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Information in 1979 book "Your Right To Know" by Darwin Gross

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  • Jonathan Johns
    Prometheus,   I have a copy of Your Right To Know by Darwin Gross (Copyright 1979).   ECK and ECKANKAR are the only trademarks listed on page ii.   The
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 5, 2009
      Prometheus,
       
      I have a copy of "Your Right To Know" by Darwin Gross (Copyright 1979).
       
      ECK and ECKANKAR are the only trademarks listed on page ii.
       
      The Introduction is by Bernadine Burlin who I believe was Darwin's personal secretary. On page III of the Introduction she writes "Eckankar, A Way Of Life, was brought to the waiting world by Sri Paul Twitchell, in 1965."
       
      So I believe that "Eckankar, A Way Of Life" was the phrase used in 1979. I am virtually certain that Paul Twitchell used "Eckankar, The Science of Soul Travel."
       
      When I joined in 1979 I definitely did not see Eckankar as a religion. As you stated, that is one of the things that attracted me to it.
       
      However, on page 2 of "Your Right To Know" one paragraph starts out"ECKANKAR is not a new cult,but the oldest religious teaching in all the world."
       
      But I still say that Eckankar as a religion was not emphasized in 1979. This may very well be the only reference to Eckankar as a religion in the entire book.
       
      At some point I believe Eckankar came up with "Eckankar, Religion of the Light and Sound." That may have been when it happened.
       
      Update: Page 149 of "Your Right To Know" in the "questions" section: "The message of ECK can never be repeated too often, for as a Way of Life, a very Sacred Way of Life, it has proven to be a path millions have hungered for, for many lifetimes."
       
      Jonathan


      --- On Fri, 2/6/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Promotion of Eckankar Part 2 of 3 Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 2:48 AM

      Hello Etznab and All,
      Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as,
      our former religions were more, in the beginning,
      than we discovered them to be, later, on down the
      road. Where does the fault lie? It lies with us, them,
      and those people (authority figures) and experts we
      admired and trusted!

      And, it becomes even more difficult to resist these
      and more intimidating influences (tactics) when religions
      control the government (by varying degrees) through
      laws. Yet, it is still possible to dream.

      Question: When did Klemp declare ECKankar as
      a religion publicly? It was when he retitled ECKankar
      as: The Religion of the Light and Sound of God, but
      in what year was that done?

      How many other descriptions of ECKankar were there
      and what were they?

      There was: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST);
      The Path of Total Awareness; ..... What else? I forget!

      I believe that Twitch's real life Master, Kirpal Singh,
      once gave a talk titled, "The Ancient Science of Soul."

      I remember that most changes took place around the
      mid 1980s. I really didn't like that HK called ECKankar
      a "religion" since this is what we rejected when searching
      for a spiritual "path." And, I was confused that Klemp
      used the term "God" instead of "SUGMAD!" I thought,
      Is Harold embarrassed to use the word SUGMAD since
      he was now rubbing elbows with other "religious"
      leaders? It is easier for him to "fit-in" with the other
      local preachers and church leaders when he's using
      the (same) term "GOD" versus using the more accurate
      and honest term of "SUGMAD!"

      Prometheus

      etznab wrote:

      I understand that I could have been more
      specific.

      It's the subject matter of "God" & "Heaven",
      etc., that almost all religions appear to speak
      for. Can they really speak for every individual
      & the experience of every individual, though?.
      Does an organized religion have the power to
      "legislate" and / or define spiritual experience
      and the personal experiences of others?

      Put another way, Does "co-worker with God"
      equate to "co-worker with one particular organ-
      ization and the head of same?"

      I guess it depends on whether one believes
      that "God" is manifest on Earth in the form of
      one person. The problem I have with this is that
      several religions claim representation of "God"
      and not all of them are so omniscient as same,
      especially when it comes to world history. More
      than one company can sell apples and oranges,
      but they aren't necessarily changing the fruit, but
      the names and the prices may vary. So, does it
      change the truth about what apples & oranges
      truly are just because a company gives them so
      many brand names and tries to market them?

      My point is that, in truth, I don't believe there is
      an organization which can change what is "God"
      or the "spiritual planes", what they truly are simply
      by claiming to be the one true representation. But
      this is my personal opinion. That it's an illusion to
      abandon personal experience to the point where
      others become the go-between concerning "God'
      and "universal truths", etc., as if the individual has
      to "buy (from them) a stairway to Heaven.

      Not having one's own land to grow apples and
      oranges might make one dependent on growers
      who do, but I believe the place where "God" and
      "Heaven" exist is the property of every individual
      regardless of what organized religions and their
      leaders might appear to claim they own.

      I didn't always have the same beliefs about the
      Eckankar organization. Eventually though, I just
      accepted the conclusion it's not so much better
      from the Christian religion in which I was raised.
      I've come to accept Eckankar as just one more
      form of organized religion. Imperfections and all.
      I believed it was more perfect once than what it
      appears to be now, until I did some research &
      learned about the "trappings" it has in common
      with all the other forms of organized religion.

      Etznab


    • prometheus_973
      Hello Jonathan and All, Actually, in his Square Peg article Twitch discussed making his new creation of Eckankar into a religion. This was probably around
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 6, 2009
        Hello Jonathan and All,
        Actually, in his "Square Peg" article Twitch
        discussed making his new creation of "Eckankar"
        into a religion. This was probably around the
        time Jack Jarvis wrote his other articles on
        Twitchell. One of the other articles by Jarvis
        (posted here), is where PT derides women and
        Negroes, and it was printed in July of 1963.

        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/scanindexsubAcss.asp?indexID=153

        This is interesting because Twitch, also,
        stated (in another article) that he would
        never make Eckankar into a "Tax-Exempt"
        religion/org because he felt that he should
        pay taxes just like the man in the street. I'll
        have to look for that post, but I gave that quote
        and source not too long ago. Anyway I know
        he used the term "Tax-Exempt," but PT might
        not have said religion. I think Eckankar did
        start as a Non-Profit by being listed as an
        "Educational" org versus Religion. TM was
        listed as a Non-Profit Educational org. and
        Not as a Religion, but that was to hide it as
        a religion to the Western student (chela).

        Yes, I knew 8th Initiate BB. She was very protective
        of Darwin's privacy and very loyal... unlike the others.
        So, it seems like we have these descriptions of PT's
        creation. I listed two under Darwin, but I'm not
        certain if he was responsible for both. I forget
        which one was still used by Klemp until he changed
        it around the mid to late 1980s.

        PT: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST)

        DG: The Path of Total Awareness
        Eckankar, A Way of Life

        HK: Eckankar, Religion of the Light and Sound of God

        Prometheus


        jonathan wrote:
        >
        > Prometheus,
        >  
        I have a copy of "Your Right To Know" by Darwin Gross (Copyright 1979).
        >  
        > ECK and ECKANKAR are the only trademarks listed on page ii.
        >  
        > The Introduction is by Bernadine Burlin who I believe was Darwin's
        personal secretary. On page III of the Introduction she writes "Eckankar,
        A Way Of Life, was brought to the waiting world by Sri Paul Twitchell,
        in 1965."
        >  
        > So I believe that "Eckankar, A Way Of Life" was the phrase used
        in 1979. I am virtually certain that Paul Twitchell used "Eckankar,
        The Science of Soul Travel."
        >  
        > When I joined in 1979 I definitely did not see Eckankar as a religion.
        As you stated, that is one of the things that attracted me to it.
        >  
        > However, on page 2 of "Your Right To Know" one paragraph
        starts out"ECKANKAR is not a new cult,but the oldest religious
        teaching in all the world."
        >  
        > But I still say that Eckankar as a religion was not emphasized
        in 1979. This may very well be the only reference to Eckankar as
        a religion in the entire book.
        >  
        > At some point I believe Eckankar came up with "Eckankar,
        Religion of the Light and Sound." That may have been when
        it happened.
        >  
        > Update: Page 149 of "Your Right To Know" in the "questions"
        section: "The message of ECK can never be repeated too often,
        for as a Way of Life, a very Sacred Way of Life, it has proven to be
        a path millions have hungered for, for many lifetimes."
        >  
        > Jonathan
        >
        >

        Prometheus wrote:
        > Hello Etznab and All,
        > Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as,
        > our former religions were more, in the beginning,
        > than we discovered them to be, later, on down the
        > road. Where does the fault lie? It lies with us, them,
        > and those people (authority figures) and experts we
        > admired and trusted!
        >
        > And, it becomes even more difficult to resist these
        > and more intimidating influences (tactics) when religions
        > control the government (by varying degrees) through
        > laws. Yet, it is still possible to dream.
        >
        > Question: When did Klemp declare ECKankar as
        > a religion publicly? It was when he retitled ECKankar
        > as: The Religion of the Light and Sound of God, but
        > in what year was that done?
        >
        > How many other descriptions of ECKankar were there
        > and what were they?
        >
        > There was: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST);
        > The Path of Total Awareness; ..... What else? I forget!
        >
        > I believe that Twitch's real life Master, Kirpal Singh,
        > once gave a talk titled, "The Ancient Science of Soul."
        >
        > I remember that most changes took place around the
        > mid 1980s. I really didn't like that HK called ECKankar
        > a "religion" since this is what we rejected when searching
        > for a spiritual "path." And, I was confused that Klemp
        > used the term "God" instead of "SUGMAD!" I thought,
        > Is Harold embarrassed to use the word SUGMAD since
        > he was now rubbing elbows with other "religious"
        > leaders? It is easier for him to "fit-in" with the other
        > local preachers and church leaders when he's using
        > the (same) term "GOD" versus using the more accurate
        > and honest term of "SUGMAD!"
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > etznab wrote:
        >
        > I understand that I could have been more
        > specific.
        >
        > It's the subject matter of "God" & "Heaven",
        > etc., that almost all religions appear to speak
        > for. Can they really speak for every individual
        > & the experience of every individual, though?.
        > Does an organized religion have the power to
        > "legislate" and / or define spiritual experience
        > and the personal experiences of others?
        >
        > Put another way, Does "co-worker with God"
        > equate to "co-worker with one particular organ-
        > ization and the head of same?"
        >
        > I guess it depends on whether one believes
        > that "God" is manifest on Earth in the form of
        > one person. The problem I have with this is that
        > several religions claim representation of "God"
        > and not all of them are so omniscient as same,
        > especially when it comes to world history. More
        > than one company can sell apples and oranges,
        > but they aren't necessarily changing the fruit, but
        > the names and the prices may vary. So, does it
        > change the truth about what apples & oranges
        > truly are just because a company gives them so
        > many brand names and tries to market them?
        >
        > My point is that, in truth, I don't believe there is
        > an organization which can change what is "God"
        > or the "spiritual planes", what they truly are simply
        > by claiming to be the one true representation. But
        > this is my personal opinion. That it's an illusion to
        > abandon personal experience to the point where
        > others become the go-between concerning "God'
        > and "universal truths", etc., as if the individual has
        > to "buy (from them) a stairway to Heaven.
        >
        > Not having one's own land to grow apples and
        > oranges might make one dependent on growers
        > who do, but I believe the place where "God" and
        > "Heaven" exist is the property of every individual
        > regardless of what organized religions and their
        > leaders might appear to claim they own.
        >
        > I didn't always have the same beliefs about the
        > Eckankar organization. Eventually though, I just
        > accepted the conclusion it's not so much better
        > from the Christian religion in which I was raised.
        > I've come to accept Eckankar as just one more
        > form of organized religion. Imperfections and all.
        > I believed it was more perfect once than what it
        > appears to be now, until I did some research &
        > learned about the "trappings" it has in common
        > with all the other forms of organized religion.
        >
        > Etznab
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Jonathan and All, This is a very good summary. I thought I d add P.T.s original descriptions of the EK Masters that tell of high turbans and long
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
          Hello Jonathan and All,
          This is a very good summary. I thought I'd
          add P.T.s original descriptions of the EK Masters
          that tell of "high turbans" and "long beards."

          BTW- The main difference between Sikhs and
          Hindus is that the Sikhs rejected the caste system
          that is still practiced by Hindus even today!

          Further down I'd like to make a few more comments
          about ECK Centers, etc.

          Prometheus

          From post #4275:

          Hello All,
          To sum it up, it seems Klemp got it wrong
          again! PT states that YAUBL "looks very old"
          and "he doesn't walk upright" while FUBBI
          "wears a High Turban," and is "SIX FEET
          THREE" and that's without the "high turban!"


          Descriptions of ECK Masters

          From "Difficulties Of Becoming The
          Living ECK Master" pages 109-113.

          PT: "Now, Sudar Singh was a pupil
          of Rebazar Tarzs, and Rebazar Tarzs
          was a pupil of Fubbi Quantz, and
          Fubbi Quantz was a pupil or a chela
          of Yaubl Sacabi." [pg. 111]

          **********************YAUBL SACABI**********************

          YAUBL Sacabi -- According to ________YAUBL Sacabi -- According to
          PT in "Difficulties:"_______________HK in The ECKankar LexiCON:

          "FIVE FEET EIGHT or TEN"_________According to the picture he's
          "sort of a square figure"_____________bald and looks 40-50 years
          "he speaks wit great dignity"_________Also, HK claims he was alive
          _______________________________in "2000-1700 B.C." which
          "old... I would say, 2000-3000 ______means he's 3700-4000 years
          years"__________________________old Not "2000-3000 years" old.
          "He lives in a place called Agam______HK says he's not "very old"
          Des"___________________________looking, thus, he's not "bent
          ________________________________over" as PT stated.

          [Note: Agam Des/Lok is the 9th Plane]

          "he is the leader of this group________Whose right? PT or HK?
          who are the God-Eaters."_______________
          "His FACE is of a LIGHT COLOR"____*YAUBL Sacabi -- According to
          "he has very PALE BLUE EYES"_______HK in "Those Wonderful ECK
          "He looks very ascetic"_____________Masters:"

          "he LOOKS VERY OLD"_____________"A strong nose, thick neck,
          "he Doesn't WALK UPRIGHT...________well-developed muscles in
          he WALKS VERY SLOWLY"____________arms and chest outline a
          "a very high, well, I don't____________capable, rugged appearance...
          call it A HIGH VOICE, but I'd________bald head looks a bit like
          say a medium voice. It speaks________a brass dome [p.145]...
          in a higher pitch than most _________a robust man of about average
          ______________________________height, a sturdy specimen...
          voices do... he has very long ________[p. 133] a short maroon robe
          slender hands "he wears a sort_______and sturdy sandals with
          of a sandal.. a TOGA TYPE of_________wide straps." [p. 148]
          GOWN."

          [PT never mentions, here, that Yaubl was BALD]

          "he likes to sit in a corner at what
          we would call, a public market."
          "He sometimes goes into the temple
          and talks from a podium"
          "There's a light that shines over him
          as if an electrical bulb has been put
          inside of him and turned on and the
          effervescence of the light just shines
          out from him."

          FYI- Here's some comments from page 151 in "Those Wonderful
          ECK Masters." Klemp is telling a story where a chela has a "vision"
          and met an entity "the Indian guide was Yaubl Sacabi in DISGUISE."
          Next, she meets Yaubl in a class he's teaching where he's "telling
          of the enormous DANGER of WHITE MAGIC, even of dabbling in
          it. [How about Black Magic is it as dangerous? BTW- "Disguising"
          oneself as an "Indian guide" isn't dabbling in White Magic?] Yaubl
          continues, "He pointed out that when someone thinks he's above
          another, it is a kind of White Magic, too, and has consequences."
          [Thus, the EK Spiritual Hierarchy and, especially, the RESA
          Hierarchy with the initiation levels and Positions of Power above
          others is a form of White Magic... what are the consequences?]

          **********************FUBBI QUANTZ*************************

          FUBBI Quantz -- According to PT_____FUBBI Quantz -- According to
          in "Difficulties:"______________________HK in The ECKankar Lexicon:

          "a rather SERIOUS PERSONALITY"_____Fubbi's been around since "500 B.C."
          "there are times when he's a_________which means he's 2500 years old,
          humorous sort of a person."__________and Not 1000 years old as PT said!
          "He wears a HIGH TURBAN"_________There's No "Turban" and certainly not
          "he wears a LONG WHITE ROBE."______a "high" one! And No, he was not the
          "he doesn't do much appearing_______"spiritual guide" for Columbus nor
          to people"_________________________did they search for "protein" in order
          "He's VERY BUSY there in the__________to revitalize depleted nutrition for
          teachings of The Shariyat-Ki-_________Europeans. So who's right again...
          Sugmad" "He is awfully busy in________PT or HK? Oops! I forgot! Klemp
          several ways"he has an age which______copied the descriptions from PT's
          is somewhat older than most of the____ECKankar Dictionary!
          ages."
          "I would say the man... is close to
          1,000 years of age."

          "He came back as a co-worker in____[What's with this? He came back
          the early days, maybe 500-600______again after a long vacation on
          years ago."________________________the Inner Planes or what?]

          "He is VERY TALL, he's about_________[Does Fubbi look tall? Were
          SIX FEET THREE"__________________people that tall back in those
          "very swarthy, has long hands,___________days? Maybe Goliath was that
          and very pointed feet"________________tall, but I'd say PT was making
          "wears a LONG WHITE ROBE"__________it all up! Hey! Maybe that
          "a VERY SERIOUS sort of a man."______"High Turban" made him 6'3"!]

          "He will joke and laugh at times"_____*Fubbi Quantz According to HK in
          "You feel a lightness about him that____"Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
          you do around Sudar Singh."
          "Fubbi Quantz has a DEEP ROLLING____"a tall, elderly man with white hair
          VOICE."____________________________and beard, and a gentle smile...
          "He looks upon everything in life_______a WHITE ROBE that reaches WELL
          VERY SERIOUSLY"____________________BELOW HIS KNEES... PT once
          "he has a very strong mental trait"_______described him as having a
          "he takes all of his duties_______________LATERN JAW."
          EXCEEDINGLY SERIOUS."_____________"long white hair" [pg. 29] "his
          _________________________________most striking feature was a
          _________________________________LONG WHITE BEARD." [pg. 41]


          NOTE: On page 36 of TWEM Klemp
          tells a story of an ECKist who, at first,
          confused FUBBI with JESUS. I thought
          it was GOPAL DAS that they confused
          with JESUS!


          BTW- In the 2000 copyright of the
          combined printing of the Shariyats
          Books 1&2 on page X is the following:

          "BOOK ONE One is the first section of
          these works, which was DICTATED by
          FUBBI QUANTZ, the great ECK Master
          who serves at the Katsupari Monastery
          in northern Tibet."

          "BOOK TWO, is the second section of
          these works of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
          which was DICTATED by YAUBL SACABI,
          the great ECK Master who serves at the
          Gare-Hira Temple of Golden Wisdom at
          AGAM DES in the Hindu Kush mountains."

          Question: Why is Yaubl the guardian of
          the second (Astral) plane Book Two of
          the Shariyat when he resides on Agam
          Des, the 9th Plane? And Why is Gopal
          Das the guardian of the "fourth book"
          of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad on the "Astral
          Plane." [Shariyat 2, CH. 9] Shouldn't the
          "fourth book" be on the Mental Plane?
          And, why hasn't Gopal "dictated" the
          "fourth book" to Klemp?

          Here are some interesting tidbits I found
          in the Shariyat 2, CH. 4:

          "Fubbi Quantz, Rebazar Tarzs, and other
          ECK Masters, all having attained a high
          degree of consciousness well beyond the
          level of man, appear differently to man."

          Is that a disclaimer, or another Catch-22?

          "The state of the ECK Master is that he must
          be as perfect as the ECK or that which is known
          as the Sugmad... His human body, through which
          he operates, is in a state of health and is retained
          as long as his position is necessary within this
          physical world, several hundred years if necessary.
          Spiritually, the Living ECK Master lives in a state
          of God Consciousness for twenty-four hours a
          day. Also he has developed, but doesn't seek,
          what is known as the various siddhis powers,
          due to his high state of evolution."

          BTW- In Klemp's Lexicon he defines "siddhis" as:
          "Psychic powers, spiritual powers, supernormal
          powers, prophecy, healing, etc."

          Prometheus

          jonathan wrote:
          >
          Promotion of Eckankar - Part 2 of 3 - The Madison Avenue
          Approach to Eckankar
          >
          > A long time ago (20 years?) I listened to a tape by Harold Klemp. In
          > this tape he tells the story of how Eckankar had hired an advertising
          > firm to give Eckankar advice on how to promote Eckankar. He joked
          > around about the advice they received such as "Send this Rebazar Tarz
          > guy on a road trip around the United States." But if you have been
          > observing Eckankar like I have over the past fifteen years (1994-2008
          > inclusive) you will notice that Eckankar seems to have actually taken
          > a lot of this advertising advice they received seriously. I have
          > coined the term "The Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar"
          > to describe this phenomenon.

          *P: Yes, Klemp got a big laugh from the EK Seminar crowd when he
          mentioned that these PR people wanted to send Rebazar out on the
          road to promote ECKankar. The real laugh was on us! We were actually
          laughing at our own ignorance while Klemp was having an even bigger
          laugh at our gullibility in believing in a "500 year old" Master that has
          never shown himself (to even ECKists) in his physical body in all of these
          years! Amazing!

          > And actually, this phenomenon even goes all the way back to Paul
          > Twitchell who was also concerned about the "image" of Eckankar.
          >
          > A. Paul Twitchell's ''Closely-Cropped Beard Syndrome''
          > Going all the way back to Paul Twitchell there is an interesting
          > observation that I have made. Ever notice how many times the Eck
          > writings mention that the Eck Masters all have "closely-cropped
          > beards?" Did any of these members of Eckankar ever look at a photo
          > of Fubbi Quantz or Lai Tsi? Both of these Eck masters have long beards.
          > On the surface of things, it would seem that Eckankar has some kind
          > of obsession with neatness. Psychologically speaking, that would
          > indicate some type of underlying guilt complex. But no matter... My
          > personal view is that this is part of the current "Madison-Avenue
          > Approach" to promoting Eckankar to the public. In other words, it is
          > part of Eckankar's promotional campaign which wants smartly-dressed,
          > dapper Eck Masters, not sloven ones with ragged or shaggy beards.
          > This actually started with Paul Twitchell when he instituted the "No
          > Turbans Policy" which is my next topic.

          *P: There is a dress code for ECK Leaders. Apparently, only "EK Masters"
          can look like bums!

          > B. Paul Twitchell's ''No Turbans Policy''
          > Are Eck masters allowed to wear turbans? It is something that members
          > of Eckankar need to ask themselves. In order to clarify why this is
          > true I need to ask everyone the following question: "Do you know what
          > the surname "Singh" means? And what that name implies? I will answer
          > this question by relating a short conversation that I had with a
          > native of North India.

          *P: What's even more strange is the HIGH TURBAN like the one FUBBI
          wears (according to Twitchell).

          > A few weeks ago I was talking to a lady from North India. I asked her
          > to clarify Punjabi, Sikhs, and the surname Singh. She told me that
          > Punjabi Province is 55% Hindus, and 45% Sikhs. They are similar
          > religions, but Hindus and Sikhs consider them to be completely
          > different. Sikhism split off from Hinduism about 500 years ago. She
          > said that almost all Sikhs have the surname Singh. The word "Singh"
          > means lion. The name has significance with the history of the
          > religion. Even though she is a Hindu, she knew a lot about Sikhism
          > and explained it all to me, but I forgot what she said. I already
          > knew that virtually all Sikh men in India wear turbans. The one thing
          > I forgot to ask is "What language do the Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab
          > Province speak. Wikipedia informed me that everyone in The Punjab
          > speaks Punjabi, both Hindus and Sikhs.

          *P: Since she was Hindu she probably didn't want to point out
          that she still believes in a caste system (but won't admit to it)
          and that the Sikhs rejected the caste system and that this was
          the main factor for causing this sect (religion) to be created
          in the first place.


          > The point of this is any time that a person reads an Eckankar book
          > and sees the name Singh, you should be picturing a man from North
          > India wearing a turban. You will also know that he is of the Sikh
          > religion. You would also know that he probably speaks Punjabi. I
          > believe you will be correct 95% of the time providing the man is
          > still living in India.

          *P: True. Klemp has modernized and sanitized ECKankar to make
          it more acceptable and this helps to make it more palatable in order
          to swallow all of those lies.

          > So my question to Eckankar is "Why are there no graphical depictions
          > of Eck masters showing them wearing a turban?" My own answer is that
          > Americans, even back in the 1960s when Paul T was first formulating
          > Eckankar, have a stereotypical attitude about men from India who wear
          > a turban. In America, this image is associated with snake charmers
          > and it is obviously meant to be a negative stereotype. So I honestly
          > believe that this is why no one has ever seen a depiction of Sudar
          > Singh or Kirpal Singh in Eckankar's literature. To the subconscious
          > mind of Americans, a man from India wearing a turban is seen as a
          > snake charmer, not a spiritual master.
          >
          > C. "Eckankar looks too much like an Eastern religion" or "Removing
          > the 'strange' words from Eckankar"

          > Over the past ten to fifteen years Eckankar has been systematically
          > de-emphasizing the Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words in Eckankar. For
          > example, replacing "Sugmad" with God. This was recently noted by
          > Prometheus for the January 2009 Newsletter.
          >
          > I believe the main reason for this is because Eckankar wants all of
          > these words out of the Introductory literature because they feel that
          > it is scaring off newcomers. I see Eckankar eventually removing
          > virtually all of them from all of the Intro material. But Eckankar
          > will leave them in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad in order to add an air of
          > mysteriousness to the writings. Ford Johnson discussed this in his
          > book. Cultwatchers in general have pointed this out too.
          >
          > By the way, I don't think Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words are
          > strange, but let's face it, the majority of Americans probably do. As
          > a sidelight. Regarding the word "Eck," a native Hindi speaker from
          > Northern India told me that "Ek" is more the spelling in the Punjabi
          > language, whereas "Ik" (pronounced like the English word "ache") is
          > more the spelling in the Hindi language. So "Ek" should really be
          > considered a Punjabi word. Both Hindi and Punjabi are Northern Indian
          > languages.

          *P: Well, the word change, to that of a "common language," is merely
          to Westernize ECKankar even more so! Klemp, and most Americans,
          as well as, non-Sikhs and non-Hindus are more comfortable by not
          using foreign religious terminology for use with their own religion.
          Yet, ECKists should all know that Sikhism and Hinduism are the true
          roots of ECKankar. Klemp continues to hide the fact that Twitch created
          ECKankar in the images of Ruhani Satsang and Radhasoami.

          > D. All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be on glossy paper
          >
          > All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be full color on
          > glossy paper. Why? It's all about appearances. Putting a first class
          > image forward. In a way I have no problem with that, but they could
          > be putting their resources toward a much more noble, spiritual goal
          > such as removing the many fear-based curses found in their writings.
          > Glossy paper wins out over that.

          *P: There's also the Style Sheet Guidelines that tell local ECKists
          what is proper and what is not when it comes to printing posters,
          EK newsletters, ads in newspapers, etc. You'd be surprised at how
          many RESAs don't know or follow these and other ESC Guidelines.

          > E. Eck Centers must look nice
          > Ever notice how Eck centers are always in nice, rented, office
          > complexes? They could save a lot of money by buying an old church
          > and using it. The reason they only use only rented, nice office space
          > is because of appearances. It puts forth the "correct" upscale, yuppy-
          > like appearance. They are not going to buy an old, run-down church.

          *P: Local EK areas don't have that much money to buy, restore, and
          maintain buildings, and for phone, gas, electric and insurance. And,
          the local area (city) has to be self-sufficient (not need help from the
          state's Satsang Society) with money, or else, there may end up being
          just one centrally located EK Center for the whole state or country!
          These EK Centers still have to do the Vahana thing and do intros and
          buy materials, rent rooms, rent booths, etc. There has to be other
          monies set aside for these and other things plus a reserve. And, let's
          not forget that all of this money is not theirs or the Satsang Society's!
          All money, assets, and materials were "donated" to and belong to the
          ESC... there is No local or state Satsang Society, or RESA ownership
          of anything. It all belongs to Klemp and Company and HK has the
          last word.

          > F. Eck Spiritual Campus
          > Ever wonder why the new building at the Eck Spiritual Campus was
          > built? I have. And the only reason I can come with is that,
          > basically, it's a visitor center for newcomers touring the Eckankar
          > grounds in Chanhassen. It's just for show. So people visiting
          > Eckankar's grounds can say "Wow, look at all these nice buildings.
          > These people are really upscale." I never heard of any member of
          > Eckankar ever taking a class there. A person on the Internet named
          > Dodie Belamy wrote an essay about Eckankar; she stated that it is
          > used to show visitors around .

          *P: IMO the new ESC building was built in order to shorten the
          drive for most of the staffers working there.. including Joan and
          Peter. I think that the old ESC was in St. Cloud (I visited there once
          in the 1980's for a private tour). Now, most of these ESC higher ups
          live in Eden Prairie. Plus, having everything in the same location
          is convenient. But, I will have to say that the guilted staircase does
          look rather Gauche and is typical of the overspending for appearance
          sake that churches (religions) tend to do to make the building seem
          "Holy" for their weak minded believers. In a way it's also a competition,
          or pissing contest among Preaches/Popes/LEMs and their big fat egos!


          > G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
          > I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
          > over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
          > Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
          > room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
          > flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
          > by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
          > at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main
          > room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
          > inches in size.

          *P: Well, there are, also, Guidelines for EK Centers and "suggestions,"
          with pictures, as to how these centers should be set up. Plus, one
          of Klemp's photos is larger than the others because this 14x17 is
          a special "Donation" photo which means there was a minimum cost
          ($25) but no maximum. At our EK Center I had his HK's placed in
          the center, and higher, than the other ECK Masters since he was their
          boss. We kept the larger Donation Photo on a stand next to some silk
          flowers (sometimes a chela would bring in some freshly cut flowers).
          Since we were required (by Guidelines) to keep the current "official"
          photo displayed we ended up having a few extra older photos in the
          back office where we, also, kept a 5x7 black and white of Twitch.
          However, my opinion is that Klemp hasn't changed his "official"
          photo for years now because he's so vain! Klemp uses the younger
          looking "official" photo in the EK Youth Letter of Light and on The
          Wisdom Notes page and else where!


          > For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
          > Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
          > overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
          > obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.
          > His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
          > doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
          > gray to black.

          *P: This is the older "Official" photo that hasn't been updated. Thus,
          this is why he looks younger. The photo hasn't been touched up, but
          it does show Klemp's vanity with his looks. He was called down for this
          once, long ago, when he switched to contacts instead of eye glasses!
          Soon, he went back to his eye glasses but not before having an "official"
          photo made showing him in a Hawaiian shirt and without glasses!

          On retouch. Of course Klemp has retouches done. IMO the most
          retouches were done recently on those new photos of the ECK Masters
          and this includes Klemp's own photo!


          > Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
          > Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
          > chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
          > very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
          > spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
          > said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
          > happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
          > an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
          > look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
          > hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
          > lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
          > retouching.
          >
          > H. And on a similar subject. Ever notice that sometime in the past
          > five to ten years there was some rule passed at Eckankar Headquarters
          > that every person shown in the Mystic World has to be smiling? I
          > noticed right away when it happened. Once again, it's another example
          > of the new paradigm in Eckankar that I call the "Happy-Happy
          > Syndrome." Portray everyone in Eckankar as smiling and you will
          > attract more members to Eckankar. My opinion is that you will attract
          > superficial people who are easily swayed by slick marketing.

          *P: I think that superficial people will be/are drawn into
          ECKankar due to the Status that initiation rank and titles
          now have. Look at these H.I.s! Are those "spiritual" people
          or actors? True, some are very good at what they do but
          they are very good actors too! This is because they are more
          delusional and live with and in their fantasy world more than
          others. They happily skip along with a basket full of promises
          just like all other religions hand out to their fearful, mindless,
          and dependent followers. I wonder, why do H.I. ECKists still
          think that they need Klemp after 30 plus years. Haven't they
          learned to be on their own and fly with their own wings!
        • D.R.D.
          Jonothan, I think maybe this article expresses some of the ideas I was contemplating a little better. E.S.A., I d would like to contribute this one to the
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
            Jonothan,

            I think maybe this article expresses
            some of the ideas I was contemplating a
            little better.

            E.S.A.,

            I'd would like to contribute this one
            to the links section.

            http://www.thepearlsofwisdom.net/Pearls_Spirits/spiritofprof_Churchian
            ityToday.html

            Might have to type out the link if it
            doesn't get all highlighted.

            Etznab
            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
            <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
            >
            > Etznab,
            > Thanks for all of your comments. Some of the wording in my previous
            > post, specifically, the "Eck Vahana comment" shouldn't have been
            said.
            > I would like to apologize for that. Sometimes it is easy for me to
            get
            > angry. But my anger should be directed at Eckankar, not my fellow
            > message board posters who are actively trying to expose Eckankar
            for
            > what it is too.
            > Jonathan
            >
          • D.R.D.
            Prometheus, I think the link I sent in speaks a lot of the same language I ve seen here and in other places. One might have to make exceptions for the
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
              Prometheus,

              I think the link I sent in speaks
              a lot of the same language I've seen
              here and in other places.

              One might have to make exceptions
              for the "Christian" context or terms,
              but the basic message, beyond all the
              semantics, speaks volumes, IMO.

              Etznab

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Etznab and All,
              > Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as,
              > our former religions were more, in the beginning,
              > than we discovered them to be, later, on down the
              > road. Where does the fault lie? It lies with us, them,
              > and those people (authority figures) and experts we
              > admired and trusted!
              >
              > And, it becomes even more difficult to resist these
              > and more intimidating influences (tactics) when religions
              > control the government (by varying degrees) through
              > laws. Yet, it is still possible to dream.
              >
              > Question: When did Klemp declare ECKankar as
              > a religion publicly? It was when he retitled ECKankar
              > as: The Religion of the Light and Sound of God, but
              > in what year was that done?
              >
              > How many other descriptions of ECKankar were there
              > and what were they?
              >
              > There was: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST);
              > The Path of Total Awareness; ..... What else? I forget!
              >
              > I believe that Twitch's real life Master, Kirpal Singh,
              > once gave a talk titled, "The Ancient Science of Soul."
              >
              > I remember that most changes took place around the
              > mid 1980s. I really didn't like that HK called ECKankar
              > a "religion" since this is what we rejected when searching
              > for a spiritual "path." And, I was confused that Klemp
              > used the term "God" instead of "SUGMAD!" I thought,
              > Is Harold embarrassed to use the word SUGMAD since
              > he was now rubbing elbows with other "religious"
              > leaders? It is easier for him to "fit-in" with the other
              > local preachers and church leaders when he's using
              > the (same) term "GOD" versus using the more accurate
              > and honest term of "SUGMAD!"
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              > etznab wrote:
              >
              > I understand that I could have been more
              > specific.
              >
              > It's the subject matter of "God" & "Heaven",
              > etc., that almost all religions appear to speak
              > for. Can they really speak for every individual
              > & the experience of every individual, though?.
              > Does an organized religion have the power to
              > "legislate" and / or define spiritual experience
              > and the personal experiences of others?
              >
              > Put another way, Does "co-worker with God"
              > equate to "co-worker with one particular organ-
              > ization and the head of same?"
              >
              > I guess it depends on whether one believes
              > that "God" is manifest on Earth in the form of
              > one person. The problem I have with this is that
              > several religions claim representation of "God"
              > and not all of them are so omniscient as same,
              > especially when it comes to world history. More
              > than one company can sell apples and oranges,
              > but they aren't necessarily changing the fruit, but
              > the names and the prices may vary. So, does it
              > change the truth about what apples & oranges
              > truly are just because a company gives them so
              > many brand names and tries to market them?
              >
              > My point is that, in truth, I don't believe there is
              > an organization which can change what is "God"
              > or the "spiritual planes", what they truly are simply
              > by claiming to be the one true representation. But
              > this is my personal opinion. That it's an illusion to
              > abandon personal experience to the point where
              > others become the go-between concerning "God'
              > and "universal truths", etc., as if the individual has
              > to "buy (from them) a stairway to Heaven.
              >
              > Not having one's own land to grow apples and
              > oranges might make one dependent on growers
              > who do, but I believe the place where "God" and
              > "Heaven" exist is the property of every individual
              > regardless of what organized religions and their
              > leaders might appear to claim they own.
              >
              > I didn't always have the same beliefs about the
              > Eckankar organization. Eventually though, I just
              > accepted the conclusion it's not so much better
              > from the Christian religion in which I was raised.
              > I've come to accept Eckankar as just one more
              > form of organized religion. Imperfections and all.
              > I believed it was more perfect once than what it
              > appears to be now, until I did some research &
              > learned about the "trappings" it has in common
              > with all the other forms of organized religion.
              >
              > Etznab
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Jonathan and All, Jonathan, you referred to HK s large Smiley Bob photo below. Was that the same infamous Enzyte Bob? I just saw an En Z yte
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
                Hello Jonathan and All,
                Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo
                below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just
                saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded
                me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"
                and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't
                that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and
                Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It
                seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's
                why they're "really" smiling!

                If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob

                http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte----jail.html

                Prometheus


                Jonathan wrote:

                G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
                I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
                over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
                Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
                room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
                flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
                by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
                at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main
                room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
                inches in size.

                For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
                Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
                overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
                obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.
                His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
                doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
                gray to black.

                Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
                Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
                chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
                very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
                spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
                said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
                happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
                an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
                look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
                hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
                lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
                retouching.
              • etznab@aol.com
                You guys are too funny. I mean that in a good way. I saw the photo :) Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
                  You guys are too funny. I mean that in a
                  good way. I saw the photo :)

                  Etznab

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 6:54 pm
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Enzyte "Smiley Bob" Looks Similar
                  to Smiley Harry!



                  Hello Jonathan and All,

                  Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo

                  below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just

                  saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded

                  me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"

                  and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't

                  that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and

                  Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It

                  seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's

                  why they're "really" smiling!



                  If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob



                  http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte----jail.html



                  Prometheus



                  Jonathan wrote:



                  G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo

                  I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed

                  over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in

                  Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the

                  room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real

                  flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8

                  by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years

                  at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main

                  room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5

                  inches in size.



                  For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley

                  Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously

                  overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were

                  obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.

                  His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It

                  doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from

                  gray to black.



                  Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-

                  Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more

                  chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a

                  very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious

                  spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously

                  said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-

                  happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with

                  an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you

                  look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His

                  hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile

                  lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital

                  retouching.
                • jonathanjohns96
                  Prometheus and Etznab, Yes, that s where the term Smiley Bob came from. I m glad you two appreciate the humor. But like most good comedians I think I may
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 8, 2009
                    Prometheus and Etznab,
                    Yes, that's where the term "Smiley Bob" came from. I'm glad you two
                    appreciate the humor. But like most good comedians I think I may
                    have "stolen my material." I think I saw the term over on the
                    EckankarTruth message board first. But it is absoulutely true that I
                    had already noticed the similarity between Klemp's photo and the guy
                    in the Enzyte commercial.
                    Jonathan

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > You guys are too funny. I mean that in a
                    > good way. I saw the photo :)
                    >
                    > Etznab
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 6:54 pm
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Enzyte "Smiley Bob" Looks
                    Similar
                    > to Smiley Harry!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello Jonathan and All,
                    >
                    > Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo
                    >
                    > below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just
                    >
                    > saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded
                    >
                    > me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"
                    >
                    > and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't
                    >
                    > that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and
                    >
                    > Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It
                    >
                    > seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's
                    >
                    > why they're "really" smiling!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte-
                    ---jail.html
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Jonathan wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
                    >
                    > I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
                    >
                    > over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
                    >
                    > Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
                    >
                    > room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
                    >
                    > flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
                    >
                    > by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
                    >
                    > at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the
                    main
                    >
                    > room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
                    >
                    > inches in size.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
                    >
                    > Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
                    >
                    > overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
                    >
                    > obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more
                    pronounced.
                    >
                    > His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
                    >
                    > doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
                    >
                    > gray to black.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
                    >
                    > Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
                    >
                    > chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
                    >
                    > very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
                    >
                    > spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
                    >
                    > said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
                    >
                    > happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
                    >
                    > an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
                    >
                    > look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
                    >
                    > hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
                    >
                    > lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
                    >
                    > retouching.
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Etznab, Jonathan, and All, I really didn t see the other posts on another site about Smiling Bob. Jonathan s comments about Klemp s smiling photos,
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 8, 2009
                      Hello Etznab, Jonathan, and All,
                      I really didn't see the other posts on
                      another site about "Smiling Bob."

                      Jonathan's comments about Klemp's
                      smiling photos, "smiley Bob" and the
                      fact that this was still in my thoughts
                      when an Enzyte commercial came on
                      TV is what "connected the dots" and
                      "turned on the light bulb" for me.

                      I still wasn't certain if the reference
                      to "Smiley Bob" and Klemp had anything
                      to do with that En"Z"yte commercial.

                      http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Enzyte+Bob&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

                      http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte----jail.ht\
                      ml

                      To see another likeness of HK just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob

                      Prometheus


                      etznab wrote:

                      You guys are too funny. I mean that in a
                      good way. I saw the photo : )

                      Etznab


                      Prometheus wrote:

                      Hello Jonathan and All,

                      Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo

                      below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just

                      saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded

                      me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"

                      and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't

                      that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and

                      Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It

                      seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's

                      why they're "really" smiling!



                      If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob



                      http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte----jail.ht\
                      ml

                      Prometheus



                      Jonathan wrote:

                      G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo

                      I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed

                      over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in

                      Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the

                      room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real

                      flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8

                      by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years

                      at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main

                      room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5

                      inches in size.



                      For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley

                      Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously

                      overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were

                      obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.

                      His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It

                      doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from

                      gray to black.



                      Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-

                      Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more

                      chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a

                      very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious

                      spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously

                      said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-

                      happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with

                      an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you

                      look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His

                      hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile

                      lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital

                      retouching.
                    • jonathanjohns96
                      Prometheus, In my original post in this thread, yes, I was saying that Harold Klemp s photo with the big, exaggerated, plastic smile reminded me of Smiling
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 9, 2009
                        Prometheus,

                        In my original post in this thread, yes, I was saying that Harold
                        Klemp's photo with the big, exaggerated, plastic smile reminded me
                        of "Smiling Bob" in the Enzyte commercials. I was making a direct
                        comparison of the two.

                        I searched EckankarTruth. I did find a post by Sharon on December 21,
                        2008:

                        ==================
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/message/7095
                        "Hmmmm....you know, in the past I've compared ekult to those ads for
                        products claiming you can increase your bust/penis several inches
                        overnight. Now, those "Smiling Bob" commercials are hilarious, and
                        claim they have millions of satisfied customers - but where's the
                        *real* proof? Any scientific studies?" [Sharon]
                        ==================

                        Although she mentions "Smiling Bob," she doesn't specifically compare
                        Harold's photo to Smiling Bob in the Enzyte commercial.

                        Maybe I did make that part up. Oh well, I guess I may go down in
                        history for something after all. I'm not sure why I thought I saw it
                        somewhere else.

                        btw, it appears that people refer to the guy in the Enzyte commercial
                        as "Smiling Bob," not my version "Smiley Bob." Even Wikipedia
                        mentions "Similin' Bob."

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzyte
                        "Enzyte is widely advertised on US television as "the once daily
                        tablet for natural male enhancement". The commercials feature a
                        character known as "Smilin' Bob", who always wears a smile that is
                        implied to be caused by the enhancing effects of Enzyte; these
                        advertisements feature double entendres."

                        Jonathan


                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Etznab, Jonathan, and All,
                        > I really didn't see the other posts on
                        > another site about "Smiling Bob."
                        >
                        > Jonathan's comments about Klemp's
                        > smiling photos, "smiley Bob" and the
                        > fact that this was still in my thoughts
                        > when an Enzyte commercial came on
                        > TV is what "connected the dots" and
                        > "turned on the light bulb" for me.
                        >
                        > I still wasn't certain if the reference
                        > to "Smiley Bob" and Klemp had anything
                        > to do with that En"Z"yte commercial.
                        >
                        > http://www.google.com/search?
                        hl=en&q=Enzyte+Bob&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
                        >
                        >
                        http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte-
                        ---jail.ht\
                        > ml
                        >
                        > To see another likeness of HK just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > etznab wrote:
                        >
                        > You guys are too funny. I mean that in a
                        > good way. I saw the photo : )
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                        >
                        > Prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Jonathan and All,
                        >
                        > Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo
                        >
                        > below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just
                        >
                        > saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded
                        >
                        > me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"
                        >
                        > and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't
                        >
                        > that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and
                        >
                        > Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It
                        >
                        > seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's
                        >
                        > why they're "really" smiling!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte-
                        ---jail.ht\
                        > ml
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Jonathan wrote:
                        >
                        > G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
                        >
                        > I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
                        >
                        > over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
                        >
                        > Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
                        >
                        > room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
                        >
                        > flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
                        >
                        > by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
                        >
                        > at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the
                        main
                        >
                        > room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
                        >
                        > inches in size.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
                        >
                        > Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
                        >
                        > overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
                        >
                        > obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more
                        pronounced.
                        >
                        > His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
                        >
                        > doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
                        >
                        > gray to black.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
                        >
                        > Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
                        >
                        > chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
                        >
                        > very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
                        >
                        > spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
                        >
                        > said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
                        >
                        > happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
                        >
                        > an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
                        >
                        > look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
                        >
                        > hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
                        >
                        > lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
                        >
                        > retouching.
                        >
                      • jonathanjohns96
                        All, I m resurrecting a thread that I started about a month ago on February 5, 2009. It was my first post explaining what I call The Madison Avenue Approach
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 3, 2009
                          All,

                          I'm resurrecting a thread that I started about a month ago on February 5, 2009. It was my first post explaining what I call "The Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar." By this I mean the use of slick marketing to promote Eckankar. In that original post I detailed eight subcategories which I labeled A through H. About two weeks ago I thought up one more example of marketing which would be subcategory I.

                          I. Remember the time Harold Klemp told a story about the little girl at the playground who taught her friend the HU? This was a long time ago, perhaps more than ten years ago. At any rate, the little girl, I believe she was six years old, taught her little friend the HU. And I believe Klemp indicated that there was some sort of upliftment or beneficial effect on the other child.

                          Klemp's use of this story kept bothering me and about two weeks ago I finally figured out what was going on. In my opinion, the HU is actually a very powerful spiritual technique. It is not child's play. I I would go so far as to say that it messes a lot of people up by throwing them off balance especially if they overdo it. It is very powerful at opening the upper chakras and this can cause problems for some people. But perhaps even more importantly, I think a lot of Westerners have an adversion to it because it seems like something from an Eastern religion.

                          What's Eckankar to do? Why tell a story about a six year old girl teaching the HU to her little friend. What is actually happeneing with this story is this. Children respresent innocence. And so if the HU is so innocent that a little girl can teach it to one of her friends, how can anyone dare view the HU as potentially dangerous or as something to be at all suspicious about? So Klemp's use of this story is merely a clever marketing ploy. And it uses innocent children to accomplish this goal!

                          Let me give you another example. Let's say a big drug company is selling a dangerous drug. How could they fool their target audience by portraying this drug as harmless? Why make a television commercial, talk about the drug and its supposed benefits, but have the video showing a little girl dancing along in a field picking flowers or flying a kite. Sure, the video has nothing to with the drug, but the true purpose of the video is quite clear. This is actually "Advertising 101." It's something that even someone with the most basic knowledge of advertising experience could think up.

                          Those of you who have followed my posts know that after this original "Madison Avenue" post I related a story in Klemp's new (2008) book "HU, The Most Beautiful Prayer" about a girl named Heidi. She used the HU to help heal a little boy. So this is another example of this. If little children are doing it, what can be wrong with it? What can be dangerous about it?

                          It's all just another shameless example of how Eckankar uses marketing to fool people. And trust me, a lot of people ARE fooled because the average person does not possess the experience in life to see through these things. And how can a corporation like Eckankar do anything more shameful than this? To use innocent children to promote their religion?

                          Jonathan
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Jonathan and All, Klemp changes the rules as he sees fit. At one time these charged words like HU and ECK were kept from the general public because
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
                            Hello Jonathan and All,
                            Klemp changes the rules as he sees fit.
                            At one time these "charged words" like
                            HU and ECK were kept from the general
                            public because they could harm people
                            by creating an imbalance that would
                            have negative effects upon them.

                            Thus, only "initiated" members of
                            Eckankar were instructed on how to
                            use these "charged words," and were
                            "protected" from harm by the master.
                            However, now that I think of it a
                            "Charge" is either negative or positive
                            in order to have an effect. Therefore,
                            using a "charged word" seems like it
                            could be used for either Black or White
                            Magic. This is why they were kept
                            hidden from the general public.

                            It was kind of like "sharing" one's
                            inner spiritual experiences with the
                            master. Eckists were told Not to Share
                            these because some Eckists didn't
                            have inner experiences and this sharing
                            could make them jealous or feel ashamed
                            that they weren't making progress.

                            And, some people would pick apart
                            the experience or reinterpret it making
                            the one who had it feel more confused
                            or that their interpretation of it was
                            inaccurate or that the dream of the
                            Astral Plane. It was like "casting
                            your pearls before swine." Yet, Klemp
                            changed this policy as well! And, he
                            did this as a promotion method.

                            I wonder how many people (non-Eckists)
                            are instructed Not to "direct" the HU,
                            and what that means. Now, Klemp is
                            saying that to HU is to pray. I'm not
                            so sure that Eckankar will be received
                            as well, in libraries especially, to give
                            intros. First, Klemp redefines Eckankar
                            as a Religion of God and now the HU
                            becomes a Prayer! True, there's a lot
                            of other religious crap like Hierarchies
                            and Worship Services etc., but it really
                            seems to me that Klemp is digressing
                            back to his Lutheran roots, and he's
                            taking others with him!

                            One more thing. I'm thinking that
                            when ECKists are being "neutral" and
                            are doing that Sunday Morning Seminar
                            HU Chant/Song that Klemp is backstage
                            "directing" it for his own purposes!

                            Prometheus

                            jonathan wrote:
                            All,

                            I'm resurrecting a thread that I started about a month ago on February 5, 2009.
                            It was my first post explaining what I call "The Madison Avenue Approach to
                            Eckankar." By this I mean the use of slick marketing to promote Eckankar. In
                            that original post I detailed eight subcategories which I labeled A through H.
                            About two weeks ago I thought up one more example of marketing which would be
                            subcategory I.

                            I. Remember the time Harold Klemp told a story about the little girl at the
                            playground who taught her friend the HU? This was a long time ago, perhaps more
                            than ten years ago. At any rate, the little girl, I believe she was six years
                            old, taught her little friend the HU. And I believe Klemp indicated that there
                            was some sort of upliftment or beneficial effect on the other child.

                            Klemp's use of this story kept bothering me and about two weeks ago I finally
                            figured out what was going on. In my opinion, the HU is actually a very powerful
                            spiritual technique. It is not child's play. I I would go so far as to say that
                            it messes a lot of people up by throwing them off balance especially if they
                            overdo it. It is very powerful at opening the upper chakras and this can cause
                            problems for some people. But perhaps even more importantly, I think a lot of
                            Westerners have an adversion to it because it seems like something from an
                            Eastern religion.

                            What's Eckankar to do? Why tell a story about a six year old girl teaching the
                            HU to her little friend. What is actually happeneing with this story is this.
                            Children respresent innocence. And so if the HU is so innocent that a little
                            girl can teach it to one of her friends, how can anyone dare view the HU as
                            potentially dangerous or as something to be at all suspicious about? So Klemp's
                            use of this story is merely a clever marketing ploy. And it uses innocent
                            children to accomplish this goal!

                            Let me give you another example. Let's say a big drug company is selling a
                            dangerous drug. How could they fool their target audience by portraying this
                            drug as harmless? Why make a television commercial, talk about the drug and its
                            supposed benefits, but have the video showing a little girl dancing along in a
                            field picking flowers or flying a kite. Sure, the video has nothing to with the
                            drug, but the true purpose of the video is quite clear. This is actually
                            "Advertising 101." It's something that even someone with the most basic
                            knowledge of advertising experience could think up.

                            Those of you who have followed my posts know that after this original "Madison
                            Avenue" post I related a story in Klemp's new (2008) book "HU, The Most
                            Beautiful Prayer" about a girl named Heidi. She used the HU to help heal a
                            little boy. So this is another example of this. If little children are doing it,
                            what can be wrong with it? What can be dangerous about it?

                            It's all just another shameless example of how Eckankar uses marketing to fool
                            people. And trust me, a lot of people ARE fooled because the average person does
                            not possess the experience in life to see through these things. And how can a
                            corporation like Eckankar do anything more shameful than this? To use innocent
                            children to promote their religion?

                            Jonathan
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