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Re: Is Rebazar Tarz Tibetan, Indian, Pakistani or Afghani

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Jonathan, I agree, Rebazar is Not Tibetan, nor a Lama, as Twitch had claimed. The Dalai Lama, and other lamas, and Buddhist Monks, look Asian or part
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 10, 2009
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      Hello Jonathan,
      I agree, Rebazar is Not "Tibetan," nor a "Lama,"
      as Twitch had claimed. The Dalai Lama, and
      other lamas, and Buddhist Monks, look Asian
      or part Asian, and Rebazar Does Not! You've
      made some very good points!

      I think that the ECKist you spoke to about
      Rebazar Not looking Tibetan got very defensive
      because she (unconsciously) had to protect herself
      from the Truth. If not, her imaginary world might
      have developed fractures in its foundation. And
      then what?! She isn't ready to explore any "what
      ifs," or to open herself up to any drastic changes
      toward higher levels of consciousness. ECKists
      can't think out of the box because that would
      entail a Freedom of Will and Thought versus blindly
      accepting and following myth and dogma.

      Perhaps, the fictional character, and Master, Rebazar
      Tarzs, actually represents the Potential of everyone's
      inner Self (Soul). Thus, the stories about Rebazar,
      along with the conversations (like in "Stranger By
      The River"), are merely fables.

      I'll have to repost Twitchell's descriptions of his
      ECK Masters, unless, I can find the post in the
      archives. The descriptions given in "Difficulties
      Of Becoming The Living ECK Master" are much
      different than what Klemp gives and are very
      different from the sketches that are offered for
      sale, as well as, the ones on display at The Temple
      of EK and at EK Centers.

      Prometheus


      Jonathan Wrote:
      I quit Eckankar in December of 2008. A little while before this I was
      at the local Eck center and I decided to "test the waters" as far as
      people there being able to tolerate divergent opinions. I was in a
      group of people and I guess we were talking about Rebazar or
      something when I asked "If Rebazar is from Tibet then why doesn't he
      look Tibetan?" I then added "Tibetans look like Chinese. Rebazar
      looks like he is from India." But then one hard-liner Eckist snapped
      at me "Tibetans look like Indians!" I didn't say anything back
      because I knew it was futile. It would be like talking to a brick
      wall.

      What I would have said to her had I wanted to continue our argument
      is "Did you ever look at the magazine "National Geographic? If you
      would do that, you would see that I am correct. Tibetans look like
      Chinese." For those of you reading this, you can prove my assertion
      that Tibetans look Chinese by going to Google.com and searching for
      images for "Tibetan man" or Tibetan woman." You'll see that they look
      Chinese.

      But I decided to take this a little further and conduct my own little
      research project on this. I have had a lot of friends from foreign
      countries over the years. During that time I discovered that people
      in Asia and Southeast Asia can distinguish each other just by the way
      they look. For example, Japanese know what Koreans look like. Chinese
      know what Filipinos look like. Thais know what Burmese look like.
      This is determined just by the other person's appearance and it has
      nothing to do with the clothes they are wearing.

      So I postulated to myself "I wonder whether Indians can distinguish
      between Indians, Pakistanis, etc.?" I knew two people from India
      casually, and I had already asked them a few cultural questions about
      India, so I thought that I would give it a try.

      On November 5, 2008, I was driving over to talk to the first person.
      I had 5x7 photo of Rebazar with me. As I was driving over, my
      intuition must have kicked into high gear because I had an
      interesting thought. As I thought about Rebazar's photo, it suddenly
      occurred to me "Rebazar actually looks more Pakistani than Indian."

      I arrived at my destination, and took Rebazar's photo in. I showed it
      to my acquaintance who is from Northern India. She is not a native
      Hindi speaker, but is fluent in Hindi. About Rebazar, she said "He
      looks Pakistani. He definitely doesn't look Tibetan. Also, he has
      a `strong face' which makes him look Muslim. I am fairly certain he
      is a Muslim. Also, men in India are either clean-shaven or they have
      a beard down to their belly button. Men in India can have a mustache,
      but they never have a trimmed beard like this man has."

      Interesting, isn't it? Interesting what you can find out when you
      talk to a real human being who grew up in Northern India instead of
      just believing the fairy tales that Eckankar dishes out.

      On November 15, 2008, I went over to see my second acquaintance from
      India. She is a native Hindi speaker. I showed her my large photo of
      Rebazar Tarz. I asked:

      Does he look Indian? No.
      Does he look Pakistani? No.

      Then she told me "He looks Afghani to me." I then asked "Does he look
      Muslim?" She said "Yes." I then asked her whether he looks Tibetan.
      She said "No!"

      So if you want to know whether Rebazar Tarz looks Tibetan, all you
      need is a National Geographic and a few friends from India or
      Pakistan and you can figure it out yourself.

      One of the reasons I did this little "study" is because I wanted to
      prove that any ordinary person can prove that Eckankar's assertion
      that Rebazar is from Tibet has a lot of problems. David Lane looked
      through Paul Twitchell's earliest writings and proved that Rebazar
      was invented as a "replacement" for several other of Paul's teachers.
      But followers of Eckankar always say that "Lane has a grudge against
      Eckankar" or "Lane wanted to get rich and famous by attacking
      Eckankar."

      But I have pretty much have proven that Eckankar's assertion of a
      Tibetan monk who...

      1. Looks Pakistani or Afghani.
      2. Looks Muslim.
      3. Is supposedly from Tibet where people look Chinese and are devout
      Buddhists.

      ...is more than a little bit suspicious.

      Even I could think up a convoluted scenario to explain all of these
      contradictions, but my point is this. In the meeting I was in, I
      couldn't even get a rational response from the Eckists there. All
      they could do is attack me for daring to disagree with Eckankar's
      story line.

      Just a short post-note regarding Gopal Das.
      On November 6, 2008 I went back and spoke with the first lady, the
      non-native Hindi speaker. I showed her a group photo containing about
      12 Eck masters. She was looking at it when she suddenly
      exclaimed "Oh, Gopal is a Hindi name… And, Das is a Hindi name." Also
      I would like to point out that she pronounced Gopal and Das like
      members of Eckankar do. So this makes Gopal Das even more ridiculous.
      Not only is he a tall, blond-haired, blue-eyed Eck master in Egypt in
      3,000 BC, but he has a Hindi name which is pronounced by Eckists the
      same way that this Hindi name is pronounced in India.

      On November 15, 2008, when I went over to see my second acquaintance
      from India who happens to be a native Hindi speaker, I asked her to
      look at some photos of the masters of Eckankar. I showed her a small
      color photo of Gopal Das. The first thing she did was state that
      Gopal Das is a Hindi name. I was almost embarrassed to do so, but I
      sheepishly pointed out that he didn't look Egyptian. She agreed.

      Also, I may be the first person to have discovered this. There was an
      historical figure in India named "Swami Gopal Das." Wikipedia lists
      him as a social reformer rather than an actual Guru.

      Link to "Swami Gopal Das aat Wikipedia
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Gopal_Das

      It's very likely that this is where Paul Twitchell got the
      name "Gopal Das."

      So this is one of the things that really pushed me over the edge
      regarding my decision to leave Eckankar. I had to face up to the
      obvious and sometime ridiculous discrepancies in the Eckankar story
      line. I also had to face up to the fact that the members of Eckankar
      are really kooky. They are so caught up in their fantasy that they
      are living in their own make-believe world where completely
      ridiculous contradictions are simply overlooked.

      In closing, I am certain that people in Tibet know the difference
      between Chinese and Tibetans based only on their appearance. When I
      say that they look the same I am only speaking in general terms.

      Also, I have read the first two-thirds of "Confessions" and I believe
      Ford may have pointed out a lot of what I posted in this thread. The
      same is true for David Lane's postings on his website.

      Update:
      I just read through "Confessions." I found a brief discussion about
      Gopal Das on page 136. Ford was talking about how Paul Twitchell
      created Eck Masters:

      "Another example of this art of creation is the Eck Master Gopal Das.
      Gopal is another name for Krishna (God) Dasa means "slave"
      or "disciple." Gopal Das was Eckankar's purported Eck Master in
      ancient Egypt."

      Ford doesn't mention which Indian language he is using, but a Hindi
      translation website shows:

      gopaal
      1. a keeper of cows
      2. a milkman
      3. an epithet of Lord Krishna

      das
      1. ten
      2. 10

      daas
      1. a slave
      2. a servant
      3. helot
      4. servitor
      5. hanger-on
      6. bondman
      7. menial
      8. thrall
      9. valet
      10. vassal
      11. seneschal
      12. title of a Shoodra
      13. a Shoodra
      14. a fisherman
      15. a thief

      Since it would appear that the "aa" in gopaal would be pronounced the
      same as the "aa" in daas, I am assuming that the Hindi word "das"
      meaning "ten" is more likely the correct translation for the Hindi
      name Gopal Das.

      By the way, this Hindi translation website doesn't allow links to a
      specific search, but the general URL is:

      Hindi, Telugu, and Eglish translation website called "Word Anywhere"
      http://www.wordanywhere.com/cgi-bin/fetch.pl

      Lastly, I believe that either Ford or David mentioned that Rebazar
      perhaps looks Muslim. It would be nice to ask a few more people from
      that part of the world, especially Pakistanis and Afghanis.
    • jonathanjohns96
      Prometheus: Regarding the lady who got defensive, you are exactly correct. Today, I look at it exactly the same whay that you do. Back then I m sure I was
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 11, 2009
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        Prometheus:

        Regarding the lady who got defensive, you are exactly correct. Today,
        I look at it exactly the same whay that you do. Back then I'm sure I
        was aware of it to a large degree also. But back then I found this
        behavior so hard to believe that it was if I had to repeat it five
        times with different people at the Eck center before it really sank
        into me "These people really are living in their own world where
        reality doesn't matter." At times, from my point of view, it was
        bordering on a Kafkaesque nightmare. Also, I think at some level, I
        was hoping that somehow these people were going to change. When I
        finally realized that they weren't, I was one big step closer to
        leaving Eckankar.

        bty, I think that Ford Johnson's implication that Gopal Das could
        mean, as I read it, "Disciple of Krishna" is as good as any
        interpretation. It's really a moot point anyway becasue the Hindi
        word for "das" would translate into English as "Das", and the Hindi
        word for "daas" would also translate into English as "Das." We'll
        never know which one Twitch was using, nor does it matter. We would
        need to see the original Hindi script which in Twitchell's case we
        are never going to see. The important point is that both Gopal and
        Das are Hindi names in India, something that Ford already figured out
        and I unexpectedly confirmed with two people from India. I must have
        been dozing when I read that in Ford's book, because I honestly don't
        remember it. When the first lady from India told me that Gopal Das
        was a Hindi name I was surprised, but at the same time I was saying
        to myself "Ya know, it does sound Hindi, doesn't it?"


        Prometheus wrote:
        Hello Jonathan,
        I agree, Rebazar is Not "Tibetan," nor a "Lama,"
        as Twitch had claimed. The Dalai Lama, and
        other lamas, and Buddhist Monks, look Asian
        or part Asian, and Rebazar Does Not! You've
        made some very good points!

        I think that the ECKist you spoke to about
        Rebazar Not looking Tibetan got very defensive
        because she (unconsciously) had to protect herself
        from the Truth. If not, her imaginary world might
        have developed fractures in its foundation. And
        then what?! She isn't ready to explore any "what
        ifs," or to open herself up to any drastic changes
        toward higher levels of consciousness. ECKists
        can't think out of the box because that would
        entail a Freedom of Will and Thought versus blindly
        accepting and following myth and dogma.

        Perhaps, the fictional character, and Master, Rebazar
        Tarzs, actually represents the Potential of everyone's
        inner Self (Soul). Thus, the stories about Rebazar,
        along with the conversations (like in "Stranger By
        The River"), are merely fables.

        I'll have to repost Twitchell's descriptions of his
        ECK Masters, unless, I can find the post in the
        archives. The descriptions given in "Difficulties
        Of Becoming The Living ECK Master" are much
        different than what Klemp gives and are very
        different from the sketches that are offered for
        sale, as well as, the ones on display at The Temple
        of EK and at EK Centers.

        Prometheus
      • etznab@aol.com
        Perhaps, the fictional character, and Master, Rebazar Tarzs, actually represents the Potential of everyone s inner Self (Soul). Thus, the stories about
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 13, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          "Perhaps, the fictional character, and Master, Rebazar
          Tarzs, actually represents the Potential of everyone's
          inner Self (Soul). Thus, the stories about Rebazar,
          along with the conversations (like in "Stranger By
          The River"), are merely fables."

          Have you ever wondered if that is not what
          the L.E.M. is, too? "the Potential of everyone's
          inner Self (Soul)." ?

          I'm curious if history began to include "certain
          persons only" because they were knowledgeable
          about this very simple and basic axiom? And also
          because not everybody else "could" believe it?

          Once one person is set up above everyone
          else, it seems to me, that, in itself, could serve
          to limit the potential for Soul's spiritual unfold-
          ment to the higher levels.

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 8:01 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Rebazar Tarz Tibetan,
          Indian, Pakistani or Afghani



          Hello Jonathan,

          I agree, Rebazar is Not "Tibetan," nor a "Lama,"

          as Twitch had claimed. The Dalai Lama, and

          other lamas, and Buddhist Monks, look Asian

          or part Asian, and Rebazar Does Not! You've

          made some very good points!



          I think that the ECKist you spoke to about

          Rebazar Not looking Tibetan got very defensive

          because she (unconsciously) had to protect herself

          from the Truth. If not, her imaginary=2
          0world might

          have developed fractures in its foundation. And

          then what?! She isn't ready to explore any "what

          ifs," or to open herself up to any drastic changes

          toward higher levels of consciousness. ECKists

          can't think out of the box because that would

          entail a Freedom of Will and Thought versus blindly

          accepting and following myth and dogma.



          Perhaps, the fictional character, and Master, Rebazar

          Tarzs, actually represents the Potential of everyone's

          inner Self (Soul). Thus, the stories about Rebazar,

          along with the conversations (like in "Stranger By

          The River"), are merely fables.



          I'll have to repost Twitchell's descriptions of his

          ECK Masters, unless, I can find the post in the

          archives. The descriptions given in "Difficulties

          Of Becoming The Living ECK Master" are much

          different than what Klemp gives and are very

          different from the sketches that are offered for

          sale, as well as, the ones on display at The Temple

          of EK and at EK Centers.



          Prometheus



          Jonathan Wrote:

          I quit Eckankar in December of 2008. A little while before this I was

          at the local Eck center and I decided to "test the waters" as far as

          people there being able to tolerate divergent opinions. I was in a

          group of people and I guess we were talking about Rebazar or

          something when I asked "If Rebazar is from Tibet then why=2
          0doesn't he

          look Tibetan?" I then added "Tibetans look like Chinese. Rebazar

          looks like he is from India." But then one hard-liner Eckist snapped

          at me "Tibetans look like Indians!" I didn't say anything back

          because I knew it was futile. It would be like talking to a brick

          wall.



          What I would have said to her had I wanted to continue our argument

          is "Did you ever look at the magazine "National Geographic? If you

          would do that, you would see that I am correct. Tibetans look like

          Chinese." For those of you reading this, you can prove my assertion

          that Tibetans look Chinese by going to Google.com and searching for

          images for "Tibetan man" or Tibetan woman." You'll see that they look

          Chinese.



          But I decided to take this a little further and conduct my own little

          research project on this. I have had a lot of friends from foreign

          countries over the years. During that time I discovered that people

          in Asia and Southeast Asia can distinguish each other just by the way

          they look. For example, Japanese know what Koreans look like. Chinese

          know what Filipinos look like. Thais know what Burmese look like.

          This is determined just by the other person's appearance and it has

          nothing to do with the clothes they are wearing.



          So I postulated to myself "I wonder whether Indians can distinguish

          between Indians, Pakistanis, etc.?" I knew two20people from India

          casually, and I had already asked them a few cultural questions about

          India, so I thought that I would give it a try.



          On November 5, 2008, I was driving over to talk to the first person.

          I had 5x7 photo of Rebazar with me. As I was driving over, my

          intuition must have kicked into high gear because I had an

          interesting thought. As I thought about Rebazar's photo, it suddenly

          occurred to me "Rebazar actually looks more Pakistani than Indian."



          I arrived at my destination, and took Rebazar's photo in. I showed it

          to my acquaintance who is from Northern India. She is not a native

          Hindi speaker, but is fluent in Hindi. About Rebazar, she said "He

          looks Pakistani. He definitely doesn't look Tibetan. Also, he has

          a `strong face' which makes him look Muslim. I am fairly certain he

          is a Muslim. Also, men in India are either clean-shaven or they have

          a beard down to their belly button. Men in India can have a mustache,

          but they never have a trimmed beard like this man has."



          Interesting, isn't it? Interesting what you can find out when you

          talk to a real human being who grew up in Northern India instead of

          just believing the fairy tales that Eckankar dishes out.



          On November 15, 2008, I went over to see my second acquaintance from

          India. She is a native Hindi speaker. I showed her my large photo of
          =0
          A
          Rebazar Tarz. I asked:



          Does he look Indian? No.

          Does he look Pakistani? No.



          Then she told me "He looks Afghani to me." I then asked "Does he look

          Muslim?" She said "Yes." I then asked her whether he looks Tibetan.

          She said "No!"



          So if you want to know whether Rebazar Tarz looks Tibetan, all you

          need is a National Geographic and a few friends from India or

          Pakistan and you can figure it out yourself.



          One of the reasons I did this little "study" is because I wanted to

          prove that any ordinary person can prove that Eckankar's assertion

          that Rebazar is from Tibet has a lot of problems. David Lane looked

          through Paul Twitchell's earliest writings and proved that Rebazar

          was invented as a "replacement" for several other of Paul's teachers.

          But followers of Eckankar always say that "Lane has a grudge against

          Eckankar" or "Lane wanted to get rich and famous by attacking

          Eckankar."



          But I have pretty much have proven that Eckankar's assertion of a

          Tibetan monk who...



          1. Looks Pakistani or Afghani.

          2. Looks Muslim.

          3. Is supposedly from Tibet where people look Chinese and are devout

          Buddhists.



          ...is more than a little bit suspicious.



          Even I could think up a convoluted scenario to explain all of these

          contradictions, but my point is this. In the meeting I was in
          , I

          couldn't even get a rational response from the Eckists there. All

          they could do is attack me for daring to disagree with Eckankar's

          story line.



          Just a short post-note regarding Gopal Das.

          On November 6, 2008 I went back and spoke with the first lady, the

          non-native Hindi speaker. I showed her a group photo containing about

          12 Eck masters. She was looking at it when she suddenly

          exclaimed "Oh, Gopal is a Hindi name… And, Das is a Hindi name." Also

          I would like to point out that she pronounced Gopal and Das like

          members of Eckankar do. So this makes Gopal Das even more ridiculous.

          Not only is he a tall, blond-haired, blue-eyed Eck master in Egypt in

          3,000 BC, but he has a Hindi name which is pronounced by Eckists the

          same way that this Hindi name is pronounced in India.



          On November 15, 2008, when I went over to see my second acquaintance

          from India who happens to be a native Hindi speaker, I asked her to

          look at some photos of the masters of Eckankar. I showed her a small

          color photo of Gopal Das. The first thing she did was state that

          Gopal Das is a Hindi name. I was almost embarrassed to do so, but I

          sheepishly pointed out that he didn't look Egyptian. She agreed.



          Also, I may be the first person to have discovered this. There was an

          historical figure in India named "Swami Gopal Das." Wikipedia=2
          0lists

          him as a social reformer rather than an actual Guru.



          Link to "Swami Gopal Das aat Wikipedia

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Gopal_Das



          It's very likely that this is where Paul Twitchell got the

          name "Gopal Das."



          So this is one of the things that really pushed me over the edge

          regarding my decision to leave Eckankar. I had to face up to the

          obvious and sometime ridiculous discrepancies in the Eckankar story

          line. I also had to face up to the fact that the members of Eckankar

          are really kooky. They are so caught up in their fantasy that they

          are living in their own make-believe world where completely

          ridiculous contradictions are simply overlooked.



          In closing, I am certain that people in Tibet know the difference

          between Chinese and Tibetans based only on their appearance. When I

          say that they look the same I am only speaking in general terms.



          Also, I have read the first two-thirds of "Confessions" and I believe

          Ford may have pointed out a lot of what I posted in this thread. The

          same is true for David Lane's postings on his website.



          Update:

          I just read through "Confessions." I found a brief discussion about

          Gopal Das on page 136. Ford was talking about how Paul Twitchell

          created Eck Masters:



          "Another example of this art of creation is the Eck Master Gopal Das.

          Gopal is
          another name for Krishna (God) Dasa means "slave"

          or "disciple." Gopal Das was Eckankar's purported Eck Master in

          ancient Egypt."



          Ford doesn't mention which Indian language he is using, but a Hindi

          translation website shows:



          gopaal

          1. a keeper of cows

          2. a milkman

          3. an epithet of Lord Krishna



          das

          1. ten

          2. 10



          daas

          1. a slave

          2. a servant

          3. helot

          4. servitor

          5. hanger-on

          6. bondman

          7. menial

          8. thrall

          9. valet

          10. vassal

          11. seneschal

          12. title of a Shoodra

          13. a Shoodra

          14. a fisherman

          15. a thief



          Since it would appear that the "aa" in gopaal would be pronounced the

          same as the "aa" in daas, I am assuming that the Hindi word "das"

          meaning "ten" is more likely the correct translation for the Hindi

          name Gopal Das.



          By the way, this Hindi translation website doesn't allow links to a

          specific search, but the general URL is:



          Hindi, Telugu, and Eglish translation website called "Word Anywhere"

          http://www.wordanywhere.com/cgi-bin/fetch.pl



          Lastly, I believe that either Ford or David mentioned that Rebazar

          perhaps looks Muslim. It would be nice to ask a few more people from

          that part of the world, especially Pakistanis and Afghanis.
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