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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?

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  • Ma-li
    Hello Non ekster et al,   It s not so much that I m searching for anything, it s more like I m living in the Now all the time. However, on another level, I
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 4, 2008
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      Hello Non ekster et al,
       
      It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm living in the Now all the time. However, on another level, I think/feel that I should be doing/being something more than just being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the student who finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for the other 2 hours...just sit there quietly, leave the room, or go back over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it doesn't feel right that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want to go back and change answers because he also feels he did the best he could.  What does he do to fill the empty space?
       
      Namaste
       
      Ma-li

      --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@...> wrote:
      From: Non ekster <eckchains@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM

      Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.

      Non ekster ; )

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
      <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      >
      > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
      > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
      > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
      > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
      > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
      > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
      >
      > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
      > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
      > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
      > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
      > left but God?
      >
      > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
      > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
      > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
      > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
      > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
      > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
      >
      > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
      > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
      > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
      > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
      > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
      > you'd prefer.
      >
      > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
      > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
      > the answers.
      >
      > Namaste
      >
      > Ma-li
      >


    • drubezarne
      Ma-li, Have you checked out the free Henry T. Laurency .pdf books? http://laurency.com/ I also recommend Neville Goddard, Joel Goldsmith, Ramana Maharshi, and
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 4, 2008
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        Ma-li,
        Have you checked out the free Henry T. Laurency .pdf books?

        http://laurency.com/

        I also recommend Neville Goddard, Joel Goldsmith, Ramana Maharshi, and
        Jiddu Krishnamurti.

        Regards
        Liska

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li
        <mhstarlings@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Non ekster et al,
        >  
        > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm
        living in the Now all the time. However, on another level, I
        think/feel that I should be doing/being something more than just
        being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the
        student who finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for
        the other 2 hours...just sit there quietly, leave the room, or go back
        over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it doesn't feel right
        that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
        working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up
        the test, but he doesn't want to go back and change answers because he
        also feels he did the best he could.  What does he do to fill the
        empty space?
        >  
        > Namaste
        >  
        > Ma-li
        >
        > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: Non ekster <eckchains@...>
        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
        >
        > Non ekster ; )
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
        > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello All,
        > >
        > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
        > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
        > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
        > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
        > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
        > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
        > >
        > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
        > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
        > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
        > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
        > > left but God?
        > >
        > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
        > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
        > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
        > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
        > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
        > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
        > >
        > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
        > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
        > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
        > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
        > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
        > > you'd prefer.
        > >
        > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
        > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
        > > the answers.
        > >
        > > Namaste
        > >
        > > Ma-li
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Ma-li, I thought I d respond as well. For one thing I can t recommend anything to read, but I find many of the resources listed on this site to be
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 4, 2008
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          Hello Ma-li,
          I thought I'd respond as well. For one
          thing I can't recommend anything to
          read, but I find many of the resources
          listed on this site to be interesting.

          As far as believing these and other sources
          of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
          and everything by the so called "experts." I
          definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
          seems to be selling something for one reason
          or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
          subjective, and is found within by each Soul.



          Ma-li wrote:
          [snip]
          "Would anyone like to share with me how you
          handled it when you decided to leave, and
          especially what did you do about the spiritual
          exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
          Eck Masters never really existed, except in
          writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
          left but God?"



          *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
          many things in ECKankar just didn't make
          sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
          it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
          and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
          every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
          opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
          one dimensional stories didn't help either.
          I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
          my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
          believable to others.

          However, I've always known and had proof of
          Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
          I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
          of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
          and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
          amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
          or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
          long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
          because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
          in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
          HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
          can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
          Contentment that I could never achieve while under
          the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
          up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
          new is it?



          "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
          beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
          the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
          the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
          warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
          IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
          the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
          IT IS ME, and I AM IT."



          *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
          and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
          observing Nature is very contemplative and
          peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
          The past tunes take one back to one's youth
          and beyond and into other times as does reading
          about or watching history on TV. It's good to
          know about how we became who we are and
          what we think we are in order to know more
          about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.



          "All this being said, I don't know what to do
          about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
          from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
          and need to make a choice about what to do next.
          If someone would care to share their experiences
          and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
          can use my private email if you'd prefer."



          *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
          Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
          buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
          because of friends and/or the promise of God-
          Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
          giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
          I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
          give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
          after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
          I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
          and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
          many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
          a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
          me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
          reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
          same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!




          [snip]
          Ma-li (also) wrote:
          "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
          working until he's got himself almost convinced
          he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
          to go back and change answers because he also
          feels he did the best he could.

          What does he do to fill the empty space?"



          *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
          (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
          it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
          Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
          middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
          Masters in the making.

          When one follows another they give up their ability
          to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
          give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
          a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
          Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
          Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
          No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

          Prometheus
        • Leanne Thompson
          Does anyone still HU now that they left eckankar? I use HU-OM or other sanskrit words.   BTW in a book of meditation by yogi bhajan I found EK OM KAR. I think
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 4, 2008
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            Does anyone still HU now that they left eckankar? I use HU-OM or other sanskrit words.
             
            BTW in a book of meditation by yogi bhajan I found EK OM KAR. I think it was a mantra or something like  that. Has anyone heard of that?
             
            Thanks
            Leanne

          • mishmisha9
            Hello Ma-li! I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces, what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in one hour, reminded me of my
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
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              Hello Ma-li!

              I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces,
              what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in
              one hour, reminded me of my college days! Actually, I
              remember a few occasions when taking an exam that I
              did actually finish quite early . . . and I remember some
              self-doubts about why I finished it so quickly while others
              were still laboring over the exam. What did I do?? I turned
              the exam in and left the room! And then I did sort of a
              happy dance outside, glad to be free of that exam room . . .
              and how did I do? Well, I did quite well, because I had
              aced those exams, and I was free to go on to the next
              thing . . . and being a college student, I remember heading
              to the beach with some friends for one time and having so
              much fun. Can't quite remember on the other occasions, but
              if it was just before school break, I probably got an early
              start for home! So I guess my message is to trust yourself! : )

              Empty spaces are a luxury really, but they often come at a
              hard time, so there can be the feeling of loss . . . and we
              want to quickly fill it up again with something else. I think
              it is good to just take one's time and find things that are of
              interest. I remember one time in my life when I had to sort
              of re-invent myself. Every morning I'd ask myself what it
              was that I wanted and needed to do with my life to make
              myself happy. Happiness is so essential--it is not selfish to
              want to seek this IMO. My goals had to be reasonable and
              attainable goals--that was one stipulation I placed on myself.
              I finally defined what it was I wanted and wanted to do and
              then I looked for the ways to accomplish it all, one by one.

              I guess what I'm saying you have to ask yourself what it is
              you need and then find the ways to have it. But take your
              time and enjoy the freedom of those empty spaces because
              they allow you freedom for introspection which is needed to
              take the next steps--all by your own choices and decisions!

              Good luck! And I'd like to offer a couple of books for reading
              as well. One member of our site who left eckankar after 30
              years found Jed McKenna's book "Spiritual Enlightenment, the
              Damnest Thing" to greatly help her to handle the void. She
              still says it is the best book! I also like Sam Harris' book "The
              End of Faith", and also enjoyed Bill Moyers TV series on "On Faith
              and Reason" to be quite valuable. You can google for the Bill
              Moyers series to find and read the transcripts.

              Mish

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Non ekster et al,
              >  
              > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm living in the Now all
              the time. However, on another level, I think/feel that I should be doing/being something
              more than just being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the student who
              finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for the other 2 hours...just sit there
              quietly, leave the room, or go back over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it
              doesn't feel right that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
              working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up the test, but he
              doesn't want to go back and change answers because he also feels he did the best he
              could.  What does he do to fill the empty space?
              >  
              > Namaste
              >  
              > Ma-li
              >
              > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: Non ekster <eckchains@...>
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
              >
              > Non ekster ; )
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
              > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello All,
              > >
              > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
              > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
              > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
              > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
              > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
              > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
              > >
              > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
              > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
              > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
              > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
              > > left but God?
              > >
              > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
              > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
              > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
              > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
              > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
              > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
              > >
              > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
              > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
              > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
              > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
              > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
              > > you'd prefer.
              > >
              > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
              > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
              > > the answers.
              > >
              > > Namaste
              > >
              > > Ma-li
              > >
              >
            • drubezarne
              Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about Eckankar s charlatans and other frauds who want to act as intermediaries between God and Soul.
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
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                Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about
                Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as
                intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning
                your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.

                When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere
                in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden
                thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the
                limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to
                imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem
                honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or
                boost their egos.

                I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For
                example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in
                meditation/contemplation. On the inner planes, thinking and
                visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when
                assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because
                they are no longer necessary.

                The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance
                state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the
                body and moving the consciousness beyond physical awareness. However,
                I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to
                place my attention on the formless.

                Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of
                the best explanations for our existence.

                By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books
                and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's
                books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book
                motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.

                My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's
                works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day
                mundane existence.

                I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to
                learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is
                there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role
                is to practice and develop my own style of playing.

                All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I
                don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all
                spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I
                don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking
                Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the
                extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore
                and test before declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for
                one reason or another."

                Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select
                individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke
                up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think
                selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.

                Regards
                Liska

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Ma-li,
                > I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                > thing I can't recommend anything to
                > read, but I find many of the resources
                > listed on this site to be interesting.
                >
                > As far as believing these and other sources
                > of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                > and everything by the so called "experts." I
                > definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                > seems to be selling something for one reason
                > or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                > subjective, and is found within by each Soul.
                >
                >
                >
                > Ma-li wrote:
                > [snip]
                > "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                > handled it when you decided to leave, and
                > especially what did you do about the spiritual
                > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                > Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                > writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                > left but God?"
                >
                >
                >
                > *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                > many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                > sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                > it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                > and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                > every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                > opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                > one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                > I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                > my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                > believable to others.
                >
                > However, I've always known and had proof of
                > Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                > I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                > of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                > and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                > amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                > or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                > long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                > because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                > in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                > HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                > can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
                > Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                > the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                > up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                > new is it?
                >
                >
                >
                > "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                > beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                > the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                > the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                > warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                > IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                > the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                > IT IS ME, and I AM IT."
                >
                >
                >
                > *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                > and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                > observing Nature is very contemplative and
                > peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                > The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                > and beyond and into other times as does reading
                > about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                > know about how we became who we are and
                > what we think we are in order to know more
                > about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.
                >
                >
                >
                > "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                > about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
                > from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                > and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                > If someone would care to share their experiences
                > and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                > can use my private email if you'd prefer."
                >
                >
                >
                > *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                > Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                > buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                > because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                > Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                > giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                > I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                > give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                > after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                > I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                > and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                > many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                > a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                > me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                > reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                > same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [snip]
                > Ma-li (also) wrote:
                > "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                > working until he's got himself almost convinced
                > he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                > to go back and change answers because he also
                > feels he did the best he could.
                >
                > What does he do to fill the empty space?"
                >
                >
                >
                > *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                > (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                > it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                > Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                > middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                > Masters in the making.
                >
                > When one follows another they give up their ability
                > to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                > give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                > a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                > Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                > Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                > No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
              • etznab@aol.com
                All this being said, I don t know what to do about spiritual exercises, or how to progress from here. It s like I m standing alone once again, and need to
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
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                  "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                  about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
                  from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                  and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                  If someone would care to share their experiences
                  and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                  can use my private email if you'd prefer."

                  Ma-Li,

                  I still think one can ask their questions and the
                  "universe" will answer.

                  Do you like to read books? This is where I get a
                  lot of answers to my questions.

                  There is this book, with a tacky looking cover &
                  a tacky sounding name. Inside the cover though, I
                  found it to be anything but tacky. It's called: Punk
                  Science, Inside the Mind of God, by Dr. Manjir
                  Samanta-Laughton. I saw a book review for it in an
                  HCS Newsletter some time ago. Just read it again
                  for about the third time.

                  Maybe you have another way for connecting and
                  receiving guidance from the universe. I'd say follow
                  that. Take some initiative and don't give up. See
                  what comes.

                  This is what impressed me the most about what
                  were in the teachings of Eckankar. That I didn't
                  have to wait around & depend on other people for
                  the answers to everything. Of course, if you depend
                  on organized religion for all the answers it could be
                  a long wait, IMO. In my experience it was always a
                  form of "giving up initiative" - just plain giving up per-
                  iod! that left
                  me feeling helpless and dependent on
                  some invisible "God" as if it were separate from my-
                  self that I had to wait around for. That was the real
                  bummer for me.

                  I would say try what you know works for you. If
                  the old methods do not work anymore then initiate
                  something new. Don't feel you have to share what
                  methods work for you either, or whether they are
                  approved of and / or work for other people that you
                  know. Find what works for you. That would be my
                  advice. If you have a hobby, or something that you
                  love to do, maybe explore that.

                  Years ago, after I lost something that I loved very
                  much, I realized that I had to replace it with some-
                  thing in order to fill the void. I invested in another
                  love of mine. One that I had since my youth. I had
                  a love for words, and for poetry. So I explored the
                  subject of words. I put a lot of time into that and it
                  grew and grew into something bigger. It took me in-
                  to other areas that I loved just as much, like history
                  in general. Ancient history, history of religions and
                  the history of words became my new friends and I
                  got to know them better and better over the years.
                  For some reason this is what I love to do. I can do
                  it for hours on end and it doesn't feel like "work", if
                  you know what I mean. I don't get paid a dollar for
                  it either, but it brings a lot of satisfaction because, I
                  think, whenever a person develops a talent=2
                  0& moves
                  in the direction of mastership toward something it
                  puts them in a position of being more self sufficient
                  and less dependent on others. It also gives them a
                  gift that they can share with others. IMO.

                  Don't know if this helps, but maybe something
                  to consider at least. If in the future, after you find
                  something that helps, if it's something you would
                  like to share (if you choose) then maybe it could
                  be posted here and it will help somebody else in
                  a similar situation.

                  I know that, for myself, I still feel other voids
                  which need to be filled. Every time I find something
                  that doesn't work the same (or not at all) anymore
                  it leaves a kind of void and I have to do something
                  about it. Maybe nothing has to be done, in every
                  case, but I'd suspect that most people eventually
                  learn to find something better than what they had
                  before.

                  This is kinda long already. Sorry for the length.

                  Etznab

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:26 pm
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?



                  Hello Ma-li,

                  I thought I'd respond as well. For one

                  thing I can't recommend anything to

                  read, but I find many of the resources

                  listed on this site to be interesting.



                  As far as believing these and other sources

                  of info I don't! It's too easily to accept20anything

                  and everything by the so called "experts." I

                  definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone

                  seems to be selling something for one reason

                  or another. The Truth is out there, is usually

                  subjective, and is found within by each Soul.



                  Ma-li wrote:

                  [snip]

                  "Would anyone like to share with me how you

                  handled it when you decided to leave, and

                  especially what did you do about the spiritual

                  exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the

                  Eck Masters never really existed, except in

                  writers' fertile minds, then who/what is

                  left but God?"



                  *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that

                  many things in ECKankar just didn't make

                  sense and didn't add up even though I wanted

                  it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,

                  and in the initiations but it was getting tougher

                  every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s

                  opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and

                  one dimensional stories didn't help either.

                  I found that I had to put blinders on and hold

                  my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound

                  believable to others.



                  However, I've always known and had proof of

                  Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).

                  I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How

                  of many specifics outside of my realm of experience

                  and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk0D

                  amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises

                  or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many

                  long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises

                  because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking

                  in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still

                  HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I

                  can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a

                  Contentment that I could never achieve while under

                  the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give

                  up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing

                  new is it?



                  "God has always been the "real" aspect of my

                  beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,

                  the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,

                  the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the

                  warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.

                  IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for

                  the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.

                  IT IS ME, and I AM IT."



                  *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside

                  and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and

                  observing Nature is very contemplative and

                  peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!

                  The past tunes take one back to one's youth

                  and beyond and into other times as does reading

                  about or watching history on TV. It's good to

                  know about how we became who we are and

                  what we think we are in order to kno
                  w more

                  about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.



                  "All this being said, I don't know what to do

                  about spiritual exercises, or how to progress

                  from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,

                  and need to make a choice about what to do next.

                  If someone would care to share their experiences

                  and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You

                  can use my private email if you'd prefer."



                  *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.

                  Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you

                  buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it

                  because of friends and/or the promise of God-

                  Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble

                  giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.

                  I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would

                  give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies

                  after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after

                  I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together

                  and I saw the con and the realized why there were so

                  many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or

                  a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to

                  me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my

                  reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the

                  same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!



                  [snip]

                  Ma-li (also) wrote:

                  "...Then the doubts and mental processes beg
                  in

                  working until he's got himself almost convinced

                  he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want

                  to go back and change answers because he also

                  feels he did the best he could.



                  What does he do to fill the empty space?"



                  *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time

                  (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole

                  it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!

                  Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'

                  middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own

                  Masters in the making.



                  When one follows another they give up their ability

                  to choose and to discover their own Truth. They

                  give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need

                  a religion to believe in when they can't believe in

                  Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in

                  Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.

                  No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.



                  Prometheus



















                  =0
                  A
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Mish, I probably shoulda read all the threads for today first, before responding to Ma-Li. I think if I had read your response first, I probably would have
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
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                    Mish,

                    I probably shoulda read all the threads for today
                    first, before responding to Ma-Li. I think if I had read
                    your response first, I probably would have said much
                    less myself. It sounded like some good advice to me.
                    What you shared, Mish.

                    Etznab

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 9:16 am
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?



                    Hello Ma-li!



                    I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces,

                    what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in

                    one hour, reminded me of my college days! Actually, I

                    remember a few occasions when taking an exam that I

                    did actually finish quite early . . . and I remember some

                    self-doubts about why I finished it so quickly while others

                    were still laboring over the exam. What did I do?? I turned

                    the exam in and left the room! And then I did sort of a

                    happy dance outside, glad to be free of that exam room . . .

                    and how did I do? Well, I did quite well, because I had

                    aced those exams, and I was free to go on to the next

                    thing . . . and being a college student, I remember heading

                    to the beach with some friends for one time and having so

                    much fun. Can't quite remember on the other occasions, but

                    if it was just before school break, I probably got an early


                    start for home! So I guess my message is to trust yourself! : )



                    Empty spaces are a luxury really, but they often come at a

                    hard time, so there can be the feeling of loss . . . and we

                    want to quickly fill it up again with something else. I think

                    it is good to just take one's time and find things that are of

                    interest. I remember one time in my life when I had to sort

                    of re-invent myself. Every morning I'd ask myself what it

                    was that I wanted and needed to do with my life to make

                    myself happy. Happiness is so essential--it is not selfish to

                    want to seek this IMO. My goals had to be reasonable and

                    attainable goals--that was one stipulation I placed on myself.

                    I finally defined what it was I wanted and wanted to do and

                    then I looked for the ways to accomplish it all, one by one.



                    I guess what I'm saying you have to ask yourself what it is

                    you need and then find the ways to have it. But take your

                    time and enjoy the freedom of those empty spaces because

                    they allow you freedom for introspection which is needed to

                    take the next steps--all by your own choices and decisions!



                    Good luck! And I'd like to offer a couple of books for reading

                    as well. One member of our site who left eckankar after 30

                    years found Jed McKenna's book "Spiritual Enlightenment, the

                    Damnest Thing" to greatly help her to handle
                    the void. She

                    still says it is the best book! I also like Sam Harris' book "The

                    End of Faith", and also enjoyed Bill Moyers TV series on "On Faith

                    and Reason" to be quite valuable. You can google for the Bill

                    Moyers series to find and read the transcripts.



                    Mish



                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li
                    <mhstarlings@...> wrote:

                    >

                    > Hello Non ekster et al,

                    >  

                    > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like
                    I'm living in the Now all

                    the time. However, on another level, I think/feel that I should be
                    doing/being something

                    more than just being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it
                    to the student who

                    finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for the other 2
                    hours...just sit there

                    quietly, leave the room, or go back over the test yet again?  He's in a
                    quandry, and it

                    doesn't feel right that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental
                    processes begin

                    working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up
                    the test, but he

                    doesn't want to go back and change answers because he also feels he did
                    the best he

                    could.  What does he do to fill the empty space?

                    >  

                    > Namaste

                    >  

                    > Ma-li

                    >

                    > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@...> wrote:


                    >

                    > From: Non ekster <eckchains@...>

                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?

                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

                    > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.

                    >

                    > Non ekster ; )

                    >

                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"

                    > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:

                    > >

                    > > Hello All,

                    > >

                    > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined

                    > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years
                    of Eck

                    > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years
                    ago.

                    > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about

                    > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find
                    answers,

                    > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.

                    > >

                    > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when
                    you

                    > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the
                    spiritual

                    > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters
                    never

                    > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then
                    who/what is

                    > > left but God?

                    > >

                    > > God has
                    always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in

                    > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the
                    four-

                    > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                    warm

                    > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that
                    gives

                    > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in

                    > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.

                    > >

                    > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual

                    > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm
                    standing

                    > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do
                    next.

                    > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices
                    from

                    > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email
                    if

                    > > you'd prefer.

                    > >

                    > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much
                    Prometheus for

                    > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they
                    search for

                    > > the answers.

                    > >

                    > > Namaste

                    > >

                    > > Ma-li

                    > >

                    >
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people s works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day mundane existence. I
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 5, 2008
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                      "My primary goal is personal experience,
                      but reading other people's works helps focus
                      my attention on something greater than day
                      to day mundane existence."

                      I agree that a lot can be learned from
                      others, while at the same time I suspect
                      there is a not so well noticed connection
                      between how people search and what they
                      actually find.

                      What I mean to say is that I believe one's
                      paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
                      happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
                      replaced by another. A better one. Because
                      the former seems to become old and like all
                      the juice squeezed out of the lemon.

                      Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
                      seem to leave the same old, same old over
                      and over like a broken record.

                      This is one of the traps I have found myself
                      in time and time again. By limiting myself to
                      only certain specific paradigms, listening and
                      reading only certain specific authors and then
                      thinking along only certain specific lines.

                      I like to meet a variety of different people &
                      hear about a variety of different experiences.
                      In fact, I think if one would consider how many
                      different people there are in the world, and that
                      much potential for experience were available to
                      them, it might not sound too impossible how
                      one part of the "universe" could answer another
                      part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
                      ships.

                      Etznab

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: drubezarn
                      e <drubezarne@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?



                      Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about

                      Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as

                      intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning

                      your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.



                      When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere

                      in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden

                      thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the

                      limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to

                      imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem

                      honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or

                      boost their egos.



                      I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For

                      example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in

                      meditation/contemplation. On the inner planes, thinking and

                      visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when

                      assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because

                      they are no longer necessary.



                      The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance

                      state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the

                      body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
                      wareness. However,

                      I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to

                      place my attention on the formless.



                      Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of

                      the best explanations for our existence.



                      By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books

                      and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's

                      books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book

                      motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.



                      My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's

                      works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day

                      mundane existence.



                      I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to

                      learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is

                      there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role

                      is to practice and develop my own style of playing.



                      All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I

                      don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all

                      spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I

                      don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking

                      Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the

                      extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore

                      and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for

                      one reason or another."



                      Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select

                      individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke

                      up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think

                      selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.



                      Regards

                      Liska



                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"

                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                      >

                      > Hello Ma-li,

                      > I thought I'd respond as well. For one

                      > thing I can't recommend anything to

                      > read, but I find many of the resources

                      > listed on this site to be interesting.

                      >

                      > As far as believing these and other sources

                      > of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything

                      > and everything by the so called "experts." I

                      > definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone

                      > seems to be selling something for one reason

                      > or another. The Truth is out there, is usually

                      > subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > Ma-li wrote:

                      > [snip]

                      > "Would anyone like to share with me how you

                      > handled it when you decided to leave, and

                      > especially what did you do about the spiritual

                      > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the

                      >
                      ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in

                      > writers' fertile minds, then who/what is

                      > left but God?"

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that

                      > many things in ECKankar just didn't make

                      > sense and didn't add up even though I wanted

                      > it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,

                      > and in the initiations but it was getting tougher

                      > every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s

                      > opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and

                      > one dimensional stories didn't help either.

                      > I found that I had to put blinders on and hold

                      > my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound

                      > believable to others.

                      >

                      > However, I've always known and had proof of

                      > Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).

                      > I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How

                      > of many specifics outside of my realm of experience

                      > and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk

                      > amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises

                      > or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many

                      > long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises

                      > because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking

                      > in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still

                      > HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I

                      > can experience a
                      Oneness with All There Is and a

                      > Contentment that I could never achieve while under

                      > the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give

                      > up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing

                      > new is it?

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > "God has always been the "real" aspect of my

                      > beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,

                      > the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,

                      > the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the

                      > warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.

                      > IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for

                      > the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.

                      > IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside

                      > and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and

                      > observing Nature is very contemplative and

                      > peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!

                      > The past tunes take one back to one's youth

                      > and beyond and into other times as does reading

                      > about or watching history on TV. It's good to

                      > know about how we became who we are and

                      > what we think we are in order to know more

                      > about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > "All this being said, I don't know what to do

                      > about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
                      s

                      > from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,

                      > and need to make a choice about what to do next.

                      > If someone would care to share their experiences

                      > and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You

                      > can use my private email if you'd prefer."

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.

                      > Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you

                      > buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it

                      > because of friends and/or the promise of God-

                      > Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble

                      > giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.

                      > I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would

                      > give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies

                      > after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after

                      > I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together

                      > and I saw the con and the realized why there were so

                      > many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or

                      > a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to

                      > me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my

                      > reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the

                      > same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > [snip]

                      > Ma-li (also) wrote:

                      > "...Then the doubts
                      and mental processes begin

                      > working until he's got himself almost convinced

                      > he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want

                      > to go back and change answers because he also

                      > feels he did the best he could.

                      >

                      > What does he do to fill the empty space?"

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time

                      > (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole

                      > it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!

                      > Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'

                      > middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own

                      > Masters in the making.

                      >

                      > When one follows another they give up their ability

                      > to choose and to discover their own Truth. They

                      > give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need

                      > a religion to believe in when they can't believe in

                      > Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in

                      > Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.

                      > No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

                      >

                      > Prometheus

                      >
                    • drubezarne
                      Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said below... I agree that a lot can be learned from others, while at the same time I
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said
                        below...

                        "I agree that a lot can be learned from
                        others, while at the same time I suspect
                        there is a not so well noticed connection
                        between how people search and what they
                        actually find.

                        What I mean to say is that I believe one's
                        paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
                        happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
                        replaced by another. A better one. Because
                        the former seems to become old and like all
                        the juice squeezed out of the lemon."

                        Due to the temporary nature of this world and everything in it, all
                        things have their place and value in time. As individual consciousness
                        evolves, old concepts no longer fit and the Soul moves on to newer and
                        greater horizons. It's what we all did when we rejected the idea of an
                        infallible master. I myself, realized that there is only God - Soul
                        and nothing in-between. Anyone who declares themselves an intermediary
                        between God and Soul is a fraud.

                        Regards
                        Liska

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > "My primary goal is personal experience,
                        > but reading other people's works helps focus
                        > my attention on something greater than day
                        > to day mundane existence."
                        >
                        > I agree that a lot can be learned from
                        > others, while at the same time I suspect
                        > there is a not so well noticed connection
                        > between how people search and what they
                        > actually find.
                        >
                        > What I mean to say is that I believe one's
                        > paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
                        > happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
                        > replaced by another. A better one. Because
                        > the former seems to become old and like all
                        > the juice squeezed out of the lemon.
                        >
                        > Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
                        > seem to leave the same old, same old over
                        > and over like a broken record.
                        >
                        > This is one of the traps I have found myself
                        > in time and time again. By limiting myself to
                        > only certain specific paradigms, listening and
                        > reading only certain specific authors and then
                        > thinking along only certain specific lines.
                        >
                        > I like to meet a variety of different people &
                        > hear about a variety of different experiences.
                        > In fact, I think if one would consider how many
                        > different people there are in the world, and that
                        > much potential for experience were available to
                        > them, it might not sound too impossible how
                        > one part of the "universe" could answer another
                        > part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
                        > ships.
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: drubezarn
                        > e <drubezarne@...>
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about
                        >
                        > Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as
                        >
                        > intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning
                        >
                        > your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere
                        >
                        > in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden
                        >
                        > thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the
                        >
                        > limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to
                        >
                        > imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem
                        >
                        > honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or
                        >
                        > boost their egos.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For
                        >
                        > example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in
                        >
                        > meditation/contemplation. On the inner planes, thinking and
                        >
                        > visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when
                        >
                        > assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because
                        >
                        > they are no longer necessary.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance
                        >
                        > state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the
                        >
                        > body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
                        > wareness. However,
                        >
                        > I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to
                        >
                        > place my attention on the formless.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of
                        >
                        > the best explanations for our existence.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books
                        >
                        > and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's
                        >
                        > books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book
                        >
                        > motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's
                        >
                        > works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day
                        >
                        > mundane existence.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to
                        >
                        > learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is
                        >
                        > there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role
                        >
                        > is to practice and develop my own style of playing.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I
                        >
                        > don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all
                        >
                        > spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I
                        >
                        > don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking
                        >
                        > Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the
                        >
                        > extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore
                        >
                        > and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for
                        >
                        > one reason or another."
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select
                        >
                        > individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke
                        >
                        > up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think
                        >
                        > selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Regards
                        >
                        > Liska
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        >
                        > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Hello Ma-li,
                        >
                        > > I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                        >
                        > > thing I can't recommend anything to
                        >
                        > > read, but I find many of the resources
                        >
                        > > listed on this site to be interesting.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > As far as believing these and other sources
                        >
                        > > of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                        >
                        > > and everything by the so called "experts." I
                        >
                        > > definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                        >
                        > > seems to be selling something for one reason
                        >
                        > > or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                        >
                        > > subjective, and is found within by each Soul.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Ma-li wrote:
                        >
                        > > [snip]
                        >
                        > > "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                        >
                        > > handled it when you decided to leave, and
                        >
                        > > especially what did you do about the spiritual
                        >
                        > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                        >
                        > >
                        > ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                        >
                        > > writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                        >
                        > > left but God?"
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                        >
                        > > many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                        >
                        > > sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                        >
                        > > it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                        >
                        > > and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                        >
                        > > every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                        >
                        > > opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                        >
                        > > one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                        >
                        > > I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                        >
                        > > my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                        >
                        > > believable to others.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > However, I've always known and had proof of
                        >
                        > > Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                        >
                        > > I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                        >
                        > > of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                        >
                        > > and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                        >
                        > > amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                        >
                        > > or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                        >
                        > > long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                        >
                        > > because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                        >
                        > > in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                        >
                        > > HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                        >
                        > > can experience a
                        > Oneness with All There Is and a
                        >
                        > > Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                        >
                        > > the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                        >
                        > > up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                        >
                        > > new is it?
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                        >
                        > > beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                        >
                        > > the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                        >
                        > > the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                        >
                        > > warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                        >
                        > > IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                        >
                        > > the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                        >
                        > > IT IS ME, and I AM IT."
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                        >
                        > > and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                        >
                        > > observing Nature is very contemplative and
                        >
                        > > peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                        >
                        > > The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                        >
                        > > and beyond and into other times as does reading
                        >
                        > > about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                        >
                        > > know about how we became who we are and
                        >
                        > > what we think we are in order to know more
                        >
                        > > about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                        >
                        > > about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
                        > s
                        >
                        > > from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                        >
                        > > and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                        >
                        > > If someone would care to share their experiences
                        >
                        > > and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                        >
                        > > can use my private email if you'd prefer."
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                        >
                        > > Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                        >
                        > > buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                        >
                        > > because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                        >
                        > > Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                        >
                        > > giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                        >
                        > > I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                        >
                        > > give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                        >
                        > > after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                        >
                        > > I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                        >
                        > > and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                        >
                        > > many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                        >
                        > > a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                        >
                        > > me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                        >
                        > > reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                        >
                        > > same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > [snip]
                        >
                        > > Ma-li (also) wrote:
                        >
                        > > "...Then the doubts
                        > and mental processes begin
                        >
                        > > working until he's got himself almost convinced
                        >
                        > > he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                        >
                        > > to go back and change answers because he also
                        >
                        > > feels he did the best he could.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > What does he do to fill the empty space?"
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                        >
                        > > (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                        >
                        > > it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                        >
                        > > Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                        >
                        > > middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                        >
                        > > Masters in the making.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > When one follows another they give up their ability
                        >
                        > > to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                        >
                        > > give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                        >
                        > > a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                        >
                        > > Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                        >
                        > > Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                        >
                        > > No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Prometheus
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Ma-li
                        Liska,   I totally agree with what you stated in your last paragraph.  Would that I had known that years aog, it might have saved me a lot of problems. 
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Liska,
                           
                          I totally agree with what you stated in your last paragraph.  Would that I had known that years aog, it might have saved me a lot of problems.  However, then I would not have learned all the truths I did find thru Eckankar, and for that I'm eternally grateful.  I'm right where I'm supposed to be, in the perfect place and in the perfect moment.
                           
                          Namaste,
                           
                          Ma-li

                          --- On Sat, 12/6/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                          From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 11:52 AM

                          Etznab, your comments are constructive and I concur with what you said
                          below...

                          "I agree that a lot can be learned from
                          others, while at the same time I suspect
                          there is a not so well noticed connection
                          between how people search and what they
                          actually find.

                          What I mean to say is that I believe one's
                          paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
                          happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
                          replaced by another. A better one. Because
                          the former seems to become old and like all
                          the juice squeezed out of the lemon."

                          Due to the temporary nature of this world and everything in it, all
                          things have their place and value in time. As individual consciousness
                          evolves, old concepts no longer fit and the Soul moves on to newer and
                          greater horizons. It's what we all did when we rejected the idea of an
                          infallible master. I myself, realized that there is only God - Soul
                          and nothing in-between. Anyone who declares themselves an intermediary
                          between God and Soul is a fraud.

                          Regards
                          Liska

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > "My primary goal is personal experience,
                          > but reading other people's works helps focus
                          > my attention on something greater than day
                          > to day mundane existence."
                          >
                          > I agree that a lot can be learned from
                          > others, while at the same time I suspect
                          > there is a not so well noticed connection
                          > between how people search and what they
                          > actually find.
                          >
                          > What I mean to say is that I believe one's
                          > paths can come like wishes fulfilled. What
                          > happens, eventually, is that the wish gets
                          > replaced by another. A better one. Because
                          > the former seems to become old and like all
                          > the juice squeezed out of the lemon.
                          >
                          > Not wishing, or taking an initiative, might
                          > seem to leave the same old, same old over
                          > and over like a broken record.
                          >
                          > This is one of the traps I have found myself
                          > in time and time again. By limiting myself to
                          > only certain specific paradigms, listening and
                          > reading only certain specific authors and then
                          > thinking along only certain specific lines.
                          >
                          > I like to meet a variety of different people &
                          > hear about a variety of different experiences.
                          > In fact, I think if one would consider how many
                          > different people there are in the world, and that
                          > much potential for experience were available to
                          > them, it might not sound too impossible how
                          > one part of the "universe" could answer another
                          > part. I suspect initiative at both ends of relation-
                          > ships.
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: drubezarn
                          > e <drubezarne@ ...>
                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                          > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:16 am
                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Prometheus, I agree with you practically 100% of the time about
                          >
                          > Eckankar's charlatans and other frauds who want to act as
                          >
                          > intermediaries between God and Soul. On the other hand, concerning
                          >
                          > your views about all other teachings I would have to disagree.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > When I look closely at certain teachings or teachers who seem sincere
                          >
                          > in their approach to bringing out truth, I detect a subtle golden
                          >
                          > thread that runs throughout history. I'm not interested in the
                          >
                          > limitations of orthodoxy or its insistence that I'm supposed to
                          >
                          > imitate their way of life. Instead, I try to find writers who seem
                          >
                          > honest and aren't looking for followers to make their living from or
                          >
                          > boost their egos.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I take what I think sounds true and test it out for myself. For
                          >
                          > example, I found Neville's "as if" principle extremely effective in
                          >
                          > meditation/contempl ation. On the inner planes, thinking and
                          >
                          > visualization bring about events very quickly and that's when
                          >
                          > assumptions can take me very far. After a while, I drop them because
                          >
                          > they are no longer necessary.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The sound paths such as Sant Mat are helpful for getting into a trance
                          >
                          > state while still retaining awareness. They are useful for numbing the
                          >
                          > body and moving the consciousness beyond physical a
                          > wareness. However,
                          >
                          > I don't believe in focusing on or visualizing a master. I prefer to
                          >
                          > place my attention on the formless.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Laurency's writings about Pythagorean Hylozoics appears to give one of
                          >
                          > the best explanations for our existence.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > By the way, Mish and Liz, I listened to the Jed McKenna audio books
                          >
                          > and found a lot of references to Ramana Maharshi's writings. McKenna's
                          >
                          > books influenced me to look into Maharshi's works. Ford's book
                          >
                          > motivated me to look into Laurency's writings.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > My primary goal is personal experience, but reading other people's
                          >
                          > works helps focus my attention on something greater than day to day
                          >
                          > mundane existence.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I don't believe in masters, but I do believe in teachers. If I want to
                          >
                          > learn how to play piano, I'll find someone to teach me. The teacher is
                          >
                          > there to show me the quickest and best way to get there, while my role
                          >
                          > is to practice and develop my own style of playing.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > All of us on this forum have been victims of the Eckankar racket and I
                          >
                          > don't blame people for becoming cynics and debunkers of all
                          >
                          > spiritual/religious teachings after leaving Eckankar. As for myself, I
                          >
                          > don't plan to spend much more time putting my energies into debunking
                          >
                          > Eckankar. The critical faculty has its uses, but when taken to the
                          >
                          > extreme it kills off idealism. There's a lot more I want to explore
                          >
                          > and test before20declaring "Everyone seems to be selling something for
                          >
                          > one reason or another."
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Call me an optimist, but I believe there are and were a few select
                          >
                          > individuals who just wanted to bring out the truth because they woke
                          >
                          > up to or achieved a certain high state of awareness. So, I don't think
                          >
                          > selling, promoting, and persuading were their goals in life.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Regards
                          >
                          > Liska
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "prometheus_ 973"
                          >
                          > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; Hello Ma-li,
                          >
                          > &gt; I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                          >
                          > &gt; thing I can't recommend anything to
                          >
                          > &gt; read, but I find many of the resources
                          >
                          > &gt; listed on this site to be interesting.
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; As far as believing these and other sources
                          >
                          > &gt; of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                          >
                          > &gt; and everything by the so called "experts." I
                          >
                          > &gt; definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                          >
                          > &gt; seems to be selling something for one reason
                          >
                          > &gt; or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                          >
                          > &gt; subjective, and is found within by each Soul.
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; Ma-li wrote:
                          >
                          > &gt; [snip]
                          >
                          > &gt; "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                          >
                          > &gt; handled it when you decided to leave, and
                          >
                          > &gt; especially what did you do about the spiritual
                          >
                          > &gt; exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                          >
                          > &gt
                          > ; Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                          >
                          > &gt; writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                          >
                          > &gt; left but God?"
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                          >
                          > &gt; many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                          >
                          > &gt; sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                          >
                          > &gt; it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                          >
                          > &gt; and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                          >
                          > &gt; every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                          >
                          > &gt; opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                          >
                          > &gt; one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                          >
                          > &gt; I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                          >
                          > &gt; my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                          >
                          > &gt; believable to others.
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; However, I've always known and had proof of
                          >
                          > &gt; Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                          >
                          > &gt; I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                          >
                          > &gt; of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                          >
                          > &gt; and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                          >
                          > &gt; amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                          >
                          > &gt; or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                          >
                          > &gt; long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                          >
                          > &gt; because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                          >
                          > &gt; in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                          >
                          > &gt; HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                          >
                          > &gt; can experience a
                          > Oneness with All There Is and a
                          >
                          > &gt; Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                          >
                          > &gt; the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                          >
                          > &gt; up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                          >
                          > &gt; new is it?
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                          >
                          > &gt; beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                          >
                          > &gt; the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                          >
                          > &gt; the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                          >
                          > &gt; warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                          >
                          > &gt; IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                          >
                          > &gt; the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                          >
                          > &gt; IT IS ME, and I AM IT."
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                          >
                          > &gt; and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                          >
                          > &gt; observing Nature is very contemplative and
                          >
                          > &gt; peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                          >
                          > &gt; The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                          >
                          > &gt; and beyond and into other times as does reading
                          >
                          > &gt; about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                          >
                          > &gt; know about how we became who we are and
                          >
                          > &gt; what we think we are in order to know more
                          >
                          > &gt; about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                          >
                          > &gt; about spiritual exercises, or how to progres
                          > s
                          >
                          > &gt; from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                          >
                          > &gt; and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                          >
                          > &gt; If someone would care to share their experiences
                          >
                          > &gt; and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                          >
                          > &gt; can use my private email if you'd prefer."
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                          >
                          > &gt; Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                          >
                          > &gt; buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                          >
                          > &gt; because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                          >
                          > &gt; Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                          >
                          > &gt; giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                          >
                          > &gt; I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                          >
                          > &gt; give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                          >
                          > &gt; after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                          >
                          > &gt; I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                          >
                          > &gt; and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                          >
                          > &gt; many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                          >
                          > &gt; a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                          >
                          > &gt; me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                          >
                          > &gt; reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                          >
                          > &gt; same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; [snip]
                          >
                          > &gt; Ma-li (also) wrote:
                          >
                          > &gt; "...Then the doubts
                          > and mental processes begin
                          >
                          > &gt; working until he's got himself almost convinced
                          >
                          > &gt; he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                          >
                          > &gt; to go back and change answers because he also
                          >
                          > &gt; feels he did the best he could.
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; What does he do to fill the empty space?"
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                          >
                          > &gt; (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                          >
                          > &gt; it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                          >
                          > &gt; Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                          >
                          > &gt; middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                          >
                          > &gt; Masters in the making.
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; When one follows another they give up their ability
                          >
                          > &gt; to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                          >
                          > &gt; give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                          >
                          > &gt; a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                          >
                          > &gt; Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                          >
                          > &gt; Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                          >
                          > &gt; No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >
                          > &gt; Prometheus
                          >
                          > &gt;
                          >


                        • Ma-li
                          Thank you, Mish, and I will take time to just enjoy the empty spaces.  I have a feeling they won t be around much longer. lol  Haven t read the books you
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
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                            Thank you, Mish, and I will take time to just enjoy the empty spaces.  I have a feeling they won't be around much longer. lol  Haven't read the books you recommend, but will find them one day soon.
                             
                            Re: tests in college....those were the days.lol  I did just what you did....left the others to sit and stew while I was out enjoying what the day had to offer.  Funny how the faster I did a test the better score I received.
                             
                            Namaste
                             
                            Ma-li

                            --- On Fri, 12/5/08, mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
                            From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 8:16 AM

                            Hello Ma-li!

                            I like your questions about filling in the empty spaces,
                            what to do now? Likening it to finishing a 3 hour test in
                            one hour, reminded me of my college days! Actually, I
                            remember a few occasions when taking an exam that I
                            did actually finish quite early . . . and I remember some
                            self-doubts about why I finished it so quickly while others
                            were still laboring over the exam. What did I do?? I turned
                            the exam in and left the room! And then I did sort of a
                            happy dance outside, glad to be free of that exam room . . .
                            and how did I do? Well, I did quite well, because I had
                            aced those exams, and I was free to go on to the next
                            thing . . . and being a college student, I remember heading
                            to the beach with some friends for one time and having so
                            much fun. Can't quite remember on the other occasions, but
                            if it was just before school break, I probably got an early
                            start for home! So I guess my message is to trust yourself! : )

                            Empty spaces are a luxury really, but they often come at a
                            hard time, so there can be the feeling of loss . . . and we
                            want to quickly fill it up again with something else. I think
                            it is good to just take one's time and find things that are of
                            interest. I remember one time in my life when I had to sort
                            of re-invent myself. Every morning I'd ask myself what it
                            was that I wanted and needed to do with my life to make
                            myself happy. Happiness is so essential--it is not selfish to
                            want to seek this IMO. My goals had to be reasonable and
                            attainable goals--that was one stipulation I placed on myself.
                            I finally defined what it was I wanted and wanted to do and
                            then I looked for the ways to accomplish it all, one by one.

                            I guess what I'm saying you have to ask yourself what it is
                            you need and then find the ways to have it. But take your
                            time and enjoy the freedom of those empty spaces because
                            they allow you freedom for introspection which is needed to
                            take the next steps--all by your own choices and decisions!

                            Good luck! And I'd like to offer a couple of books for reading
                            as well. One member of our site who left eckankar after 30
                            years found Jed McKenna's book "Spiritual Enlightenment, the
                            Damnest Thing" to greatly help her to handle the void. She
                            still says it is the best book! I also like Sam Harris' book "The
                            End of Faith", and also enjoyed Bill Moyers TV series on "On Faith
                            and Reason" to be quite valuable. You can google for the Bill
                            Moyers series to find and read the transcripts.

                            Mish

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Non ekster et al,
                            >  
                            > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm living in the Now all
                            the time. However, on another level, I think/feel that I should be doing/being something
                            more than just being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the student who
                            finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for the other 2 hours...just sit there
                            quietly, leave the room, or go back over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it
                            doesn't feel right that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                            working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up the test, but he
                            doesn't want to go back and change answers because he also feels he did the best he
                            could.  What does he do to fill the empty space?
                            >  
                            > Namaste
                            >  
                            > Ma-li
                            >
                            > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@. ..> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: Non ekster <eckchains@. ..>
                            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
                            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                            > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
                            >
                            > Non ekster ; )
                            >
                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
                            > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello All,
                            > >
                            > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
                            > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
                            > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
                            > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
                            > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
                            > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
                            > >
                            > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
                            > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
                            > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
                            > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                            > > left but God?
                            > >
                            > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
                            > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
                            > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
                            > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
                            > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
                            > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
                            > >
                            > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
                            > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
                            > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                            > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
                            > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
                            > > you'd prefer.
                            > >
                            > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
                            > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
                            > > the answers.
                            > >
                            > > Namaste
                            > >
                            > > Ma-li
                            > >
                            >


                          • Ma-li
                            Liska, I haven t checked these out yet, but will soon.  Still trying to get all of Ford s ebook read, but have to do it slowly since it really hurts my eyes
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
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                              Liska, I haven't checked these out yet, but will soon.  Still trying to get all of Ford's ebook read, but have to do it slowly since it really hurts my eyes to read on the monitor.
                               
                              Thanks bunches.
                               
                              Namaste
                               
                              Ma-li

                              --- On Thu, 12/4/08, drubezarne <drubezarne@...> wrote:
                              From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 1:30 PM

                              Ma-li,
                              Have you checked out the free Henry T. Laurency .pdf books?

                              http://laurency. com/

                              I also recommend Neville Goddard, Joel Goldsmith, Ramana Maharshi, and
                              Jiddu Krishnamurti.

                              Regards
                              Liska

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, Ma-li
                              <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Non ekster et al,
                              >  
                              > It's not so much that I'm searching for anything, it's more like I'm
                              living in the Now all the time. However, on another level, I
                              think/feel that I should be doing/being something more than just
                              being.  Don't know if that makes sense, so I'll liken it to the
                              student who finishes a 3 hour test in an hour.  What does he do for
                              the other 2 hours...just sit there quietly, leave the room, or go back
                              over the test yet again?  He's in a quandry, and it doesn't feel right
                              that he's finished early. Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                              working until he's got himself almost convinced he really screwed up
                              the test, but he doesn't want to go back and change answers because he
                              also feels he did the best he could.  What does he do to fill the
                              empty space?
                              >  
                              > Namaste
                              >  
                              > Ma-li
                              >
                              > --- On Thu, 12/4/08, Non ekster <eckchains@. ..> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: Non ekster <eckchains@. ..>
                              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: What now?
                              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
                              > Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Sometimes it's best to just stop Searching.
                              >
                              > Non ekster ; )
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, "mhstarlings"
                              > <mhstarlings@ ...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello All,
                              > >
                              > > I have come to the place where I was in 1973 before I joined
                              > > Eckankar. The difference is whatI know now, and all the years of Eck
                              > > teachings that have filled those years up to maybe 7 years ago.
                              > > Seven years is how long it's been since I felt "right" about
                              > > remaining in Eckankar, and it's taken me this long to find answers,
                              > > and to make the decision to sever my ties with it.
                              > >
                              > > Would anyone like to share with me how you handled it when you
                              > > decided to leave, and especially what did you do about the spiritual
                              > > exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the Eck Masters never
                              > > really existed, except in writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                              > > left but God?
                              > >
                              > > God has always been the "real" aspect of my beliefs. IT is in
                              > > everything, be it rocks, trees, the two-legged beings, the four-
                              > > legged beings, the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the warm
                              > > Summer breeze that tickles the leaves. IT is the rain that gives
                              > > and sustains life for the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in
                              > > everything. IT IS ME, and I AM IT.
                              > >
                              > > All this being said, I don't know what to do about spiritual
                              > > exercises, or how to progress from here. It's like I'm standing
                              > > alone once again, and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                              > > If someone would care to share their experiences and choices from
                              > > this point, I'd appreciate it. You can use my private email if
                              > > you'd prefer.
                              > >
                              > > Thank you all for being here, and thank you so much Prometheus for
                              > > creating this forum for people like me to find when they search for
                              > > the answers.
                              > >
                              > > Namaste
                              > >
                              > > Ma-li
                              > >
                              >


                            • Ma-li
                              Hi Prometheus,   Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable comments.  I do appreciate them, and can relate to what you said.   I too wanted to believe
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
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                                Hi Prometheus,
                                 
                                Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable comments.  I do appreciate them, and can relate to what you said.
                                 
                                I too wanted to believe all the malarky that was being fed to me, and had problems buying into what HK was saying.  As Eckankar evolved/devolved under HK, it seemed to be leaving me with an empty feeling.  I could get the same stories from any 5th grader.  I made that comment to another Eckist, and was told HK had to make it simpler for those just "coming in".  If those "coming in" were supposed to be already more spiritually advanced than those of us who had been there a long time, then why dumb it down.  Just one more thing that didn't set well with me.
                                 
                                As for the spiritual exercises, apparently I didn't do them in an acceptable manner, but that was the way that was comfortable to me.  I haven't done them in quite a while now, and eventually will invent my own means of doing spiritual contemplation, if need be.  I spend a lot of time in Nature....gonna go out on a limb here and tell you that my entire life has been involved with helping animals in need...from the newborn to the ancient with special needs that require almost constant care.  I learned more about love from these animals than I ever did from HK, and feel blessed to have been given so much unconditional love and trust by beings usually untrusting of humans.  As each one passed over, it broke my heart, but I knew they were in a better place.  At least they had experienced love on this plane, and I'm sure it helped their Soul progression too. They were as close to me as my own heartbeat, and still are even tho' they have gone.
                                 
                                By giving up this spiritual path, I feel more free to be me, and to know and love all life whatever the form.  Still have to work on the rattlesnakes and flies however. lol
                                 
                                I think I bought into Eckankar for as long as I did because it seemed like the right thing to do at the time.  As the dis-satisfatico grew, I knew I had to be true to myself first and foremost.  Maybe it was the challenge of attaining initiations, I'm not certain.  I just know that somewhere along the line they ceased to matter, and my eyes were opening to see more about the spiritual path I was on. Didn't like what I saw, but didn't know how to get off the path.   I have done lots of "outside" reading over the years, and that has been instrumental in my eyes being opened.  Then there was that little sticking point that has always galled me........needing a mediator to connect with God.  If I didn't believe priests, ministers etc. could do it,  why should the Mahanta be any different???  There was no difference, and I finally "saw the light".
                                 
                                My test has been taken, and I've completed it long before the others.  I have no doubts, and don't need to recheck my answers.  I won't sit around and wait for the others to finish, but will walk out the door into a world of fun, love, joy, and totally of my making.  I am the captain of my own ship now, and feel certain I will attain whatever spiritual goals I set for myself.
                                 
                                I have been feeling guilty about not feeling guilty about leaving Eckankar.  It was guilt that had me wondering what to do next.  Now, thanks to all the wonderful posts by you, etznab, aftrek, mish, the guilt has gone away.  You all took the plunge with your eyes wide open, went thru the "what now" period, and emerged on the other side as full, complete human beings in charge of your own destinies.  May I join your ranks? 


                                --- On Thu, 12/4/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: What now?
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:26 PM

                                Hello Ma-li,
                                I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                                thing I can't recommend anything to
                                read, but I find many of the resources
                                listed on this site to be interesting.

                                As far as believing these and other sources
                                of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                                and everything by the so called "experts." I
                                definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                                seems to be selling something for one reason
                                or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                                subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

                                Ma-li wrote:
                                [snip]
                                "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                                handled it when you decided to leave, and
                                especially what did you do about the spiritual
                                exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                                Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                                writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                                left but God?"

                                *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                                many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                                sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                                it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                                and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                                every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                                opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                                one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                                I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                                my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                                believable to others.

                                However, I've always known and had proof of
                                Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                                I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                                of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                                and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                                amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                                or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                                long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                                because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                                in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                                HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                                can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
                                Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                                the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                                up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                                new is it?

                                "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                                beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                                the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                                the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                                warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                                IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                                the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                                IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

                                *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                                and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                                observing Nature is very contemplative and
                                peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                                The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                                and beyond and into other times as does reading
                                about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                                know about how we became who we are and
                                what we think we are in order to know more
                                about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

                                "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                                about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
                                from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                                and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                                If someone would care to share their experiences
                                and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                                can use my private email if you'd prefer."

                                *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                                Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                                buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                                because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                                Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                                giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                                I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                                give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                                after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                                I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                                and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                                many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                                a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                                me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                                reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                                same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

                                [snip]
                                Ma-li (also) wrote:
                                "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                                working until he's got himself almost convinced
                                he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                                to go back and change answers because he also
                                feels he did the best he could.

                                What does he do to fill the empty space?"

                                *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                                (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                                it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                                Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                                middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                                Masters in the making.

                                When one follows another they give up their ability
                                to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                                give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                                a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                                Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                                Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                                No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

                                Prometheus



                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Ma-li, It appears that you have already joined our ranks! You sound like an old friend where the passage of time and space becomes irrelevant to the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 6, 2008
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                                  Hello Ma-li,
                                  It appears that you have already joined
                                  our ranks! You sound like an old friend
                                  where the passage of time and space
                                  becomes irrelevant to the friendship,
                                  the journey, and to the connection of Soul.

                                  I enjoyed reading of your experiences
                                  and insights too. Yes, I too have mixed
                                  feelings about flies and rattlesnakes.
                                  I usually give them fair warning first and
                                  offer them an out before taking preventative
                                  (extreme) measures. The thing is it startles
                                  me, at times, when other (friendly) snakes
                                  sneak up on me, or I "discover" them. It's
                                  actually kind of funny, but I scold them
                                  for scaring me or for me scaring myself!

                                  Prometheus


                                  Ma-li wrote:
                                  Hi Prometheus,

                                  Thank you for all your wonderful, knowledgeable
                                  comments. I do appreciate them, and can relate
                                  to what you said.

                                  I too wanted to believe all the malarky that was
                                  being fed to me, and had problems buying into
                                  what HK was saying. As Eckankar evolved/devolved
                                  under HK, it seemed to be leaving me with an empty
                                  feeling. I could get the same stories from any 5th
                                  grader. I made that comment to another Eckist,
                                  and was told HK had to make it simpler for those
                                  just "coming in". If those "coming in" were supposed
                                  to be already more spiritually advanced than those
                                  of us who had been there a long time, then why
                                  dumb it down. Just one more thing that didn't set
                                  well with me.

                                  As for the spiritual exercises, apparently I didn't
                                  do them in an acceptable manner, but that was
                                  the way that was comfortable to me. I haven't
                                  done them in quite a while now, and eventually
                                  will invent my own means of doing spiritual
                                  contemplation, if need be. I spend a lot of time
                                  in Nature....gonna go out on a limb here and tell
                                  you that my entire life has been involved with
                                  helping animals in need...from the newborn to
                                  the ancient with special needs that require almost
                                  constant care. I learned more about love from
                                  these animals than I ever did from HK, and feel
                                  blessed to have been given so much unconditional
                                  love and trust by beings usually untrusting of humans.
                                  As each one passed over, it broke my heart, but
                                  I knew they were in a better place. At least they
                                  had experienced love on this plane, and I'm sure
                                  it helped their Soul progression too. They were as
                                  close to me as my own heartbeat, and still are even
                                  tho' they have gone.

                                  By giving up this spiritual path, I feel more free
                                  to be me, and to know and love all life whatever
                                  the form. Still have to work on the rattlesnakes
                                  and flies however. lol

                                  I think I bought into Eckankar for as long as I did
                                  because it seemed like the right thing to do at the
                                  time. As the dis-satisfatico grew, I knew I had to
                                  be true to myself first and foremost. Maybe it was
                                  the challenge of attaining initiations, I'm not certain.
                                  I just know that somewhere along the line they ceased
                                  to matter, and my eyes were opening to see more
                                  about the spiritual path I was on. Didn't like what
                                  I saw, but didn't know how to get off the path.
                                  I have done lots of "outside" reading over the years,
                                  and that has been instrumental in my eyes being
                                  opened. Then there was that little sticking point
                                  that has always galled me........needing a mediator
                                  to connect with God. If I didn't believe priests,
                                  ministers etc. could do it, why should the Mahanta
                                  be any different??? There was no difference, and
                                  I finally "saw the light".

                                  My test has been taken, and I've completed it long
                                  before the others. I have no doubts, and don't need
                                  to recheck my answers. I won't sit around and wait
                                  for the others to finish, but will walk out the door
                                  into a world of fun, love, joy, and totally of my making.
                                  I am the captain of my own ship now, and feel certain
                                  I will attain whatever spiritual goals I set for myself.

                                  I have been feeling guilty about not feeling guilty
                                  about leaving Eckankar. It was guilt that had me
                                  wondering what to do next. Now, thanks to all the
                                  wonderful posts by you, etznab, aftrek, mish, the
                                  guilt has gone away. You all took the plunge with
                                  your eyes wide open, went thru the "what now"
                                  period, and emerged on the other side as full,
                                  complete human beings in charge of your own
                                  destinies. May I join your ranks?

                                  ************************************************
                                  prometheus wrote:

                                  Hello Ma-li,
                                  I thought I'd respond as well. For one
                                  thing I can't recommend anything to
                                  read, but I find many of the resources
                                  listed on this site to be interesting.

                                  As far as believing these and other sources
                                  of info I don't! It's too easily to accept anything
                                  and everything by the so called "experts." I
                                  definitely don't buy into it or need to. Everyone
                                  seems to be selling something for one reason
                                  or another. The Truth is out there, is usually
                                  subjective, and is found within by each Soul.

                                  Ma-li wrote:
                                  [snip]
                                  "Would anyone like to share with me how you
                                  handled it when you decided to leave, and
                                  especially what did you do about the spiritual
                                  exercises? If Jesus, the Mahanta, and all the
                                  Eck Masters never really existed, except in
                                  writers' fertile minds, then who/what is
                                  left but God?"

                                  *ME: Well, I'd known for a long time that
                                  many things in ECKankar just didn't make
                                  sense and didn't add up even though I wanted
                                  it to. I really wanted to believe in the Mahanta,
                                  and in the initiations but it was getting tougher
                                  every time Klemp or one of his higher H.I.s
                                  opened his/her mouths. Klemp's nutty and
                                  one dimensional stories didn't help either.
                                  I found that I had to put blinders on and hold
                                  my nose in order to swallow it in order to sound
                                  believable to others.

                                  However, I've always known and had proof of
                                  Soul, the Holy Spirit or Spirit, and of GOD (WhatEver).
                                  I don't know of the workings or of the Why and How
                                  of many specifics outside of my realm of experience
                                  and of those spiritual Beings that I know who walk
                                  amongst us. I stopped my EK spiritual exercises
                                  or at least the way I used to do them. BTW-Many
                                  long-time H.I.s don't do real spiritual exercises
                                  because they're too busy. Sitting outside and taking
                                  in Nature is a very pleasant experience and I do still
                                  HU from time to time. Ever since I left ECKankar I
                                  can experience a Oneness with All There Is and a
                                  Contentment that I could never achieve while under
                                  the Stress of the EK org! It's quite amazing to give
                                  up what you seek in order to find it! But, this is nothing
                                  new is it?

                                  "God has always been the "real" aspect of my
                                  beliefs. IT is in everything, be it rocks, trees,
                                  the two-legged beings, the four-legged beings,
                                  the winged, or the swimming beings. IT is the
                                  warm Summer breeze that tickles the leaves.
                                  IT is the rain that gives and sustains life for
                                  the rooted beings. IT is everywhere in everything.
                                  IT IS ME, and I AM IT."

                                  *ME: YES! IT IS! I am finding that being outside
                                  and walking silently (no I-Pod) or sitting and
                                  observing Nature is very contemplative and
                                  peaceful. But, the I-Pod is nice too at times!
                                  The past tunes take one back to one's youth
                                  and beyond and into other times as does reading
                                  about or watching history on TV. It's good to
                                  know about how we became who we are and
                                  what we think we are in order to know more
                                  about Soul and the I AM of Beingness.

                                  "All this being said, I don't know what to do
                                  about spiritual exercises, or how to progress
                                  from here. It's like I'm standing alone once again,
                                  and need to make a choice about what to do next.
                                  If someone would care to share their experiences
                                  and choices from this point, I'd appreciate it. You
                                  can use my private email if you'd prefer."

                                  *ME: Don't do anything for now. It will come to you.
                                  Maybe you could explore the Why? Why did you
                                  buy into ECKankar for as long as you did? Was it
                                  because of friends and/or the promise of God-
                                  Realization via Initiation? Many people have trouble
                                  giving it up and letting it go because of peer pressure.
                                  I admit that I thought those Higher Initiations would
                                  give clarity to it all and it did because I saw the lies
                                  after reading Confessions of a God Seeker. And, after
                                  I left the clarity was even greater! It finally came together
                                  and I saw the con and the realized why there were so
                                  many flaws and knew that Klemp had neither Powers or
                                  a Higher Consciousness! The "WHY" is important to
                                  me because if I didn't learn about the WHY and my
                                  reasons for joining ECKankar then I could repeat the
                                  same mistake again. Knowing thyself is important!

                                  [snip]
                                  Ma-li (also) wrote:
                                  "...Then the doubts and mental processes begin
                                  working until he's got himself almost convinced
                                  he really screwed up the test, but he doesn't want
                                  to go back and change answers because he also
                                  feels he did the best he could.

                                  What does he do to fill the empty space?"

                                  *ME: JUST BE! Twitchell even said this at one time
                                  (before he took it back!). I wonder where he stole
                                  it from? I think I read it in The Path of the Masters!
                                  Still, it's true! The thing is.... we don't need no stinkin'
                                  middleman/Mahanta or Religion! We are our own
                                  Masters in the making.

                                  When one follows another they give up their ability
                                  to choose and to discover their own Truth. They
                                  give up any hope of Self Mastery. Most people need
                                  a religion to believe in when they can't believe in
                                  Self. However, the True Seeker discovers Truth in
                                  Everything and need Not follow anyone or any dogma.
                                  No Thing becomes the IS of one's Beingness.

                                  Prometheus
                                • drubezarne
                                  Hi Leanne, I think Ford s statements about Hu and Aum might be valid here. In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson, he says... I would ven­ture that
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Dec 7, 2008
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                                    Hi Leanne, I think Ford's statements about Hu and Aum might be valid here.

                                    In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson, he says...

                                    "I would ven­ture that God has no pref­er­ence and al­so that all
                                    sounds and words are part of ALL THAT IS, and serve equal­ly well in
                                    gar­ner­ing God's at­ten­tion."

                                    and...

                                    "The im­por­tant point is that all sounds or mantras can en­able the
                                    in­di­vid­ual to tran­scend the phys­ical di­men­sion and
                                    ex­pe­ri­ence the ec­stat­ic states and the in­ner planes...They all
                                    work and can en­able the in­divid­ual to hear the re­mark­able and
                                    awe-in­spir­ing sounds of the in­ner worlds. As­crib­ing greater
                                    mag­ic to one sound or mantra over an­oth­er is much like ar­gu­ing
                                    whose God is great­est. It is a mean­ing­less de­bate for ev­ery­thing
                                    is part of the ONE. Fur­ther, when the prac­ti­tion­er has had some
                                    ex­pe­ri­ence with these mantras and the in­ner ex­pe­ri­ences that
                                    follow, she will come to the re­al­iza­tion that these are not
                                    out­side sounds; they are a part of her."

                                    and...

                                    "The Va­lid­ity of Spir­itu­al Ex­er­cis­es. The ba­sic spir­itu­al
                                    ex­er­cise of Eck, which Paul called "the easy way," is al­so the
                                    ba­sic ex­er­cise of the Shabd Yo­ga tra­di­tion, and, as such,
                                    car­ries with it the in­trin­sic va­lid­ity of this prac­tice in the
                                    Yo­ga tradi­tion. In these teach­ings, the HU is sung "Hooooooo,"
                                    where­as in Eck­ankar, it is sung "Hu­uu­uu­uuu" or "hugh" — Paul's
                                    ef­fort to make it unique. The dif­fer­ence is of no re­al
                                    sig­nif­icance. Each sound will work and should be con­tin­ued if it
                                    works for you."

                                    As to Ek Onkar; it is a Sikh term that means "God is One." Julian
                                    Johnson's Path of the Masters mentions it. If you downloaded the .pdf
                                    book, you can do a search for it in Acrobat.

                                    Regards,
                                    Liska

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Leanne Thompson
                                    <le_anne_thompson@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Does anyone still HU now that they left eckankar? I use HU-OM or
                                    other sanskrit words.
                                    >  
                                    > BTW in a book of meditation by yogi bhajan I found EK OM KAR. I
                                    think it was a mantra or something like  that. Has anyone heard of that?
                                    >  
                                    > Thanks
                                    > Leanne
                                    >
                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hello Liska and All, It s interesting that Ford said, They all work and can enable the individual to hear the remarkable and awe-inspiring sounds of the INNER
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 7, 2008
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                                      Hello Liska and All,
                                      It's interesting that Ford said,
                                      "They all work and can enable
                                      the individual to hear the remarkable
                                      and awe-inspiring sounds of the INNER
                                      WORLDS. Ascribing greater MAGIC to
                                      one sound or mantra over another is
                                      much like arguing whose God is greatest."
                                      [MY CAPS]

                                      So, is Ford saying that these are Magical
                                      sounds/mantras that have "intrinsic validity."
                                      Isn't that a contradiction of terms? Or, is
                                      he saying that most people see these as
                                      magical words/sounds, but that these
                                      have "intrinsic validity" in Shabd Yoga?
                                      However, does Shabd Yoga have validity?
                                      How much or with what? BTW- I wonder
                                      which planes or "inner worlds" Ford was
                                      referring to?

                                      IMO it does seem that there is something
                                      different with the vibratory rate of this
                                      sound/mantra (HU) that makes it more
                                      unique than the other (AUM), or Not!
                                      Perhaps there are Universal sounds/mantras,
                                      as well as, more specific ones that match
                                      or enhance each person's/Soul's vibratory
                                      rate of consciousness. And, this is why one
                                      sound works better for one person than with
                                      another person.

                                      The other quote you gave by Ford was:

                                      "The Validity of Spiritual Exercises.

                                      The basic spiritual exercise of Eck, which Paul
                                      called "the easy way," is also the basic exercise
                                      of the Shabd Yoga tradition, and, as such, carries
                                      with it the INTRINSIC VALIDITY of this practice
                                      in the Yoga tradition. In these teachings, the
                                      HU is sung "Hooooooo," where as in Eckankar,
                                      it is sung "Huuuuuuu" or "hugh." [MY CAPS]

                                      Personally, I often have trouble accepting any
                                      promises and beliefs from any religion as valid
                                      and, especially, from those religions that have
                                      "Living Masters" who have set themselves up as
                                      Masters/Godmen/Saviours/Prophets.

                                      It is interesting about the HU being sung as
                                      "Hooooooo" (who) and "Huuuuuuu" (hue/hugh).

                                      I knew ECKists who would sing HU as "Hooooooo"
                                      (who)! It was very strange and they sang loud!!!
                                      I never did ask them why they did this, but they
                                      believed they were part of Harry's inner (Inner)
                                      Circle and were more special than most of his
                                      RESAs. They had a small following at the major
                                      EK Seminars and were very aloof towards the
                                      RESA structure and toward rules and guidelines
                                      in general. They usually ignored these or acted
                                      As If they had no knowledge of these ESC approved
                                      procedures. Delusion runs rampant in ECKankar!

                                      Prometheus



                                      Liska wrote:
                                      Hi Leanne, I think Ford's statements about
                                      Hu and Aum might be valid here.

                                      In Confessions of a God Seeker by Ford Johnson,
                                      he says...

                                      "I would venture that God has no preference
                                      and also that all sounds and words are part
                                      of ALL THAT IS, and serve equally well in
                                      garnering God's attention."

                                      and...

                                      "The important point is that all sounds or
                                      mantras can enable the individual to transcend
                                      the physical dimension and experience the
                                      ecstatic states and the inner planes... They
                                      all work and can enable the individual to hear
                                      the remarkable and awe-inspiring sounds
                                      of the inner worlds. Ascribing greater magic
                                      to one sound or mantra over another is much
                                      like arguing whose God is greatest. It is a
                                      meaningless debate for everything is part of
                                      the ONE. Further, when the practitioner has
                                      had some experience with these mantras and
                                      the inner experiences that follow, she will
                                      come to the realization that these are not
                                      outside sounds; they are a part of her."

                                      and...

                                      "The Validity of Spiritual Exercises. The basic
                                      spiritual exercise of Eck, which Paul called
                                      "the easy way," is also the basic exercise of
                                      the Shabd Yoga tradition, and, as such, carries
                                      with it the INTRINSIC VALIDITY of this practice
                                      in the Yoga tradition. In these teachings, the
                                      HU is sung "Hooooooo," where as in Eckankar,
                                      it is sung "Huuuuuuuu" or "hugh" — Paul's
                                      effort to make it unique. The difference is of
                                      no real significance. Each sound will work and
                                      should be continued if it works for you."

                                      ME: [My Caps]

                                      As to Ek Onkar; it is a Sikh term that means
                                      "God is One." Julian Johnson's Path of the Masters
                                      mentions it. If you downloaded the .pdf
                                      book, you can do a search for it in Acrobat.

                                      Regards,
                                      Liska


                                      Leanne wrote:

                                      Does anyone still HU now that they left eckankar?
                                      I use HU-OM or other sanskrit words.

                                      BTW in a book of meditation by yogi bhajan I found
                                      EK OM KAR. I think it was a mantra or something like
                                      that. Has anyone heard of that?

                                      Thanks
                                      Leanne
                                      >
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