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Re: Promotion of Eckankar Part 1 of 3- Dummying-Down of Eckankar

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  • jonathanjohns96
    Prometheus, I m not certain we are on the same track regarding Peter Skelsky and memberships. I think your comments are valid. But in the talk I am referring
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
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      Prometheus,
      I'm not certain we are on the same track regarding Peter Skelsky and
      memberships. I think your comments are valid. But in the talk I am
      referring to Peter said there would be two different membership
      tracks side by side in Eckankar. Parallel to each other, but
      unrelated. The "no requirements" track would be more similar to say
      someone who is currently a Christian: they go to chuch, but that's
      about it. So the "no requirements" track would be in Eckankar just to
      go to the Worship Services and attend seminars; to a large degree
      just social activities for them. They would not read study the
      Eckankar discourses. They would not receive initiations. That is my
      understanding of what the Eckists who were there told me.
      Jonathan


      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Jonathan and All,
      > It seems like ECKankar stopped using the term
      > "Soul Travel" with the public because it didn't
      > make sense. Vahanas always had to explain that
      > there was actually No "traveling" involved, although,
      > at times it felt like there was the "sensation" of travel.
      >
      > Actually, the old "Bi-location" term, that Twitch first
      > used, is more descriptive of splitting the consciousness,
      > or of being in two places (or planes of consciousness)
      > simultaneously than with the confusion surrounding
      > the term Soul "Travel."
      >
      > Yes, it is clear that Klemp has taken a business approach
      > with ECKankar. Recently, however, the EK training methods
      > have become rather dated and questionable. For instance,
      > Klemp has recommended using the 1930 copyright of
      > Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People"
      > as a training guide for EK vahanas. BTW- Why can't the
      > All-Knowing Mahanta (Klemp) come up with something
      > as clever as Dale Carnegie did, or poetry to equal Rumi's?
      > Why doesn't Klemp present his own new and current views
      > instead of recycling those of others? It's because HK's not
      > all that talented (creative) or intelligent (thoughtful)!
      >
      > BTW- Isn't it interesting that Twitchell used Julian P. Johnson's
      > (1938) "The Path of the Masters" to create ECKankar in 1965,
      > and now, in the 21st Century, Klemp uses Dale Carnegie's
      > 1930 book for his EK Vahana Training!
      >
      > ********************************************************
      > Here's some info I found:
      >
      > Quotes by Famous People - Dale Carnegie (1888-1955)
      > was a pioneer in public speaking and personality development.
      > He is perhaps the most well-known author in the field of
      > communication and public speaking. He was born in Maryville,
      > Missouri, USA. He grew up on a small farm, and endured the
      > struggles and proverty of farming life.
      >
      > He had a strong belief that the quickest way to develop
      > a persons self esteem was by public speaking. His book,
      > "How to Win Friends and Influence People", was published
      > in 1930 and has sold well over 10 million copies. His books
      > continue to help people worldwide. He truly believe in the
      > saying, "Believe that you will succeed, and you will".
      >
      > If you enjoy the quotes below, then you may enjoy the
      > writings of Dale Carnegie
      >
      > Below are words of wisdom in the form of inspirational
      > quotes and motivational quotes by Dale Carnegie:
      >
      > "You'll never achieve real success unless you like what
      > you're doing." Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Flaming enthusiasm backed by horse sense and persistence,
      > is the quality that most frequently makes for success."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "There are four ways, and only four ways, in which we
      > have contact with the world. We are evaluated and classified
      > by these four contacts:
      >
      > what we do,
      > how we look,
      > what we say, and
      > how we say it." Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "The successful man will profit from his mistakes and try
      > again in a different way."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Don't be afraid to give your best to what seemingly are small
      > jobs. Every time you conquer one it makes you that much
      > stronger. If you do the little jobs well, the big ones will tend
      > to take care of themselves."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "When fate hands us a lemon, let's try to make lemonade."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the beehive.
      > If only the people who worry about their liabilities would
      > think about the riches they do possess, they would stop
      > worrying." Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "You can make more friends in two months by becoming
      > interested in other people than you can in two years by trying
      > to get other people interested in you."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "If you can't sleep, then get up and do something instead
      > of lying there worrying. It's the worry that gets you, not
      > the lack of sleep."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "The person who goes farthest is generally the one who
      > is willing to do and dare. The sure-thing boat never gets
      > far from shore."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "First ask yourself:
      > What is the worst that can happen?
      > Then prepare to accept it.
      > Then proceed to improve on the worst."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Be more concerned with your character than with your
      > reputation. Your character is what you really are while
      > your reputation is merely what others think you are."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Would you sell both your eyes for a million dollars…or
      > your two legs…or your hands…or your hearing? Add up
      > what you do have, and you'll find you won't sell them for
      > all the gold in the world. The best things in life are yours,
      > if you can appreciate them."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Remember, today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "If you don't like their rules, whose would you use?"
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "You have it easily in your power to increase the sum total
      > of this world's happiness now. How? By giving a few words
      > of sincere appreciation to someone who is lonely or discouraged.
      > Perhaps you will forget tomorrow the kind words you say today,
      > but the recipient may cherish them over a lifetime."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Inaction breeds doubt and fear. Action breeds confidence
      > and courage. If you want to conquer fear, do not sit home
      > and think about it. Go out and get busy."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "If you believe in what you are doing, then let nothing hold
      > you up in your work. Much of the best work of the world has
      > been done against seeming impossibilities. The thing is to
      > get the work done."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "People rarely succeed unless they have fun in what they are
      doing."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Did you ever see an unhappy horse? Did you ever see bird
      > that had the blues? One reason why birds and horses are not
      > unhappy is because they are not trying to impress other birds
      > and horses."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished
      > by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no
      > help at all."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Do the thing you fear to do and keep on doing it... that is the
      > quickest and surest way ever yet discovered to conquer fear."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Tell me what gives a man or woman their greatest pleasure
      > and I'll tell you their philosophy of life."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "I deal with the obvious. I present, reiterate and glorify the
      > obvious -- because the obvious is what people need to be told."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "If you want to win friends, make it a point to remember them.
      > If you remember my name, you pay me a subtle compliment;
      > you indicate that I have made an impression on you. Remember
      > my name and you add to my feeling of importance."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "All the king's horses and all the king's men can't put the past
      > together again. So let's remember: Don't try to saw sawdust."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "If you believe in what you are doing, then let nothing hold you
      > up in your work. Much of the best work of the world has been
      > done against seeming impossibilities. The thing is to get the work
      > done."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Are you bored with life? Then throw yourself into some work
      > you believe in with all your heart, live for it, die for it, and
      you
      > will find happines that you had thought could never be yours."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Pay less attention to what men say. Just watch what they do."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "If we think happy thoughts, we will be happy. If we think
      miserable
      > thoughts, we will be miserable."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes
      character
      > and selfcontrol to be understanding and forgiving."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Remember happiness doesn't depend upon who you are or what
      > you have; it depends solely on what you think."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "One of the most tragic things I know about human nature is that
      > all of us tend to put off living. We are all dreaming of some
      magical
      > rose garden over the horizon-instead of enjoying the roses blooming
      > outside our windows today."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "The way to defeat fear: decide on a course of conduct and follow
      it.
      > Keep so busy and work so hard that you forget about being afraid."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      > "Many people think that if they were only in some other place,
      > or had some other job, they would be happy. Well, that is doubtful.
      > So get as much happiness out of what you are doing as you can and
      > don't put off being happy until some future date."
      > Dale Carnegie
      >
      *********************************************************************
      >
      > IMO- Peter Skelsky's comments of 15 years of Membership Fees
      > corresponds to the same 15 years worth of EK Discourses that
      > have been available for years and years! These ECKists with
      > initiations 1-4 would have to pay for the Discourses. I believe
      > that initiates 5-9 will Not have to pay for a Memberships, BUT
      > they would be expected to pay or "donate" their time and money
      > (service & coin) in other ways. Those courses and trainings for
      > Cleric positions, Initiator positions, ESA positions, and those
      > Internet Broadcasts etc. will be how this money will be diverted.
      > Besides, there are Two different kinds of Memberships now!
      > There are Lower and Higher Initiates just as there are Two
      different
      > Initiate Meetings at Seminars.
      >
      > Skelsky and Klemp are merely responding to the criticism that
      > has been posted about paying for Lower Plane "spirituality" after
      > the outer EK Discourses have been completed. It's kind of like
      > "taxation without representation" since the LEM (Outer master)
      > is more for the Lower (Plane) Initiates while the Mahanta (Inner
      > Master) is more for the Higher (Plane) Initiates and shouldn't be
      > concerned with money! Right! Isn't this what the EK Dogma, more
      > precisely, states? Thus, future EK membership requirements must
      > also change!
      >
      > Prometheus
      > #################################################
      >
      > jonathan wrote:
      > >
      > > Through the years Eckankar has used different promotional
      > techniques. I got used to Eckankar in the early years when their
      > standard procedure was to give Introductory Lectures. But things
      > have changed a lot since then, and it wasn't for the better. I
      started
      > noticing these unfortunate changes long before I even considered
      > leaving Eckankar.
      > >
      > I have broken down these changes in the promotion of Eckankar
      > into three categories:
      > >
      > 1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
      > 2. Madison-Avenue Approach to Eckankar
      > 3. Christianization of Eckankar
      > >
      > I know that a few people on the Internet have mentioned the
      > first two briefly here and there. I can't say I have heard anyone
      > mention the Christianization of Eckankar; that seems to be
      something
      > new that I have noticed.
      > >
      > 1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
      > >
      > A. Harold Klemp's Dummied-Down Books
      > The first thing I would like to discuss under this category is
      > something that I noticed a long long time ago, perhaps in the
      > mid to late 1980s. I can specifically remember going to the local
      > Eckankar Center. Everyone there was abuzz because Harold had
      > a new book that had come out. I picked it up, took a quick look
      > and said to myself "This is the same kind of namby pamby, dull
      > stories that were in his previous books." i really didn't think
      much
      > more about it at that time, but sometime in my last year in
      Eckankar
      > (Jan-Dec, 2008) I realized that this dummying doen of Eckankar's
      > books was probably intentional. In other words, make the books
      > of Eckankar so watered down that they couldn't possibly offend
      > anyone.
      > >
      > I did read about one person on the Internet who made the same type
      of
      > comments about Harold's books, but I had felt this way back in the
      > 1980s.
      > >
      > B. Removal of ''soul travel'' from the teachings of Eckankar
      > There are two aspects to this. The first one is that some time in
      the
      > past ten years Eckankar basically removed the entire concept of
      soul
      > travel from anything that new people would ever be exposed to.
      Again,
      > I feel that this was done so as not to "weird out" newcomers, thus
      > preventing potential new members of Eckankar.
      > >
      > The second aspect is de-emphasizing of soul travel in the teachings
      > of Eckankar, even for long time members. I don't know exactly when
      > this happened.
      > >
      > Why did Eckankar de-emphasize soul travel? Somebody at Eckankar
      > headquarters must have researched this and they discovered that
      > almost no Eckists even do soul travel. And the ones that were doing
      > it were having experiences that were at odds with the teachings of
      > Eckankar. These Eckists having strange inner experiences had no one
      > in Eckankar to talk to so many of them got "fet up" with Eckankar
      and
      > left. Graham Forsythe's bad experience in this regard speaks for
      > itself. He sought help from two higher initiates, then Ford
      Johnson,
      > and eventually Harold Klemp himself. Klemp dissed him badly,
      proving
      > that if your experiences are outside the realm of what Paul
      Twitchell
      > experiences, they are at least highly suspect if not
      > downright "wrong."
      > >
      > Another thing that happenned is that somebody, presumably Klemp,
      > dummied down the definition of soul travel. Soul travel is an OBE
      > (out of body experience). but eventually, many experiences which
      were
      > much less that that were all of a sudden being lableld as "soul
      > travel." For example, "If you just had an amazing insight, then you
      > soul traveled." Etc.
      > >
      > C. Seminar in 2008 with Peter Skelesky as the speaker
      > There was a seminar in the Summer or Fall of 2008 where Peter
      > Skelesky was the keynote speaker. He said some seemingly wacky
      things
      > which even shook up the higher HIs who heard it. He stated that
      > Eckankar will be offering a new type of membership which has no
      > requirements for the membership. Individuals who hold this
      > membership in Eckankar won't read any discourses. There will be no
      > requirements attached to their membership, Therefore, when this is
      > instituted, there will be two types of memberships in Eckankar.
      > >
      > This new membership really says a lot about the people running
      > Eckankar. It really shows how low they will go to attract new
      members
      > to Eckankar: "Remove all the requirements." I have two
      > questions: "Who in their right mind would want to join Eckankar
      under
      > these conditions? What is the benefit for them?" I see the benefit
      > for Eckankar: more money, but I don't see the benefit for the new
      > member.
      > >
      > Also, if Eckankar decides to do this it is going to backfire badly
      > because the long-term Eckists are not going to be happy at all.
      They
      > are working hard to advance their own spirituality while they are
      > side-by-side other members in Eckankar who don't have to do
      anything?
      > >
      > I will post Parts 2 and 3 of "Promotion of Eckankar" later.
      > >
      > Anyone can feel free to comment. I believe the contents of the
      Peter
      > Skelesky talk are well known on the Internet.
      > >
      > Jonathan
      > >
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Jonathan and All, Actually, there have been Two Tracks for EK Initiates for years now. And, this is reflected in the Seminar Workshops and Roundtables.
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
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        Hello Jonathan and All,
        Actually, there have been "Two Tracks" for EK Initiates
        for years now. And, this is reflected in the Seminar Workshops
        and Roundtables.

        There's the "fast track" for initiation and then there's the slower,
        but more "spiritual" track. This is actually a "mind game" Klemp's
        playing. Outside of the EK Seminar (back home) one has to be
        on the "fast track" for titles before one can receive that next
        "spiritual" initiation. Of course, imagination and delusion goes
        long way in believing one is "growing" spiritually. But, when
        initiations are "slowed down" one has to find the right words
        and distractions to justify this old on-going policy.

        This Third "no requirements" track might be another method
        devised to sucker people in (Bait and Switch). After a while
        these newbies and procrastinators start to covet the titles
        and/or initiations and then join as paying members. In the
        meantime they're buying EK books and spending their money
        in other EK ways. Thus, maybe this is another ploy to increase
        the numbers while, also, increasing the pool of those willing
        to buy pieces of the scam (non-joiners). Look at other religions
        and the way that many younger disillusioned people "church"
        hunt! ECKankar, too, will take their money via material purchases
        until they will, also, become disillusioned with another religion.
        With ECKankar, and religion in general, the numbers game becomes
        more and more important each year.

        Quantity versus Quality has always been a problem within
        ECKankar since the "Quality" of Klemp's H.I.s have always been
        a problem. Look at how Higher Initiations are, and have been,
        handed out with Klemp and Company. Where's the "Spiritual
        Awareness" with Klemp let alone his Higher Initiates? And, as
        I've stated before, HK is changing ECKankar to look more and
        more like his former Lutheran Church and Christianity in general!

        Prometheus



        Jonathan wrote:

        Prometheus,
        I'm not certain we are on the same track regarding Peter Skelsky
        and memberships. I think your comments are valid. But in the
        talk I am referring to Peter said there would be two different
        membership tracks side by side in Eckankar. Parallel to each
        other, but unrelated. The "no requirements" track would be
        more similar to say someone who is currently a Christian: they
        go to chuch, but that's about it. So the "no requirements" track
        would be in Eckankar just to go to the Worship Services and attend
        seminars; to a large degree just social activities for them. They
        would not read study the Eckankar discourses. They would not
        receive initiations. That is my understanding of what the Eckists
        who were there told me.

        Jonathan

        Prometheus wrote:

        IMO- Peter Skelsky's comments of 15 years of Membership Fees
        corresponds to the same 15 years worth of EK Discourses that
        have been available for years and years! These ECKists with
        initiations 1-4 would have to pay for the Discourses. I believe
        that initiates 5-9 will Not have to pay for a Memberships, BUT
        they would be expected to pay or "donate" their time and money
        (service & coin) in other ways. Those courses and trainings for
        Cleric positions, Initiator positions, ESA positions, and those
        Internet Broadcasts etc. will be how this money will be collected.

        Besides, there are Two different kinds of Memberships now!
        There are Lower and Higher Initiates Memberships just as there
        are Two different Initiate Membership Meetings at Seminars.

        Skelsky and Klemp are merely responding to the criticism that
        has been posted about paying for Lower Plane "spirituality" after
        the outer EK Discourses have been completed. It's kind of like
        "taxation without representation" since the LEM (Outer master)
        is more for the Lower (Plane) Initiates while the Mahanta (Inner
        Master) is more for the Higher (Plane) Initiates and shouldn't be
        concerned with money! Right! Isn't this what the EK Dogma, more
        precisely, states? Thus, future EK membership requirements must
        also change!
      • jonathanjohns96
        Prometheus, When you said I ve stated before, HK is changing ECKankar to look more and more like his former Lutheran Church and Christianity in general! you
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
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          Prometheus,

          When you said "I've stated before, HK is changing ECKankar to look
          more and more like his former Lutheran Church and Christianity in
          general!" you obviously were saying the same thing as me. I rmember
          you making comparisons to Klemp's Lutheran Church, but I though you
          were speaking in vague terms about Klemp turning Eckankar into a
          social club. I didn't know that you meant he was patterning Eckankar
          after Christianity.

          Interesting how we both noticed this independantly, but the
          membership of Eckankar can't see any of this, or if they do, they
          don't have a problem with it. It just shows me once more how much
          these people literally worship Harold Klemp. It doesn't matter what
          hair-brained scheme Klemp comes up with, the membership goes right
          along with it.

          A worship service? On Sunday morning? It certainly sounds exactly
          like Christianity to me. Shouldn't all of that raise some red flags
          to the mebership of Eckankar?

          I've been questioning why Eckankar has a worship service for many
          years. Probably since it was first instituted which I believe was
          before 1999 even.

          It's amazing how I independantly figured out many of the same things
          that you did about Eckankar, yet we have never even met or
          communicated until a few short weeks ago.
          Jonathan
        • etznab@aol.com
          A worship service? On Sunday morning? It certainly sounds exactly like Christianity to me. Shouldn t all of that raise some red flags to the mebership of
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
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            "A worship service? On Sunday morning? It
            certainly sounds exactly like Christianity to me.
            Shouldn't all of that raise some red flags to the
            mebership of Eckankar?"

            My question is: "Worship of what?" Since
            the "Living Eck Master" is supposedly not to
            be worshipped as "God". However, I thought
            that was what people worshipped at church.
            God?

            God, or Sugmad, is what Paul Twitchell (&
            Rebazar Tarzs) appeared to worship in Brad
            Steiger's book but, judging by the amount of
            pictures in Eckankar Centers depicting Eck
            Masters and the leader of Eckankar, it does
            seem that the emphasis is on Eck Masters &
            the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master when one
            combines these with the "worship" of them by
            members.

            Granted, I can't speak for all Eck Centers
            but, in my opinion, the books and promotional
            materials do seem to put a lot of emphasis on
            "Eck Masters". In fact, this is what appears to
            be a major "selling point" of Eckankar dogma
            and what even (in some instances) is claimed
            to be "unique" about Eckankar when compared
            with other paths.

            I wonder if true these are not worshipped?

            I wonder, too, about the emphasis they are
            not to be worshipped.

            Does the word "worshipped" mean not to be
            worshipped as God(s)? Because, maybe this is
            why peoope leave Eckankar? I mean, when they
            feel forced to "worship" Eck Masters as "God"?

            Once, at a table for the public, a person came
            up to find out about what Eckankar believed. As
            soon as they heard about the Living Eck Master
            being like a guru and representative of God they
            said something like: "See, I don't believe in that"
            and they turned and walked away. It was fine up
            until that point. They were curious and interested
            before that.

            Etznab


            -----Original Message-----
            From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 2:21 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Promotion of Eckankar Part 1
            of 3- Dummying-Down of Eckankar



            Prometheus,



            When you said "I've stated before, HK is changing ECKankar to look

            more and more like his former Lutheran Church and Christianity in

            general!" you obviously were saying the same thing as me. I rmember

            you making comparisons to Klemp's Lutheran Church, but I though you

            were speaking in vague terms about Klemp turning Eckankar into a

            social club. I didn't know that you meant he was patterning Eckankar

            after Christianity.



            Interesting how we both noticed this independantly, but the

            membership of Eckankar can't see any of this, or if they do, they

            don't have a problem with it. It just shows me once more how much

            these people literally worship Harold Klemp. It doesn't matter what

            hair-brained scheme Klemp comes up with, the membership goes right

            along with it.



            A worship service? On Sunday morning? It certainly sounds exactly

            like Christianity to me. Shouldn't all of that raise some red flags

            to the mebership of Eckankar?



            I've been questioning why Eckankar has a worship service for many

            years. Probably since it was first instituted which I believe was

            before 1999 even.



            It's amazing how I independantly figured out many of the same things

            that you did about Eckankar, yet we have never even met or

            communicated until a few short weeks ago.

            Jonathan
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