"

                                        on an individual and private basis. They never have and

                                        never will appear to a group of ECKists because it's all

                                        a "joke!"



                                        I think that the reason for most ECKists Not hearing or

                                        seeing the Truth is because their egos are too strong and

                                        protective. And, the fact that most people want to believe.

                                        The problem is that we are taught to be followers. We are

                                        inundated with rules at a very early age and are taught to

                                        comply and obey. There are always those authority figures

                                        and experts who know more than we do, at least until we've

                                        become more "educated" and have matured. One has to learn

                                        that there are no absolutes (except for decay of the physical).

                                        Still, what turns a Follower into a Leader? Normally, and more

                                        often than not, it's a combination of charisma, ego, intelligence

                                        and power. What turns a Seeker into a Follower? It's simply

                                        losing one's way and sleep walking through life! And, what

                                        turns a Follower into a Seeker? Perhaps it's realizing that

                                        one has been a Seeker all along!



                                        Prometheus



                                        Jonathan wrote:



                                        Etznab and Mishmisha,



                                        I have a little bit more discussion on emotions that I went through

                                        yesterday. They both have to do with when I discovered that Eckankar

                                        was a fraud.



                                        As I was falling asleep last night it occurred to me that another

                                        emotion that came up yesterday was "disappointment." That doesn't

                                        sound like a severe emotion for finding out that your religion was

                                        based on lies, but believe it or not, that came up yesterday too.



                                        Something that didn't come up was "loss of innocence," but that is

                                        another emotion that commonly comes up when someone believes in

                                        something and then the rug is pulled out from under them. I don't

                                        recall whether "loss of innocence" is something that I went through

                                        regarding Eckankar, but I heve been through if for some other things

                                        and that can be a very overpowering emotion to go through.
                                      • jonathanjohns96
                                        All, Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin Gross book Your Right To Know (copyright 1979) there are four ink line drawings of Eck masters:
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
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                                          All,

                                          Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin Gross' book "Your Right To Know"(copyright 1979) there are four ink line drawings of Eck masters: Fubbi Quantz, Gopal Das, Lai Tsi, and Rebazar Tarzs [sic]. They pretty much look the way they "should" look. I would say the quality of the drawings is very high. On page ii it states "Ink sketches by Helen Baird." I don't know whether these predate Diane Stanleys artwork or not.

                                          Jonathan


                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello Etznab and All,
                                          > It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,
                                          > by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar
                                          > and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the
                                          > images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted
                                          > too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's
                                          > descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their
                                          > pictures.
                                          >
                                          > In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley
                                          > left ECKankar and were recently Touched-Up again.
                                          > Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!
                                          >
                                          > I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated
                                          > in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently
                                          > HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.
                                          > In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.
                                          > When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing
                                          > a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Etznab wrote:
                                          > About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                                          > if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                                          > old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                                          > leaves with them.
                                          >
                                          > Just wondering.
                                          >
                                          > Etznab
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hello Etznab and All,
                                          >
                                          > I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                                          >
                                          > with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                                          >
                                          > (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                                          >
                                          > add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                                          >
                                          > March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                                          >
                                          > like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                                          >
                                          > Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                                          >
                                          > define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                                          >
                                          > have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                                          >
                                          > the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                                          >
                                          > But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                                          >
                                          > need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                                          >
                                          > This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                                          >
                                          > needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                                          >
                                          > the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                                          >
                                          > in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                                          >
                                          > believable!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > etznab wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                                          >
                                          > for the new Eckankar catalog.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Etznab
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Hello Jonathan and All, Yes, I remember Helen s sketches. I think she was the one that came up with the currently used EK symbol versus the Greek looking
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Mar 4, 2009
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                                            Hello Jonathan and All,
                                            Yes, I remember Helen's sketches. I think she
                                            was the one that came up with the currently
                                            used "EK" symbol versus the Greek looking
                                            letters. I remember her telling me once that
                                            she was in HK's Satsang Class, in Las Vegas,
                                            and that Harry was the Arahata.

                                            BTW- When compared to the recent pics
                                            of Yaubl and Fubbi how do Helen's sketches
                                            differ? What changes have been made in their
                                            appearances between then and now? Are they
                                            turning younger like Benjamin Button? If so,
                                            that would be like in the movie!

                                            Prometheus



                                            Jonathan wrote:
                                            All,

                                            Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin
                                            Gross' book "Your Right To Know"(copyright 1979) there
                                            are four ink line drawings of Eck masters: Fubbi Quantz,
                                            Gopal Das, Lai Tsi, and Rebazar Tarzs [sic]. They pretty
                                            much look the way they "should" look. I would say the
                                            quality of the drawings is very high. On page ii it states
                                            "Ink sketches by Helen Baird." I don't know whether these
                                            predate Diane Stanleys artwork or not.

                                            Jonathan


                                            prometheus wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hello Etznab and All,
                                            > It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,
                                            > by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar
                                            > and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the
                                            > images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted
                                            > too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's
                                            > descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their
                                            > pictures.
                                            >
                                            > In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley
                                            > left ECKankar and were recently Touched-Up again.
                                            > Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!
                                            >
                                            > I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated
                                            > in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently
                                            > HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.
                                            > In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.
                                            > When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing
                                            > a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Etznab wrote:
                                            > About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering
                                            > if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If
                                            > old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art
                                            > leaves with them.
                                            >
                                            > Just wondering.
                                            >
                                            > Etznab
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hello Etznab and All,
                                            >
                                            > I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out
                                            >
                                            > with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights
                                            >
                                            > (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and
                                            >
                                            > add some new terms that he's used recently (in the
                                            >
                                            > March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)
                                            >
                                            > like: White Magic; White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray
                                            >
                                            > Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also
                                            >
                                            > define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch
                                            >
                                            > have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since
                                            >
                                            > the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!
                                            >
                                            > But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,
                                            >
                                            > need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!
                                            >
                                            > This is just another form of editing where Klemp
                                            >
                                            > needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances
                                            >
                                            > the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations
                                            >
                                            > in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,
                                            >
                                            > believable!
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > etznab wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover
                                            >
                                            > for the new Eckankar catalog.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Etznab
                                          • etznab@aol.com
                                            Jonathan, That s one book I don t have, but thanks for sharing that. Etznab ... From: jonathanjohns96 To:
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Mar 4, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Jonathan,

                                              That's one book I don't have, but thanks
                                              for sharing that.

                                              Etznab

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 8:57 pm
                                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Make-Over and Touch-Up of
                                              the EK Masters



                                              All,



                                              Just thought I would add my two cents worth. In Darwin Gross' book
                                              "Your Right To Know"(copyright 1979) there are four ink line drawings
                                              of Eck masters: Fubbi Quantz, Gopal Das, Lai Tsi, and Rebazar Tarzs
                                              [sic]. They pretty much look the way they "should" look. I would say
                                              the quality of the drawings is very high. On page ii it states "Ink
                                              sketches by Helen Baird." I don't know whether these predate Diane
                                              Stanleys artwork or not.



                                              Jonathan



                                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                              >

                                              > Hello Etznab and All,

                                              > It could be that the oldest pics of the EK Masters,

                                              > by Diane Stanley, were commissioned by ECKankar

                                              > and, thus, still belong to ECKankar. After all, the

                                              > images of these EK Masters are probably copyrighted

                                              > too! I don't know. But, it is interesting that PT's

                                              > descriptions of Yaubl & Fubbi simply don't fit their

                                              > pictures.

                                              >

                                              > In any case the pics were redone after Diane Stanley

                                              > left ECKankar and20were recently Touched-Up again.

                                              > Actually, it was more of a Face-Lift than a Make-Over!

                                              >

                                              > I'm just waiting for Klemp's "official" pic to be Updated

                                              > in order to be accurate, realistic, and honest. Apparently

                                              > HK's big fat ego has gotten the best of him once again.

                                              > In real life he looks really tired, wrinkled, gray, and old.

                                              > When on stage HK reminds me of a boney scarecrow wearing

                                              > a new oversized suit! Either that, or HK's head is shrinking!

                                              >

                                              > Prometheus

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > Etznab wrote:

                                              > About the MAKE-OVER, I was wondering

                                              > if maybe new artists equals new pictures. If

                                              > old artists leave Eckankar, whether their art

                                              > leaves with them.

                                              >

                                              > Just wondering.

                                              >

                                              > Etznab

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > Prometheus wrote:

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > Hello Etznab and All,

                                              >

                                              > I'm thinking that Klemp will soon be coming out

                                              >

                                              > with a newly revised version of his EK LexiCON.

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > HK'll want to "clean-up" the mistakes and oversights

                                              >

                                              > (of PT's EK Dictionary) from his 1998 copyright, and

                                              >

                                              > add some new terms that he's used recently (in the

                                              >

                                              > March 2009 Ask the Master Q&A, The EK Mystic World)

                                              >

                                              > like: White Magic;=2
                                              0White Karma; Gray Magic and Gray

                                              >

                                              > Karma, with lines and degrees of demarcation, etc.

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > Perhaps, Mr. Obvious/Oblivious (Klemp), will also

                                              >

                                              > define the "fibs" and "white lies" that he and Twitch

                                              >

                                              > have told as a form of (positive) 'White Karma' since

                                              >

                                              > the end result is doing "Good" (especially for himself)!

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > And Yes, the EK Masters did get a MAKE-OVER!

                                              >

                                              > But, Why did the EK Masters, of Twitchell's creation,

                                              >

                                              > need another Make-Over? It's all about appearance!

                                              >

                                              > This is just another form of editing where Klemp

                                              >

                                              > needs to add his own KAL-like touch. This enhances

                                              >

                                              > the Unreal for the benefit of his followers imaginations

                                              >

                                              > in order to make the EK con more acceptable and, thus,

                                              >

                                              > believable!

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > Prometheus

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > etznab wrote:

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > I think the Eck Masters (some, at least) got a makeover

                                              >

                                              > for the new Eckankar catalog.

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > Etznab

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >
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