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Re: Promotion of Eckankar Part 1 of 3 - Dummying-Down of Eckankar

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  • jonathanjohns96
    Etznab, I heard about this at the local Eck center soon after Skelesky gave the talk. I heard nothing about it since. So what I am saying is that just because
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
      Etznab,
      I heard about this at the local Eck center soon after Skelesky gave
      the talk. I heard nothing about it since. So what I am saying is that
      just because Peter Skelesky said it at a seminar I don't necessarily
      believe it will happen soon or even at all. We'll have to wait and
      see. I know that it went over extremely poorly with long-time members
      of Eckankar. But as I believe Prometheus has pointed out, the old
      timers are a dying breed in Eckankar. I think perhaps Skelesky
      was "testing the waters" at this seminar just to see how people would
      react.
      Jonathan

      Etznab quoted Jonathanjohns96, then wrote a reply:
      >
      > [jonathanjohns96 -->] "Eckankar will be offering a
      > new type of membership
      > which has no requirements for the membership. Indiv-
      > iduals who hold this membership in Eckankar won't
      > read any discourses. There will be no requirements
      > attached to their membership, Therefore, when this
      > is instituted, there will be two types of memberships
      > in Eckankar." [<-- jonathanjohns96]
      >
      > [Etznab -->] Umm... this type of membership ... I wonder if some
      > day it will become the ONLY form of membership! And
      > for everybody? It would remove Eckankar from a whole
      > lot of liability! (IMO)
      >
      > It was interesting what you shared. I did not know of
      > this other form of membership until just now. However,
      > I suspect it has to do with more than just gaining new
      > members.
      >
      > Etznab
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 5:59 pm
      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Promotion of Eckankar Part
      1 of
      > 3 - Dummying-Down of Eckankar
      >
      >
      >
      > Through the years Eckankar has used different promotional
      techniques.
      >
      > I got used to Eckankar in the early years when their standard
      >
      > procedure was to give Introductory Lectures. But things have changed
      >
      > a lot since then, and it wasn't for the better. I started noticing
      >
      > these unfortunate changes long before I even considered leaving
      >
      > Eckankar.
      >
      >
      >
      > I have broken down these changes in the promotion of Eckankar into
      >
      > three categories:
      >
      > =0
      > A
      >
      > 1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
      >
      > 2. Madison-Avenue Approach to Eckankar
      >
      > 3. Christianization of Eckankar
      >
      >
      >
      > I know that a few people on the Internet have mentioned the first
      two
      >
      > briefly here and there. I can't say I have heard anyone mention the
      >
      > Christianization of Eckankar; that seems to be something new that I
      >
      > have noticed.
      >
      >
      >
      > 1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
      >
      >
      >
      > A. Harold Klemp's Dummied-Down Books
      >
      > The first thing I would like to discuss under this category is
      >
      > something that I noticed a long long time ago, perhaps in the mid to
      >
      > late 1980s. I can specifically remember going to the local Eckankar
      >
      > Center. Everyone there was abuzz because Harold had a new book that
      >
      > had come out. I picked it up, took a quick look and said to
      >
      > myself "This is the same kind of namby pamby, dull stories that were
      >
      > in his previous books." i really didn't think much more about it at
      >
      > that time, but sometime in my last year in Eckankar (Jan-Dec, 2008)
      I
      >
      > realized that this dummying doen of Eckankar's books was probably
      >
      > intentional. In other words, make the books of Eckankar so watered
      >
      > down that they couldn't possibly offend anyone.
      >
      >
      >
      > I did read about one person on the Internet who made the same type
      of
      >
      > comments about Harold's books, but I had felt this way back in the
      >
      > 1980s.
      >
      >
      >
      > B. Removal of ''soul travel'' from the teachings of Eckankar0D
      >
      > There are two aspects to this. The first one is that some time in
      the
      >
      > past ten years Eckankar basically removed the entire concept of soul
      >
      > travel from anything that new people would ever be exposed to.
      Again,
      >
      > I feel that this was done so as not to "weird out" newcomers, thus
      >
      > preventing potential new members of Eckankar.
      >
      >
      >
      > The second aspect is de-emphasizing of soul travel in the teachings
      >
      > of Eckankar, even for long time members. I don't know exactly when
      >
      > this happened.
      >
      >
      >
      > Why did Eckankar de-emphasize soul travel? Somebody at Eckankar
      >
      > headquarters must have researched this and they discovered that
      >
      > almost no Eckists even do soul travel. And the ones that were doing
      >
      > it were having experiences that were at odds with the teachings of
      >
      > Eckankar. These Eckists having strange inner experiences had no one
      >
      > in Eckankar to talk to so many of them got "fet up" with Eckankar
      and
      >
      > left. Graham Forsythe's bad experience in this regard speaks for
      >
      > itself. He sought help from two higher initiates, then Ford Johnson,
      >
      > and eventually Harold Klemp himself. Klemp dissed him badly, proving
      >
      > that if your experiences are outside the realm of what Paul
      Twitchell
      >
      > experiences, they are at least highly suspect if not
      >
      > downright "wrong."
      >
      >
      >
      > Another thing that happenned is that somebody, presumably Klemp,
      >
      > dummied down the definition of soul travel. Soul travel is an OBE
      >
      > (
      > out of body experience). but eventually, many experiences which were
      >
      > much less that that were all of a sudden being lableld as "soul
      >
      > travel." For example, "If you just had an amazing insight, then you
      >
      > soul traveled." Etc.
      >
      >
      >
      > C. Seminar in 2008 with Peter Skelesky as the speaker
      >
      > There was a seminar in the Summer or Fall of 2008 where Peter
      >
      > Skelesky was the keynote speaker. He said some seemingly wacky
      things
      >
      > which even shook up the higher HIs who heard it. He stated that
      >
      > Eckankar will be offering a new type of membership which has no
      >
      > requirements for the membership. Individuals who hold this
      >
      > membership in Eckankar won't read any discourses. There will be no
      >
      > requirements attached to their membership, Therefore, when this is
      >
      > instituted, there will be two types of memberships in Eckankar.
      >
      >
      >
      > This new membership really says a lot about the people running
      >
      > Eckankar. It really shows how low they will go to attract new
      members
      >
      > to Eckankar: "Remove all the requirements." I have two
      >
      > questions: "Who in their right mind would want to join Eckankar
      under
      >
      > these conditions? What is the benefit for them?" I see the benefit
      >
      > for Eckankar: more money, but I don't see the benefit for the new
      >
      > member.
      >
      >
      >
      > Also, if Eckankar decides to do this it is going to backfire badly
      >
      > because the long-term Eckists are not going to be happy at all. They
      >
      > are working ha
      > rd to advance their own spirituality while they are
      >
      > side-by-side other members in Eckankar who don't have to do
      anything?
      >
      >
      >
      > I will post Parts 2 and 3 of "Promotion of Eckankar" later.
      >
      >
      >
      > Anyone can feel free to comment. I believe the contents of the Peter
      >
      > Skelesky talk are well known on the Internet.
      >
      >
      >
      > Jonathan
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Jonathan and All, It seems like ECKankar stopped using the term Soul Travel with the public because it didn t make sense. Vahanas always had to explain
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
        Hello Jonathan and All,
        It seems like ECKankar stopped using the term
        "Soul Travel" with the public because it didn't
        make sense. Vahanas always had to explain that
        there was actually No "traveling" involved, although,
        at times it felt like there was the "sensation" of travel.

        Actually, the old "Bi-location" term, that Twitch first
        used, is more descriptive of splitting the consciousness,
        or of being in two places (or planes of consciousness)
        simultaneously than with the confusion surrounding
        the term Soul "Travel."

        Yes, it is clear that Klemp has taken a business approach
        with ECKankar. Recently, however, the EK training methods
        have become rather dated and questionable. For instance,
        Klemp has recommended using the 1930 copyright of
        Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People"
        as a training guide for EK vahanas. BTW- Why can't the
        All-Knowing Mahanta (Klemp) come up with something
        as clever as Dale Carnegie did, or poetry to equal Rumi's?
        Why doesn't Klemp present his own new and current views
        instead of recycling those of others? It's because HK's not
        all that talented (creative) or intelligent (thoughtful)!

        BTW- Isn't it interesting that Twitchell used Julian P. Johnson's
        (1938) "The Path of the Masters" to create ECKankar in 1965,
        and now, in the 21st Century, Klemp uses Dale Carnegie's
        1930 book for his EK Vahana Training!

        ********************************************************
        Here's some info I found:

        Quotes by Famous People - Dale Carnegie (1888-1955)
        was a pioneer in public speaking and personality development.
        He is perhaps the most well-known author in the field of
        communication and public speaking. He was born in Maryville,
        Missouri, USA. He grew up on a small farm, and endured the
        struggles and proverty of farming life.

        He had a strong belief that the quickest way to develop
        a persons self esteem was by public speaking. His book,
        "How to Win Friends and Influence People", was published
        in 1930 and has sold well over 10 million copies. His books
        continue to help people worldwide. He truly believe in the
        saying, "Believe that you will succeed, and you will".

        If you enjoy the quotes below, then you may enjoy the
        writings of Dale Carnegie

        Below are words of wisdom in the form of inspirational
        quotes and motivational quotes by Dale Carnegie:

        "You'll never achieve real success unless you like what
        you're doing." Dale Carnegie

        "Flaming enthusiasm backed by horse sense and persistence,
        is the quality that most frequently makes for success."
        Dale Carnegie

        "There are four ways, and only four ways, in which we
        have contact with the world. We are evaluated and classified
        by these four contacts:

        what we do,
        how we look,
        what we say, and
        how we say it." Dale Carnegie

        "The successful man will profit from his mistakes and try
        again in a different way."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Don't be afraid to give your best to what seemingly are small
        jobs. Every time you conquer one it makes you that much
        stronger. If you do the little jobs well, the big ones will tend
        to take care of themselves."
        Dale Carnegie

        "When fate hands us a lemon, let's try to make lemonade."
        Dale Carnegie

        "If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the beehive.
        If only the people who worry about their liabilities would
        think about the riches they do possess, they would stop
        worrying." Dale Carnegie

        "You can make more friends in two months by becoming
        interested in other people than you can in two years by trying
        to get other people interested in you."
        Dale Carnegie

        "If you can't sleep, then get up and do something instead
        of lying there worrying. It's the worry that gets you, not
        the lack of sleep."
        Dale Carnegie

        "The person who goes farthest is generally the one who
        is willing to do and dare. The sure-thing boat never gets
        far from shore."
        Dale Carnegie

        "First ask yourself:
        What is the worst that can happen?
        Then prepare to accept it.
        Then proceed to improve on the worst."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Be more concerned with your character than with your
        reputation. Your character is what you really are while
        your reputation is merely what others think you are."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Would you sell both your eyes for a million dollars…or
        your two legs…or your hands…or your hearing? Add up
        what you do have, and you'll find you won't sell them for
        all the gold in the world. The best things in life are yours,
        if you can appreciate them."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Remember, today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday."
        Dale Carnegie

        "If you don't like their rules, whose would you use?"
        Dale Carnegie

        "You have it easily in your power to increase the sum total
        of this world's happiness now. How? By giving a few words
        of sincere appreciation to someone who is lonely or discouraged.
        Perhaps you will forget tomorrow the kind words you say today,
        but the recipient may cherish them over a lifetime."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Inaction breeds doubt and fear. Action breeds confidence
        and courage. If you want to conquer fear, do not sit home
        and think about it. Go out and get busy."
        Dale Carnegie

        "If you believe in what you are doing, then let nothing hold
        you up in your work. Much of the best work of the world has
        been done against seeming impossibilities. The thing is to
        get the work done."
        Dale Carnegie

        "People rarely succeed unless they have fun in what they are doing."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Did you ever see an unhappy horse? Did you ever see bird
        that had the blues? One reason why birds and horses are not
        unhappy is because they are not trying to impress other birds
        and horses."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished
        by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no
        help at all."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Do the thing you fear to do and keep on doing it... that is the
        quickest and surest way ever yet discovered to conquer fear."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Tell me what gives a man or woman their greatest pleasure
        and I'll tell you their philosophy of life."
        Dale Carnegie

        "I deal with the obvious. I present, reiterate and glorify the
        obvious -- because the obvious is what people need to be told."
        Dale Carnegie

        "If you want to win friends, make it a point to remember them.
        If you remember my name, you pay me a subtle compliment;
        you indicate that I have made an impression on you. Remember
        my name and you add to my feeling of importance."
        Dale Carnegie

        "All the king's horses and all the king's men can't put the past
        together again. So let's remember: Don't try to saw sawdust."
        Dale Carnegie

        "If you believe in what you are doing, then let nothing hold you
        up in your work. Much of the best work of the world has been
        done against seeming impossibilities. The thing is to get the work
        done."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Are you bored with life? Then throw yourself into some work
        you believe in with all your heart, live for it, die for it, and you
        will find happines that you had thought could never be yours."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Pay less attention to what men say. Just watch what they do."
        Dale Carnegie

        "If we think happy thoughts, we will be happy. If we think miserable
        thoughts, we will be miserable."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character
        and selfcontrol to be understanding and forgiving."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Remember happiness doesn't depend upon who you are or what
        you have; it depends solely on what you think."
        Dale Carnegie

        "One of the most tragic things I know about human nature is that
        all of us tend to put off living. We are all dreaming of some magical
        rose garden over the horizon-instead of enjoying the roses blooming
        outside our windows today."
        Dale Carnegie

        "The way to defeat fear: decide on a course of conduct and follow it.
        Keep so busy and work so hard that you forget about being afraid."
        Dale Carnegie

        "Many people think that if they were only in some other place,
        or had some other job, they would be happy. Well, that is doubtful.
        So get as much happiness out of what you are doing as you can and
        don't put off being happy until some future date."
        Dale Carnegie
        *********************************************************************

        IMO- Peter Skelsky's comments of 15 years of Membership Fees
        corresponds to the same 15 years worth of EK Discourses that
        have been available for years and years! These ECKists with
        initiations 1-4 would have to pay for the Discourses. I believe
        that initiates 5-9 will Not have to pay for a Memberships, BUT
        they would be expected to pay or "donate" their time and money
        (service & coin) in other ways. Those courses and trainings for
        Cleric positions, Initiator positions, ESA positions, and those
        Internet Broadcasts etc. will be how this money will be diverted.
        Besides, there are Two different kinds of Memberships now!
        There are Lower and Higher Initiates just as there are Two different
        Initiate Meetings at Seminars.

        Skelsky and Klemp are merely responding to the criticism that
        has been posted about paying for Lower Plane "spirituality" after
        the outer EK Discourses have been completed. It's kind of like
        "taxation without representation" since the LEM (Outer master)
        is more for the Lower (Plane) Initiates while the Mahanta (Inner
        Master) is more for the Higher (Plane) Initiates and shouldn't be
        concerned with money! Right! Isn't this what the EK Dogma, more
        precisely, states? Thus, future EK membership requirements must
        also change!

        Prometheus
        #################################################

        jonathan wrote:
        >
        > Through the years Eckankar has used different promotional
        techniques. I got used to Eckankar in the early years when their
        standard procedure was to give Introductory Lectures. But things
        have changed a lot since then, and it wasn't for the better. I started
        noticing these unfortunate changes long before I even considered
        leaving Eckankar.
        >
        I have broken down these changes in the promotion of Eckankar
        into three categories:
        >
        1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
        2. Madison-Avenue Approach to Eckankar
        3. Christianization of Eckankar
        >
        I know that a few people on the Internet have mentioned the
        first two briefly here and there. I can't say I have heard anyone
        mention the Christianization of Eckankar; that seems to be something
        new that I have noticed.
        >
        1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
        >
        A. Harold Klemp's Dummied-Down Books
        The first thing I would like to discuss under this category is
        something that I noticed a long long time ago, perhaps in the
        mid to late 1980s. I can specifically remember going to the local
        Eckankar Center. Everyone there was abuzz because Harold had
        a new book that had come out. I picked it up, took a quick look
        and said to myself "This is the same kind of namby pamby, dull
        stories that were in his previous books." i really didn't think much
        more about it at that time, but sometime in my last year in Eckankar
        (Jan-Dec, 2008) I realized that this dummying doen of Eckankar's
        books was probably intentional. In other words, make the books
        of Eckankar so watered down that they couldn't possibly offend
        anyone.
        >
        I did read about one person on the Internet who made the same type of
        comments about Harold's books, but I had felt this way back in the
        1980s.
        >
        B. Removal of ''soul travel'' from the teachings of Eckankar
        There are two aspects to this. The first one is that some time in the
        past ten years Eckankar basically removed the entire concept of soul
        travel from anything that new people would ever be exposed to. Again,
        I feel that this was done so as not to "weird out" newcomers, thus
        preventing potential new members of Eckankar.
        >
        The second aspect is de-emphasizing of soul travel in the teachings
        of Eckankar, even for long time members. I don't know exactly when
        this happened.
        >
        Why did Eckankar de-emphasize soul travel? Somebody at Eckankar
        headquarters must have researched this and they discovered that
        almost no Eckists even do soul travel. And the ones that were doing
        it were having experiences that were at odds with the teachings of
        Eckankar. These Eckists having strange inner experiences had no one
        in Eckankar to talk to so many of them got "fet up" with Eckankar and
        left. Graham Forsythe's bad experience in this regard speaks for
        itself. He sought help from two higher initiates, then Ford Johnson,
        and eventually Harold Klemp himself. Klemp dissed him badly, proving
        that if your experiences are outside the realm of what Paul Twitchell
        experiences, they are at least highly suspect if not
        downright "wrong."
        >
        Another thing that happenned is that somebody, presumably Klemp,
        dummied down the definition of soul travel. Soul travel is an OBE
        (out of body experience). but eventually, many experiences which were
        much less that that were all of a sudden being lableld as "soul
        travel." For example, "If you just had an amazing insight, then you
        soul traveled." Etc.
        >
        C. Seminar in 2008 with Peter Skelesky as the speaker
        There was a seminar in the Summer or Fall of 2008 where Peter
        Skelesky was the keynote speaker. He said some seemingly wacky things
        which even shook up the higher HIs who heard it. He stated that
        Eckankar will be offering a new type of membership which has no
        requirements for the membership. Individuals who hold this
        membership in Eckankar won't read any discourses. There will be no
        requirements attached to their membership, Therefore, when this is
        instituted, there will be two types of memberships in Eckankar.
        >
        This new membership really says a lot about the people running
        Eckankar. It really shows how low they will go to attract new members
        to Eckankar: "Remove all the requirements." I have two
        questions: "Who in their right mind would want to join Eckankar under
        these conditions? What is the benefit for them?" I see the benefit
        for Eckankar: more money, but I don't see the benefit for the new
        member.
        >
        Also, if Eckankar decides to do this it is going to backfire badly
        because the long-term Eckists are not going to be happy at all. They
        are working hard to advance their own spirituality while they are
        side-by-side other members in Eckankar who don't have to do anything?
        >
        I will post Parts 2 and 3 of "Promotion of Eckankar" later.
        >
        Anyone can feel free to comment. I believe the contents of the Peter
        Skelesky talk are well known on the Internet.
        >
        Jonathan
        >
      • jonathanjohns96
        Prometheus, I m not certain we are on the same track regarding Peter Skelsky and memberships. I think your comments are valid. But in the talk I am referring
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
          Prometheus,
          I'm not certain we are on the same track regarding Peter Skelsky and
          memberships. I think your comments are valid. But in the talk I am
          referring to Peter said there would be two different membership
          tracks side by side in Eckankar. Parallel to each other, but
          unrelated. The "no requirements" track would be more similar to say
          someone who is currently a Christian: they go to chuch, but that's
          about it. So the "no requirements" track would be in Eckankar just to
          go to the Worship Services and attend seminars; to a large degree
          just social activities for them. They would not read study the
          Eckankar discourses. They would not receive initiations. That is my
          understanding of what the Eckists who were there told me.
          Jonathan


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Jonathan and All,
          > It seems like ECKankar stopped using the term
          > "Soul Travel" with the public because it didn't
          > make sense. Vahanas always had to explain that
          > there was actually No "traveling" involved, although,
          > at times it felt like there was the "sensation" of travel.
          >
          > Actually, the old "Bi-location" term, that Twitch first
          > used, is more descriptive of splitting the consciousness,
          > or of being in two places (or planes of consciousness)
          > simultaneously than with the confusion surrounding
          > the term Soul "Travel."
          >
          > Yes, it is clear that Klemp has taken a business approach
          > with ECKankar. Recently, however, the EK training methods
          > have become rather dated and questionable. For instance,
          > Klemp has recommended using the 1930 copyright of
          > Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People"
          > as a training guide for EK vahanas. BTW- Why can't the
          > All-Knowing Mahanta (Klemp) come up with something
          > as clever as Dale Carnegie did, or poetry to equal Rumi's?
          > Why doesn't Klemp present his own new and current views
          > instead of recycling those of others? It's because HK's not
          > all that talented (creative) or intelligent (thoughtful)!
          >
          > BTW- Isn't it interesting that Twitchell used Julian P. Johnson's
          > (1938) "The Path of the Masters" to create ECKankar in 1965,
          > and now, in the 21st Century, Klemp uses Dale Carnegie's
          > 1930 book for his EK Vahana Training!
          >
          > ********************************************************
          > Here's some info I found:
          >
          > Quotes by Famous People - Dale Carnegie (1888-1955)
          > was a pioneer in public speaking and personality development.
          > He is perhaps the most well-known author in the field of
          > communication and public speaking. He was born in Maryville,
          > Missouri, USA. He grew up on a small farm, and endured the
          > struggles and proverty of farming life.
          >
          > He had a strong belief that the quickest way to develop
          > a persons self esteem was by public speaking. His book,
          > "How to Win Friends and Influence People", was published
          > in 1930 and has sold well over 10 million copies. His books
          > continue to help people worldwide. He truly believe in the
          > saying, "Believe that you will succeed, and you will".
          >
          > If you enjoy the quotes below, then you may enjoy the
          > writings of Dale Carnegie
          >
          > Below are words of wisdom in the form of inspirational
          > quotes and motivational quotes by Dale Carnegie:
          >
          > "You'll never achieve real success unless you like what
          > you're doing." Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Flaming enthusiasm backed by horse sense and persistence,
          > is the quality that most frequently makes for success."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "There are four ways, and only four ways, in which we
          > have contact with the world. We are evaluated and classified
          > by these four contacts:
          >
          > what we do,
          > how we look,
          > what we say, and
          > how we say it." Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "The successful man will profit from his mistakes and try
          > again in a different way."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Don't be afraid to give your best to what seemingly are small
          > jobs. Every time you conquer one it makes you that much
          > stronger. If you do the little jobs well, the big ones will tend
          > to take care of themselves."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "When fate hands us a lemon, let's try to make lemonade."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the beehive.
          > If only the people who worry about their liabilities would
          > think about the riches they do possess, they would stop
          > worrying." Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "You can make more friends in two months by becoming
          > interested in other people than you can in two years by trying
          > to get other people interested in you."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "If you can't sleep, then get up and do something instead
          > of lying there worrying. It's the worry that gets you, not
          > the lack of sleep."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "The person who goes farthest is generally the one who
          > is willing to do and dare. The sure-thing boat never gets
          > far from shore."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "First ask yourself:
          > What is the worst that can happen?
          > Then prepare to accept it.
          > Then proceed to improve on the worst."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Be more concerned with your character than with your
          > reputation. Your character is what you really are while
          > your reputation is merely what others think you are."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Would you sell both your eyes for a million dollars…or
          > your two legs…or your hands…or your hearing? Add up
          > what you do have, and you'll find you won't sell them for
          > all the gold in the world. The best things in life are yours,
          > if you can appreciate them."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Remember, today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "If you don't like their rules, whose would you use?"
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "You have it easily in your power to increase the sum total
          > of this world's happiness now. How? By giving a few words
          > of sincere appreciation to someone who is lonely or discouraged.
          > Perhaps you will forget tomorrow the kind words you say today,
          > but the recipient may cherish them over a lifetime."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Inaction breeds doubt and fear. Action breeds confidence
          > and courage. If you want to conquer fear, do not sit home
          > and think about it. Go out and get busy."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "If you believe in what you are doing, then let nothing hold
          > you up in your work. Much of the best work of the world has
          > been done against seeming impossibilities. The thing is to
          > get the work done."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "People rarely succeed unless they have fun in what they are
          doing."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Did you ever see an unhappy horse? Did you ever see bird
          > that had the blues? One reason why birds and horses are not
          > unhappy is because they are not trying to impress other birds
          > and horses."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished
          > by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no
          > help at all."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Do the thing you fear to do and keep on doing it... that is the
          > quickest and surest way ever yet discovered to conquer fear."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Tell me what gives a man or woman their greatest pleasure
          > and I'll tell you their philosophy of life."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "I deal with the obvious. I present, reiterate and glorify the
          > obvious -- because the obvious is what people need to be told."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "If you want to win friends, make it a point to remember them.
          > If you remember my name, you pay me a subtle compliment;
          > you indicate that I have made an impression on you. Remember
          > my name and you add to my feeling of importance."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "All the king's horses and all the king's men can't put the past
          > together again. So let's remember: Don't try to saw sawdust."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "If you believe in what you are doing, then let nothing hold you
          > up in your work. Much of the best work of the world has been
          > done against seeming impossibilities. The thing is to get the work
          > done."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Are you bored with life? Then throw yourself into some work
          > you believe in with all your heart, live for it, die for it, and
          you
          > will find happines that you had thought could never be yours."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Pay less attention to what men say. Just watch what they do."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "If we think happy thoughts, we will be happy. If we think
          miserable
          > thoughts, we will be miserable."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes
          character
          > and selfcontrol to be understanding and forgiving."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Remember happiness doesn't depend upon who you are or what
          > you have; it depends solely on what you think."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "One of the most tragic things I know about human nature is that
          > all of us tend to put off living. We are all dreaming of some
          magical
          > rose garden over the horizon-instead of enjoying the roses blooming
          > outside our windows today."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "The way to defeat fear: decide on a course of conduct and follow
          it.
          > Keep so busy and work so hard that you forget about being afraid."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          > "Many people think that if they were only in some other place,
          > or had some other job, they would be happy. Well, that is doubtful.
          > So get as much happiness out of what you are doing as you can and
          > don't put off being happy until some future date."
          > Dale Carnegie
          >
          *********************************************************************
          >
          > IMO- Peter Skelsky's comments of 15 years of Membership Fees
          > corresponds to the same 15 years worth of EK Discourses that
          > have been available for years and years! These ECKists with
          > initiations 1-4 would have to pay for the Discourses. I believe
          > that initiates 5-9 will Not have to pay for a Memberships, BUT
          > they would be expected to pay or "donate" their time and money
          > (service & coin) in other ways. Those courses and trainings for
          > Cleric positions, Initiator positions, ESA positions, and those
          > Internet Broadcasts etc. will be how this money will be diverted.
          > Besides, there are Two different kinds of Memberships now!
          > There are Lower and Higher Initiates just as there are Two
          different
          > Initiate Meetings at Seminars.
          >
          > Skelsky and Klemp are merely responding to the criticism that
          > has been posted about paying for Lower Plane "spirituality" after
          > the outer EK Discourses have been completed. It's kind of like
          > "taxation without representation" since the LEM (Outer master)
          > is more for the Lower (Plane) Initiates while the Mahanta (Inner
          > Master) is more for the Higher (Plane) Initiates and shouldn't be
          > concerned with money! Right! Isn't this what the EK Dogma, more
          > precisely, states? Thus, future EK membership requirements must
          > also change!
          >
          > Prometheus
          > #################################################
          >
          > jonathan wrote:
          > >
          > > Through the years Eckankar has used different promotional
          > techniques. I got used to Eckankar in the early years when their
          > standard procedure was to give Introductory Lectures. But things
          > have changed a lot since then, and it wasn't for the better. I
          started
          > noticing these unfortunate changes long before I even considered
          > leaving Eckankar.
          > >
          > I have broken down these changes in the promotion of Eckankar
          > into three categories:
          > >
          > 1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
          > 2. Madison-Avenue Approach to Eckankar
          > 3. Christianization of Eckankar
          > >
          > I know that a few people on the Internet have mentioned the
          > first two briefly here and there. I can't say I have heard anyone
          > mention the Christianization of Eckankar; that seems to be
          something
          > new that I have noticed.
          > >
          > 1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
          > >
          > A. Harold Klemp's Dummied-Down Books
          > The first thing I would like to discuss under this category is
          > something that I noticed a long long time ago, perhaps in the
          > mid to late 1980s. I can specifically remember going to the local
          > Eckankar Center. Everyone there was abuzz because Harold had
          > a new book that had come out. I picked it up, took a quick look
          > and said to myself "This is the same kind of namby pamby, dull
          > stories that were in his previous books." i really didn't think
          much
          > more about it at that time, but sometime in my last year in
          Eckankar
          > (Jan-Dec, 2008) I realized that this dummying doen of Eckankar's
          > books was probably intentional. In other words, make the books
          > of Eckankar so watered down that they couldn't possibly offend
          > anyone.
          > >
          > I did read about one person on the Internet who made the same type
          of
          > comments about Harold's books, but I had felt this way back in the
          > 1980s.
          > >
          > B. Removal of ''soul travel'' from the teachings of Eckankar
          > There are two aspects to this. The first one is that some time in
          the
          > past ten years Eckankar basically removed the entire concept of
          soul
          > travel from anything that new people would ever be exposed to.
          Again,
          > I feel that this was done so as not to "weird out" newcomers, thus
          > preventing potential new members of Eckankar.
          > >
          > The second aspect is de-emphasizing of soul travel in the teachings
          > of Eckankar, even for long time members. I don't know exactly when
          > this happened.
          > >
          > Why did Eckankar de-emphasize soul travel? Somebody at Eckankar
          > headquarters must have researched this and they discovered that
          > almost no Eckists even do soul travel. And the ones that were doing
          > it were having experiences that were at odds with the teachings of
          > Eckankar. These Eckists having strange inner experiences had no one
          > in Eckankar to talk to so many of them got "fet up" with Eckankar
          and
          > left. Graham Forsythe's bad experience in this regard speaks for
          > itself. He sought help from two higher initiates, then Ford
          Johnson,
          > and eventually Harold Klemp himself. Klemp dissed him badly,
          proving
          > that if your experiences are outside the realm of what Paul
          Twitchell
          > experiences, they are at least highly suspect if not
          > downright "wrong."
          > >
          > Another thing that happenned is that somebody, presumably Klemp,
          > dummied down the definition of soul travel. Soul travel is an OBE
          > (out of body experience). but eventually, many experiences which
          were
          > much less that that were all of a sudden being lableld as "soul
          > travel." For example, "If you just had an amazing insight, then you
          > soul traveled." Etc.
          > >
          > C. Seminar in 2008 with Peter Skelesky as the speaker
          > There was a seminar in the Summer or Fall of 2008 where Peter
          > Skelesky was the keynote speaker. He said some seemingly wacky
          things
          > which even shook up the higher HIs who heard it. He stated that
          > Eckankar will be offering a new type of membership which has no
          > requirements for the membership. Individuals who hold this
          > membership in Eckankar won't read any discourses. There will be no
          > requirements attached to their membership, Therefore, when this is
          > instituted, there will be two types of memberships in Eckankar.
          > >
          > This new membership really says a lot about the people running
          > Eckankar. It really shows how low they will go to attract new
          members
          > to Eckankar: "Remove all the requirements." I have two
          > questions: "Who in their right mind would want to join Eckankar
          under
          > these conditions? What is the benefit for them?" I see the benefit
          > for Eckankar: more money, but I don't see the benefit for the new
          > member.
          > >
          > Also, if Eckankar decides to do this it is going to backfire badly
          > because the long-term Eckists are not going to be happy at all.
          They
          > are working hard to advance their own spirituality while they are
          > side-by-side other members in Eckankar who don't have to do
          anything?
          > >
          > I will post Parts 2 and 3 of "Promotion of Eckankar" later.
          > >
          > Anyone can feel free to comment. I believe the contents of the
          Peter
          > Skelesky talk are well known on the Internet.
          > >
          > Jonathan
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan and All, Actually, there have been Two Tracks for EK Initiates for years now. And, this is reflected in the Seminar Workshops and Roundtables.
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
            Hello Jonathan and All,
            Actually, there have been "Two Tracks" for EK Initiates
            for years now. And, this is reflected in the Seminar Workshops
            and Roundtables.

            There's the "fast track" for initiation and then there's the slower,
            but more "spiritual" track. This is actually a "mind game" Klemp's
            playing. Outside of the EK Seminar (back home) one has to be
            on the "fast track" for titles before one can receive that next
            "spiritual" initiation. Of course, imagination and delusion goes
            long way in believing one is "growing" spiritually. But, when
            initiations are "slowed down" one has to find the right words
            and distractions to justify this old on-going policy.

            This Third "no requirements" track might be another method
            devised to sucker people in (Bait and Switch). After a while
            these newbies and procrastinators start to covet the titles
            and/or initiations and then join as paying members. In the
            meantime they're buying EK books and spending their money
            in other EK ways. Thus, maybe this is another ploy to increase
            the numbers while, also, increasing the pool of those willing
            to buy pieces of the scam (non-joiners). Look at other religions
            and the way that many younger disillusioned people "church"
            hunt! ECKankar, too, will take their money via material purchases
            until they will, also, become disillusioned with another religion.
            With ECKankar, and religion in general, the numbers game becomes
            more and more important each year.

            Quantity versus Quality has always been a problem within
            ECKankar since the "Quality" of Klemp's H.I.s have always been
            a problem. Look at how Higher Initiations are, and have been,
            handed out with Klemp and Company. Where's the "Spiritual
            Awareness" with Klemp let alone his Higher Initiates? And, as
            I've stated before, HK is changing ECKankar to look more and
            more like his former Lutheran Church and Christianity in general!

            Prometheus



            Jonathan wrote:

            Prometheus,
            I'm not certain we are on the same track regarding Peter Skelsky
            and memberships. I think your comments are valid. But in the
            talk I am referring to Peter said there would be two different
            membership tracks side by side in Eckankar. Parallel to each
            other, but unrelated. The "no requirements" track would be
            more similar to say someone who is currently a Christian: they
            go to chuch, but that's about it. So the "no requirements" track
            would be in Eckankar just to go to the Worship Services and attend
            seminars; to a large degree just social activities for them. They
            would not read study the Eckankar discourses. They would not
            receive initiations. That is my understanding of what the Eckists
            who were there told me.

            Jonathan

            Prometheus wrote:

            IMO- Peter Skelsky's comments of 15 years of Membership Fees
            corresponds to the same 15 years worth of EK Discourses that
            have been available for years and years! These ECKists with
            initiations 1-4 would have to pay for the Discourses. I believe
            that initiates 5-9 will Not have to pay for a Memberships, BUT
            they would be expected to pay or "donate" their time and money
            (service & coin) in other ways. Those courses and trainings for
            Cleric positions, Initiator positions, ESA positions, and those
            Internet Broadcasts etc. will be how this money will be collected.

            Besides, there are Two different kinds of Memberships now!
            There are Lower and Higher Initiates Memberships just as there
            are Two different Initiate Membership Meetings at Seminars.

            Skelsky and Klemp are merely responding to the criticism that
            has been posted about paying for Lower Plane "spirituality" after
            the outer EK Discourses have been completed. It's kind of like
            "taxation without representation" since the LEM (Outer master)
            is more for the Lower (Plane) Initiates while the Mahanta (Inner
            Master) is more for the Higher (Plane) Initiates and shouldn't be
            concerned with money! Right! Isn't this what the EK Dogma, more
            precisely, states? Thus, future EK membership requirements must
            also change!
          • jonathanjohns96
            Prometheus, When you said I ve stated before, HK is changing ECKankar to look more and more like his former Lutheran Church and Christianity in general! you
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
              Prometheus,

              When you said "I've stated before, HK is changing ECKankar to look
              more and more like his former Lutheran Church and Christianity in
              general!" you obviously were saying the same thing as me. I rmember
              you making comparisons to Klemp's Lutheran Church, but I though you
              were speaking in vague terms about Klemp turning Eckankar into a
              social club. I didn't know that you meant he was patterning Eckankar
              after Christianity.

              Interesting how we both noticed this independantly, but the
              membership of Eckankar can't see any of this, or if they do, they
              don't have a problem with it. It just shows me once more how much
              these people literally worship Harold Klemp. It doesn't matter what
              hair-brained scheme Klemp comes up with, the membership goes right
              along with it.

              A worship service? On Sunday morning? It certainly sounds exactly
              like Christianity to me. Shouldn't all of that raise some red flags
              to the mebership of Eckankar?

              I've been questioning why Eckankar has a worship service for many
              years. Probably since it was first instituted which I believe was
              before 1999 even.

              It's amazing how I independantly figured out many of the same things
              that you did about Eckankar, yet we have never even met or
              communicated until a few short weeks ago.
              Jonathan
            • etznab@aol.com
              A worship service? On Sunday morning? It certainly sounds exactly like Christianity to me. Shouldn t all of that raise some red flags to the mebership of
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
                "A worship service? On Sunday morning? It
                certainly sounds exactly like Christianity to me.
                Shouldn't all of that raise some red flags to the
                mebership of Eckankar?"

                My question is: "Worship of what?" Since
                the "Living Eck Master" is supposedly not to
                be worshipped as "God". However, I thought
                that was what people worshipped at church.
                God?

                God, or Sugmad, is what Paul Twitchell (&
                Rebazar Tarzs) appeared to worship in Brad
                Steiger's book but, judging by the amount of
                pictures in Eckankar Centers depicting Eck
                Masters and the leader of Eckankar, it does
                seem that the emphasis is on Eck Masters &
                the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master when one
                combines these with the "worship" of them by
                members.

                Granted, I can't speak for all Eck Centers
                but, in my opinion, the books and promotional
                materials do seem to put a lot of emphasis on
                "Eck Masters". In fact, this is what appears to
                be a major "selling point" of Eckankar dogma
                and what even (in some instances) is claimed
                to be "unique" about Eckankar when compared
                with other paths.

                I wonder if true these are not worshipped?

                I wonder, too, about the emphasis they are
                not to be worshipped.

                Does the word "worshipped" mean not to be
                worshipped as God(s)? Because, maybe this is
                why peoope leave Eckankar? I mean, when they
                feel forced to "worship" Eck Masters as "God"?

                Once, at a table for the public, a person came
                up to find out about what Eckankar believed. As
                soon as they heard about the Living Eck Master
                being like a guru and representative of God they
                said something like: "See, I don't believe in that"
                and they turned and walked away. It was fine up
                until that point. They were curious and interested
                before that.

                Etznab


                -----Original Message-----
                From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 2:21 pm
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Promotion of Eckankar Part 1
                of 3- Dummying-Down of Eckankar



                Prometheus,



                When you said "I've stated before, HK is changing ECKankar to look

                more and more like his former Lutheran Church and Christianity in

                general!" you obviously were saying the same thing as me. I rmember

                you making comparisons to Klemp's Lutheran Church, but I though you

                were speaking in vague terms about Klemp turning Eckankar into a

                social club. I didn't know that you meant he was patterning Eckankar

                after Christianity.



                Interesting how we both noticed this independantly, but the

                membership of Eckankar can't see any of this, or if they do, they

                don't have a problem with it. It just shows me once more how much

                these people literally worship Harold Klemp. It doesn't matter what

                hair-brained scheme Klemp comes up with, the membership goes right

                along with it.



                A worship service? On Sunday morning? It certainly sounds exactly

                like Christianity to me. Shouldn't all of that raise some red flags

                to the mebership of Eckankar?



                I've been questioning why Eckankar has a worship service for many

                years. Probably since it was first instituted which I believe was

                before 1999 even.



                It's amazing how I independantly figured out many of the same things

                that you did about Eckankar, yet we have never even met or

                communicated until a few short weeks ago.

                Jonathan
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