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Promotion of Eckankar Part 2 of 3 Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar

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  • jonathanjohns96
    Promotion of Eckankar - Part 2 of 3 - The Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar A long time ago (20 years?) I listened to a tape by Harold Klemp. In this tape he
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 4, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Promotion of Eckankar - Part 2 of 3 - The Madison Avenue Approach to
      Eckankar

      A long time ago (20 years?) I listened to a tape by Harold Klemp. In
      this tape he tells the story of how Eckankar had hired an advertising
      firm to give Eckankar advice on how to promote Eckankar. He joked
      around about the advice they received such as "Send this Rebazar Tarz
      guy on a road trip around the United States." But if you have been
      observing Eckankar like I have over the past fifteen years (1994-2008
      inclusive) you will notice that Eckankar seems to have actually taken
      a lot of this advertising advice they received seriously. I have
      coined the term "The Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar" to describe
      this phenomenon.

      And actually, this phenomenon even goes all the way back to Paul
      Twitchell who was also concerned about the "image" of Eckankar.

      A. Paul Twitchell's ''Closely-Cropped Beard Syndrome''
      Going all the way back to Paul Twitchell there is an interesting
      observation that I have made. Ever notice how many times the Eck
      writings mention that the Eck Masters all have "closely-cropped
      beards?" Did any of these members of Eckankar ever look at a photo of
      Fubbi Quantz or Lai Tsi? Both of these Eck masters have long beards.
      On the surface of things, it would seem that Eckankar has some kind
      of obsession with neatness. Psychologically speaking, that would
      indicate some type of underlying guilt complex. But no matter... My
      personal view is that this is part of the current "Madison-Avenue
      Approach" to promoting Eckankar to the public. In other words, it is
      part of Eckankar's promotional campaign which wants smartly-dressed,
      dapper Eck Masters, not sloven ones with ragged or shaggy beards.
      This actually started with Paul Twitchell when he instituted the "No
      Turbans Policy" which is my next topic.

      B. Paul Twitchell's ''No Turbans Policy''
      Are Eck masters allowed to wear turbans? It is something that members
      of Eckankar need to ask themselves. In order to clarify why this is
      true I need to ask everyone the following question: "Do you know what
      the surname "Singh" means? And what that name implies? I will answer
      this question by relating a short conversation that I had with a
      native of North India.

      A few weeks ago I was talking to a lady from North India. I asked her
      to clarify Punjabi, Sikhs, and the surname Singh. She told me that
      Punjabi Province is 55% Hindus, and 45% Sikhs. They are similar
      religions, but Hindus and Sikhs consider them to be completely
      different. Sikhism split off from Hinduism about 500 years ago. She
      said that almost all Sikhs have the surname Singh. The word "Singh"
      means lion. The name has significance with the history of the
      religion. Even though she is a Hindu, she knew a lot about Sikhism
      and explained it all to me, but I forgot what she said. I already
      knew that virtually all Sikh men in India wear turbans. The one thing
      I forgot to ask is "What language do the Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab
      Province speak. Wikipedia informed me that everyone in The Punjab
      speaks Punjabi, both Hindus and Sikhs.

      The point of this is any time that a person reads an Eckankar book
      and sees the name Singh, you should be picturing a man from North
      India wearing a turban. You will also know that he is of the Sikh
      religion. You would also know that he probably speaks Punjabi. I
      believe you will be correct 95% of the time providing the man is
      still living in India.

      So my question to Eckankar is "Why are there no graphical depictions
      of Eck masters showing them wearing a turban?" My own answer is that
      Americans, even back in the 1960s when Paul T was first formulating
      Eckankar, have a stereotypical attitude about men from India who wear
      a turban. In America, this image is associated with snake charmers
      and it is obviously meant to be a negative stereotype. So I honestly
      believe that this is why no one has ever seen a depiction of Sudar
      Singh or Kirpal Singh in Eckankar's literature. To the subconscious
      mind of Americans, a man from India wearing a turban is seen as a
      snake charmer, not a spiritual master.

      C. "Eckankar looks too much like an Eastern religion" or "Removing
      the 'strange' words from Eckankar"
      Over the past ten to fifteen years Eckankar has been systematically
      de-emphasizing the Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words in Eckankar. For
      example, replacing "Sugmad" with God. This was recently noted by
      Prometheus for the January 2009 Newsletter.

      I believe the main reason for this is because Eckankar wants all of
      these words out of the Introductory literature because they feel that
      it is scaring off newcomers. I see Eckankar eventually removing
      virtually all of them from all of the Intro material. But Eckankar
      will leave them in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad in order to add an air of
      mysteriousness to the writings. Ford Johnson discussed this in his
      book. Cultwatchers in general have pointed this out too.

      By the way, I don't think Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words are
      strange, but let's face it, the majority of Americans probably do. As
      a sidelight. Regarding the word "Eck," a native Hindi speaker from
      Northern India told me that "Ek" is more the spelling in the Punjabi
      language, whereas "Ik" (pronounced like the English word "ache") is
      more the spelling in the Hindi language. So "Ek" should really be
      considered a Punjabi word. Both Hindi and Punjabi are Northern Indian
      languages.

      D. All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be on glossy paper

      All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be full color on
      glossy paper. Why? It's all about appearances. Putting a first class
      image forward. In a way I have no problem with that, but they could
      be putting their resources toward a much more noble, spiritual goal
      such as removing the many fear-based curses found in their writings.
      Glossy paper wins out over that.

      E. Eck Centers must look nice
      Ever notice how Eck centers are always in nice, rented, office
      complexes? They could save a lot of money by buying an old church and
      using it. The reason they only use only rented, nice office space is
      because of appearances. It puts forth the "correct" upscale, yuppy-
      like appearance. They are not going to buy an old, run-down church.

      F. Eck Spiritual Campus
      Ever wonder why the new building at the Eck Spiritual Campus was
      built? I have. And the only reason I can come with is that,
      basically, it's a visitor center for newcomers touring the Eckankar
      grounds in Chanhassen. It's just for show. So people visiting
      Eckankar's grounds can say "Wow, look at all these nice buildings.
      These people are really upscale." I never heard of any member of
      Eckankar ever taking a class there. A person on the Internet named
      Dodie Belamy wrote an essay about Eckankar; she stated that it is
      used to show visitors around .

      G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
      I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
      over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
      Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
      room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
      flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
      by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years at
      least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main
      room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
      inches in size.

      For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
      Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
      overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
      obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.
      His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
      doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
      gray to black.

      Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
      Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
      chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
      very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
      spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
      said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
      happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
      an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
      look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
      hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
      lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
      retouching.

      H. And on a similar subject. Ever notice that sometime in the past
      five to ten years there was some rule passed at Eckankar Headquarters
      that every person shown in the Mystic World has to be smiling? I
      noticed right away when it happened. Once again, it's another example
      of the new paradigm in Eckankar that I call the "Happy-Happy
      Syndrome." Portray everyone in Eckankar as smiling and you will
      attract more members to Eckankar. My opinion is that you will attract
      superficial people who are easily swayed by slick marketing.
    • etznab@aol.com
      The term Eckankar - as used in your description - appears (to me) an over-generalization & somewhat misleading (no offense to you). The reason being that
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 4, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        The term "Eckankar" - as used in your description -
        appears (to me) an over-generalization & somewhat
        misleading (no offense to you). The reason being that
        "everybody has their own Eckankar" ... and so this
        "Eckankar" - I believe you are referring to - is just
        "ONE BRAND" of Eckankar. And one largely con-
        trolled by the "official" organization of Eckankar.

        I think it is wrong to identify some religious beliefs
        with an organization by the same name. Eckankar -
        "the history of it" - probably existed long before 1965-
        1970, and this one organization may not hold all the
        pieces to the puzzle, in a manner of speaking. This
        one version of "Eckankar" may represent a "facet",
        at best, of what has been know under various other
        names and by various other people(s) for centuries!
        This "one brand" of Eckankar - the official organized
        version - may not represent all people and / or even
        the beliefs of all people! Members included!

        Organized religions speak about "God" & "Heaven",
        but that does not mean they "own" or can "incorporate"
        and hold legally bound "God", "Heaven" and all of the
        beings in all universes to a single officially organized
        religion on planet Earth.

        See what I mean?

        Etznab


        -----Original Message-----
        From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 7:32 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Promotion of Eckankar Part 2 of
        3 Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar



        Promotion of Eckankar - Part 2 of 3 - The Madison Avenue Approach to

        Eckankar



        A long time ago (20 years?) I listened to a tape by Harold Klemp. In

        this tape he tells the story of how Eckankar had hired an advertising

        firm to give Eckankar advice on how to promote Eckankar. He joked

        around about the advice they received such as "Send this Rebazar Tarz

        guy on a road trip around the United States." But if you have been

        observing Eckankar like I have over the past fifteen years (1994-2008

        inclusive) you will notice that Eckankar seems to have actually taken

        a lot of this advertising advice they received seriously. I have

        coined the term "The Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar" to describe

        this phenomenon.



        And actually, this phenomenon even goes all the way back to Paul

        Twitchell who was also concerned about the "image" of Eckankar.



        A. Paul Twitchell's ''Closely-Cropped Beard Syndrome''

        Going all the way back to Paul Twitchell there is an interesting

        observation that I have made. Ever notice how many times the Eck

        writings mention that the Eck Masters all have "closely-cropped

        beards?" Did any of these members of Eckankar ever look at a photo of

        Fubbi Quantz or Lai Tsi? Both of these Eck masters have long beards.

        On the surface of things, it would seem that Eckankar has some kind

        of obsession with neatness. Psychologically speaking, that would

        indicate some type of underlying guilt complex. But no matter... My

        personal view is that this is part of the current "Madison-Avenue

        Approach" to promoting Eckankar to the public. In other words, it is

        part of Eckankar's promotional campaign which wants smartly-dressed,

        dapper Eck Masters, not sloven ones with ragged or shaggy beards.

        This actually started with Paul Twitchell when he instituted the "No

        Turbans Policy" which is my next topic.



        B. Paul Twitchell's ''No Turbans Policy''

        Are Eck masters allowed to wear turbans? It is something that members

        of Eckankar need to ask themselves. In order to clarify why this is

        true I need to ask everyone the following question: "Do you know what

        the surname "Singh" means? And what that name implies? I will answer

        this question by relating a short conversation that I had with a

        native of North India.



        A few weeks ago I was talking to a lady from North India. I asked her

        to clarify Punjabi, Sikhs, and the surname Singh. She told me that

        Punjabi Province is 55% Hindus, and 45% Sikhs. They are similar

        religions, but Hindus and Sikhs consider them to be completely

        different. Sikhism split off from Hinduism about 500 years ago. She

        said that almost all Sikhs have the surname Singh. The word "Singh"

        means lion. The name has significance with the history of the

        religion. Even though she is a Hindu, she knew a lot about Sikhism

        and explained it all to me, but I forgot what she said. I already

        knew that virtually all Sikh men in India wear turbans. The one thing

        I forgot to ask is "What language do the Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab

        Province speak. Wikipedia informed me that everyone in The Punjab

        speaks Punjabi, both Hindus and Sikhs.



        The point of this is any time that a person reads an Eckankar book

        and sees the name Singh, you should be picturing a man from North

        India wearing a turban. You will also know that he is of the Sikh

        religion. You would also know that he probably speaks Punjabi. I

        believe you will be correct 95% of the time providing the man is

        still living in India.



        So my question to Eckankar is "Why are there no graphical depictions

        of Eck masters showing them wearing a turban?" My own answer is that

        Americans, even back in the 1960s when Paul T was first formulating

        Eckankar, have a stereotypical attitude about men from India who wear

        a turban. In America, this image is associated with snake charmers

        and it is obviously meant to be a negative stereotype. So I honestly

        believe that this is why no one has ever seen a depiction of Sudar

        Singh or Kirpal Singh in Eckankar's literature. To the subconscious

        mind of Americans, a man from India wearing a turban is seen as a

        snake charmer, not a spiritual master.



        C. "Eckankar looks too much like an Eastern religion" or "Removing

        the 'strange' words from Eckankar"

        Over the past ten to fifteen years Eckankar has been systematically

        de-emphasizing the Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words in Eckankar. For

        example, replacing "Sugmad" with God. This was recently noted by

        Prometheus for the January 2009 Newsletter.



        I believe the main reason for this is because Eckankar wants all of

        these words out of the Introductory literature because they feel that

        it is scaring off newcomers. I see Eckankar eventually removing

        virtually all of them from all of the Intro material. But Eckankar

        will leave them in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad in order to add an air of

        mysteriousness to the writings. Ford Johnson discussed this in his

        book. Cultwatchers in general have pointed this out too.



        By the way, I don't think Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words are

        strange, but let's face it, the majority of Americans probably do. As

        a sidelight. Regarding the word "Eck," a native Hindi speaker from

        Northern India told me that "Ek" is more the spelling in the Punjabi

        language, whereas "Ik" (pronounced like the English word "ache") is

        more the spelling in the Hindi language. So "Ek" should really be

        considered a Punjabi word. Both Hindi and Punjabi are Northern Indian

        languages.



        D. All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be on glossy paper



        All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be full color on

        glossy paper. Why? It's all about appearances. Putting a first class

        image forward. In a way I have no problem with that, but they could

        be putting their resources toward a much more noble, spiritual goal

        such as removing the many fear-based curses found in their writings.

        Glossy paper wins out over that.



        E. Eck Centers must look nice

        Ever notice how Eck centers are always in nice, rented, office

        complexes? They could save a lot of money by buying an old church and

        using it. The reason they only use only rented, nice office space is

        because of appearances. It puts forth the "correct" upscale, yuppy-

        like appearance. They are not going to buy an old, run-down church.



        F. Eck Spiritual Campus

        Ever wonder why the new building at the Eck Spiritual Campus was

        built? I have. And the only reason I can come with is that,

        basically, it's a visitor center for newcomers touring the Eckankar

        grounds in Chanhassen. It's just for show. So people visiting

        Eckankar's grounds can say "Wow, look at all these nice buildings.

        These people are really upscale." I never heard of any member of

        Eckankar ever taking a class there. A person on the Internet named

        Dodie Belamy wrote an essay about Eckankar; she stated that it is

        used to show visitors around .



        G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo

        I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed

        over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in

        Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the

        room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real

        flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8

        by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years at

        least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main

        room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5

        inches in size.



        For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley

        Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously

        overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were

        obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.

        His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It

        doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from

        gray to black.



        Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-

        Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more

        chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a

        very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious

        spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously

        said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-

        happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with

        an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you

        look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His

        hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile

        lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital

        retouching.



        H. And on a similar subject. Ever notice that sometime in the past

        five to ten years there was some rule passed at Eckankar Headquarters

        that every person shown in the Mystic World has to be smiling? I

        noticed right away when it happened. Once again, it's another example

        of the new paradigm in Eckankar that I call the "Happy-Happy

        Syndrome." Portray everyone in Eckankar as smiling and you will

        attract more members to Eckankar. My opinion is that you will attract

        superficial people who are easily swayed by slick marketing.
      • jonathanjohns96
        Etznab, Sorry, but I don t get what you mean. Eckankar is by definition the physical organization that started in 1965, plus all of its followers. There isn t
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 5, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Etznab,

          Sorry, but I don't get what you mean. Eckankar is by definition the
          physical organization that started in 1965, plus all of its
          followers. There isn't any other "Eckankar."

          I think you are changing the subject by saying:

          > I think it is wrong to identify some religious beliefs
          > with an organization by the same name. Eckankar -
          > "the history of it" - probably existed long before 1965-
          > 1970, and this one organization may not hold all the
          > pieces to the puzzle, in a manner of speaking. This
          > one version of "Eckankar" may represent a "facet",
          > at best, of what has been know under various other
          > names and by various other people(s) for centuries!

          You are really sounding like an Eck Vahana to me.

          Especially when you said "I think it is wrong to identify some
          religious beliefs with an organization by the same name." What else
          are we going to identify it with? I really don't understand your
          reasoning.

          I agree that Eckankar doesn't own God merely because they trademarked
          the word "Sugmad." The point is, they act like they do. Eckankar
          teaches that it is the origin of all religions. I agree that
          Sugmad/Ik Onkaar or Eck/Holy Spirit is the origin of all religions,
          but Eckankar essentially says "We Are That!"

          Jonathan

          ***********************

          Etznab@wrote:
          >
          >
          > The term "Eckankar" - as used in your description -
          > appears (to me) an over-generalization & somewhat
          > misleading (no offense to you). The reason being that
          > "everybody has their own Eckankar" ... and so this
          > "Eckankar" - I believe you are referring to - is just
          > "ONE BRAND" of Eckankar. And one largely con-
          > trolled by the "official" organization of Eckankar.
          >
          > I think it is wrong to identify some religious beliefs
          > with an organization by the same name. Eckankar -
          > "the history of it" - probably existed long before 1965-
          > 1970, and this one organization may not hold all the
          > pieces to the puzzle, in a manner of speaking. This
          > one version of "Eckankar" may represent a "facet",
          > at best, of what has been know under various other
          > names and by various other people(s) for centuries!
          > This "one brand" of Eckankar - the official organized
          > version - may not represent all people and / or even
          > the beliefs of all people! Members included!
          >
          > Organized religions speak about "God" & "Heaven",
          > but that does not mean they "own" or can "incorporate"
          > and hold legally bound "God", "Heaven" and all of the
          > beings in all universes to a single officially organized
          > religion on planet Earth.
          >
          > See what I mean?
          >
          > Etznab
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 7:32 pm
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Promotion of Eckankar Part
          2 of
          > 3 Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar
          >
          >
          >
          > Promotion of Eckankar - Part 2 of 3 - The Madison Avenue Approach to
          >
          > Eckankar
          >
          >
          >
          > A long time ago (20 years?) I listened to a tape by Harold Klemp. In
          >
          > this tape he tells the story of how Eckankar had hired an
          advertising
          >
          > firm to give Eckankar advice on how to promote Eckankar. He joked
          >
          > around about the advice they received such as "Send this Rebazar
          Tarz
          >
          > guy on a road trip around the United States." But if you have been
          >
          > observing Eckankar like I have over the past fifteen years (1994-
          2008
          >
          > inclusive) you will notice that Eckankar seems to have actually
          taken
          >
          > a lot of this advertising advice they received seriously. I have
          >
          > coined the term "The Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar" to
          describe
          >
          > this phenomenon.
          >
          >
          >
          > And actually, this phenomenon even goes all the way back to Paul
          >
          > Twitchell who was also concerned about the "image" of Eckankar.
          >
          >
          >
          > A. Paul Twitchell's ''Closely-Cropped Beard Syndrome''
          >
          > Going all the way back to Paul Twitchell there is an interesting
          >
          > observation that I have made. Ever notice how many times the Eck
          >
          > writings mention that the Eck Masters all have "closely-cropped
          >
          > beards?" Did any of these members of Eckankar ever look at a photo
          of
          >
          > Fubbi Quantz or Lai Tsi? Both of these Eck masters have long beards.
          >
          > On the surface of things, it would seem that Eckankar has some kind
          >
          > of obsession with neatness. Psychologically speaking, that would
          >
          > indicate some type of underlying guilt complex. But no matter... My
          >
          > personal view is that this is part of the current "Madison-Avenue
          >
          > Approach" to promoting Eckankar to the public. In other words, it is
          >
          > part of Eckankar's promotional campaign which wants smartly-dressed,
          >
          > dapper Eck Masters, not sloven ones with ragged or shaggy beards.
          >
          > This actually started with Paul Twitchell when he instituted the "No
          >
          > Turbans Policy" which is my next topic.
          >
          >
          >
          > B. Paul Twitchell's ''No Turbans Policy''
          >
          > Are Eck masters allowed to wear turbans? It is something that
          members
          >
          > of Eckankar need to ask themselves. In order to clarify why this is
          >
          > true I need to ask everyone the following question: "Do you know
          what
          >
          > the surname "Singh" means? And what that name implies? I will answer
          >
          > this question by relating a short conversation that I had with a
          >
          > native of North India.
          >
          >
          >
          > A few weeks ago I was talking to a lady from North India. I asked
          her
          >
          > to clarify Punjabi, Sikhs, and the surname Singh. She told me that
          >
          > Punjabi Province is 55% Hindus, and 45% Sikhs. They are similar
          >
          > religions, but Hindus and Sikhs consider them to be completely
          >
          > different. Sikhism split off from Hinduism about 500 years ago. She
          >
          > said that almost all Sikhs have the surname Singh. The word "Singh"
          >
          > means lion. The name has significance with the history of the
          >
          > religion. Even though she is a Hindu, she knew a lot about Sikhism
          >
          > and explained it all to me, but I forgot what she said. I already
          >
          > knew that virtually all Sikh men in India wear turbans. The one
          thing
          >
          > I forgot to ask is "What language do the Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab
          >
          > Province speak. Wikipedia informed me that everyone in The Punjab
          >
          > speaks Punjabi, both Hindus and Sikhs.
          >
          >
          >
          > The point of this is any time that a person reads an Eckankar book
          >
          > and sees the name Singh, you should be picturing a man from North
          >
          > India wearing a turban. You will also know that he is of the Sikh
          >
          > religion. You would also know that he probably speaks Punjabi. I
          >
          > believe you will be correct 95% of the time providing the man is
          >
          > still living in India.
          >
          >
          >
          > So my question to Eckankar is "Why are there no graphical depictions
          >
          > of Eck masters showing them wearing a turban?" My own answer is that
          >
          > Americans, even back in the 1960s when Paul T was first formulating
          >
          > Eckankar, have a stereotypical attitude about men from India who
          wear
          >
          > a turban. In America, this image is associated with snake charmers
          >
          > and it is obviously meant to be a negative stereotype. So I honestly
          >
          > believe that this is why no one has ever seen a depiction of Sudar
          >
          > Singh or Kirpal Singh in Eckankar's literature. To the subconscious
          >
          > mind of Americans, a man from India wearing a turban is seen as a
          >
          > snake charmer, not a spiritual master.
          >
          >
          >
          > C. "Eckankar looks too much like an Eastern religion" or "Removing
          >
          > the 'strange' words from Eckankar"
          >
          > Over the past ten to fifteen years Eckankar has been systematically
          >
          > de-emphasizing the Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words in Eckankar.
          For
          >
          > example, replacing "Sugmad" with God. This was recently noted by
          >
          > Prometheus for the January 2009 Newsletter.
          >
          >
          >
          > I believe the main reason for this is because Eckankar wants all of
          >
          > these words out of the Introductory literature because they feel
          that
          >
          > it is scaring off newcomers. I see Eckankar eventually removing
          >
          > virtually all of them from all of the Intro material. But Eckankar
          >
          > will leave them in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad in order to add an air of
          >
          > mysteriousness to the writings. Ford Johnson discussed this in his
          >
          > book. Cultwatchers in general have pointed this out too.
          >
          >
          >
          > By the way, I don't think Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words are
          >
          > strange, but let's face it, the majority of Americans probably do.
          As
          >
          > a sidelight. Regarding the word "Eck," a native Hindi speaker from
          >
          > Northern India told me that "Ek" is more the spelling in the Punjabi
          >
          > language, whereas "Ik" (pronounced like the English word "ache") is
          >
          > more the spelling in the Hindi language. So "Ek" should really be
          >
          > considered a Punjabi word. Both Hindi and Punjabi are Northern
          Indian
          >
          > languages.
          >
          >
          >
          > D. All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be on glossy
          paper
          >
          >
          >
          > All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be full color on
          >
          > glossy paper. Why? It's all about appearances. Putting a first class
          >
          > image forward. In a way I have no problem with that, but they could
          >
          > be putting their resources toward a much more noble, spiritual goal
          >
          > such as removing the many fear-based curses found in their writings.
          >
          > Glossy paper wins out over that.
          >
          >
          >
          > E. Eck Centers must look nice
          >
          > Ever notice how Eck centers are always in nice, rented, office
          >
          > complexes? They could save a lot of money by buying an old church
          and
          >
          > using it. The reason they only use only rented, nice office space is
          >
          > because of appearances. It puts forth the "correct" upscale, yuppy-
          >
          > like appearance. They are not going to buy an old, run-down church.
          >
          >
          >
          > F. Eck Spiritual Campus
          >
          > Ever wonder why the new building at the Eck Spiritual Campus was
          >
          > built? I have. And the only reason I can come with is that,
          >
          > basically, it's a visitor center for newcomers touring the Eckankar
          >
          > grounds in Chanhassen. It's just for show. So people visiting
          >
          > Eckankar's grounds can say "Wow, look at all these nice buildings.
          >
          > These people are really upscale." I never heard of any member of
          >
          > Eckankar ever taking a class there. A person on the Internet named
          >
          > Dodie Belamy wrote an essay about Eckankar; she stated that it is
          >
          > used to show visitors around .
          >
          >
          >
          > G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
          >
          > I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
          >
          > over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
          >
          > Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
          >
          > room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
          >
          > flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
          >
          > by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years at
          >
          > least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main
          >
          > room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
          >
          > inches in size.
          >
          >
          >
          > For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
          >
          > Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
          >
          > overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
          >
          > obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more
          pronounced.
          >
          > His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
          >
          > doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
          >
          > gray to black.
          >
          >
          >
          > Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
          >
          > Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
          >
          > chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
          >
          > very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
          >
          > spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
          >
          > said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
          >
          > happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
          >
          > an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
          >
          > look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
          >
          > hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
          >
          > lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
          >
          > retouching.
          >
          >
          >
          > H. And on a similar subject. Ever notice that sometime in the past
          >
          > five to ten years there was some rule passed at Eckankar
          Headquarters
          >
          > that every person shown in the Mystic World has to be smiling? I
          >
          > noticed right away when it happened. Once again, it's another
          example
          >
          > of the new paradigm in Eckankar that I call the "Happy-Happy
          >
          > Syndrome." Portray everyone in Eckankar as smiling and you will
          >
          > attract more members to Eckankar. My opinion is that you will
          attract
          >
          > superficial people who are easily swayed by slick marketing.
          >
        • etznab@aol.com
          I understand that I could have been more specific. It s the subject matter of God & Heaven , etc., that almost all religions appear to speak for. Can they
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 5, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            I understand that I could have been more
            specific.

            It's the subject matter of "God" & "Heaven",
            etc., that almost all religions appear to speak
            for. Can they really speak for every individual
            & the experience of every individual, though?.
            Does an organized religion have the power to
            "legislate" and / or define spiritual experience
            and the personal experiences of others?

            Put another way, Does "co-worker with God"
            equate to "co-worker with one particular organ-
            ization and the head of same?"

            I guess it depends on whether one believes
            that "God" is manifest on Earth in the form of
            one person. The problem I have with this is that
            several religions claim representation of "God"
            and not all of them are so omniscient as same,
            especially when it comes to world history. More
            than one company can sell apples and oranges,
            but they aren't necessarily changing the fruit, but
            the names and the prices may vary. So, does it
            change the truth about what apples & oranges
            truly are just because a company gives them so
            many brand names and tries to market them?

            My point is that, in truth, I don't believe there is
            an organization which can change what is "God"
            or the "spiritual planes", what they truly are simply
            by claiming to be the one true representation. But
            this is my personal opinion. That it's an illusion to
            abandon personal experience to the point where
            others become the go-between concerning "God'
            and "universal truths", etc., as if the individual has
            to "buy (from them) a stairway to Heaven.

            Not having one's own land to grow apples and
            oranges might make one dependent on growers
            who do, but I believe the place where "God" and
            "Heaven" exist is the property of every individual
            regardless of what organized religions and their
            leaders might appear to claim they own.

            I didn't always have the same beliefs about the
            Eckankar organization. Eventually though, I just
            accepted the conclusion it's not so much better
            from the Christian religion in which I was raised.
            I've come to accept Eckankar as just one more
            form of organized religion. Imperfections and all.
            I believed it was more perfect once than what it
            appears to be now, until I did some research &
            learned about the "trappings" it has in common
            with all the other forms of organized religion.

            Etznab


            -----Original Message-----
            From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 3:24 am
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Promotion of Eckankar Part
            2 of 3 Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar





            Etznab,



            Sorry, but I don't get what you mean. Eckankar is by definition the

            physical organization that started in 1965, plus all of its

            followers. There isn't any other "Eckankar."



            I think you are changing the subject by saying:



            > I think it is wrong to identify some religious beliefs

            > with an organization by the same name. Eckankar -

            > "the history of it" - probably existed long before 1965-

            > 1970, and this one organization may not hold all the

            > pieces to the puzzle, in a manner of speaking. This

            > one version of "Eckankar" may represent a "facet",

            > at best, of what has been know under various other

            > names and by various other people(s) for centuries!



            You are really sounding like an Eck Vahana to me.



            Especially when you said "I think it is wrong to identify some

            religious beliefs with an organization by the same name." What else

            are we going to identify it with? I really don't understand your

            reasoning.



            I agree that Eckankar doesn't own God merely because they trademarked

            the word "Sugmad." The point is, they act like they do. Eckankar

            teaches that it is the origin of all religions. I agree that

            Sugmad/Ik Onkaar or Eck/Holy Spirit is the origin of all religions,

            but Eckankar essentially says "We Are That!"



            Jonathan



            ***********************



            Etznab@wrote:

            >

            >

            > The term "Eckankar" - as used in your description -

            > appears (to me) an over-generalization & somewhat

            > misleading (no offense to you). The reason being that

            > "everybody has their own Eckankar" ... and so this

            > "Eckankar" - I believe you are referring to - is just

            > "ONE BRAND" of Eckankar. And one largely con-

            > trolled by the "official" organization of Eckankar.

            >

            > I think it is wrong to identify some religious beliefs

            > with an organization by the same name. Eckankar -

            > "the history of it" - probably existed long before 1965-

            > 1970, and this one organization may not hold all the

            > pieces to the puzzle, in a manner of speaking. This

            > one version of "Eckankar" may represent a "facet",

            > at best, of what has been know under various other

            > names and by various other people(s) for centuries!

            > This "one brand" of Eckankar - the official organized

            > version - may not represent all people and / or even

            > the beliefs of all people! Members included!

            >

            > Organized religions speak about "God" & "Heaven",

            > but that does not mean they "own" or can "incorporate"

            > and hold legally bound "God", "Heaven" and all of the

            > beings in all universes to a single officially organized

            > religion on planet Earth.

            >

            > See what I mean?

            >

            > Etznab

            >

            >

            > -----Original Message-----

            > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>

            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

            > Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 7:32 pm

            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Promotion of Eckankar Part

            2 of

            > 3 Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar

            >

            >

            >

            > Promotion of Eckankar - Part 2 of 3 - The Madison Avenue Approach
            to

            >

            > Eckankar

            >

            >

            >

            > A long time ago (20 years?) I listened to a tape by Harold Klemp.
            In

            >

            > this tape he tells the story of how Eckankar had hired an

            advertising

            >

            > firm to give Eckankar advice on how to promote Eckankar. He joked

            >

            > around about the advice they received such as "Send this Rebazar

            Tarz

            >

            > guy on a road trip around the United States." But if you have been

            >

            > observing Eckankar like I have over the past fifteen years (1994-

            2008

            >

            > inclusive) you will notice that Eckankar seems to have actually

            taken

            >

            > a lot of this advertising advice they received seriously. I have

            >

            > coined the term "The Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar" to

            describe

            >

            > this phenomenon.

            >

            >

            >

            > And actually, this phenomenon even goes all the way back to Paul

            >

            > Twitchell who was also concerned about the "image" of Eckankar.

            >

            >

            >

            > A. Paul Twitchell's ''Closely-Cropped Beard Syndrome''

            >

            > Going all the way back to Paul Twitchell there is an interesting

            >

            > observation that I have made. Ever notice how many times the Eck

            >

            > writings mention that the Eck Masters all have "closely-cropped

            >

            > beards?" Did any of these members of Eckankar ever look at a photo

            of

            >

            > Fubbi Quantz or Lai Tsi? Both of these Eck masters have long
            beards.

            >

            > On the surface of things, it would seem that Eckankar has some kind

            >

            > of obsession with neatness. Psychologically speaking, that would

            >

            > indicate some type of underlying guilt complex. But no matter... My

            >

            > personal view is that this is part of the current "Madison-Avenue

            >

            > Approach" to promoting Eckankar to the public. In other words, it
            is

            >

            > part of Eckankar's promotional campaign which wants
            smartly-dressed,

            >

            > dapper Eck Masters, not sloven ones with ragged or shaggy beards.

            >

            > This actually started with Paul Twitchell when he instituted the
            "No

            >

            > Turbans Policy" which is my next topic.

            >

            >

            >

            > B. Paul Twitchell's ''No Turbans Policy''

            >

            > Are Eck masters allowed to wear turbans? It is something that

            members

            >

            > of Eckankar need to ask themselves. In order to clarify why this is

            >

            > true I need to ask everyone the following question: "Do you know

            what

            >

            > the surname "Singh" means? And what that name implies? I will
            answer

            >

            > this question by relating a short conversation that I had with a

            >

            > native of North India.

            >

            >

            >

            > A few weeks ago I was talking to a lady from North India. I asked

            her

            >

            > to clarify Punjabi, Sikhs, and the surname Singh. She told me that

            >

            > Punjabi Province is 55% Hindus, and 45% Sikhs. They are similar

            >

            > religions, but Hindus and Sikhs consider them to be completely

            >

            > different. Sikhism split off from Hinduism about 500 years ago. She

            >

            > said that almost all Sikhs have the surname Singh. The word "Singh"

            >

            > means lion. The name has significance with the history of the

            >

            > religion. Even though she is a Hindu, she knew a lot about Sikhism

            >

            > and explained it all to me, but I forgot what she said. I already

            >

            > knew that virtually all Sikh men in India wear turbans. The one

            thing

            >

            > I forgot to ask is "What language do the Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab

            >

            > Province speak. Wikipedia informed me that everyone in The Punjab

            >

            > speaks Punjabi, both Hindus and Sikhs.

            >

            >

            >

            > The point of this is any time that a person reads an Eckankar book

            >

            > and sees the name Singh, you should be picturing a man from North

            >

            > India wearing a turban. You will also know that he is of the Sikh

            >

            > religion. You would also know that he probably speaks Punjabi. I

            >

            > believe you will be correct 95% of the time providing the man is

            >

            > still living in India.

            >

            >

            >

            > So my question to Eckankar is "Why are there no graphical
            depictions

            >

            > of Eck masters showing them wearing a turban?" My own answer is
            that

            >

            > Americans, even back in the 1960s when Paul T was first formulating

            >

            > Eckankar, have a stereotypical attitude about men from India who

            wear

            >

            > a turban. In America, this image is associated with snake charmers

            >

            > and it is obviously meant to be a negative stereotype. So I
            honestly

            >

            > believe that this is why no one has ever seen a depiction of Sudar

            >

            > Singh or Kirpal Singh in Eckankar's literature. To the subconscious

            >

            > mind of Americans, a man from India wearing a turban is seen as a

            >

            > snake charmer, not a spiritual master.

            >

            >

            >

            > C. "Eckankar looks too much like an Eastern religion" or "Removing

            >

            > the 'strange' words from Eckankar"

            >

            > Over the past ten to fifteen years Eckankar has been systematically

            >

            > de-emphasizing the Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words in Eckankar.

            For

            >

            > example, replacing "Sugmad" with God. This was recently noted by

            >

            > Prometheus for the January 2009 Newsletter.

            >

            >

            >

            > I believe the main reason for this is because Eckankar wants all of

            >

            > these words out of the Introductory literature because they feel

            that

            >

            > it is scaring off newcomers. I see Eckankar eventually removing

            >

            > virtually all of them from all of the Intro material. But Eckankar

            >

            > will leave them in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad in order to add an air of

            >

            > mysteriousness to the writings. Ford Johnson discussed this in his

            >

            > book. Cultwatchers in general have pointed this out too.

            >

            >

            >

            > By the way, I don't think Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words are

            >

            > strange, but let's face it, the majority of Americans probably do.

            As

            >

            > a sidelight. Regarding the word "Eck," a native Hindi speaker from

            >

            > Northern India told me that "Ek" is more the spelling in the
            Punjabi

            >

            > language, whereas "Ik" (pronounced like the English word "ache") is

            >

            > more the spelling in the Hindi language. So "Ek" should really be

            >

            > considered a Punjabi word. Both Hindi and Punjabi are Northern

            Indian

            >

            > languages.

            >

            >

            >

            > D. All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be on glossy

            paper

            >

            >

            >

            > All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be full color on

            >

            > glossy paper. Why? It's all about appearances. Putting a first
            class

            >

            > image forward. In a way I have no problem with that, but they could

            >

            > be putting their resources toward a much more noble, spiritual goal

            >

            > such as removing the many fear-based curses found in their
            writings.

            >

            > Glossy paper wins out over that.

            >

            >

            >

            > E. Eck Centers must look nice

            >

            > Ever notice how Eck centers are always in nice, rented, office

            >

            > complexes? They could save a lot of money by buying an old church

            and

            >

            > using it. The reason they only use only rented, nice office space
            is

            >

            > because of appearances. It puts forth the "correct" upscale, yuppy-

            >

            > like appearance. They are not going to buy an old, run-down church.

            >

            >

            >

            > F. Eck Spiritual Campus

            >

            > Ever wonder why the new building at the Eck Spiritual Campus was

            >

            > built? I have. And the only reason I can come with is that,

            >

            > basically, it's a visitor center for newcomers touring the Eckankar

            >

            > grounds in Chanhassen. It's just for show. So people visiting

            >

            > Eckankar's grounds can say "Wow, look at all these nice buildings.

            >

            > These people are really upscale." I never heard of any member of

            >

            > Eckankar ever taking a class there. A person on the Internet named

            >

            > Dodie Belamy wrote an essay about Eckankar; she stated that it is

            >

            > used to show visitors around .

            >

            >

            >

            > G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo

            >

            > I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have
            noticed

            >

            > over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in

            >

            > Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the

            >

            > room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real

            >

            > flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an
            8

            >

            > by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
            at

            >

            > least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main

            >

            > room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5

            >

            > inches in size.

            >

            >

            >

            > For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the
            "smiley

            >

            > Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously

            >

            > overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were

            >

            > obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more

            pronounced.

            >

            > His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It

            >

            > doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from

            >

            > gray to black.

            >

            >

            >

            > Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-

            >

            > Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more

            >

            > chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a

            >

            > very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious

            >

            > spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously

            >

            > said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-

            >

            > happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with

            >

            > an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you

            >

            > look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His

            >

            > hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile

            >

            > lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the
            digital

            >

            > retouching.

            >

            >

            >

            > H. And on a similar subject. Ever notice that sometime in the past

            >

            > five to ten years there was some rule passed at Eckankar

            Headquarters

            >

            > that every person shown in the Mystic World has to be smiling? I

            >

            > noticed right away when it happened. Once again, it's another

            example

            >

            > of the new paradigm in Eckankar that I call the "Happy-Happy

            >

            > Syndrome." Portray everyone in Eckankar as smiling and you will

            >

            > attract more members to Eckankar. My opinion is that you will

            attract

            >

            > superficial people who are easily swayed by slick marketing.

            >
          • jonathanjohns96
            Etznab, Thanks for all of your comments. Some of the wording in my previous post, specifically, the Eck Vahana comment shouldn t have been said. I would like
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 5, 2009
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              Etznab,
              Thanks for all of your comments. Some of the wording in my previous
              post, specifically, the "Eck Vahana comment" shouldn't have been said.
              I would like to apologize for that. Sometimes it is easy for me to get
              angry. But my anger should be directed at Eckankar, not my fellow
              message board posters who are actively trying to expose Eckankar for
              what it is too.
              Jonathan
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Etznab and All, Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as, our former religions were more, in the beginning, than we discovered them to be, later, on
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 5, 2009
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                Hello Etznab and All,
                Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as,
                our former religions were more, in the beginning,
                than we discovered them to be, later, on down the
                road. Where does the fault lie? It lies with us, them,
                and those people (authority figures) and experts we
                admired and trusted!

                And, it becomes even more difficult to resist these
                and more intimidating influences (tactics) when religions
                control the government (by varying degrees) through
                laws. Yet, it is still possible to dream.

                Question: When did Klemp declare ECKankar as
                a religion publicly? It was when he retitled ECKankar
                as: The Religion of the Light and Sound of God, but
                in what year was that done?

                How many other descriptions of ECKankar were there
                and what were they?

                There was: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST);
                The Path of Total Awareness; ..... What else? I forget!

                I believe that Twitch's real life Master, Kirpal Singh,
                once gave a talk titled, "The Ancient Science of Soul."

                I remember that most changes took place around the
                mid 1980s. I really didn't like that HK called ECKankar
                a "religion" since this is what we rejected when searching
                for a spiritual "path." And, I was confused that Klemp
                used the term "God" instead of "SUGMAD!" I thought,
                Is Harold embarrassed to use the word SUGMAD since
                he was now rubbing elbows with other "religious"
                leaders? It is easier for him to "fit-in" with the other
                local preachers and church leaders when he's using
                the (same) term "GOD" versus using the more accurate
                and honest term of "SUGMAD!"

                Prometheus



                etznab wrote:

                I understand that I could have been more
                specific.

                It's the subject matter of "God" & "Heaven",
                etc., that almost all religions appear to speak
                for. Can they really speak for every individual
                & the experience of every individual, though?.
                Does an organized religion have the power to
                "legislate" and / or define spiritual experience
                and the personal experiences of others?

                Put another way, Does "co-worker with God"
                equate to "co-worker with one particular organ-
                ization and the head of same?"

                I guess it depends on whether one believes
                that "God" is manifest on Earth in the form of
                one person. The problem I have with this is that
                several religions claim representation of "God"
                and not all of them are so omniscient as same,
                especially when it comes to world history. More
                than one company can sell apples and oranges,
                but they aren't necessarily changing the fruit, but
                the names and the prices may vary. So, does it
                change the truth about what apples & oranges
                truly are just because a company gives them so
                many brand names and tries to market them?

                My point is that, in truth, I don't believe there is
                an organization which can change what is "God"
                or the "spiritual planes", what they truly are simply
                by claiming to be the one true representation. But
                this is my personal opinion. That it's an illusion to
                abandon personal experience to the point where
                others become the go-between concerning "God'
                and "universal truths", etc., as if the individual has
                to "buy (from them) a stairway to Heaven.

                Not having one's own land to grow apples and
                oranges might make one dependent on growers
                who do, but I believe the place where "God" and
                "Heaven" exist is the property of every individual
                regardless of what organized religions and their
                leaders might appear to claim they own.

                I didn't always have the same beliefs about the
                Eckankar organization. Eventually though, I just
                accepted the conclusion it's not so much better
                from the Christian religion in which I was raised.
                I've come to accept Eckankar as just one more
                form of organized religion. Imperfections and all.
                I believed it was more perfect once than what it
                appears to be now, until I did some research &
                learned about the "trappings" it has in common
                with all the other forms of organized religion.

                Etznab
              • Jonathan Johns
                Prometheus,   I have a copy of Your Right To Know by Darwin Gross (Copyright 1979).   ECK and ECKANKAR are the only trademarks listed on page ii.   The
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 5, 2009
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                  Prometheus,
                   
                  I have a copy of "Your Right To Know" by Darwin Gross (Copyright 1979).
                   
                  ECK and ECKANKAR are the only trademarks listed on page ii.
                   
                  The Introduction is by Bernadine Burlin who I believe was Darwin's personal secretary. On page III of the Introduction she writes "Eckankar, A Way Of Life, was brought to the waiting world by Sri Paul Twitchell, in 1965."
                   
                  So I believe that "Eckankar, A Way Of Life" was the phrase used in 1979. I am virtually certain that Paul Twitchell used "Eckankar, The Science of Soul Travel."
                   
                  When I joined in 1979 I definitely did not see Eckankar as a religion. As you stated, that is one of the things that attracted me to it.
                   
                  However, on page 2 of "Your Right To Know" one paragraph starts out"ECKANKAR is not a new cult,but the oldest religious teaching in all the world."
                   
                  But I still say that Eckankar as a religion was not emphasized in 1979. This may very well be the only reference to Eckankar as a religion in the entire book.
                   
                  At some point I believe Eckankar came up with "Eckankar, Religion of the Light and Sound." That may have been when it happened.
                   
                  Update: Page 149 of "Your Right To Know" in the "questions" section: "The message of ECK can never be repeated too often, for as a Way of Life, a very Sacred Way of Life, it has proven to be a path millions have hungered for, for many lifetimes."
                   
                  Jonathan


                  --- On Fri, 2/6/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Promotion of Eckankar Part 2 of 3 Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, February 6, 2009, 2:48 AM

                  Hello Etznab and All,
                  Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as,
                  our former religions were more, in the beginning,
                  than we discovered them to be, later, on down the
                  road. Where does the fault lie? It lies with us, them,
                  and those people (authority figures) and experts we
                  admired and trusted!

                  And, it becomes even more difficult to resist these
                  and more intimidating influences (tactics) when religions
                  control the government (by varying degrees) through
                  laws. Yet, it is still possible to dream.

                  Question: When did Klemp declare ECKankar as
                  a religion publicly? It was when he retitled ECKankar
                  as: The Religion of the Light and Sound of God, but
                  in what year was that done?

                  How many other descriptions of ECKankar were there
                  and what were they?

                  There was: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST);
                  The Path of Total Awareness; ..... What else? I forget!

                  I believe that Twitch's real life Master, Kirpal Singh,
                  once gave a talk titled, "The Ancient Science of Soul."

                  I remember that most changes took place around the
                  mid 1980s. I really didn't like that HK called ECKankar
                  a "religion" since this is what we rejected when searching
                  for a spiritual "path." And, I was confused that Klemp
                  used the term "God" instead of "SUGMAD!" I thought,
                  Is Harold embarrassed to use the word SUGMAD since
                  he was now rubbing elbows with other "religious"
                  leaders? It is easier for him to "fit-in" with the other
                  local preachers and church leaders when he's using
                  the (same) term "GOD" versus using the more accurate
                  and honest term of "SUGMAD!"

                  Prometheus

                  etznab wrote:

                  I understand that I could have been more
                  specific.

                  It's the subject matter of "God" & "Heaven",
                  etc., that almost all religions appear to speak
                  for. Can they really speak for every individual
                  & the experience of every individual, though?.
                  Does an organized religion have the power to
                  "legislate" and / or define spiritual experience
                  and the personal experiences of others?

                  Put another way, Does "co-worker with God"
                  equate to "co-worker with one particular organ-
                  ization and the head of same?"

                  I guess it depends on whether one believes
                  that "God" is manifest on Earth in the form of
                  one person. The problem I have with this is that
                  several religions claim representation of "God"
                  and not all of them are so omniscient as same,
                  especially when it comes to world history. More
                  than one company can sell apples and oranges,
                  but they aren't necessarily changing the fruit, but
                  the names and the prices may vary. So, does it
                  change the truth about what apples & oranges
                  truly are just because a company gives them so
                  many brand names and tries to market them?

                  My point is that, in truth, I don't believe there is
                  an organization which can change what is "God"
                  or the "spiritual planes", what they truly are simply
                  by claiming to be the one true representation. But
                  this is my personal opinion. That it's an illusion to
                  abandon personal experience to the point where
                  others become the go-between concerning "God'
                  and "universal truths", etc., as if the individual has
                  to "buy (from them) a stairway to Heaven.

                  Not having one's own land to grow apples and
                  oranges might make one dependent on growers
                  who do, but I believe the place where "God" and
                  "Heaven" exist is the property of every individual
                  regardless of what organized religions and their
                  leaders might appear to claim they own.

                  I didn't always have the same beliefs about the
                  Eckankar organization. Eventually though, I just
                  accepted the conclusion it's not so much better
                  from the Christian religion in which I was raised.
                  I've come to accept Eckankar as just one more
                  form of organized religion. Imperfections and all.
                  I believed it was more perfect once than what it
                  appears to be now, until I did some research &
                  learned about the "trappings" it has in common
                  with all the other forms of organized religion.

                  Etznab


                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Jonathan and All, Actually, in his Square Peg article Twitch discussed making his new creation of Eckankar into a religion. This was probably around
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 6, 2009
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                    Hello Jonathan and All,
                    Actually, in his "Square Peg" article Twitch
                    discussed making his new creation of "Eckankar"
                    into a religion. This was probably around the
                    time Jack Jarvis wrote his other articles on
                    Twitchell. One of the other articles by Jarvis
                    (posted here), is where PT derides women and
                    Negroes, and it was printed in July of 1963.

                    http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/scanindexsubAcss.asp?indexID=153

                    This is interesting because Twitch, also,
                    stated (in another article) that he would
                    never make Eckankar into a "Tax-Exempt"
                    religion/org because he felt that he should
                    pay taxes just like the man in the street. I'll
                    have to look for that post, but I gave that quote
                    and source not too long ago. Anyway I know
                    he used the term "Tax-Exempt," but PT might
                    not have said religion. I think Eckankar did
                    start as a Non-Profit by being listed as an
                    "Educational" org versus Religion. TM was
                    listed as a Non-Profit Educational org. and
                    Not as a Religion, but that was to hide it as
                    a religion to the Western student (chela).

                    Yes, I knew 8th Initiate BB. She was very protective
                    of Darwin's privacy and very loyal... unlike the others.
                    So, it seems like we have these descriptions of PT's
                    creation. I listed two under Darwin, but I'm not
                    certain if he was responsible for both. I forget
                    which one was still used by Klemp until he changed
                    it around the mid to late 1980s.

                    PT: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST)

                    DG: The Path of Total Awareness
                    Eckankar, A Way of Life

                    HK: Eckankar, Religion of the Light and Sound of God

                    Prometheus


                    jonathan wrote:
                    >
                    > Prometheus,
                    >  
                    I have a copy of "Your Right To Know" by Darwin Gross (Copyright 1979).
                    >  
                    > ECK and ECKANKAR are the only trademarks listed on page ii.
                    >  
                    > The Introduction is by Bernadine Burlin who I believe was Darwin's
                    personal secretary. On page III of the Introduction she writes "Eckankar,
                    A Way Of Life, was brought to the waiting world by Sri Paul Twitchell,
                    in 1965."
                    >  
                    > So I believe that "Eckankar, A Way Of Life" was the phrase used
                    in 1979. I am virtually certain that Paul Twitchell used "Eckankar,
                    The Science of Soul Travel."
                    >  
                    > When I joined in 1979 I definitely did not see Eckankar as a religion.
                    As you stated, that is one of the things that attracted me to it.
                    >  
                    > However, on page 2 of "Your Right To Know" one paragraph
                    starts out"ECKANKAR is not a new cult,but the oldest religious
                    teaching in all the world."
                    >  
                    > But I still say that Eckankar as a religion was not emphasized
                    in 1979. This may very well be the only reference to Eckankar as
                    a religion in the entire book.
                    >  
                    > At some point I believe Eckankar came up with "Eckankar,
                    Religion of the Light and Sound." That may have been when
                    it happened.
                    >  
                    > Update: Page 149 of "Your Right To Know" in the "questions"
                    section: "The message of ECK can never be repeated too often,
                    for as a Way of Life, a very Sacred Way of Life, it has proven to be
                    a path millions have hungered for, for many lifetimes."
                    >  
                    > Jonathan
                    >
                    >

                    Prometheus wrote:
                    > Hello Etznab and All,
                    > Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as,
                    > our former religions were more, in the beginning,
                    > than we discovered them to be, later, on down the
                    > road. Where does the fault lie? It lies with us, them,
                    > and those people (authority figures) and experts we
                    > admired and trusted!
                    >
                    > And, it becomes even more difficult to resist these
                    > and more intimidating influences (tactics) when religions
                    > control the government (by varying degrees) through
                    > laws. Yet, it is still possible to dream.
                    >
                    > Question: When did Klemp declare ECKankar as
                    > a religion publicly? It was when he retitled ECKankar
                    > as: The Religion of the Light and Sound of God, but
                    > in what year was that done?
                    >
                    > How many other descriptions of ECKankar were there
                    > and what were they?
                    >
                    > There was: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST);
                    > The Path of Total Awareness; ..... What else? I forget!
                    >
                    > I believe that Twitch's real life Master, Kirpal Singh,
                    > once gave a talk titled, "The Ancient Science of Soul."
                    >
                    > I remember that most changes took place around the
                    > mid 1980s. I really didn't like that HK called ECKankar
                    > a "religion" since this is what we rejected when searching
                    > for a spiritual "path." And, I was confused that Klemp
                    > used the term "God" instead of "SUGMAD!" I thought,
                    > Is Harold embarrassed to use the word SUGMAD since
                    > he was now rubbing elbows with other "religious"
                    > leaders? It is easier for him to "fit-in" with the other
                    > local preachers and church leaders when he's using
                    > the (same) term "GOD" versus using the more accurate
                    > and honest term of "SUGMAD!"
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > etznab wrote:
                    >
                    > I understand that I could have been more
                    > specific.
                    >
                    > It's the subject matter of "God" & "Heaven",
                    > etc., that almost all religions appear to speak
                    > for. Can they really speak for every individual
                    > & the experience of every individual, though?.
                    > Does an organized religion have the power to
                    > "legislate" and / or define spiritual experience
                    > and the personal experiences of others?
                    >
                    > Put another way, Does "co-worker with God"
                    > equate to "co-worker with one particular organ-
                    > ization and the head of same?"
                    >
                    > I guess it depends on whether one believes
                    > that "God" is manifest on Earth in the form of
                    > one person. The problem I have with this is that
                    > several religions claim representation of "God"
                    > and not all of them are so omniscient as same,
                    > especially when it comes to world history. More
                    > than one company can sell apples and oranges,
                    > but they aren't necessarily changing the fruit, but
                    > the names and the prices may vary. So, does it
                    > change the truth about what apples & oranges
                    > truly are just because a company gives them so
                    > many brand names and tries to market them?
                    >
                    > My point is that, in truth, I don't believe there is
                    > an organization which can change what is "God"
                    > or the "spiritual planes", what they truly are simply
                    > by claiming to be the one true representation. But
                    > this is my personal opinion. That it's an illusion to
                    > abandon personal experience to the point where
                    > others become the go-between concerning "God'
                    > and "universal truths", etc., as if the individual has
                    > to "buy (from them) a stairway to Heaven.
                    >
                    > Not having one's own land to grow apples and
                    > oranges might make one dependent on growers
                    > who do, but I believe the place where "God" and
                    > "Heaven" exist is the property of every individual
                    > regardless of what organized religions and their
                    > leaders might appear to claim they own.
                    >
                    > I didn't always have the same beliefs about the
                    > Eckankar organization. Eventually though, I just
                    > accepted the conclusion it's not so much better
                    > from the Christian religion in which I was raised.
                    > I've come to accept Eckankar as just one more
                    > form of organized religion. Imperfections and all.
                    > I believed it was more perfect once than what it
                    > appears to be now, until I did some research &
                    > learned about the "trappings" it has in common
                    > with all the other forms of organized religion.
                    >
                    > Etznab
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Jonathan and All, This is a very good summary. I thought I d add P.T.s original descriptions of the EK Masters that tell of high turbans and long
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
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                      Hello Jonathan and All,
                      This is a very good summary. I thought I'd
                      add P.T.s original descriptions of the EK Masters
                      that tell of "high turbans" and "long beards."

                      BTW- The main difference between Sikhs and
                      Hindus is that the Sikhs rejected the caste system
                      that is still practiced by Hindus even today!

                      Further down I'd like to make a few more comments
                      about ECK Centers, etc.

                      Prometheus

                      From post #4275:

                      Hello All,
                      To sum it up, it seems Klemp got it wrong
                      again! PT states that YAUBL "looks very old"
                      and "he doesn't walk upright" while FUBBI
                      "wears a High Turban," and is "SIX FEET
                      THREE" and that's without the "high turban!"


                      Descriptions of ECK Masters

                      From "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                      Living ECK Master" pages 109-113.

                      PT: "Now, Sudar Singh was a pupil
                      of Rebazar Tarzs, and Rebazar Tarzs
                      was a pupil of Fubbi Quantz, and
                      Fubbi Quantz was a pupil or a chela
                      of Yaubl Sacabi." [pg. 111]

                      **********************YAUBL SACABI**********************

                      YAUBL Sacabi -- According to ________YAUBL Sacabi -- According to
                      PT in "Difficulties:"_______________HK in The ECKankar LexiCON:

                      "FIVE FEET EIGHT or TEN"_________According to the picture he's
                      "sort of a square figure"_____________bald and looks 40-50 years
                      "he speaks wit great dignity"_________Also, HK claims he was alive
                      _______________________________in "2000-1700 B.C." which
                      "old... I would say, 2000-3000 ______means he's 3700-4000 years
                      years"__________________________old Not "2000-3000 years" old.
                      "He lives in a place called Agam______HK says he's not "very old"
                      Des"___________________________looking, thus, he's not "bent
                      ________________________________over" as PT stated.

                      [Note: Agam Des/Lok is the 9th Plane]

                      "he is the leader of this group________Whose right? PT or HK?
                      who are the God-Eaters."_______________
                      "His FACE is of a LIGHT COLOR"____*YAUBL Sacabi -- According to
                      "he has very PALE BLUE EYES"_______HK in "Those Wonderful ECK
                      "He looks very ascetic"_____________Masters:"

                      "he LOOKS VERY OLD"_____________"A strong nose, thick neck,
                      "he Doesn't WALK UPRIGHT...________well-developed muscles in
                      he WALKS VERY SLOWLY"____________arms and chest outline a
                      "a very high, well, I don't____________capable, rugged appearance...
                      call it A HIGH VOICE, but I'd________bald head looks a bit like
                      say a medium voice. It speaks________a brass dome [p.145]...
                      in a higher pitch than most _________a robust man of about average
                      ______________________________height, a sturdy specimen...
                      voices do... he has very long ________[p. 133] a short maroon robe
                      slender hands "he wears a sort_______and sturdy sandals with
                      of a sandal.. a TOGA TYPE of_________wide straps." [p. 148]
                      GOWN."

                      [PT never mentions, here, that Yaubl was BALD]

                      "he likes to sit in a corner at what
                      we would call, a public market."
                      "He sometimes goes into the temple
                      and talks from a podium"
                      "There's a light that shines over him
                      as if an electrical bulb has been put
                      inside of him and turned on and the
                      effervescence of the light just shines
                      out from him."

                      FYI- Here's some comments from page 151 in "Those Wonderful
                      ECK Masters." Klemp is telling a story where a chela has a "vision"
                      and met an entity "the Indian guide was Yaubl Sacabi in DISGUISE."
                      Next, she meets Yaubl in a class he's teaching where he's "telling
                      of the enormous DANGER of WHITE MAGIC, even of dabbling in
                      it. [How about Black Magic is it as dangerous? BTW- "Disguising"
                      oneself as an "Indian guide" isn't dabbling in White Magic?] Yaubl
                      continues, "He pointed out that when someone thinks he's above
                      another, it is a kind of White Magic, too, and has consequences."
                      [Thus, the EK Spiritual Hierarchy and, especially, the RESA
                      Hierarchy with the initiation levels and Positions of Power above
                      others is a form of White Magic... what are the consequences?]

                      **********************FUBBI QUANTZ*************************

                      FUBBI Quantz -- According to PT_____FUBBI Quantz -- According to
                      in "Difficulties:"______________________HK in The ECKankar Lexicon:

                      "a rather SERIOUS PERSONALITY"_____Fubbi's been around since "500 B.C."
                      "there are times when he's a_________which means he's 2500 years old,
                      humorous sort of a person."__________and Not 1000 years old as PT said!
                      "He wears a HIGH TURBAN"_________There's No "Turban" and certainly not
                      "he wears a LONG WHITE ROBE."______a "high" one! And No, he was not the
                      "he doesn't do much appearing_______"spiritual guide" for Columbus nor
                      to people"_________________________did they search for "protein" in order
                      "He's VERY BUSY there in the__________to revitalize depleted nutrition for
                      teachings of The Shariyat-Ki-_________Europeans. So who's right again...
                      Sugmad" "He is awfully busy in________PT or HK? Oops! I forgot! Klemp
                      several ways"he has an age which______copied the descriptions from PT's
                      is somewhat older than most of the____ECKankar Dictionary!
                      ages."
                      "I would say the man... is close to
                      1,000 years of age."

                      "He came back as a co-worker in____[What's with this? He came back
                      the early days, maybe 500-600______again after a long vacation on
                      years ago."________________________the Inner Planes or what?]

                      "He is VERY TALL, he's about_________[Does Fubbi look tall? Were
                      SIX FEET THREE"__________________people that tall back in those
                      "very swarthy, has long hands,___________days? Maybe Goliath was that
                      and very pointed feet"________________tall, but I'd say PT was making
                      "wears a LONG WHITE ROBE"__________it all up! Hey! Maybe that
                      "a VERY SERIOUS sort of a man."______"High Turban" made him 6'3"!]

                      "He will joke and laugh at times"_____*Fubbi Quantz According to HK in
                      "You feel a lightness about him that____"Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
                      you do around Sudar Singh."
                      "Fubbi Quantz has a DEEP ROLLING____"a tall, elderly man with white hair
                      VOICE."____________________________and beard, and a gentle smile...
                      "He looks upon everything in life_______a WHITE ROBE that reaches WELL
                      VERY SERIOUSLY"____________________BELOW HIS KNEES... PT once
                      "he has a very strong mental trait"_______described him as having a
                      "he takes all of his duties_______________LATERN JAW."
                      EXCEEDINGLY SERIOUS."_____________"long white hair" [pg. 29] "his
                      _________________________________most striking feature was a
                      _________________________________LONG WHITE BEARD." [pg. 41]


                      NOTE: On page 36 of TWEM Klemp
                      tells a story of an ECKist who, at first,
                      confused FUBBI with JESUS. I thought
                      it was GOPAL DAS that they confused
                      with JESUS!


                      BTW- In the 2000 copyright of the
                      combined printing of the Shariyats
                      Books 1&2 on page X is the following:

                      "BOOK ONE One is the first section of
                      these works, which was DICTATED by
                      FUBBI QUANTZ, the great ECK Master
                      who serves at the Katsupari Monastery
                      in northern Tibet."

                      "BOOK TWO, is the second section of
                      these works of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad,
                      which was DICTATED by YAUBL SACABI,
                      the great ECK Master who serves at the
                      Gare-Hira Temple of Golden Wisdom at
                      AGAM DES in the Hindu Kush mountains."

                      Question: Why is Yaubl the guardian of
                      the second (Astral) plane Book Two of
                      the Shariyat when he resides on Agam
                      Des, the 9th Plane? And Why is Gopal
                      Das the guardian of the "fourth book"
                      of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad on the "Astral
                      Plane." [Shariyat 2, CH. 9] Shouldn't the
                      "fourth book" be on the Mental Plane?
                      And, why hasn't Gopal "dictated" the
                      "fourth book" to Klemp?

                      Here are some interesting tidbits I found
                      in the Shariyat 2, CH. 4:

                      "Fubbi Quantz, Rebazar Tarzs, and other
                      ECK Masters, all having attained a high
                      degree of consciousness well beyond the
                      level of man, appear differently to man."

                      Is that a disclaimer, or another Catch-22?

                      "The state of the ECK Master is that he must
                      be as perfect as the ECK or that which is known
                      as the Sugmad... His human body, through which
                      he operates, is in a state of health and is retained
                      as long as his position is necessary within this
                      physical world, several hundred years if necessary.
                      Spiritually, the Living ECK Master lives in a state
                      of God Consciousness for twenty-four hours a
                      day. Also he has developed, but doesn't seek,
                      what is known as the various siddhis powers,
                      due to his high state of evolution."

                      BTW- In Klemp's Lexicon he defines "siddhis" as:
                      "Psychic powers, spiritual powers, supernormal
                      powers, prophecy, healing, etc."

                      Prometheus

                      jonathan wrote:
                      >
                      Promotion of Eckankar - Part 2 of 3 - The Madison Avenue
                      Approach to Eckankar
                      >
                      > A long time ago (20 years?) I listened to a tape by Harold Klemp. In
                      > this tape he tells the story of how Eckankar had hired an advertising
                      > firm to give Eckankar advice on how to promote Eckankar. He joked
                      > around about the advice they received such as "Send this Rebazar Tarz
                      > guy on a road trip around the United States." But if you have been
                      > observing Eckankar like I have over the past fifteen years (1994-2008
                      > inclusive) you will notice that Eckankar seems to have actually taken
                      > a lot of this advertising advice they received seriously. I have
                      > coined the term "The Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar"
                      > to describe this phenomenon.

                      *P: Yes, Klemp got a big laugh from the EK Seminar crowd when he
                      mentioned that these PR people wanted to send Rebazar out on the
                      road to promote ECKankar. The real laugh was on us! We were actually
                      laughing at our own ignorance while Klemp was having an even bigger
                      laugh at our gullibility in believing in a "500 year old" Master that has
                      never shown himself (to even ECKists) in his physical body in all of these
                      years! Amazing!

                      > And actually, this phenomenon even goes all the way back to Paul
                      > Twitchell who was also concerned about the "image" of Eckankar.
                      >
                      > A. Paul Twitchell's ''Closely-Cropped Beard Syndrome''
                      > Going all the way back to Paul Twitchell there is an interesting
                      > observation that I have made. Ever notice how many times the Eck
                      > writings mention that the Eck Masters all have "closely-cropped
                      > beards?" Did any of these members of Eckankar ever look at a photo
                      > of Fubbi Quantz or Lai Tsi? Both of these Eck masters have long beards.
                      > On the surface of things, it would seem that Eckankar has some kind
                      > of obsession with neatness. Psychologically speaking, that would
                      > indicate some type of underlying guilt complex. But no matter... My
                      > personal view is that this is part of the current "Madison-Avenue
                      > Approach" to promoting Eckankar to the public. In other words, it is
                      > part of Eckankar's promotional campaign which wants smartly-dressed,
                      > dapper Eck Masters, not sloven ones with ragged or shaggy beards.
                      > This actually started with Paul Twitchell when he instituted the "No
                      > Turbans Policy" which is my next topic.

                      *P: There is a dress code for ECK Leaders. Apparently, only "EK Masters"
                      can look like bums!

                      > B. Paul Twitchell's ''No Turbans Policy''
                      > Are Eck masters allowed to wear turbans? It is something that members
                      > of Eckankar need to ask themselves. In order to clarify why this is
                      > true I need to ask everyone the following question: "Do you know what
                      > the surname "Singh" means? And what that name implies? I will answer
                      > this question by relating a short conversation that I had with a
                      > native of North India.

                      *P: What's even more strange is the HIGH TURBAN like the one FUBBI
                      wears (according to Twitchell).

                      > A few weeks ago I was talking to a lady from North India. I asked her
                      > to clarify Punjabi, Sikhs, and the surname Singh. She told me that
                      > Punjabi Province is 55% Hindus, and 45% Sikhs. They are similar
                      > religions, but Hindus and Sikhs consider them to be completely
                      > different. Sikhism split off from Hinduism about 500 years ago. She
                      > said that almost all Sikhs have the surname Singh. The word "Singh"
                      > means lion. The name has significance with the history of the
                      > religion. Even though she is a Hindu, she knew a lot about Sikhism
                      > and explained it all to me, but I forgot what she said. I already
                      > knew that virtually all Sikh men in India wear turbans. The one thing
                      > I forgot to ask is "What language do the Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab
                      > Province speak. Wikipedia informed me that everyone in The Punjab
                      > speaks Punjabi, both Hindus and Sikhs.

                      *P: Since she was Hindu she probably didn't want to point out
                      that she still believes in a caste system (but won't admit to it)
                      and that the Sikhs rejected the caste system and that this was
                      the main factor for causing this sect (religion) to be created
                      in the first place.


                      > The point of this is any time that a person reads an Eckankar book
                      > and sees the name Singh, you should be picturing a man from North
                      > India wearing a turban. You will also know that he is of the Sikh
                      > religion. You would also know that he probably speaks Punjabi. I
                      > believe you will be correct 95% of the time providing the man is
                      > still living in India.

                      *P: True. Klemp has modernized and sanitized ECKankar to make
                      it more acceptable and this helps to make it more palatable in order
                      to swallow all of those lies.

                      > So my question to Eckankar is "Why are there no graphical depictions
                      > of Eck masters showing them wearing a turban?" My own answer is that
                      > Americans, even back in the 1960s when Paul T was first formulating
                      > Eckankar, have a stereotypical attitude about men from India who wear
                      > a turban. In America, this image is associated with snake charmers
                      > and it is obviously meant to be a negative stereotype. So I honestly
                      > believe that this is why no one has ever seen a depiction of Sudar
                      > Singh or Kirpal Singh in Eckankar's literature. To the subconscious
                      > mind of Americans, a man from India wearing a turban is seen as a
                      > snake charmer, not a spiritual master.
                      >
                      > C. "Eckankar looks too much like an Eastern religion" or "Removing
                      > the 'strange' words from Eckankar"

                      > Over the past ten to fifteen years Eckankar has been systematically
                      > de-emphasizing the Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words in Eckankar. For
                      > example, replacing "Sugmad" with God. This was recently noted by
                      > Prometheus for the January 2009 Newsletter.
                      >
                      > I believe the main reason for this is because Eckankar wants all of
                      > these words out of the Introductory literature because they feel that
                      > it is scaring off newcomers. I see Eckankar eventually removing
                      > virtually all of them from all of the Intro material. But Eckankar
                      > will leave them in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad in order to add an air of
                      > mysteriousness to the writings. Ford Johnson discussed this in his
                      > book. Cultwatchers in general have pointed this out too.
                      >
                      > By the way, I don't think Hindi, Persian, and Punjabi words are
                      > strange, but let's face it, the majority of Americans probably do. As
                      > a sidelight. Regarding the word "Eck," a native Hindi speaker from
                      > Northern India told me that "Ek" is more the spelling in the Punjabi
                      > language, whereas "Ik" (pronounced like the English word "ache") is
                      > more the spelling in the Hindi language. So "Ek" should really be
                      > considered a Punjabi word. Both Hindi and Punjabi are Northern Indian
                      > languages.

                      *P: Well, the word change, to that of a "common language," is merely
                      to Westernize ECKankar even more so! Klemp, and most Americans,
                      as well as, non-Sikhs and non-Hindus are more comfortable by not
                      using foreign religious terminology for use with their own religion.
                      Yet, ECKists should all know that Sikhism and Hinduism are the true
                      roots of ECKankar. Klemp continues to hide the fact that Twitch created
                      ECKankar in the images of Ruhani Satsang and Radhasoami.

                      > D. All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be on glossy paper
                      >
                      > All Eckankar publications from Headquarters must be full color on
                      > glossy paper. Why? It's all about appearances. Putting a first class
                      > image forward. In a way I have no problem with that, but they could
                      > be putting their resources toward a much more noble, spiritual goal
                      > such as removing the many fear-based curses found in their writings.
                      > Glossy paper wins out over that.

                      *P: There's also the Style Sheet Guidelines that tell local ECKists
                      what is proper and what is not when it comes to printing posters,
                      EK newsletters, ads in newspapers, etc. You'd be surprised at how
                      many RESAs don't know or follow these and other ESC Guidelines.

                      > E. Eck Centers must look nice
                      > Ever notice how Eck centers are always in nice, rented, office
                      > complexes? They could save a lot of money by buying an old church
                      > and using it. The reason they only use only rented, nice office space
                      > is because of appearances. It puts forth the "correct" upscale, yuppy-
                      > like appearance. They are not going to buy an old, run-down church.

                      *P: Local EK areas don't have that much money to buy, restore, and
                      maintain buildings, and for phone, gas, electric and insurance. And,
                      the local area (city) has to be self-sufficient (not need help from the
                      state's Satsang Society) with money, or else, there may end up being
                      just one centrally located EK Center for the whole state or country!
                      These EK Centers still have to do the Vahana thing and do intros and
                      buy materials, rent rooms, rent booths, etc. There has to be other
                      monies set aside for these and other things plus a reserve. And, let's
                      not forget that all of this money is not theirs or the Satsang Society's!
                      All money, assets, and materials were "donated" to and belong to the
                      ESC... there is No local or state Satsang Society, or RESA ownership
                      of anything. It all belongs to Klemp and Company and HK has the
                      last word.

                      > F. Eck Spiritual Campus
                      > Ever wonder why the new building at the Eck Spiritual Campus was
                      > built? I have. And the only reason I can come with is that,
                      > basically, it's a visitor center for newcomers touring the Eckankar
                      > grounds in Chanhassen. It's just for show. So people visiting
                      > Eckankar's grounds can say "Wow, look at all these nice buildings.
                      > These people are really upscale." I never heard of any member of
                      > Eckankar ever taking a class there. A person on the Internet named
                      > Dodie Belamy wrote an essay about Eckankar; she stated that it is
                      > used to show visitors around .

                      *P: IMO the new ESC building was built in order to shorten the
                      drive for most of the staffers working there.. including Joan and
                      Peter. I think that the old ESC was in St. Cloud (I visited there once
                      in the 1980's for a private tour). Now, most of these ESC higher ups
                      live in Eden Prairie. Plus, having everything in the same location
                      is convenient. But, I will have to say that the guilted staircase does
                      look rather Gauche and is typical of the overspending for appearance
                      sake that churches (religions) tend to do to make the building seem
                      "Holy" for their weak minded believers. In a way it's also a competition,
                      or pissing contest among Preaches/Popes/LEMs and their big fat egos!


                      > G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
                      > I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
                      > over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
                      > Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
                      > room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
                      > flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
                      > by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
                      > at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main
                      > room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
                      > inches in size.

                      *P: Well, there are, also, Guidelines for EK Centers and "suggestions,"
                      with pictures, as to how these centers should be set up. Plus, one
                      of Klemp's photos is larger than the others because this 14x17 is
                      a special "Donation" photo which means there was a minimum cost
                      ($25) but no maximum. At our EK Center I had his HK's placed in
                      the center, and higher, than the other ECK Masters since he was their
                      boss. We kept the larger Donation Photo on a stand next to some silk
                      flowers (sometimes a chela would bring in some freshly cut flowers).
                      Since we were required (by Guidelines) to keep the current "official"
                      photo displayed we ended up having a few extra older photos in the
                      back office where we, also, kept a 5x7 black and white of Twitch.
                      However, my opinion is that Klemp hasn't changed his "official"
                      photo for years now because he's so vain! Klemp uses the younger
                      looking "official" photo in the EK Youth Letter of Light and on The
                      Wisdom Notes page and else where!


                      > For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
                      > Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
                      > overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
                      > obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.
                      > His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
                      > doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
                      > gray to black.

                      *P: This is the older "Official" photo that hasn't been updated. Thus,
                      this is why he looks younger. The photo hasn't been touched up, but
                      it does show Klemp's vanity with his looks. He was called down for this
                      once, long ago, when he switched to contacts instead of eye glasses!
                      Soon, he went back to his eye glasses but not before having an "official"
                      photo made showing him in a Hawaiian shirt and without glasses!

                      On retouch. Of course Klemp has retouches done. IMO the most
                      retouches were done recently on those new photos of the ECK Masters
                      and this includes Klemp's own photo!


                      > Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
                      > Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
                      > chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
                      > very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
                      > spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
                      > said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
                      > happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
                      > an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
                      > look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
                      > hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
                      > lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
                      > retouching.
                      >
                      > H. And on a similar subject. Ever notice that sometime in the past
                      > five to ten years there was some rule passed at Eckankar Headquarters
                      > that every person shown in the Mystic World has to be smiling? I
                      > noticed right away when it happened. Once again, it's another example
                      > of the new paradigm in Eckankar that I call the "Happy-Happy
                      > Syndrome." Portray everyone in Eckankar as smiling and you will
                      > attract more members to Eckankar. My opinion is that you will attract
                      > superficial people who are easily swayed by slick marketing.

                      *P: I think that superficial people will be/are drawn into
                      ECKankar due to the Status that initiation rank and titles
                      now have. Look at these H.I.s! Are those "spiritual" people
                      or actors? True, some are very good at what they do but
                      they are very good actors too! This is because they are more
                      delusional and live with and in their fantasy world more than
                      others. They happily skip along with a basket full of promises
                      just like all other religions hand out to their fearful, mindless,
                      and dependent followers. I wonder, why do H.I. ECKists still
                      think that they need Klemp after 30 plus years. Haven't they
                      learned to be on their own and fly with their own wings!
                    • D.R.D.
                      Jonothan, I think maybe this article expresses some of the ideas I was contemplating a little better. E.S.A., I d would like to contribute this one to the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
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                        Jonothan,

                        I think maybe this article expresses
                        some of the ideas I was contemplating a
                        little better.

                        E.S.A.,

                        I'd would like to contribute this one
                        to the links section.

                        http://www.thepearlsofwisdom.net/Pearls_Spirits/spiritofprof_Churchian
                        ityToday.html

                        Might have to type out the link if it
                        doesn't get all highlighted.

                        Etznab
                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
                        <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Etznab,
                        > Thanks for all of your comments. Some of the wording in my previous
                        > post, specifically, the "Eck Vahana comment" shouldn't have been
                        said.
                        > I would like to apologize for that. Sometimes it is easy for me to
                        get
                        > angry. But my anger should be directed at Eckankar, not my fellow
                        > message board posters who are actively trying to expose Eckankar
                        for
                        > what it is too.
                        > Jonathan
                        >
                      • D.R.D.
                        Prometheus, I think the link I sent in speaks a lot of the same language I ve seen here and in other places. One might have to make exceptions for the
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Prometheus,

                          I think the link I sent in speaks
                          a lot of the same language I've seen
                          here and in other places.

                          One might have to make exceptions
                          for the "Christian" context or terms,
                          but the basic message, beyond all the
                          semantics, speaks volumes, IMO.

                          Etznab

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Etznab and All,
                          > Most of us believed that ECKankar, as well as,
                          > our former religions were more, in the beginning,
                          > than we discovered them to be, later, on down the
                          > road. Where does the fault lie? It lies with us, them,
                          > and those people (authority figures) and experts we
                          > admired and trusted!
                          >
                          > And, it becomes even more difficult to resist these
                          > and more intimidating influences (tactics) when religions
                          > control the government (by varying degrees) through
                          > laws. Yet, it is still possible to dream.
                          >
                          > Question: When did Klemp declare ECKankar as
                          > a religion publicly? It was when he retitled ECKankar
                          > as: The Religion of the Light and Sound of God, but
                          > in what year was that done?
                          >
                          > How many other descriptions of ECKankar were there
                          > and what were they?
                          >
                          > There was: The Ancient Science of Soul Travel (ASOST);
                          > The Path of Total Awareness; ..... What else? I forget!
                          >
                          > I believe that Twitch's real life Master, Kirpal Singh,
                          > once gave a talk titled, "The Ancient Science of Soul."
                          >
                          > I remember that most changes took place around the
                          > mid 1980s. I really didn't like that HK called ECKankar
                          > a "religion" since this is what we rejected when searching
                          > for a spiritual "path." And, I was confused that Klemp
                          > used the term "God" instead of "SUGMAD!" I thought,
                          > Is Harold embarrassed to use the word SUGMAD since
                          > he was now rubbing elbows with other "religious"
                          > leaders? It is easier for him to "fit-in" with the other
                          > local preachers and church leaders when he's using
                          > the (same) term "GOD" versus using the more accurate
                          > and honest term of "SUGMAD!"
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > etznab wrote:
                          >
                          > I understand that I could have been more
                          > specific.
                          >
                          > It's the subject matter of "God" & "Heaven",
                          > etc., that almost all religions appear to speak
                          > for. Can they really speak for every individual
                          > & the experience of every individual, though?.
                          > Does an organized religion have the power to
                          > "legislate" and / or define spiritual experience
                          > and the personal experiences of others?
                          >
                          > Put another way, Does "co-worker with God"
                          > equate to "co-worker with one particular organ-
                          > ization and the head of same?"
                          >
                          > I guess it depends on whether one believes
                          > that "God" is manifest on Earth in the form of
                          > one person. The problem I have with this is that
                          > several religions claim representation of "God"
                          > and not all of them are so omniscient as same,
                          > especially when it comes to world history. More
                          > than one company can sell apples and oranges,
                          > but they aren't necessarily changing the fruit, but
                          > the names and the prices may vary. So, does it
                          > change the truth about what apples & oranges
                          > truly are just because a company gives them so
                          > many brand names and tries to market them?
                          >
                          > My point is that, in truth, I don't believe there is
                          > an organization which can change what is "God"
                          > or the "spiritual planes", what they truly are simply
                          > by claiming to be the one true representation. But
                          > this is my personal opinion. That it's an illusion to
                          > abandon personal experience to the point where
                          > others become the go-between concerning "God'
                          > and "universal truths", etc., as if the individual has
                          > to "buy (from them) a stairway to Heaven.
                          >
                          > Not having one's own land to grow apples and
                          > oranges might make one dependent on growers
                          > who do, but I believe the place where "God" and
                          > "Heaven" exist is the property of every individual
                          > regardless of what organized religions and their
                          > leaders might appear to claim they own.
                          >
                          > I didn't always have the same beliefs about the
                          > Eckankar organization. Eventually though, I just
                          > accepted the conclusion it's not so much better
                          > from the Christian religion in which I was raised.
                          > I've come to accept Eckankar as just one more
                          > form of organized religion. Imperfections and all.
                          > I believed it was more perfect once than what it
                          > appears to be now, until I did some research &
                          > learned about the "trappings" it has in common
                          > with all the other forms of organized religion.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Jonathan and All, Jonathan, you referred to HK s large Smiley Bob photo below. Was that the same infamous Enzyte Bob? I just saw an En Z yte
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Jonathan and All,
                            Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo
                            below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just
                            saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded
                            me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"
                            and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't
                            that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and
                            Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It
                            seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's
                            why they're "really" smiling!

                            If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob

                            http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte----jail.html

                            Prometheus


                            Jonathan wrote:

                            G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
                            I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
                            over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
                            Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
                            room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
                            flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
                            by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
                            at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main
                            room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
                            inches in size.

                            For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
                            Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
                            overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
                            obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.
                            His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
                            doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
                            gray to black.

                            Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
                            Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
                            chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
                            very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
                            spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
                            said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
                            happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
                            an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
                            look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
                            hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
                            lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
                            retouching.
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            You guys are too funny. I mean that in a good way. I saw the photo :) Etznab ... From: prometheus_973 To:
                            Message 13 of 18 , Feb 7, 2009
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                              You guys are too funny. I mean that in a
                              good way. I saw the photo :)

                              Etznab

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 6:54 pm
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Enzyte "Smiley Bob" Looks Similar
                              to Smiley Harry!



                              Hello Jonathan and All,

                              Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo

                              below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just

                              saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded

                              me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"

                              and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't

                              that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and

                              Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It

                              seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's

                              why they're "really" smiling!



                              If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob



                              http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte----jail.html



                              Prometheus



                              Jonathan wrote:



                              G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo

                              I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed

                              over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in

                              Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the

                              room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real

                              flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8

                              by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years

                              at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main

                              room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5

                              inches in size.



                              For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley

                              Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously

                              overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were

                              obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.

                              His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It

                              doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from

                              gray to black.



                              Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-

                              Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more

                              chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a

                              very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious

                              spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously

                              said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-

                              happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with

                              an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you

                              look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His

                              hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile

                              lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital

                              retouching.
                            • jonathanjohns96
                              Prometheus and Etznab, Yes, that s where the term Smiley Bob came from. I m glad you two appreciate the humor. But like most good comedians I think I may
                              Message 14 of 18 , Feb 8, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Prometheus and Etznab,
                                Yes, that's where the term "Smiley Bob" came from. I'm glad you two
                                appreciate the humor. But like most good comedians I think I may
                                have "stolen my material." I think I saw the term over on the
                                EckankarTruth message board first. But it is absoulutely true that I
                                had already noticed the similarity between Klemp's photo and the guy
                                in the Enzyte commercial.
                                Jonathan

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > You guys are too funny. I mean that in a
                                > good way. I saw the photo :)
                                >
                                > Etznab
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 6:54 pm
                                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Enzyte "Smiley Bob" Looks
                                Similar
                                > to Smiley Harry!
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hello Jonathan and All,
                                >
                                > Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo
                                >
                                > below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just
                                >
                                > saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded
                                >
                                > me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"
                                >
                                > and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't
                                >
                                > that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and
                                >
                                > Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It
                                >
                                > seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's
                                >
                                > why they're "really" smiling!
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte-
                                ---jail.html
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Jonathan wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
                                >
                                > I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
                                >
                                > over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
                                >
                                > Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
                                >
                                > room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
                                >
                                > flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
                                >
                                > by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
                                >
                                > at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the
                                main
                                >
                                > room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
                                >
                                > inches in size.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
                                >
                                > Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
                                >
                                > overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
                                >
                                > obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more
                                pronounced.
                                >
                                > His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
                                >
                                > doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
                                >
                                > gray to black.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
                                >
                                > Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
                                >
                                > chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
                                >
                                > very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
                                >
                                > spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
                                >
                                > said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
                                >
                                > happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
                                >
                                > an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
                                >
                                > look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
                                >
                                > hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
                                >
                                > lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
                                >
                                > retouching.
                                >
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Etznab, Jonathan, and All, I really didn t see the other posts on another site about Smiling Bob. Jonathan s comments about Klemp s smiling photos,
                                Message 15 of 18 , Feb 8, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello Etznab, Jonathan, and All,
                                  I really didn't see the other posts on
                                  another site about "Smiling Bob."

                                  Jonathan's comments about Klemp's
                                  smiling photos, "smiley Bob" and the
                                  fact that this was still in my thoughts
                                  when an Enzyte commercial came on
                                  TV is what "connected the dots" and
                                  "turned on the light bulb" for me.

                                  I still wasn't certain if the reference
                                  to "Smiley Bob" and Klemp had anything
                                  to do with that En"Z"yte commercial.

                                  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Enzyte+Bob&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

                                  http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte----jail.ht\
                                  ml

                                  To see another likeness of HK just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob

                                  Prometheus


                                  etznab wrote:

                                  You guys are too funny. I mean that in a
                                  good way. I saw the photo : )

                                  Etznab


                                  Prometheus wrote:

                                  Hello Jonathan and All,

                                  Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo

                                  below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just

                                  saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded

                                  me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"

                                  and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't

                                  that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and

                                  Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It

                                  seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's

                                  why they're "really" smiling!



                                  If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob



                                  http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte----jail.ht\
                                  ml

                                  Prometheus



                                  Jonathan wrote:

                                  G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo

                                  I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed

                                  over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in

                                  Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the

                                  room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real

                                  flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8

                                  by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years

                                  at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the main

                                  room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5

                                  inches in size.



                                  For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley

                                  Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously

                                  overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were

                                  obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more pronounced.

                                  His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It

                                  doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from

                                  gray to black.



                                  Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-

                                  Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more

                                  chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a

                                  very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious

                                  spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously

                                  said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-

                                  happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with

                                  an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you

                                  look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His

                                  hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile

                                  lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital

                                  retouching.
                                • jonathanjohns96
                                  Prometheus, In my original post in this thread, yes, I was saying that Harold Klemp s photo with the big, exaggerated, plastic smile reminded me of Smiling
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Feb 9, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Prometheus,

                                    In my original post in this thread, yes, I was saying that Harold
                                    Klemp's photo with the big, exaggerated, plastic smile reminded me
                                    of "Smiling Bob" in the Enzyte commercials. I was making a direct
                                    comparison of the two.

                                    I searched EckankarTruth. I did find a post by Sharon on December 21,
                                    2008:

                                    ==================
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/message/7095
                                    "Hmmmm....you know, in the past I've compared ekult to those ads for
                                    products claiming you can increase your bust/penis several inches
                                    overnight. Now, those "Smiling Bob" commercials are hilarious, and
                                    claim they have millions of satisfied customers - but where's the
                                    *real* proof? Any scientific studies?" [Sharon]
                                    ==================

                                    Although she mentions "Smiling Bob," she doesn't specifically compare
                                    Harold's photo to Smiling Bob in the Enzyte commercial.

                                    Maybe I did make that part up. Oh well, I guess I may go down in
                                    history for something after all. I'm not sure why I thought I saw it
                                    somewhere else.

                                    btw, it appears that people refer to the guy in the Enzyte commercial
                                    as "Smiling Bob," not my version "Smiley Bob." Even Wikipedia
                                    mentions "Similin' Bob."

                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzyte
                                    "Enzyte is widely advertised on US television as "the once daily
                                    tablet for natural male enhancement". The commercials feature a
                                    character known as "Smilin' Bob", who always wears a smile that is
                                    implied to be caused by the enhancing effects of Enzyte; these
                                    advertisements feature double entendres."

                                    Jonathan


                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                                    <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Etznab, Jonathan, and All,
                                    > I really didn't see the other posts on
                                    > another site about "Smiling Bob."
                                    >
                                    > Jonathan's comments about Klemp's
                                    > smiling photos, "smiley Bob" and the
                                    > fact that this was still in my thoughts
                                    > when an Enzyte commercial came on
                                    > TV is what "connected the dots" and
                                    > "turned on the light bulb" for me.
                                    >
                                    > I still wasn't certain if the reference
                                    > to "Smiley Bob" and Klemp had anything
                                    > to do with that En"Z"yte commercial.
                                    >
                                    > http://www.google.com/search?
                                    hl=en&q=Enzyte+Bob&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
                                    >
                                    >
                                    http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte-
                                    ---jail.ht\
                                    > ml
                                    >
                                    > To see another likeness of HK just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > etznab wrote:
                                    >
                                    > You guys are too funny. I mean that in a
                                    > good way. I saw the photo : )
                                    >
                                    > Etznab
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Jonathan and All,
                                    >
                                    > Jonathan, you referred to HK's large "Smiley Bob" photo
                                    >
                                    > below. Was that the same infamous "Enzyte Bob?" I just
                                    >
                                    > saw an En"Z"yte commercial and "Smiley Bob" reminded
                                    >
                                    > me of, and resembled, Klemp! I guess that "Smiley Bob"
                                    >
                                    > and his mother were in cahoots to scam people. Hey! Isn't
                                    >
                                    > that sort of the same thing that Paul and Gail, Darwin and
                                    >
                                    > Gail, and Harold and Joan did/do by scamming ECKists. It
                                    >
                                    > seems that there's a synchronicity here. And, I'll bet that's
                                    >
                                    > why they're "really" smiling!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > If this site doesn't come up just GOOGLE: Enzyte Bob
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    http://pzrservices.typepad.com/advertisingisgoodforyou/2008/02/enzyte-
                                    ---jail.ht\
                                    > ml
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Jonathan wrote:
                                    >
                                    > G. Harold Klemp's large ''Smiley Bob'' photo
                                    >
                                    > I'd like to point out one more interesting thing that I have noticed
                                    >
                                    > over my many years as a member of Eckankar. In my early days in
                                    >
                                    > Eckankar, in the main room in the Eck center, at the front of the
                                    >
                                    > room, there was a small table or stand. It had some fake or real
                                    >
                                    > flowers on it, plus a fairly small photo of the Eck master, say an 8
                                    >
                                    > by 10 inch color photo. Now (2008) and for about the past 7 years
                                    >
                                    > at least, there is a huge color photo high up on the wall in the
                                    main
                                    >
                                    > room in the Eck center. I would say the photo is about 14 by 17.5
                                    >
                                    > inches in size.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > For at least five years now, the photo of Klemp has been the "smiley
                                    >
                                    > Bob" photo of Klemp. He has a broad smile that is ridiculously
                                    >
                                    > overdone. And the smile lines on both side of his mouth were
                                    >
                                    > obviously digitally retouched to make his smile even more
                                    pronounced.
                                    >
                                    > His smile really looks absolutely silly. As one Eckist quipped "It
                                    >
                                    > doesn't even look like him." Also, his hair has been retouched from
                                    >
                                    > gray to black.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Obviously this "Smiley Bob" photo was dreamed up by the "Madison-
                                    >
                                    > Avenue Team" at Eckankar Headquarters for one reason: to bring more
                                    >
                                    > chelas into Eckankar. The previous photo of Harold shows him with a
                                    >
                                    > very serious look on his face. But who wants to join a serious
                                    >
                                    > spiritual organization? The Madison-Avenue Team obviously
                                    >
                                    > said "Nobody wants to join a dour religion. Make everything happy-
                                    >
                                    > happy." Plus, they no-doubt said "Who wants to join a religion with
                                    >
                                    > an old guy in charge? Touch up his hair and make it darker." If you
                                    >
                                    > look at the photo you can see what a lousy job the artists did. His
                                    >
                                    > hair looks touched up. They did a little better job on the smile
                                    >
                                    > lines, but if you look at the photo closely, you can see the digital
                                    >
                                    > retouching.
                                    >
                                  • jonathanjohns96
                                    All, I m resurrecting a thread that I started about a month ago on February 5, 2009. It was my first post explaining what I call The Madison Avenue Approach
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Mar 3, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      All,

                                      I'm resurrecting a thread that I started about a month ago on February 5, 2009. It was my first post explaining what I call "The Madison Avenue Approach to Eckankar." By this I mean the use of slick marketing to promote Eckankar. In that original post I detailed eight subcategories which I labeled A through H. About two weeks ago I thought up one more example of marketing which would be subcategory I.

                                      I. Remember the time Harold Klemp told a story about the little girl at the playground who taught her friend the HU? This was a long time ago, perhaps more than ten years ago. At any rate, the little girl, I believe she was six years old, taught her little friend the HU. And I believe Klemp indicated that there was some sort of upliftment or beneficial effect on the other child.

                                      Klemp's use of this story kept bothering me and about two weeks ago I finally figured out what was going on. In my opinion, the HU is actually a very powerful spiritual technique. It is not child's play. I I would go so far as to say that it messes a lot of people up by throwing them off balance especially if they overdo it. It is very powerful at opening the upper chakras and this can cause problems for some people. But perhaps even more importantly, I think a lot of Westerners have an adversion to it because it seems like something from an Eastern religion.

                                      What's Eckankar to do? Why tell a story about a six year old girl teaching the HU to her little friend. What is actually happeneing with this story is this. Children respresent innocence. And so if the HU is so innocent that a little girl can teach it to one of her friends, how can anyone dare view the HU as potentially dangerous or as something to be at all suspicious about? So Klemp's use of this story is merely a clever marketing ploy. And it uses innocent children to accomplish this goal!

                                      Let me give you another example. Let's say a big drug company is selling a dangerous drug. How could they fool their target audience by portraying this drug as harmless? Why make a television commercial, talk about the drug and its supposed benefits, but have the video showing a little girl dancing along in a field picking flowers or flying a kite. Sure, the video has nothing to with the drug, but the true purpose of the video is quite clear. This is actually "Advertising 101." It's something that even someone with the most basic knowledge of advertising experience could think up.

                                      Those of you who have followed my posts know that after this original "Madison Avenue" post I related a story in Klemp's new (2008) book "HU, The Most Beautiful Prayer" about a girl named Heidi. She used the HU to help heal a little boy. So this is another example of this. If little children are doing it, what can be wrong with it? What can be dangerous about it?

                                      It's all just another shameless example of how Eckankar uses marketing to fool people. And trust me, a lot of people ARE fooled because the average person does not possess the experience in life to see through these things. And how can a corporation like Eckankar do anything more shameful than this? To use innocent children to promote their religion?

                                      Jonathan
                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hello Jonathan and All, Klemp changes the rules as he sees fit. At one time these charged words like HU and ECK were kept from the general public because
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Feb 22, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello Jonathan and All,
                                        Klemp changes the rules as he sees fit.
                                        At one time these "charged words" like
                                        HU and ECK were kept from the general
                                        public because they could harm people
                                        by creating an imbalance that would
                                        have negative effects upon them.

                                        Thus, only "initiated" members of
                                        Eckankar were instructed on how to
                                        use these "charged words," and were
                                        "protected" from harm by the master.
                                        However, now that I think of it a
                                        "Charge" is either negative or positive
                                        in order to have an effect. Therefore,
                                        using a "charged word" seems like it
                                        could be used for either Black or White
                                        Magic. This is why they were kept
                                        hidden from the general public.

                                        It was kind of like "sharing" one's
                                        inner spiritual experiences with the
                                        master. Eckists were told Not to Share
                                        these because some Eckists didn't
                                        have inner experiences and this sharing
                                        could make them jealous or feel ashamed
                                        that they weren't making progress.

                                        And, some people would pick apart
                                        the experience or reinterpret it making
                                        the one who had it feel more confused
                                        or that their interpretation of it was
                                        inaccurate or that the dream of the
                                        Astral Plane. It was like "casting
                                        your pearls before swine." Yet, Klemp
                                        changed this policy as well! And, he
                                        did this as a promotion method.

                                        I wonder how many people (non-Eckists)
                                        are instructed Not to "direct" the HU,
                                        and what that means. Now, Klemp is
                                        saying that to HU is to pray. I'm not
                                        so sure that Eckankar will be received
                                        as well, in libraries especially, to give
                                        intros. First, Klemp redefines Eckankar
                                        as a Religion of God and now the HU
                                        becomes a Prayer! True, there's a lot
                                        of other religious crap like Hierarchies
                                        and Worship Services etc., but it really
                                        seems to me that Klemp is digressing
                                        back to his Lutheran roots, and he's
                                        taking others with him!

                                        One more thing. I'm thinking that
                                        when ECKists are being "neutral" and
                                        are doing that Sunday Morning Seminar
                                        HU Chant/Song that Klemp is backstage
                                        "directing" it for his own purposes!

                                        Prometheus

                                        jonathan wrote:
                                        All,

                                        I'm resurrecting a thread that I started about a month ago on February 5, 2009.
                                        It was my first post explaining what I call "The Madison Avenue Approach to
                                        Eckankar." By this I mean the use of slick marketing to promote Eckankar. In
                                        that original post I detailed eight subcategories which I labeled A through H.
                                        About two weeks ago I thought up one more example of marketing which would be
                                        subcategory I.

                                        I. Remember the time Harold Klemp told a story about the little girl at the
                                        playground who taught her friend the HU? This was a long time ago, perhaps more
                                        than ten years ago. At any rate, the little girl, I believe she was six years
                                        old, taught her little friend the HU. And I believe Klemp indicated that there
                                        was some sort of upliftment or beneficial effect on the other child.

                                        Klemp's use of this story kept bothering me and about two weeks ago I finally
                                        figured out what was going on. In my opinion, the HU is actually a very powerful
                                        spiritual technique. It is not child's play. I I would go so far as to say that
                                        it messes a lot of people up by throwing them off balance especially if they
                                        overdo it. It is very powerful at opening the upper chakras and this can cause
                                        problems for some people. But perhaps even more importantly, I think a lot of
                                        Westerners have an adversion to it because it seems like something from an
                                        Eastern religion.

                                        What's Eckankar to do? Why tell a story about a six year old girl teaching the
                                        HU to her little friend. What is actually happeneing with this story is this.
                                        Children respresent innocence. And so if the HU is so innocent that a little
                                        girl can teach it to one of her friends, how can anyone dare view the HU as
                                        potentially dangerous or as something to be at all suspicious about? So Klemp's
                                        use of this story is merely a clever marketing ploy. And it uses innocent
                                        children to accomplish this goal!

                                        Let me give you another example. Let's say a big drug company is selling a
                                        dangerous drug. How could they fool their target audience by portraying this
                                        drug as harmless? Why make a television commercial, talk about the drug and its
                                        supposed benefits, but have the video showing a little girl dancing along in a
                                        field picking flowers or flying a kite. Sure, the video has nothing to with the
                                        drug, but the true purpose of the video is quite clear. This is actually
                                        "Advertising 101." It's something that even someone with the most basic
                                        knowledge of advertising experience could think up.

                                        Those of you who have followed my posts know that after this original "Madison
                                        Avenue" post I related a story in Klemp's new (2008) book "HU, The Most
                                        Beautiful Prayer" about a girl named Heidi. She used the HU to help heal a
                                        little boy. So this is another example of this. If little children are doing it,
                                        what can be wrong with it? What can be dangerous about it?

                                        It's all just another shameless example of how Eckankar uses marketing to fool
                                        people. And trust me, a lot of people ARE fooled because the average person does
                                        not possess the experience in life to see through these things. And how can a
                                        corporation like Eckankar do anything more shameful than this? To use innocent
                                        children to promote their religion?

                                        Jonathan
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