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Re: Promotion of Eckankar Part 2 of 3 Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar

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  • jonathanjohns96
    Etznab, Thanks for all of your comments. Some of the wording in my previous post, specifically, the Eck Vahana comment shouldn t have been said. I would like
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 5, 2009
      Etznab,
      Thanks for all of your comments. Some of the wording in my previous
      post, specifically, the "Eck Vahana comment" shouldn't have been said.
      I would like to apologize for that. Sometimes it is easy for me to get
      angry. But my anger should be directed at Eckankar, not my fellow
      message board posters who are actively trying to expose Eckankar for
      what it is too.
      Jonathan
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Etznab and All, Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as, our former religions were more, in the beginning, than we discovered them to be, later, on
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 5, 2009
        Hello Etznab and All,
        Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as,
        our former religions were more, in the beginning,
        than we discovered them to be, later, on down the
        road. Where does the fault lie? It lies with us, them,
        and those people (authority figures) and experts we
        admired and trusted!

        And, it becomes even more difficult to resist these
        and more intimidating influences (tactics) when religions
        control the government (by varying degrees) through
        laws. Yet, it is still possible to dream.

        Question: When did Klemp declare ECKankar as
        a religion publicly? It was when he retitled ECKankar
        as: The Religion of the Light and Sound of God, but
        in what year was that done?

        How many other descriptions of ECKankar were there
        and what were they?

        There was: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST);
        The Path of Total Awareness; ..... What else? I forget!

        I believe that Twitch's real life Master, Kirpal Singh,
        once gave a talk titled, "The Ancient Science of Soul."

        I remember that most changes took place around the
        mid 1980s. I really didn't like that HK called ECKankar
        a "religion" since this is what we rejected when searching
        for a spiritual "path." And, I was confused that Klemp
        used the term "God" instead of "SUGMAD!" I thought,
        Is Harold embarrassed to use the word SUGMAD since
        he was now rubbing elbows with other "religious"
        leaders? It is easier for him to "fit-in" with the other
        local preachers and church leaders when he's using
        the (same) term "GOD" versus using the more accurate
        and honest term of "SUGMAD!"

        Prometheus



        etznab wrote:

        I understand that I could have been more
        specific.

        It's the subject matter of "God" & "Heaven",
        etc., that almost all religions appear to speak
        for. Can they really speak for every individual
        & the experience of every individual, though?.
        Does an organized religion have the power to
        "legislate" and / or define spiritual experience
        and the personal experiences of others?

        Put another way, Does "co-worker with God"
        equate to "co-worker with one particular organ-
        ization and the head of same?"

        I guess it depends on whether one believes
        that "God" is manifest on Earth in the form of
        one person. The problem I have with this is that
        several religions claim representation of "God"
        and not all of them are so omniscient as same,
        especially when it comes to world history. More
        than one company can sell apples and oranges,
        but they aren't necessarily changing the fruit, but
        the names and the prices may vary. So, does it
        change the truth about what apples & oranges
        truly are just because a company gives them so
        many brand names and tries to market them?

        My point is that, in truth, I don't believe there is
        an organization which can change what is "God"
        or the "spiritual planes", what they truly are simply
        by claiming to be the one true representation. But
        this is my personal opinion. That it's an illusion to
        abandon personal experience to the point where
        others become the go-between concerning "God'
        and "universal truths", etc., as if the individual has
        to "buy (from them) a stairway to Heaven.

        Not having one's own land to grow apples and
        oranges might make one dependent on growers
        who do, but I believe the place where "God" and
        "Heaven" exist is the property of every individual
        regardless of what organized religions and their
        leaders might appear to claim they own.

        I didn't always have the same beliefs about the
        Eckankar organization. Eventually though, I just
        accepted the conclusion it's not so much better
        from the Christian religion in which I was raised.
        I've come to accept Eckankar as just one more
        form of organized religion. Imperfections and all.
        I believed it was more perfect once than what it
        appears to be now, until I did some research &
        learned about the "trappings" it has in common
        with all the other forms of organized religion.

        Etznab
      • Jonathan Johns
        Prometheus,   I have a copy of Your Right To Know by Darwin Gross (Copyright 1979).   ECK and ECKANKAR are the only trademarks listed on page ii.   The
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 5, 2009
          Prometheus,
           
          I have a copy of "Your Right To Know" by Darwin Gross (Copyright 1979).
           
          ECK and ECKANKAR are the only trademarks listed on page ii.
           
          The Introduction is by Bernadine Burlin who I believe was Darwin's personal secretary. On page III of the Introduction she writes "Eckankar, A Way Of Life, was brought to the waiting world by Sri Paul Twitchell, in 1965."
           
          So I believe that "Eckankar, A Way Of Life" was the phrase used in 1979. I am virtually certain that Paul Twitchell used "Eckankar, The Science of Soul Travel."
           
          When I joined in 1979 I definitely did not see Eckankar as a religion. As you stated, that is one of the things that attracted me to it.
           
          However, on page 2 of "Your Right To Know" one paragraph starts out"ECKANKAR is not a new cult,but the oldest religious teaching in all the world."
           
          But I still say that Eckankar as a religion was not emphasized in 1979. This may very well be the only reference to Eckankar as a religion in the entire book.
           
          At some point I believe Eckankar came up with "Eckankar, Religion of the Light and Sound." That may have been when it happened.
           
          Update: Page 149 of "Your Right To Know" in the "questions" section: "The message of ECK can never be repeated too often, for as a Way of Life, a very Sacred Way of Life, it has proven to be a path millions have hungered for, for many lifetimes."
           
          Jonathan


          --- On Fri, 2/6/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Promotion of Eckankar Part 2 of 3 Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 2:48 AM

          Hello Etznab and All,
          Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as,
          our former religions were more, in the beginning,
          than we discovered them to be, later, on down the
          road. Where does the fault lie? It lies with us, them,
          and those people (authority figures) and experts we
          admired and trusted!

          And, it becomes even more difficult to resist these
          and more intimidating influences (tactics) when religions
          control the government (by varying degrees) through
          laws. Yet, it is still possible to dream.

          Question: When did Klemp declare ECKankar as
          a religion publicly? It was when he retitled ECKankar
          as: The Religion of the Light and Sound of God, but
          in what year was that done?

          How many other descriptions of ECKankar were there
          and what were they?

          There was: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST);
          The Path of Total Awareness; ..... What else? I forget!

          I believe that Twitch's real life Master, Kirpal Singh,
          once gave a talk titled, "The Ancient Science of Soul."

          I remember that most changes took place around the
          mid 1980s. I really didn't like that HK called ECKankar
          a "religion" since this is what we rejected when searching
          for a spiritual "path." And, I was confused that Klemp
          used the term "God" instead of "SUGMAD!" I thought,
          Is Harold embarrassed to use the word SUGMAD since
          he was now rubbing elbows with other "religious"
          leaders? It is easier for him to "fit-in" with the other
          local preachers and church leaders when he's using
          the (same) term "GOD" versus using the more accurate
          and honest term of "SUGMAD!"

          Prometheus

          etznab wrote:

          I understand that I could have been more
          specific.

          It's the subject matter of "God" & "Heaven",
          etc., that almost all religions appear to speak
          for. Can they really speak for every individual
          & the experience of every individual, though?.
          Does an organized religion have the power to
          "legislate" and / or define spiritual experience
          and the personal experiences of others?

          Put another way, Does "co-worker with God"
          equate to "co-worker with one particular organ-
          ization and the head of same?"

          I guess it depends on whether one believes
          that "God" is manifest on Earth in the form of
          one person. The problem I have with this is that
          several religions claim representation of "God"
          and not all of them are so omniscient as same,
          especially when it comes to world history. More
          than one company can sell apples and oranges,
          but they aren't necessarily changing the fruit, but
          the names and the prices may vary. So, does it
          change the truth about what apples & oranges
          truly are just because a company gives them so
          many brand names and tries to market them?

          My point is that, in truth, I don't believe there is
          an organization which can change what is "God"
          or the "spiritual planes", what they truly are simply
          by claiming to be the one true representation. But
          this is my personal opinion. That it's an illusion to
          abandon personal experience to the point where
          others become the go-between concerning "God'
          and "universal truths", etc., as if the individual has
          to "buy (from them) a stairway to Heaven.

          Not having one's own land to grow apples and
          oranges might make one dependent on growers
          who do, but I believe the place where "God" and
          "Heaven" exist is the property of every individual
          regardless of what organized religions and their
          leaders might appear to claim they own.

          I didn't always have the same beliefs about the
          Eckankar organization. Eventually though, I just
          accepted the conclusion it's not so much better
          from the Christian religion in which I was raised.
          I've come to accept Eckankar as just one more
          form of organized religion. Imperfections and all.
          I believed it was more perfect once than what it
          appears to be now, until I did some research &
          learned about the "trappings" it has in common
          with all the other forms of organized religion.

          Etznab


        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan and All, Actually, in his Square Peg article Twitch discussed making his new creation of Eckankar into a religion. This was probably around
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 6, 2009
            Hello Jonathan and All,
            Actually, in his "Square Peg" article Twitch
            discussed making his new creation of "Eckankar"
            into a religion. This was probably around the
            time Jack Jarvis wrote his other articles on
            Twitchell. One of the other articles by Jarvis
            (posted here), is where PT derides women and
            Negroes, and it was printed in July of 1963.

            http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/scanindexsubAcss.asp?indexID=153

            This is interesting because Twitch, also,
            stated (in another article) that he would
            never make Eckankar into a "Tax-Exempt"
            religion/org because he felt that he should
            pay taxes just like the man in the street. I'll
            have to look for that post, but I gave that quote
            and source not too long ago. Anyway I know
            he used the term "Tax-Exempt," but PT might
            not have said religion. I think Eckankar did
            start as a Non-Profit by being listed as an
            "Educational" org versus Religion. TM was
            listed as a Non-Profit Educational org. and
            Not as a Religion, but that was to hide it as
            a religion to the Western student (chela).

            Yes, I knew 8th Initiate BB. She was very protective
            of Darwin's privacy and very loyal... unlike the others.
            So, it seems like we have these descriptions of PT's
            creation. I listed two under Darwin, but I'm not
            certain if he was responsible for both. I forget
            which one was still used by Klemp until he changed
            it around the mid to late 1980s.

            PT: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST)

            DG: The Path of Total Awareness
            Eckankar, A Way of Life

            HK: Eckankar, Religion of the Light and Sound of God

            Prometheus


            jonathan wrote:
            >
            > Prometheus,
            >  
            I have a copy of "Your Right To Know" by Darwin Gross (Copyright 1979).
            >  
            > ECK and ECKANKAR are the only trademarks listed on page ii.
            >  
            > The Introduction is by Bernadine Burlin who I believe was Darwin's
            personal secretary. On page III of the Introduction she writes "Eckankar,
            A Way Of Life, was brought to the waiting world by Sri Paul Twitchell,
            in 1965."
            >  
            > So I believe that "Eckankar, A Way Of Life" was the phrase used
            in 1979. I am virtually certain that Paul Twitchell used "Eckankar,
            The Science of Soul Travel."
            >  
            > When I joined in 1979 I definitely did not see Eckankar as a religion.
            As you stated, that is one of the things that attracted me to it.
            >  
            > However, on page 2 of "Your Right To Know" one paragraph
            starts out"ECKANKAR is not a new cult,but the oldest religious
            teaching in all the world."
            >  
            > But I still say that Eckankar as a religion was not emphasized
            in 1979. This may very well be the only reference to Eckankar as
            a religion in the entire book.
            >  
            > At some point I believe Eckankar came up with "Eckankar,
            Religion of the Light and Sound." That may have been when
            it happened.
            >  
            > Update: Page 149 of "Your Right To Know" in the "questions"
            section: "The message of ECK can never be repeated too often,
            for as a Way of Life, a very Sacred Way of Life, it has proven to be
            a path millions have hungered for, for many lifetimes."
            >  
            > Jonathan
            >
            >

            Prometheus wrote:
            > Hello Etznab and All,
            > Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as,
            > our former religions were more, in the beginning,
            > than we discovered them to be, later, on down the
            > road. Where does the fault lie? It lies with us, them,
            > and those people (authority figures) and experts we
            > admired and trusted!
            >
            > And, it becomes even more difficult to resist these
            > and more intimidating influences (tactics) when religions
            > control the government (by varying degrees) through
            > laws. Yet, it is still possible to dream.
            >
            > Question: When did Klemp declare ECKankar as
            > a religion publicly? It was when he retitled ECKankar
            > as: The Religion of the Light and Sound of God, but
            > in what year was that done?
            >
            > How many other descriptions of ECKankar were there
            > and what were they?
            >
            > There was: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST);
            > The Path of Total Awareness; ..... What else? I forget!
            >
            > I believe that Twitch's real life Master, Kirpal Singh,
            > once gave a talk titled, "The Ancient Science of Soul."
            >
            > I remember that most changes took place around the
            > mid 1980s. I really didn't like that HK called ECKankar
            > a "religion" since this is what we rejected when searching
            > for a spiritual "path." And, I was confused that Klemp
            > used the term "God" instead of "SUGMAD!" I thought,
            > Is Harold embarrassed to use the word SUGMAD since
            > he was now rubbing elbows with other "religious"
            > leaders? It is easier for him to "fit-in" with the other
            > local preachers and church leaders when he's using
            > the (same) term "GOD" versus using the more accurate
            > and honest term of "SUGMAD!"
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > etznab wrote:
            >
            > I understand that I could have been more
            > specific.
            >
            > It's the subject matter of "God" & "Heaven",
            > etc., that almost all religions appear to speak
            > for. Can they really speak for every individual
            > & the experience of every individual, though?.
            > Does an organized religion have the power to
            > "legislate" and / or define spiritual experience
            > and the personal experiences of others?
            >
            > Put another way, Does "co-worker with God"
            > equate to "co-worker with one particular organ-
            > ization and the head of same?"
            >
            > I guess it depends on whether one believes
            > that "God" is manifest on Earth in the form of
            > one person. The problem I have with this is that
            > several religions claim representation of "God"
            > and not all of them are so omniscient as same,
            > especially when it comes to world history. More
            > than one company can sell apples and oranges,
            > but they aren't necessarily changing the fruit, but
            > the names and the prices may vary. So, does it
            > change the truth about what apples & oranges
            > truly are just because a company gives them so
            > many brand names and tries to market them?
            >
            > My point is that, in truth, I don't believe there is
            > an organization which can change what is "God"
            > or the "spiritual planes", what they truly are simply
            > by claiming to be the one true representation. But
            > this is my personal opinion. That it's an illusion to
            > abandon personal experience to the point where
            > others become the go-between concerning "God'
            > and "universal truths", etc., as if the individual has
            > to "buy (from them) a stairway to Heaven.
            >
            > Not having one's own land to grow apples and
            > oranges might make one dependent on growers
            > who do, but I believe the place where "God" and
            > "Heaven" exist is the property of every individual
            > regardless of what organized religions and their
            > leaders might appear to claim they own.
            >
            > I didn't always have the same beliefs about the
            > Eckankar organization. Eventually though, I just
            > accepted the conclusion it's not so much better
            > from the Christian religion in which I was raised.
            > I've come to accept Eckankar as just one more
            > form of organized religion. Imperfections and all.
            > I believed it was more perfect once than what it
            > appears to be now, until I did some research &
            > learned about the "trappings" it has in common
            > with all the other forms of organized religion.
            >
            > Etznab
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Jonathan and All, This is a very good summary. I thought I d add P.T.s original descriptions of the EK Masters that tell of high turbans and long
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
              Hello Jonathan and All,
              This is a very good summary. I thought I'd
              add P.T.s original descriptions of the EK Masters
              that tell of "high turbans" and "long beards."

              BTW- The main difference between Sikhs and
              Hindus is that the Sikhs rejected the caste system
              that is still practiced by Hindus even today!

              Further down I'd like to make a few more comments
              about ECK Centers, etc.

              Prometheus

              From post #4275:

              Hello All,
              To sum it up, it seems Klemp got it wrong
              again! PT states that YAUBL "looks very old"
              and "he doesn't walk upright" while FUBBI
              "wears a High Turban," and is "SIX FEET
              THREE" and that's without the "high turban!"


              Descriptions of ECK Masters

              From "Difficulties Of Becoming The
              Living ECK Master" pages 109-113.

              PT: "Now, Sudar Singh was a pupil
              of Rebazar Tarzs, and Rebazar Tarzs
              was a pupil of Fubbi Quantz, and
              Fubbi Quantz was a pupil or a chela
              of Yaubl Sacabi." [pg. 111]

              **********************YAUBL SACABI**********************

              YAUBL Sacabi -- According to ________YAUBL Sacabi -- According to
              PT in "Difficulties:"_______________HK in The ECKankar LexiCON:

              "FIVE FEET EIGHT or TEN"_________According to the picture he's
              "sort of a square figure"_____________bald and looks 40-50 years
              "he speaks wit great dignity"_________Also, HK claims he was alive
              _______________________________in "2000-1700 B.C." which
              "old... I would say, 2000-3000 ______means he's 3700-4000 years
              years"__________________________old Not "2000-3000 years" old.
              "He lives in a place called Agam______HK says he's not "very old"
              Des"___________________________looking, thus, he's not "bent
              ________________________________over" as PT stated.

              [Note: Agam Des/Lok is the 9th Plane]

              "he is the leader of this group________Whose right? PT or HK?
              who are the God-Eaters."_______________
              "His FACE is of a LIGHT COLOR"____*YAUBL Sacabi -- According to
              "he has very PALE BLUE EYES"_______HK in "Those Wonderful ECK
              "He looks very ascetic"_____________Masters:"

              "he LOOKS VERY OLD"_____________"A strong nose, thick neck,
              "he Doesn't WALK UPRIGHT...________well-developed muscles in
              he WALKS VERY SLOWLY"____________arms and chest outline a
              "a very high, well, I don't____________capable, rugged appearance...
              call it A HIGH VOICE, but I'd________bald head looks a bit like
              say a medium voice. It speaks________a brass dome [p.145]...
              in a higher pitch than most _________a robust man of about average
              ______________________________height, a sturdy specimen...
              voices do... he has very long ________[p. 133] a short maroon robe
              slender hands "he wears a sort_______and sturdy sandals with
              of a sandal.. a TOGA TYPE of_________wide straps." [p. 148]
              GOWN."

              [PT never mentions, here, that Yaubl was BALD]

              "he likes to sit in a corner at what
              we would call, a public market."
              "He sometimes goes into the temple
              and talks from a podium"
              "There's a light that shines over him
              as if an electrical bulb has been put
              inside of him and turned on and the
              effervescence of the light just shines
              out from him."

              FYI- Here's some comments from page 151 in "Those Wonderful
              ECK Masters." Klemp is telling a story where a chela has a "vision"
              and met an entity "the Indian guide was Yaubl Sacabi in DISGUISE."
              Next, she meets Yaubl in a class he's teaching where he's "telling
              of the enormous DANGER of WHITE MAGIC, even of dabbling in
              it. [How about Black Magic is it as dangerous? BTW- "Disguising"
              oneself as an "Indian guide" isn't dabbling in White Magic?] Yaubl
              continues, "He pointed out that when someone thinks he's above
              another, it is a kind of White Magic, too, and has consequences."
              [Thus, the EK Spiritual Hierarchy and, especially, the RESA
              Hierarchy with the initiation levels and Positions of Power above
              others is a form of White Magic... what are the consequences?]

              **********************FUBBI QUANTZ*************************

              FUBBI Quantz -- According to PT_____FUBBI Quantz -- According to
              in "Difficulties:"______________________HK in The ECKankar Lexicon:

              "a rather SERIOUS PERSONALITY"_____Fubbi's been around since "500 B.C."
              "there are times when he's a_________which means he's 2500 years old,
              humorous sort of a person."__________and Not 1000 years old as PT said!
              "He wears a HIGH TURBAN"_________There's No "Turban" and certainly not
              "he wears a LONG WHITE ROBE."______a "high" one! And No, he was not the
              "he doesn't do much appearing_______"spiritual guide" for Columbus nor
              to people"_________________________did they search for "protein" in order
              "He's VERY BUSY there in the__________to revitalize depleted nutrition for
              teachings of The Shariyat-Ki-_________Europeans. So who's right again...
              Sugmad" "He is awfully busy in________PT or HK? Oops! I forgot! Klemp
              several ways"he has an age which______copied the descriptions from PT's
              is somewhat older than most of the____ECKankar Dictionary!
              ages."
              "I would say the man... is close to
              1,000 years of age."

              "He came back as a co-worker in____[What's with this? He came back
              the early days, maybe 500-600______again after a long vacation on
              years ago."________________________the Inner Planes or what?]

              "He is VERY TALL, he's about_________[Does Fubbi look tall? Were
              SIX FEET THREE"__________________people that tall back in those
              "very swarthy, has long hands,___________days? Maybe Goliath was that
              and very pointed feet"________________tall, but I'd say PT was making
              "wears a LONG WHITE ROBE"__________it all up! Hey! Maybe that
              "a VERY SERIOUS sort of a man."______"High Turban" made him 6'3"!]

              "He will joke and laugh at times"_____*Fubbi Quantz According to HK in
              "You feel a lightness about him that____"Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
              you do around Sudar Singh."
              "Fubbi Quantz has a DEEP ROLLING____"a tall, elderly man with white hair
              VOICE."____________________________and beard, and a gentle smile...
              "He looks upon everything in life_______a WHITE ROBE that reaches WELL
              VERY SERIOUSLY"____________________BELOW HIS KNEES... PT once
              "he has a very strong mental trait"_______described him as having a
              "he takes all of his duties_______________LATERN JAW."
              EXCEEDINGLY SERIOUS."_____________"long white hair" [pg. 29] "his
              _________________________________most striking feature was a
              _________________________________LONG WHITE BEARD." [pg. 41]


              NOTE: On page 36 of TWEM Klemp
              tells a story of an ECKist who, at first,
              confused FUBBI with JESUS. I thought
              it was GOPAL DAS that they confused
              with JESUS!


              BTW- In the 2000 copyright of the
              combined printing of the Shariyats
              Books 1&2 on page X is the following:

              "BOOK ONE One is the first section of
              these works, which was DICTATED by
              FUBBI QUANTZ, the great ECK Master
              who serves at the Katsupari Monastery
              in northern Tibet."

              "BOOK TWO, is the second section of
              these works of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
              which was DICTATED by YAUBL SACABI,
              the great ECK Master who serves at the
              Gare-Hira Temple of Golden Wisdom at
              AGAM DES in the Hindu Kush mountains."

              Question: Why is Yaubl the guardian of
              the second (Astral) plane Book Two of
              the Shariyat when he resides on Agam
              Des, the 9th Plane? And Why is Gopal
              Das the guardian of the "fourth book"
              of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad on the "Astral
              Plane." [Shariyat 2, CH. 9] Shouldn't the
              "fourth book" be on the Mental Plane?
              And, why hasn't Gopal "dictated" the
              "fourth book" to Klemp?

              Here are some interesting tidbits I found
              in the Shariyat 2, CH. 4:

              "Fubbi Quantz, Rebazar Tarzs, and other
              ECK Masters, all having attained a high
              degree of consciousness well beyond the
              level of man, appear differently to man."

              Is that a disclaimer, or another Catch-22?

              "The state of the ECK Master is that he must
              be as perfect as the ECK or that which is known
              as the Sugmad... His human body, through which
              he operates, is in a state of health and is retained
              as long as his position is necessary within this
              physical world, several hundred years if necessary.
              Spiritually, the Living ECK Master lives in a state
              of God Consciousness for twenty-four hours a
              day. Also he has developed, but doesn't seek,
              what is known as the various siddhis powers,
              due to his high state of evolution."

              BTW- In Klemp's Lexicon he defines "siddhis" as:
              "Psychic powers, spiritual powers, supernormal
              powers, prophecy, healing, etc."

              Prometheus

              jonathan wrote:
              >
              Promotion of Eckankar - Part 2 of 3 - The Madison Avenue
              Approach to Eckankar
              >
              > A long time ago (20 years?) I listened to a tape by Harold Klemp. In
              > this tape he tells the story of how Eckankar had hired an advertising
              > firm to give Eckankar advice on how to promote Eckankar. He joked
              > around about the advice they received such as "Send this Rebazar Tarz
              > guy on a road trip around the United States." But if you have been
              > observing Eckankar like I have over the past fifteen years (1994-2008
              > inclusive) you will notice that Eckankar seems to have actually taken
              > a lot of this advertising advice they received seriously. I have
              > coined the term "The Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar"
              > to describe this phenomenon.

              *P: Yes, Klemp got a big laugh from the EK Seminar crowd when he
              mentioned that these PR people wanted to send Rebazar out on the
              road to promote ECKankar. The real laugh was on us! We were actually
              laughing at our own ignorance while Klemp was having an even bigger
              laugh at our gullibility in believing in a "500 year old" Master that has
              never shown himself (to even ECKists) in his physical body in all of these
              years! Amazing!

              > And actually, this phenomenon even goes all the way back to Paul
              > Twitchell who was also concerned about the "image" of Eckankar.
              >
              > A. Paul Twitchell's ''Closely-Cropped Beard Syndrome''
              > Going all the way back to Paul Twitchell there is an interesting
              > observation that I have made. Ever notice how many times the Eck
              > writings mention that the Eck Masters all have "closely-cropped
              > beards?" Did any of these members of Eckankar ever look at a photo
              > of Fubbi Quantz or Lai Tsi? Both of these Eck masters have long beards.
              > On the surface of things, it would seem that Eckankar has some kind
              > of obsession with neatness. Psychologically speaking, that would
              > indicate some type of underlying guilt complex. But no matter... My
              > personal view is that this is part of the current "Madison-Avenue
              > Approach" to promoting Eckankar to the public. In other words, it is
              > part of Eckankar's promotional campaign which wants smartly-dressed,
              > dapper Eck Masters, not sloven ones with ragged or shaggy beards.
              > This actually started with Paul Twitchell when he instituted the "No
              > Turbans Policy" which is my next topic.

              *P: There is a dress code for ECK Leaders. Apparently, only "EK Masters"
              can look like bums!

              > B. Paul Twitchell's ''No Turbans Policy''
              > Are Eck masters allowed to wear turbans? It is something that members
              > of Eckankar need to ask themselves. In order to clarify why this is
              > true I need to ask everyone the following question: "Do you know what
              > the surname "Singh" means? And what that name implies? I will answer
              > this question by relating a short conversation that I had with a
              > native of North India.

              *P: What's even more strange is the HIGH TURBAN like the one FUBBI
              wears (according to Twitchell).

              > A few weeks ago I was talking to a lady from North India. I asked her
              > to clarify Punjabi, Sikhs, and the surname Singh. She told me that
              > Punjabi Province is 55% Hindus, and 45% Sikhs. They are similar
              > religions, but Hindus and Sikhs consider them to be completely
              > different. Sikhism split off from Hinduism about 500 years ago. She
              > said that almost all Sikhs have the surname Singh. The word "Singh"
              > means lion. The name has significance with the history of the
              > religion. Even though she is a Hindu, she knew a lot about Sikhism
              > and explained it all to me, but I forgot what she said. I already
              > knew that virtually all Sikh men in India wear turbans. The one thing
              > I forgot to ask is "What language do the Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab
              > Province speak. Wikipedia informed me that everyone in The Punjab
              > speaks Punjabi, both Hindus and Sikhs.

              *P: Since she was Hindu she probably didn't want to point out
              that she still believes in a caste system (but won't admit to it)
              and that the Sikhs rejected the caste system and that this was
              the main factor for causing this sect (religion) to be created
              in the first place.


              > The point of this is any time that a person reads an Eckankar book
              > and sees the name Singh, you should be picturing a man from North
              > India wearing a turban. You will also know that he is of the Sikh
              > religion. You would also know that he probably speaks Punjabi. I
              > believe you will be correct 95% of the time providing the man is
              > still living in India.

              *P: True. Klemp has modernized and sanitized ECKankar to make
              it more acceptable and this helps to make it more palatable in order
              to swallow all of those lies.

              > So my question to Eckankar is "Why are there no graphical depictions
              > of Eck masters showing them wearing a turban?" My own answer is that
              > Americans, even back in the 1960s when Paul T was first formulating
              > Eckankar, have a stereotypical attitude about men from India who wear
              > a turban. In America, this image is associated with snake charmers
              > and it is obviously meant to be a negative stereotype. So I honestly
              > believe that this is why no one has ever seen a depiction of Sudar
              > Singh or Kirpal Singh in Eckankar's literature. To the subconscious
              > mind of Americans, a man from India wearing a turban is seen as a
              > snake charmer, not a spiritual master.
              >
              > C. "Eckankar looks too much like an Eastern religion" or "Removing
              > the 'strange' words from Eckankar"

              > Over the past ten to fifteen years Eckankar has been systematically
              > de-emphasizing the Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words in Eckankar. For
              > example, replacing "Sugmad" with God. This was recently noted by
              > Prometheus for the January 2009 Newsletter.
              >
              > I believe the main reason for this is because Eckankar wants all of
              > these words out of the Introductory literature because they feel that
              > it is scaring off newcomers. I see Eckankar eventually removing
              > virtually all of them from all of the Intro material. But Eckankar
              > will leave them in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad in order to add an air of
              > mysteriousness to the writings. Ford Johnson discussed this in his
              > book. Cultwatchers in general have pointed this out too.
              >
              > By the way, I don't think Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words are
              > strange, but let's face it, the majority of Americans probably do. As
              > a sidelight. Regarding the word "Eck," a native Hindi speaker from
              > Northern India told me that "Ek" is more the spelling in the Punjabi
              > language, whereas "Ik" (pronounced like the English word "ache") is
              > more the spelling in the Hindi language. So "Ek" should really be
              > considered a Punjabi word. Both Hindi and Punjabi are Northern Indian
              > languages.

              *P: Well, the word change, to that of a "common language," is merely
              to Westernize ECKankar even more so! Klemp, and most Americans,
              as well as, non-Sikhs and non-Hindus are more comfortable by not
              using foreign religious terminology for use with their own religion.
              Yet, ECKists should all know that Sikhism and Hinduism are the true
              roots of ECKankar. Klemp continues to hide the fact that Twitch created
              ECKankar in the images of Ruhani Satsang and Radhasoami.

              > D. All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be on glossy paper
              >
              > All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be full color on
              > glossy paper. Why? It's all about appearances. Putting a first class
              > image forward. In a way I have no problem with that, but they could
              > be putting their resources toward a much more noble, spiritual goal
              > such as removing the many fear-based curses found in their writings.
              > Glossy paper wins out over that.

              *P: There's also the Style Sheet Guidelines that tell local ECKists
              what is proper and what is not when it comes to printing posters,
              EK newsletters, ads in newspapers, etc. You'd be surprised at how
              many RESAs don't know or follow these and other ESC Guidelines.

              > E. Eck Centers must look nice
              > Ever notice how Eck centers are always in nice, rented, office
              > complexes? They could save a lot of money by buying an old church
              > and using it. The reason they only use only rented, nice office space
              > is because of appearances. It puts forth the "correct" upscale, yuppy-
              > like appearance. They are not going to buy an old, run-down church.

              *P: Local EK areas don't have that much money to buy, restore, and
              maintain buildings, and for phone, gas, electric and insurance. And,
              the local area (city) has to be self-sufficient (not need help from the
              state's Satsang Society) with money, or else, there may end up being
              just one centrally located EK Center for the whole state or country!
              These EK Centers still have to do the Vahana thing and do intros and
              buy materials, rent rooms, rent booths, etc. There has to be other
              monies set aside for these and other things plus a reserve. And, let's
              not forget that all of this money is not theirs or the Satsang Society's!
              All money, assets, and materials were "donated" to and belong to the
              ESC... there is No local or state Satsang Society, or RESA ownership
              of anything. It all belongs to Klemp and Company and HK has the
              last word.

              > F. Eck Spiritual Campus
              > Ever wonder why the new building at the Eck Spiritual Campus was
              > built? I have. And the only reason I can come with is that,
              > basically, it's a visitor center for newcomers touring the Eckankar
              > grounds in Chanhassen. It's just for show. So people visiting
              > Eckankar's grounds can say "Wow, look at all these nice buildings.
              > These people are really upscale." I never heard of any member of
              > Eckankar ever taking a class there. A person on the Internet named
              > Dodie Belamy wrote an essay about Eckankar; she stated that it is
              > used to show visitors around .

              *P: IMO the new ESC building was built in order to shorten the
              drive for most of the staffers working there.. including Joan and
              Peter. I think that the old ESC was in St. Cloud (I visited there once
              in the 1980's for a private tour). Now, most of these ESC higher ups
              live in Eden Prairie. Plus, having everything in the same location
              is convenient. But, I will have to say that the guilted staircase does
              look rather Gauche and is typical of the overspending for appearance
              sake that churches (religions) tend to do to make the building seem
              "Holy" for their weak minded believers. In a way it's also a competition,
              or pissing contest among Preaches/Popes/LEMs and their big fat egos!


              > G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
              > I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
              > over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
              > Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
              > room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
              > flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
              > by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
              > at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main
              > room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
              > inches in size.

              *P: Well, there are, also, Guidelines for EK Centers and "suggestions,"
              with pictures, as to how these centers should be set up. Plus, one
              of Klemp's photos is larger than the others because this 14x17 is
              a special "Donation" photo which means there was a minimum cost
              ($25) but no maximum. At our EK Center I had his HK's placed in
              the center, and higher, than the other ECK Masters since he was their
              boss. We kept the larger Donation Photo on a stand next to some silk
              flowers (sometimes a chela would bring in some freshly cut flowers).
              Since we were required (by Guidelines) to keep the current "official"
              photo displayed we ended up having a few extra older photos in the
              back office where we, also, kept a 5x7 black and white of Twitch.
              However, my opinion is that Klemp hasn't changed his "official"
              photo for years now because he's so vain! Klemp uses the younger
              looking "official" photo in the EK Youth Letter of Light and on The
              Wisdom Notes page and else where!


              > For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
              > Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
              > overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
              > obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.
              > His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
              > doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
              > gray to black.

              *P: This is the older "Official" photo that hasn't been updated. Thus,
              this is why he looks younger. The photo hasn't been touched up, but
              it does show Klemp's vanity with his looks. He was called down for this
              once, long ago, when he switched to contacts instead of eye glasses!
              Soon, he went back to his eye glasses but not before having an "official"
              photo made showing him in a Hawaiian shirt and without glasses!

              On retouch. Of course Klemp has retouches done. IMO the most
              retouches were done recently on those new photos of the ECK Masters
              and this includes Klemp's own photo!


              > Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
              > Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
              > chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
              > very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
              > spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
              > said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
              > happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
              > an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
              > look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
              > hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
              > lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
              > retouching.
              >
              > H. And on a similar subject. Ever notice that sometime in the past
              > five to ten years there was some rule passed at Eckankar Headquarters
              > that every person shown in the Mystic World has to be smiling? I
              > noticed right away when it happened. Once again, it's another example
              > of the new paradigm in Eckankar that I call the "Happy-Happy
              > Syndrome." Portray everyone in Eckankar as smiling and you will
              > attract more members to Eckankar. My opinion is that you will attract
              > superficial people who are easily swayed by slick marketing.

              *P: I think that superficial people will be/are drawn into
              ECKankar due to the Status that initiation rank and titles
              now have. Look at these H.I.s! Are those "spiritual" people
              or actors? True, some are very good at what they do but
              they are very good actors too! This is because they are more
              delusional and live with and in their fantasy world more than
              others. They happily skip along with a basket full of promises
              just like all other religions hand out to their fearful, mindless,
              and dependent followers. I wonder, why do H.I. ECKists still
              think that they need Klemp after 30 plus years. Haven't they
              learned to be on their own and fly with their own wings!
            • D.R.D.
              Jonothan, I think maybe this article expresses some of the ideas I was contemplating a little better. E.S.A., I d would like to contribute this one to the
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
                Jonothan,

                I think maybe this article expresses
                some of the ideas I was contemplating a
                little better.

                E.S.A.,

                I'd would like to contribute this one
                to the links section.

                http://www.thepearlsofwisdom.net/Pearls_Spirits/spiritofprof_Churchian
                ityToday.html

                Might have to type out the link if it
                doesn't get all highlighted.

                Etznab
                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
                <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                >
                > Etznab,
                > Thanks for all of your comments. Some of the wording in my previous
                > post, specifically, the "Eck Vahana comment" shouldn't have been
                said.
                > I would like to apologize for that. Sometimes it is easy for me to
                get
                > angry. But my anger should be directed at Eckankar, not my fellow
                > message board posters who are actively trying to expose Eckankar
                for
                > what it is too.
                > Jonathan
                >
              • D.R.D.
                Prometheus, I think the link I sent in speaks a lot of the same language I ve seen here and in other places. One might have to make exceptions for the
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
                  Prometheus,

                  I think the link I sent in speaks
                  a lot of the same language I've seen
                  here and in other places.

                  One might have to make exceptions
                  for the "Christian" context or terms,
                  but the basic message, beyond all the
                  semantics, speaks volumes, IMO.

                  Etznab

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                  > Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as,
                  > our former religions were more, in the beginning,
                  > than we discovered them to be, later, on down the
                  > road. Where does the fault lie? It lies with us, them,
                  > and those people (authority figures) and experts we
                  > admired and trusted!
                  >
                  > And, it becomes even more difficult to resist these
                  > and more intimidating influences (tactics) when religions
                  > control the government (by varying degrees) through
                  > laws. Yet, it is still possible to dream.
                  >
                  > Question: When did Klemp declare ECKankar as
                  > a religion publicly? It was when he retitled ECKankar
                  > as: The Religion of the Light and Sound of God, but
                  > in what year was that done?
                  >
                  > How many other descriptions of ECKankar were there
                  > and what were they?
                  >
                  > There was: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST);
                  > The Path of Total Awareness; ..... What else? I forget!
                  >
                  > I believe that Twitch's real life Master, Kirpal Singh,
                  > once gave a talk titled, "The Ancient Science of Soul."
                  >
                  > I remember that most changes took place around the
                  > mid 1980s. I really didn't like that HK called ECKankar
                  > a "religion" since this is what we rejected when searching
                  > for a spiritual "path." And, I was confused that Klemp
                  > used the term "God" instead of "SUGMAD!" I thought,
                  > Is Harold embarrassed to use the word SUGMAD since
                  > he was now rubbing elbows with other "religious"
                  > leaders? It is easier for him to "fit-in" with the other
                  > local preachers and church leaders when he's using
                  > the (same) term "GOD" versus using the more accurate
                  > and honest term of "SUGMAD!"
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > etznab wrote:
                  >
                  > I understand that I could have been more
                  > specific.
                  >
                  > It's the subject matter of "God" & "Heaven",
                  > etc., that almost all religions appear to speak
                  > for. Can they really speak for every individual
                  > & the experience of every individual, though?.
                  > Does an organized religion have the power to
                  > "legislate" and / or define spiritual experience
                  > and the personal experiences of others?
                  >
                  > Put another way, Does "co-worker with God"
                  > equate to "co-worker with one particular organ-
                  > ization and the head of same?"
                  >
                  > I guess it depends on whether one believes
                  > that "God" is manifest on Earth in the form of
                  > one person. The problem I have with this is that
                  > several religions claim representation of "God"
                  > and not all of them are so omniscient as same,
                  > especially when it comes to world history. More
                  > than one company can sell apples and oranges,
                  > but they aren't necessarily changing the fruit, but
                  > the names and the prices may vary. So, does it
                  > change the truth about what apples & oranges
                  > truly are just because a company gives them so
                  > many brand names and tries to market them?
                  >
                  > My point is that, in truth, I don't believe there is
                  > an organization which can change what is "God"
                  > or the "spiritual planes", what they truly are simply
                  > by claiming to be the one true representation. But
                  > this is my personal opinion. That it's an illusion to
                  > abandon personal experience to the point where
                  > others become the go-between concerning "God'
                  > and "universal truths", etc., as if the individual has
                  > to "buy (from them) a stairway to Heaven.
                  >
                  > Not having one's own land to grow apples and
                  > oranges might make one dependent on growers
                  > who do, but I believe the place where "God" and
                  > "Heaven" exist is the property of every individual
                  > regardless of what organized religions and their
                  > leaders might appear to claim they own.
                  >
                  > I didn't always have the same beliefs about the
                  > Eckankar organization. Eventually though, I just
                  > accepted the conclusion it's not so much better
                  > from the Christian religion in which I was raised.
                  > I've come to accept Eckankar as just one more
                  > form of organized religion. Imperfections and all.
                  > I believed it was more perfect once than what it
                  > appears to be now, until I did some research &
                  > learned about the "trappings" it has in common
                  > with all the other forms of organized religion.
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Jonathan and All, Jonathan, you referred to HK s large Smiley Bob photo below. Was that the same infamous Enzyte Bob? I just saw an En Z yte
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
                    Hello Jonathan and All,
                    Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo
                    below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just
                    saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded
                    me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"
                    and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't
                    that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and
                    Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It
                    seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's
                    why they're "really" smiling!

                    If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob

                    http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte----jail.html

                    Prometheus


                    Jonathan wrote:

                    G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
                    I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
                    over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
                    Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
                    room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
                    flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
                    by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
                    at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main
                    room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
                    inches in size.

                    For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
                    Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
                    overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
                    obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.
                    His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
                    doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
                    gray to black.

                    Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
                    Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
                    chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
                    very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
                    spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
                    said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
                    happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
                    an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
                    look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
                    hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
                    lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
                    retouching.
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    You guys are too funny. I mean that in a good way. I saw the photo :) Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
                      You guys are too funny. I mean that in a
                      good way. I saw the photo :)

                      Etznab

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 6:54 pm
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Enzyte "Smiley Bob" Looks Similar
                      to Smiley Harry!



                      Hello Jonathan and All,

                      Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo

                      below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just

                      saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded

                      me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"

                      and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't

                      that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and

                      Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It

                      seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's

                      why they're "really" smiling!



                      If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob



                      http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte----jail.html



                      Prometheus



                      Jonathan wrote:



                      G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo

                      I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed

                      over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in

                      Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the

                      room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real

                      flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8

                      by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years

                      at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main

                      room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5

                      inches in size.



                      For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley

                      Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously

                      overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were

                      obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.

                      His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It

                      doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from

                      gray to black.



                      Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-

                      Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more

                      chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a

                      very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious

                      spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously

                      said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-

                      happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with

                      an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you

                      look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His

                      hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile

                      lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital

                      retouching.
                    • jonathanjohns96
                      Prometheus and Etznab, Yes, that s where the term Smiley Bob came from. I m glad you two appreciate the humor. But like most good comedians I think I may
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 8, 2009
                        Prometheus and Etznab,
                        Yes, that's where the term "Smiley Bob" came from. I'm glad you two
                        appreciate the humor. But like most good comedians I think I may
                        have "stolen my material." I think I saw the term over on the
                        EckankarTruth message board first. But it is absoulutely true that I
                        had already noticed the similarity between Klemp's photo and the guy
                        in the Enzyte commercial.
                        Jonathan

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > You guys are too funny. I mean that in a
                        > good way. I saw the photo :)
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 6:54 pm
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Enzyte "Smiley Bob" Looks
                        Similar
                        > to Smiley Harry!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello Jonathan and All,
                        >
                        > Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo
                        >
                        > below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just
                        >
                        > saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded
                        >
                        > me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"
                        >
                        > and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't
                        >
                        > that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and
                        >
                        > Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It
                        >
                        > seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's
                        >
                        > why they're "really" smiling!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte-
                        ---jail.html
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Jonathan wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
                        >
                        > I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
                        >
                        > over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
                        >
                        > Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
                        >
                        > room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
                        >
                        > flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
                        >
                        > by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
                        >
                        > at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the
                        main
                        >
                        > room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
                        >
                        > inches in size.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
                        >
                        > Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
                        >
                        > overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
                        >
                        > obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more
                        pronounced.
                        >
                        > His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
                        >
                        > doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
                        >
                        > gray to black.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
                        >
                        > Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
                        >
                        > chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
                        >
                        > very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
                        >
                        > spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
                        >
                        > said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
                        >
                        > happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
                        >
                        > an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
                        >
                        > look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
                        >
                        > hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
                        >
                        > lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
                        >
                        > retouching.
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Etznab, Jonathan, and All, I really didn t see the other posts on another site about Smiling Bob. Jonathan s comments about Klemp s smiling photos,
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 8, 2009
                          Hello Etznab, Jonathan, and All,
                          I really didn't see the other posts on
                          another site about "Smiling Bob."

                          Jonathan's comments about Klemp's
                          smiling photos, "smiley Bob" and the
                          fact that this was still in my thoughts
                          when an Enzyte commercial came on
                          TV is what "connected the dots" and
                          "turned on the light bulb" for me.

                          I still wasn't certain if the reference
                          to "Smiley Bob" and Klemp had anything
                          to do with that En"Z"yte commercial.

                          http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Enzyte+Bob&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

                          http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte----jail.ht\
                          ml

                          To see another likeness of HK just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob

                          Prometheus


                          etznab wrote:

                          You guys are too funny. I mean that in a
                          good way. I saw the photo : )

                          Etznab


                          Prometheus wrote:

                          Hello Jonathan and All,

                          Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo

                          below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just

                          saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded

                          me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"

                          and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't

                          that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and

                          Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It

                          seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's

                          why they're "really" smiling!



                          If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob



                          http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte----jail.ht\
                          ml

                          Prometheus



                          Jonathan wrote:

                          G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo

                          I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed

                          over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in

                          Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the

                          room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real

                          flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8

                          by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years

                          at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main

                          room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5

                          inches in size.



                          For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley

                          Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously

                          overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were

                          obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.

                          His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It

                          doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from

                          gray to black.



                          Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-

                          Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more

                          chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a

                          very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious

                          spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously

                          said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-

                          happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with

                          an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you

                          look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His

                          hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile

                          lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital

                          retouching.
                        • jonathanjohns96
                          Prometheus, In my original post in this thread, yes, I was saying that Harold Klemp s photo with the big, exaggerated, plastic smile reminded me of Smiling
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 9, 2009
                            Prometheus,

                            In my original post in this thread, yes, I was saying that Harold
                            Klemp's photo with the big, exaggerated, plastic smile reminded me
                            of "Smiling Bob" in the Enzyte commercials. I was making a direct
                            comparison of the two.

                            I searched EckankarTruth. I did find a post by Sharon on December 21,
                            2008:

                            ==================
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/message/7095
                            "Hmmmm....you know, in the past I've compared ekult to those ads for
                            products claiming you can increase your bust/penis several inches
                            overnight. Now, those "Smiling Bob" commercials are hilarious, and
                            claim they have millions of satisfied customers - but where's the
                            *real* proof? Any scientific studies?" [Sharon]
                            ==================

                            Although she mentions "Smiling Bob," she doesn't specifically compare
                            Harold's photo to Smiling Bob in the Enzyte commercial.

                            Maybe I did make that part up. Oh well, I guess I may go down in
                            history for something after all. I'm not sure why I thought I saw it
                            somewhere else.

                            btw, it appears that people refer to the guy in the Enzyte commercial
                            as "Smiling Bob," not my version "Smiley Bob." Even Wikipedia
                            mentions "Similin' Bob."

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzyte
                            "Enzyte is widely advertised on US television as "the once daily
                            tablet for natural male enhancement". The commercials feature a
                            character known as "Smilin' Bob", who always wears a smile that is
                            implied to be caused by the enhancing effects of Enzyte; these
                            advertisements feature double entendres."

                            Jonathan


                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Etznab, Jonathan, and All,
                            > I really didn't see the other posts on
                            > another site about "Smiling Bob."
                            >
                            > Jonathan's comments about Klemp's
                            > smiling photos, "smiley Bob" and the
                            > fact that this was still in my thoughts
                            > when an Enzyte commercial came on
                            > TV is what "connected the dots" and
                            > "turned on the light bulb" for me.
                            >
                            > I still wasn't certain if the reference
                            > to "Smiley Bob" and Klemp had anything
                            > to do with that En"Z"yte commercial.
                            >
                            > http://www.google.com/search?
                            hl=en&q=Enzyte+Bob&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
                            >
                            >
                            http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte-
                            ---jail.ht\
                            > ml
                            >
                            > To see another likeness of HK just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > etznab wrote:
                            >
                            > You guys are too funny. I mean that in a
                            > good way. I saw the photo : )
                            >
                            > Etznab
                            >
                            >
                            > Prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Jonathan and All,
                            >
                            > Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo
                            >
                            > below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just
                            >
                            > saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded
                            >
                            > me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"
                            >
                            > and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't
                            >
                            > that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and
                            >
                            > Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It
                            >
                            > seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's
                            >
                            > why they're "really" smiling!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte-
                            ---jail.ht\
                            > ml
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Jonathan wrote:
                            >
                            > G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
                            >
                            > I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
                            >
                            > over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
                            >
                            > Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
                            >
                            > room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
                            >
                            > flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
                            >
                            > by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
                            >
                            > at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the
                            main
                            >
                            > room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
                            >
                            > inches in size.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
                            >
                            > Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
                            >
                            > overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
                            >
                            > obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more
                            pronounced.
                            >
                            > His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
                            >
                            > doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
                            >
                            > gray to black.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
                            >
                            > Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
                            >
                            > chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
                            >
                            > very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
                            >
                            > spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
                            >
                            > said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
                            >
                            > happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
                            >
                            > an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
                            >
                            > look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
                            >
                            > hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
                            >
                            > lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
                            >
                            > retouching.
                            >
                          • jonathanjohns96
                            All, I m resurrecting a thread that I started about a month ago on February 5, 2009. It was my first post explaining what I call The Madison Avenue Approach
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 3, 2009
                              All,

                              I'm resurrecting a thread that I started about a month ago on February 5, 2009. It was my first post explaining what I call "The Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar." By this I mean the use of slick marketing to promote Eckankar. In that original post I detailed eight subcategories which I labeled A through H. About two weeks ago I thought up one more example of marketing which would be subcategory I.

                              I. Remember the time Harold Klemp told a story about the little girl at the playground who taught her friend the HU? This was a long time ago, perhaps more than ten years ago. At any rate, the little girl, I believe she was six years old, taught her little friend the HU. And I believe Klemp indicated that there was some sort of upliftment or beneficial effect on the other child.

                              Klemp's use of this story kept bothering me and about two weeks ago I finally figured out what was going on. In my opinion, the HU is actually a very powerful spiritual technique. It is not child's play. I I would go so far as to say that it messes a lot of people up by throwing them off balance especially if they overdo it. It is very powerful at opening the upper chakras and this can cause problems for some people. But perhaps even more importantly, I think a lot of Westerners have an adversion to it because it seems like something from an Eastern religion.

                              What's Eckankar to do? Why tell a story about a six year old girl teaching the HU to her little friend. What is actually happeneing with this story is this. Children respresent innocence. And so if the HU is so innocent that a little girl can teach it to one of her friends, how can anyone dare view the HU as potentially dangerous or as something to be at all suspicious about? So Klemp's use of this story is merely a clever marketing ploy. And it uses innocent children to accomplish this goal!

                              Let me give you another example. Let's say a big drug company is selling a dangerous drug. How could they fool their target audience by portraying this drug as harmless? Why make a television commercial, talk about the drug and its supposed benefits, but have the video showing a little girl dancing along in a field picking flowers or flying a kite. Sure, the video has nothing to with the drug, but the true purpose of the video is quite clear. This is actually "Advertising 101." It's something that even someone with the most basic knowledge of advertising experience could think up.

                              Those of you who have followed my posts know that after this original "Madison Avenue" post I related a story in Klemp's new (2008) book "HU, The Most Beautiful Prayer" about a girl named Heidi. She used the HU to help heal a little boy. So this is another example of this. If little children are doing it, what can be wrong with it? What can be dangerous about it?

                              It's all just another shameless example of how Eckankar uses marketing to fool people. And trust me, a lot of people ARE fooled because the average person does not possess the experience in life to see through these things. And how can a corporation like Eckankar do anything more shameful than this? To use innocent children to promote their religion?

                              Jonathan
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Jonathan and All, Klemp changes the rules as he sees fit. At one time these charged words like HU and ECK were kept from the general public because
                              Message 14 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
                                Hello Jonathan and All,
                                Klemp changes the rules as he sees fit.
                                At one time these "charged words" like
                                HU and ECK were kept from the general
                                public because they could harm people
                                by creating an imbalance that would
                                have negative effects upon them.

                                Thus, only "initiated" members of
                                Eckankar were instructed on how to
                                use these "charged words," and were
                                "protected" from harm by the master.
                                However, now that I think of it a
                                "Charge" is either negative or positive
                                in order to have an effect. Therefore,
                                using a "charged word" seems like it
                                could be used for either Black or White
                                Magic. This is why they were kept
                                hidden from the general public.

                                It was kind of like "sharing" one's
                                inner spiritual experiences with the
                                master. Eckists were told Not to Share
                                these because some Eckists didn't
                                have inner experiences and this sharing
                                could make them jealous or feel ashamed
                                that they weren't making progress.

                                And, some people would pick apart
                                the experience or reinterpret it making
                                the one who had it feel more confused
                                or that their interpretation of it was
                                inaccurate or that the dream of the
                                Astral Plane. It was like "casting
                                your pearls before swine." Yet, Klemp
                                changed this policy as well! And, he
                                did this as a promotion method.

                                I wonder how many people (non-Eckists)
                                are instructed Not to "direct" the HU,
                                and what that means. Now, Klemp is
                                saying that to HU is to pray. I'm not
                                so sure that Eckankar will be received
                                as well, in libraries especially, to give
                                intros. First, Klemp redefines Eckankar
                                as a Religion of God and now the HU
                                becomes a Prayer! True, there's a lot
                                of other religious crap like Hierarchies
                                and Worship Services etc., but it really
                                seems to me that Klemp is digressing
                                back to his Lutheran roots, and he's
                                taking others with him!

                                One more thing. I'm thinking that
                                when ECKists are being "neutral" and
                                are doing that Sunday Morning Seminar
                                HU Chant/Song that Klemp is backstage
                                "directing" it for his own purposes!

                                Prometheus

                                jonathan wrote:
                                All,

                                I'm resurrecting a thread that I started about a month ago on February 5, 2009.
                                It was my first post explaining what I call "The Madison Avenue Approach to
                                Eckankar." By this I mean the use of slick marketing to promote Eckankar. In
                                that original post I detailed eight subcategories which I labeled A through H.
                                About two weeks ago I thought up one more example of marketing which would be
                                subcategory I.

                                I. Remember the time Harold Klemp told a story about the little girl at the
                                playground who taught her friend the HU? This was a long time ago, perhaps more
                                than ten years ago. At any rate, the little girl, I believe she was six years
                                old, taught her little friend the HU. And I believe Klemp indicated that there
                                was some sort of upliftment or beneficial effect on the other child.

                                Klemp's use of this story kept bothering me and about two weeks ago I finally
                                figured out what was going on. In my opinion, the HU is actually a very powerful
                                spiritual technique. It is not child's play. I I would go so far as to say that
                                it messes a lot of people up by throwing them off balance especially if they
                                overdo it. It is very powerful at opening the upper chakras and this can cause
                                problems for some people. But perhaps even more importantly, I think a lot of
                                Westerners have an adversion to it because it seems like something from an
                                Eastern religion.

                                What's Eckankar to do? Why tell a story about a six year old girl teaching the
                                HU to her little friend. What is actually happeneing with this story is this.
                                Children respresent innocence. And so if the HU is so innocent that a little
                                girl can teach it to one of her friends, how can anyone dare view the HU as
                                potentially dangerous or as something to be at all suspicious about? So Klemp's
                                use of this story is merely a clever marketing ploy. And it uses innocent
                                children to accomplish this goal!

                                Let me give you another example. Let's say a big drug company is selling a
                                dangerous drug. How could they fool their target audience by portraying this
                                drug as harmless? Why make a television commercial, talk about the drug and its
                                supposed benefits, but have the video showing a little girl dancing along in a
                                field picking flowers or flying a kite. Sure, the video has nothing to with the
                                drug, but the true purpose of the video is quite clear. This is actually
                                "Advertising 101." It's something that even someone with the most basic
                                knowledge of advertising experience could think up.

                                Those of you who have followed my posts know that after this original "Madison
                                Avenue" post I related a story in Klemp's new (2008) book "HU, The Most
                                Beautiful Prayer" about a girl named Heidi. She used the HU to help heal a
                                little boy. So this is another example of this. If little children are doing it,
                                what can be wrong with it? What can be dangerous about it?

                                It's all just another shameless example of how Eckankar uses marketing to fool
                                people. And trust me, a lot of people ARE fooled because the average person does
                                not possess the experience in life to see through these things. And how can a
                                corporation like Eckankar do anything more shameful than this? To use innocent
                                children to promote their religion?

                                Jonathan
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