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RE: Truthdecider's Post, "The Ex-Eckist Critics Vs. The Ex-Eckist Apologists

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  • mishmisha9
    Hello, Truthdecider and All! It seems to be that we are all going around in circles a bit, debating what is truth and what is good. We seem to have broken into
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 28 2:55 PM
      Hello, Truthdecider and All!

      It seems to be that we are all going around in circles a bit,
      debating what is truth and what is good. We seem to have broken into
      two camps that Truthdecider has aptly labeled Ex-Eckist Critics
      while others, like him, prefer to be Ex-Eckist Apologists. I posted
      recently a portion of Ford Johnson's Introduction to his
      book "Confessions of a God Seeker" where he talked about how much
      truth is good enough. He concluded and stated this underlying theme
      of his book, "good enough is not good enough if it means avoiding
      the truth."

      As an eckankar critic, I do feel that the on-going praise and
      attention to what some apologists call the truths and valuable
      teachings in Eckankar is actually avoiding and delaying the truth. I
      appreciate Truthdecider's story about what he experienced while a
      member of eckankar and that he does value and appreciate it for
      that, but still, I think there will be a final step for him when he
      totally lets go of it. I'm not sure that he is there yet. : )
      Letting go does not mean replacing it with anger either, or that one
      would have to become an eckankar critic such as we are. It just
      means, hey, those experiences came from within the individual--
      Eckankar as the instrument was just a delusion. Truthdecider, I am
      very happy that you have achieved so many personal goals and
      happiness.

      Truthdecider, I think the one thing that bothers you about the posts
      you read here is that we posters no longer obey the law of silence,
      and we don't question the "is it true, is it necessary, is it kind"
      little brainwashing ditty we all learned while in Eckankar. And
      while you and some others can see Eckankar as a positive experience,
      there are many others who did not. In fact, many suffered confusion
      and stress--especially, in regards to those darn fake initiations. I
      remember that you made a statement on Eckankar Truth where you
      criticized others, including me, as making uneducated and judgmental
      comments about certain topics that you judged we were ignorant
      about. Yet, again, in one of your recent posts here, you throw out
      your own opinion that posters here are on some sort of wheel of hate
      and that this is very wrong--it appears that you both accuse others
      of judging, while it is okay for you to judge. I will agree, though,
      that we all can come across as being harsh and judgmental at times!

      You said "that those like myself who will always feel Eckankar was a
      very valuable stepping stone for them are blind and attached
      fools. . ." Just remember that "always" is a long, long time, and
      like I mentioned above, you may eventually let go of this
      attachment. In the meantime, perhaps, a better way to state this is
      that Eckankar was your stepping stone, but not a necessary one for
      everyone or even anyone. It's just where you were when you became
      aware of certain things that you found helpful and valuable. I
      wasn't a member so long and didn't really get so deeply caught up in
      the delusion of the teachings. I can't say, as you do, that I found
      anything of value--in fact, I felt I was held back. I did enjoy
      singing HU, though! I liked that vibration. : )

      You also, stated, "It has long been scientifically proven and
      documented that thoughts and feelings send out electromagnetic waves
      of engery. So the kind of thoughts and feelings and words that we
      give out, do return to us and affect us." This seems to promote the
      Law of Silence that is very well engrained in Eckists, and with it
      comes a veiled threat of speaking out. In other words, it is a fear
      tactic to keep critics quiet!

      I do understand, though, the basic premise of your statement about
      the electromagnetic waves of energy. Positive thoughts are superior
      to negative ones, in my opinion, but as Prometheus points out in his
      post, two negatives do create a positive! So there is need for both
      viewpoints from time to time--it helps maintain balance and positive
      thoughts helps achieve better health and well being. However, it
      should be truthful positive thoughts and not those that come from
      lies and delusion. I also believe that electromagnetic waves that
      are sent out with our thoughts and feelings are a part of our
      intuitive sense. For instance, early on when I first met my husband,
      a long time Eckist, I had this initial thought: it crossed my mind
      that I should lead him out of Eckankar! But then, I said, no, I had
      no right to do that. So, instead, I became a member. Later, when we
      both left, I understood that my Eck experience was just a part of
      his and my true purpose in joining Eckankar was actually to do what
      I had thought in the beginning--to help him leave when the time came
      for him to do so.

      The criticisms of Eckankar and its leadership expressed on this site
      is really our karmic obligagion, to point out the truths which are
      the lies of Eckankar and other cults and scams that come to our
      attention. We are not on a "hate-wheel of criticism for the sake of
      criticism" as you suggest. And I do not regard you as a fool for
      holding on to what you believe were valuable lessons and teachings
      in Eckankar, but I was fooled and I was foolish for falling for its
      trap! Just remember we are all still on our individual journeys as
      Truth Seekers.

      Best regards,
      Mish
    • mishmisha9
      Hi, Truthdecider! You know basically we are both just stating opinions about how we view Eckankar now that we are no longer members of the org., and we do see
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 28 9:26 PM
        Hi, Truthdecider!

        You know basically we are both just stating opinions about how we
        view Eckankar now that we are no longer members of the org., and we
        do see it differently because your experience and mine are vastly
        different, so no wonder we are looking at it from different angles.
        I don't think it is necessary to apologize--I was just pointing out
        to you that criticism also comes from the apologists as well as the
        critics.

        In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
        <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
        > Hey Mish,
        >
        > Thanks for your response. I feel that you may have missed some of
        my points though.
        >
        > Firstly, the main message that I was trying to get across was that
        > both schools of thought are OK, both the critics and the so called
        > apologists. I never said, nor did I mean to say that I thought the
        > critics were wrong. My analogy about the wave in the fish tank, and
        > how thoughts also create waves was used, as I explained in my post,
        > not to show that one should never criticize, only that one should
        be
        > watchful about becoming over-critical, or becoming stuck there. I
        > wasn't trying to imply that I thought anyone here had become stuck
        > there, and I apologize if it came off that way.

        ###What I don't understand is why you said this then if you weren't
        implying that about the posters on this site. The thing is we are
        just expressing a different view of our eckankar experience. I don't
        post on HCS or TS any longer because the concensus of posters on
        those BBs is mostly apologists, so rather than stir up emotions over
        there, I post here! : )


        >
        > Secondly, bear in mind that the whole reason that I wrote that
        post in
        > the first place was because of the judgements and criticisms that I
        > felt were being thrown at the so called ex-eckist apologists by
        some
        > of the posters on this site. So judgements were already being
        thrown
        > at people like me before I posted what I posted. And once again, I
        in
        > no way meant to sound judgmental. And again, I apologize if I
        > inadvertantly came off that way.

        ###These recent posts were in response to a negative post about this
        site on TS. Personally, I don't really care how anyone views their
        eckankar experience or even if they are still members--and I don't
        even mind engaging in a little discussion here about critics vs
        apologists. But this site is for venting and sharing truthful
        negative (mostly) Eckankar experiences, to make others aware and to
        provide a platform for those who want to share in that way.


        >
        > Lastly, in this reply to me, you imply that if I am still in the
        stage
        > that is the so called apologist, that maybe "I'm just not there
        yet".
        > This is still implying that the way of the critic is superior, and
        not
        > that both camps have their equal place, which is what I'm saying.
        And
        > actually, I went through a phase of being an Eck critic, albeit a
        > brief one. Look back on the TS web site, and read some of my posts
        > where I took Eckist posters like Roy Seeber to task, and really
        pulled
        > him over the carpet! But I got past all of that, and no longer feel
        > the need. I am just grateful for what Eckankar did for me now, even
        > though I have moved on from it. So is it not also possible that
        you're
        > just not where I am at yet? : )

        ###We are obviously not in the same place on this. I made that
        comment in response to the being stuck comment--a little touche'
        remark I guess.

        >
        > Best regards to you as well!
        >
        > Truthdecider

        ###I would like to ask you what caused you to drop out of Eckankar-
        what was the reason for you leaving? Also, I hope you won't mind,
        but can you clarify just what it is that Eckankar did for you that
        makes you so grateful? I know you mentioned in another post how life
        had been so tough for you and while in Eckankar things got better--
        but what exactly can you attribute to Eckankar that is exclusive to
        Eckankar and that you couldn't have found elsewhere?

        Prior to my finding Eckankar, I had several experiences that made me
        aware of Divine Spirit--and I wasn't associated with any religion or
        spiritual teaching at the time. It came to me, fortunately I
        recognized it and was grateful, because it gave me strength and
        comfort when I needed it. When I joined Eckankar, I fell for
        believing that these experiences had been gifts from the
        mahanta/klemp. That was really dumb of me, to give eckankar credit
        for that which I had learned/experienced--that Inner knowingness
        unique to me. So, as a critic of the teachings of eckankar, this is
        just an example of how delusional we become when we fall for the
        eckancrap. That is why I don't understand giving credit to the org
        because you have even said that now you realize that it came from
        within that which you learned. It confuses me how you state one
        thing and then you still validate the teachings. I guess that is why
        I don't see you there yet--not necessary to be where I am of course,
        but really past your eckankar experience.

        I hope you don't mind the additional questions, because I think this
        would be more interesting than debating the critics vs apologists
        positions. After all, our common ground is that we are both ex-
        eckists. : )

        Mish


        >
        >
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
        > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
        > > Hello, Truthdecider and All!
        > >
        > > It seems to be that we are all going around in circles a bit,
        > > debating what is truth and what is good. We seem to have broken
        into
        > > two camps that Truthdecider has aptly labeled Ex-Eckist Critics
        > > while others, like him, prefer to be Ex-Eckist Apologists. I
        posted
        > > recently a portion of Ford Johnson's Introduction to his
        > > book "Confessions of a God Seeker" where he talked about how
        much
        > > truth is good enough. He concluded and stated this underlying
        theme
        > > of his book, "good enough is not good enough if it means
        avoiding
        > > the truth."
        > >
        > > As an eckankar critic, I do feel that the on-going praise and
        > > attention to what some apologists call the truths and valuable
        > > teachings in Eckankar is actually avoiding and delaying the
        truth. I
        > > appreciate Truthdecider's story about what he experienced while
        a
        > > member of eckankar and that he does value and appreciate it for
        > > that, but still, I think there will be a final step for him when
        he
        > > totally lets go of it. I'm not sure that he is there yet. : )
        > > Letting go does not mean replacing it with anger either, or that
        one
        > > would have to become an eckankar critic such as we are. It just
        > > means, hey, those experiences came from within the individual--
        > > Eckankar as the instrument was just a delusion. Truthdecider, I
        am
        > > very happy that you have achieved so many personal goals and
        > > happiness.
        > >
        > > Truthdecider, I think the one thing that bothers you about the
        posts
        > > you read here is that we posters no longer obey the law of
        silence,
        > > and we don't question the "is it true, is it necessary, is it
        kind"
        > > little brainwashing ditty we all learned while in Eckankar. And
        > > while you and some others can see Eckankar as a positive
        experience,
        > > there are many others who did not. In fact, many suffered
        confusion
        > > and stress--especially, in regards to those darn fake
        initiations. I
        > > remember that you made a statement on Eckankar Truth where you
        > > criticized others, including me, as making uneducated and
        judgmental
        > > comments about certain topics that you judged we were ignorant
        > > about. Yet, again, in one of your recent posts here, you throw
        out
        > > your own opinion that posters here are on some sort of wheel of
        hate
        > > and that this is very wrong--it appears that you both accuse
        others
        > > of judging, while it is okay for you to judge. I will agree,
        though,
        > > that we all can come across as being harsh and judgmental at
        times!
        > >
        > > You said "that those like myself who will always feel Eckankar
        was a
        > > very valuable stepping stone for them are blind and attached
        > > fools. . ." Just remember that "always" is a long, long time,
        and
        > > like I mentioned above, you may eventually let go of this
        > > attachment. In the meantime, perhaps, a better way to state this
        is
        > > that Eckankar was your stepping stone, but not a necessary one
        for
        > > everyone or even anyone. It's just where you were when you
        became
        > > aware of certain things that you found helpful and valuable. I
        > > wasn't a member so long and didn't really get so deeply caught
        up in
        > > the delusion of the teachings. I can't say, as you do, that I
        found
        > > anything of value--in fact, I felt I was held back. I did enjoy
        > > singing HU, though! I liked that vibration. : )
        > >
        > > You also, stated, "It has long been scientifically proven and
        > > documented that thoughts and feelings send out electromagnetic
        waves
        > > of engery. So the kind of thoughts and feelings and words that
        we
        > > give out, do return to us and affect us." This seems to promote
        the
        > > Law of Silence that is very well engrained in Eckists, and with
        it
        > > comes a veiled threat of speaking out. In other words, it is a
        fear
        > > tactic to keep critics quiet!
        > >
        > > I do understand, though, the basic premise of your statement
        about
        > > the electromagnetic waves of energy. Positive thoughts are
        superior
        > > to negative ones, in my opinion, but as Prometheus points out in
        his
        > > post, two negatives do create a positive! So there is need for
        both
        > > viewpoints from time to time--it helps maintain balance and
        positive
        > > thoughts helps achieve better health and well being. However, it
        > > should be truthful positive thoughts and not those that come
        from
        > > lies and delusion. I also believe that electromagnetic waves
        that
        > > are sent out with our thoughts and feelings are a part of our
        > > intuitive sense. For instance, early on when I first met my
        husband,
        > > a long time Eckist, I had this initial thought: it crossed my
        mind
        > > that I should lead him out of Eckankar! But then, I said, no, I
        had
        > > no right to do that. So, instead, I became a member. Later, when
        we
        > > both left, I understood that my Eck experience was just a part
        of
        > > his and my true purpose in joining Eckankar was actually to do
        what
        > > I had thought in the beginning--to help him leave when the time
        came
        > > for him to do so.
        > >
        > > The criticisms of Eckankar and its leadership expressed on this
        site
        > > is really our karmic obligagion, to point out the truths which
        are
        > > the lies of Eckankar and other cults and scams that come to our
        > > attention. We are not on a "hate-wheel of criticism for the sake
        of
        > > criticism" as you suggest. And I do not regard you as a fool for
        > > holding on to what you believe were valuable lessons and
        teachings
        > > in Eckankar, but I was fooled and I was foolish for falling for
        its
        > > trap! Just remember we are all still on our individual journeys
        as
        > > Truth Seekers.
        > >
        > > Best regards,
        > > Mish
      • ctecvie
        Hello Truthdecider, ... It s no shame to have an opinion and to account for it, Truthdecider. Sometimes it s very difficult to let another opinion be,
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 29 2:18 AM
          Hello Truthdecider,

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
          <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
          > Hey Mish,
          >
          > Thanks for your response. I feel that you may have missed some of my
          > points though.
          >
          > Firstly, the main message that I was trying to get across was that
          > both schools of thought are OK, both the critics and the so called
          > apologists. I never said, nor did I mean to say that I thought the
          > critics were wrong.

          It's no shame to have an opinion and to account for it, Truthdecider.
          Sometimes it's very difficult to let another opinion be, especially
          if we feel very strongly about the issue. Sometimes we are ashamed
          about that, but it's human. I am certainly closer to Mish's point of
          you than to yours and I'm sure it shows in what I write! :-)

          > Secondly, bear in mind that the whole reason that I wrote that post
          >in
          > the first place was because of the judgements and criticisms that I
          > felt were being thrown at the so called ex-eckist apologists by some
          > of the posters on this site. So judgements were already being thrown
          > at people like me before I posted what I posted. And once again, I
          >in
          > no way meant to sound judgmental. And again, I apologize if I
          > inadvertantly came off that way.

          I'm glad about that you posted what you posted here, Truthdecider,
          and, well - you had a different statement from ours to make, and that
          is ok. And bear in mind the purpose of this site here - to vent and
          criticize. I just don't like the apologies about Eckankar (and I'm
          sure you know that by now ;-)) ), but I understand much better now
          where you come from after you have explained why Eckankar was so
          important to you.

          > Lastly, in this reply to me, you imply that if I am still in the
          >stage
          > that is the so called apologist, that maybe "I'm just not there
          >yet".
          > This is still implying that the way of the critic is superior, and
          >not
          > that both camps have their equal place, which is what I'm saying.

          Lastly, feel free to have an opinion that doesn't please everybody,
          Truthdecider, and don't apologize for it!

          Ingrid
        • mishmisha9
          Thanks, Truthdecider! I do have one more question after reading your post. Do you feel like you fully understand your experiences in Eckankar and have
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 1, 2005
            Thanks, Truthdecider!

            I do have one more question after reading your post. Do you feel
            like you fully understand your experiences in Eckankar and have
            transcended beyond them now? Or are you still working on that?

            For me, I wasn't in Eckankar for as long a time, as you, so I didn't
            have as much invested beyond some time attending eck functions,
            giving them money and reading all of Harold's boring books. I have
            no attachment to Harold, and I didn't get around to reading Paul's
            books beyond "Stranger by the River." I don't feel the need to look
            for anything positive to attribute to Eckankar or any fake master
            therein named. My positive experience in regards to my eck
            experience is that I am free from it, I learned about religious
            scams and cults, and hopefully this knowledge will keep me from
            falling for another. I think one in a lifetime is enough for me! So
            you see this is my positive! : ) Also, posting here is my way of
            contributing what I have learned so others might be helped to learn
            the truth or maybe even relate in a similar way. I think it is fine
            that you want to view Eckankar as you do. It is what you are
            comfortable with. I am comfortable with this right now myself. As to
            the future, who knows how either you or I will view this--as you say
            it is all evolving. Our journeys continue. . .

            I would like to suggest that you have a very strong survivor
            personality. True survivors deal with their hardshps by appreciating
            what they learned while going through difficult times. They thrive
            in realizing that they overcame the obstacles that had made their
            life so difficult. They don't whine or live in the past--beyond
            appreciating what they learned and recognizing the personal growth
            that they themselves accomplished. They are happy and enjoy life--
            and can even laugh sometimes at what they went through. They
            recognize that life is how you deal with it!

            I recommend a book called the Survivor Personality by Al Siebert
            that you might be interested in reading. It's on the link page here.
            He also has a very nice website.

            Thanks, for answering my questions!

            Mish



            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
            <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
            > Hey Mish,
            >
            > I will answer the questions that you posted to me.
            >
            > I stepped away from Eckankar because I found that I had outgrown
            it.
            > Several months before I read Ford's book, I had a dream, a very
            > powerful dream where I was with an Eck master. Then later in the
            > dream, I became that Eck master, and realized that I had been him
            all
            > along. (I described this dream in detail in a post on the TS web
            site
            > some time ago.) There were many events that happened that led up to
            > this dream, some of which were outer observations of
            inconsistencies
            > in the outer path, and some were other inner experiences that were
            > pointing more towards the reality of my own higher being.
            >
            > After reading Ford's book, all of the pieces began to fall into
            place,
            > and after some emotional agonizing over the decision (which you
            > witnessed with me through my posts on the HCS web site), I made the
            > final decision to step away from the Eckankar teachings.
            >
            > However, none of this takes away from what Eckankar did for me
            when I
            > was not as spiritually mature or aware. I explained these
            experiences
            > in post number 419 on this site entitled "Response To Ingrid and
            Liz".
            >
            > There is a great story told in many different ways, and in many
            > different cultures folklore that also illustrates what I am trying
            to
            > explain about this. This is one example that I found in the Korean
            > culture that basically goes like this:
            >
            > There was a small boy who was nearly afraid of everything. He was
            > often beat up by his classmates, and had almost no self-confidence.
            > However, his Grandfather, now deceased, had been a very famous and
            > powerful General in the Korean Army.
            >
            > One day, his Grandmother, who had been the General's wife, took her
            > Grandson aside, and gave him a small Lion's head made of
            silver. "This
            > Lion's head is magic." She told her Grandson. "Your Grandfather
            always
            > carried this with him, and it was this that gave him all of his
            > courage and power." The boy took it with awe, and from then on,
            always
            > kept it with him.
            >
            > The boy believed in this charm so much, that he no longer was
            afraid
            > of anything. Nor did he let the other kids pick on him anymore. He
            > gained self-confidence, and began to excel at everything that he
            did.
            > In time, as he grew older, he also became a great military leader
            and
            > hero like his grandfather.
            >
            > One day, after her Grandson had become so successful, his
            Grandmother
            > sat him down, and told him the truth about the Lion's head. "That
            > thing was only an ornament that I took off of an old cane that
            someone
            > had thrown away. Your Grandfather never even saw it, much less ever
            > carried it with him. It had no power, but you believed in it, so it
            > worked. Actually, everything that you were able to do was because
            of
            > the power inside you!"
            >
            > Her Grandson became an even more powerful leader after hearing
            this,
            > for he now realized that he had done everything with his own power
            all
            > along.
            >
            > Sometimes people need a crutch until they are strong enough to
            realize
            > that everything lies within them only. Only then, can they throw
            the
            > crutch away, and walk strongly on their own. This is what I was
            trying
            > to get across in my "Response To Ingrid and Liz" post that I
            mentioned
            > earlier.
            >
            > Of course, the key here is not just setting up the temporary belief
            > systems that act as a crutch, it's also in knowing when to take the
            > crutch away, and let the person know how strong that THEY really
            are
            > spiritually.
            >
            > I have heard several stories over the years where, at a certain
            point,
            > Paul Twitchell may have taken people's crutches away. I remember
            Patti
            > Simpson's story in her book, where she tells of the time that she
            and
            > Paul were walking on the beach together, and he told her that he
            had
            > made up the whole Eckankar thing. This was supposedly a
            breakthrough
            > point for Patti into her own Mastership, and realizing her own
            divinity.
            >
            > I also remember hearing a recording of a Radio interview with the
            now
            > infamous Tom Flamma. Darwin was the LEM at the time of the
            interview.
            > The MC asked Tom "Is Darwin your master?" To which Tom
            replied, "No, I
            > am my own master. I was set free by Paul Twitchell in 19__" (I
            don't
            > recall the date that Tom gave).
            >
            > By "set free", could Tom have meant that Paul had revealed the
            truth
            > about Eckankar to him?
            >
            > However, the problem with current day Eckankar seems to be that the
            > Chelas need to completely discover this on their own, with what
            > appears to be much resistance from the outer organizational
            structure.
            > Also, as Liz pointed out in her post, this idea of creating a
            powerful
            > myth for people to believe in (even if it is intended only as a
            > temporary spiritual crutch) doesn't seem to work for everyone, and
            > seems to have led some people away from more traditional forms of
            help
            > that may have been much more beneficial to them. This is certainly
            a
            > point worth considering.
            >
            > On a different point about all of this, I believe very strongly
            that
            > everything that we experience in life is a reflection of our own
            state
            > of consciousness. I experience this on a daily basis, and have
            > absolutely no doubt about this reality. And this is certainly not
            just
            > something that is taught in Eckankar. This is the basis of most
            truly
            > grounded spiritual teachings, such as the Shamanistic traditions,
            the
            > Buddhist traditions, etc. So even if it appears that someone hits
            me
            > with their car, or I am born into an abusive household (which I
            was),
            > or I join a spiritual path that turns out to have a lot of
            deceptions
            > and untruths in it that are mixed with some truths, this is all
            still
            > my hologram! It is my universe that I created to learn from, and my
            > mental projection. All of it! I can't disown certain parts of it,
            > because all of it's mine, and I need to realize that I own all of
            it
            > if I am ever to fully understand and transcend it.
            >
            > Now granted, as Elizabeth Kubler-Ross so wisely points out, most
            of us
            > go through 5 distinct stages of grieving when we experience any
            kind
            > of big loss or hurt. One of the earlier stages is allowing the
            anger
            > and the pain to have their beingness. I can remember punching a
            heavy
            > bag, sometimes for an hour or more a day, for several weeks when I
            > finally was facing the anger that I felt towards my abusive
            childhood.
            > But as even most Therapists will tell you, the real healing of the
            > pain and damage from these kinds of experiences commences when you
            get
            > to the point where you can not only forgive your abusers or
            deceivers,
            > but when you can begin to see the experience in a positive light,
            and
            > actually see how the whole experience helped you develop certain
            > positive qualities that you may not have otherwise developed.
            >
            > Please understand that I am in no way trying to preach, or suggest
            > that anyone here needs to change what they are doing, or how they
            are
            > expressing themselves. I am only trying to point out that there are
            > many sides to how these kinds of things are looked at and dealt
            with,
            > and that it's important for all of us not to become stuck on the
            idea
            > that there is only one right way to deal with these kinds of
            experiences.
            >
            > Truthdecider
            >
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
            > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
            > > Hi, Truthdecider!
            > >
            > > You know basically we are both just stating opinions about how
            we
            > > view Eckankar now that we are no longer members of the org., and
            we
            > > do see it differently because your experience and mine are
            vastly
            > > different, so no wonder we are looking at it from different
            angles.
            > > I don't think it is necessary to apologize--I was just pointing
            out
            > > to you that criticism also comes from the apologists as well as
            the
            > > critics.
            > >
            > > In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
            > > <truthdecider@y...> wrote:
            > > > Hey Mish,
            > > >
            > > > Thanks for your response. I feel that you may have missed some
            of
            > > my points though.
            > > >
            > > > Firstly, the main message that I was trying to get across was
            that
            > > > both schools of thought are OK, both the critics and the so
            called
            > > > apologists. I never said, nor did I mean to say that I thought
            the
            > > > critics were wrong. My analogy about the wave in the fish
            tank, and
            > > > how thoughts also create waves was used, as I explained in my
            post,
            > > > not to show that one should never criticize, only that one
            should
            > > be
            > > > watchful about becoming over-critical, or becoming stuck
            there. I
            > > > wasn't trying to imply that I thought anyone here had become
            stuck
            > > > there, and I apologize if it came off that way.
            > >
            > > ###What I don't understand is why you said this then if you
            weren't
            > > implying that about the posters on this site. The thing is we
            are
            > > just expressing a different view of our eckankar experience. I
            don't
            > > post on HCS or TS any longer because the concensus of posters on
            > > those BBs is mostly apologists, so rather than stir up emotions
            over
            > > there, I post here! : )
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Secondly, bear in mind that the whole reason that I wrote that
            > > post in
            > > > the first place was because of the judgements and criticisms
            that I
            > > > felt were being thrown at the so called ex-eckist apologists
            by
            > > some
            > > > of the posters on this site. So judgements were already being
            > > thrown
            > > > at people like me before I posted what I posted. And once
            again, I
            > > in
            > > > no way meant to sound judgmental. And again, I apologize if I
            > > > inadvertantly came off that way.
            > >
            > > ###These recent posts were in response to a negative post about
            this
            > > site on TS. Personally, I don't really care how anyone views
            their
            > > eckankar experience or even if they are still members--and I
            don't
            > > even mind engaging in a little discussion here about critics vs
            > > apologists. But this site is for venting and sharing truthful
            > > negative (mostly) Eckankar experiences, to make others aware and
            to
            > > provide a platform for those who want to share in that way.
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Lastly, in this reply to me, you imply that if I am still in
            the
            > > stage
            > > > that is the so called apologist, that maybe "I'm just not
            there
            > > yet".
            > > > This is still implying that the way of the critic is superior,
            and
            > > not
            > > > that both camps have their equal place, which is what I'm
            saying.
            > > And
            > > > actually, I went through a phase of being an Eck critic,
            albeit a
            > > > brief one. Look back on the TS web site, and read some of my
            posts
            > > > where I took Eckist posters like Roy Seeber to task, and
            really
            > > pulled
            > > > him over the carpet! But I got past all of that, and no longer
            feel
            > > > the need. I am just grateful for what Eckankar did for me now,
            even
            > > > though I have moved on from it. So is it not also possible
            that
            > > you're
            > > > just not where I am at yet? : )
            > >
            > > ###We are obviously not in the same place on this. I made that
            > > comment in response to the being stuck comment--a little touche'
            > > remark I guess.
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Best regards to you as well!
            > > >
            > > > Truthdecider
            > >
            > > ###I would like to ask you what caused you to drop out of
            Eckankar-
            > > what was the reason for you leaving? Also, I hope you won't
            mind,
            > > but can you clarify just what it is that Eckankar did for you
            that
            > > makes you so grateful? I know you mentioned in another post how
            life
            > > had been so tough for you and while in Eckankar things got
            better--
            > > but what exactly can you attribute to Eckankar that is exclusive
            to
            > > Eckankar and that you couldn't have found elsewhere?
            > >
            > > Prior to my finding Eckankar, I had several experiences that
            made me
            > > aware of Divine Spirit--and I wasn't associated with any
            religion or
            > > spiritual teaching at the time. It came to me, fortunately I
            > > recognized it and was grateful, because it gave me strength and
            > > comfort when I needed it. When I joined Eckankar, I fell for
            > > believing that these experiences had been gifts from the
            > > mahanta/klemp. That was really dumb of me, to give eckankar
            credit
            > > for that which I had learned/experienced--that Inner knowingness
            > > unique to me. So, as a critic of the teachings of eckankar, this
            is
            > > just an example of how delusional we become when we fall for the
            > > eckancrap. That is why I don't understand giving credit to the
            org
            > > because you have even said that now you realize that it came
            from
            > > within that which you learned. It confuses me how you state one
            > > thing and then you still validate the teachings. I guess that is
            why
            > > I don't see you there yet--not necessary to be where I am of
            course,
            > > but really past your eckankar experience.
            > >
            > > I hope you don't mind the additional questions, because I think
            this
            > > would be more interesting than debating the critics vs
            apologists
            > > positions. After all, our common ground is that we are both ex-
            > > eckists. : )
            > >
            > > Mish
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In
            EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
            > > > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
            > > > > Hello, Truthdecider and All!
            > > > >
            > > > > It seems to be that we are all going around in circles a
            bit,
            > > > > debating what is truth and what is good. We seem to have
            broken
            > > into
            > > > > two camps that Truthdecider has aptly labeled Ex-Eckist
            Critics
            > > > > while others, like him, prefer to be Ex-Eckist Apologists. I
            > > posted
            > > > > recently a portion of Ford Johnson's Introduction to his
            > > > > book "Confessions of a God Seeker" where he talked about how
            > > much
            > > > > truth is good enough. He concluded and stated this
            underlying
            > > theme
            > > > > of his book, "good enough is not good enough if it means
            > > avoiding
            > > > > the truth."
            > > > >
            > > > > As an eckankar critic, I do feel that the on-going praise
            and
            > > > > attention to what some apologists call the truths and
            valuable
            > > > > teachings in Eckankar is actually avoiding and delaying the
            > > truth. I
            > > > > appreciate Truthdecider's story about what he experienced
            while
            > > a
            > > > > member of eckankar and that he does value and appreciate it
            for
            > > > > that, but still, I think there will be a final step for him
            when
            > > he
            > > > > totally lets go of it. I'm not sure that he is there
            yet. : )
            > > > > Letting go does not mean replacing it with anger either, or
            that
            > > one
            > > > > would have to become an eckankar critic such as we are. It
            just
            > > > > means, hey, those experiences came from within the
            individual--
            > > > > Eckankar as the instrument was just a delusion.
            Truthdecider, I
            > > am
            > > > > very happy that you have achieved so many personal goals and
            > > > > happiness.
            > > > >
            > > > > Truthdecider, I think the one thing that bothers you about
            the
            > > posts
            > > > > you read here is that we posters no longer obey the law of
            > > silence,
            > > > > and we don't question the "is it true, is it necessary, is
            it
            > > kind"
            > > > > little brainwashing ditty we all learned while in Eckankar.
            And
            > > > > while you and some others can see Eckankar as a positive
            > > experience,
            > > > > there are many others who did not. In fact, many suffered
            > > confusion
            > > > > and stress--especially, in regards to those darn fake
            > > initiations. I
            > > > > remember that you made a statement on Eckankar Truth where
            you
            > > > > criticized others, including me, as making uneducated and
            > > judgmental
            > > > > comments about certain topics that you judged we were
            ignorant
            > > > > about. Yet, again, in one of your recent posts here, you
            throw
            > > out
            > > > > your own opinion that posters here are on some sort of wheel
            of
            > > hate
            > > > > and that this is very wrong--it appears that you both accuse
            > > others
            > > > > of judging, while it is okay for you to judge. I will agree,
            > > though,
            > > > > that we all can come across as being harsh and judgmental at
            > > times!
            > > > >
            > > > > You said "that those like myself who will always feel
            Eckankar
            > > was a
            > > > > very valuable stepping stone for them are blind and attached
            > > > > fools. . ." Just remember that "always" is a long, long
            time,
            > > and
            > > > > like I mentioned above, you may eventually let go of this
            > > > > attachment. In the meantime, perhaps, a better way to state
            this
            > > is
            > > > > that Eckankar was your stepping stone, but not a necessary
            one
            > > for
            > > > > everyone or even anyone. It's just where you were when you
            > > became
            > > > > aware of certain things that you found helpful and valuable.
            I
            > > > > wasn't a member so long and didn't really get so deeply
            caught
            > > up in
            > > > > the delusion of the teachings. I can't say, as you do, that
            I
            > > found
            > > > > anything of value--in fact, I felt I was held back. I did
            enjoy
            > > > > singing HU, though! I liked that vibration. : )
            > > > >
            > > > > You also, stated, "It has long been scientifically proven
            and
            > > > > documented that thoughts and feelings send out
            electromagnetic
            > > waves
            > > > > of engery. So the kind of thoughts and feelings and words
            that
            > > we
            > > > > give out, do return to us and affect us." This seems to
            promote
            > > the
            > > > > Law of Silence that is very well engrained in Eckists, and
            with
            > > it
            > > > > comes a veiled threat of speaking out. In other words, it is
            a
            > > fear
            > > > > tactic to keep critics quiet!
            > > > >
            > > > > I do understand, though, the basic premise of your statement
            > > about
            > > > > the electromagnetic waves of energy. Positive thoughts are
            > > superior
            > > > > to negative ones, in my opinion, but as Prometheus points
            out in
            > > his
            > > > > post, two negatives do create a positive! So there is need
            for
            > > both
            > > > > viewpoints from time to time--it helps maintain balance and
            > > positive
            > > > > thoughts helps achieve better health and well being.
            However, it
            > > > > should be truthful positive thoughts and not those that come
            > > from
            > > > > lies and delusion. I also believe that electromagnetic waves
            > > that
            > > > > are sent out with our thoughts and feelings are a part of
            our
            > > > > intuitive sense. For instance, early on when I first met my
            > > husband,
            > > > > a long time Eckist, I had this initial thought: it crossed
            my
            > > mind
            > > > > that I should lead him out of Eckankar! But then, I said,
            no, I
            > > had
            > > > > no right to do that. So, instead, I became a member. Later,
            when
            > > we
            > > > > both left, I understood that my Eck experience was just a
            part
            > > of
            > > > > his and my true purpose in joining Eckankar was actually to
            do
            > > what
            > > > > I had thought in the beginning--to help him leave when the
            time
            > > came
            > > > > for him to do so.
            > > > >
            > > > > The criticisms of Eckankar and its leadership expressed on
            this
            > > site
            > > > > is really our karmic obligagion, to point out the truths
            which
            > > are
            > > > > the lies of Eckankar and other cults and scams that come to
            our
            > > > > attention. We are not on a "hate-wheel of criticism for the
            sake
            > > of
            > > > > criticism" as you suggest. And I do not regard you as a fool
            for
            > > > > holding on to what you believe were valuable lessons and
            > > teachings
            > > > > in Eckankar, but I was fooled and I was foolish for falling
            for
            > > its
            > > > > trap! Just remember we are all still on our individual
            journeys
            > > as
            > > > > Truth Seekers.
            > > > >
            > > > > Best regards,
            > > > > Mish
          • Freefrom
            Truthdecider, I m sure you may mean well, but the Katrina disasters of the world may not agree. Bad things sometimes happen to good people. I sometimes refer
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 2, 2005
              Truthdecider,

              I'm sure you may mean well, but the Katrina disasters of the world may
              not agree. Bad things sometimes happen to good people. I sometimes
              refer to the "I created and create all of my existence to every tiny
              detail as a reflection of my own consciousness" as New Age Guilt. The
              old Karma thing of ultimate and absolute responsibility for
              everything. This is also a good path towards self-hate and the old
              manic/depressive cycle so often seen in people making such grandiose
              propositions. I am not preaching, just conveying my experience.

              I have also seen Elizabeth Kubler-Ross in a lecture and she was a
              pretty fiesty outspoken person. She was not just an all accepting
              personality and if she had a beef with someone about something, she
              could very well let them have it without holding back, even as an old
              lady who had recovered from a serious stroke.

              My understanding of the grieving stages is that they are not
              necessarily sequential or linear. It is an organic process. Denial is
              always there and anger and sadness and all the rest. The point is
              accepting whatever comes up and working with it and through it IMO. In
              shamanistic terms there is a sense of accepting what is appropriate,
              what is for that moment. And then the Buddhists have their way of
              dealing with life, compasion and open awareness. I'm no expert, but
              this is my take on it. Denial is really a difficult one. I personally
              don't think that Paul Twitch intended his New Age religion to be a
              training ground for self-made masters of their own fate, once they
              realized the whole thing was just a sham, IMO.

              Best

              Freefrom

              P.S. resisting feelings is a really hard thing to do, yet that is what
              eckiekar taught us to do. Har, Har. Sorry I suddenly felt silly.


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "truthdecider"
              <truthdecider@y...> wrote:

              snip
              On a different point about all of this, I believe very strongly that
              everything that we experience in life is a reflection of our own state
              of consciousness. I experience this on a daily basis, and have
              absolutely no doubt about this reality. And this is certainly not just
              something that is taught in Eckankar. This is the basis of most truly
              grounded spiritual teachings, such as the Shamanistic traditions, the
              Buddhist traditions, etc. So even if it appears that someone hits me
              with their car, or I am born into an abusive household (which I was),
              or I join a spiritual path that turns out to have a lot of deceptions
              and untruths in it that are mixed with some truths, this is all still
              my hologram! It is my universe that I created to learn from, and my
              mental projection. All of it! I can't disown certain parts of it,
              because all of it's mine, and I need to realize that I own all of it
              if I am ever to fully understand and transcend it.

              Now granted, as Elizabeth Kubler-Ross so wisely points out, most of us
              go through 5 distinct stages of grieving when we experience any kind
              of big loss or hurt. One of the earlier stages is allowing the anger
              and the pain to have their beingness. I can remember punching a heavy
              bag, sometimes for an hour or more a day, for several weeks when I
              finally was facing the anger that I felt towards my abusive childhood.
              But as even most Therapists will tell you, the real healing of the
              pain and damage from these kinds of experiences commences when you get
              to the point where you can not only forgive your abusers or deceivers,
              but when you can begin to see the experience in a positive light, and
              actually see how the whole experience helped you develop certain
              positive qualities that you may not have otherwise developed.
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