Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?

Expand Messages
  • etznab@aol.com
    All this being said, I don t know what to do about spiritual exercises, or how to progress from here. It s like I m standing alone once again, and need to
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      "All this being said, I don't know what to do
      about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
      from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
      and need to make a choice about what to do next.
      If someone would care to share their experiences
      and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
      can use my private email if you'd prefer."

      Ma-Li,

      I still think one can ask their questions and the
      "universe" will answer.

      Do you like to read books? This is where I get a
      lot of answers to my questions.

      There is this book, with a tacky looking cover &
      a tacky sounding name. Inside the cover though, I
      found it to be anything but tacky. It's called: Punk
      Science, Inside the Mind of God, by Dr. Manjir
      Samanta-Laughton. I saw a book review for it in an
      HCS Newsletter some time ago. Just read it again
      for about the third time.

      Maybe you have another way for connecting and
      receiving guidance from the universe. I'd say follow
      that. Take some initiative and don't give up. See
      what comes.

      This is what impressed me the most about what
      were in the teachings of Eckankar. That I didn't
      have to wait around & depend on other people for
      the answers to everything. Of course, if you depend
      on organized religion for all the answers it could be
      a long wait, IMO. In my experience it was always a
      form of "giving up initiative" - just plain giving up per-
      iod! that left
      me feeling helpless and dependent on
      some invisible "God" as if it were separate from my-
      self that I had to wait around for. That was the real
      bummer for me.

      I would say try what you know works for you. If
      the old methods do not work anymore then initiate
      something new. Don't feel you have to share what
      methods work for you either, or whether they are
      approved of and / or work for other people that you
      know. Find what works for you. That would be my
      advice. If you have a hobby, or something that you
      love to do, maybe explore that.

      Years ago, after I lost something that I loved very
      much, I realized that I had to replace it with some-
      thing in order to fill the void. I invested in another
      love of mine. One that I had since my youth. I had
      a love for words, and for poetry. So I explored the
      subject of words. I put a lot of time into that and it
      grew and grew into something bigger. It took me in-
      to other areas that I loved just as much, like history
      in general. Ancient history, history of religions and
      the history of words became my new friends and I
      got to know them better and better over the years.
      For some reason this is what I love to do. I can do
      it for hours on end and it doesn't feel like "work", if
      you know what I mean. I don't get paid a dollar for
      it either, but it brings a lot of satisfaction because, I
      think, whenever a person develops a talent=2
      0& moves
      in the direction of mastership toward something it
      puts them in a position of being more self sufficient
      and less dependent on others. It also gives them a
      gift that they can share with others. IMO.

      Don't know if this helps, but maybe something
      to consider at least. If in the future, after you find
      something that helps, if it's something you would
      like to share (if you choose) then maybe it could
      be posted here and it will help somebody else in
      a similar situation.

      I know that, for myself, I still feel other voids
      which need to be filled. Every time I find something
      that doesn't work the same (or not at all) anymore
      it leaves a kind of void and I have to do something
      about it. Maybe nothing has to be done, in every
      case, but I'd suspect that most people eventually
      learn to find something better than what they had
      before.

      This is kinda long already. Sorry for the length.

      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:26 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?



      Hello Ma-li,

      I thought I'd respond as well. For one

      thing I can't recommend anything to

      read, but I find many of the resources

      listed on this site to be interesting.



      As far as believing these and other sources

      of info I don't! It's too easily to accept20anything

      and everything by the so called "experts." I

      definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone

      seems to be selling something for one reason

      or another. The Truth is out there, is usually

      subjective, and is found within by each Soul.



      Ma-li wrote:

      [snip]

      "Would anyone like to share with me how you

      handled it when you decided to leave, and

      especially what did you do about the spiritual

      exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the

      Eck Masters never really existed, except in

      writers' fertile minds, then who/what is

      left but God?"



      *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that

      many things in ECKankar just didn't make

      sense and didn't add up even though I wanted

      it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,

      and in the initiations but it was getting tougher

      every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s

      opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and

      one dimensional stories didn't help either.

      I found that I had to put blinders on and hold

      my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound

      believable to others.



      However, I've always known and had proof of

      Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).

      I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How

      of many specifics outside of my realm of experience

      and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk0D

      amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises

      or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many

      long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises

      because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking

      in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still

      HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I

      can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a

      Contentment that I could never achieve while under

      the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give

      up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing

      new is it?



      "God has always been the "real" aspect of my

      beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,

      the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,

      the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the

      warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.

      IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for

      the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.

      IT IS ME, and I AM IT."



      *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside

      and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and

      observing Nature is very contemplative and

      peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!

      The past tunes take one back to one's youth

      and beyond and into other times as does reading

      about or watching history on TV. It's good to

      know about how we became who we are and

      what we think we are in order to kno
      w more

      about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.



      "All this being said, I don't know what to do

      about spiritual exercises, or how to progress

      from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,

      and need to make a choice about what to do next.

      If someone would care to share their experiences

      and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You

      can use my private email if you'd prefer."



      *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.

      Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you

      buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it

      because of friends and/or the promise of God-

      Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble

      giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.

      I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would

      give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies

      after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after

      I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together

      and I saw the con and the realized why there were so

      many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or

      a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to

      me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my

      reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the

      same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!



      [snip]

      Ma-li (also) wrote:

      "...Then the doubts and mental processes beg
      in

      working until he's got himself almost convinced

      he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want

      to go back and change answers because he also

      feels he did the best he could.



      What does he do to fill the empty space?"



      *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time

      (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole

      it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!

      Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'

      middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own

      Masters in the making.



      When one follows another they give up their ability

      to choose and to discover their own Truth. They

      give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need

      a religion to believe in when they can't believe in

      Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in

      Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.

      No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.



      Prometheus



















      =0
      A
    • etznab@aol.com
      Mish, I probably shoulda read all the threads for today first, before responding to Ma-Li. I think if I had read your response first, I probably would have
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Mish,

        I probably shoulda read all the threads for today
        first, before responding to Ma-Li. I think if I had read
        your response first, I probably would have said much
        less myself. It sounded like some good advice to me.
        What you shared, Mish.

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 9:16 am
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?



        Hello Ma-li!



        I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces,

        what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in

        one hour, reminded me of my college days! Actually, I

        remember a few occasions when taking an exam that I

        did actually finish quite early . . . and I remember some

        self-doubts about why I finished it so quickly while others

        were still laboring over the exam. What did I do?? I turned

        the exam in and left the room! And then I did sort of a

        happy dance outside, glad to be free of that exam room . . .

        and how did I do? Well, I did quite well, because I had

        aced those exams, and I was free to go on to the next

        thing . . . and being a college student, I remember heading

        to the beach with some friends for one time and having so

        much fun. Can't quite remember on the other occasions, but

        if it was just before school break, I probably got an early


        start for home! So I guess my message is to trust yourself! : )



        Empty spaces are a luxury really, but they often come at a

        hard time, so there can be the feeling of loss . . . and we

        want to quickly fill it up again with something else. I think

        it is good to just take one's time and find things that are of

        interest. I remember one time in my life when I had to sort

        of re-invent myself. Every morning I'd ask myself what it

        was that I wanted and needed to do with my life to make

        myself happy. Happiness is so essential--it is not selfish to

        want to seek this IMO. My goals had to be reasonable and

        attainable goals--that was one stipulation I placed on myself.

        I finally defined what it was I wanted and wanted to do and

        then I looked for the ways to accomplish it all, one by one.



        I guess what I'm saying you have to ask yourself what it is

        you need and then find the ways to have it. But take your

        time and enjoy the freedom of those empty spaces because

        they allow you freedom for introspection which is needed to

        take the next steps--all by your own choices and decisions!



        Good luck! And I'd like to offer a couple of books for reading

        as well. One member of our site who left eckankar after 30

        years found Jed McKenna's book "Spiritual Enlightenment, the

        Damnest Thing" to greatly help her to handle
        the void. She

        still says it is the best book! I also like Sam Harris' book "The

        End of Faith", and also enjoyed Bill Moyers TV series on "On Faith

        and Reason" to be quite valuable. You can google for the Bill

        Moyers series to find and read the transcripts.



        Mish



        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li
        <mhstarlings@...> wrote:

        >

        > Hello Non ekster et al,

        >  

        > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like
        I'm living in the Now all

        the time. However, on another level, I think/feel that I should be
        doing/being something

        more than just being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it
        to the student who

        finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for the other 2
        hours...just sit there

        quietly, leave the room, or go back over the test yet again?  He's in a
        quandry, and it

        doesn't feel right that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental
        processes begin

        working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up
        the test, but he

        doesn't want to go back and change answers because he also feels he did
        the best he

        could.  What does he do to fill the empty space?

        >  

        > Namaste

        >  

        > Ma-li

        >

        > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@...> wrote:


        >

        > From: Non ekster <eckchains@...>

        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?

        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

        > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.

        >

        > Non ekster ; )

        >

        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"

        > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:

        > >

        > > Hello All,

        > >

        > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined

        > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years
        of Eck

        > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years
        ago.

        > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about

        > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find
        answers,

        > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.

        > >

        > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when
        you

        > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the
        spiritual

        > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters
        never

        > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then
        who/what is

        > > left but God?

        > >

        > > God has
        always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in

        > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the
        four-

        > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
        warm

        > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that
        gives

        > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in

        > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.

        > >

        > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual

        > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm
        standing

        > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do
        next.

        > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices
        from

        > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email
        if

        > > you'd prefer.

        > >

        > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much
        Prometheus for

        > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they
        search for

        > > the answers.

        > >

        > > Namaste

        > >

        > > Ma-li

        > >

        >
      • etznab@aol.com
        My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people s works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day mundane existence. I
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          "My primary goal is personal experience,
          but reading other people's works helps focus
          my attention on something greater than day
          to day mundane existence."

          I agree that a lot can be learned from
          others, while at the same time I suspect
          there is a not so well noticed connection
          between how people search and what they
          actually find.

          What I mean to say is that I believe one's
          paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
          happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
          replaced by another. A better one. Because
          the former seems to become old and like all
          the juice squeezed out of the lemon.

          Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
          seem to leave the same old, same old over
          and over like a broken record.

          This is one of the traps I have found myself
          in time and time again. By limiting myself to
          only certain specific paradigms, listening and
          reading only certain specific authors and then
          thinking along only certain specific lines.

          I like to meet a variety of different people &
          hear about a variety of different experiences.
          In fact, I think if one would consider how many
          different people there are in the world, and that
          much potential for experience were available to
          them, it might not sound too impossible how
          one part of the "universe" could answer another
          part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
          ships.

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: drubezarn
          e <drubezarne@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?



          Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about

          Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as

          intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning

          your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.



          When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere

          in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden

          thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the

          limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to

          imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem

          honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or

          boost their egos.



          I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For

          example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in

          meditation/contemplation. On the inner planes, thinking and

          visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when

          assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because

          they are no longer necessary.



          The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance

          state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the

          body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
          wareness. However,

          I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to

          place my attention on the formless.



          Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of

          the best explanations for our existence.



          By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books

          and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's

          books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book

          motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.



          My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's

          works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day

          mundane existence.



          I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to

          learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is

          there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role

          is to practice and develop my own style of playing.



          All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I

          don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all

          spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I

          don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking

          Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the

          extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore

          and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for

          one reason or another."



          Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select

          individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke

          up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think

          selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.



          Regards

          Liska



          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"

          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

          >

          > Hello Ma-li,

          > I thought I'd respond as well. For one

          > thing I can't recommend anything to

          > read, but I find many of the resources

          > listed on this site to be interesting.

          >

          > As far as believing these and other sources

          > of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything

          > and everything by the so called "experts." I

          > definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone

          > seems to be selling something for one reason

          > or another. The Truth is out there, is usually

          > subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

          >

          >

          >

          > Ma-li wrote:

          > [snip]

          > "Would anyone like to share with me how you

          > handled it when you decided to leave, and

          > especially what did you do about the spiritual

          > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the

          >
          ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in

          > writers' fertile minds, then who/what is

          > left but God?"

          >

          >

          >

          > *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that

          > many things in ECKankar just didn't make

          > sense and didn't add up even though I wanted

          > it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,

          > and in the initiations but it was getting tougher

          > every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s

          > opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and

          > one dimensional stories didn't help either.

          > I found that I had to put blinders on and hold

          > my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound

          > believable to others.

          >

          > However, I've always known and had proof of

          > Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).

          > I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How

          > of many specifics outside of my realm of experience

          > and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk

          > amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises

          > or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many

          > long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises

          > because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking

          > in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still

          > HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I

          > can experience a
          Oneness with All There Is and a

          > Contentment that I could never achieve while under

          > the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give

          > up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing

          > new is it?

          >

          >

          >

          > "God has always been the "real" aspect of my

          > beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,

          > the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,

          > the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the

          > warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.

          > IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for

          > the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.

          > IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

          >

          >

          >

          > *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside

          > and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and

          > observing Nature is very contemplative and

          > peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!

          > The past tunes take one back to one's youth

          > and beyond and into other times as does reading

          > about or watching history on TV. It's good to

          > know about how we became who we are and

          > what we think we are in order to know more

          > about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

          >

          >

          >

          > "All this being said, I don't know what to do

          > about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
          s

          > from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,

          > and need to make a choice about what to do next.

          > If someone would care to share their experiences

          > and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You

          > can use my private email if you'd prefer."

          >

          >

          >

          > *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.

          > Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you

          > buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it

          > because of friends and/or the promise of God-

          > Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble

          > giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.

          > I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would

          > give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies

          > after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after

          > I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together

          > and I saw the con and the realized why there were so

          > many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or

          > a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to

          > me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my

          > reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the

          > same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > [snip]

          > Ma-li (also) wrote:

          > "...Then the doubts
          and mental processes begin

          > working until he's got himself almost convinced

          > he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want

          > to go back and change answers because he also

          > feels he did the best he could.

          >

          > What does he do to fill the empty space?"

          >

          >

          >

          > *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time

          > (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole

          > it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!

          > Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'

          > middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own

          > Masters in the making.

          >

          > When one follows another they give up their ability

          > to choose and to discover their own Truth. They

          > give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need

          > a religion to believe in when they can't believe in

          > Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in

          > Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.

          > No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

          >

          > Prometheus

          >
        • drubezarne
          Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said below... I agree that a lot can be learned from others, while at the same time I
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said
            below...

            "I agree that a lot can be learned from
            others, while at the same time I suspect
            there is a not so well noticed connection
            between how people search and what they
            actually find.

            What I mean to say is that I believe one's
            paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
            happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
            replaced by another. A better one. Because
            the former seems to become old and like all
            the juice squeezed out of the lemon."

            Due to the temporary nature of this world and everything in it, all
            things have their place and value in time. As individual consciousness
            evolves, old concepts no longer fit and the Soul moves on to newer and
            greater horizons. It's what we all did when we rejected the idea of an
            infallible master. I myself, realized that there is only God - Soul
            and nothing in-between. Anyone who declares themselves an intermediary
            between God and Soul is a fraud.

            Regards
            Liska

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > "My primary goal is personal experience,
            > but reading other people's works helps focus
            > my attention on something greater than day
            > to day mundane existence."
            >
            > I agree that a lot can be learned from
            > others, while at the same time I suspect
            > there is a not so well noticed connection
            > between how people search and what they
            > actually find.
            >
            > What I mean to say is that I believe one's
            > paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
            > happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
            > replaced by another. A better one. Because
            > the former seems to become old and like all
            > the juice squeezed out of the lemon.
            >
            > Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
            > seem to leave the same old, same old over
            > and over like a broken record.
            >
            > This is one of the traps I have found myself
            > in time and time again. By limiting myself to
            > only certain specific paradigms, listening and
            > reading only certain specific authors and then
            > thinking along only certain specific lines.
            >
            > I like to meet a variety of different people &
            > hear about a variety of different experiences.
            > In fact, I think if one would consider how many
            > different people there are in the world, and that
            > much potential for experience were available to
            > them, it might not sound too impossible how
            > one part of the "universe" could answer another
            > part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
            > ships.
            >
            > Etznab
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: drubezarn
            > e <drubezarne@...>
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
            >
            >
            >
            > Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about
            >
            > Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as
            >
            > intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning
            >
            > your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.
            >
            >
            >
            > When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere
            >
            > in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden
            >
            > thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the
            >
            > limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to
            >
            > imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem
            >
            > honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or
            >
            > boost their egos.
            >
            >
            >
            > I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For
            >
            > example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in
            >
            > meditation/contemplation. On the inner planes, thinking and
            >
            > visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when
            >
            > assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because
            >
            > they are no longer necessary.
            >
            >
            >
            > The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance
            >
            > state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the
            >
            > body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
            > wareness. However,
            >
            > I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to
            >
            > place my attention on the formless.
            >
            >
            >
            > Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of
            >
            > the best explanations for our existence.
            >
            >
            >
            > By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books
            >
            > and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's
            >
            > books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book
            >
            > motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.
            >
            >
            >
            > My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's
            >
            > works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day
            >
            > mundane existence.
            >
            >
            >
            > I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to
            >
            > learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is
            >
            > there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role
            >
            > is to practice and develop my own style of playing.
            >
            >
            >
            > All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I
            >
            > don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all
            >
            > spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I
            >
            > don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking
            >
            > Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the
            >
            > extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore
            >
            > and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for
            >
            > one reason or another."
            >
            >
            >
            > Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select
            >
            > individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke
            >
            > up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think
            >
            > selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.
            >
            >
            >
            > Regards
            >
            > Liska
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            >
            > prometheus_973@ wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Hello Ma-li,
            >
            > > I thought I'd respond as well. For one
            >
            > > thing I can't recommend anything to
            >
            > > read, but I find many of the resources
            >
            > > listed on this site to be interesting.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > As far as believing these and other sources
            >
            > > of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
            >
            > > and everything by the so called "experts." I
            >
            > > definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
            >
            > > seems to be selling something for one reason
            >
            > > or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
            >
            > > subjective, and is found within by each Soul.
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Ma-li wrote:
            >
            > > [snip]
            >
            > > "Would anyone like to share with me how you
            >
            > > handled it when you decided to leave, and
            >
            > > especially what did you do about the spiritual
            >
            > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
            >
            > >
            > ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in
            >
            > > writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
            >
            > > left but God?"
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
            >
            > > many things in ECKankar just didn't make
            >
            > > sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
            >
            > > it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
            >
            > > and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
            >
            > > every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
            >
            > > opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
            >
            > > one dimensional stories didn't help either.
            >
            > > I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
            >
            > > my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
            >
            > > believable to others.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > However, I've always known and had proof of
            >
            > > Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
            >
            > > I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
            >
            > > of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
            >
            > > and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
            >
            > > amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
            >
            > > or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
            >
            > > long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
            >
            > > because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
            >
            > > in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
            >
            > > HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
            >
            > > can experience a
            > Oneness with All There Is and a
            >
            > > Contentment that I could never achieve while under
            >
            > > the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
            >
            > > up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
            >
            > > new is it?
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
            >
            > > beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
            >
            > > the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
            >
            > > the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
            >
            > > warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
            >
            > > IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
            >
            > > the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
            >
            > > IT IS ME, and I AM IT."
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
            >
            > > and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
            >
            > > observing Nature is very contemplative and
            >
            > > peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
            >
            > > The past tunes take one back to one's youth
            >
            > > and beyond and into other times as does reading
            >
            > > about or watching history on TV. It's good to
            >
            > > know about how we became who we are and
            >
            > > what we think we are in order to know more
            >
            > > about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > "All this being said, I don't know what to do
            >
            > > about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
            > s
            >
            > > from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
            >
            > > and need to make a choice about what to do next.
            >
            > > If someone would care to share their experiences
            >
            > > and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
            >
            > > can use my private email if you'd prefer."
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
            >
            > > Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
            >
            > > buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
            >
            > > because of friends and/or the promise of God-
            >
            > > Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
            >
            > > giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
            >
            > > I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
            >
            > > give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
            >
            > > after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
            >
            > > I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
            >
            > > and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
            >
            > > many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
            >
            > > a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
            >
            > > me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
            >
            > > reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
            >
            > > same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > [snip]
            >
            > > Ma-li (also) wrote:
            >
            > > "...Then the doubts
            > and mental processes begin
            >
            > > working until he's got himself almost convinced
            >
            > > he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
            >
            > > to go back and change answers because he also
            >
            > > feels he did the best he could.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > What does he do to fill the empty space?"
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
            >
            > > (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
            >
            > > it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
            >
            > > Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
            >
            > > middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
            >
            > > Masters in the making.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > When one follows another they give up their ability
            >
            > > to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
            >
            > > give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
            >
            > > a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
            >
            > > Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
            >
            > > Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
            >
            > > No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Prometheus
            >
            > >
            >
          • Ma-li
            Liska,   I totally agree with what you stated in your last paragraph.  Would that I had known that years aog, it might have saved me a lot of problems. 
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Liska,
               
              I totally agree with what you stated in your last paragraph.  Would that I had known that years aog, it might have saved me a lot of problems.  However, then I would not have learned all the truths I did find thru Eckankar, and for that I'm eternally grateful.  I'm right where I'm supposed to be, in the perfect place and in the perfect moment.
               
              Namaste,
               
              Ma-li

              --- On Sat, 12/6/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
              From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 11:52 AM

              Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said
              below...

              "I agree that a lot can be learned from
              others, while at the same time I suspect
              there is a not so well noticed connection
              between how people search and what they
              actually find.

              What I mean to say is that I believe one's
              paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
              happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
              replaced by another. A better one. Because
              the former seems to become old and like all
              the juice squeezed out of the lemon."

              Due to the temporary nature of this world and everything in it, all
              things have their place and value in time. As individual consciousness
              evolves, old concepts no longer fit and the Soul moves on to newer and
              greater horizons. It's what we all did when we rejected the idea of an
              infallible master. I myself, realized that there is only God - Soul
              and nothing in-between. Anyone who declares themselves an intermediary
              between God and Soul is a fraud.

              Regards
              Liska

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, etznab@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > "My primary goal is personal experience,
              > but reading other people's works helps focus
              > my attention on something greater than day
              > to day mundane existence."
              >
              > I agree that a lot can be learned from
              > others, while at the same time I suspect
              > there is a not so well noticed connection
              > between how people search and what they
              > actually find.
              >
              > What I mean to say is that I believe one's
              > paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
              > happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
              > replaced by another. A better one. Because
              > the former seems to become old and like all
              > the juice squeezed out of the lemon.
              >
              > Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
              > seem to leave the same old, same old over
              > and over like a broken record.
              >
              > This is one of the traps I have found myself
              > in time and time again. By limiting myself to
              > only certain specific paradigms, listening and
              > reading only certain specific authors and then
              > thinking along only certain specific lines.
              >
              > I like to meet a variety of different people &
              > hear about a variety of different experiences.
              > In fact, I think if one would consider how many
              > different people there are in the world, and that
              > much potential for experience were available to
              > them, it might not sound too impossible how
              > one part of the "universe" could answer another
              > part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
              > ships.
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: drubezarn
              > e <drubezarne@ ...>
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
              > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
              >
              >
              >
              > Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about
              >
              > Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as
              >
              > intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning
              >
              > your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.
              >
              >
              >
              > When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere
              >
              > in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden
              >
              > thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the
              >
              > limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to
              >
              > imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem
              >
              > honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or
              >
              > boost their egos.
              >
              >
              >
              > I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For
              >
              > example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in
              >
              > meditation/contempl ation. On the inner planes, thinking and
              >
              > visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when
              >
              > assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because
              >
              > they are no longer necessary.
              >
              >
              >
              > The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance
              >
              > state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the
              >
              > body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
              > wareness. However,
              >
              > I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to
              >
              > place my attention on the formless.
              >
              >
              >
              > Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of
              >
              > the best explanations for our existence.
              >
              >
              >
              > By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books
              >
              > and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's
              >
              > books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book
              >
              > motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.
              >
              >
              >
              > My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's
              >
              > works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day
              >
              > mundane existence.
              >
              >
              >
              > I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to
              >
              > learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is
              >
              > there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role
              >
              > is to practice and develop my own style of playing.
              >
              >
              >
              > All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I
              >
              > don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all
              >
              > spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I
              >
              > don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking
              >
              > Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the
              >
              > extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore
              >
              > and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for
              >
              > one reason or another."
              >
              >
              >
              > Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select
              >
              > individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke
              >
              > up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think
              >
              > selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.
              >
              >
              >
              > Regards
              >
              > Liska
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "prometheus_ 973"
              >
              > prometheus_973@ wrote:
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; Hello Ma-li,
              >
              > &gt; I thought I'd respond as well. For one
              >
              > &gt; thing I can't recommend anything to
              >
              > &gt; read, but I find many of the resources
              >
              > &gt; listed on this site to be interesting.
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; As far as believing these and other sources
              >
              > &gt; of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
              >
              > &gt; and everything by the so called "experts." I
              >
              > &gt; definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
              >
              > &gt; seems to be selling something for one reason
              >
              > &gt; or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
              >
              > &gt; subjective, and is found within by each Soul.
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; Ma-li wrote:
              >
              > &gt; [snip]
              >
              > &gt; "Would anyone like to share with me how you
              >
              > &gt; handled it when you decided to leave, and
              >
              > &gt; especially what did you do about the spiritual
              >
              > &gt; exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
              >
              > &gt
              > ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in
              >
              > &gt; writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
              >
              > &gt; left but God?"
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
              >
              > &gt; many things in ECKankar just didn't make
              >
              > &gt; sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
              >
              > &gt; it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
              >
              > &gt; and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
              >
              > &gt; every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
              >
              > &gt; opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
              >
              > &gt; one dimensional stories didn't help either.
              >
              > &gt; I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
              >
              > &gt; my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
              >
              > &gt; believable to others.
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; However, I've always known and had proof of
              >
              > &gt; Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
              >
              > &gt; I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
              >
              > &gt; of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
              >
              > &gt; and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
              >
              > &gt; amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
              >
              > &gt; or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
              >
              > &gt; long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
              >
              > &gt; because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
              >
              > &gt; in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
              >
              > &gt; HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
              >
              > &gt; can experience a
              > Oneness with All There Is and a
              >
              > &gt; Contentment that I could never achieve while under
              >
              > &gt; the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
              >
              > &gt; up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
              >
              > &gt; new is it?
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
              >
              > &gt; beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
              >
              > &gt; the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
              >
              > &gt; the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
              >
              > &gt; warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
              >
              > &gt; IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
              >
              > &gt; the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
              >
              > &gt; IT IS ME, and I AM IT."
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
              >
              > &gt; and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
              >
              > &gt; observing Nature is very contemplative and
              >
              > &gt; peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
              >
              > &gt; The past tunes take one back to one's youth
              >
              > &gt; and beyond and into other times as does reading
              >
              > &gt; about or watching history on TV. It's good to
              >
              > &gt; know about how we became who we are and
              >
              > &gt; what we think we are in order to know more
              >
              > &gt; about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; "All this being said, I don't know what to do
              >
              > &gt; about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
              > s
              >
              > &gt; from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
              >
              > &gt; and need to make a choice about what to do next.
              >
              > &gt; If someone would care to share their experiences
              >
              > &gt; and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
              >
              > &gt; can use my private email if you'd prefer."
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
              >
              > &gt; Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
              >
              > &gt; buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
              >
              > &gt; because of friends and/or the promise of God-
              >
              > &gt; Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
              >
              > &gt; giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
              >
              > &gt; I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
              >
              > &gt; give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
              >
              > &gt; after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
              >
              > &gt; I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
              >
              > &gt; and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
              >
              > &gt; many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
              >
              > &gt; a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
              >
              > &gt; me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
              >
              > &gt; reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
              >
              > &gt; same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; [snip]
              >
              > &gt; Ma-li (also) wrote:
              >
              > &gt; "...Then the doubts
              > and mental processes begin
              >
              > &gt; working until he's got himself almost convinced
              >
              > &gt; he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
              >
              > &gt; to go back and change answers because he also
              >
              > &gt; feels he did the best he could.
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; What does he do to fill the empty space?"
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
              >
              > &gt; (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
              >
              > &gt; it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
              >
              > &gt; Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
              >
              > &gt; middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
              >
              > &gt; Masters in the making.
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; When one follows another they give up their ability
              >
              > &gt; to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
              >
              > &gt; give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
              >
              > &gt; a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
              >
              > &gt; Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
              >
              > &gt; Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
              >
              > &gt; No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.
              >
              > &gt;
              >
              > &gt; Prometheus
              >
              > &gt;
              >


            • Ma-li
              Thank you, Mish, and I will take time to just enjoy the empty spaces.  I have a feeling they won t be around much longer. lol  Haven t read the books you
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Thank you, Mish, and I will take time to just enjoy the empty spaces.  I have a feeling they won't be around much longer. lol  Haven't read the books you recommend, but will find them one day soon.
                 
                Re: tests in college....those were the days.lol  I did just what you did....left the others to sit and stew while I was out enjoying what the day had to offer.  Funny how the faster I did a test the better score I received.
                 
                Namaste
                 
                Ma-li

                --- On Fri, 12/5/08, mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 8:16 AM

                Hello Ma-li!

                I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces,
                what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in
                one hour, reminded me of my college days! Actually, I
                remember a few occasions when taking an exam that I
                did actually finish quite early . . . and I remember some
                self-doubts about why I finished it so quickly while others
                were still laboring over the exam. What did I do?? I turned
                the exam in and left the room! And then I did sort of a
                happy dance outside, glad to be free of that exam room . . .
                and how did I do? Well, I did quite well, because I had
                aced those exams, and I was free to go on to the next
                thing . . . and being a college student, I remember heading
                to the beach with some friends for one time and having so
                much fun. Can't quite remember on the other occasions, but
                if it was just before school break, I probably got an early
                start for home! So I guess my message is to trust yourself! : )

                Empty spaces are a luxury really, but they often come at a
                hard time, so there can be the feeling of loss . . . and we
                want to quickly fill it up again with something else. I think
                it is good to just take one's time and find things that are of
                interest. I remember one time in my life when I had to sort
                of re-invent myself. Every morning I'd ask myself what it
                was that I wanted and needed to do with my life to make
                myself happy. Happiness is so essential--it is not selfish to
                want to seek this IMO. My goals had to be reasonable and
                attainable goals--that was one stipulation I placed on myself.
                I finally defined what it was I wanted and wanted to do and
                then I looked for the ways to accomplish it all, one by one.

                I guess what I'm saying you have to ask yourself what it is
                you need and then find the ways to have it. But take your
                time and enjoy the freedom of those empty spaces because
                they allow you freedom for introspection which is needed to
                take the next steps--all by your own choices and decisions!

                Good luck! And I'd like to offer a couple of books for reading
                as well. One member of our site who left eckankar after 30
                years found Jed McKenna's book "Spiritual Enlightenment, the
                Damnest Thing" to greatly help her to handle the void. She
                still says it is the best book! I also like Sam Harris' book "The
                End of Faith", and also enjoyed Bill Moyers TV series on "On Faith
                and Reason" to be quite valuable. You can google for the Bill
                Moyers series to find and read the transcripts.

                Mish

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Non ekster et al,
                >  
                > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm living in the Now all
                the time. However, on another level, I think/feel that I should be doing/being something
                more than just being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the student who
                finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for the other 2 hours...just sit there
                quietly, leave the room, or go back over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it
                doesn't feel right that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up the test, but he
                doesn't want to go back and change answers because he also feels he did the best he
                could.  What does he do to fill the empty space?
                >  
                > Namaste
                >  
                > Ma-li
                >
                > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@. ..> wrote:
                >
                > From: Non ekster <eckchains@. ..>
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
                >
                > Non ekster ; )
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
                > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello All,
                > >
                > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
                > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
                > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
                > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
                > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
                > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
                > >
                > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
                > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
                > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
                > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                > > left but God?
                > >
                > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
                > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
                > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
                > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
                > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
                > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
                > >
                > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
                > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
                > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
                > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
                > > you'd prefer.
                > >
                > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
                > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
                > > the answers.
                > >
                > > Namaste
                > >
                > > Ma-li
                > >
                >


              • Ma-li
                Liska, I haven t checked these out yet, but will soon.  Still trying to get all of Ford s ebook read, but have to do it slowly since it really hurts my eyes
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Liska, I haven't checked these out yet, but will soon.  Still trying to get all of Ford's ebook read, but have to do it slowly since it really hurts my eyes to read on the monitor.
                   
                  Thanks bunches.
                   
                  Namaste
                   
                  Ma-li

                  --- On Thu, 12/4/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                  From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 1:30 PM

                  Ma-li,
                  Have you checked out the free Henry T. Laurency .pdf books?

                  http://laurency. com/

                  I also recommend Neville Goddard, Joel Goldsmith, Ramana Maharshi, and
                  Jiddu Krishnamurti.

                  Regards
                  Liska

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li
                  <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Non ekster et al,
                  >  
                  > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm
                  living in the Now all the time. However, on another level, I
                  think/feel that I should be doing/being something more than just
                  being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the
                  student who finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for
                  the other 2 hours...just sit there quietly, leave the room, or go back
                  over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it doesn't feel right
                  that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                  working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up
                  the test, but he doesn't want to go back and change answers because he
                  also feels he did the best he could.  What does he do to fill the
                  empty space?
                  >  
                  > Namaste
                  >  
                  > Ma-li
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Non ekster <eckchains@. ..>
                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
                  >
                  > Non ekster ; )
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
                  > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello All,
                  > >
                  > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
                  > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
                  > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
                  > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
                  > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
                  > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
                  > >
                  > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
                  > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
                  > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
                  > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                  > > left but God?
                  > >
                  > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
                  > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
                  > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
                  > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
                  > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
                  > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
                  > >
                  > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
                  > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
                  > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                  > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
                  > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
                  > > you'd prefer.
                  > >
                  > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
                  > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
                  > > the answers.
                  > >
                  > > Namaste
                  > >
                  > > Ma-li
                  > >
                  >


                • Ma-li
                  Hi Prometheus,   Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable comments.  I do appreciate them, and can relate to what you said.   I too wanted to believe
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Prometheus,
                     
                    Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable comments.  I do appreciate them, and can relate to what you said.
                     
                    I too wanted to believe all the malarky that was being fed to me, and had problems buying into what HK was saying.  As Eckankar evolved/devolved under HK, it seemed to be leaving me with an empty feeling.  I could get the same stories from any 5th grader.  I made that comment to another Eckist, and was told HK had to make it simpler for those just "coming in".  If those "coming in" were supposed to be already more spiritually advanced than those of us who had been there a long time, then why dumb it down.  Just one more thing that didn't set well with me.
                     
                    As for the spiritual exercises, apparently I didn't do them in an acceptable manner, but that was the way that was comfortable to me.  I haven't done them in quite a while now, and eventually will invent my own means of doing spiritual contemplation, if need be.  I spend a lot of time in Nature....gonna go out on a limb here and tell you that my entire life has been involved with helping animals in need...from the newborn to the ancient with special needs that require almost constant care.  I learned more about love from these animals than I ever did from HK, and feel blessed to have been given so much unconditional love and trust by beings usually untrusting of humans.  As each one passed over, it broke my heart, but I knew they were in a better place.  At least they had experienced love on this plane, and I'm sure it helped their Soul progression too. They were as close to me as my own heartbeat, and still are even tho' they have gone.
                     
                    By giving up this spiritual path, I feel more free to be me, and to know and love all life whatever the form.  Still have to work on the rattlesnakes and flies however. lol
                     
                    I think I bought into Eckankar for as long as I did because it seemed like the right thing to do at the time.  As the dis-satisfatico grew, I knew I had to be true to myself first and foremost.  Maybe it was the challenge of attaining initiations, I'm not certain.  I just know that somewhere along the line they ceased to matter, and my eyes were opening to see more about the spiritual path I was on. Didn't like what I saw, but didn't know how to get off the path.   I have done lots of "outside" reading over the years, and that has been instrumental in my eyes being opened.  Then there was that little sticking point that has always galled me........needing a mediator to connect with God.  If I didn't believe priests, ministers etc. could do it,  why should the Mahanta be any different???  There was no difference, and I finally "saw the light".
                     
                    My test has been taken, and I've completed it long before the others.  I have no doubts, and don't need to recheck my answers.  I won't sit around and wait for the others to finish, but will walk out the door into a world of fun, love, joy, and totally of my making.  I am the captain of my own ship now, and feel certain I will attain whatever spiritual goals I set for myself.
                     
                    I have been feeling guilty about not feeling guilty about leaving Eckankar.  It was guilt that had me wondering what to do next.  Now, thanks to all the wonderful posts by you, etznab, aftrek, mish, the guilt has gone away.  You all took the plunge with your eyes wide open, went thru the "what now" period, and emerged on the other side as full, complete human beings in charge of your own destinies.  May I join your ranks? 


                    --- On Thu, 12/4/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:26 PM

                    Hello Ma-li,
                    I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                    thing I can't recommend anything to
                    read, but I find many of the resources
                    listed on this site to be interesting.

                    As far as believing these and other sources
                    of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                    and everything by the so called "experts." I
                    definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                    seems to be selling something for one reason
                    or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                    subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

                    Ma-li wrote:
                    [snip]
                    "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                    handled it when you decided to leave, and
                    especially what did you do about the spiritual
                    exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                    Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                    writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                    left but God?"

                    *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                    many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                    sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                    it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                    and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                    every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                    opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                    one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                    I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                    my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                    believable to others.

                    However, I've always known and had proof of
                    Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                    I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                    of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                    and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                    amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                    or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                    long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                    because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                    in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                    HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                    can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
                    Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                    the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                    up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                    new is it?

                    "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                    beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                    the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                    the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                    warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                    IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                    the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                    IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

                    *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                    and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                    observing Nature is very contemplative and
                    peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                    The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                    and beyond and into other times as does reading
                    about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                    know about how we became who we are and
                    what we think we are in order to know more
                    about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

                    "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                    about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
                    from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                    and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                    If someone would care to share their experiences
                    and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                    can use my private email if you'd prefer."

                    *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                    Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                    buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                    because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                    Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                    giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                    I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                    give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                    after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                    I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                    and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                    many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                    a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                    me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                    reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                    same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

                    [snip]
                    Ma-li (also) wrote:
                    "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                    working until he's got himself almost convinced
                    he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                    to go back and change answers because he also
                    feels he did the best he could.

                    What does he do to fill the empty space?"

                    *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                    (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                    it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                    Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                    middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                    Masters in the making.

                    When one follows another they give up their ability
                    to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                    give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                    a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                    Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                    Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                    No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

                    Prometheus



                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Ma-li, It appears that you have already joined our ranks! You sound like an old friend where the passage of time and space becomes irrelevant to the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Ma-li,
                      It appears that you have already joined
                      our ranks! You sound like an old friend
                      where the passage of time and space
                      becomes irrelevant to the friendship,
                      the journey, and to the connection of Soul.

                      I enjoyed reading of your experiences
                      and insights too. Yes, I too have mixed
                      feelings about flies and rattlesnakes.
                      I usually give them fair warning first and
                      offer them an out before taking preventative
                      (extreme) measures. The thing is it startles
                      me, at times, when other (friendly) snakes
                      sneak up on me, or I "discover" them. It's
                      actually kind of funny, but I scold them
                      for scaring me or for me scaring myself!

                      Prometheus


                      Ma-li wrote:
                      Hi Prometheus,

                      Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable
                      comments. I do appreciate them, and can relate
                      to what you said.

                      I too wanted to believe all the malarky that was
                      being fed to me, and had problems buying into
                      what HK was saying. As Eckankar evolved/devolved
                      under HK, it seemed to be leaving me with an empty
                      feeling. I could get the same stories from any 5th
                      grader. I made that comment to another Eckist,
                      and was told HK had to make it simpler for those
                      just "coming in". If those "coming in" were supposed
                      to be already more spiritually advanced than those
                      of us who had been there a long time, then why
                      dumb it down. Just one more thing that didn't set
                      well with me.

                      As for the spiritual exercises, apparently I didn't
                      do them in an acceptable manner, but that was
                      the way that was comfortable to me. I haven't
                      done them in quite a while now, and eventually
                      will invent my own means of doing spiritual
                      contemplation, if need be. I spend a lot of time
                      in Nature....gonna go out on a limb here and tell
                      you that my entire life has been involved with
                      helping animals in need...from the newborn to
                      the ancient with special needs that require almost
                      constant care. I learned more about love from
                      these animals than I ever did from HK, and feel
                      blessed to have been given so much unconditional
                      love and trust by beings usually untrusting of humans.
                      As each one passed over, it broke my heart, but
                      I knew they were in a better place. At least they
                      had experienced love on this plane, and I'm sure
                      it helped their Soul progression too. They were as
                      close to me as my own heartbeat, and still are even
                      tho' they have gone.

                      By giving up this spiritual path, I feel more free
                      to be me, and to know and love all life whatever
                      the form. Still have to work on the rattlesnakes
                      and flies however. lol

                      I think I bought into Eckankar for as long as I did
                      because it seemed like the right thing to do at the
                      time. As the dis-satisfatico grew, I knew I had to
                      be true to myself first and foremost. Maybe it was
                      the challenge of attaining initiations, I'm not certain.
                      I just know that somewhere along the line they ceased
                      to matter, and my eyes were opening to see more
                      about the spiritual path I was on. Didn't like what
                      I saw, but didn't know how to get off the path.
                      I have done lots of "outside" reading over the years,
                      and that has been instrumental in my eyes being
                      opened. Then there was that little sticking point
                      that has always galled me........needing a mediator
                      to connect with God. If I didn't believe priests,
                      ministers etc. could do it, why should the Mahanta
                      be any different??? There was no difference, and
                      I finally "saw the light".

                      My test has been taken, and I've completed it long
                      before the others. I have no doubts, and don't need
                      to recheck my answers. I won't sit around and wait
                      for the others to finish, but will walk out the door
                      into a world of fun, love, joy, and totally of my making.
                      I am the captain of my own ship now, and feel certain
                      I will attain whatever spiritual goals I set for myself.

                      I have been feeling guilty about not feeling guilty
                      about leaving Eckankar. It was guilt that had me
                      wondering what to do next. Now, thanks to all the
                      wonderful posts by you, etznab, aftrek, mish, the
                      guilt has gone away. You all took the plunge with
                      your eyes wide open, went thru the "what now"
                      period, and emerged on the other side as full,
                      complete human beings in charge of your own
                      destinies. May I join your ranks?

                      ************************************************
                      prometheus wrote:

                      Hello Ma-li,
                      I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                      thing I can't recommend anything to
                      read, but I find many of the resources
                      listed on this site to be interesting.

                      As far as believing these and other sources
                      of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                      and everything by the so called "experts." I
                      definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                      seems to be selling something for one reason
                      or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                      subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

                      Ma-li wrote:
                      [snip]
                      "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                      handled it when you decided to leave, and
                      especially what did you do about the spiritual
                      exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                      Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                      writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                      left but God?"

                      *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                      many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                      sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                      it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                      and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                      every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                      opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                      one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                      I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                      my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                      believable to others.

                      However, I've always known and had proof of
                      Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                      I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                      of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                      and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                      amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                      or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                      long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                      because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                      in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                      HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                      can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
                      Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                      the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                      up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                      new is it?

                      "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                      beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                      the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                      the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                      warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                      IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                      the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                      IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

                      *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                      and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                      observing Nature is very contemplative and
                      peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                      The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                      and beyond and into other times as does reading
                      about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                      know about how we became who we are and
                      what we think we are in order to know more
                      about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

                      "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                      about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
                      from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                      and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                      If someone would care to share their experiences
                      and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                      can use my private email if you'd prefer."

                      *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                      Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                      buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                      because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                      Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                      giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                      I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                      give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                      after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                      I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                      and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                      many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                      a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                      me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                      reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                      same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

                      [snip]
                      Ma-li (also) wrote:
                      "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                      working until he's got himself almost convinced
                      he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                      to go back and change answers because he also
                      feels he did the best he could.

                      What does he do to fill the empty space?"

                      *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                      (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                      it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                      Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                      middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                      Masters in the making.

                      When one follows another they give up their ability
                      to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                      give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                      a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                      Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                      Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                      No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

                      Prometheus
                    • drubezarne
                      Hi Leanne, I think Ford s statements about Hu and Aum might be valid here. In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson, he says... I would ven­ture that
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 7, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Leanne, I think Ford's statements about Hu and Aum might be valid here.

                        In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson, he says...

                        "I would ven­ture that God has no pref­er­ence and al­so that all
                        sounds and words are part of ALL THAT IS, and serve equal­ly well in
                        gar­ner­ing God's at­ten­tion."

                        and...

                        "The im­por­tant point is that all sounds or mantras can en­able the
                        in­di­vid­ual to tran­scend the phys­ical di­men­sion and
                        ex­pe­ri­ence the ec­stat­ic states and the in­ner planes...They all
                        work and can en­able the in­divid­ual to hear the re­mark­able and
                        awe-in­spir­ing sounds of the in­ner worlds. As­crib­ing greater
                        mag­ic to one sound or mantra over an­oth­er is much like ar­gu­ing
                        whose God is great­est. It is a mean­ing­less de­bate for ev­ery­thing
                        is part of the ONE. Fur­ther, when the prac­ti­tion­er has had some
                        ex­pe­ri­ence with these mantras and the in­ner ex­pe­ri­ences that
                        follow, she will come to the re­al­iza­tion that these are not
                        out­side sounds; they are a part of her."

                        and...

                        "The Va­lid­ity of Spir­itu­al Ex­er­cis­es. The ba­sic spir­itu­al
                        ex­er­cise of Eck, which Paul called "the easy way," is al­so the
                        ba­sic ex­er­cise of the Shabd Yo­ga tra­di­tion, and, as such,
                        car­ries with it the in­trin­sic va­lid­ity of this prac­tice in the
                        Yo­ga tradi­tion. In these teach­ings, the HU is sung "Hooooooo,"
                        where­as in Eck­ankar, it is sung "Hu­uu­uu­uuu" or "hugh" — Paul's
                        ef­fort to make it unique. The dif­fer­ence is of no re­al
                        sig­nif­icance. Each sound will work and should be con­tin­ued if it
                        works for you."

                        As to Ek Onkar; it is a Sikh term that means "God is One." Julian
                        Johnson's Path of the Masters mentions it. If you downloaded the .pdf
                        book, you can do a search for it in Acrobat.

                        Regards,
                        Liska

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Leanne Thompson
                        <le_anne_thompson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Does anyone still HU now that they left eckankar? I use HU-OM or
                        other sanskrit words.
                        >  
                        > BTW in a book of meditation by yogi bhajan I found EK OM KAR. I
                        think it was a mantra or something like  that. Has anyone heard of that?
                        >  
                        > Thanks
                        > Leanne
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Liska and All, It s interesting that Ford said, They all work and can enable the individual to hear the remarkable and awe-inspiring sounds of the INNER
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 7, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Liska and All,
                          It's interesting that Ford said,
                          "They all work and can enable
                          the individual to hear the remarkable
                          and awe-inspiring sounds of the INNER
                          WORLDS. Ascribing greater MAGIC to
                          one sound or mantra over another is
                          much like arguing whose God is greatest."
                          [MY CAPS]

                          So, is Ford saying that these are Magical
                          sounds/mantras that have "intrinsic validity."
                          Isn't that a contradiction of terms? Or, is
                          he saying that most people see these as
                          magical words/sounds, but that these
                          have "intrinsic validity" in Shabd Yoga?
                          However, does Shabd Yoga have validity?
                          How much or with what? BTW- I wonder
                          which planes or "inner worlds" Ford was
                          referring to?

                          IMO it does seem that there is something
                          different with the vibratory rate of this
                          sound/mantra (HU) that makes it more
                          unique than the other (AUM), or Not!
                          Perhaps there are Universal sounds/mantras,
                          as well as, more specific ones that match
                          or enhance each person's/Soul's vibratory
                          rate of consciousness. And, this is why one
                          sound works better for one person than with
                          another person.

                          The other quote you gave by Ford was:

                          "The Validity of Spiritual Exercises.

                          The basic spiritual exercise of Eck, which Paul
                          called "the easy way," is also the basic exercise
                          of the Shabd Yoga tradition, and, as such, carries
                          with it the INTRINSIC VALIDITY of this practice
                          in the Yoga tradition. In these teachings, the
                          HU is sung "Hooooooo," where as in Eckankar,
                          it is sung "Huuuuuuu" or "hugh." [MY CAPS]

                          Personally, I often have trouble accepting any
                          promises and beliefs from any religion as valid
                          and, especially, from those religions that have
                          "Living Masters" who have set themselves up as
                          Masters/Godmen/Saviours/Prophets.

                          It is interesting about the HU being sung as
                          "Hooooooo" (who) and "Huuuuuuu" (hue/hugh).

                          I knew ECKists who would sing HU as "Hooooooo"
                          (who)! It was very strange and they sang loud!!!
                          I never did ask them why they did this, but they
                          believed they were part of Harry's inner (Inner)
                          Circle and were more special than most of his
                          RESAs. They had a small following at the major
                          EK Seminars and were very aloof towards the
                          RESA structure and toward rules and guidelines
                          in general. They usually ignored these or acted
                          As If they had no knowledge of these ESC approved
                          procedures. Delusion runs rampant in ECKankar!

                          Prometheus



                          Liska wrote:
                          Hi Leanne, I think Ford's statements about
                          Hu and Aum might be valid here.

                          In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson,
                          he says...

                          "I would venture that God has no preference
                          and also that all sounds and words are part
                          of ALL THAT IS, and serve equally well in
                          garnering God's attention."

                          and...

                          "The important point is that all sounds or
                          mantras can enable the individual to transcend
                          the physical dimension and experience the
                          ecstatic states and the inner planes... They
                          all work and can enable the individual to hear
                          the remarkable and awe-inspiring sounds
                          of the inner worlds. Ascribing greater magic
                          to one sound or mantra over another is much
                          like arguing whose God is greatest. It is a
                          meaningless debate for everything is part of
                          the ONE. Further, when the practitioner has
                          had some experience with these mantras and
                          the inner experiences that follow, she will
                          come to the realization that these are not
                          outside sounds; they are a part of her."

                          and...

                          "The Validity of Spiritual Exercises. The basic
                          spiritual exercise of Eck, which Paul called
                          "the easy way," is also the basic exercise of
                          the Shabd Yoga tradition, and, as such, carries
                          with it the INTRINSIC VALIDITY of this practice
                          in the Yoga tradition. In these teachings, the
                          HU is sung "Hooooooo," where as in Eckankar,
                          it is sung "Huuuuuuuu" or "hugh" — Paul's
                          effort to make it unique. The difference is of
                          no real significance. Each sound will work and
                          should be continued if it works for you."

                          ME: [My Caps]

                          As to Ek Onkar; it is a Sikh term that means
                          "God is One." Julian Johnson's Path of the Masters
                          mentions it. If you downloaded the .pdf
                          book, you can do a search for it in Acrobat.

                          Regards,
                          Liska


                          Leanne wrote:

                          Does anyone still HU now that they left eckankar?
                          I use HU-OM or other sanskrit words.

                          BTW in a book of meditation by yogi bhajan I found
                          EK OM KAR. I think it was a mantra or something like
                          that. Has anyone heard of that?

                          Thanks
                          Leanne
                          >
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.