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KLEMP KARMA Re: The Mystic World Dec. 2008 (Q&A)

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  • Non ekster
    I ve run into this idiotic eckie belief about karma and relationships with many of my eckie friends. They would have you believe that you are causing THEM bad
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 28, 2008
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      I've run into this idiotic eckie belief about karma and relationships
      with many of my eckie friends. They would have you believe that you
      are causing THEM bad karma for not being eckie, like them. The
      opposite is the Truth. Common sense simply tells you that it is best
      to avoid relationships with individuals who are Toxic, Sociopathic and
      Narcissistic, mainly because they will lie to you, have no conscience
      and will harm you in many ways, if you ignore your gut instinct and
      give them all your trust. It is just ordinary Psychology. It is like
      the syndrome in which abuse (verbal and/or physical) is somehow
      normalized. The unfortunate victim starts to blame him or herself.

      It may be painful at first to wake up and break away, but to not do so
      is like biting your lower lip over and over again til it bleeds,
      bashing your head on a wall til it bleeds, taking Meth til your teeth
      fall out and so on. In a sense, it IS self-inflicted, but let's not
      forget who the ENABLER or DRUG PUSHER is. It is KLEMP and those who
      support him, similar to those who supported HITLER. Without his
      following, KLEMP is NOTHING!

      Klemp is just another perpetrator making excuses for his continued
      abusive and TOXIC Behavior, as well as all of his cronies and thugs.
      He should be Sued and Arrested and put in jail.

      Especially the ones who know all the facts, and still cling to their
      ego driven initiation scam. Their behavior is criminal and of course,
      dishonest. Think of the Karma that is developed by having anything to
      do with KLEMP and his PALS or GANG.

      nonekster

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      Re: The Mystic World Dec. 2008 (Q&A)

      Hello All,
      It's interesting to note that neither
      of these two questions were signed.
      Did Joan pose the first question while
      HK posed the second one? Klemp makes
      his response very personal by saying
      "you," often, rather than saying "one."

      ASK THE MASTER #2 (of 2)

      Q: "My question may be valuable information
      for all, particularly the youth--IF they have
      the ears to hear. I so wish I could tell them
      what Not to do, as I have definitely learned
      the hard way.

      Here is my question: Do we take on the karma
      of an individual with whom we are intimate,
      even IF there is Not a marriage? And IF so,
      how is this worked through by Soul?"

      ANSWER:

      HK: "Most Certainly! While there May or May
      Not be a problem with VENEREAL DISEASES,
      there is SURELY the Added Complication of
      an Emotional Tie-in.

      Was your love Finally Rejected? Or, did you
      reject another's love?

      Every Relationship has an Echo of Sorts and
      Will Color Your Outlook, for Good or Ill, toward
      others.

      Every Relationship is Based on Karma. It May
      be one from the Distant Past OR Immediate
      present. ALL KARMA must be Resolved, though.

      This DOES NOT suggest that one is to Avoid
      ALL relationships. BUT Do Make WISE choices!

      After all, YOU Will Have To Live With Them as
      surely as the sun rises.

      So Many Times I Say, Be Honest With yourself.
      Do Your Spiritual Exercises. YOU are Soul!

      The Exercises are your Direct Line to the Inner
      Master. He is the Wayshower, the one who can
      Lead you Safely through the Minefields of life."

      [end, My Caps]

      Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Non ekster and All, I agree that without the ECKankar org Klemp would be nothing and nobody special. And, the same applies to many of his Higher
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 28, 2008
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        Hello Non ekster and All,
        I agree that without the ECKankar org Klemp
        would be nothing and nobody special. And,
        the same applies to many of his Higher Initiates.
        ECKankar has become a "feel good" religion.

        Klemp's ego has rationalized his mocked-up
        "as if" performance because he feels he is providing
        a service.

        The gullible, misinformed, wanting, and even fearful
        "New Age" ECKists are comfortable with ECKankar.
        They've (H.I.s) spent years and years of reading,
        memorizing the jargon and terminology (dogma),
        attending trainings, and doing "missionary" work.
        They stay in ECKankar because of, basically, two
        things. 1) They have nothing to replace ECKankar,
        and, thus, nowhere to go. They've become dependent
        or co-dependent upon an imaginary (pretend) world.
        2) Their egos won't allow them to get away from
        those, so called, "Higher Initiations." The "as if"
        mindset produces a placebo that they mistake
        for the Real. Plus, it feels good for them to think
        that they have attained a "higher" spiritual evolution
        (Plane) over others. Of course this, also, instills
        or brings out negative personality traits like narcissism
        and delusion or magical thinking. Those H.I.s with
        Bi-Polar disorder, and other disorders, are thrown
        more out-of-balance via H.K.'s own imbalanced
        behavior that they emulate. The EMR pretense is
        just one of these that a two edged sword. HK wants
        to keep ECKists away from sites like this one, and
        yet, he wants ECKists Not Attending a major seminar
        to buy his talk on the Internet! If EMR is a factor then
        why put up Internet EK Videos or Seminar talks that
        could harm people via EMR? Is that being responsible?
        No, it's Not!

        Thus, Klemp's "service" to ECKists is to pretend that
        he's someone "special" and to give them hope and
        belief in something greater than themselves and to
        alleviate their fears, especially, of death. Religion
        anyone? For ECKists, their "service" to Klemp is to,
        actually, promote a religion that has all of the "outer"
        monetary requirements of a corporation/religion.
        Get people to "join" ECKankar and dig into their pockets
        for a one year membership, that must be renewed each
        year, and for books and more books (HK gets 50% royalties
        on any book with his name on it), as well as, jewelry,
        video tapes, CDs, Internet broadcasts, and Major and
        Regional EK Seminars, etc. etc.

        Unfortunately, the TRUTH has nothing to do with any
        religion and, especially, with Twitchell's ECKankar that
        Klemp inherited. If there is such a thing as "Karma"
        I'm certain that Klemp will pay the price for misleading
        and deceiving so many Souls. HK has delayed the TRUE
        Spiritual Growth, Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery
        of many many Souls. Klemp is a successful KAL agent!

        Prometheus


        Non ekster wrote:

        I've run into this idiotic eckie belief about karma
        and relationships with many of my eckie friends.
        They would have you believe that you are causing
        THEM bad karma for not being eckie, like them.
        The opposite is the Truth. Common sense simply
        tells you that it is best to avoid relationships with
        individuals who are Toxic, Sociopathic and Narcissistic,
        mainly because they will lie to you, have no conscience
        and will harm you in many ways, if you ignore your
        gut instinct and give them all your trust. It is just
        ordinary Psychology. It is like the syndrome in which
        abuse (verbal and/or physical) is somehow normalized.
        The unfortunate victim starts to blame him or herself.

        It may be painful at first to wake up and break away,
        but to not do so is like biting your lower lip over and
        over again til it bleeds, bashing your head on a wall til
        it bleeds, taking Meth til your teeth fall out and so on.
        In a sense, it IS self-inflicted, but let's not forget who
        the ENABLER or DRUG PUSHER is. It is KLEMP and those
        who support him, similar to those who supported HITLER.
        Without his following, KLEMP is NOTHING!

        Klemp is just another perpetrator making excuses for
        his continued abusive and TOXIC Behavior, as well as
        all of his cronies and thugs. He should be Sued and
        Arrested and put in jail.

        Especially the ones who know all the facts, and still cling
        to their ego driven initiation scam. Their behavior is criminal
        and of course, dishonest. Think of the Karma that is developed
        by having anything to do with KLEMP and his PALS or GANG.

        nonekster


        prometheus wrote:

        The Mystic World Dec. 2008 (Q&A)

        Hello All,
        It's interesting to note that neither
        of these two questions were signed.
        Did Joan pose the first question while
        HK posed the second one? Klemp makes
        his response very personal by saying
        "you," often, rather than saying "one."

        ASK THE MASTER #2 (of 2)

        Q: "My question may be valuable information
        for all, particularly the youth--IF they have
        the ears to hear. I so wish I could tell them
        what Not to do, as I have definitely learned
        the hard way.

        Here is my question: Do we take on the karma
        of an individual with whom we are intimate,
        even IF there is Not a marriage? And IF so,
        how is this worked through by Soul?"

        ANSWER:

        HK: "Most Certainly! While there May or May
        Not be a problem with VENEREAL DISEASES,
        there is SURELY the Added Complication of
        an Emotional Tie-in.

        Was your love Finally Rejected? Or, did you
        reject another's love?

        Every Relationship has an Echo of Sorts and
        Will Color Your Outlook, for Good or Ill, toward
        others.

        Every Relationship is Based on Karma. It May
        be one from the Distant Past OR Immediate
        present. ALL KARMA must be Resolved, though.

        This DOES NOT suggest that one is to Avoid
        ALL relationships. BUT Do Make WISE choices!

        After all, YOU Will Have To Live With Them as
        surely as the sun rises.

        So Many Times I Say, Be Honest With yourself.
        Do Your Spiritual Exercises. YOU are Soul!

        The Exercises are your Direct Line to the Inner
        Master. He is the Wayshower, the one who can
        Lead you Safely through the Minefields of life."

        [end, My Caps]

        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, I have a few comments regarding Klemp s hypocritical and ignorant responses. He s ignoring the facts, as well as, the truth in order to manipulate
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 29, 2008
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          Hello All,
          I have a few comments regarding Klemp's
          hypocritical and ignorant responses. He's
          ignoring the facts, as well as, the truth
          in order to manipulate his needy believers.
          Too bad, so sad, they've been had!


          ASK THE MASTER #2 (of 2)

          Q: "My question may be valuable information
          for all, particularly the youth--IF they have
          the ears to hear. I so wish I could tell them
          what Not to do, as I have definitely learned
          the hard way.

          Here is my question: Do we take on the karma
          of an individual with whom we are intimate,
          even IF there is Not a marriage? And IF so,
          how is this worked through by Soul?"

          ANSWER:

          ME: No! Each Soul has their own specific
          Karma. Each is responsible for their own
          choices even when acting as a group or
          as a couple!

          HK: "Most Certainly! While there May or May
          Not be a problem with VENEREAL DISEASES,
          there is SURELY the Added Complication of
          an Emotional Tie-in."

          ME: With Klemp everything becomes personal
          and, thus, this is what colors his judgment.

          HK: "Was your love Finally Rejected? Or, did
          you reject another's love?"

          ME: It would have been better if Klemp would
          have rephrased this and used "one" instead of
          "you." This is what his Vahanas and Arahatas
          are taught. It's the same for not using "but"
          and "if." Klemp never follows the advice he
          spouts to others, thus, he's a hypocrite!

          BTW- Didn't Harry reject Marge's (his first wife)
          love, as well as, his daughter's love just as Joan
          rejected her first husband!


          HK: "Every Relationship has an Echo of Sorts and
          Will Color Your Outlook, for Good or Ill, toward
          others."

          ME: Klemp is talking about living life and is merely
          stating the obvious! A rain cloud can "color" a
          person's "outlook" and this, too, can have an "echo
          of sorts"

          HK: "Every Relationship is Based on Karma. It
          May be one from the Distant Past OR Immediate
          present. ALL KARMA must be Resolved, though."

          ME: People, of course, have Karma with others
          from past lives, as well as, in this present lifetime!
          Duh! However, Not All relationships are based
          upon "distant past or immediate present" life
          Karma! There's more responsibility involved
          with making right choices than Klemp is claiming!

          HK: "This DOES NOT suggest that one is to Avoid
          ALL relationships. BUT Do Make WISE choices!"

          ME: Did Klemp make a "wise choice" when he
          married Marge, or was that Karma that couldn't
          be avoided? Did Klemp make a "wise choice"
          by treating Darwin as he has? Klemp didn't even
          mention that Darwin Gross the 972nd LEM died!
          And, thus, Klemp (the Mahanta) missed another
          opportunity to say something NICE about Darwin.
          Klemp is not only a hypocrite but is mean spirited
          too! HK holds onto grudges! Is this how a "Master"
          behaves? No way!

          HK: "After all, YOU Will Have To Live With Them
          as surely as the sun rises."

          ME: Well, it doesn't seem that ECKists "live with"
          their choices. They get divorced often and move
          from one relationship to another and to other
          ECKists until the local supply runs out!

          HK: "So Many Times I Say, Be Honest With yourself.
          Do Your Spiritual Exercises. YOU are Soul!"

          ME: Once again, Klemp isn't being "honest" with
          the followers he's speaking to let alone himself!

          HK: "The Exercises are your Direct Line to the Inner
          Master. He is the Wayshower, the one who can
          Lead you Safely through the Minefields of life."
          [end, My Caps]

          ME: No! The ECKankar Spiritual Exercises cannot
          work beyond the limits and restrictions that Klemp
          has placed upon them. How long does Soul need
          a "Wayshower?" And, is Klemp really the Wayshower?
          How does Klemp help with those "minefields." Is
          cancer one of those "minefields?" Is divorse one
          of those "minefields?" Why doesn't Klemp actually
          help and protect his chelas as he claims he does?
          It's because Klemp has No Special Powers! There
          is No Mahanta/Inner Master! There IS only GOD,
          SPIRIT, and SOUL. No middleman/mahanta needed!

          Prometheus


          ASK THE MASTER #1 (of 2)

          Q: "I ran across a wee bit in The Golden
          Heart that I don't remember seeing before.
          It mentioned the Order of the Mahantas.
          Would you tell us more about this, please?"


          HK: "It is a loosely knit brotherhood of all
          who once served as the Mahanta, the Living
          ECK Master."


          ME: So, are all Mahantas LEMs, and are all
          LEMs, also, Mahantas? Maybe LEMs are Mahantas
          but aren't "FULL" 14th Mahantas. I wonder,
          are these FULL, 14th, Mahantas above and apart
          from the lower plane Living ECK Masters (LEMs)?
          Are the 12th and 13th Plane LEM/Mahantas part
          of this Order of Mahantas or are they excluded
          from membership? Darwin was a Mahanta/LEM,
          too, right?


          HK: "Their experiences were unique to that
          position. Yet for all of that, they do not
          hold themselves above or apart from other
          Souls, whether angel, human, animal, plant,
          or mineral."


          ME: WOW! Klemp is saying that the 14th Plane
          'FULL' Mahanta, who is third from the top in
          the EK Spiritual Hierarchy, is NOT "ABOVE"
          or "APART" from 1st Initiates, non-ECKists,
          or even a ROCK in consciousness or position!
          But, how does Soul=Soul work in a RESA Hierarchy?
          It doesn't work! Catch-22!

          BTW- I thought that angels were created without
          a soul and this is why they are jealous of mankind.


          HK: "The members of this order exist to serve
          life. They obey SUGMAD's bidding. This spiritual
          service to all living things is the reason for
          their being, and they would have it no other
          way."


          ME: Well, well! Klemp is really making himself
          look special. However, if he's providing a "service"
          then why doesn't HK ever take responsibility?
          Why does HK attach, ties that bind, his chelas
          to Mahanta dependence forever? It's Money
          and Power! Klemp ties these needy and fearful
          people to him via the EK initiations. He ties
          strings to these promises and hopes in order
          to pull them back and reverse and contradict
          what he had claimed he was giving! What ever
          happened to Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery
          in this lifetime? ECKists will always need the
          Mahanta... Catch-22 again!

          And, are the Promises and Hopes that HK offers
          people all that much different and or a better
          "spiritual service" than what any other preacher
          of any other religion has to offer? Don't all preachers
          think they are providing a "spiritual service" to
          God and that their followers are beneath them?
          ECKankar is built upon a similar basis that all
          religions are built upon... hierarchy, promises,
          and myth!

          Klemp is just trying to justify his lies and feel good
          about himself. He's rationalizing that his deceit is
          okay because it gives a certain group of people with
          a certain mindset hope. Plus, the Higher Initiations
          feed the ego and make most people feel superior,
          and that they are more spiritually evolved. Thus,
          Twitchell's BIG LIE of ECKankar continues as a "spiritual
          service" and mission to mankind. LOL! But, in the end,
          it's just another con and more religious mumbo jumbo
          with more promises! However, it does do harm! HK
          feeds and creates more delusional thinking and this
          delays people from finding their own TRUTH (Reality)
          in this lifetime! And, time is running out for many
          ECKists!

          BTW- "They [the Mahantas] obey SUGMAD's bidding"
          sounds like an Old Testament version of God and
          his angels. Would Sugmad really have to do "bidding"
          to these Mahantas... wouldn't/shouldn't they "Know"
          SUGMAD's WILL? Of course!

          Klemp isn't even close to what he's claiming to
          be... except for the remark about Mahantas not
          being "above" or "apart" from animals, plants,
          and minerals (that would include bullshit too)!

          Prometheus


          The Mystic World of ECKankar Dec. 2008


          "Problems and Their Resolutions"

          Harry starts out, once again, by
          mentioning both famous and obscure
          people from the past. First, HK mentions
          Alexander Graham Bell and that Bell,
          "wisely observed that people's focus
          is so intent upon the CLOSED DOORS
          that they often fail to see the OPEN ONES."

          Klemp must be reading his encyclopedias
          again. It's kind of interesting to see how
          he manipulates the writings of others in
          order to fit his main focus for chelas. With
          Klemp, however, the hidden agenda is always
          Mahanta dependence... forever!

          Next, Klemp talks of "Jean de La Fontaine,
          the French poet known for his fables."
          Hmmmm. Let me check out the definition
          for fable. Fable: 1. A short tale used to teach
          a moral, often with animals as characters.
          2. A story not founded on fact. 3. A legend
          or myth. 4. A lie; falsehood.

          Leave it to a liar (HK) to use another lie
          in order to manipulate his followers.

          Okay, now Klemp retells a "La Fontaine
          fable" of a philosopher visiting Greece
          who sees a guy pruning olive trees and
          is told that the pruning helps the trees to
          grow better and produce more fruit. He
          returns home and assumes that the more
          one prunes the better it is for the trees.
          Thus, with "wild abandon" the man over-
          prunes his own fruit trees.

          Klemp, now, states that the moral behind
          this fable/myth/falsehood is an "example
          of DISCRIMINATION run amok." However,
          we don't know if this is Klemp's interpretation
          and conclusion of the fable or La Fontaine's!
          Anyway, how is this "an example of discrimination
          run amok?" How does good judgment i.e.
          "discrimination" become excessive and "run
          amok?" The excessive pruning is an example
          of: poor judgment; a lack of discrimination; of
          not using good common sense; and of making
          the erroneous assumption that more is better!

          Anyhow, we'll now start to see more of The Path
          to the Trap where Klemp is leading his chelas.

          HK: "In any case, GOOD JUDGMENT DOES DIFFER."

          ME: Whoa! Wait a minute! How did the negative
          action and results of chopping off too many limbs,
          and over-pruning fruit trees due to poor judgment
          ("discrimination run amok") suddenly become a
          "different" version of "GOOD JUDGMENT?"

          HK: "People will try to RESOLVE PROBLEMS that
          SEEMS BEST to them."

          ME: True! HK distorts the truth all the time in
          order to resolve his problem of trying to sound
          like an All-Knowing Master. Just look at how
          we got from over zealous "discrimination" which
          resulted in poor judgment (wild pruning) by referring
          to it as a "different" sort of "good judgment," and
          now, it's what "seems best" for people to "resolve
          problems!"

          HK: "As ads for products will sometimes caution:
          `Results may vary!' They may indeed. Closed
          doors, open doors."

          ME: Actually, according to HK, A. G. Bell said,
          "Closed doors, open Ones." So, is this Klemp's
          way of making a disclaimer? Shouldn't there be
          a written disclaimer made to the public? Really!
          Why doesn't Klemp inform the public by writing
          "RESULTS MAY VARY" in the products he sells
          instead of in a Member's Only publication?

          HK: "The RESOLUTION TO A PROBLEM also
          depends upon an individuals ATTITUDE. Is it
          UPBEAT or DOWNBEAT?"

          ME: Wow! That's great! Klemp gives such good
          advice and so many tips for resolving the problems
          that ECKists may have or experience! I guess
          he's waiting until the end of the article to spring
          the Catch-22. HK's Catch-22 is that regardless
          of whatever is said or hinted at chelas can do
          nothing and can accomplish nothing without the
          Mahanta (Klemp)!

          HK: "Recently I went to the dentist for the
          replacement of a crown."

          ME: The LEM/Mahanta has bad teeth! If Klemp
          has the highest consciousness of any previous
          Mahanta why is it that Rebazar doesn't have
          bad teeth or age like Klemp? That's another
          fable!

          HK: "He did the prep work, Charity, his assistant
          would put in the temporary crown."

          ME: Well, I think good old Harry messed up!
          Now there will be ECKists calling local dentists
          in the Eden Prairie, MN. area asking if there's
          an assistant named Charity. Anyway, Klemp
          goes on to tell about Charity's positive attitude
          after getting some glue on the outside of the
          temporary crown that she was putting in and
          that she was having trouble scraping the excess
          glue off. What Klemp overlooks is the bad karma
          of her having to work very hard at getting the
          glue off, due to her negligence, and Klemp's
          bad karma of having to keep his mouth open
          for so long and not being able to talk! Plus,
          the additional time it took her to get the glue
          off probably put them further behind schedule
          and this would affect other patients' appointments.

          HK: "Charity was forever UPBEAT."

          ME: Or, maybe she screws up a lot and this is
          how she compensates for it (being upbeat) in
          order to down play it so that the patient would
          overlook the extra time it took to complete the job.

          HK: "When I was to do my part of the procedure,
          she would say, "Oh, very good!" How could one
          not keep from trying to please a person like that?
          Joan, my wife is one of these optimists too. They
          see possibilities where others see failures."

          ME: It could be, that in Klemp's case, the dental
          assistant was mocking up a positive and "upbeat"
          attitude because most people don't like going to
          the dentist and are fearful of the pain involved
          with the procedures. Thus, some patients, like
          Klemp, need to encouraged, placated, and catered
          to, more than others.

          BTW- When did Joan become an upbeat optimist?
          I still remember that 09/2003 H.I. Letter where
          Joan went "postal" toward a Third Temporary
          Postal Clerk because she didn't think she needed
          to show her I.D. before he went to look for her
          package. And, that Harry made some very nasty
          and harsh remarks himself after Joan came home
          and recounted the events to Harry. Even after
          more than a week to cool off Klemp still had his
          negative and angry remarks printed!

          HK: "IF you think about it, a SITUATION or a
          CONDITION is what it is."

          ME: How profound! What other words of wisdom
          lie ahead?

          HK: "The dawn of a morning is also what it is.
          One individual will look to the rising sun in the
          east with joy and pleasure, while his counterpart
          looks with foreboding at gathering storm clouds
          in the west."

          ME: Klemp forgot that he said, "In any case,
          good judgment does differ." Thus, one could
          both enjoy the sunrise and evaluate the foreboding
          storm clouds gathering in from the west. Why
          is it one way or the other (black or white) with
          Klemp? Life isn't all that simplistic for those of
          us living in the real world.

          HK: "It stands to reason, then, that we can be
          our own best friend or our own worst enemy."

          ME: I wonder if Klemp watches that TV show,
          "My Own Worst Enemy?" He's kind of schizo
          too!

          HK: "A SATISFACTORY RESOLUTION to our
          FEARS and PROBLEMS lies in our ATTITUDES."

          ME: Just satisfactory? Is there more? If so, what's
          the catch?

          HK: "That is what the Spiritual Exercises of ECK
          are all about. BUT to be SUCCESSFUL, they
          MUST be done with HOPE and EXPECTATION."

          ME: Okay! In other words, we have to psych ourselves,
          do a reprogram, or reaffirm these things and refresh
          our memories of how to do a S.E. and readjust our
          attitudes by becoming more "upbeat" and self-aware.
          That's rather basic over-the-counter stuff!

          HK: "To sum up, GOOD DISCRIMINATION is at
          the heart of RESOLVING a PROBLEM, which, in
          the end, is a LITTLE MORE than meeting yourself.
          It takes experiences OF THE RIGHT KIND to reach
          a TRUE SPIRITUAL OUTLOOK."

          ME: To sum this up, one has to make good judgments
          (versus bad ones) to resolve one's problems. And, that
          all karmic experiences are "good" because Soul will,
          eventually, learn and grow more spiritually aware from
          them.

          HK: "Please remember, THAT IS WHY THE MAHANTA,
          THE LIVING ECK MASTER HAS COME: TO HELP YOU
          ACHIEVE IT."

          ME: However, "RESULTS MAY VARY"... a lot!

          Prometheus
        • Non ekster
          This is very funny and Klemp gets nailed. Nice one! Nonekster ... Hello All, I have a few comments regarding Klemp s hypocritical and ignorant responses. He s
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 29, 2008
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            This is very funny and Klemp gets nailed.

            Nice one!

            Nonekster

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            >Re: The Mystic World Dec. 2008 (Q&A)

            Hello All,
            I have a few comments regarding Klemp's
            hypocritical and ignorant responses. He's
            ignoring the facts, as well as, the truth
            in order to manipulate his needy believers.
            Too bad, so sad, they've been had!


            ASK THE MASTER #2 (of 2)

            Q: "My question may be valuable information
            for all, particularly the youth--IF they have
            the ears to hear. I so wish I could tell them
            what Not to do, as I have definitely learned
            the hard way.

            Here is my question: Do we take on the karma
            of an individual with whom we are intimate,
            even IF there is Not a marriage? And IF so,
            how is this worked through by Soul?"

            ANSWER:

            ME: No! Each Soul has their own specific
            Karma. Each is responsible for their own
            choices even when acting as a group or
            as a couple!

            HK: "Most Certainly! While there May or May
            Not be a problem with VENEREAL DISEASES,
            there is SURELY the Added Complication of
            an Emotional Tie-in."

            ME: With Klemp everything becomes personal
            and, thus, this is what colors his judgment.

            HK: "Was your love Finally Rejected? Or, did
            you reject another's love?"

            ME: It would have been better if Klemp would
            have rephrased this and used "one" instead of
            "you." This is what his Vahanas and Arahatas
            are taught. It's the same for not using "but"
            and "if." Klemp never follows the advice he
            spouts to others, thus, he's a hypocrite!

            BTW- Didn't Harry reject Marge's (his first wife)
            love, as well as, his daughter's love just as Joan
            rejected her first husband!


            HK: "Every Relationship has an Echo of Sorts and
            Will Color Your Outlook, for Good or Ill, toward
            others."

            ME: Klemp is talking about living life and is merely
            stating the obvious! A rain cloud can "color" a
            person's "outlook" and this, too, can have an "echo
            of sorts"

            HK: "Every Relationship is Based on Karma. It
            May be one from the Distant Past OR Immediate
            present. ALL KARMA must be Resolved, though."

            ME: People, of course, have Karma with others
            from past lives, as well as, in this present lifetime!
            Duh! However, Not All relationships are based
            upon "distant past or immediate present" life
            Karma! There's more responsibility involved
            with making right choices than Klemp is claiming!

            HK: "This DOES NOT suggest that one is to Avoid
            ALL relationships. BUT Do Make WISE choices!"

            ME: Did Klemp make a "wise choice" when he
            married Marge, or was that Karma that couldn't
            be avoided? Did Klemp make a "wise choice"
            by treating Darwin as he has? Klemp didn't even
            mention that Darwin Gross the 972nd LEM died!
            And, thus, Klemp (the Mahanta) missed another
            opportunity to say something NICE about Darwin.
            Klemp is not only a hypocrite but is mean spirited
            too! HK holds onto grudges! Is this how a "Master"
            behaves? No way!

            HK: "After all, YOU Will Have To Live With Them
            as surely as the sun rises."

            ME: Well, it doesn't seem that ECKists "live with"
            their choices. They get divorced often and move
            from one relationship to another and to other
            ECKists until the local supply runs out!

            HK: "So Many Times I Say, Be Honest With yourself.
            Do Your Spiritual Exercises. YOU are Soul!"

            ME: Once again, Klemp isn't being "honest" with
            the followers he's speaking to let alone himself!

            HK: "The Exercises are your Direct Line to the Inner
            Master. He is the Wayshower, the one who can
            Lead you Safely through the Minefields of life."
            [end, My Caps]

            ME: No! The ECKankar Spiritual Exercises cannot
            work beyond the limits and restrictions that Klemp
            has placed upon them. How long does Soul need
            a "Wayshower?" And, is Klemp really the Wayshower?
            How does Klemp help with those "minefields." Is
            cancer one of those "minefields?" Is divorse one
            of those "minefields?" Why doesn't Klemp actually
            help and protect his chelas as he claims he does?
            It's because Klemp has No Special Powers! There
            is No Mahanta/Inner Master! There IS only GOD,
            SPIRIT, and SOUL. No middleman/mahanta needed!

            Prometheus


            ASK THE MASTER #1 (of 2)

            Q: "I ran across a wee bit in The Golden
            Heart that I don't remember seeing before.
            It mentioned the Order of the Mahantas.
            Would you tell us more about this, please?"


            HK: "It is a loosely knit brotherhood of all
            who once served as the Mahanta, the Living
            ECK Master."


            ME: So, are all Mahantas LEMs, and are all
            LEMs, also, Mahantas? Maybe LEMs are Mahantas
            but aren't "FULL" 14th Mahantas. I wonder,
            are these FULL, 14th, Mahantas above and apart
            from the lower plane Living ECK Masters (LEMs)?
            Are the 12th and 13th Plane LEM/Mahantas part
            of this Order of Mahantas or are they excluded
            from membership? Darwin was a Mahanta/LEM,
            too, right?


            HK: "Their experiences were unique to that
            position. Yet for all of that, they do not
            hold themselves above or apart from other
            Souls, whether angel, human, animal, plant,
            or mineral."


            ME: WOW! Klemp is saying that the 14th Plane
            'FULL' Mahanta, who is third from the top in
            the EK Spiritual Hierarchy, is NOT "ABOVE"
            or "APART" from 1st Initiates, non-ECKists,
            or even a ROCK in consciousness or position!
            But, how does Soul=Soul work in a RESA Hierarchy?
            It doesn't work! Catch-22!

            BTW- I thought that angels were created without
            a soul and this is why they are jealous of mankind.


            HK: "The members of this order exist to serve
            life. They obey SUGMAD's bidding. This spiritual
            service to all living things is the reason for
            their being, and they would have it no other
            way."


            ME: Well, well! Klemp is really making himself
            look special. However, if he's providing a "service"
            then why doesn't HK ever take responsibility?
            Why does HK attach, ties that bind, his chelas
            to Mahanta dependence forever? It's Money
            and Power! Klemp ties these needy and fearful
            people to him via the EK initiations. He ties
            strings to these promises and hopes in order
            to pull them back and reverse and contradict
            what he had claimed he was giving! What ever
            happened to Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery
            in this lifetime? ECKists will always need the
            Mahanta... Catch-22 again!

            And, are the Promises and Hopes that HK offers
            people all that much different and or a better
            "spiritual service" than what any other preacher
            of any other religion has to offer? Don't all preachers
            think they are providing a "spiritual service" to
            God and that their followers are beneath them?
            ECKankar is built upon a similar basis that all
            religions are built upon... hierarchy, promises,
            and myth!

            Klemp is just trying to justify his lies and feel good
            about himself. He's rationalizing that his deceit is
            okay because it gives a certain group of people with
            a certain mindset hope. Plus, the Higher Initiations
            feed the ego and make most people feel superior,
            and that they are more spiritually evolved. Thus,
            Twitchell's BIG LIE of ECKankar continues as a "spiritual
            service" and mission to mankind. LOL! But, in the end,
            it's just another con and more religious mumbo jumbo
            with more promises! However, it does do harm! HK
            feeds and creates more delusional thinking and this
            delays people from finding their own TRUTH (Reality)
            in this lifetime! And, time is running out for many
            ECKists!

            BTW- "They [the Mahantas] obey SUGMAD's bidding"
            sounds like an Old Testament version of God and
            his angels. Would Sugmad really have to do "bidding"
            to these Mahantas... wouldn't/shouldn't they "Know"
            SUGMAD's WILL? Of course!

            Klemp isn't even close to what he's claiming to
            be... except for the remark about Mahantas not
            being "above" or "apart" from animals, plants,
            and minerals (that would include bullshit too)!

            Prometheus


            The Mystic World of ECKankar Dec. 2008


            "Problems and Their Resolutions"

            Harry starts out, once again, by
            mentioning both famous and obscure
            people from the past. First, HK mentions
            Alexander Graham Bell and that Bell,
            "wisely observed that people's focus
            is so intent upon the CLOSED DOORS
            that they often fail to see the OPEN ONES."

            Klemp must be reading his encyclopedias
            again. It's kind of interesting to see how
            he manipulates the writings of others in
            order to fit his main focus for chelas. With
            Klemp, however, the hidden agenda is always
            Mahanta dependence... forever!

            Next, Klemp talks of "Jean de La Fontaine,
            the French poet known for his fables."
            Hmmmm. Let me check out the definition
            for fable. Fable: 1. A short tale used to teach
            a moral, often with animals as characters.
            2. A story not founded on fact. 3. A legend
            or myth. 4. A lie; falsehood.

            Leave it to a liar (HK) to use another lie
            in order to manipulate his followers.

            Okay, now Klemp retells a "La Fontaine
            fable" of a philosopher visiting Greece
            who sees a guy pruning olive trees and
            is told that the pruning helps the trees to
            grow better and produce more fruit. He
            returns home and assumes that the more
            one prunes the better it is for the trees.
            Thus, with "wild abandon" the man over-
            prunes his own fruit trees.

            Klemp, now, states that the moral behind
            this fable/myth/falsehood is an "example
            of DISCRIMINATION run amok." However,
            we don't know if this is Klemp's interpretation
            and conclusion of the fable or La Fontaine's!
            Anyway, how is this "an example of discrimination
            run amok?" How does good judgment i.e.
            "discrimination" become excessive and "run
            amok?" The excessive pruning is an example
            of: poor judgment; a lack of discrimination; of
            not using good common sense; and of making
            the erroneous assumption that more is better!

            Anyhow, we'll now start to see more of The Path
            to the Trap where Klemp is leading his chelas.

            HK: "In any case, GOOD JUDGMENT DOES DIFFER."

            ME: Whoa! Wait a minute! How did the negative
            action and results of chopping off too many limbs,
            and over-pruning fruit trees due to poor judgment
            ("discrimination run amok") suddenly become a
            "different" version of "GOOD JUDGMENT?"

            HK: "People will try to RESOLVE PROBLEMS that
            SEEMS BEST to them."

            ME: True! HK distorts the truth all the time in
            order to resolve his problem of trying to sound
            like an All-Knowing Master. Just look at how
            we got from over zealous "discrimination" which
            resulted in poor judgment (wild pruning) by referring
            to it as a "different" sort of "good judgment," and
            now, it's what "seems best" for people to "resolve
            problems!"

            HK: "As ads for products will sometimes caution:
            `Results may vary!' They may indeed. Closed
            doors, open doors."

            ME: Actually, according to HK, A. G. Bell said,
            "Closed doors, open Ones." So, is this Klemp's
            way of making a disclaimer? Shouldn't there be
            a written disclaimer made to the public? Really!
            Why doesn't Klemp inform the public by writing
            "RESULTS MAY VARY" in the products he sells
            instead of in a Member's Only publication?

            HK: "The RESOLUTION TO A PROBLEM also
            depends upon an individuals ATTITUDE. Is it
            UPBEAT or DOWNBEAT?"

            ME: Wow! That's great! Klemp gives such good
            advice and so many tips for resolving the problems
            that ECKists may have or experience! I guess
            he's waiting until the end of the article to spring
            the Catch-22. HK's Catch-22 is that regardless
            of whatever is said or hinted at chelas can do
            nothing and can accomplish nothing without the
            Mahanta (Klemp)!

            HK: "Recently I went to the dentist for the
            replacement of a crown."

            ME: The LEM/Mahanta has bad teeth! If Klemp
            has the highest consciousness of any previous
            Mahanta why is it that Rebazar doesn't have
            bad teeth or age like Klemp? That's another
            fable!

            HK: "He did the prep work, Charity, his assistant
            would put in the temporary crown."

            ME: Well, I think good old Harry messed up!
            Now there will be ECKists calling local dentists
            in the Eden Prairie, MN. area asking if there's
            an assistant named Charity. Anyway, Klemp
            goes on to tell about Charity's positive attitude
            after getting some glue on the outside of the
            temporary crown that she was putting in and
            that she was having trouble scraping the excess
            glue off. What Klemp overlooks is the bad karma
            of her having to work very hard at getting the
            glue off, due to her negligence, and Klemp's
            bad karma of having to keep his mouth open
            for so long and not being able to talk! Plus,
            the additional time it took her to get the glue
            off probably put them further behind schedule
            and this would affect other patients' appointments.

            HK: "Charity was forever UPBEAT."

            ME: Or, maybe she screws up a lot and this is
            how she compensates for it (being upbeat) in
            order to down play it so that the patient would
            overlook the extra time it took to complete the job.

            HK: "When I was to do my part of the procedure,
            she would say, "Oh, very good!" How could one
            not keep from trying to please a person like that?
            Joan, my wife is one of these optimists too. They
            see possibilities where others see failures."

            ME: It could be, that in Klemp's case, the dental
            assistant was mocking up a positive and "upbeat"
            attitude because most people don't like going to
            the dentist and are fearful of the pain involved
            with the procedures. Thus, some patients, like
            Klemp, need to encouraged, placated, and catered
            to, more than others.

            BTW- When did Joan become an upbeat optimist?
            I still remember that 09/2003 H.I. Letter where
            Joan went "postal" toward a Third Temporary
            Postal Clerk because she didn't think she needed
            to show her I.D. before he went to look for her
            package. And, that Harry made some very nasty
            and harsh remarks himself after Joan came home
            and recounted the events to Harry. Even after
            more than a week to cool off Klemp still had his
            negative and angry remarks printed!

            HK: "IF you think about it, a SITUATION or a
            CONDITION is what it is."

            ME: How profound! What other words of wisdom
            lie ahead?

            HK: "The dawn of a morning is also what it is.
            One individual will look to the rising sun in the
            east with joy and pleasure, while his counterpart
            looks with foreboding at gathering storm clouds
            in the west."

            ME: Klemp forgot that he said, "In any case,
            good judgment does differ." Thus, one could
            both enjoy the sunrise and evaluate the foreboding
            storm clouds gathering in from the west. Why
            is it one way or the other (black or white) with
            Klemp? Life isn't all that simplistic for those of
            us living in the real world.

            HK: "It stands to reason, then, that we can be
            our own best friend or our own worst enemy."

            ME: I wonder if Klemp watches that TV show,
            "My Own Worst Enemy?" He's kind of schizo
            too!

            HK: "A SATISFACTORY RESOLUTION to our
            FEARS and PROBLEMS lies in our ATTITUDES."

            ME: Just satisfactory? Is there more? If so, what's
            the catch?

            HK: "That is what the Spiritual Exercises of ECK
            are all about. BUT to be SUCCESSFUL, they
            MUST be done with HOPE and EXPECTATION."

            ME: Okay! In other words, we have to psych ourselves,
            do a reprogram, or reaffirm these things and refresh
            our memories of how to do a S.E. and readjust our
            attitudes by becoming more "upbeat" and self-aware.
            That's rather basic over-the-counter stuff!

            HK: "To sum up, GOOD DISCRIMINATION is at
            the heart of RESOLVING a PROBLEM, which, in
            the end, is a LITTLE MORE than meeting yourself.
            It takes experiences OF THE RIGHT KIND to reach
            a TRUE SPIRITUAL OUTLOOK."

            ME: To sum this up, one has to make good judgments
            (versus bad ones) to resolve one's problems. And, that
            all karmic experiences are "good" because Soul will,
            eventually, learn and grow more spiritually aware from
            them.

            HK: "Please remember, THAT IS WHY THE MAHANTA,
            THE LIVING ECK MASTER HAS COME: TO HELP YOU
            ACHIEVE IT."

            ME: However, "RESULTS MAY VARY"... a lot!

            Prometheus
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