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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?

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  • Ma-li
    Liska,   I totally agree with what you stated in your last paragraph.  Would that I had known that years aog, it might have saved me a lot of problems. 
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
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      Liska,
       
      I totally agree with what you stated in your last paragraph.  Would that I had known that years aog, it might have saved me a lot of problems.  However, then I would not have learned all the truths I did find thru Eckankar, and for that I'm eternally grateful.  I'm right where I'm supposed to be, in the perfect place and in the perfect moment.
       
      Namaste,
       
      Ma-li

      --- On Sat, 12/6/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
      From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 11:52 AM

      Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said
      below...

      "I agree that a lot can be learned from
      others, while at the same time I suspect
      there is a not so well noticed connection
      between how people search and what they
      actually find.

      What I mean to say is that I believe one's
      paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
      happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
      replaced by another. A better one. Because
      the former seems to become old and like all
      the juice squeezed out of the lemon."

      Due to the temporary nature of this world and everything in it, all
      things have their place and value in time. As individual consciousness
      evolves, old concepts no longer fit and the Soul moves on to newer and
      greater horizons. It's what we all did when we rejected the idea of an
      infallible master. I myself, realized that there is only God - Soul
      and nothing in-between. Anyone who declares themselves an intermediary
      between God and Soul is a fraud.

      Regards
      Liska

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, etznab@... wrote:
      >
      >
      > "My primary goal is personal experience,
      > but reading other people's works helps focus
      > my attention on something greater than day
      > to day mundane existence."
      >
      > I agree that a lot can be learned from
      > others, while at the same time I suspect
      > there is a not so well noticed connection
      > between how people search and what they
      > actually find.
      >
      > What I mean to say is that I believe one's
      > paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
      > happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
      > replaced by another. A better one. Because
      > the former seems to become old and like all
      > the juice squeezed out of the lemon.
      >
      > Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
      > seem to leave the same old, same old over
      > and over like a broken record.
      >
      > This is one of the traps I have found myself
      > in time and time again. By limiting myself to
      > only certain specific paradigms, listening and
      > reading only certain specific authors and then
      > thinking along only certain specific lines.
      >
      > I like to meet a variety of different people &
      > hear about a variety of different experiences.
      > In fact, I think if one would consider how many
      > different people there are in the world, and that
      > much potential for experience were available to
      > them, it might not sound too impossible how
      > one part of the "universe" could answer another
      > part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
      > ships.
      >
      > Etznab
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: drubezarn
      > e <drubezarne@ ...>
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
      > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
      >
      >
      >
      > Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about
      >
      > Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as
      >
      > intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning
      >
      > your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.
      >
      >
      >
      > When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere
      >
      > in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden
      >
      > thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the
      >
      > limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to
      >
      > imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem
      >
      > honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or
      >
      > boost their egos.
      >
      >
      >
      > I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For
      >
      > example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in
      >
      > meditation/contempl ation. On the inner planes, thinking and
      >
      > visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when
      >
      > assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because
      >
      > they are no longer necessary.
      >
      >
      >
      > The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance
      >
      > state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the
      >
      > body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
      > wareness. However,
      >
      > I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to
      >
      > place my attention on the formless.
      >
      >
      >
      > Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of
      >
      > the best explanations for our existence.
      >
      >
      >
      > By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books
      >
      > and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's
      >
      > books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book
      >
      > motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.
      >
      >
      >
      > My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's
      >
      > works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day
      >
      > mundane existence.
      >
      >
      >
      > I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to
      >
      > learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is
      >
      > there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role
      >
      > is to practice and develop my own style of playing.
      >
      >
      >
      > All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I
      >
      > don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all
      >
      > spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I
      >
      > don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking
      >
      > Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the
      >
      > extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore
      >
      > and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for
      >
      > one reason or another."
      >
      >
      >
      > Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select
      >
      > individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke
      >
      > up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think
      >
      > selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.
      >
      >
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > Liska
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "prometheus_ 973"
      >
      > prometheus_973@ wrote:
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; Hello Ma-li,
      >
      > &gt; I thought I'd respond as well. For one
      >
      > &gt; thing I can't recommend anything to
      >
      > &gt; read, but I find many of the resources
      >
      > &gt; listed on this site to be interesting.
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; As far as believing these and other sources
      >
      > &gt; of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
      >
      > &gt; and everything by the so called "experts." I
      >
      > &gt; definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
      >
      > &gt; seems to be selling something for one reason
      >
      > &gt; or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
      >
      > &gt; subjective, and is found within by each Soul.
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; Ma-li wrote:
      >
      > &gt; [snip]
      >
      > &gt; "Would anyone like to share with me how you
      >
      > &gt; handled it when you decided to leave, and
      >
      > &gt; especially what did you do about the spiritual
      >
      > &gt; exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
      >
      > &gt
      > ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in
      >
      > &gt; writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
      >
      > &gt; left but God?"
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
      >
      > &gt; many things in ECKankar just didn't make
      >
      > &gt; sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
      >
      > &gt; it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
      >
      > &gt; and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
      >
      > &gt; every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
      >
      > &gt; opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
      >
      > &gt; one dimensional stories didn't help either.
      >
      > &gt; I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
      >
      > &gt; my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
      >
      > &gt; believable to others.
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; However, I've always known and had proof of
      >
      > &gt; Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
      >
      > &gt; I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
      >
      > &gt; of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
      >
      > &gt; and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
      >
      > &gt; amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
      >
      > &gt; or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
      >
      > &gt; long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
      >
      > &gt; because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
      >
      > &gt; in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
      >
      > &gt; HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
      >
      > &gt; can experience a
      > Oneness with All There Is and a
      >
      > &gt; Contentment that I could never achieve while under
      >
      > &gt; the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
      >
      > &gt; up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
      >
      > &gt; new is it?
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
      >
      > &gt; beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
      >
      > &gt; the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
      >
      > &gt; the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
      >
      > &gt; warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
      >
      > &gt; IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
      >
      > &gt; the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
      >
      > &gt; IT IS ME, and I AM IT."
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
      >
      > &gt; and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
      >
      > &gt; observing Nature is very contemplative and
      >
      > &gt; peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
      >
      > &gt; The past tunes take one back to one's youth
      >
      > &gt; and beyond and into other times as does reading
      >
      > &gt; about or watching history on TV. It's good to
      >
      > &gt; know about how we became who we are and
      >
      > &gt; what we think we are in order to know more
      >
      > &gt; about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; "All this being said, I don't know what to do
      >
      > &gt; about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
      > s
      >
      > &gt; from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
      >
      > &gt; and need to make a choice about what to do next.
      >
      > &gt; If someone would care to share their experiences
      >
      > &gt; and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
      >
      > &gt; can use my private email if you'd prefer."
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
      >
      > &gt; Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
      >
      > &gt; buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
      >
      > &gt; because of friends and/or the promise of God-
      >
      > &gt; Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
      >
      > &gt; giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
      >
      > &gt; I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
      >
      > &gt; give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
      >
      > &gt; after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
      >
      > &gt; I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
      >
      > &gt; and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
      >
      > &gt; many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
      >
      > &gt; a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
      >
      > &gt; me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
      >
      > &gt; reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
      >
      > &gt; same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; [snip]
      >
      > &gt; Ma-li (also) wrote:
      >
      > &gt; "...Then the doubts
      > and mental processes begin
      >
      > &gt; working until he's got himself almost convinced
      >
      > &gt; he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
      >
      > &gt; to go back and change answers because he also
      >
      > &gt; feels he did the best he could.
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; What does he do to fill the empty space?"
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
      >
      > &gt; (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
      >
      > &gt; it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
      >
      > &gt; Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
      >
      > &gt; middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
      >
      > &gt; Masters in the making.
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; When one follows another they give up their ability
      >
      > &gt; to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
      >
      > &gt; give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
      >
      > &gt; a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
      >
      > &gt; Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
      >
      > &gt; Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
      >
      > &gt; No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.
      >
      > &gt;
      >
      > &gt; Prometheus
      >
      > &gt;
      >


    • Ma-li
      Thank you, Mish, and I will take time to just enjoy the empty spaces.  I have a feeling they won t be around much longer. lol  Haven t read the books you
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
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        Thank you, Mish, and I will take time to just enjoy the empty spaces.  I have a feeling they won't be around much longer. lol  Haven't read the books you recommend, but will find them one day soon.
         
        Re: tests in college....those were the days.lol  I did just what you did....left the others to sit and stew while I was out enjoying what the day had to offer.  Funny how the faster I did a test the better score I received.
         
        Namaste
         
        Ma-li

        --- On Fri, 12/5/08, mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
        From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 8:16 AM

        Hello Ma-li!

        I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces,
        what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in
        one hour, reminded me of my college days! Actually, I
        remember a few occasions when taking an exam that I
        did actually finish quite early . . . and I remember some
        self-doubts about why I finished it so quickly while others
        were still laboring over the exam. What did I do?? I turned
        the exam in and left the room! And then I did sort of a
        happy dance outside, glad to be free of that exam room . . .
        and how did I do? Well, I did quite well, because I had
        aced those exams, and I was free to go on to the next
        thing . . . and being a college student, I remember heading
        to the beach with some friends for one time and having so
        much fun. Can't quite remember on the other occasions, but
        if it was just before school break, I probably got an early
        start for home! So I guess my message is to trust yourself! : )

        Empty spaces are a luxury really, but they often come at a
        hard time, so there can be the feeling of loss . . . and we
        want to quickly fill it up again with something else. I think
        it is good to just take one's time and find things that are of
        interest. I remember one time in my life when I had to sort
        of re-invent myself. Every morning I'd ask myself what it
        was that I wanted and needed to do with my life to make
        myself happy. Happiness is so essential--it is not selfish to
        want to seek this IMO. My goals had to be reasonable and
        attainable goals--that was one stipulation I placed on myself.
        I finally defined what it was I wanted and wanted to do and
        then I looked for the ways to accomplish it all, one by one.

        I guess what I'm saying you have to ask yourself what it is
        you need and then find the ways to have it. But take your
        time and enjoy the freedom of those empty spaces because
        they allow you freedom for introspection which is needed to
        take the next steps--all by your own choices and decisions!

        Good luck! And I'd like to offer a couple of books for reading
        as well. One member of our site who left eckankar after 30
        years found Jed McKenna's book "Spiritual Enlightenment, the
        Damnest Thing" to greatly help her to handle the void. She
        still says it is the best book! I also like Sam Harris' book "The
        End of Faith", and also enjoyed Bill Moyers TV series on "On Faith
        and Reason" to be quite valuable. You can google for the Bill
        Moyers series to find and read the transcripts.

        Mish

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Non ekster et al,
        >  
        > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm living in the Now all
        the time. However, on another level, I think/feel that I should be doing/being something
        more than just being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the student who
        finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for the other 2 hours...just sit there
        quietly, leave the room, or go back over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it
        doesn't feel right that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
        working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up the test, but he
        doesn't want to go back and change answers because he also feels he did the best he
        could.  What does he do to fill the empty space?
        >  
        > Namaste
        >  
        > Ma-li
        >
        > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@. ..> wrote:
        >
        > From: Non ekster <eckchains@. ..>
        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
        > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
        >
        > Non ekster ; )
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
        > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello All,
        > >
        > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
        > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
        > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
        > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
        > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
        > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
        > >
        > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
        > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
        > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
        > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
        > > left but God?
        > >
        > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
        > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
        > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
        > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
        > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
        > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
        > >
        > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
        > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
        > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
        > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
        > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
        > > you'd prefer.
        > >
        > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
        > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
        > > the answers.
        > >
        > > Namaste
        > >
        > > Ma-li
        > >
        >


      • Ma-li
        Liska, I haven t checked these out yet, but will soon.  Still trying to get all of Ford s ebook read, but have to do it slowly since it really hurts my eyes
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
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          Liska, I haven't checked these out yet, but will soon.  Still trying to get all of Ford's ebook read, but have to do it slowly since it really hurts my eyes to read on the monitor.
           
          Thanks bunches.
           
          Namaste
           
          Ma-li

          --- On Thu, 12/4/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
          From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 1:30 PM

          Ma-li,
          Have you checked out the free Henry T. Laurency .pdf books?

          http://laurency. com/

          I also recommend Neville Goddard, Joel Goldsmith, Ramana Maharshi, and
          Jiddu Krishnamurti.

          Regards
          Liska

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li
          <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Non ekster et al,
          >  
          > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm
          living in the Now all the time. However, on another level, I
          think/feel that I should be doing/being something more than just
          being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the
          student who finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for
          the other 2 hours...just sit there quietly, leave the room, or go back
          over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it doesn't feel right
          that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
          working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up
          the test, but he doesn't want to go back and change answers because he
          also feels he did the best he could.  What does he do to fill the
          empty space?
          >  
          > Namaste
          >  
          > Ma-li
          >
          > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@. ..> wrote:
          >
          > From: Non ekster <eckchains@. ..>
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
          > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
          >
          > Non ekster ; )
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
          > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello All,
          > >
          > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
          > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
          > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
          > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
          > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
          > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
          > >
          > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
          > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
          > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
          > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
          > > left but God?
          > >
          > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
          > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
          > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
          > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
          > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
          > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
          > >
          > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
          > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
          > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
          > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
          > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
          > > you'd prefer.
          > >
          > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
          > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
          > > the answers.
          > >
          > > Namaste
          > >
          > > Ma-li
          > >
          >


        • Ma-li
          Hi Prometheus,   Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable comments.  I do appreciate them, and can relate to what you said.   I too wanted to believe
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Prometheus,
             
            Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable comments.  I do appreciate them, and can relate to what you said.
             
            I too wanted to believe all the malarky that was being fed to me, and had problems buying into what HK was saying.  As Eckankar evolved/devolved under HK, it seemed to be leaving me with an empty feeling.  I could get the same stories from any 5th grader.  I made that comment to another Eckist, and was told HK had to make it simpler for those just "coming in".  If those "coming in" were supposed to be already more spiritually advanced than those of us who had been there a long time, then why dumb it down.  Just one more thing that didn't set well with me.
             
            As for the spiritual exercises, apparently I didn't do them in an acceptable manner, but that was the way that was comfortable to me.  I haven't done them in quite a while now, and eventually will invent my own means of doing spiritual contemplation, if need be.  I spend a lot of time in Nature....gonna go out on a limb here and tell you that my entire life has been involved with helping animals in need...from the newborn to the ancient with special needs that require almost constant care.  I learned more about love from these animals than I ever did from HK, and feel blessed to have been given so much unconditional love and trust by beings usually untrusting of humans.  As each one passed over, it broke my heart, but I knew they were in a better place.  At least they had experienced love on this plane, and I'm sure it helped their Soul progression too. They were as close to me as my own heartbeat, and still are even tho' they have gone.
             
            By giving up this spiritual path, I feel more free to be me, and to know and love all life whatever the form.  Still have to work on the rattlesnakes and flies however. lol
             
            I think I bought into Eckankar for as long as I did because it seemed like the right thing to do at the time.  As the dis-satisfatico grew, I knew I had to be true to myself first and foremost.  Maybe it was the challenge of attaining initiations, I'm not certain.  I just know that somewhere along the line they ceased to matter, and my eyes were opening to see more about the spiritual path I was on. Didn't like what I saw, but didn't know how to get off the path.   I have done lots of "outside" reading over the years, and that has been instrumental in my eyes being opened.  Then there was that little sticking point that has always galled me........needing a mediator to connect with God.  If I didn't believe priests, ministers etc. could do it,  why should the Mahanta be any different???  There was no difference, and I finally "saw the light".
             
            My test has been taken, and I've completed it long before the others.  I have no doubts, and don't need to recheck my answers.  I won't sit around and wait for the others to finish, but will walk out the door into a world of fun, love, joy, and totally of my making.  I am the captain of my own ship now, and feel certain I will attain whatever spiritual goals I set for myself.
             
            I have been feeling guilty about not feeling guilty about leaving Eckankar.  It was guilt that had me wondering what to do next.  Now, thanks to all the wonderful posts by you, etznab, aftrek, mish, the guilt has gone away.  You all took the plunge with your eyes wide open, went thru the "what now" period, and emerged on the other side as full, complete human beings in charge of your own destinies.  May I join your ranks? 


            --- On Thu, 12/4/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:26 PM

            Hello Ma-li,
            I thought I'd respond as well. For one
            thing I can't recommend anything to
            read, but I find many of the resources
            listed on this site to be interesting.

            As far as believing these and other sources
            of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
            and everything by the so called "experts." I
            definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
            seems to be selling something for one reason
            or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
            subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

            Ma-li wrote:
            [snip]
            "Would anyone like to share with me how you
            handled it when you decided to leave, and
            especially what did you do about the spiritual
            exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
            Eck Masters never really existed, except in
            writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
            left but God?"

            *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
            many things in ECKankar just didn't make
            sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
            it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
            and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
            every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
            opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
            one dimensional stories didn't help either.
            I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
            my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
            believable to others.

            However, I've always known and had proof of
            Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
            I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
            of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
            and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
            amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
            or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
            long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
            because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
            in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
            HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
            can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
            Contentment that I could never achieve while under
            the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
            up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
            new is it?

            "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
            beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
            the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
            the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
            warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
            IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
            the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
            IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

            *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
            and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
            observing Nature is very contemplative and
            peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
            The past tunes take one back to one's youth
            and beyond and into other times as does reading
            about or watching history on TV. It's good to
            know about how we became who we are and
            what we think we are in order to know more
            about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

            "All this being said, I don't know what to do
            about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
            from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
            and need to make a choice about what to do next.
            If someone would care to share their experiences
            and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
            can use my private email if you'd prefer."

            *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
            Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
            buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
            because of friends and/or the promise of God-
            Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
            giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
            I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
            give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
            after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
            I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
            and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
            many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
            a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
            me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
            reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
            same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

            [snip]
            Ma-li (also) wrote:
            "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
            working until he's got himself almost convinced
            he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
            to go back and change answers because he also
            feels he did the best he could.

            What does he do to fill the empty space?"

            *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
            (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
            it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
            Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
            middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
            Masters in the making.

            When one follows another they give up their ability
            to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
            give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
            a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
            Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
            Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
            No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

            Prometheus



          • prometheus_973
            Hello Ma-li, It appears that you have already joined our ranks! You sound like an old friend where the passage of time and space becomes irrelevant to the
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Ma-li,
              It appears that you have already joined
              our ranks! You sound like an old friend
              where the passage of time and space
              becomes irrelevant to the friendship,
              the journey, and to the connection of Soul.

              I enjoyed reading of your experiences
              and insights too. Yes, I too have mixed
              feelings about flies and rattlesnakes.
              I usually give them fair warning first and
              offer them an out before taking preventative
              (extreme) measures. The thing is it startles
              me, at times, when other (friendly) snakes
              sneak up on me, or I "discover" them. It's
              actually kind of funny, but I scold them
              for scaring me or for me scaring myself!

              Prometheus


              Ma-li wrote:
              Hi Prometheus,

              Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable
              comments. I do appreciate them, and can relate
              to what you said.

              I too wanted to believe all the malarky that was
              being fed to me, and had problems buying into
              what HK was saying. As Eckankar evolved/devolved
              under HK, it seemed to be leaving me with an empty
              feeling. I could get the same stories from any 5th
              grader. I made that comment to another Eckist,
              and was told HK had to make it simpler for those
              just "coming in". If those "coming in" were supposed
              to be already more spiritually advanced than those
              of us who had been there a long time, then why
              dumb it down. Just one more thing that didn't set
              well with me.

              As for the spiritual exercises, apparently I didn't
              do them in an acceptable manner, but that was
              the way that was comfortable to me. I haven't
              done them in quite a while now, and eventually
              will invent my own means of doing spiritual
              contemplation, if need be. I spend a lot of time
              in Nature....gonna go out on a limb here and tell
              you that my entire life has been involved with
              helping animals in need...from the newborn to
              the ancient with special needs that require almost
              constant care. I learned more about love from
              these animals than I ever did from HK, and feel
              blessed to have been given so much unconditional
              love and trust by beings usually untrusting of humans.
              As each one passed over, it broke my heart, but
              I knew they were in a better place. At least they
              had experienced love on this plane, and I'm sure
              it helped their Soul progression too. They were as
              close to me as my own heartbeat, and still are even
              tho' they have gone.

              By giving up this spiritual path, I feel more free
              to be me, and to know and love all life whatever
              the form. Still have to work on the rattlesnakes
              and flies however. lol

              I think I bought into Eckankar for as long as I did
              because it seemed like the right thing to do at the
              time. As the dis-satisfatico grew, I knew I had to
              be true to myself first and foremost. Maybe it was
              the challenge of attaining initiations, I'm not certain.
              I just know that somewhere along the line they ceased
              to matter, and my eyes were opening to see more
              about the spiritual path I was on. Didn't like what
              I saw, but didn't know how to get off the path.
              I have done lots of "outside" reading over the years,
              and that has been instrumental in my eyes being
              opened. Then there was that little sticking point
              that has always galled me........needing a mediator
              to connect with God. If I didn't believe priests,
              ministers etc. could do it, why should the Mahanta
              be any different??? There was no difference, and
              I finally "saw the light".

              My test has been taken, and I've completed it long
              before the others. I have no doubts, and don't need
              to recheck my answers. I won't sit around and wait
              for the others to finish, but will walk out the door
              into a world of fun, love, joy, and totally of my making.
              I am the captain of my own ship now, and feel certain
              I will attain whatever spiritual goals I set for myself.

              I have been feeling guilty about not feeling guilty
              about leaving Eckankar. It was guilt that had me
              wondering what to do next. Now, thanks to all the
              wonderful posts by you, etznab, aftrek, mish, the
              guilt has gone away. You all took the plunge with
              your eyes wide open, went thru the "what now"
              period, and emerged on the other side as full,
              complete human beings in charge of your own
              destinies. May I join your ranks?

              ************************************************
              prometheus wrote:

              Hello Ma-li,
              I thought I'd respond as well. For one
              thing I can't recommend anything to
              read, but I find many of the resources
              listed on this site to be interesting.

              As far as believing these and other sources
              of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
              and everything by the so called "experts." I
              definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
              seems to be selling something for one reason
              or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
              subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

              Ma-li wrote:
              [snip]
              "Would anyone like to share with me how you
              handled it when you decided to leave, and
              especially what did you do about the spiritual
              exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
              Eck Masters never really existed, except in
              writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
              left but God?"

              *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
              many things in ECKankar just didn't make
              sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
              it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
              and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
              every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
              opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
              one dimensional stories didn't help either.
              I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
              my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
              believable to others.

              However, I've always known and had proof of
              Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
              I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
              of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
              and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
              amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
              or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
              long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
              because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
              in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
              HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
              can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
              Contentment that I could never achieve while under
              the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
              up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
              new is it?

              "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
              beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
              the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
              the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
              warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
              IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
              the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
              IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

              *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
              and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
              observing Nature is very contemplative and
              peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
              The past tunes take one back to one's youth
              and beyond and into other times as does reading
              about or watching history on TV. It's good to
              know about how we became who we are and
              what we think we are in order to know more
              about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

              "All this being said, I don't know what to do
              about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
              from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
              and need to make a choice about what to do next.
              If someone would care to share their experiences
              and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
              can use my private email if you'd prefer."

              *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
              Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
              buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
              because of friends and/or the promise of God-
              Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
              giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
              I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
              give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
              after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
              I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
              and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
              many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
              a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
              me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
              reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
              same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

              [snip]
              Ma-li (also) wrote:
              "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
              working until he's got himself almost convinced
              he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
              to go back and change answers because he also
              feels he did the best he could.

              What does he do to fill the empty space?"

              *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
              (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
              it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
              Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
              middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
              Masters in the making.

              When one follows another they give up their ability
              to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
              give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
              a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
              Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
              Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
              No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

              Prometheus
            • drubezarne
              Hi Leanne, I think Ford s statements about Hu and Aum might be valid here. In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson, he says... I would ven­ture that
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 7, 2008
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                Hi Leanne, I think Ford's statements about Hu and Aum might be valid here.

                In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson, he says...

                "I would ven­ture that God has no pref­er­ence and al­so that all
                sounds and words are part of ALL THAT IS, and serve equal­ly well in
                gar­ner­ing God's at­ten­tion."

                and...

                "The im­por­tant point is that all sounds or mantras can en­able the
                in­di­vid­ual to tran­scend the phys­ical di­men­sion and
                ex­pe­ri­ence the ec­stat­ic states and the in­ner planes...They all
                work and can en­able the in­divid­ual to hear the re­mark­able and
                awe-in­spir­ing sounds of the in­ner worlds. As­crib­ing greater
                mag­ic to one sound or mantra over an­oth­er is much like ar­gu­ing
                whose God is great­est. It is a mean­ing­less de­bate for ev­ery­thing
                is part of the ONE. Fur­ther, when the prac­ti­tion­er has had some
                ex­pe­ri­ence with these mantras and the in­ner ex­pe­ri­ences that
                follow, she will come to the re­al­iza­tion that these are not
                out­side sounds; they are a part of her."

                and...

                "The Va­lid­ity of Spir­itu­al Ex­er­cis­es. The ba­sic spir­itu­al
                ex­er­cise of Eck, which Paul called "the easy way," is al­so the
                ba­sic ex­er­cise of the Shabd Yo­ga tra­di­tion, and, as such,
                car­ries with it the in­trin­sic va­lid­ity of this prac­tice in the
                Yo­ga tradi­tion. In these teach­ings, the HU is sung "Hooooooo,"
                where­as in Eck­ankar, it is sung "Hu­uu­uu­uuu" or "hugh" — Paul's
                ef­fort to make it unique. The dif­fer­ence is of no re­al
                sig­nif­icance. Each sound will work and should be con­tin­ued if it
                works for you."

                As to Ek Onkar; it is a Sikh term that means "God is One." Julian
                Johnson's Path of the Masters mentions it. If you downloaded the .pdf
                book, you can do a search for it in Acrobat.

                Regards,
                Liska

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Leanne Thompson
                <le_anne_thompson@...> wrote:
                >
                > Does anyone still HU now that they left eckankar? I use HU-OM or
                other sanskrit words.
                >  
                > BTW in a book of meditation by yogi bhajan I found EK OM KAR. I
                think it was a mantra or something like  that. Has anyone heard of that?
                >  
                > Thanks
                > Leanne
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Liska and All, It s interesting that Ford said, They all work and can enable the individual to hear the remarkable and awe-inspiring sounds of the INNER
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 7, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Liska and All,
                  It's interesting that Ford said,
                  "They all work and can enable
                  the individual to hear the remarkable
                  and awe-inspiring sounds of the INNER
                  WORLDS. Ascribing greater MAGIC to
                  one sound or mantra over another is
                  much like arguing whose God is greatest."
                  [MY CAPS]

                  So, is Ford saying that these are Magical
                  sounds/mantras that have "intrinsic validity."
                  Isn't that a contradiction of terms? Or, is
                  he saying that most people see these as
                  magical words/sounds, but that these
                  have "intrinsic validity" in Shabd Yoga?
                  However, does Shabd Yoga have validity?
                  How much or with what? BTW- I wonder
                  which planes or "inner worlds" Ford was
                  referring to?

                  IMO it does seem that there is something
                  different with the vibratory rate of this
                  sound/mantra (HU) that makes it more
                  unique than the other (AUM), or Not!
                  Perhaps there are Universal sounds/mantras,
                  as well as, more specific ones that match
                  or enhance each person's/Soul's vibratory
                  rate of consciousness. And, this is why one
                  sound works better for one person than with
                  another person.

                  The other quote you gave by Ford was:

                  "The Validity of Spiritual Exercises.

                  The basic spiritual exercise of Eck, which Paul
                  called "the easy way," is also the basic exercise
                  of the Shabd Yoga tradition, and, as such, carries
                  with it the INTRINSIC VALIDITY of this practice
                  in the Yoga tradition. In these teachings, the
                  HU is sung "Hooooooo," where as in Eckankar,
                  it is sung "Huuuuuuu" or "hugh." [MY CAPS]

                  Personally, I often have trouble accepting any
                  promises and beliefs from any religion as valid
                  and, especially, from those religions that have
                  "Living Masters" who have set themselves up as
                  Masters/Godmen/Saviours/Prophets.

                  It is interesting about the HU being sung as
                  "Hooooooo" (who) and "Huuuuuuu" (hue/hugh).

                  I knew ECKists who would sing HU as "Hooooooo"
                  (who)! It was very strange and they sang loud!!!
                  I never did ask them why they did this, but they
                  believed they were part of Harry's inner (Inner)
                  Circle and were more special than most of his
                  RESAs. They had a small following at the major
                  EK Seminars and were very aloof towards the
                  RESA structure and toward rules and guidelines
                  in general. They usually ignored these or acted
                  As If they had no knowledge of these ESC approved
                  procedures. Delusion runs rampant in ECKankar!

                  Prometheus



                  Liska wrote:
                  Hi Leanne, I think Ford's statements about
                  Hu and Aum might be valid here.

                  In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson,
                  he says...

                  "I would venture that God has no preference
                  and also that all sounds and words are part
                  of ALL THAT IS, and serve equally well in
                  garnering God's attention."

                  and...

                  "The important point is that all sounds or
                  mantras can enable the individual to transcend
                  the physical dimension and experience the
                  ecstatic states and the inner planes... They
                  all work and can enable the individual to hear
                  the remarkable and awe-inspiring sounds
                  of the inner worlds. Ascribing greater magic
                  to one sound or mantra over another is much
                  like arguing whose God is greatest. It is a
                  meaningless debate for everything is part of
                  the ONE. Further, when the practitioner has
                  had some experience with these mantras and
                  the inner experiences that follow, she will
                  come to the realization that these are not
                  outside sounds; they are a part of her."

                  and...

                  "The Validity of Spiritual Exercises. The basic
                  spiritual exercise of Eck, which Paul called
                  "the easy way," is also the basic exercise of
                  the Shabd Yoga tradition, and, as such, carries
                  with it the INTRINSIC VALIDITY of this practice
                  in the Yoga tradition. In these teachings, the
                  HU is sung "Hooooooo," where as in Eckankar,
                  it is sung "Huuuuuuuu" or "hugh" — Paul's
                  effort to make it unique. The difference is of
                  no real significance. Each sound will work and
                  should be continued if it works for you."

                  ME: [My Caps]

                  As to Ek Onkar; it is a Sikh term that means
                  "God is One." Julian Johnson's Path of the Masters
                  mentions it. If you downloaded the .pdf
                  book, you can do a search for it in Acrobat.

                  Regards,
                  Liska


                  Leanne wrote:

                  Does anyone still HU now that they left eckankar?
                  I use HU-OM or other sanskrit words.

                  BTW in a book of meditation by yogi bhajan I found
                  EK OM KAR. I think it was a mantra or something like
                  that. Has anyone heard of that?

                  Thanks
                  Leanne
                  >
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