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Re: What now?

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  • drubezarne
    Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about Eckankar s charlatans and other frauds who want to act as intermediaries between God and Soul.
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
      Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about
      Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as
      intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning
      your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.

      When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere
      in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden
      thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the
      limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to
      imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem
      honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or
      boost their egos.

      I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For
      example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in
      meditation/contemplation. On the inner planes, thinking and
      visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when
      assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because
      they are no longer necessary.

      The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance
      state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the
      body and moving the consciousness beyond physical awareness. However,
      I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to
      place my attention on the formless.

      Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of
      the best explanations for our existence.

      By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books
      and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's
      books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book
      motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.

      My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's
      works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day
      mundane existence.

      I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to
      learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is
      there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role
      is to practice and develop my own style of playing.

      All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I
      don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all
      spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I
      don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking
      Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the
      extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore
      and test before declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for
      one reason or another."

      Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select
      individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke
      up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think
      selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.

      Regards
      Liska

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Ma-li,
      > I thought I'd respond as well. For one
      > thing I can't recommend anything to
      > read, but I find many of the resources
      > listed on this site to be interesting.
      >
      > As far as believing these and other sources
      > of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
      > and everything by the so called "experts." I
      > definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
      > seems to be selling something for one reason
      > or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
      > subjective, and is found within by each Soul.
      >
      >
      >
      > Ma-li wrote:
      > [snip]
      > "Would anyone like to share with me how you
      > handled it when you decided to leave, and
      > especially what did you do about the spiritual
      > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
      > Eck Masters never really existed, except in
      > writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
      > left but God?"
      >
      >
      >
      > *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
      > many things in ECKankar just didn't make
      > sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
      > it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
      > and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
      > every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
      > opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
      > one dimensional stories didn't help either.
      > I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
      > my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
      > believable to others.
      >
      > However, I've always known and had proof of
      > Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
      > I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
      > of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
      > and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
      > amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
      > or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
      > long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
      > because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
      > in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
      > HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
      > can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
      > Contentment that I could never achieve while under
      > the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
      > up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
      > new is it?
      >
      >
      >
      > "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
      > beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
      > the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
      > the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
      > warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
      > IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
      > the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
      > IT IS ME, and I AM IT."
      >
      >
      >
      > *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
      > and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
      > observing Nature is very contemplative and
      > peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
      > The past tunes take one back to one's youth
      > and beyond and into other times as does reading
      > about or watching history on TV. It's good to
      > know about how we became who we are and
      > what we think we are in order to know more
      > about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.
      >
      >
      >
      > "All this being said, I don't know what to do
      > about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
      > from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
      > and need to make a choice about what to do next.
      > If someone would care to share their experiences
      > and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
      > can use my private email if you'd prefer."
      >
      >
      >
      > *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
      > Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
      > buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
      > because of friends and/or the promise of God-
      > Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
      > giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
      > I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
      > give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
      > after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
      > I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
      > and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
      > many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
      > a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
      > me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
      > reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
      > same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [snip]
      > Ma-li (also) wrote:
      > "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
      > working until he's got himself almost convinced
      > he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
      > to go back and change answers because he also
      > feels he did the best he could.
      >
      > What does he do to fill the empty space?"
      >
      >
      >
      > *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
      > (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
      > it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
      > Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
      > middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
      > Masters in the making.
      >
      > When one follows another they give up their ability
      > to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
      > give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
      > a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
      > Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
      > Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
      > No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • etznab@aol.com
      All this being said, I don t know what to do about spiritual exercises, or how to progress from here. It s like I m standing alone once again, and need to
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
        "All this being said, I don't know what to do
        about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
        from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
        and need to make a choice about what to do next.
        If someone would care to share their experiences
        and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
        can use my private email if you'd prefer."

        Ma-Li,

        I still think one can ask their questions and the
        "universe" will answer.

        Do you like to read books? This is where I get a
        lot of answers to my questions.

        There is this book, with a tacky looking cover &
        a tacky sounding name. Inside the cover though, I
        found it to be anything but tacky. It's called: Punk
        Science, Inside the Mind of God, by Dr. Manjir
        Samanta-Laughton. I saw a book review for it in an
        HCS Newsletter some time ago. Just read it again
        for about the third time.

        Maybe you have another way for connecting and
        receiving guidance from the universe. I'd say follow
        that. Take some initiative and don't give up. See
        what comes.

        This is what impressed me the most about what
        were in the teachings of Eckankar. That I didn't
        have to wait around & depend on other people for
        the answers to everything. Of course, if you depend
        on organized religion for all the answers it could be
        a long wait, IMO. In my experience it was always a
        form of "giving up initiative" - just plain giving up per-
        iod! that left
        me feeling helpless and dependent on
        some invisible "God" as if it were separate from my-
        self that I had to wait around for. That was the real
        bummer for me.

        I would say try what you know works for you. If
        the old methods do not work anymore then initiate
        something new. Don't feel you have to share what
        methods work for you either, or whether they are
        approved of and / or work for other people that you
        know. Find what works for you. That would be my
        advice. If you have a hobby, or something that you
        love to do, maybe explore that.

        Years ago, after I lost something that I loved very
        much, I realized that I had to replace it with some-
        thing in order to fill the void. I invested in another
        love of mine. One that I had since my youth. I had
        a love for words, and for poetry. So I explored the
        subject of words. I put a lot of time into that and it
        grew and grew into something bigger. It took me in-
        to other areas that I loved just as much, like history
        in general. Ancient history, history of religions and
        the history of words became my new friends and I
        got to know them better and better over the years.
        For some reason this is what I love to do. I can do
        it for hours on end and it doesn't feel like "work", if
        you know what I mean. I don't get paid a dollar for
        it either, but it brings a lot of satisfaction because, I
        think, whenever a person develops a talent=2
        0& moves
        in the direction of mastership toward something it
        puts them in a position of being more self sufficient
        and less dependent on others. It also gives them a
        gift that they can share with others. IMO.

        Don't know if this helps, but maybe something
        to consider at least. If in the future, after you find
        something that helps, if it's something you would
        like to share (if you choose) then maybe it could
        be posted here and it will help somebody else in
        a similar situation.

        I know that, for myself, I still feel other voids
        which need to be filled. Every time I find something
        that doesn't work the same (or not at all) anymore
        it leaves a kind of void and I have to do something
        about it. Maybe nothing has to be done, in every
        case, but I'd suspect that most people eventually
        learn to find something better than what they had
        before.

        This is kinda long already. Sorry for the length.

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:26 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?



        Hello Ma-li,

        I thought I'd respond as well. For one

        thing I can't recommend anything to

        read, but I find many of the resources

        listed on this site to be interesting.



        As far as believing these and other sources

        of info I don't! It's too easily to accept20anything

        and everything by the so called "experts." I

        definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone

        seems to be selling something for one reason

        or another. The Truth is out there, is usually

        subjective, and is found within by each Soul.



        Ma-li wrote:

        [snip]

        "Would anyone like to share with me how you

        handled it when you decided to leave, and

        especially what did you do about the spiritual

        exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the

        Eck Masters never really existed, except in

        writers' fertile minds, then who/what is

        left but God?"



        *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that

        many things in ECKankar just didn't make

        sense and didn't add up even though I wanted

        it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,

        and in the initiations but it was getting tougher

        every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s

        opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and

        one dimensional stories didn't help either.

        I found that I had to put blinders on and hold

        my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound

        believable to others.



        However, I've always known and had proof of

        Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).

        I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How

        of many specifics outside of my realm of experience

        and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk0D

        amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises

        or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many

        long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises

        because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking

        in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still

        HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I

        can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a

        Contentment that I could never achieve while under

        the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give

        up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing

        new is it?



        "God has always been the "real" aspect of my

        beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,

        the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,

        the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the

        warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.

        IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for

        the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.

        IT IS ME, and I AM IT."



        *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside

        and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and

        observing Nature is very contemplative and

        peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!

        The past tunes take one back to one's youth

        and beyond and into other times as does reading

        about or watching history on TV. It's good to

        know about how we became who we are and

        what we think we are in order to kno
        w more

        about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.



        "All this being said, I don't know what to do

        about spiritual exercises, or how to progress

        from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,

        and need to make a choice about what to do next.

        If someone would care to share their experiences

        and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You

        can use my private email if you'd prefer."



        *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.

        Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you

        buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it

        because of friends and/or the promise of God-

        Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble

        giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.

        I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would

        give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies

        after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after

        I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together

        and I saw the con and the realized why there were so

        many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or

        a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to

        me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my

        reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the

        same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!



        [snip]

        Ma-li (also) wrote:

        "...Then the doubts and mental processes beg
        in

        working until he's got himself almost convinced

        he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want

        to go back and change answers because he also

        feels he did the best he could.



        What does he do to fill the empty space?"



        *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time

        (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole

        it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!

        Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'

        middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own

        Masters in the making.



        When one follows another they give up their ability

        to choose and to discover their own Truth. They

        give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need

        a religion to believe in when they can't believe in

        Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in

        Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.

        No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.



        Prometheus



















        =0
        A
      • etznab@aol.com
        Mish, I probably shoulda read all the threads for today first, before responding to Ma-Li. I think if I had read your response first, I probably would have
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
          Mish,

          I probably shoulda read all the threads for today
          first, before responding to Ma-Li. I think if I had read
          your response first, I probably would have said much
          less myself. It sounded like some good advice to me.
          What you shared, Mish.

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 9:16 am
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?



          Hello Ma-li!



          I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces,

          what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in

          one hour, reminded me of my college days! Actually, I

          remember a few occasions when taking an exam that I

          did actually finish quite early . . . and I remember some

          self-doubts about why I finished it so quickly while others

          were still laboring over the exam. What did I do?? I turned

          the exam in and left the room! And then I did sort of a

          happy dance outside, glad to be free of that exam room . . .

          and how did I do? Well, I did quite well, because I had

          aced those exams, and I was free to go on to the next

          thing . . . and being a college student, I remember heading

          to the beach with some friends for one time and having so

          much fun. Can't quite remember on the other occasions, but

          if it was just before school break, I probably got an early


          start for home! So I guess my message is to trust yourself! : )



          Empty spaces are a luxury really, but they often come at a

          hard time, so there can be the feeling of loss . . . and we

          want to quickly fill it up again with something else. I think

          it is good to just take one's time and find things that are of

          interest. I remember one time in my life when I had to sort

          of re-invent myself. Every morning I'd ask myself what it

          was that I wanted and needed to do with my life to make

          myself happy. Happiness is so essential--it is not selfish to

          want to seek this IMO. My goals had to be reasonable and

          attainable goals--that was one stipulation I placed on myself.

          I finally defined what it was I wanted and wanted to do and

          then I looked for the ways to accomplish it all, one by one.



          I guess what I'm saying you have to ask yourself what it is

          you need and then find the ways to have it. But take your

          time and enjoy the freedom of those empty spaces because

          they allow you freedom for introspection which is needed to

          take the next steps--all by your own choices and decisions!



          Good luck! And I'd like to offer a couple of books for reading

          as well. One member of our site who left eckankar after 30

          years found Jed McKenna's book "Spiritual Enlightenment, the

          Damnest Thing" to greatly help her to handle
          the void. She

          still says it is the best book! I also like Sam Harris' book "The

          End of Faith", and also enjoyed Bill Moyers TV series on "On Faith

          and Reason" to be quite valuable. You can google for the Bill

          Moyers series to find and read the transcripts.



          Mish



          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li
          <mhstarlings@...> wrote:

          >

          > Hello Non ekster et al,

          >  

          > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like
          I'm living in the Now all

          the time. However, on another level, I think/feel that I should be
          doing/being something

          more than just being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it
          to the student who

          finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for the other 2
          hours...just sit there

          quietly, leave the room, or go back over the test yet again?  He's in a
          quandry, and it

          doesn't feel right that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental
          processes begin

          working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up
          the test, but he

          doesn't want to go back and change answers because he also feels he did
          the best he

          could.  What does he do to fill the empty space?

          >  

          > Namaste

          >  

          > Ma-li

          >

          > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@...> wrote:


          >

          > From: Non ekster <eckchains@...>

          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?

          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

          > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.

          >

          > Non ekster ; )

          >

          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"

          > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:

          > >

          > > Hello All,

          > >

          > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined

          > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years
          of Eck

          > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years
          ago.

          > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about

          > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find
          answers,

          > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.

          > >

          > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when
          you

          > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the
          spiritual

          > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters
          never

          > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then
          who/what is

          > > left but God?

          > >

          > > God has
          always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in

          > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the
          four-

          > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
          warm

          > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that
          gives

          > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in

          > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.

          > >

          > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual

          > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm
          standing

          > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do
          next.

          > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices
          from

          > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email
          if

          > > you'd prefer.

          > >

          > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much
          Prometheus for

          > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they
          search for

          > > the answers.

          > >

          > > Namaste

          > >

          > > Ma-li

          > >

          >
        • etznab@aol.com
          My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people s works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day mundane existence. I
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
            "My primary goal is personal experience,
            but reading other people's works helps focus
            my attention on something greater than day
            to day mundane existence."

            I agree that a lot can be learned from
            others, while at the same time I suspect
            there is a not so well noticed connection
            between how people search and what they
            actually find.

            What I mean to say is that I believe one's
            paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
            happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
            replaced by another. A better one. Because
            the former seems to become old and like all
            the juice squeezed out of the lemon.

            Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
            seem to leave the same old, same old over
            and over like a broken record.

            This is one of the traps I have found myself
            in time and time again. By limiting myself to
            only certain specific paradigms, listening and
            reading only certain specific authors and then
            thinking along only certain specific lines.

            I like to meet a variety of different people &
            hear about a variety of different experiences.
            In fact, I think if one would consider how many
            different people there are in the world, and that
            much potential for experience were available to
            them, it might not sound too impossible how
            one part of the "universe" could answer another
            part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
            ships.

            Etznab

            -----Original Message-----
            From: drubezarn
            e <drubezarne@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?



            Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about

            Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as

            intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning

            your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.



            When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere

            in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden

            thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the

            limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to

            imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem

            honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or

            boost their egos.



            I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For

            example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in

            meditation/contemplation. On the inner planes, thinking and

            visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when

            assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because

            they are no longer necessary.



            The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance

            state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the

            body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
            wareness. However,

            I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to

            place my attention on the formless.



            Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of

            the best explanations for our existence.



            By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books

            and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's

            books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book

            motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.



            My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's

            works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day

            mundane existence.



            I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to

            learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is

            there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role

            is to practice and develop my own style of playing.



            All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I

            don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all

            spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I

            don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking

            Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the

            extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore

            and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for

            one reason or another."



            Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select

            individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke

            up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think

            selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.



            Regards

            Liska



            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"

            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

            >

            > Hello Ma-li,

            > I thought I'd respond as well. For one

            > thing I can't recommend anything to

            > read, but I find many of the resources

            > listed on this site to be interesting.

            >

            > As far as believing these and other sources

            > of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything

            > and everything by the so called "experts." I

            > definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone

            > seems to be selling something for one reason

            > or another. The Truth is out there, is usually

            > subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

            >

            >

            >

            > Ma-li wrote:

            > [snip]

            > "Would anyone like to share with me how you

            > handled it when you decided to leave, and

            > especially what did you do about the spiritual

            > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the

            >
            ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in

            > writers' fertile minds, then who/what is

            > left but God?"

            >

            >

            >

            > *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that

            > many things in ECKankar just didn't make

            > sense and didn't add up even though I wanted

            > it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,

            > and in the initiations but it was getting tougher

            > every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s

            > opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and

            > one dimensional stories didn't help either.

            > I found that I had to put blinders on and hold

            > my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound

            > believable to others.

            >

            > However, I've always known and had proof of

            > Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).

            > I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How

            > of many specifics outside of my realm of experience

            > and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk

            > amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises

            > or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many

            > long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises

            > because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking

            > in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still

            > HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I

            > can experience a
            Oneness with All There Is and a

            > Contentment that I could never achieve while under

            > the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give

            > up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing

            > new is it?

            >

            >

            >

            > "God has always been the "real" aspect of my

            > beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,

            > the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,

            > the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the

            > warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.

            > IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for

            > the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.

            > IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

            >

            >

            >

            > *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside

            > and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and

            > observing Nature is very contemplative and

            > peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!

            > The past tunes take one back to one's youth

            > and beyond and into other times as does reading

            > about or watching history on TV. It's good to

            > know about how we became who we are and

            > what we think we are in order to know more

            > about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

            >

            >

            >

            > "All this being said, I don't know what to do

            > about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
            s

            > from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,

            > and need to make a choice about what to do next.

            > If someone would care to share their experiences

            > and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You

            > can use my private email if you'd prefer."

            >

            >

            >

            > *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.

            > Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you

            > buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it

            > because of friends and/or the promise of God-

            > Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble

            > giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.

            > I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would

            > give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies

            > after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after

            > I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together

            > and I saw the con and the realized why there were so

            > many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or

            > a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to

            > me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my

            > reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the

            > same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

            >

            >

            >

            >

            > [snip]

            > Ma-li (also) wrote:

            > "...Then the doubts
            and mental processes begin

            > working until he's got himself almost convinced

            > he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want

            > to go back and change answers because he also

            > feels he did the best he could.

            >

            > What does he do to fill the empty space?"

            >

            >

            >

            > *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time

            > (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole

            > it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!

            > Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'

            > middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own

            > Masters in the making.

            >

            > When one follows another they give up their ability

            > to choose and to discover their own Truth. They

            > give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need

            > a religion to believe in when they can't believe in

            > Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in

            > Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.

            > No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

            >

            > Prometheus

            >
          • drubezarne
            Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said below... I agree that a lot can be learned from others, while at the same time I
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
              Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said
              below...

              "I agree that a lot can be learned from
              others, while at the same time I suspect
              there is a not so well noticed connection
              between how people search and what they
              actually find.

              What I mean to say is that I believe one's
              paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
              happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
              replaced by another. A better one. Because
              the former seems to become old and like all
              the juice squeezed out of the lemon."

              Due to the temporary nature of this world and everything in it, all
              things have their place and value in time. As individual consciousness
              evolves, old concepts no longer fit and the Soul moves on to newer and
              greater horizons. It's what we all did when we rejected the idea of an
              infallible master. I myself, realized that there is only God - Soul
              and nothing in-between. Anyone who declares themselves an intermediary
              between God and Soul is a fraud.

              Regards
              Liska

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > "My primary goal is personal experience,
              > but reading other people's works helps focus
              > my attention on something greater than day
              > to day mundane existence."
              >
              > I agree that a lot can be learned from
              > others, while at the same time I suspect
              > there is a not so well noticed connection
              > between how people search and what they
              > actually find.
              >
              > What I mean to say is that I believe one's
              > paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
              > happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
              > replaced by another. A better one. Because
              > the former seems to become old and like all
              > the juice squeezed out of the lemon.
              >
              > Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
              > seem to leave the same old, same old over
              > and over like a broken record.
              >
              > This is one of the traps I have found myself
              > in time and time again. By limiting myself to
              > only certain specific paradigms, listening and
              > reading only certain specific authors and then
              > thinking along only certain specific lines.
              >
              > I like to meet a variety of different people &
              > hear about a variety of different experiences.
              > In fact, I think if one would consider how many
              > different people there are in the world, and that
              > much potential for experience were available to
              > them, it might not sound too impossible how
              > one part of the "universe" could answer another
              > part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
              > ships.
              >
              > Etznab
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: drubezarn
              > e <drubezarne@...>
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
              >
              >
              >
              > Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about
              >
              > Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as
              >
              > intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning
              >
              > your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.
              >
              >
              >
              > When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere
              >
              > in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden
              >
              > thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the
              >
              > limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to
              >
              > imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem
              >
              > honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or
              >
              > boost their egos.
              >
              >
              >
              > I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For
              >
              > example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in
              >
              > meditation/contemplation. On the inner planes, thinking and
              >
              > visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when
              >
              > assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because
              >
              > they are no longer necessary.
              >
              >
              >
              > The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance
              >
              > state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the
              >
              > body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
              > wareness. However,
              >
              > I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to
              >
              > place my attention on the formless.
              >
              >
              >
              > Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of
              >
              > the best explanations for our existence.
              >
              >
              >
              > By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books
              >
              > and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's
              >
              > books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book
              >
              > motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.
              >
              >
              >
              > My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's
              >
              > works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day
              >
              > mundane existence.
              >
              >
              >
              > I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to
              >
              > learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is
              >
              > there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role
              >
              > is to practice and develop my own style of playing.
              >
              >
              >
              > All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I
              >
              > don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all
              >
              > spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I
              >
              > don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking
              >
              > Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the
              >
              > extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore
              >
              > and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for
              >
              > one reason or another."
              >
              >
              >
              > Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select
              >
              > individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke
              >
              > up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think
              >
              > selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.
              >
              >
              >
              > Regards
              >
              > Liska
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              >
              > prometheus_973@ wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Hello Ma-li,
              >
              > > I thought I'd respond as well. For one
              >
              > > thing I can't recommend anything to
              >
              > > read, but I find many of the resources
              >
              > > listed on this site to be interesting.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > As far as believing these and other sources
              >
              > > of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
              >
              > > and everything by the so called "experts." I
              >
              > > definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
              >
              > > seems to be selling something for one reason
              >
              > > or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
              >
              > > subjective, and is found within by each Soul.
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Ma-li wrote:
              >
              > > [snip]
              >
              > > "Would anyone like to share with me how you
              >
              > > handled it when you decided to leave, and
              >
              > > especially what did you do about the spiritual
              >
              > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
              >
              > >
              > ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in
              >
              > > writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
              >
              > > left but God?"
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
              >
              > > many things in ECKankar just didn't make
              >
              > > sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
              >
              > > it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
              >
              > > and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
              >
              > > every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
              >
              > > opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
              >
              > > one dimensional stories didn't help either.
              >
              > > I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
              >
              > > my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
              >
              > > believable to others.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > However, I've always known and had proof of
              >
              > > Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
              >
              > > I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
              >
              > > of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
              >
              > > and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
              >
              > > amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
              >
              > > or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
              >
              > > long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
              >
              > > because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
              >
              > > in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
              >
              > > HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
              >
              > > can experience a
              > Oneness with All There Is and a
              >
              > > Contentment that I could never achieve while under
              >
              > > the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
              >
              > > up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
              >
              > > new is it?
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
              >
              > > beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
              >
              > > the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
              >
              > > the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
              >
              > > warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
              >
              > > IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
              >
              > > the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
              >
              > > IT IS ME, and I AM IT."
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
              >
              > > and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
              >
              > > observing Nature is very contemplative and
              >
              > > peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
              >
              > > The past tunes take one back to one's youth
              >
              > > and beyond and into other times as does reading
              >
              > > about or watching history on TV. It's good to
              >
              > > know about how we became who we are and
              >
              > > what we think we are in order to know more
              >
              > > about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > "All this being said, I don't know what to do
              >
              > > about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
              > s
              >
              > > from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
              >
              > > and need to make a choice about what to do next.
              >
              > > If someone would care to share their experiences
              >
              > > and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
              >
              > > can use my private email if you'd prefer."
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
              >
              > > Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
              >
              > > buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
              >
              > > because of friends and/or the promise of God-
              >
              > > Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
              >
              > > giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
              >
              > > I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
              >
              > > give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
              >
              > > after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
              >
              > > I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
              >
              > > and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
              >
              > > many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
              >
              > > a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
              >
              > > me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
              >
              > > reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
              >
              > > same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > [snip]
              >
              > > Ma-li (also) wrote:
              >
              > > "...Then the doubts
              > and mental processes begin
              >
              > > working until he's got himself almost convinced
              >
              > > he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
              >
              > > to go back and change answers because he also
              >
              > > feels he did the best he could.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > What does he do to fill the empty space?"
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
              >
              > > (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
              >
              > > it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
              >
              > > Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
              >
              > > middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
              >
              > > Masters in the making.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > When one follows another they give up their ability
              >
              > > to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
              >
              > > give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
              >
              > > a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
              >
              > > Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
              >
              > > Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
              >
              > > No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Prometheus
              >
              > >
              >
            • Ma-li
              Liska,   I totally agree with what you stated in your last paragraph.  Would that I had known that years aog, it might have saved me a lot of problems. 
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
                Liska,
                 
                I totally agree with what you stated in your last paragraph.  Would that I had known that years aog, it might have saved me a lot of problems.  However, then I would not have learned all the truths I did find thru Eckankar, and for that I'm eternally grateful.  I'm right where I'm supposed to be, in the perfect place and in the perfect moment.
                 
                Namaste,
                 
                Ma-li

                --- On Sat, 12/6/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 11:52 AM

                Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said
                below...

                "I agree that a lot can be learned from
                others, while at the same time I suspect
                there is a not so well noticed connection
                between how people search and what they
                actually find.

                What I mean to say is that I believe one's
                paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
                happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
                replaced by another. A better one. Because
                the former seems to become old and like all
                the juice squeezed out of the lemon."

                Due to the temporary nature of this world and everything in it, all
                things have their place and value in time. As individual consciousness
                evolves, old concepts no longer fit and the Soul moves on to newer and
                greater horizons. It's what we all did when we rejected the idea of an
                infallible master. I myself, realized that there is only God - Soul
                and nothing in-between. Anyone who declares themselves an intermediary
                between God and Soul is a fraud.

                Regards
                Liska

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > "My primary goal is personal experience,
                > but reading other people's works helps focus
                > my attention on something greater than day
                > to day mundane existence."
                >
                > I agree that a lot can be learned from
                > others, while at the same time I suspect
                > there is a not so well noticed connection
                > between how people search and what they
                > actually find.
                >
                > What I mean to say is that I believe one's
                > paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
                > happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
                > replaced by another. A better one. Because
                > the former seems to become old and like all
                > the juice squeezed out of the lemon.
                >
                > Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
                > seem to leave the same old, same old over
                > and over like a broken record.
                >
                > This is one of the traps I have found myself
                > in time and time again. By limiting myself to
                > only certain specific paradigms, listening and
                > reading only certain specific authors and then
                > thinking along only certain specific lines.
                >
                > I like to meet a variety of different people &
                > hear about a variety of different experiences.
                > In fact, I think if one would consider how many
                > different people there are in the world, and that
                > much potential for experience were available to
                > them, it might not sound too impossible how
                > one part of the "universe" could answer another
                > part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
                > ships.
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: drubezarn
                > e <drubezarne@ ...>
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
                >
                >
                >
                > Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about
                >
                > Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as
                >
                > intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning
                >
                > your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.
                >
                >
                >
                > When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere
                >
                > in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden
                >
                > thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the
                >
                > limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to
                >
                > imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem
                >
                > honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or
                >
                > boost their egos.
                >
                >
                >
                > I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For
                >
                > example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in
                >
                > meditation/contempl ation. On the inner planes, thinking and
                >
                > visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when
                >
                > assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because
                >
                > they are no longer necessary.
                >
                >
                >
                > The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance
                >
                > state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the
                >
                > body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
                > wareness. However,
                >
                > I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to
                >
                > place my attention on the formless.
                >
                >
                >
                > Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of
                >
                > the best explanations for our existence.
                >
                >
                >
                > By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books
                >
                > and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's
                >
                > books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book
                >
                > motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.
                >
                >
                >
                > My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's
                >
                > works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day
                >
                > mundane existence.
                >
                >
                >
                > I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to
                >
                > learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is
                >
                > there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role
                >
                > is to practice and develop my own style of playing.
                >
                >
                >
                > All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I
                >
                > don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all
                >
                > spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I
                >
                > don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking
                >
                > Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the
                >
                > extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore
                >
                > and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for
                >
                > one reason or another."
                >
                >
                >
                > Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select
                >
                > individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke
                >
                > up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think
                >
                > selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.
                >
                >
                >
                > Regards
                >
                > Liska
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "prometheus_ 973"
                >
                > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; Hello Ma-li,
                >
                > &gt; I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                >
                > &gt; thing I can't recommend anything to
                >
                > &gt; read, but I find many of the resources
                >
                > &gt; listed on this site to be interesting.
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; As far as believing these and other sources
                >
                > &gt; of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                >
                > &gt; and everything by the so called "experts." I
                >
                > &gt; definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                >
                > &gt; seems to be selling something for one reason
                >
                > &gt; or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                >
                > &gt; subjective, and is found within by each Soul.
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; Ma-li wrote:
                >
                > &gt; [snip]
                >
                > &gt; "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                >
                > &gt; handled it when you decided to leave, and
                >
                > &gt; especially what did you do about the spiritual
                >
                > &gt; exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                >
                > &gt
                > ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                >
                > &gt; writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                >
                > &gt; left but God?"
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                >
                > &gt; many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                >
                > &gt; sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                >
                > &gt; it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                >
                > &gt; and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                >
                > &gt; every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                >
                > &gt; opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                >
                > &gt; one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                >
                > &gt; I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                >
                > &gt; my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                >
                > &gt; believable to others.
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; However, I've always known and had proof of
                >
                > &gt; Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                >
                > &gt; I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                >
                > &gt; of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                >
                > &gt; and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                >
                > &gt; amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                >
                > &gt; or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                >
                > &gt; long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                >
                > &gt; because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                >
                > &gt; in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                >
                > &gt; HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                >
                > &gt; can experience a
                > Oneness with All There Is and a
                >
                > &gt; Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                >
                > &gt; the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                >
                > &gt; up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                >
                > &gt; new is it?
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                >
                > &gt; beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                >
                > &gt; the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                >
                > &gt; the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                >
                > &gt; warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                >
                > &gt; IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                >
                > &gt; the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                >
                > &gt; IT IS ME, and I AM IT."
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                >
                > &gt; and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                >
                > &gt; observing Nature is very contemplative and
                >
                > &gt; peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                >
                > &gt; The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                >
                > &gt; and beyond and into other times as does reading
                >
                > &gt; about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                >
                > &gt; know about how we became who we are and
                >
                > &gt; what we think we are in order to know more
                >
                > &gt; about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                >
                > &gt; about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
                > s
                >
                > &gt; from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                >
                > &gt; and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                >
                > &gt; If someone would care to share their experiences
                >
                > &gt; and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                >
                > &gt; can use my private email if you'd prefer."
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                >
                > &gt; Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                >
                > &gt; buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                >
                > &gt; because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                >
                > &gt; Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                >
                > &gt; giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                >
                > &gt; I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                >
                > &gt; give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                >
                > &gt; after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                >
                > &gt; I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                >
                > &gt; and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                >
                > &gt; many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                >
                > &gt; a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                >
                > &gt; me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                >
                > &gt; reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                >
                > &gt; same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; [snip]
                >
                > &gt; Ma-li (also) wrote:
                >
                > &gt; "...Then the doubts
                > and mental processes begin
                >
                > &gt; working until he's got himself almost convinced
                >
                > &gt; he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                >
                > &gt; to go back and change answers because he also
                >
                > &gt; feels he did the best he could.
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; What does he do to fill the empty space?"
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                >
                > &gt; (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                >
                > &gt; it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                >
                > &gt; Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                >
                > &gt; middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                >
                > &gt; Masters in the making.
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; When one follows another they give up their ability
                >
                > &gt; to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                >
                > &gt; give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                >
                > &gt; a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                >
                > &gt; Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                >
                > &gt; Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                >
                > &gt; No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.
                >
                > &gt;
                >
                > &gt; Prometheus
                >
                > &gt;
                >


              • Ma-li
                Thank you, Mish, and I will take time to just enjoy the empty spaces.  I have a feeling they won t be around much longer. lol  Haven t read the books you
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
                  Thank you, Mish, and I will take time to just enjoy the empty spaces.  I have a feeling they won't be around much longer. lol  Haven't read the books you recommend, but will find them one day soon.
                   
                  Re: tests in college....those were the days.lol  I did just what you did....left the others to sit and stew while I was out enjoying what the day had to offer.  Funny how the faster I did a test the better score I received.
                   
                  Namaste
                   
                  Ma-li

                  --- On Fri, 12/5/08, mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                  From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 8:16 AM

                  Hello Ma-li!

                  I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces,
                  what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in
                  one hour, reminded me of my college days! Actually, I
                  remember a few occasions when taking an exam that I
                  did actually finish quite early . . . and I remember some
                  self-doubts about why I finished it so quickly while others
                  were still laboring over the exam. What did I do?? I turned
                  the exam in and left the room! And then I did sort of a
                  happy dance outside, glad to be free of that exam room . . .
                  and how did I do? Well, I did quite well, because I had
                  aced those exams, and I was free to go on to the next
                  thing . . . and being a college student, I remember heading
                  to the beach with some friends for one time and having so
                  much fun. Can't quite remember on the other occasions, but
                  if it was just before school break, I probably got an early
                  start for home! So I guess my message is to trust yourself! : )

                  Empty spaces are a luxury really, but they often come at a
                  hard time, so there can be the feeling of loss . . . and we
                  want to quickly fill it up again with something else. I think
                  it is good to just take one's time and find things that are of
                  interest. I remember one time in my life when I had to sort
                  of re-invent myself. Every morning I'd ask myself what it
                  was that I wanted and needed to do with my life to make
                  myself happy. Happiness is so essential--it is not selfish to
                  want to seek this IMO. My goals had to be reasonable and
                  attainable goals--that was one stipulation I placed on myself.
                  I finally defined what it was I wanted and wanted to do and
                  then I looked for the ways to accomplish it all, one by one.

                  I guess what I'm saying you have to ask yourself what it is
                  you need and then find the ways to have it. But take your
                  time and enjoy the freedom of those empty spaces because
                  they allow you freedom for introspection which is needed to
                  take the next steps--all by your own choices and decisions!

                  Good luck! And I'd like to offer a couple of books for reading
                  as well. One member of our site who left eckankar after 30
                  years found Jed McKenna's book "Spiritual Enlightenment, the
                  Damnest Thing" to greatly help her to handle the void. She
                  still says it is the best book! I also like Sam Harris' book "The
                  End of Faith", and also enjoyed Bill Moyers TV series on "On Faith
                  and Reason" to be quite valuable. You can google for the Bill
                  Moyers series to find and read the transcripts.

                  Mish

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Non ekster et al,
                  >  
                  > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm living in the Now all
                  the time. However, on another level, I think/feel that I should be doing/being something
                  more than just being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the student who
                  finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for the other 2 hours...just sit there
                  quietly, leave the room, or go back over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it
                  doesn't feel right that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                  working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up the test, but he
                  doesn't want to go back and change answers because he also feels he did the best he
                  could.  What does he do to fill the empty space?
                  >  
                  > Namaste
                  >  
                  > Ma-li
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Non ekster <eckchains@. ..>
                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
                  >
                  > Non ekster ; )
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
                  > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello All,
                  > >
                  > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
                  > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
                  > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
                  > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
                  > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
                  > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
                  > >
                  > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
                  > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
                  > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
                  > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                  > > left but God?
                  > >
                  > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
                  > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
                  > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
                  > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
                  > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
                  > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
                  > >
                  > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
                  > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
                  > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                  > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
                  > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
                  > > you'd prefer.
                  > >
                  > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
                  > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
                  > > the answers.
                  > >
                  > > Namaste
                  > >
                  > > Ma-li
                  > >
                  >


                • Ma-li
                  Liska, I haven t checked these out yet, but will soon.  Still trying to get all of Ford s ebook read, but have to do it slowly since it really hurts my eyes
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
                    Liska, I haven't checked these out yet, but will soon.  Still trying to get all of Ford's ebook read, but have to do it slowly since it really hurts my eyes to read on the monitor.
                     
                    Thanks bunches.
                     
                    Namaste
                     
                    Ma-li

                    --- On Thu, 12/4/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                    From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 1:30 PM

                    Ma-li,
                    Have you checked out the free Henry T. Laurency .pdf books?

                    http://laurency. com/

                    I also recommend Neville Goddard, Joel Goldsmith, Ramana Maharshi, and
                    Jiddu Krishnamurti.

                    Regards
                    Liska

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li
                    <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Non ekster et al,
                    >  
                    > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm
                    living in the Now all the time. However, on another level, I
                    think/feel that I should be doing/being something more than just
                    being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the
                    student who finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for
                    the other 2 hours...just sit there quietly, leave the room, or go back
                    over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it doesn't feel right
                    that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                    working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up
                    the test, but he doesn't want to go back and change answers because he
                    also feels he did the best he could.  What does he do to fill the
                    empty space?
                    >  
                    > Namaste
                    >  
                    > Ma-li
                    >
                    > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Non ekster <eckchains@. ..>
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                    > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
                    >
                    > Non ekster ; )
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
                    > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello All,
                    > >
                    > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
                    > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
                    > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
                    > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
                    > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
                    > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
                    > >
                    > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
                    > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
                    > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
                    > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                    > > left but God?
                    > >
                    > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
                    > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
                    > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
                    > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
                    > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
                    > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
                    > >
                    > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
                    > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
                    > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                    > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
                    > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
                    > > you'd prefer.
                    > >
                    > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
                    > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
                    > > the answers.
                    > >
                    > > Namaste
                    > >
                    > > Ma-li
                    > >
                    >


                  • Ma-li
                    Hi Prometheus,   Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable comments.  I do appreciate them, and can relate to what you said.   I too wanted to believe
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
                      Hi Prometheus,
                       
                      Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable comments.  I do appreciate them, and can relate to what you said.
                       
                      I too wanted to believe all the malarky that was being fed to me, and had problems buying into what HK was saying.  As Eckankar evolved/devolved under HK, it seemed to be leaving me with an empty feeling.  I could get the same stories from any 5th grader.  I made that comment to another Eckist, and was told HK had to make it simpler for those just "coming in".  If those "coming in" were supposed to be already more spiritually advanced than those of us who had been there a long time, then why dumb it down.  Just one more thing that didn't set well with me.
                       
                      As for the spiritual exercises, apparently I didn't do them in an acceptable manner, but that was the way that was comfortable to me.  I haven't done them in quite a while now, and eventually will invent my own means of doing spiritual contemplation, if need be.  I spend a lot of time in Nature....gonna go out on a limb here and tell you that my entire life has been involved with helping animals in need...from the newborn to the ancient with special needs that require almost constant care.  I learned more about love from these animals than I ever did from HK, and feel blessed to have been given so much unconditional love and trust by beings usually untrusting of humans.  As each one passed over, it broke my heart, but I knew they were in a better place.  At least they had experienced love on this plane, and I'm sure it helped their Soul progression too. They were as close to me as my own heartbeat, and still are even tho' they have gone.
                       
                      By giving up this spiritual path, I feel more free to be me, and to know and love all life whatever the form.  Still have to work on the rattlesnakes and flies however. lol
                       
                      I think I bought into Eckankar for as long as I did because it seemed like the right thing to do at the time.  As the dis-satisfatico grew, I knew I had to be true to myself first and foremost.  Maybe it was the challenge of attaining initiations, I'm not certain.  I just know that somewhere along the line they ceased to matter, and my eyes were opening to see more about the spiritual path I was on. Didn't like what I saw, but didn't know how to get off the path.   I have done lots of "outside" reading over the years, and that has been instrumental in my eyes being opened.  Then there was that little sticking point that has always galled me........needing a mediator to connect with God.  If I didn't believe priests, ministers etc. could do it,  why should the Mahanta be any different???  There was no difference, and I finally "saw the light".
                       
                      My test has been taken, and I've completed it long before the others.  I have no doubts, and don't need to recheck my answers.  I won't sit around and wait for the others to finish, but will walk out the door into a world of fun, love, joy, and totally of my making.  I am the captain of my own ship now, and feel certain I will attain whatever spiritual goals I set for myself.
                       
                      I have been feeling guilty about not feeling guilty about leaving Eckankar.  It was guilt that had me wondering what to do next.  Now, thanks to all the wonderful posts by you, etznab, aftrek, mish, the guilt has gone away.  You all took the plunge with your eyes wide open, went thru the "what now" period, and emerged on the other side as full, complete human beings in charge of your own destinies.  May I join your ranks? 


                      --- On Thu, 12/4/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:26 PM

                      Hello Ma-li,
                      I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                      thing I can't recommend anything to
                      read, but I find many of the resources
                      listed on this site to be interesting.

                      As far as believing these and other sources
                      of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                      and everything by the so called "experts." I
                      definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                      seems to be selling something for one reason
                      or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                      subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

                      Ma-li wrote:
                      [snip]
                      "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                      handled it when you decided to leave, and
                      especially what did you do about the spiritual
                      exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                      Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                      writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                      left but God?"

                      *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                      many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                      sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                      it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                      and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                      every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                      opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                      one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                      I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                      my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                      believable to others.

                      However, I've always known and had proof of
                      Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                      I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                      of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                      and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                      amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                      or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                      long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                      because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                      in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                      HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                      can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
                      Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                      the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                      up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                      new is it?

                      "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                      beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                      the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                      the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                      warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                      IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                      the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                      IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

                      *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                      and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                      observing Nature is very contemplative and
                      peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                      The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                      and beyond and into other times as does reading
                      about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                      know about how we became who we are and
                      what we think we are in order to know more
                      about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

                      "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                      about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
                      from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                      and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                      If someone would care to share their experiences
                      and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                      can use my private email if you'd prefer."

                      *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                      Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                      buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                      because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                      Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                      giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                      I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                      give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                      after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                      I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                      and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                      many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                      a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                      me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                      reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                      same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

                      [snip]
                      Ma-li (also) wrote:
                      "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                      working until he's got himself almost convinced
                      he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                      to go back and change answers because he also
                      feels he did the best he could.

                      What does he do to fill the empty space?"

                      *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                      (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                      it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                      Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                      middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                      Masters in the making.

                      When one follows another they give up their ability
                      to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                      give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                      a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                      Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                      Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                      No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

                      Prometheus



                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Ma-li, It appears that you have already joined our ranks! You sound like an old friend where the passage of time and space becomes irrelevant to the
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
                        Hello Ma-li,
                        It appears that you have already joined
                        our ranks! You sound like an old friend
                        where the passage of time and space
                        becomes irrelevant to the friendship,
                        the journey, and to the connection of Soul.

                        I enjoyed reading of your experiences
                        and insights too. Yes, I too have mixed
                        feelings about flies and rattlesnakes.
                        I usually give them fair warning first and
                        offer them an out before taking preventative
                        (extreme) measures. The thing is it startles
                        me, at times, when other (friendly) snakes
                        sneak up on me, or I "discover" them. It's
                        actually kind of funny, but I scold them
                        for scaring me or for me scaring myself!

                        Prometheus


                        Ma-li wrote:
                        Hi Prometheus,

                        Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable
                        comments. I do appreciate them, and can relate
                        to what you said.

                        I too wanted to believe all the malarky that was
                        being fed to me, and had problems buying into
                        what HK was saying. As Eckankar evolved/devolved
                        under HK, it seemed to be leaving me with an empty
                        feeling. I could get the same stories from any 5th
                        grader. I made that comment to another Eckist,
                        and was told HK had to make it simpler for those
                        just "coming in". If those "coming in" were supposed
                        to be already more spiritually advanced than those
                        of us who had been there a long time, then why
                        dumb it down. Just one more thing that didn't set
                        well with me.

                        As for the spiritual exercises, apparently I didn't
                        do them in an acceptable manner, but that was
                        the way that was comfortable to me. I haven't
                        done them in quite a while now, and eventually
                        will invent my own means of doing spiritual
                        contemplation, if need be. I spend a lot of time
                        in Nature....gonna go out on a limb here and tell
                        you that my entire life has been involved with
                        helping animals in need...from the newborn to
                        the ancient with special needs that require almost
                        constant care. I learned more about love from
                        these animals than I ever did from HK, and feel
                        blessed to have been given so much unconditional
                        love and trust by beings usually untrusting of humans.
                        As each one passed over, it broke my heart, but
                        I knew they were in a better place. At least they
                        had experienced love on this plane, and I'm sure
                        it helped their Soul progression too. They were as
                        close to me as my own heartbeat, and still are even
                        tho' they have gone.

                        By giving up this spiritual path, I feel more free
                        to be me, and to know and love all life whatever
                        the form. Still have to work on the rattlesnakes
                        and flies however. lol

                        I think I bought into Eckankar for as long as I did
                        because it seemed like the right thing to do at the
                        time. As the dis-satisfatico grew, I knew I had to
                        be true to myself first and foremost. Maybe it was
                        the challenge of attaining initiations, I'm not certain.
                        I just know that somewhere along the line they ceased
                        to matter, and my eyes were opening to see more
                        about the spiritual path I was on. Didn't like what
                        I saw, but didn't know how to get off the path.
                        I have done lots of "outside" reading over the years,
                        and that has been instrumental in my eyes being
                        opened. Then there was that little sticking point
                        that has always galled me........needing a mediator
                        to connect with God. If I didn't believe priests,
                        ministers etc. could do it, why should the Mahanta
                        be any different??? There was no difference, and
                        I finally "saw the light".

                        My test has been taken, and I've completed it long
                        before the others. I have no doubts, and don't need
                        to recheck my answers. I won't sit around and wait
                        for the others to finish, but will walk out the door
                        into a world of fun, love, joy, and totally of my making.
                        I am the captain of my own ship now, and feel certain
                        I will attain whatever spiritual goals I set for myself.

                        I have been feeling guilty about not feeling guilty
                        about leaving Eckankar. It was guilt that had me
                        wondering what to do next. Now, thanks to all the
                        wonderful posts by you, etznab, aftrek, mish, the
                        guilt has gone away. You all took the plunge with
                        your eyes wide open, went thru the "what now"
                        period, and emerged on the other side as full,
                        complete human beings in charge of your own
                        destinies. May I join your ranks?

                        ************************************************
                        prometheus wrote:

                        Hello Ma-li,
                        I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                        thing I can't recommend anything to
                        read, but I find many of the resources
                        listed on this site to be interesting.

                        As far as believing these and other sources
                        of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                        and everything by the so called "experts." I
                        definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                        seems to be selling something for one reason
                        or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                        subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

                        Ma-li wrote:
                        [snip]
                        "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                        handled it when you decided to leave, and
                        especially what did you do about the spiritual
                        exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                        Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                        writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                        left but God?"

                        *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                        many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                        sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                        it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                        and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                        every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                        opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                        one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                        I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                        my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                        believable to others.

                        However, I've always known and had proof of
                        Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                        I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                        of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                        and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                        amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                        or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                        long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                        because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                        in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                        HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                        can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
                        Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                        the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                        up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                        new is it?

                        "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                        beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                        the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                        the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                        warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                        IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                        the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                        IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

                        *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                        and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                        observing Nature is very contemplative and
                        peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                        The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                        and beyond and into other times as does reading
                        about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                        know about how we became who we are and
                        what we think we are in order to know more
                        about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

                        "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                        about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
                        from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                        and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                        If someone would care to share their experiences
                        and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                        can use my private email if you'd prefer."

                        *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                        Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                        buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                        because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                        Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                        giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                        I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                        give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                        after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                        I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                        and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                        many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                        a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                        me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                        reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                        same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

                        [snip]
                        Ma-li (also) wrote:
                        "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                        working until he's got himself almost convinced
                        he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                        to go back and change answers because he also
                        feels he did the best he could.

                        What does he do to fill the empty space?"

                        *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                        (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                        it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                        Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                        middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                        Masters in the making.

                        When one follows another they give up their ability
                        to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                        give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                        a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                        Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                        Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                        No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

                        Prometheus
                      • drubezarne
                        Hi Leanne, I think Ford s statements about Hu and Aum might be valid here. In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson, he says... I would ven­ture that
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 7, 2008
                          Hi Leanne, I think Ford's statements about Hu and Aum might be valid here.

                          In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson, he says...

                          "I would ven­ture that God has no pref­er­ence and al­so that all
                          sounds and words are part of ALL THAT IS, and serve equal­ly well in
                          gar­ner­ing God's at­ten­tion."

                          and...

                          "The im­por­tant point is that all sounds or mantras can en­able the
                          in­di­vid­ual to tran­scend the phys­ical di­men­sion and
                          ex­pe­ri­ence the ec­stat­ic states and the in­ner planes...They all
                          work and can en­able the in­divid­ual to hear the re­mark­able and
                          awe-in­spir­ing sounds of the in­ner worlds. As­crib­ing greater
                          mag­ic to one sound or mantra over an­oth­er is much like ar­gu­ing
                          whose God is great­est. It is a mean­ing­less de­bate for ev­ery­thing
                          is part of the ONE. Fur­ther, when the prac­ti­tion­er has had some
                          ex­pe­ri­ence with these mantras and the in­ner ex­pe­ri­ences that
                          follow, she will come to the re­al­iza­tion that these are not
                          out­side sounds; they are a part of her."

                          and...

                          "The Va­lid­ity of Spir­itu­al Ex­er­cis­es. The ba­sic spir­itu­al
                          ex­er­cise of Eck, which Paul called "the easy way," is al­so the
                          ba­sic ex­er­cise of the Shabd Yo­ga tra­di­tion, and, as such,
                          car­ries with it the in­trin­sic va­lid­ity of this prac­tice in the
                          Yo­ga tradi­tion. In these teach­ings, the HU is sung "Hooooooo,"
                          where­as in Eck­ankar, it is sung "Hu­uu­uu­uuu" or "hugh" — Paul's
                          ef­fort to make it unique. The dif­fer­ence is of no re­al
                          sig­nif­icance. Each sound will work and should be con­tin­ued if it
                          works for you."

                          As to Ek Onkar; it is a Sikh term that means "God is One." Julian
                          Johnson's Path of the Masters mentions it. If you downloaded the .pdf
                          book, you can do a search for it in Acrobat.

                          Regards,
                          Liska

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Leanne Thompson
                          <le_anne_thompson@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Does anyone still HU now that they left eckankar? I use HU-OM or
                          other sanskrit words.
                          >  
                          > BTW in a book of meditation by yogi bhajan I found EK OM KAR. I
                          think it was a mantra or something like  that. Has anyone heard of that?
                          >  
                          > Thanks
                          > Leanne
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Liska and All, It s interesting that Ford said, They all work and can enable the individual to hear the remarkable and awe-inspiring sounds of the INNER
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 7, 2008
                            Hello Liska and All,
                            It's interesting that Ford said,
                            "They all work and can enable
                            the individual to hear the remarkable
                            and awe-inspiring sounds of the INNER
                            WORLDS. Ascribing greater MAGIC to
                            one sound or mantra over another is
                            much like arguing whose God is greatest."
                            [MY CAPS]

                            So, is Ford saying that these are Magical
                            sounds/mantras that have "intrinsic validity."
                            Isn't that a contradiction of terms? Or, is
                            he saying that most people see these as
                            magical words/sounds, but that these
                            have "intrinsic validity" in Shabd Yoga?
                            However, does Shabd Yoga have validity?
                            How much or with what? BTW- I wonder
                            which planes or "inner worlds" Ford was
                            referring to?

                            IMO it does seem that there is something
                            different with the vibratory rate of this
                            sound/mantra (HU) that makes it more
                            unique than the other (AUM), or Not!
                            Perhaps there are Universal sounds/mantras,
                            as well as, more specific ones that match
                            or enhance each person's/Soul's vibratory
                            rate of consciousness. And, this is why one
                            sound works better for one person than with
                            another person.

                            The other quote you gave by Ford was:

                            "The Validity of Spiritual Exercises.

                            The basic spiritual exercise of Eck, which Paul
                            called "the easy way," is also the basic exercise
                            of the Shabd Yoga tradition, and, as such, carries
                            with it the INTRINSIC VALIDITY of this practice
                            in the Yoga tradition. In these teachings, the
                            HU is sung "Hooooooo," where as in Eckankar,
                            it is sung "Huuuuuuu" or "hugh." [MY CAPS]

                            Personally, I often have trouble accepting any
                            promises and beliefs from any religion as valid
                            and, especially, from those religions that have
                            "Living Masters" who have set themselves up as
                            Masters/Godmen/Saviours/Prophets.

                            It is interesting about the HU being sung as
                            "Hooooooo" (who) and "Huuuuuuu" (hue/hugh).

                            I knew ECKists who would sing HU as "Hooooooo"
                            (who)! It was very strange and they sang loud!!!
                            I never did ask them why they did this, but they
                            believed they were part of Harry's inner (Inner)
                            Circle and were more special than most of his
                            RESAs. They had a small following at the major
                            EK Seminars and were very aloof towards the
                            RESA structure and toward rules and guidelines
                            in general. They usually ignored these or acted
                            As If they had no knowledge of these ESC approved
                            procedures. Delusion runs rampant in ECKankar!

                            Prometheus



                            Liska wrote:
                            Hi Leanne, I think Ford's statements about
                            Hu and Aum might be valid here.

                            In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson,
                            he says...

                            "I would venture that God has no preference
                            and also that all sounds and words are part
                            of ALL THAT IS, and serve equally well in
                            garnering God's attention."

                            and...

                            "The important point is that all sounds or
                            mantras can enable the individual to transcend
                            the physical dimension and experience the
                            ecstatic states and the inner planes... They
                            all work and can enable the individual to hear
                            the remarkable and awe-inspiring sounds
                            of the inner worlds. Ascribing greater magic
                            to one sound or mantra over another is much
                            like arguing whose God is greatest. It is a
                            meaningless debate for everything is part of
                            the ONE. Further, when the practitioner has
                            had some experience with these mantras and
                            the inner experiences that follow, she will
                            come to the realization that these are not
                            outside sounds; they are a part of her."

                            and...

                            "The Validity of Spiritual Exercises. The basic
                            spiritual exercise of Eck, which Paul called
                            "the easy way," is also the basic exercise of
                            the Shabd Yoga tradition, and, as such, carries
                            with it the INTRINSIC VALIDITY of this practice
                            in the Yoga tradition. In these teachings, the
                            HU is sung "Hooooooo," where as in Eckankar,
                            it is sung "Huuuuuuuu" or "hugh" — Paul's
                            effort to make it unique. The difference is of
                            no real significance. Each sound will work and
                            should be continued if it works for you."

                            ME: [My Caps]

                            As to Ek Onkar; it is a Sikh term that means
                            "God is One." Julian Johnson's Path of the Masters
                            mentions it. If you downloaded the .pdf
                            book, you can do a search for it in Acrobat.

                            Regards,
                            Liska


                            Leanne wrote:

                            Does anyone still HU now that they left eckankar?
                            I use HU-OM or other sanskrit words.

                            BTW in a book of meditation by yogi bhajan I found
                            EK OM KAR. I think it was a mantra or something like
                            that. Has anyone heard of that?

                            Thanks
                            Leanne
                            >
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