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Promotion of Eckankar Part 1 of 3 - Dummying-Down of Eckankar

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  • jonathanjohns96
    Through the years Eckankar has used different promotional techniques. I got used to Eckankar in the early years when their standard procedure was to give
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
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      Through the years Eckankar has used different promotional techniques.
      I got used to Eckankar in the early years when their standard
      procedure was to give Introductory Lectures. But things have changed
      a lot since then, and it wasn't for the better. I started noticing
      these unfortunate changes long before I even considered leaving
      Eckankar.

      I have broken down these changes in the promotion of Eckankar into
      three categories:

      1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
      2. Madison-Avenue Approach to Eckankar
      3. Christianization of Eckankar

      I know that a few people on the Internet have mentioned the first two
      briefly here and there. I can't say I have heard anyone mention the
      Christianization of Eckankar; that seems to be something new that I
      have noticed.

      1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar

      A. Harold Klemp's Dummied-Down Books
      The first thing I would like to discuss under this category is
      something that I noticed a long long time ago, perhaps in the mid to
      late 1980s. I can specifically remember going to the local Eckankar
      Center. Everyone there was abuzz because Harold had a new book that
      had come out. I picked it up, took a quick look and said to
      myself "This is the same kind of namby pamby, dull stories that were
      in his previous books." i really didn't think much more about it at
      that time, but sometime in my last year in Eckankar (Jan-Dec, 2008) I
      realized that this dummying doen of Eckankar's books was probably
      intentional. In other words, make the books of Eckankar so watered
      down that they couldn't possibly offend anyone.

      I did read about one person on the Internet who made the same type of
      comments about Harold's books, but I had felt this way back in the
      1980s.

      B. Removal of ''soul travel'' from the teachings of Eckankar
      There are two aspects to this. The first one is that some time in the
      past ten years Eckankar basically removed the entire concept of soul
      travel from anything that new people would ever be exposed to. Again,
      I feel that this was done so as not to "weird out" newcomers, thus
      preventing potential new members of Eckankar.

      The second aspect is de-emphasizing of soul travel in the teachings
      of Eckankar, even for long time members. I don't know exactly when
      this happened.

      Why did Eckankar de-emphasize soul travel? Somebody at Eckankar
      headquarters must have researched this and they discovered that
      almost no Eckists even do soul travel. And the ones that were doing
      it were having experiences that were at odds with the teachings of
      Eckankar. These Eckists having strange inner experiences had no one
      in Eckankar to talk to so many of them got "fet up" with Eckankar and
      left. Graham Forsythe's bad experience in this regard speaks for
      itself. He sought help from two higher initiates, then Ford Johnson,
      and eventually Harold Klemp himself. Klemp dissed him badly, proving
      that if your experiences are outside the realm of what Paul Twitchell
      experiences, they are at least highly suspect if not
      downright "wrong."

      Another thing that happenned is that somebody, presumably Klemp,
      dummied down the definition of soul travel. Soul travel is an OBE
      (out of body experience). but eventually, many experiences which were
      much less that that were all of a sudden being lableld as "soul
      travel." For example, "If you just had an amazing insight, then you
      soul traveled." Etc.

      C. Seminar in 2008 with Peter Skelesky as the speaker
      There was a seminar in the Summer or Fall of 2008 where Peter
      Skelesky was the keynote speaker. He said some seemingly wacky things
      which even shook up the higher HIs who heard it. He stated that
      Eckankar will be offering a new type of membership which has no
      requirements for the membership. Individuals who hold this
      membership in Eckankar won't read any discourses. There will be no
      requirements attached to their membership, Therefore, when this is
      instituted, there will be two types of memberships in Eckankar.

      This new membership really says a lot about the people running
      Eckankar. It really shows how low they will go to attract new members
      to Eckankar: "Remove all the requirements." I have two
      questions: "Who in their right mind would want to join Eckankar under
      these conditions? What is the benefit for them?" I see the benefit
      for Eckankar: more money, but I don't see the benefit for the new
      member.

      Also, if Eckankar decides to do this it is going to backfire badly
      because the long-term Eckists are not going to be happy at all. They
      are working hard to advance their own spirituality while they are
      side-by-side other members in Eckankar who don't have to do anything?

      I will post Parts 2 and 3 of "Promotion of Eckankar" later.

      Anyone can feel free to comment. I believe the contents of the Peter
      Skelesky talk are well known on the Internet.

      Jonathan
    • etznab@aol.com
      You wrote: Eckankar will be offering a new type of membership which has no requirements for the membership. Indiv- iduals who hold this membership in Eckankar
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        You wrote:

        "Eckankar will be offering a new type of membership
        which has no requirements for the membership. Indiv-
        iduals who hold this membership in Eckankar won't
        read any discourses. There will be no requirements
        attached to their membership, Therefore, when this
        is instituted, there will be two types of memberships
        in Eckankar."

        Umm... this type of membership ... I wonder if some
        day it will become the ONLY form of membership! And
        for everybody? It would remove Eckankar from a whole
        lot of liability! (IMO)

        It was interesting what you shared. I did not know of
        this other form of membership until just now. However,
        I suspect it has to do with more than just gaining new
        members.

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 5:59 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Promotion of Eckankar Part 1 of
        3 - Dummying-Down of Eckankar



        Through the years Eckankar has used different promotional techniques.

        I got used to Eckankar in the early years when their standard

        procedure was to give Introductory Lectures. But things have changed

        a lot since then, and it wasn't for the better. I started noticing

        these unfortunate changes long before I even considered leaving

        Eckankar.



        I have broken down these changes in the promotion of Eckankar into

        three categories:

        =0
        A

        1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar

        2. Madison-Avenue Approach to Eckankar

        3. Christianization of Eckankar



        I know that a few people on the Internet have mentioned the first two

        briefly here and there. I can't say I have heard anyone mention the

        Christianization of Eckankar; that seems to be something new that I

        have noticed.



        1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar



        A. Harold Klemp's Dummied-Down Books

        The first thing I would like to discuss under this category is

        something that I noticed a long long time ago, perhaps in the mid to

        late 1980s. I can specifically remember going to the local Eckankar

        Center. Everyone there was abuzz because Harold had a new book that

        had come out. I picked it up, took a quick look and said to

        myself "This is the same kind of namby pamby, dull stories that were

        in his previous books." i really didn't think much more about it at

        that time, but sometime in my last year in Eckankar (Jan-Dec, 2008) I

        realized that this dummying doen of Eckankar's books was probably

        intentional. In other words, make the books of Eckankar so watered

        down that they couldn't possibly offend anyone.



        I did read about one person on the Internet who made the same type of

        comments about Harold's books, but I had felt this way back in the

        1980s.



        B. Removal of ''soul travel'' from the teachings of Eckankar0D

        There are two aspects to this. The first one is that some time in the

        past ten years Eckankar basically removed the entire concept of soul

        travel from anything that new people would ever be exposed to. Again,

        I feel that this was done so as not to "weird out" newcomers, thus

        preventing potential new members of Eckankar.



        The second aspect is de-emphasizing of soul travel in the teachings

        of Eckankar, even for long time members. I don't know exactly when

        this happened.



        Why did Eckankar de-emphasize soul travel? Somebody at Eckankar

        headquarters must have researched this and they discovered that

        almost no Eckists even do soul travel. And the ones that were doing

        it were having experiences that were at odds with the teachings of

        Eckankar. These Eckists having strange inner experiences had no one

        in Eckankar to talk to so many of them got "fet up" with Eckankar and

        left. Graham Forsythe's bad experience in this regard speaks for

        itself. He sought help from two higher initiates, then Ford Johnson,

        and eventually Harold Klemp himself. Klemp dissed him badly, proving

        that if your experiences are outside the realm of what Paul Twitchell

        experiences, they are at least highly suspect if not

        downright "wrong."



        Another thing that happenned is that somebody, presumably Klemp,

        dummied down the definition of soul travel. Soul travel is an OBE

        (
        out of body experience). but eventually, many experiences which were

        much less that that were all of a sudden being lableld as "soul

        travel." For example, "If you just had an amazing insight, then you

        soul traveled." Etc.



        C. Seminar in 2008 with Peter Skelesky as the speaker

        There was a seminar in the Summer or Fall of 2008 where Peter

        Skelesky was the keynote speaker. He said some seemingly wacky things

        which even shook up the higher HIs who heard it. He stated that

        Eckankar will be offering a new type of membership which has no

        requirements for the membership. Individuals who hold this

        membership in Eckankar won't read any discourses. There will be no

        requirements attached to their membership, Therefore, when this is

        instituted, there will be two types of memberships in Eckankar.



        This new membership really says a lot about the people running

        Eckankar. It really shows how low they will go to attract new members

        to Eckankar: "Remove all the requirements." I have two

        questions: "Who in their right mind would want to join Eckankar under

        these conditions? What is the benefit for them?" I see the benefit

        for Eckankar: more money, but I don't see the benefit for the new

        member.



        Also, if Eckankar decides to do this it is going to backfire badly

        because the long-term Eckists are not going to be happy at all. They

        are working ha
        rd to advance their own spirituality while they are

        side-by-side other members in Eckankar who don't have to do anything?



        I will post Parts 2 and 3 of "Promotion of Eckankar" later.



        Anyone can feel free to comment. I believe the contents of the Peter

        Skelesky talk are well known on the Internet.



        Jonathan
      • jonathanjohns96
        Etznab, I heard about this at the local Eck center soon after Skelesky gave the talk. I heard nothing about it since. So what I am saying is that just because
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
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          Etznab,
          I heard about this at the local Eck center soon after Skelesky gave
          the talk. I heard nothing about it since. So what I am saying is that
          just because Peter Skelesky said it at a seminar I don't necessarily
          believe it will happen soon or even at all. We'll have to wait and
          see. I know that it went over extremely poorly with long-time members
          of Eckankar. But as I believe Prometheus has pointed out, the old
          timers are a dying breed in Eckankar. I think perhaps Skelesky
          was "testing the waters" at this seminar just to see how people would
          react.
          Jonathan

          Etznab quoted Jonathanjohns96, then wrote a reply:
          >
          > [jonathanjohns96 -->] "Eckankar will be offering a
          > new type of membership
          > which has no requirements for the membership. Indiv-
          > iduals who hold this membership in Eckankar won't
          > read any discourses. There will be no requirements
          > attached to their membership, Therefore, when this
          > is instituted, there will be two types of memberships
          > in Eckankar." [<-- jonathanjohns96]
          >
          > [Etznab -->] Umm... this type of membership ... I wonder if some
          > day it will become the ONLY form of membership! And
          > for everybody? It would remove Eckankar from a whole
          > lot of liability! (IMO)
          >
          > It was interesting what you shared. I did not know of
          > this other form of membership until just now. However,
          > I suspect it has to do with more than just gaining new
          > members.
          >
          > Etznab
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 5:59 pm
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Promotion of Eckankar Part
          1 of
          > 3 - Dummying-Down of Eckankar
          >
          >
          >
          > Through the years Eckankar has used different promotional
          techniques.
          >
          > I got used to Eckankar in the early years when their standard
          >
          > procedure was to give Introductory Lectures. But things have changed
          >
          > a lot since then, and it wasn't for the better. I started noticing
          >
          > these unfortunate changes long before I even considered leaving
          >
          > Eckankar.
          >
          >
          >
          > I have broken down these changes in the promotion of Eckankar into
          >
          > three categories:
          >
          > =0
          > A
          >
          > 1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
          >
          > 2. Madison-Avenue Approach to Eckankar
          >
          > 3. Christianization of Eckankar
          >
          >
          >
          > I know that a few people on the Internet have mentioned the first
          two
          >
          > briefly here and there. I can't say I have heard anyone mention the
          >
          > Christianization of Eckankar; that seems to be something new that I
          >
          > have noticed.
          >
          >
          >
          > 1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
          >
          >
          >
          > A. Harold Klemp's Dummied-Down Books
          >
          > The first thing I would like to discuss under this category is
          >
          > something that I noticed a long long time ago, perhaps in the mid to
          >
          > late 1980s. I can specifically remember going to the local Eckankar
          >
          > Center. Everyone there was abuzz because Harold had a new book that
          >
          > had come out. I picked it up, took a quick look and said to
          >
          > myself "This is the same kind of namby pamby, dull stories that were
          >
          > in his previous books." i really didn't think much more about it at
          >
          > that time, but sometime in my last year in Eckankar (Jan-Dec, 2008)
          I
          >
          > realized that this dummying doen of Eckankar's books was probably
          >
          > intentional. In other words, make the books of Eckankar so watered
          >
          > down that they couldn't possibly offend anyone.
          >
          >
          >
          > I did read about one person on the Internet who made the same type
          of
          >
          > comments about Harold's books, but I had felt this way back in the
          >
          > 1980s.
          >
          >
          >
          > B. Removal of ''soul travel'' from the teachings of Eckankar0D
          >
          > There are two aspects to this. The first one is that some time in
          the
          >
          > past ten years Eckankar basically removed the entire concept of soul
          >
          > travel from anything that new people would ever be exposed to.
          Again,
          >
          > I feel that this was done so as not to "weird out" newcomers, thus
          >
          > preventing potential new members of Eckankar.
          >
          >
          >
          > The second aspect is de-emphasizing of soul travel in the teachings
          >
          > of Eckankar, even for long time members. I don't know exactly when
          >
          > this happened.
          >
          >
          >
          > Why did Eckankar de-emphasize soul travel? Somebody at Eckankar
          >
          > headquarters must have researched this and they discovered that
          >
          > almost no Eckists even do soul travel. And the ones that were doing
          >
          > it were having experiences that were at odds with the teachings of
          >
          > Eckankar. These Eckists having strange inner experiences had no one
          >
          > in Eckankar to talk to so many of them got "fet up" with Eckankar
          and
          >
          > left. Graham Forsythe's bad experience in this regard speaks for
          >
          > itself. He sought help from two higher initiates, then Ford Johnson,
          >
          > and eventually Harold Klemp himself. Klemp dissed him badly, proving
          >
          > that if your experiences are outside the realm of what Paul
          Twitchell
          >
          > experiences, they are at least highly suspect if not
          >
          > downright "wrong."
          >
          >
          >
          > Another thing that happenned is that somebody, presumably Klemp,
          >
          > dummied down the definition of soul travel. Soul travel is an OBE
          >
          > (
          > out of body experience). but eventually, many experiences which were
          >
          > much less that that were all of a sudden being lableld as "soul
          >
          > travel." For example, "If you just had an amazing insight, then you
          >
          > soul traveled." Etc.
          >
          >
          >
          > C. Seminar in 2008 with Peter Skelesky as the speaker
          >
          > There was a seminar in the Summer or Fall of 2008 where Peter
          >
          > Skelesky was the keynote speaker. He said some seemingly wacky
          things
          >
          > which even shook up the higher HIs who heard it. He stated that
          >
          > Eckankar will be offering a new type of membership which has no
          >
          > requirements for the membership. Individuals who hold this
          >
          > membership in Eckankar won't read any discourses. There will be no
          >
          > requirements attached to their membership, Therefore, when this is
          >
          > instituted, there will be two types of memberships in Eckankar.
          >
          >
          >
          > This new membership really says a lot about the people running
          >
          > Eckankar. It really shows how low they will go to attract new
          members
          >
          > to Eckankar: "Remove all the requirements." I have two
          >
          > questions: "Who in their right mind would want to join Eckankar
          under
          >
          > these conditions? What is the benefit for them?" I see the benefit
          >
          > for Eckankar: more money, but I don't see the benefit for the new
          >
          > member.
          >
          >
          >
          > Also, if Eckankar decides to do this it is going to backfire badly
          >
          > because the long-term Eckists are not going to be happy at all. They
          >
          > are working ha
          > rd to advance their own spirituality while they are
          >
          > side-by-side other members in Eckankar who don't have to do
          anything?
          >
          >
          >
          > I will post Parts 2 and 3 of "Promotion of Eckankar" later.
          >
          >
          >
          > Anyone can feel free to comment. I believe the contents of the Peter
          >
          > Skelesky talk are well known on the Internet.
          >
          >
          >
          > Jonathan
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan and All, It seems like ECKankar stopped using the term Soul Travel with the public because it didn t make sense. Vahanas always had to explain
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 4, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Jonathan and All,
            It seems like ECKankar stopped using the term
            "Soul Travel" with the public because it didn't
            make sense. Vahanas always had to explain that
            there was actually No "traveling" involved, although,
            at times it felt like there was the "sensation" of travel.

            Actually, the old "Bi-location" term, that Twitch first
            used, is more descriptive of splitting the consciousness,
            or of being in two places (or planes of consciousness)
            simultaneously than with the confusion surrounding
            the term Soul "Travel."

            Yes, it is clear that Klemp has taken a business approach
            with ECKankar. Recently, however, the EK training methods
            have become rather dated and questionable. For instance,
            Klemp has recommended using the 1930 copyright of
            Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People"
            as a training guide for EK vahanas. BTW- Why can't the
            All-Knowing Mahanta (Klemp) come up with something
            as clever as Dale Carnegie did, or poetry to equal Rumi's?
            Why doesn't Klemp present his own new and current views
            instead of recycling those of others? It's because HK's not
            all that talented (creative) or intelligent (thoughtful)!

            BTW- Isn't it interesting that Twitchell used Julian P. Johnson's
            (1938) "The Path of the Masters" to create ECKankar in 1965,
            and now, in the 21st Century, Klemp uses Dale Carnegie's
            1930 book for his EK Vahana Training!

            ********************************************************
            Here's some info I found:

            Quotes by Famous People - Dale Carnegie (1888-1955)
            was a pioneer in public speaking and personality development.
            He is perhaps the most well-known author in the field of
            communication and public speaking. He was born in Maryville,
            Missouri, USA. He grew up on a small farm, and endured the
            struggles and proverty of farming life.

            He had a strong belief that the quickest way to develop
            a persons self esteem was by public speaking. His book,
            "How to Win Friends and Influence People", was published
            in 1930 and has sold well over 10 million copies. His books
            continue to help people worldwide. He truly believe in the
            saying, "Believe that you will succeed, and you will".

            If you enjoy the quotes below, then you may enjoy the
            writings of Dale Carnegie

            Below are words of wisdom in the form of inspirational
            quotes and motivational quotes by Dale Carnegie:

            "You'll never achieve real success unless you like what
            you're doing." Dale Carnegie

            "Flaming enthusiasm backed by horse sense and persistence,
            is the quality that most frequently makes for success."
            Dale Carnegie

            "There are four ways, and only four ways, in which we
            have contact with the world. We are evaluated and classified
            by these four contacts:

            what we do,
            how we look,
            what we say, and
            how we say it." Dale Carnegie

            "The successful man will profit from his mistakes and try
            again in a different way."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Don't be afraid to give your best to what seemingly are small
            jobs. Every time you conquer one it makes you that much
            stronger. If you do the little jobs well, the big ones will tend
            to take care of themselves."
            Dale Carnegie

            "When fate hands us a lemon, let's try to make lemonade."
            Dale Carnegie

            "If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the beehive.
            If only the people who worry about their liabilities would
            think about the riches they do possess, they would stop
            worrying." Dale Carnegie

            "You can make more friends in two months by becoming
            interested in other people than you can in two years by trying
            to get other people interested in you."
            Dale Carnegie

            "If you can't sleep, then get up and do something instead
            of lying there worrying. It's the worry that gets you, not
            the lack of sleep."
            Dale Carnegie

            "The person who goes farthest is generally the one who
            is willing to do and dare. The sure-thing boat never gets
            far from shore."
            Dale Carnegie

            "First ask yourself:
            What is the worst that can happen?
            Then prepare to accept it.
            Then proceed to improve on the worst."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Be more concerned with your character than with your
            reputation. Your character is what you really are while
            your reputation is merely what others think you are."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Would you sell both your eyes for a million dollars…or
            your two legs…or your hands…or your hearing? Add up
            what you do have, and you'll find you won't sell them for
            all the gold in the world. The best things in life are yours,
            if you can appreciate them."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Remember, today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday."
            Dale Carnegie

            "If you don't like their rules, whose would you use?"
            Dale Carnegie

            "You have it easily in your power to increase the sum total
            of this world's happiness now. How? By giving a few words
            of sincere appreciation to someone who is lonely or discouraged.
            Perhaps you will forget tomorrow the kind words you say today,
            but the recipient may cherish them over a lifetime."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Inaction breeds doubt and fear. Action breeds confidence
            and courage. If you want to conquer fear, do not sit home
            and think about it. Go out and get busy."
            Dale Carnegie

            "If you believe in what you are doing, then let nothing hold
            you up in your work. Much of the best work of the world has
            been done against seeming impossibilities. The thing is to
            get the work done."
            Dale Carnegie

            "People rarely succeed unless they have fun in what they are doing."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Did you ever see an unhappy horse? Did you ever see bird
            that had the blues? One reason why birds and horses are not
            unhappy is because they are not trying to impress other birds
            and horses."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished
            by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no
            help at all."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Do the thing you fear to do and keep on doing it... that is the
            quickest and surest way ever yet discovered to conquer fear."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Tell me what gives a man or woman their greatest pleasure
            and I'll tell you their philosophy of life."
            Dale Carnegie

            "I deal with the obvious. I present, reiterate and glorify the
            obvious -- because the obvious is what people need to be told."
            Dale Carnegie

            "If you want to win friends, make it a point to remember them.
            If you remember my name, you pay me a subtle compliment;
            you indicate that I have made an impression on you. Remember
            my name and you add to my feeling of importance."
            Dale Carnegie

            "All the king's horses and all the king's men can't put the past
            together again. So let's remember: Don't try to saw sawdust."
            Dale Carnegie

            "If you believe in what you are doing, then let nothing hold you
            up in your work. Much of the best work of the world has been
            done against seeming impossibilities. The thing is to get the work
            done."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Are you bored with life? Then throw yourself into some work
            you believe in with all your heart, live for it, die for it, and you
            will find happines that you had thought could never be yours."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Pay less attention to what men say. Just watch what they do."
            Dale Carnegie

            "If we think happy thoughts, we will be happy. If we think miserable
            thoughts, we will be miserable."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character
            and selfcontrol to be understanding and forgiving."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Remember happiness doesn't depend upon who you are or what
            you have; it depends solely on what you think."
            Dale Carnegie

            "One of the most tragic things I know about human nature is that
            all of us tend to put off living. We are all dreaming of some magical
            rose garden over the horizon-instead of enjoying the roses blooming
            outside our windows today."
            Dale Carnegie

            "The way to defeat fear: decide on a course of conduct and follow it.
            Keep so busy and work so hard that you forget about being afraid."
            Dale Carnegie

            "Many people think that if they were only in some other place,
            or had some other job, they would be happy. Well, that is doubtful.
            So get as much happiness out of what you are doing as you can and
            don't put off being happy until some future date."
            Dale Carnegie
            *********************************************************************

            IMO- Peter Skelsky's comments of 15 years of Membership Fees
            corresponds to the same 15 years worth of EK Discourses that
            have been available for years and years! These ECKists with
            initiations 1-4 would have to pay for the Discourses. I believe
            that initiates 5-9 will Not have to pay for a Memberships, BUT
            they would be expected to pay or "donate" their time and money
            (service & coin) in other ways. Those courses and trainings for
            Cleric positions, Initiator positions, ESA positions, and those
            Internet Broadcasts etc. will be how this money will be diverted.
            Besides, there are Two different kinds of Memberships now!
            There are Lower and Higher Initiates just as there are Two different
            Initiate Meetings at Seminars.

            Skelsky and Klemp are merely responding to the criticism that
            has been posted about paying for Lower Plane "spirituality" after
            the outer EK Discourses have been completed. It's kind of like
            "taxation without representation" since the LEM (Outer master)
            is more for the Lower (Plane) Initiates while the Mahanta (Inner
            Master) is more for the Higher (Plane) Initiates and shouldn't be
            concerned with money! Right! Isn't this what the EK Dogma, more
            precisely, states? Thus, future EK membership requirements must
            also change!

            Prometheus
            #################################################

            jonathan wrote:
            >
            > Through the years Eckankar has used different promotional
            techniques. I got used to Eckankar in the early years when their
            standard procedure was to give Introductory Lectures. But things
            have changed a lot since then, and it wasn't for the better. I started
            noticing these unfortunate changes long before I even considered
            leaving Eckankar.
            >
            I have broken down these changes in the promotion of Eckankar
            into three categories:
            >
            1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
            2. Madison-Avenue Approach to Eckankar
            3. Christianization of Eckankar
            >
            I know that a few people on the Internet have mentioned the
            first two briefly here and there. I can't say I have heard anyone
            mention the Christianization of Eckankar; that seems to be something
            new that I have noticed.
            >
            1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
            >
            A. Harold Klemp's Dummied-Down Books
            The first thing I would like to discuss under this category is
            something that I noticed a long long time ago, perhaps in the
            mid to late 1980s. I can specifically remember going to the local
            Eckankar Center. Everyone there was abuzz because Harold had
            a new book that had come out. I picked it up, took a quick look
            and said to myself "This is the same kind of namby pamby, dull
            stories that were in his previous books." i really didn't think much
            more about it at that time, but sometime in my last year in Eckankar
            (Jan-Dec, 2008) I realized that this dummying doen of Eckankar's
            books was probably intentional. In other words, make the books
            of Eckankar so watered down that they couldn't possibly offend
            anyone.
            >
            I did read about one person on the Internet who made the same type of
            comments about Harold's books, but I had felt this way back in the
            1980s.
            >
            B. Removal of ''soul travel'' from the teachings of Eckankar
            There are two aspects to this. The first one is that some time in the
            past ten years Eckankar basically removed the entire concept of soul
            travel from anything that new people would ever be exposed to. Again,
            I feel that this was done so as not to "weird out" newcomers, thus
            preventing potential new members of Eckankar.
            >
            The second aspect is de-emphasizing of soul travel in the teachings
            of Eckankar, even for long time members. I don't know exactly when
            this happened.
            >
            Why did Eckankar de-emphasize soul travel? Somebody at Eckankar
            headquarters must have researched this and they discovered that
            almost no Eckists even do soul travel. And the ones that were doing
            it were having experiences that were at odds with the teachings of
            Eckankar. These Eckists having strange inner experiences had no one
            in Eckankar to talk to so many of them got "fet up" with Eckankar and
            left. Graham Forsythe's bad experience in this regard speaks for
            itself. He sought help from two higher initiates, then Ford Johnson,
            and eventually Harold Klemp himself. Klemp dissed him badly, proving
            that if your experiences are outside the realm of what Paul Twitchell
            experiences, they are at least highly suspect if not
            downright "wrong."
            >
            Another thing that happenned is that somebody, presumably Klemp,
            dummied down the definition of soul travel. Soul travel is an OBE
            (out of body experience). but eventually, many experiences which were
            much less that that were all of a sudden being lableld as "soul
            travel." For example, "If you just had an amazing insight, then you
            soul traveled." Etc.
            >
            C. Seminar in 2008 with Peter Skelesky as the speaker
            There was a seminar in the Summer or Fall of 2008 where Peter
            Skelesky was the keynote speaker. He said some seemingly wacky things
            which even shook up the higher HIs who heard it. He stated that
            Eckankar will be offering a new type of membership which has no
            requirements for the membership. Individuals who hold this
            membership in Eckankar won't read any discourses. There will be no
            requirements attached to their membership, Therefore, when this is
            instituted, there will be two types of memberships in Eckankar.
            >
            This new membership really says a lot about the people running
            Eckankar. It really shows how low they will go to attract new members
            to Eckankar: "Remove all the requirements." I have two
            questions: "Who in their right mind would want to join Eckankar under
            these conditions? What is the benefit for them?" I see the benefit
            for Eckankar: more money, but I don't see the benefit for the new
            member.
            >
            Also, if Eckankar decides to do this it is going to backfire badly
            because the long-term Eckists are not going to be happy at all. They
            are working hard to advance their own spirituality while they are
            side-by-side other members in Eckankar who don't have to do anything?
            >
            I will post Parts 2 and 3 of "Promotion of Eckankar" later.
            >
            Anyone can feel free to comment. I believe the contents of the Peter
            Skelesky talk are well known on the Internet.
            >
            Jonathan
            >
          • jonathanjohns96
            Prometheus, I m not certain we are on the same track regarding Peter Skelsky and memberships. I think your comments are valid. But in the talk I am referring
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
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              Prometheus,
              I'm not certain we are on the same track regarding Peter Skelsky and
              memberships. I think your comments are valid. But in the talk I am
              referring to Peter said there would be two different membership
              tracks side by side in Eckankar. Parallel to each other, but
              unrelated. The "no requirements" track would be more similar to say
              someone who is currently a Christian: they go to chuch, but that's
              about it. So the "no requirements" track would be in Eckankar just to
              go to the Worship Services and attend seminars; to a large degree
              just social activities for them. They would not read study the
              Eckankar discourses. They would not receive initiations. That is my
              understanding of what the Eckists who were there told me.
              Jonathan


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Jonathan and All,
              > It seems like ECKankar stopped using the term
              > "Soul Travel" with the public because it didn't
              > make sense. Vahanas always had to explain that
              > there was actually No "traveling" involved, although,
              > at times it felt like there was the "sensation" of travel.
              >
              > Actually, the old "Bi-location" term, that Twitch first
              > used, is more descriptive of splitting the consciousness,
              > or of being in two places (or planes of consciousness)
              > simultaneously than with the confusion surrounding
              > the term Soul "Travel."
              >
              > Yes, it is clear that Klemp has taken a business approach
              > with ECKankar. Recently, however, the EK training methods
              > have become rather dated and questionable. For instance,
              > Klemp has recommended using the 1930 copyright of
              > Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People"
              > as a training guide for EK vahanas. BTW- Why can't the
              > All-Knowing Mahanta (Klemp) come up with something
              > as clever as Dale Carnegie did, or poetry to equal Rumi's?
              > Why doesn't Klemp present his own new and current views
              > instead of recycling those of others? It's because HK's not
              > all that talented (creative) or intelligent (thoughtful)!
              >
              > BTW- Isn't it interesting that Twitchell used Julian P. Johnson's
              > (1938) "The Path of the Masters" to create ECKankar in 1965,
              > and now, in the 21st Century, Klemp uses Dale Carnegie's
              > 1930 book for his EK Vahana Training!
              >
              > ********************************************************
              > Here's some info I found:
              >
              > Quotes by Famous People - Dale Carnegie (1888-1955)
              > was a pioneer in public speaking and personality development.
              > He is perhaps the most well-known author in the field of
              > communication and public speaking. He was born in Maryville,
              > Missouri, USA. He grew up on a small farm, and endured the
              > struggles and proverty of farming life.
              >
              > He had a strong belief that the quickest way to develop
              > a persons self esteem was by public speaking. His book,
              > "How to Win Friends and Influence People", was published
              > in 1930 and has sold well over 10 million copies. His books
              > continue to help people worldwide. He truly believe in the
              > saying, "Believe that you will succeed, and you will".
              >
              > If you enjoy the quotes below, then you may enjoy the
              > writings of Dale Carnegie
              >
              > Below are words of wisdom in the form of inspirational
              > quotes and motivational quotes by Dale Carnegie:
              >
              > "You'll never achieve real success unless you like what
              > you're doing." Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Flaming enthusiasm backed by horse sense and persistence,
              > is the quality that most frequently makes for success."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "There are four ways, and only four ways, in which we
              > have contact with the world. We are evaluated and classified
              > by these four contacts:
              >
              > what we do,
              > how we look,
              > what we say, and
              > how we say it." Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "The successful man will profit from his mistakes and try
              > again in a different way."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Don't be afraid to give your best to what seemingly are small
              > jobs. Every time you conquer one it makes you that much
              > stronger. If you do the little jobs well, the big ones will tend
              > to take care of themselves."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "When fate hands us a lemon, let's try to make lemonade."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the beehive.
              > If only the people who worry about their liabilities would
              > think about the riches they do possess, they would stop
              > worrying." Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "You can make more friends in two months by becoming
              > interested in other people than you can in two years by trying
              > to get other people interested in you."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "If you can't sleep, then get up and do something instead
              > of lying there worrying. It's the worry that gets you, not
              > the lack of sleep."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "The person who goes farthest is generally the one who
              > is willing to do and dare. The sure-thing boat never gets
              > far from shore."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "First ask yourself:
              > What is the worst that can happen?
              > Then prepare to accept it.
              > Then proceed to improve on the worst."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Be more concerned with your character than with your
              > reputation. Your character is what you really are while
              > your reputation is merely what others think you are."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Would you sell both your eyes for a million dollars…or
              > your two legs…or your hands…or your hearing? Add up
              > what you do have, and you'll find you won't sell them for
              > all the gold in the world. The best things in life are yours,
              > if you can appreciate them."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Remember, today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "If you don't like their rules, whose would you use?"
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "You have it easily in your power to increase the sum total
              > of this world's happiness now. How? By giving a few words
              > of sincere appreciation to someone who is lonely or discouraged.
              > Perhaps you will forget tomorrow the kind words you say today,
              > but the recipient may cherish them over a lifetime."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Inaction breeds doubt and fear. Action breeds confidence
              > and courage. If you want to conquer fear, do not sit home
              > and think about it. Go out and get busy."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "If you believe in what you are doing, then let nothing hold
              > you up in your work. Much of the best work of the world has
              > been done against seeming impossibilities. The thing is to
              > get the work done."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "People rarely succeed unless they have fun in what they are
              doing."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Did you ever see an unhappy horse? Did you ever see bird
              > that had the blues? One reason why birds and horses are not
              > unhappy is because they are not trying to impress other birds
              > and horses."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished
              > by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no
              > help at all."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Do the thing you fear to do and keep on doing it... that is the
              > quickest and surest way ever yet discovered to conquer fear."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Tell me what gives a man or woman their greatest pleasure
              > and I'll tell you their philosophy of life."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "I deal with the obvious. I present, reiterate and glorify the
              > obvious -- because the obvious is what people need to be told."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "If you want to win friends, make it a point to remember them.
              > If you remember my name, you pay me a subtle compliment;
              > you indicate that I have made an impression on you. Remember
              > my name and you add to my feeling of importance."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "All the king's horses and all the king's men can't put the past
              > together again. So let's remember: Don't try to saw sawdust."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "If you believe in what you are doing, then let nothing hold you
              > up in your work. Much of the best work of the world has been
              > done against seeming impossibilities. The thing is to get the work
              > done."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Are you bored with life? Then throw yourself into some work
              > you believe in with all your heart, live for it, die for it, and
              you
              > will find happines that you had thought could never be yours."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Pay less attention to what men say. Just watch what they do."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "If we think happy thoughts, we will be happy. If we think
              miserable
              > thoughts, we will be miserable."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes
              character
              > and selfcontrol to be understanding and forgiving."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Remember happiness doesn't depend upon who you are or what
              > you have; it depends solely on what you think."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "One of the most tragic things I know about human nature is that
              > all of us tend to put off living. We are all dreaming of some
              magical
              > rose garden over the horizon-instead of enjoying the roses blooming
              > outside our windows today."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "The way to defeat fear: decide on a course of conduct and follow
              it.
              > Keep so busy and work so hard that you forget about being afraid."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              > "Many people think that if they were only in some other place,
              > or had some other job, they would be happy. Well, that is doubtful.
              > So get as much happiness out of what you are doing as you can and
              > don't put off being happy until some future date."
              > Dale Carnegie
              >
              *********************************************************************
              >
              > IMO- Peter Skelsky's comments of 15 years of Membership Fees
              > corresponds to the same 15 years worth of EK Discourses that
              > have been available for years and years! These ECKists with
              > initiations 1-4 would have to pay for the Discourses. I believe
              > that initiates 5-9 will Not have to pay for a Memberships, BUT
              > they would be expected to pay or "donate" their time and money
              > (service & coin) in other ways. Those courses and trainings for
              > Cleric positions, Initiator positions, ESA positions, and those
              > Internet Broadcasts etc. will be how this money will be diverted.
              > Besides, there are Two different kinds of Memberships now!
              > There are Lower and Higher Initiates just as there are Two
              different
              > Initiate Meetings at Seminars.
              >
              > Skelsky and Klemp are merely responding to the criticism that
              > has been posted about paying for Lower Plane "spirituality" after
              > the outer EK Discourses have been completed. It's kind of like
              > "taxation without representation" since the LEM (Outer master)
              > is more for the Lower (Plane) Initiates while the Mahanta (Inner
              > Master) is more for the Higher (Plane) Initiates and shouldn't be
              > concerned with money! Right! Isn't this what the EK Dogma, more
              > precisely, states? Thus, future EK membership requirements must
              > also change!
              >
              > Prometheus
              > #################################################
              >
              > jonathan wrote:
              > >
              > > Through the years Eckankar has used different promotional
              > techniques. I got used to Eckankar in the early years when their
              > standard procedure was to give Introductory Lectures. But things
              > have changed a lot since then, and it wasn't for the better. I
              started
              > noticing these unfortunate changes long before I even considered
              > leaving Eckankar.
              > >
              > I have broken down these changes in the promotion of Eckankar
              > into three categories:
              > >
              > 1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
              > 2. Madison-Avenue Approach to Eckankar
              > 3. Christianization of Eckankar
              > >
              > I know that a few people on the Internet have mentioned the
              > first two briefly here and there. I can't say I have heard anyone
              > mention the Christianization of Eckankar; that seems to be
              something
              > new that I have noticed.
              > >
              > 1. Dummying-Down of Eckankar
              > >
              > A. Harold Klemp's Dummied-Down Books
              > The first thing I would like to discuss under this category is
              > something that I noticed a long long time ago, perhaps in the
              > mid to late 1980s. I can specifically remember going to the local
              > Eckankar Center. Everyone there was abuzz because Harold had
              > a new book that had come out. I picked it up, took a quick look
              > and said to myself "This is the same kind of namby pamby, dull
              > stories that were in his previous books." i really didn't think
              much
              > more about it at that time, but sometime in my last year in
              Eckankar
              > (Jan-Dec, 2008) I realized that this dummying doen of Eckankar's
              > books was probably intentional. In other words, make the books
              > of Eckankar so watered down that they couldn't possibly offend
              > anyone.
              > >
              > I did read about one person on the Internet who made the same type
              of
              > comments about Harold's books, but I had felt this way back in the
              > 1980s.
              > >
              > B. Removal of ''soul travel'' from the teachings of Eckankar
              > There are two aspects to this. The first one is that some time in
              the
              > past ten years Eckankar basically removed the entire concept of
              soul
              > travel from anything that new people would ever be exposed to.
              Again,
              > I feel that this was done so as not to "weird out" newcomers, thus
              > preventing potential new members of Eckankar.
              > >
              > The second aspect is de-emphasizing of soul travel in the teachings
              > of Eckankar, even for long time members. I don't know exactly when
              > this happened.
              > >
              > Why did Eckankar de-emphasize soul travel? Somebody at Eckankar
              > headquarters must have researched this and they discovered that
              > almost no Eckists even do soul travel. And the ones that were doing
              > it were having experiences that were at odds with the teachings of
              > Eckankar. These Eckists having strange inner experiences had no one
              > in Eckankar to talk to so many of them got "fet up" with Eckankar
              and
              > left. Graham Forsythe's bad experience in this regard speaks for
              > itself. He sought help from two higher initiates, then Ford
              Johnson,
              > and eventually Harold Klemp himself. Klemp dissed him badly,
              proving
              > that if your experiences are outside the realm of what Paul
              Twitchell
              > experiences, they are at least highly suspect if not
              > downright "wrong."
              > >
              > Another thing that happenned is that somebody, presumably Klemp,
              > dummied down the definition of soul travel. Soul travel is an OBE
              > (out of body experience). but eventually, many experiences which
              were
              > much less that that were all of a sudden being lableld as "soul
              > travel." For example, "If you just had an amazing insight, then you
              > soul traveled." Etc.
              > >
              > C. Seminar in 2008 with Peter Skelesky as the speaker
              > There was a seminar in the Summer or Fall of 2008 where Peter
              > Skelesky was the keynote speaker. He said some seemingly wacky
              things
              > which even shook up the higher HIs who heard it. He stated that
              > Eckankar will be offering a new type of membership which has no
              > requirements for the membership. Individuals who hold this
              > membership in Eckankar won't read any discourses. There will be no
              > requirements attached to their membership, Therefore, when this is
              > instituted, there will be two types of memberships in Eckankar.
              > >
              > This new membership really says a lot about the people running
              > Eckankar. It really shows how low they will go to attract new
              members
              > to Eckankar: "Remove all the requirements." I have two
              > questions: "Who in their right mind would want to join Eckankar
              under
              > these conditions? What is the benefit for them?" I see the benefit
              > for Eckankar: more money, but I don't see the benefit for the new
              > member.
              > >
              > Also, if Eckankar decides to do this it is going to backfire badly
              > because the long-term Eckists are not going to be happy at all.
              They
              > are working hard to advance their own spirituality while they are
              > side-by-side other members in Eckankar who don't have to do
              anything?
              > >
              > I will post Parts 2 and 3 of "Promotion of Eckankar" later.
              > >
              > Anyone can feel free to comment. I believe the contents of the
              Peter
              > Skelesky talk are well known on the Internet.
              > >
              > Jonathan
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Jonathan and All, Actually, there have been Two Tracks for EK Initiates for years now. And, this is reflected in the Seminar Workshops and Roundtables.
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
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                Hello Jonathan and All,
                Actually, there have been "Two Tracks" for EK Initiates
                for years now. And, this is reflected in the Seminar Workshops
                and Roundtables.

                There's the "fast track" for initiation and then there's the slower,
                but more "spiritual" track. This is actually a "mind game" Klemp's
                playing. Outside of the EK Seminar (back home) one has to be
                on the "fast track" for titles before one can receive that next
                "spiritual" initiation. Of course, imagination and delusion goes
                long way in believing one is "growing" spiritually. But, when
                initiations are "slowed down" one has to find the right words
                and distractions to justify this old on-going policy.

                This Third "no requirements" track might be another method
                devised to sucker people in (Bait and Switch). After a while
                these newbies and procrastinators start to covet the titles
                and/or initiations and then join as paying members. In the
                meantime they're buying EK books and spending their money
                in other EK ways. Thus, maybe this is another ploy to increase
                the numbers while, also, increasing the pool of those willing
                to buy pieces of the scam (non-joiners). Look at other religions
                and the way that many younger disillusioned people "church"
                hunt! ECKankar, too, will take their money via material purchases
                until they will, also, become disillusioned with another religion.
                With ECKankar, and religion in general, the numbers game becomes
                more and more important each year.

                Quantity versus Quality has always been a problem within
                ECKankar since the "Quality" of Klemp's H.I.s have always been
                a problem. Look at how Higher Initiations are, and have been,
                handed out with Klemp and Company. Where's the "Spiritual
                Awareness" with Klemp let alone his Higher Initiates? And, as
                I've stated before, HK is changing ECKankar to look more and
                more like his former Lutheran Church and Christianity in general!

                Prometheus



                Jonathan wrote:

                Prometheus,
                I'm not certain we are on the same track regarding Peter Skelsky
                and memberships. I think your comments are valid. But in the
                talk I am referring to Peter said there would be two different
                membership tracks side by side in Eckankar. Parallel to each
                other, but unrelated. The "no requirements" track would be
                more similar to say someone who is currently a Christian: they
                go to chuch, but that's about it. So the "no requirements" track
                would be in Eckankar just to go to the Worship Services and attend
                seminars; to a large degree just social activities for them. They
                would not read study the Eckankar discourses. They would not
                receive initiations. That is my understanding of what the Eckists
                who were there told me.

                Jonathan

                Prometheus wrote:

                IMO- Peter Skelsky's comments of 15 years of Membership Fees
                corresponds to the same 15 years worth of EK Discourses that
                have been available for years and years! These ECKists with
                initiations 1-4 would have to pay for the Discourses. I believe
                that initiates 5-9 will Not have to pay for a Memberships, BUT
                they would be expected to pay or "donate" their time and money
                (service & coin) in other ways. Those courses and trainings for
                Cleric positions, Initiator positions, ESA positions, and those
                Internet Broadcasts etc. will be how this money will be collected.

                Besides, there are Two different kinds of Memberships now!
                There are Lower and Higher Initiates Memberships just as there
                are Two different Initiate Membership Meetings at Seminars.

                Skelsky and Klemp are merely responding to the criticism that
                has been posted about paying for Lower Plane "spirituality" after
                the outer EK Discourses have been completed. It's kind of like
                "taxation without representation" since the LEM (Outer master)
                is more for the Lower (Plane) Initiates while the Mahanta (Inner
                Master) is more for the Higher (Plane) Initiates and shouldn't be
                concerned with money! Right! Isn't this what the EK Dogma, more
                precisely, states? Thus, future EK membership requirements must
                also change!
              • jonathanjohns96
                Prometheus, When you said I ve stated before, HK is changing ECKankar to look more and more like his former Lutheran Church and Christianity in general! you
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
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                  Prometheus,

                  When you said "I've stated before, HK is changing ECKankar to look
                  more and more like his former Lutheran Church and Christianity in
                  general!" you obviously were saying the same thing as me. I rmember
                  you making comparisons to Klemp's Lutheran Church, but I though you
                  were speaking in vague terms about Klemp turning Eckankar into a
                  social club. I didn't know that you meant he was patterning Eckankar
                  after Christianity.

                  Interesting how we both noticed this independantly, but the
                  membership of Eckankar can't see any of this, or if they do, they
                  don't have a problem with it. It just shows me once more how much
                  these people literally worship Harold Klemp. It doesn't matter what
                  hair-brained scheme Klemp comes up with, the membership goes right
                  along with it.

                  A worship service? On Sunday morning? It certainly sounds exactly
                  like Christianity to me. Shouldn't all of that raise some red flags
                  to the mebership of Eckankar?

                  I've been questioning why Eckankar has a worship service for many
                  years. Probably since it was first instituted which I believe was
                  before 1999 even.

                  It's amazing how I independantly figured out many of the same things
                  that you did about Eckankar, yet we have never even met or
                  communicated until a few short weeks ago.
                  Jonathan
                • etznab@aol.com
                  A worship service? On Sunday morning? It certainly sounds exactly like Christianity to me. Shouldn t all of that raise some red flags to the mebership of
                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 5, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    "A worship service? On Sunday morning? It
                    certainly sounds exactly like Christianity to me.
                    Shouldn't all of that raise some red flags to the
                    mebership of Eckankar?"

                    My question is: "Worship of what?" Since
                    the "Living Eck Master" is supposedly not to
                    be worshipped as "God". However, I thought
                    that was what people worshipped at church.
                    God?

                    God, or Sugmad, is what Paul Twitchell (&
                    Rebazar Tarzs) appeared to worship in Brad
                    Steiger's book but, judging by the amount of
                    pictures in Eckankar Centers depicting Eck
                    Masters and the leader of Eckankar, it does
                    seem that the emphasis is on Eck Masters &
                    the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master when one
                    combines these with the "worship" of them by
                    members.

                    Granted, I can't speak for all Eck Centers
                    but, in my opinion, the books and promotional
                    materials do seem to put a lot of emphasis on
                    "Eck Masters". In fact, this is what appears to
                    be a major "selling point" of Eckankar dogma
                    and what even (in some instances) is claimed
                    to be "unique" about Eckankar when compared
                    with other paths.

                    I wonder if true these are not worshipped?

                    I wonder, too, about the emphasis they are
                    not to be worshipped.

                    Does the word "worshipped" mean not to be
                    worshipped as God(s)? Because, maybe this is
                    why peoope leave Eckankar? I mean, when they
                    feel forced to "worship" Eck Masters as "God"?

                    Once, at a table for the public, a person came
                    up to find out about what Eckankar believed. As
                    soon as they heard about the Living Eck Master
                    being like a guru and representative of God they
                    said something like: "See, I don't believe in that"
                    and they turned and walked away. It was fine up
                    until that point. They were curious and interested
                    before that.

                    Etznab


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 2:21 pm
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Promotion of Eckankar Part 1
                    of 3- Dummying-Down of Eckankar



                    Prometheus,



                    When you said "I've stated before, HK is changing ECKankar to look

                    more and more like his former Lutheran Church and Christianity in

                    general!" you obviously were saying the same thing as me. I rmember

                    you making comparisons to Klemp's Lutheran Church, but I though you

                    were speaking in vague terms about Klemp turning Eckankar into a

                    social club. I didn't know that you meant he was patterning Eckankar

                    after Christianity.



                    Interesting how we both noticed this independantly, but the

                    membership of Eckankar can't see any of this, or if they do, they

                    don't have a problem with it. It just shows me once more how much

                    these people literally worship Harold Klemp. It doesn't matter what

                    hair-brained scheme Klemp comes up with, the membership goes right

                    along with it.



                    A worship service? On Sunday morning? It certainly sounds exactly

                    like Christianity to me. Shouldn't all of that raise some red flags

                    to the mebership of Eckankar?



                    I've been questioning why Eckankar has a worship service for many

                    years. Probably since it was first instituted which I believe was

                    before 1999 even.



                    It's amazing how I independantly figured out many of the same things

                    that you did about Eckankar, yet we have never even met or

                    communicated until a few short weeks ago.

                    Jonathan
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