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Re: What now?

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  • mishmisha9
    Hello Ma-li! I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces, what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in one hour, reminded me of my
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
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      Hello Ma-li!

      I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces,
      what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in
      one hour, reminded me of my college days! Actually, I
      remember a few occasions when taking an exam that I
      did actually finish quite early . . . and I remember some
      self-doubts about why I finished it so quickly while others
      were still laboring over the exam. What did I do?? I turned
      the exam in and left the room! And then I did sort of a
      happy dance outside, glad to be free of that exam room . . .
      and how did I do? Well, I did quite well, because I had
      aced those exams, and I was free to go on to the next
      thing . . . and being a college student, I remember heading
      to the beach with some friends for one time and having so
      much fun. Can't quite remember on the other occasions, but
      if it was just before school break, I probably got an early
      start for home! So I guess my message is to trust yourself! : )

      Empty spaces are a luxury really, but they often come at a
      hard time, so there can be the feeling of loss . . . and we
      want to quickly fill it up again with something else. I think
      it is good to just take one's time and find things that are of
      interest. I remember one time in my life when I had to sort
      of re-invent myself. Every morning I'd ask myself what it
      was that I wanted and needed to do with my life to make
      myself happy. Happiness is so essential--it is not selfish to
      want to seek this IMO. My goals had to be reasonable and
      attainable goals--that was one stipulation I placed on myself.
      I finally defined what it was I wanted and wanted to do and
      then I looked for the ways to accomplish it all, one by one.

      I guess what I'm saying you have to ask yourself what it is
      you need and then find the ways to have it. But take your
      time and enjoy the freedom of those empty spaces because
      they allow you freedom for introspection which is needed to
      take the next steps--all by your own choices and decisions!

      Good luck! And I'd like to offer a couple of books for reading
      as well. One member of our site who left eckankar after 30
      years found Jed McKenna's book "Spiritual Enlightenment, the
      Damnest Thing" to greatly help her to handle the void. She
      still says it is the best book! I also like Sam Harris' book "The
      End of Faith", and also enjoyed Bill Moyers TV series on "On Faith
      and Reason" to be quite valuable. You can google for the Bill
      Moyers series to find and read the transcripts.

      Mish

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Non ekster et al,
      >  
      > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm living in the Now all
      the time. However, on another level, I think/feel that I should be doing/being something
      more than just being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the student who
      finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for the other 2 hours...just sit there
      quietly, leave the room, or go back over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it
      doesn't feel right that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
      working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up the test, but he
      doesn't want to go back and change answers because he also feels he did the best he
      could.  What does he do to fill the empty space?
      >  
      > Namaste
      >  
      > Ma-li
      >
      > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Non ekster <eckchains@...>
      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
      >
      > Non ekster ; )
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
      > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello All,
      > >
      > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
      > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
      > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
      > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
      > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
      > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
      > >
      > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
      > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
      > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
      > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
      > > left but God?
      > >
      > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
      > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
      > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
      > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
      > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
      > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
      > >
      > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
      > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
      > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
      > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
      > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
      > > you'd prefer.
      > >
      > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
      > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
      > > the answers.
      > >
      > > Namaste
      > >
      > > Ma-li
      > >
      >
    • drubezarne
      Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about Eckankar s charlatans and other frauds who want to act as intermediaries between God and Soul.
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
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        Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about
        Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as
        intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning
        your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.

        When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere
        in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden
        thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the
        limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to
        imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem
        honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or
        boost their egos.

        I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For
        example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in
        meditation/contemplation. On the inner planes, thinking and
        visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when
        assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because
        they are no longer necessary.

        The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance
        state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the
        body and moving the consciousness beyond physical awareness. However,
        I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to
        place my attention on the formless.

        Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of
        the best explanations for our existence.

        By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books
        and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's
        books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book
        motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.

        My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's
        works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day
        mundane existence.

        I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to
        learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is
        there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role
        is to practice and develop my own style of playing.

        All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I
        don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all
        spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I
        don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking
        Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the
        extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore
        and test before declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for
        one reason or another."

        Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select
        individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke
        up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think
        selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.

        Regards
        Liska

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Ma-li,
        > I thought I'd respond as well. For one
        > thing I can't recommend anything to
        > read, but I find many of the resources
        > listed on this site to be interesting.
        >
        > As far as believing these and other sources
        > of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
        > and everything by the so called "experts." I
        > definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
        > seems to be selling something for one reason
        > or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
        > subjective, and is found within by each Soul.
        >
        >
        >
        > Ma-li wrote:
        > [snip]
        > "Would anyone like to share with me how you
        > handled it when you decided to leave, and
        > especially what did you do about the spiritual
        > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
        > Eck Masters never really existed, except in
        > writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
        > left but God?"
        >
        >
        >
        > *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
        > many things in ECKankar just didn't make
        > sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
        > it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
        > and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
        > every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
        > opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
        > one dimensional stories didn't help either.
        > I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
        > my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
        > believable to others.
        >
        > However, I've always known and had proof of
        > Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
        > I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
        > of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
        > and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
        > amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
        > or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
        > long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
        > because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
        > in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
        > HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
        > can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
        > Contentment that I could never achieve while under
        > the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
        > up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
        > new is it?
        >
        >
        >
        > "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
        > beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
        > the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
        > the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
        > warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
        > IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
        > the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
        > IT IS ME, and I AM IT."
        >
        >
        >
        > *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
        > and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
        > observing Nature is very contemplative and
        > peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
        > The past tunes take one back to one's youth
        > and beyond and into other times as does reading
        > about or watching history on TV. It's good to
        > know about how we became who we are and
        > what we think we are in order to know more
        > about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.
        >
        >
        >
        > "All this being said, I don't know what to do
        > about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
        > from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
        > and need to make a choice about what to do next.
        > If someone would care to share their experiences
        > and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
        > can use my private email if you'd prefer."
        >
        >
        >
        > *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
        > Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
        > buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
        > because of friends and/or the promise of God-
        > Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
        > giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
        > I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
        > give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
        > after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
        > I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
        > and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
        > many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
        > a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
        > me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
        > reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
        > same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [snip]
        > Ma-li (also) wrote:
        > "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
        > working until he's got himself almost convinced
        > he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
        > to go back and change answers because he also
        > feels he did the best he could.
        >
        > What does he do to fill the empty space?"
        >
        >
        >
        > *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
        > (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
        > it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
        > Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
        > middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
        > Masters in the making.
        >
        > When one follows another they give up their ability
        > to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
        > give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
        > a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
        > Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
        > Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
        > No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • etznab@aol.com
        All this being said, I don t know what to do about spiritual exercises, or how to progress from here. It s like I m standing alone once again, and need to
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
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          "All this being said, I don't know what to do
          about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
          from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
          and need to make a choice about what to do next.
          If someone would care to share their experiences
          and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
          can use my private email if you'd prefer."

          Ma-Li,

          I still think one can ask their questions and the
          "universe" will answer.

          Do you like to read books? This is where I get a
          lot of answers to my questions.

          There is this book, with a tacky looking cover &
          a tacky sounding name. Inside the cover though, I
          found it to be anything but tacky. It's called: Punk
          Science, Inside the Mind of God, by Dr. Manjir
          Samanta-Laughton. I saw a book review for it in an
          HCS Newsletter some time ago. Just read it again
          for about the third time.

          Maybe you have another way for connecting and
          receiving guidance from the universe. I'd say follow
          that. Take some initiative and don't give up. See
          what comes.

          This is what impressed me the most about what
          were in the teachings of Eckankar. That I didn't
          have to wait around & depend on other people for
          the answers to everything. Of course, if you depend
          on organized religion for all the answers it could be
          a long wait, IMO. In my experience it was always a
          form of "giving up initiative" - just plain giving up per-
          iod! that left
          me feeling helpless and dependent on
          some invisible "God" as if it were separate from my-
          self that I had to wait around for. That was the real
          bummer for me.

          I would say try what you know works for you. If
          the old methods do not work anymore then initiate
          something new. Don't feel you have to share what
          methods work for you either, or whether they are
          approved of and / or work for other people that you
          know. Find what works for you. That would be my
          advice. If you have a hobby, or something that you
          love to do, maybe explore that.

          Years ago, after I lost something that I loved very
          much, I realized that I had to replace it with some-
          thing in order to fill the void. I invested in another
          love of mine. One that I had since my youth. I had
          a love for words, and for poetry. So I explored the
          subject of words. I put a lot of time into that and it
          grew and grew into something bigger. It took me in-
          to other areas that I loved just as much, like history
          in general. Ancient history, history of religions and
          the history of words became my new friends and I
          got to know them better and better over the years.
          For some reason this is what I love to do. I can do
          it for hours on end and it doesn't feel like "work", if
          you know what I mean. I don't get paid a dollar for
          it either, but it brings a lot of satisfaction because, I
          think, whenever a person develops a talent=2
          0& moves
          in the direction of mastership toward something it
          puts them in a position of being more self sufficient
          and less dependent on others. It also gives them a
          gift that they can share with others. IMO.

          Don't know if this helps, but maybe something
          to consider at least. If in the future, after you find
          something that helps, if it's something you would
          like to share (if you choose) then maybe it could
          be posted here and it will help somebody else in
          a similar situation.

          I know that, for myself, I still feel other voids
          which need to be filled. Every time I find something
          that doesn't work the same (or not at all) anymore
          it leaves a kind of void and I have to do something
          about it. Maybe nothing has to be done, in every
          case, but I'd suspect that most people eventually
          learn to find something better than what they had
          before.

          This is kinda long already. Sorry for the length.

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:26 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?



          Hello Ma-li,

          I thought I'd respond as well. For one

          thing I can't recommend anything to

          read, but I find many of the resources

          listed on this site to be interesting.



          As far as believing these and other sources

          of info I don't! It's too easily to accept20anything

          and everything by the so called "experts." I

          definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone

          seems to be selling something for one reason

          or another. The Truth is out there, is usually

          subjective, and is found within by each Soul.



          Ma-li wrote:

          [snip]

          "Would anyone like to share with me how you

          handled it when you decided to leave, and

          especially what did you do about the spiritual

          exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the

          Eck Masters never really existed, except in

          writers' fertile minds, then who/what is

          left but God?"



          *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that

          many things in ECKankar just didn't make

          sense and didn't add up even though I wanted

          it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,

          and in the initiations but it was getting tougher

          every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s

          opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and

          one dimensional stories didn't help either.

          I found that I had to put blinders on and hold

          my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound

          believable to others.



          However, I've always known and had proof of

          Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).

          I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How

          of many specifics outside of my realm of experience

          and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk0D

          amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises

          or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many

          long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises

          because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking

          in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still

          HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I

          can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a

          Contentment that I could never achieve while under

          the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give

          up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing

          new is it?



          "God has always been the "real" aspect of my

          beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,

          the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,

          the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the

          warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.

          IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for

          the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.

          IT IS ME, and I AM IT."



          *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside

          and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and

          observing Nature is very contemplative and

          peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!

          The past tunes take one back to one's youth

          and beyond and into other times as does reading

          about or watching history on TV. It's good to

          know about how we became who we are and

          what we think we are in order to kno
          w more

          about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.



          "All this being said, I don't know what to do

          about spiritual exercises, or how to progress

          from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,

          and need to make a choice about what to do next.

          If someone would care to share their experiences

          and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You

          can use my private email if you'd prefer."



          *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.

          Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you

          buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it

          because of friends and/or the promise of God-

          Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble

          giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.

          I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would

          give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies

          after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after

          I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together

          and I saw the con and the realized why there were so

          many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or

          a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to

          me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my

          reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the

          same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!



          [snip]

          Ma-li (also) wrote:

          "...Then the doubts and mental processes beg
          in

          working until he's got himself almost convinced

          he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want

          to go back and change answers because he also

          feels he did the best he could.



          What does he do to fill the empty space?"



          *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time

          (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole

          it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!

          Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'

          middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own

          Masters in the making.



          When one follows another they give up their ability

          to choose and to discover their own Truth. They

          give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need

          a religion to believe in when they can't believe in

          Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in

          Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.

          No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.



          Prometheus



















          =0
          A
        • etznab@aol.com
          Mish, I probably shoulda read all the threads for today first, before responding to Ma-Li. I think if I had read your response first, I probably would have
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Mish,

            I probably shoulda read all the threads for today
            first, before responding to Ma-Li. I think if I had read
            your response first, I probably would have said much
            less myself. It sounded like some good advice to me.
            What you shared, Mish.

            Etznab

            -----Original Message-----
            From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 9:16 am
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?



            Hello Ma-li!



            I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces,

            what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in

            one hour, reminded me of my college days! Actually, I

            remember a few occasions when taking an exam that I

            did actually finish quite early . . . and I remember some

            self-doubts about why I finished it so quickly while others

            were still laboring over the exam. What did I do?? I turned

            the exam in and left the room! And then I did sort of a

            happy dance outside, glad to be free of that exam room . . .

            and how did I do? Well, I did quite well, because I had

            aced those exams, and I was free to go on to the next

            thing . . . and being a college student, I remember heading

            to the beach with some friends for one time and having so

            much fun. Can't quite remember on the other occasions, but

            if it was just before school break, I probably got an early


            start for home! So I guess my message is to trust yourself! : )



            Empty spaces are a luxury really, but they often come at a

            hard time, so there can be the feeling of loss . . . and we

            want to quickly fill it up again with something else. I think

            it is good to just take one's time and find things that are of

            interest. I remember one time in my life when I had to sort

            of re-invent myself. Every morning I'd ask myself what it

            was that I wanted and needed to do with my life to make

            myself happy. Happiness is so essential--it is not selfish to

            want to seek this IMO. My goals had to be reasonable and

            attainable goals--that was one stipulation I placed on myself.

            I finally defined what it was I wanted and wanted to do and

            then I looked for the ways to accomplish it all, one by one.



            I guess what I'm saying you have to ask yourself what it is

            you need and then find the ways to have it. But take your

            time and enjoy the freedom of those empty spaces because

            they allow you freedom for introspection which is needed to

            take the next steps--all by your own choices and decisions!



            Good luck! And I'd like to offer a couple of books for reading

            as well. One member of our site who left eckankar after 30

            years found Jed McKenna's book "Spiritual Enlightenment, the

            Damnest Thing" to greatly help her to handle
            the void. She

            still says it is the best book! I also like Sam Harris' book "The

            End of Faith", and also enjoyed Bill Moyers TV series on "On Faith

            and Reason" to be quite valuable. You can google for the Bill

            Moyers series to find and read the transcripts.



            Mish



            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li
            <mhstarlings@...> wrote:

            >

            > Hello Non ekster et al,

            >  

            > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like
            I'm living in the Now all

            the time. However, on another level, I think/feel that I should be
            doing/being something

            more than just being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it
            to the student who

            finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for the other 2
            hours...just sit there

            quietly, leave the room, or go back over the test yet again?  He's in a
            quandry, and it

            doesn't feel right that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental
            processes begin

            working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up
            the test, but he

            doesn't want to go back and change answers because he also feels he did
            the best he

            could.  What does he do to fill the empty space?

            >  

            > Namaste

            >  

            > Ma-li

            >

            > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@...> wrote:


            >

            > From: Non ekster <eckchains@...>

            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?

            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

            > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.

            >

            > Non ekster ; )

            >

            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"

            > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:

            > >

            > > Hello All,

            > >

            > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined

            > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years
            of Eck

            > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years
            ago.

            > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about

            > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find
            answers,

            > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.

            > >

            > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when
            you

            > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the
            spiritual

            > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters
            never

            > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then
            who/what is

            > > left but God?

            > >

            > > God has
            always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in

            > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the
            four-

            > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
            warm

            > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that
            gives

            > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in

            > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.

            > >

            > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual

            > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm
            standing

            > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do
            next.

            > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices
            from

            > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email
            if

            > > you'd prefer.

            > >

            > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much
            Prometheus for

            > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they
            search for

            > > the answers.

            > >

            > > Namaste

            > >

            > > Ma-li

            > >

            >
          • etznab@aol.com
            My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people s works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day mundane existence. I
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              "My primary goal is personal experience,
              but reading other people's works helps focus
              my attention on something greater than day
              to day mundane existence."

              I agree that a lot can be learned from
              others, while at the same time I suspect
              there is a not so well noticed connection
              between how people search and what they
              actually find.

              What I mean to say is that I believe one's
              paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
              happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
              replaced by another. A better one. Because
              the former seems to become old and like all
              the juice squeezed out of the lemon.

              Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
              seem to leave the same old, same old over
              and over like a broken record.

              This is one of the traps I have found myself
              in time and time again. By limiting myself to
              only certain specific paradigms, listening and
              reading only certain specific authors and then
              thinking along only certain specific lines.

              I like to meet a variety of different people &
              hear about a variety of different experiences.
              In fact, I think if one would consider how many
              different people there are in the world, and that
              much potential for experience were available to
              them, it might not sound too impossible how
              one part of the "universe" could answer another
              part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
              ships.

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: drubezarn
              e <drubezarne@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?



              Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about

              Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as

              intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning

              your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.



              When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere

              in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden

              thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the

              limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to

              imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem

              honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or

              boost their egos.



              I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For

              example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in

              meditation/contemplation. On the inner planes, thinking and

              visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when

              assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because

              they are no longer necessary.



              The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance

              state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the

              body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
              wareness. However,

              I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to

              place my attention on the formless.



              Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of

              the best explanations for our existence.



              By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books

              and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's

              books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book

              motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.



              My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's

              works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day

              mundane existence.



              I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to

              learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is

              there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role

              is to practice and develop my own style of playing.



              All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I

              don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all

              spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I

              don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking

              Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the

              extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore

              and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for

              one reason or another."



              Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select

              individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke

              up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think

              selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.



              Regards

              Liska



              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"

              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

              >

              > Hello Ma-li,

              > I thought I'd respond as well. For one

              > thing I can't recommend anything to

              > read, but I find many of the resources

              > listed on this site to be interesting.

              >

              > As far as believing these and other sources

              > of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything

              > and everything by the so called "experts." I

              > definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone

              > seems to be selling something for one reason

              > or another. The Truth is out there, is usually

              > subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

              >

              >

              >

              > Ma-li wrote:

              > [snip]

              > "Would anyone like to share with me how you

              > handled it when you decided to leave, and

              > especially what did you do about the spiritual

              > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the

              >
              ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in

              > writers' fertile minds, then who/what is

              > left but God?"

              >

              >

              >

              > *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that

              > many things in ECKankar just didn't make

              > sense and didn't add up even though I wanted

              > it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,

              > and in the initiations but it was getting tougher

              > every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s

              > opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and

              > one dimensional stories didn't help either.

              > I found that I had to put blinders on and hold

              > my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound

              > believable to others.

              >

              > However, I've always known and had proof of

              > Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).

              > I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How

              > of many specifics outside of my realm of experience

              > and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk

              > amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises

              > or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many

              > long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises

              > because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking

              > in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still

              > HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I

              > can experience a
              Oneness with All There Is and a

              > Contentment that I could never achieve while under

              > the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give

              > up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing

              > new is it?

              >

              >

              >

              > "God has always been the "real" aspect of my

              > beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,

              > the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,

              > the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the

              > warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.

              > IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for

              > the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.

              > IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

              >

              >

              >

              > *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside

              > and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and

              > observing Nature is very contemplative and

              > peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!

              > The past tunes take one back to one's youth

              > and beyond and into other times as does reading

              > about or watching history on TV. It's good to

              > know about how we became who we are and

              > what we think we are in order to know more

              > about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

              >

              >

              >

              > "All this being said, I don't know what to do

              > about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
              s

              > from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,

              > and need to make a choice about what to do next.

              > If someone would care to share their experiences

              > and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You

              > can use my private email if you'd prefer."

              >

              >

              >

              > *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.

              > Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you

              > buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it

              > because of friends and/or the promise of God-

              > Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble

              > giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.

              > I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would

              > give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies

              > after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after

              > I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together

              > and I saw the con and the realized why there were so

              > many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or

              > a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to

              > me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my

              > reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the

              > same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

              >

              >

              >

              >

              > [snip]

              > Ma-li (also) wrote:

              > "...Then the doubts
              and mental processes begin

              > working until he's got himself almost convinced

              > he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want

              > to go back and change answers because he also

              > feels he did the best he could.

              >

              > What does he do to fill the empty space?"

              >

              >

              >

              > *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time

              > (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole

              > it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!

              > Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'

              > middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own

              > Masters in the making.

              >

              > When one follows another they give up their ability

              > to choose and to discover their own Truth. They

              > give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need

              > a religion to believe in when they can't believe in

              > Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in

              > Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.

              > No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

              >

              > Prometheus

              >
            • drubezarne
              Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said below... I agree that a lot can be learned from others, while at the same time I
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said
                below...

                "I agree that a lot can be learned from
                others, while at the same time I suspect
                there is a not so well noticed connection
                between how people search and what they
                actually find.

                What I mean to say is that I believe one's
                paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
                happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
                replaced by another. A better one. Because
                the former seems to become old and like all
                the juice squeezed out of the lemon."

                Due to the temporary nature of this world and everything in it, all
                things have their place and value in time. As individual consciousness
                evolves, old concepts no longer fit and the Soul moves on to newer and
                greater horizons. It's what we all did when we rejected the idea of an
                infallible master. I myself, realized that there is only God - Soul
                and nothing in-between. Anyone who declares themselves an intermediary
                between God and Soul is a fraud.

                Regards
                Liska

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > "My primary goal is personal experience,
                > but reading other people's works helps focus
                > my attention on something greater than day
                > to day mundane existence."
                >
                > I agree that a lot can be learned from
                > others, while at the same time I suspect
                > there is a not so well noticed connection
                > between how people search and what they
                > actually find.
                >
                > What I mean to say is that I believe one's
                > paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
                > happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
                > replaced by another. A better one. Because
                > the former seems to become old and like all
                > the juice squeezed out of the lemon.
                >
                > Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
                > seem to leave the same old, same old over
                > and over like a broken record.
                >
                > This is one of the traps I have found myself
                > in time and time again. By limiting myself to
                > only certain specific paradigms, listening and
                > reading only certain specific authors and then
                > thinking along only certain specific lines.
                >
                > I like to meet a variety of different people &
                > hear about a variety of different experiences.
                > In fact, I think if one would consider how many
                > different people there are in the world, and that
                > much potential for experience were available to
                > them, it might not sound too impossible how
                > one part of the "universe" could answer another
                > part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
                > ships.
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: drubezarn
                > e <drubezarne@...>
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                >
                >
                >
                > Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about
                >
                > Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as
                >
                > intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning
                >
                > your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.
                >
                >
                >
                > When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere
                >
                > in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden
                >
                > thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the
                >
                > limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to
                >
                > imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem
                >
                > honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or
                >
                > boost their egos.
                >
                >
                >
                > I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For
                >
                > example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in
                >
                > meditation/contemplation. On the inner planes, thinking and
                >
                > visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when
                >
                > assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because
                >
                > they are no longer necessary.
                >
                >
                >
                > The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance
                >
                > state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the
                >
                > body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
                > wareness. However,
                >
                > I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to
                >
                > place my attention on the formless.
                >
                >
                >
                > Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of
                >
                > the best explanations for our existence.
                >
                >
                >
                > By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books
                >
                > and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's
                >
                > books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book
                >
                > motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.
                >
                >
                >
                > My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's
                >
                > works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day
                >
                > mundane existence.
                >
                >
                >
                > I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to
                >
                > learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is
                >
                > there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role
                >
                > is to practice and develop my own style of playing.
                >
                >
                >
                > All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I
                >
                > don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all
                >
                > spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I
                >
                > don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking
                >
                > Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the
                >
                > extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore
                >
                > and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for
                >
                > one reason or another."
                >
                >
                >
                > Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select
                >
                > individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke
                >
                > up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think
                >
                > selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.
                >
                >
                >
                > Regards
                >
                > Liska
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                >
                > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Hello Ma-li,
                >
                > > I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                >
                > > thing I can't recommend anything to
                >
                > > read, but I find many of the resources
                >
                > > listed on this site to be interesting.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > As far as believing these and other sources
                >
                > > of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                >
                > > and everything by the so called "experts." I
                >
                > > definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                >
                > > seems to be selling something for one reason
                >
                > > or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                >
                > > subjective, and is found within by each Soul.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Ma-li wrote:
                >
                > > [snip]
                >
                > > "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                >
                > > handled it when you decided to leave, and
                >
                > > especially what did you do about the spiritual
                >
                > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                >
                > >
                > ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                >
                > > writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                >
                > > left but God?"
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                >
                > > many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                >
                > > sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                >
                > > it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                >
                > > and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                >
                > > every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                >
                > > opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                >
                > > one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                >
                > > I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                >
                > > my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                >
                > > believable to others.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > However, I've always known and had proof of
                >
                > > Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                >
                > > I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                >
                > > of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                >
                > > and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                >
                > > amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                >
                > > or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                >
                > > long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                >
                > > because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                >
                > > in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                >
                > > HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                >
                > > can experience a
                > Oneness with All There Is and a
                >
                > > Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                >
                > > the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                >
                > > up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                >
                > > new is it?
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                >
                > > beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                >
                > > the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                >
                > > the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                >
                > > warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                >
                > > IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                >
                > > the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                >
                > > IT IS ME, and I AM IT."
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                >
                > > and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                >
                > > observing Nature is very contemplative and
                >
                > > peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                >
                > > The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                >
                > > and beyond and into other times as does reading
                >
                > > about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                >
                > > know about how we became who we are and
                >
                > > what we think we are in order to know more
                >
                > > about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                >
                > > about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
                > s
                >
                > > from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                >
                > > and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                >
                > > If someone would care to share their experiences
                >
                > > and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                >
                > > can use my private email if you'd prefer."
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                >
                > > Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                >
                > > buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                >
                > > because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                >
                > > Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                >
                > > giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                >
                > > I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                >
                > > give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                >
                > > after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                >
                > > I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                >
                > > and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                >
                > > many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                >
                > > a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                >
                > > me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                >
                > > reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                >
                > > same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > [snip]
                >
                > > Ma-li (also) wrote:
                >
                > > "...Then the doubts
                > and mental processes begin
                >
                > > working until he's got himself almost convinced
                >
                > > he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                >
                > > to go back and change answers because he also
                >
                > > feels he did the best he could.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > What does he do to fill the empty space?"
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                >
                > > (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                >
                > > it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                >
                > > Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                >
                > > middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                >
                > > Masters in the making.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > When one follows another they give up their ability
                >
                > > to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                >
                > > give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                >
                > > a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                >
                > > Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                >
                > > Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                >
                > > No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Prometheus
                >
                > >
                >
              • Ma-li
                Liska,   I totally agree with what you stated in your last paragraph.  Would that I had known that years aog, it might have saved me a lot of problems. 
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
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                  Liska,
                   
                  I totally agree with what you stated in your last paragraph.  Would that I had known that years aog, it might have saved me a lot of problems.  However, then I would not have learned all the truths I did find thru Eckankar, and for that I'm eternally grateful.  I'm right where I'm supposed to be, in the perfect place and in the perfect moment.
                   
                  Namaste,
                   
                  Ma-li

                  --- On Sat, 12/6/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                  From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 11:52 AM

                  Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said
                  below...

                  "I agree that a lot can be learned from
                  others, while at the same time I suspect
                  there is a not so well noticed connection
                  between how people search and what they
                  actually find.

                  What I mean to say is that I believe one's
                  paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
                  happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
                  replaced by another. A better one. Because
                  the former seems to become old and like all
                  the juice squeezed out of the lemon."

                  Due to the temporary nature of this world and everything in it, all
                  things have their place and value in time. As individual consciousness
                  evolves, old concepts no longer fit and the Soul moves on to newer and
                  greater horizons. It's what we all did when we rejected the idea of an
                  infallible master. I myself, realized that there is only God - Soul
                  and nothing in-between. Anyone who declares themselves an intermediary
                  between God and Soul is a fraud.

                  Regards
                  Liska

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > "My primary goal is personal experience,
                  > but reading other people's works helps focus
                  > my attention on something greater than day
                  > to day mundane existence."
                  >
                  > I agree that a lot can be learned from
                  > others, while at the same time I suspect
                  > there is a not so well noticed connection
                  > between how people search and what they
                  > actually find.
                  >
                  > What I mean to say is that I believe one's
                  > paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
                  > happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
                  > replaced by another. A better one. Because
                  > the former seems to become old and like all
                  > the juice squeezed out of the lemon.
                  >
                  > Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
                  > seem to leave the same old, same old over
                  > and over like a broken record.
                  >
                  > This is one of the traps I have found myself
                  > in time and time again. By limiting myself to
                  > only certain specific paradigms, listening and
                  > reading only certain specific authors and then
                  > thinking along only certain specific lines.
                  >
                  > I like to meet a variety of different people &
                  > hear about a variety of different experiences.
                  > In fact, I think if one would consider how many
                  > different people there are in the world, and that
                  > much potential for experience were available to
                  > them, it might not sound too impossible how
                  > one part of the "universe" could answer another
                  > part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
                  > ships.
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: drubezarn
                  > e <drubezarne@ ...>
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about
                  >
                  > Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as
                  >
                  > intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning
                  >
                  > your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere
                  >
                  > in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden
                  >
                  > thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the
                  >
                  > limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to
                  >
                  > imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem
                  >
                  > honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or
                  >
                  > boost their egos.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For
                  >
                  > example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in
                  >
                  > meditation/contempl ation. On the inner planes, thinking and
                  >
                  > visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when
                  >
                  > assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because
                  >
                  > they are no longer necessary.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance
                  >
                  > state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the
                  >
                  > body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
                  > wareness. However,
                  >
                  > I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to
                  >
                  > place my attention on the formless.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of
                  >
                  > the best explanations for our existence.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books
                  >
                  > and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's
                  >
                  > books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book
                  >
                  > motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's
                  >
                  > works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day
                  >
                  > mundane existence.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to
                  >
                  > learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is
                  >
                  > there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role
                  >
                  > is to practice and develop my own style of playing.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I
                  >
                  > don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all
                  >
                  > spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I
                  >
                  > don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking
                  >
                  > Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the
                  >
                  > extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore
                  >
                  > and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for
                  >
                  > one reason or another."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select
                  >
                  > individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke
                  >
                  > up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think
                  >
                  > selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  > Liska
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "prometheus_ 973"
                  >
                  > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; Hello Ma-li,
                  >
                  > &gt; I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                  >
                  > &gt; thing I can't recommend anything to
                  >
                  > &gt; read, but I find many of the resources
                  >
                  > &gt; listed on this site to be interesting.
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; As far as believing these and other sources
                  >
                  > &gt; of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                  >
                  > &gt; and everything by the so called "experts." I
                  >
                  > &gt; definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                  >
                  > &gt; seems to be selling something for one reason
                  >
                  > &gt; or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                  >
                  > &gt; subjective, and is found within by each Soul.
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; Ma-li wrote:
                  >
                  > &gt; [snip]
                  >
                  > &gt; "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                  >
                  > &gt; handled it when you decided to leave, and
                  >
                  > &gt; especially what did you do about the spiritual
                  >
                  > &gt; exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                  >
                  > &gt
                  > ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                  >
                  > &gt; writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                  >
                  > &gt; left but God?"
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                  >
                  > &gt; many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                  >
                  > &gt; sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                  >
                  > &gt; it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                  >
                  > &gt; and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                  >
                  > &gt; every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                  >
                  > &gt; opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                  >
                  > &gt; one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                  >
                  > &gt; I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                  >
                  > &gt; my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                  >
                  > &gt; believable to others.
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; However, I've always known and had proof of
                  >
                  > &gt; Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                  >
                  > &gt; I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                  >
                  > &gt; of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                  >
                  > &gt; and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                  >
                  > &gt; amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                  >
                  > &gt; or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                  >
                  > &gt; long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                  >
                  > &gt; because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                  >
                  > &gt; in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                  >
                  > &gt; HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                  >
                  > &gt; can experience a
                  > Oneness with All There Is and a
                  >
                  > &gt; Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                  >
                  > &gt; the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                  >
                  > &gt; up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                  >
                  > &gt; new is it?
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                  >
                  > &gt; beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                  >
                  > &gt; the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                  >
                  > &gt; the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                  >
                  > &gt; warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                  >
                  > &gt; IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                  >
                  > &gt; the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                  >
                  > &gt; IT IS ME, and I AM IT."
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                  >
                  > &gt; and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                  >
                  > &gt; observing Nature is very contemplative and
                  >
                  > &gt; peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                  >
                  > &gt; The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                  >
                  > &gt; and beyond and into other times as does reading
                  >
                  > &gt; about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                  >
                  > &gt; know about how we became who we are and
                  >
                  > &gt; what we think we are in order to know more
                  >
                  > &gt; about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                  >
                  > &gt; about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
                  > s
                  >
                  > &gt; from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                  >
                  > &gt; and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                  >
                  > &gt; If someone would care to share their experiences
                  >
                  > &gt; and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                  >
                  > &gt; can use my private email if you'd prefer."
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                  >
                  > &gt; Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                  >
                  > &gt; buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                  >
                  > &gt; because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                  >
                  > &gt; Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                  >
                  > &gt; giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                  >
                  > &gt; I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                  >
                  > &gt; give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                  >
                  > &gt; after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                  >
                  > &gt; I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                  >
                  > &gt; and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                  >
                  > &gt; many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                  >
                  > &gt; a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                  >
                  > &gt; me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                  >
                  > &gt; reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                  >
                  > &gt; same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; [snip]
                  >
                  > &gt; Ma-li (also) wrote:
                  >
                  > &gt; "...Then the doubts
                  > and mental processes begin
                  >
                  > &gt; working until he's got himself almost convinced
                  >
                  > &gt; he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                  >
                  > &gt; to go back and change answers because he also
                  >
                  > &gt; feels he did the best he could.
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; What does he do to fill the empty space?"
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                  >
                  > &gt; (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                  >
                  > &gt; it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                  >
                  > &gt; Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                  >
                  > &gt; middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                  >
                  > &gt; Masters in the making.
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; When one follows another they give up their ability
                  >
                  > &gt; to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                  >
                  > &gt; give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                  >
                  > &gt; a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                  >
                  > &gt; Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                  >
                  > &gt; Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                  >
                  > &gt; No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >
                  > &gt; Prometheus
                  >
                  > &gt;
                  >


                • Ma-li
                  Thank you, Mish, and I will take time to just enjoy the empty spaces.  I have a feeling they won t be around much longer. lol  Haven t read the books you
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
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                    Thank you, Mish, and I will take time to just enjoy the empty spaces.  I have a feeling they won't be around much longer. lol  Haven't read the books you recommend, but will find them one day soon.
                     
                    Re: tests in college....those were the days.lol  I did just what you did....left the others to sit and stew while I was out enjoying what the day had to offer.  Funny how the faster I did a test the better score I received.
                     
                    Namaste
                     
                    Ma-li

                    --- On Fri, 12/5/08, mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                    From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 8:16 AM

                    Hello Ma-li!

                    I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces,
                    what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in
                    one hour, reminded me of my college days! Actually, I
                    remember a few occasions when taking an exam that I
                    did actually finish quite early . . . and I remember some
                    self-doubts about why I finished it so quickly while others
                    were still laboring over the exam. What did I do?? I turned
                    the exam in and left the room! And then I did sort of a
                    happy dance outside, glad to be free of that exam room . . .
                    and how did I do? Well, I did quite well, because I had
                    aced those exams, and I was free to go on to the next
                    thing . . . and being a college student, I remember heading
                    to the beach with some friends for one time and having so
                    much fun. Can't quite remember on the other occasions, but
                    if it was just before school break, I probably got an early
                    start for home! So I guess my message is to trust yourself! : )

                    Empty spaces are a luxury really, but they often come at a
                    hard time, so there can be the feeling of loss . . . and we
                    want to quickly fill it up again with something else. I think
                    it is good to just take one's time and find things that are of
                    interest. I remember one time in my life when I had to sort
                    of re-invent myself. Every morning I'd ask myself what it
                    was that I wanted and needed to do with my life to make
                    myself happy. Happiness is so essential--it is not selfish to
                    want to seek this IMO. My goals had to be reasonable and
                    attainable goals--that was one stipulation I placed on myself.
                    I finally defined what it was I wanted and wanted to do and
                    then I looked for the ways to accomplish it all, one by one.

                    I guess what I'm saying you have to ask yourself what it is
                    you need and then find the ways to have it. But take your
                    time and enjoy the freedom of those empty spaces because
                    they allow you freedom for introspection which is needed to
                    take the next steps--all by your own choices and decisions!

                    Good luck! And I'd like to offer a couple of books for reading
                    as well. One member of our site who left eckankar after 30
                    years found Jed McKenna's book "Spiritual Enlightenment, the
                    Damnest Thing" to greatly help her to handle the void. She
                    still says it is the best book! I also like Sam Harris' book "The
                    End of Faith", and also enjoyed Bill Moyers TV series on "On Faith
                    and Reason" to be quite valuable. You can google for the Bill
                    Moyers series to find and read the transcripts.

                    Mish

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Non ekster et al,
                    >  
                    > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm living in the Now all
                    the time. However, on another level, I think/feel that I should be doing/being something
                    more than just being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the student who
                    finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for the other 2 hours...just sit there
                    quietly, leave the room, or go back over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it
                    doesn't feel right that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                    working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up the test, but he
                    doesn't want to go back and change answers because he also feels he did the best he
                    could.  What does he do to fill the empty space?
                    >  
                    > Namaste
                    >  
                    > Ma-li
                    >
                    > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Non ekster <eckchains@. ..>
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                    > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
                    >
                    > Non ekster ; )
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
                    > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello All,
                    > >
                    > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
                    > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
                    > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
                    > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
                    > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
                    > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
                    > >
                    > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
                    > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
                    > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
                    > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                    > > left but God?
                    > >
                    > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
                    > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
                    > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
                    > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
                    > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
                    > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
                    > >
                    > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
                    > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
                    > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                    > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
                    > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
                    > > you'd prefer.
                    > >
                    > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
                    > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
                    > > the answers.
                    > >
                    > > Namaste
                    > >
                    > > Ma-li
                    > >
                    >


                  • Ma-li
                    Liska, I haven t checked these out yet, but will soon.  Still trying to get all of Ford s ebook read, but have to do it slowly since it really hurts my eyes
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
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                      Liska, I haven't checked these out yet, but will soon.  Still trying to get all of Ford's ebook read, but have to do it slowly since it really hurts my eyes to read on the monitor.
                       
                      Thanks bunches.
                       
                      Namaste
                       
                      Ma-li

                      --- On Thu, 12/4/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                      From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 1:30 PM

                      Ma-li,
                      Have you checked out the free Henry T. Laurency .pdf books?

                      http://laurency. com/

                      I also recommend Neville Goddard, Joel Goldsmith, Ramana Maharshi, and
                      Jiddu Krishnamurti.

                      Regards
                      Liska

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li
                      <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Non ekster et al,
                      >  
                      > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm
                      living in the Now all the time. However, on another level, I
                      think/feel that I should be doing/being something more than just
                      being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the
                      student who finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for
                      the other 2 hours...just sit there quietly, leave the room, or go back
                      over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it doesn't feel right
                      that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                      working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up
                      the test, but he doesn't want to go back and change answers because he
                      also feels he did the best he could.  What does he do to fill the
                      empty space?
                      >  
                      > Namaste
                      >  
                      > Ma-li
                      >
                      > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@. ..> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Non ekster <eckchains@. ..>
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                      > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
                      >
                      > Non ekster ; )
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
                      > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello All,
                      > >
                      > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
                      > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
                      > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
                      > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
                      > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
                      > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
                      > >
                      > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
                      > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
                      > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
                      > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                      > > left but God?
                      > >
                      > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
                      > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
                      > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
                      > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
                      > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
                      > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
                      > >
                      > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
                      > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
                      > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                      > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
                      > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
                      > > you'd prefer.
                      > >
                      > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
                      > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
                      > > the answers.
                      > >
                      > > Namaste
                      > >
                      > > Ma-li
                      > >
                      >


                    • Ma-li
                      Hi Prometheus,   Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable comments.  I do appreciate them, and can relate to what you said.   I too wanted to believe
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Prometheus,
                         
                        Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable comments.  I do appreciate them, and can relate to what you said.
                         
                        I too wanted to believe all the malarky that was being fed to me, and had problems buying into what HK was saying.  As Eckankar evolved/devolved under HK, it seemed to be leaving me with an empty feeling.  I could get the same stories from any 5th grader.  I made that comment to another Eckist, and was told HK had to make it simpler for those just "coming in".  If those "coming in" were supposed to be already more spiritually advanced than those of us who had been there a long time, then why dumb it down.  Just one more thing that didn't set well with me.
                         
                        As for the spiritual exercises, apparently I didn't do them in an acceptable manner, but that was the way that was comfortable to me.  I haven't done them in quite a while now, and eventually will invent my own means of doing spiritual contemplation, if need be.  I spend a lot of time in Nature....gonna go out on a limb here and tell you that my entire life has been involved with helping animals in need...from the newborn to the ancient with special needs that require almost constant care.  I learned more about love from these animals than I ever did from HK, and feel blessed to have been given so much unconditional love and trust by beings usually untrusting of humans.  As each one passed over, it broke my heart, but I knew they were in a better place.  At least they had experienced love on this plane, and I'm sure it helped their Soul progression too. They were as close to me as my own heartbeat, and still are even tho' they have gone.
                         
                        By giving up this spiritual path, I feel more free to be me, and to know and love all life whatever the form.  Still have to work on the rattlesnakes and flies however. lol
                         
                        I think I bought into Eckankar for as long as I did because it seemed like the right thing to do at the time.  As the dis-satisfatico grew, I knew I had to be true to myself first and foremost.  Maybe it was the challenge of attaining initiations, I'm not certain.  I just know that somewhere along the line they ceased to matter, and my eyes were opening to see more about the spiritual path I was on. Didn't like what I saw, but didn't know how to get off the path.   I have done lots of "outside" reading over the years, and that has been instrumental in my eyes being opened.  Then there was that little sticking point that has always galled me........needing a mediator to connect with God.  If I didn't believe priests, ministers etc. could do it,  why should the Mahanta be any different???  There was no difference, and I finally "saw the light".
                         
                        My test has been taken, and I've completed it long before the others.  I have no doubts, and don't need to recheck my answers.  I won't sit around and wait for the others to finish, but will walk out the door into a world of fun, love, joy, and totally of my making.  I am the captain of my own ship now, and feel certain I will attain whatever spiritual goals I set for myself.
                         
                        I have been feeling guilty about not feeling guilty about leaving Eckankar.  It was guilt that had me wondering what to do next.  Now, thanks to all the wonderful posts by you, etznab, aftrek, mish, the guilt has gone away.  You all took the plunge with your eyes wide open, went thru the "what now" period, and emerged on the other side as full, complete human beings in charge of your own destinies.  May I join your ranks? 


                        --- On Thu, 12/4/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:26 PM

                        Hello Ma-li,
                        I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                        thing I can't recommend anything to
                        read, but I find many of the resources
                        listed on this site to be interesting.

                        As far as believing these and other sources
                        of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                        and everything by the so called "experts." I
                        definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                        seems to be selling something for one reason
                        or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                        subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

                        Ma-li wrote:
                        [snip]
                        "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                        handled it when you decided to leave, and
                        especially what did you do about the spiritual
                        exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                        Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                        writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                        left but God?"

                        *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                        many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                        sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                        it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                        and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                        every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                        opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                        one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                        I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                        my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                        believable to others.

                        However, I've always known and had proof of
                        Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                        I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                        of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                        and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                        amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                        or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                        long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                        because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                        in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                        HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                        can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
                        Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                        the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                        up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                        new is it?

                        "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                        beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                        the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                        the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                        warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                        IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                        the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                        IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

                        *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                        and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                        observing Nature is very contemplative and
                        peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                        The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                        and beyond and into other times as does reading
                        about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                        know about how we became who we are and
                        what we think we are in order to know more
                        about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

                        "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                        about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
                        from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                        and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                        If someone would care to share their experiences
                        and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                        can use my private email if you'd prefer."

                        *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                        Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                        buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                        because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                        Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                        giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                        I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                        give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                        after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                        I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                        and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                        many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                        a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                        me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                        reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                        same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

                        [snip]
                        Ma-li (also) wrote:
                        "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                        working until he's got himself almost convinced
                        he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                        to go back and change answers because he also
                        feels he did the best he could.

                        What does he do to fill the empty space?"

                        *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                        (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                        it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                        Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                        middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                        Masters in the making.

                        When one follows another they give up their ability
                        to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                        give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                        a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                        Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                        Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                        No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

                        Prometheus



                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Ma-li, It appears that you have already joined our ranks! You sound like an old friend where the passage of time and space becomes irrelevant to the
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Ma-li,
                          It appears that you have already joined
                          our ranks! You sound like an old friend
                          where the passage of time and space
                          becomes irrelevant to the friendship,
                          the journey, and to the connection of Soul.

                          I enjoyed reading of your experiences
                          and insights too. Yes, I too have mixed
                          feelings about flies and rattlesnakes.
                          I usually give them fair warning first and
                          offer them an out before taking preventative
                          (extreme) measures. The thing is it startles
                          me, at times, when other (friendly) snakes
                          sneak up on me, or I "discover" them. It's
                          actually kind of funny, but I scold them
                          for scaring me or for me scaring myself!

                          Prometheus


                          Ma-li wrote:
                          Hi Prometheus,

                          Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable
                          comments. I do appreciate them, and can relate
                          to what you said.

                          I too wanted to believe all the malarky that was
                          being fed to me, and had problems buying into
                          what HK was saying. As Eckankar evolved/devolved
                          under HK, it seemed to be leaving me with an empty
                          feeling. I could get the same stories from any 5th
                          grader. I made that comment to another Eckist,
                          and was told HK had to make it simpler for those
                          just "coming in". If those "coming in" were supposed
                          to be already more spiritually advanced than those
                          of us who had been there a long time, then why
                          dumb it down. Just one more thing that didn't set
                          well with me.

                          As for the spiritual exercises, apparently I didn't
                          do them in an acceptable manner, but that was
                          the way that was comfortable to me. I haven't
                          done them in quite a while now, and eventually
                          will invent my own means of doing spiritual
                          contemplation, if need be. I spend a lot of time
                          in Nature....gonna go out on a limb here and tell
                          you that my entire life has been involved with
                          helping animals in need...from the newborn to
                          the ancient with special needs that require almost
                          constant care. I learned more about love from
                          these animals than I ever did from HK, and feel
                          blessed to have been given so much unconditional
                          love and trust by beings usually untrusting of humans.
                          As each one passed over, it broke my heart, but
                          I knew they were in a better place. At least they
                          had experienced love on this plane, and I'm sure
                          it helped their Soul progression too. They were as
                          close to me as my own heartbeat, and still are even
                          tho' they have gone.

                          By giving up this spiritual path, I feel more free
                          to be me, and to know and love all life whatever
                          the form. Still have to work on the rattlesnakes
                          and flies however. lol

                          I think I bought into Eckankar for as long as I did
                          because it seemed like the right thing to do at the
                          time. As the dis-satisfatico grew, I knew I had to
                          be true to myself first and foremost. Maybe it was
                          the challenge of attaining initiations, I'm not certain.
                          I just know that somewhere along the line they ceased
                          to matter, and my eyes were opening to see more
                          about the spiritual path I was on. Didn't like what
                          I saw, but didn't know how to get off the path.
                          I have done lots of "outside" reading over the years,
                          and that has been instrumental in my eyes being
                          opened. Then there was that little sticking point
                          that has always galled me........needing a mediator
                          to connect with God. If I didn't believe priests,
                          ministers etc. could do it, why should the Mahanta
                          be any different??? There was no difference, and
                          I finally "saw the light".

                          My test has been taken, and I've completed it long
                          before the others. I have no doubts, and don't need
                          to recheck my answers. I won't sit around and wait
                          for the others to finish, but will walk out the door
                          into a world of fun, love, joy, and totally of my making.
                          I am the captain of my own ship now, and feel certain
                          I will attain whatever spiritual goals I set for myself.

                          I have been feeling guilty about not feeling guilty
                          about leaving Eckankar. It was guilt that had me
                          wondering what to do next. Now, thanks to all the
                          wonderful posts by you, etznab, aftrek, mish, the
                          guilt has gone away. You all took the plunge with
                          your eyes wide open, went thru the "what now"
                          period, and emerged on the other side as full,
                          complete human beings in charge of your own
                          destinies. May I join your ranks?

                          ************************************************
                          prometheus wrote:

                          Hello Ma-li,
                          I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                          thing I can't recommend anything to
                          read, but I find many of the resources
                          listed on this site to be interesting.

                          As far as believing these and other sources
                          of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                          and everything by the so called "experts." I
                          definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                          seems to be selling something for one reason
                          or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                          subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

                          Ma-li wrote:
                          [snip]
                          "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                          handled it when you decided to leave, and
                          especially what did you do about the spiritual
                          exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                          Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                          writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                          left but God?"

                          *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                          many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                          sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                          it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                          and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                          every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                          opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                          one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                          I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                          my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                          believable to others.

                          However, I've always known and had proof of
                          Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                          I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                          of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                          and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                          amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                          or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                          long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                          because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                          in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                          HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                          can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
                          Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                          the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                          up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                          new is it?

                          "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                          beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                          the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                          the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                          warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                          IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                          the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                          IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

                          *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                          and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                          observing Nature is very contemplative and
                          peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                          The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                          and beyond and into other times as does reading
                          about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                          know about how we became who we are and
                          what we think we are in order to know more
                          about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

                          "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                          about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
                          from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                          and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                          If someone would care to share their experiences
                          and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                          can use my private email if you'd prefer."

                          *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                          Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                          buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                          because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                          Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                          giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                          I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                          give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                          after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                          I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                          and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                          many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                          a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                          me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                          reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                          same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

                          [snip]
                          Ma-li (also) wrote:
                          "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                          working until he's got himself almost convinced
                          he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                          to go back and change answers because he also
                          feels he did the best he could.

                          What does he do to fill the empty space?"

                          *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                          (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                          it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                          Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                          middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                          Masters in the making.

                          When one follows another they give up their ability
                          to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                          give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                          a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                          Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                          Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                          No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

                          Prometheus
                        • drubezarne
                          Hi Leanne, I think Ford s statements about Hu and Aum might be valid here. In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson, he says... I would ven­ture that
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 7, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Leanne, I think Ford's statements about Hu and Aum might be valid here.

                            In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson, he says...

                            "I would ven­ture that God has no pref­er­ence and al­so that all
                            sounds and words are part of ALL THAT IS, and serve equal­ly well in
                            gar­ner­ing God's at­ten­tion."

                            and...

                            "The im­por­tant point is that all sounds or mantras can en­able the
                            in­di­vid­ual to tran­scend the phys­ical di­men­sion and
                            ex­pe­ri­ence the ec­stat­ic states and the in­ner planes...They all
                            work and can en­able the in­divid­ual to hear the re­mark­able and
                            awe-in­spir­ing sounds of the in­ner worlds. As­crib­ing greater
                            mag­ic to one sound or mantra over an­oth­er is much like ar­gu­ing
                            whose God is great­est. It is a mean­ing­less de­bate for ev­ery­thing
                            is part of the ONE. Fur­ther, when the prac­ti­tion­er has had some
                            ex­pe­ri­ence with these mantras and the in­ner ex­pe­ri­ences that
                            follow, she will come to the re­al­iza­tion that these are not
                            out­side sounds; they are a part of her."

                            and...

                            "The Va­lid­ity of Spir­itu­al Ex­er­cis­es. The ba­sic spir­itu­al
                            ex­er­cise of Eck, which Paul called "the easy way," is al­so the
                            ba­sic ex­er­cise of the Shabd Yo­ga tra­di­tion, and, as such,
                            car­ries with it the in­trin­sic va­lid­ity of this prac­tice in the
                            Yo­ga tradi­tion. In these teach­ings, the HU is sung "Hooooooo,"
                            where­as in Eck­ankar, it is sung "Hu­uu­uu­uuu" or "hugh" — Paul's
                            ef­fort to make it unique. The dif­fer­ence is of no re­al
                            sig­nif­icance. Each sound will work and should be con­tin­ued if it
                            works for you."

                            As to Ek Onkar; it is a Sikh term that means "God is One." Julian
                            Johnson's Path of the Masters mentions it. If you downloaded the .pdf
                            book, you can do a search for it in Acrobat.

                            Regards,
                            Liska

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Leanne Thompson
                            <le_anne_thompson@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Does anyone still HU now that they left eckankar? I use HU-OM or
                            other sanskrit words.
                            >  
                            > BTW in a book of meditation by yogi bhajan I found EK OM KAR. I
                            think it was a mantra or something like  that. Has anyone heard of that?
                            >  
                            > Thanks
                            > Leanne
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Liska and All, It s interesting that Ford said, They all work and can enable the individual to hear the remarkable and awe-inspiring sounds of the INNER
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 7, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello Liska and All,
                              It's interesting that Ford said,
                              "They all work and can enable
                              the individual to hear the remarkable
                              and awe-inspiring sounds of the INNER
                              WORLDS. Ascribing greater MAGIC to
                              one sound or mantra over another is
                              much like arguing whose God is greatest."
                              [MY CAPS]

                              So, is Ford saying that these are Magical
                              sounds/mantras that have "intrinsic validity."
                              Isn't that a contradiction of terms? Or, is
                              he saying that most people see these as
                              magical words/sounds, but that these
                              have "intrinsic validity" in Shabd Yoga?
                              However, does Shabd Yoga have validity?
                              How much or with what? BTW- I wonder
                              which planes or "inner worlds" Ford was
                              referring to?

                              IMO it does seem that there is something
                              different with the vibratory rate of this
                              sound/mantra (HU) that makes it more
                              unique than the other (AUM), or Not!
                              Perhaps there are Universal sounds/mantras,
                              as well as, more specific ones that match
                              or enhance each person's/Soul's vibratory
                              rate of consciousness. And, this is why one
                              sound works better for one person than with
                              another person.

                              The other quote you gave by Ford was:

                              "The Validity of Spiritual Exercises.

                              The basic spiritual exercise of Eck, which Paul
                              called "the easy way," is also the basic exercise
                              of the Shabd Yoga tradition, and, as such, carries
                              with it the INTRINSIC VALIDITY of this practice
                              in the Yoga tradition. In these teachings, the
                              HU is sung "Hooooooo," where as in Eckankar,
                              it is sung "Huuuuuuu" or "hugh." [MY CAPS]

                              Personally, I often have trouble accepting any
                              promises and beliefs from any religion as valid
                              and, especially, from those religions that have
                              "Living Masters" who have set themselves up as
                              Masters/Godmen/Saviours/Prophets.

                              It is interesting about the HU being sung as
                              "Hooooooo" (who) and "Huuuuuuu" (hue/hugh).

                              I knew ECKists who would sing HU as "Hooooooo"
                              (who)! It was very strange and they sang loud!!!
                              I never did ask them why they did this, but they
                              believed they were part of Harry's inner (Inner)
                              Circle and were more special than most of his
                              RESAs. They had a small following at the major
                              EK Seminars and were very aloof towards the
                              RESA structure and toward rules and guidelines
                              in general. They usually ignored these or acted
                              As If they had no knowledge of these ESC approved
                              procedures. Delusion runs rampant in ECKankar!

                              Prometheus



                              Liska wrote:
                              Hi Leanne, I think Ford's statements about
                              Hu and Aum might be valid here.

                              In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson,
                              he says...

                              "I would venture that God has no preference
                              and also that all sounds and words are part
                              of ALL THAT IS, and serve equally well in
                              garnering God's attention."

                              and...

                              "The important point is that all sounds or
                              mantras can enable the individual to transcend
                              the physical dimension and experience the
                              ecstatic states and the inner planes... They
                              all work and can enable the individual to hear
                              the remarkable and awe-inspiring sounds
                              of the inner worlds. Ascribing greater magic
                              to one sound or mantra over another is much
                              like arguing whose God is greatest. It is a
                              meaningless debate for everything is part of
                              the ONE. Further, when the practitioner has
                              had some experience with these mantras and
                              the inner experiences that follow, she will
                              come to the realization that these are not
                              outside sounds; they are a part of her."

                              and...

                              "The Validity of Spiritual Exercises. The basic
                              spiritual exercise of Eck, which Paul called
                              "the easy way," is also the basic exercise of
                              the Shabd Yoga tradition, and, as such, carries
                              with it the INTRINSIC VALIDITY of this practice
                              in the Yoga tradition. In these teachings, the
                              HU is sung "Hooooooo," where as in Eckankar,
                              it is sung "Huuuuuuuu" or "hugh" — Paul's
                              effort to make it unique. The difference is of
                              no real significance. Each sound will work and
                              should be continued if it works for you."

                              ME: [My Caps]

                              As to Ek Onkar; it is a Sikh term that means
                              "God is One." Julian Johnson's Path of the Masters
                              mentions it. If you downloaded the .pdf
                              book, you can do a search for it in Acrobat.

                              Regards,
                              Liska


                              Leanne wrote:

                              Does anyone still HU now that they left eckankar?
                              I use HU-OM or other sanskrit words.

                              BTW in a book of meditation by yogi bhajan I found
                              EK OM KAR. I think it was a mantra or something like
                              that. Has anyone heard of that?

                              Thanks
                              Leanne
                              >
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