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Re: Another Look At Klemp's EK LEXICON

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, Isn t it interesting that when the narcissistic Klemp Slowed Down the ECK Initiations (20 years ago?) that he, also, created more steps and hoops
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 2, 2008
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      Hello All,
      Isn't it interesting that when the
      narcissistic Klemp "Slowed Down"
      the ECK Initiations (20 years ago?)
      that he, also, created more steps
      and hoops to jump through. HK
      refuses to share power, or his "brand"
      of spirituality.

      With Twitchell (and even Gross) there
      was SELF and GOD REALIZATION which
      was promised in THIS LIFETIME! What
      happened to the promise... Klemp!

      With Klemp was added SPIRITUAL
      REALIZATION between the other two!
      This term is not found in PT's ECKankar
      Dictionary or in the his Shariyats. It was
      created by Klemp after he slowed-down
      the initiations.

      "SPIRITUAL REALIZATION. A level of
      realization which come after SELF-Realization
      and before GOD-Realization. Includes
      mainly the initiations of the SIXTH and
      SEVENTH Circles." [pg. 198]

      However, this too is a Bait and Switch!
      Klemp is giving ECKists the impression
      that at the 8th Initiation (which few can
      achieve) one will experience God-Realization.
      BUT, in the Klemp's own words, only an
      ECK Master (a 12th Initiate) is God-Realized!
      Catch-22 again! Thus, 8ths, 9ths, 10ths,
      and 11ths are in a Limbo and are between
      Spiritual and God-Realization. Of course,
      one can always IMAGINE they are Higher
      in Consciousness (on the Inner). This is
      what works best for most ECKists.

      Another Klemp created term that is connected
      to the Slow-Down of Initiations and to the fund
      raising effort is "Co-worker with the Mahanta."

      Again, both Twitchell and Gross used only
      one term: "CO-WORKER WITH GOD."

      The FIRST definition is from PT's 1986 printing
      of the ECKANKAR DICTIONARY and the SECOND
      definition is from HK's 1998 ECK LEXICON.

      "CO-WORKER WITH GOD One who takes his
      place in the guardianship of the beings and
      entities throughout the worlds of God; voluntarily
      gives great love and compassion to the worlds."
      [pg.23]

      "Co-worker with God. One who takes his
      place in the guardianship of the beings and
      entities throughout the worlds of God; voluntarily
      gives great love and compassion to the worlds,
      an ECK MASTER." [pg.37]

      Notice the difference? Klemp added "an
      ECK Master" to the definition of "Co-worker
      with God!" Now, at what initiation does one
      become an ECK Master? It's the 12th! And,
      there has to be an Outer Third and Final Stage
      to give confirmation to any Initiation of a Living
      Person!

      So, how many ECKists can now achieve God-
      Realization with Klemp in charge? So far it's
      only the narcissist in charge, Klemp, that has
      the qualifications of God-Realization.

      Okay, let's look at Klemp's other new definition
      of CO-WORKER WITH THE MAHANTA.

      "Co-worker with the Mahanta. One who is
      IN TRAINING for ECK Mastership. To GIVE of
      oneself to BRING the MESSAGE of ECK to others,
      is ACTING as a Co-worker with the Mahanta."
      [Lexicon pg.37 (my caps)]

      It's interesting to scrutinize Klemp's choice
      of words in the above definition. I see it as
      time-delay ploy due to his need for more
      missionary/salespeople and to stress more
      use of the imagination via "Acting" as if this
      or that is true or possible.

      Remember, Twitchell promised ECKists
      Spiritual Freedom and GOD-REALIZATION
      IN THIS LIFETIME! What has Klemp done with
      that promise? HK's "changed" it and took
      it away! One has to be an ECK Master (12th)!

      For me it's now clear that Klemp is playing
      the childish game of "King of the Mountain"
      and he's not permitting anyone to get close
      enough to pull him down or knock him off his
      hill.

      Prometheus


      Prometheus wrote:
      I thought I'd make some comparisons
      for everyone who didn't see this the
      first time around. Here are the three
      sources.

      The Path of the Masters
      PT's EK Dictionary
      HK's EK Lexicon

      This article is to show where Twitchell
      got his information, as well as, with how
      and when Klemp began to revise it. It's
      interesting that Klemp didn't understand
      Twitchell's modus operandi and, therefore,
      not only made spelling corrections to PT's
      info, but other revisions and even omissions!

      The following is from "The Path of the Masters"
      copyright 1939, eleventh edition 1977, 5. The
      Zoroastrian Faith, pages 50-51.

      FYI-This covers information found in both
      PT's ECKankar Dictionary and HK's ECKankar
      Lexicon concerning The HOLY IMMORTALS
      (RAYS or WAYS of light). These Beings are Not
      to be confused with the Nine Silent Ones, or
      with the Astral Rays]

      PATH: "According to Zarathustra, there are
      six different WAYS the Supreme One has to
      make himself known to men. They are called
      also RAYS of light from the Supreme. They are
      spoken of at times AS IF they were personalities
      --- 'Amesh-spenta' --- HOLY IMMORTALS."

      NOTE: The first Three represent the Male
      Principle; the next Three represent the Female
      Principle, of the Divine.

      "They are:
      1) Asa-Vahista, the Supreme Will, manifested
      in the world.

      2) Vohu-Mano, meaning good mind, divine wisdom,
      pure-mindedness.

      3) Khashathra-Vairya, all creative, all sustaining
      power.

      4) Spenta-Armaiti, perfect piety with single minded
      devotion.

      5) Haurvatat, absolute wholeness, perfection,
      spirituality.

      6) Ameretatat, immortal life, freedom from death or
      dissolution.

      *7) Ahura-Mazda

      *8) Sraosha, this Ray of the Divine One is something
      that can be heard... this is the Shabd Dhun of Santon
      ki Shikaha... it is the AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM of the Saints.

      These [first] six represent both the maternal and paternal
      qualities of God, the first three the fatherly and the last
      [next] three the motherly nature of the Surpreme. If we
      add to these six the great central figure of Ahura-Mazda,
      we have the SEVEN-fold Lord, as taught by the prophet
      Zarathustra... In addition to the above mentioned SEVEN
      RAYS of the divine One, he mentions another [8th] RAY
      or POWER which he calls Shraosha or SRAOSHA."

      ******************************************************

      Next, we look at Twitchell's ECKankar Dictionary,
      copyright 1973, *Sixth Printing 1986 (HK oversaw this).

      [NOTE: These "Rays or Ways" and "Holy Immortals"
      are not to be confused with the Astral Rays (pg. 10)]

      1) "ASA-VAHISTA, One of the six *RAYS of light
      from the Divine; the Supreme Will, manifested in
      the world.

      2) VOHU-MANO, One of the six *RAYS of light
      from the Divine; the good mind, divine wisdom,
      pure mindedness.

      3) KHASHATHRA-VAIRYA, One of the six *WAYS
      the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF known
      to man; one of the six RAYS of light from the
      Divine known as the Ameshspenta; the all-creative,
      all sustaining power.

      4) SPENTA-ARMAITI, Perfect piety with single
      minded devotion; one of the HOLY IMMORTALS.

      5) HAURVATA, The *FIFTH RAY of light or *WAY
      that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF
      known to man; absolute, wholeness, perfection,
      and spirituality.

      6) AMERETATAT, One of the six RAYS of light
      from the Divine; immortal life, freedom from
      death or dissolution.

      *7) AMESHSPENTA, Means; HOLY IMMORTALS;
      the six WAYS, or RAYS of light from the Divine,
      that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF
      known to man.

      8) SRASOSHA, The *EIGHTH RAY or WAY the
      Supreme SUGMAD has of making ITSELF known
      to man; the ECK, that which can be heard, the
      audible life stream."

      NOTE: See where Twitchell mentions the *Fifth and
      *Eight Rays or Ways in their descriptions. Also, in
      The Path of the Masters *"Amesh-spenta" --- Holy
      Immortals is mentioned in referring to ALL of the
      Rays or Ways, but P.T. alters the spelling and uses
      this term as the 7th Ray or Way and as a substitution
      for AHURA-MAZDA!

      BTW- It's interesting that Twitchell doesn't mention
      Ahura-Mazda in his ECKankar Dictionary, but Klemp
      does mention it in his EK Lexicon on page 5.

      "Ahura Mazda. A name used in ancient Persia for
      the state of Godhood; Zoroaster's name for God."

      Here's more from Klemp's EK Lexicon:

      "Zarathustra. See Zoroaster" (pg.241)

      "Zoroaster. The Persian Avatar who taught Soul
      Travel almost six hundred years before the coming
      of Christ and his followers." (pg.243)

      Now let's see what Twitchell said:

      "ZARATHUSTRA, The Persian Sage who was one
      of the MASTERS of the ANCIENT ORDER of the
      VAIRAGI lived hundreds of years B.C." (pg.159)

      WOW! ANOTHER ECK MASTER!!! But Wait!

      "ZOROASTER, The Persian Avatar who taught
      Soul Travel some few hundred years before the
      coming of Christ, and his followers."

      I guess that Twitchell didn't realize they were one
      and the same. Still, P.T. was the Mahanta wasn't
      he? But, is Klemp really the Mahanta?

      Okay, let's now compare Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon
      to the approved 1986 printing of Twitchell's ECKankar
      Dictionary and to the info in the 1939 copyright of
      Julian P. Johnson's "The Path of the Masters."

      BTW- In what year did Klemp become the "FULL"
      Mahanta?

      ************************************************

      Klemp's 1998 "The ECKankar LexiCON:"

      1) "Asha-Vahista. The FIRST of six RAYS of
      light from the Divine; the supreme will manifested
      in the world." (pg.12)

      2) "Vohu-Mano. The SECOND of the six RAYS
      of light from the Divine; the good mind, Divine,
      Wisdom, pure mindedness." (pg.225)

      3) "Khashathra-Vairya. The THIRD of the six
      WAYS the supreme SUGMAD has to make
      Itself known to man; one of the six RAYS
      of light from the Divine known as the Amesha
      Spentas; the all creative, all sustaining power."
      (pg.114)

      4) "Armaiti. The FOURTH of the six RAYS of
      light from the Divine; immortal life, freedom
      from death or dissolution." (pg.11)

      5) "Haurvatat. The FIFTH of six RAYS of light
      or WAYS that the SUGMAD has to make
      Itself known to man; absolute, wholeness,
      perfection, and SPIRITUALITY." (pgs.86-87)

      6) "Ameretat. The SIXTH of the six RAYS of
      light from the Divine; immortal life, freedom
      from death or dissolution." (pg.8)

      *NOTE: Klemp changed the spelling from
      Ameretatat to Ameretat. from both sources.
      Also, Klemp repeats the definition for the
      FOURTH and SIXTH RAYS!

      *7) "Amesha Spentas. Holy immortals; the
      six WAYS, or RAYS of light, from the Divine,
      that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make
      Itself known to man." (pg.8)

      *8) "Sraosha. In the Far Country, another
      name for the ECK, that which can be heard,
      the Audible Life Stream." (pg.200)

      It's interesting how speed reading reduced
      Twitchell's comprehension since he missed
      the 7th and 8th additions to the Six Rays or
      Ways. Klemp, of course, copied the info and
      decided to do his own alterations.

      This is just more proof of ECKankar's fraud!

      Here's a side-by-side comparison of the
      spellings of the *AMESH-SPENTA -- HOLY
      IMMORTALS the Six (plus Two) RAYS and WAYS :

      The Path (1939)---PT (1973&1986)-------HK (1998)
      Asa-Vahista..............Asa-Vahista.............Asha-Vahista
      Vohu-Mano...............Vohu-Mano..............Vohu-Mano
      Khashathra-Vairya..Khashathra-Vairya...Khashathra-Vairya
      Spenta-Armaiti.........Spenta-Armaiti..........*Armaiti
      Haurvatat....................*Haurvata................Haurvatat
      Ameretatat.................Ameretatat...............*Ameretat
      *Ahura-Mazda.........*Ameshspenta........*Amesha Spentas
      Sraosha.......................*Srasosha.................Sraosha

      Notice that Klemp's rewrite matches "The Path
      of the Masters" version more than Twitchell's,
      but goes against the other two on "Ameretat!"

      ECKists should reread PT's EK Dictonary
      and HK's EK Lexicon and compare the two!

      Prometheus
    • drubezarne
      Very good post, Prometheus. You brought out some important considerations for any eckist who is wondering about Eckankar s former promise of God Realization.
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 3, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Very good post, Prometheus. You brought out some important considerations for any
        eckist who is wondering about Eckankar's former promise of God Realization.

        Maybe this will show them Klemp's self-serving narcissistic behavior.

        Etznab, would you consider making an Eckankar timeline for Prometheus to post in the
        files sections?

        Regards
        Liska

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > Isn't it interesting that when the
        > narcissistic Klemp "Slowed Down"
        > the ECK Initiations (20 years ago?)
        > that he, also, created more steps
        > and hoops to jump through. HK
        > refuses to share power, or his "brand"
        > of spirituality.
        >
        > With Twitchell (and even Gross) there
        > was SELF and GOD REALIZATION which
        > was promised in THIS LIFETIME! What
        > happened to the promise... Klemp!
        >
        > With Klemp was added SPIRITUAL
        > REALIZATION between the other two!
        > This term is not found in PT's ECKankar
        > Dictionary or in the his Shariyats. It was
        > created by Klemp after he slowed-down
        > the initiations.
        >
        > "SPIRITUAL REALIZATION. A level of
        > realization which come after SELF-Realization
        > and before GOD-Realization. Includes
        > mainly the initiations of the SIXTH and
        > SEVENTH Circles." [pg. 198]
        >
        > However, this too is a Bait and Switch!
        > Klemp is giving ECKists the impression
        > that at the 8th Initiation (which few can
        > achieve) one will experience God-Realization.
        > BUT, in the Klemp's own words, only an
        > ECK Master (a 12th Initiate) is God-Realized!
        > Catch-22 again! Thus, 8ths, 9ths, 10ths,
        > and 11ths are in a Limbo and are between
        > Spiritual and God-Realization. Of course,
        > one can always IMAGINE they are Higher
        > in Consciousness (on the Inner). This is
        > what works best for most ECKists.
        >
        > Another Klemp created term that is connected
        > to the Slow-Down of Initiations and to the fund
        > raising effort is "Co-worker with the Mahanta."
        >
        > Again, both Twitchell and Gross used only
        > one term: "CO-WORKER WITH GOD."
        >
        > The FIRST definition is from PT's 1986 printing
        > of the ECKANKAR DICTIONARY and the SECOND
        > definition is from HK's 1998 ECK LEXICON.
        >
        > "CO-WORKER WITH GOD One who takes his
        > place in the guardianship of the beings and
        > entities throughout the worlds of God; voluntarily
        > gives great love and compassion to the worlds."
        > [pg.23]
        >
        > "Co-worker with God. One who takes his
        > place in the guardianship of the beings and
        > entities throughout the worlds of God; voluntarily
        > gives great love and compassion to the worlds,
        > an ECK MASTER." [pg.37]
        >
        > Notice the difference? Klemp added "an
        > ECK Master" to the definition of "Co-worker
        > with God!" Now, at what initiation does one
        > become an ECK Master? It's the 12th! And,
        > there has to be an Outer Third and Final Stage
        > to give confirmation to any Initiation of a Living
        > Person!
        >
        > So, how many ECKists can now achieve God-
        > Realization with Klemp in charge? So far it's
        > only the narcissist in charge, Klemp, that has
        > the qualifications of God-Realization.
        >
        > Okay, let's look at Klemp's other new definition
        > of CO-WORKER WITH THE MAHANTA.
        >
        > "Co-worker with the Mahanta. One who is
        > IN TRAINING for ECK Mastership. To GIVE of
        > oneself to BRING the MESSAGE of ECK to others,
        > is ACTING as a Co-worker with the Mahanta."
        > [Lexicon pg.37 (my caps)]
        >
        > It's interesting to scrutinize Klemp's choice
        > of words in the above definition. I see it as
        > time-delay ploy due to his need for more
        > missionary/salespeople and to stress more
        > use of the imagination via "Acting" as if this
        > or that is true or possible.
        >
        > Remember, Twitchell promised ECKists
        > Spiritual Freedom and GOD-REALIZATION
        > IN THIS LIFETIME! What has Klemp done with
        > that promise? HK's "changed" it and took
        > it away! One has to be an ECK Master (12th)!
        >
        > For me it's now clear that Klemp is playing
        > the childish game of "King of the Mountain"
        > and he's not permitting anyone to get close
        > enough to pull him down or knock him off his
        > hill.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > Prometheus wrote:
        > I thought I'd make some comparisons
        > for everyone who didn't see this the
        > first time around. Here are the three
        > sources.
        >
        > The Path of the Masters
        > PT's EK Dictionary
        > HK's EK Lexicon
        >
        > This article is to show where Twitchell
        > got his information, as well as, with how
        > and when Klemp began to revise it. It's
        > interesting that Klemp didn't understand
        > Twitchell's modus operandi and, therefore,
        > not only made spelling corrections to PT's
        > info, but other revisions and even omissions!
        >
        > The following is from "The Path of the Masters"
        > copyright 1939, eleventh edition 1977, 5. The
        > Zoroastrian Faith, pages 50-51.
        >
        > FYI-This covers information found in both
        > PT's ECKankar Dictionary and HK's ECKankar
        > Lexicon concerning The HOLY IMMORTALS
        > (RAYS or WAYS of light). These Beings are Not
        > to be confused with the Nine Silent Ones, or
        > with the Astral Rays]
        >
        > PATH: "According to Zarathustra, there are
        > six different WAYS the Supreme One has to
        > make himself known to men. They are called
        > also RAYS of light from the Supreme. They are
        > spoken of at times AS IF they were personalities
        > --- 'Amesh-spenta' --- HOLY IMMORTALS."
        >
        > NOTE: The first Three represent the Male
        > Principle; the next Three represent the Female
        > Principle, of the Divine.
        >
        > "They are:
        > 1) Asa-Vahista, the Supreme Will, manifested
        > in the world.
        >
        > 2) Vohu-Mano, meaning good mind, divine wisdom,
        > pure-mindedness.
        >
        > 3) Khashathra-Vairya, all creative, all sustaining
        > power.
        >
        > 4) Spenta-Armaiti, perfect piety with single minded
        > devotion.
        >
        > 5) Haurvatat, absolute wholeness, perfection,
        > spirituality.
        >
        > 6) Ameretatat, immortal life, freedom from death or
        > dissolution.
        >
        > *7) Ahura-Mazda
        >
        > *8) Sraosha, this Ray of the Divine One is something
        > that can be heard... this is the Shabd Dhun of Santon
        > ki Shikaha... it is the AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM of the Saints.
        >
        > These [first] six represent both the maternal and paternal
        > qualities of God, the first three the fatherly and the last
        > [next] three the motherly nature of the Surpreme. If we
        > add to these six the great central figure of Ahura-Mazda,
        > we have the SEVEN-fold Lord, as taught by the prophet
        > Zarathustra... In addition to the above mentioned SEVEN
        > RAYS of the divine One, he mentions another [8th] RAY
        > or POWER which he calls Shraosha or SRAOSHA."
        >
        > ******************************************************
        >
        > Next, we look at Twitchell's ECKankar Dictionary,
        > copyright 1973, *Sixth Printing 1986 (HK oversaw this).
        >
        > [NOTE: These "Rays or Ways" and "Holy Immortals"
        > are not to be confused with the Astral Rays (pg. 10)]
        >
        > 1) "ASA-VAHISTA, One of the six *RAYS of light
        > from the Divine; the Supreme Will, manifested in
        > the world.
        >
        > 2) VOHU-MANO, One of the six *RAYS of light
        > from the Divine; the good mind, divine wisdom,
        > pure mindedness.
        >
        > 3) KHASHATHRA-VAIRYA, One of the six *WAYS
        > the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF known
        > to man; one of the six RAYS of light from the
        > Divine known as the Ameshspenta; the all-creative,
        > all sustaining power.
        >
        > 4) SPENTA-ARMAITI, Perfect piety with single
        > minded devotion; one of the HOLY IMMORTALS.
        >
        > 5) HAURVATA, The *FIFTH RAY of light or *WAY
        > that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF
        > known to man; absolute, wholeness, perfection,
        > and spirituality.
        >
        > 6) AMERETATAT, One of the six RAYS of light
        > from the Divine; immortal life, freedom from
        > death or dissolution.
        >
        > *7) AMESHSPENTA, Means; HOLY IMMORTALS;
        > the six WAYS, or RAYS of light from the Divine,
        > that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF
        > known to man.
        >
        > 8) SRASOSHA, The *EIGHTH RAY or WAY the
        > Supreme SUGMAD has of making ITSELF known
        > to man; the ECK, that which can be heard, the
        > audible life stream."
        >
        > NOTE: See where Twitchell mentions the *Fifth and
        > *Eight Rays or Ways in their descriptions. Also, in
        > The Path of the Masters *"Amesh-spenta" --- Holy
        > Immortals is mentioned in referring to ALL of the
        > Rays or Ways, but P.T. alters the spelling and uses
        > this term as the 7th Ray or Way and as a substitution
        > for AHURA-MAZDA!
        >
        > BTW- It's interesting that Twitchell doesn't mention
        > Ahura-Mazda in his ECKankar Dictionary, but Klemp
        > does mention it in his EK Lexicon on page 5.
        >
        > "Ahura Mazda. A name used in ancient Persia for
        > the state of Godhood; Zoroaster's name for God."
        >
        > Here's more from Klemp's EK Lexicon:
        >
        > "Zarathustra. See Zoroaster" (pg.241)
        >
        > "Zoroaster. The Persian Avatar who taught Soul
        > Travel almost six hundred years before the coming
        > of Christ and his followers." (pg.243)
        >
        > Now let's see what Twitchell said:
        >
        > "ZARATHUSTRA, The Persian Sage who was one
        > of the MASTERS of the ANCIENT ORDER of the
        > VAIRAGI lived hundreds of years B.C." (pg.159)
        >
        > WOW! ANOTHER ECK MASTER!!! But Wait!
        >
        > "ZOROASTER, The Persian Avatar who taught
        > Soul Travel some few hundred years before the
        > coming of Christ, and his followers."
        >
        > I guess that Twitchell didn't realize they were one
        > and the same. Still, P.T. was the Mahanta wasn't
        > he? But, is Klemp really the Mahanta?
        >
        > Okay, let's now compare Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon
        > to the approved 1986 printing of Twitchell's ECKankar
        > Dictionary and to the info in the 1939 copyright of
        > Julian P. Johnson's "The Path of the Masters."
        >
        > BTW- In what year did Klemp become the "FULL"
        > Mahanta?
        >
        > ************************************************
        >
        > Klemp's 1998 "The ECKankar LexiCON:"
        >
        > 1) "Asha-Vahista. The FIRST of six RAYS of
        > light from the Divine; the supreme will manifested
        > in the world." (pg.12)
        >
        > 2) "Vohu-Mano. The SECOND of the six RAYS
        > of light from the Divine; the good mind, Divine,
        > Wisdom, pure mindedness." (pg.225)
        >
        > 3) "Khashathra-Vairya. The THIRD of the six
        > WAYS the supreme SUGMAD has to make
        > Itself known to man; one of the six RAYS
        > of light from the Divine known as the Amesha
        > Spentas; the all creative, all sustaining power."
        > (pg.114)
        >
        > 4) "Armaiti. The FOURTH of the six RAYS of
        > light from the Divine; immortal life, freedom
        > from death or dissolution." (pg.11)
        >
        > 5) "Haurvatat. The FIFTH of six RAYS of light
        > or WAYS that the SUGMAD has to make
        > Itself known to man; absolute, wholeness,
        > perfection, and SPIRITUALITY." (pgs.86-87)
        >
        > 6) "Ameretat. The SIXTH of the six RAYS of
        > light from the Divine; immortal life, freedom
        > from death or dissolution." (pg.8)
        >
        > *NOTE: Klemp changed the spelling from
        > Ameretatat to Ameretat. from both sources.
        > Also, Klemp repeats the definition for the
        > FOURTH and SIXTH RAYS!
        >
        > *7) "Amesha Spentas. Holy immortals; the
        > six WAYS, or RAYS of light, from the Divine,
        > that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make
        > Itself known to man." (pg.8)
        >
        > *8) "Sraosha. In the Far Country, another
        > name for the ECK, that which can be heard,
        > the Audible Life Stream." (pg.200)
        >
        > It's interesting how speed reading reduced
        > Twitchell's comprehension since he missed
        > the 7th and 8th additions to the Six Rays or
        > Ways. Klemp, of course, copied the info and
        > decided to do his own alterations.
        >
        > This is just more proof of ECKankar's fraud!
        >
        > Here's a side-by-side comparison of the
        > spellings of the *AMESH-SPENTA -- HOLY
        > IMMORTALS the Six (plus Two) RAYS and WAYS :
        >
        > The Path (1939)---PT (1973&1986)-------HK (1998)
        > Asa-Vahista..............Asa-Vahista.............Asha-Vahista
        > Vohu-Mano...............Vohu-Mano..............Vohu-Mano
        > Khashathra-Vairya..Khashathra-Vairya...Khashathra-Vairya
        > Spenta-Armaiti.........Spenta-Armaiti..........*Armaiti
        > Haurvatat....................*Haurvata................Haurvatat
        > Ameretatat.................Ameretatat...............*Ameretat
        > *Ahura-Mazda.........*Ameshspenta........*Amesha Spentas
        > Sraosha.......................*Srasosha.................Sraosha
        >
        > Notice that Klemp's rewrite matches "The Path
        > of the Masters" version more than Twitchell's,
        > but goes against the other two on "Ameretat!"
        >
        > ECKists should reread PT's EK Dictonary
        > and HK's EK Lexicon and compare the two!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • etznab@aol.com
        Liska, You wrote: Etznab, would you consider making an Eckankar timeline for Prometheus to post in the files sections? Regards Liska
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 3, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Liska,

          You wrote:

          Etznab, would you consider making an Eckankar
          timeline for Prometheus to post in the files sections?

          Regards
          Liska

          **************************************************************

          Liska,

          It's really not difficult to build a timeline. All you do
          is put events in order according to date. However, if
          I were to create one, the dates might agree, but what
          information I include might be different from what
          someone else would.

          I answered the question that it would probably take
          some time for me to create a public file. I don't know
          how soon that can be done. In the mean time, I would
          suggest making a record of history as it happens and
          then you could use the data at a latter date.

          What I do is, when something I consider significant
          to Eckankar history is mentioned, I just put it on the
          timeline according to the date.

          Probably a good amount of trivia has come to me by
          reading newsgroups - like this one - and corresponding
          with current and former members. I didn't join Eckankar
          until about 1987 so I've had to do a lot of research for
          certain specific dates and facts.

          David Lane, Ford Johnson, Doug Marman and others
          have illustrated some history (IMO) according to what
          each saw as most relevant, I suspect. Each had their
          own way of illustrating (some have web sites too). I did
          not write a book like they did, but arranged data accor-
          0Ading to date. I think this is helpful, to have such a data
          file, because it allows a viewer to look at a timeline and
          contemplate trivia for themself, without a lot of particular
          spin or bias on the part of a single author.

          When I had my own timeline up in the past, it was (I
          would say) about 99 percent compiled data and little, if
          any, personal commentary. This is the way I try to do a
          timeline. Just list the data and let people decide what it
          means to them.

          Etznab







          -----Original Message-----
          From: drubezarne <drubezarne@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 8:09 am
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Another Look At Klemp's EK
          LEXICON



          Very good post, Prometheus. You brought out some important
          considerations for any

          eckist who is wondering about Eckankar's former promise of God
          Realization.



          Maybe this will show them Klemp's self-serving narcissistic behavior.



          Etznab, would you consider making an Eckankar timeline for Prometheus
          to post in the

          files sections?



          Regards

          Liska



          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"

          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

          >

          > Hello All,

          > Isn't it interesting that when the

          > narcissistic Klemp "Slowed Down"

          > the ECK Initiations (20 years ago?)

          > that he, also, created more steps=0
          D

          > and hoops to jump through. HK

          > refuses to share power, or his "brand"

          > of spirituality.

          >

          > With Twitchell (and even Gross) there

          > was SELF and GOD REALIZATION which

          > was promised in THIS LIFETIME! What

          > happened to the promise... Klemp!

          >

          > With Klemp was added SPIRITUAL

          > REALIZATION between the other two!

          > This term is not found in PT's ECKankar

          > Dictionary or in the his Shariyats. It was

          > created by Klemp after he slowed-down

          > the initiations.

          >

          > "SPIRITUAL REALIZATION. A level of

          > realization which come after SELF-Realization

          > and before GOD-Realization. Includes

          > mainly the initiations of the SIXTH and

          > SEVENTH Circles." [pg. 198]

          >

          > However, this too is a Bait and Switch!

          > Klemp is giving ECKists the impression

          > that at the 8th Initiation (which few can

          > achieve) one will experience God-Realization.

          > BUT, in the Klemp's own words, only an

          > ECK Master (a 12th Initiate) is God-Realized!

          > Catch-22 again! Thus, 8ths, 9ths, 10ths,

          > and 11ths are in a Limbo and are between

          > Spiritual and God-Realization. Of course,

          > one can always IMAGINE they are Higher

          > in Consciousness (on the Inner). This is

          > what works best for most ECKists.

          >

          > Ano
          ther Klemp created term that is connected

          > to the Slow-Down of Initiations and to the fund

          > raising effort is "Co-worker with the Mahanta."

          >

          > Again, both Twitchell and Gross used only

          > one term: "CO-WORKER WITH GOD."

          >

          > The FIRST definition is from PT's 1986 printing

          > of the ECKANKAR DICTIONARY and the SECOND

          > definition is from HK's 1998 ECK LEXICON.

          >

          > "CO-WORKER WITH GOD One who takes his

          > place in the guardianship of the beings and

          > entities throughout the worlds of God; voluntarily

          > gives great love and compassion to the worlds."

          > [pg.23]

          >

          > "Co-worker with God. One who takes his

          > place in the guardianship of the beings and

          > entities throughout the worlds of God; voluntarily

          > gives great love and compassion to the worlds,

          > an ECK MASTER." [pg.37]

          >

          > Notice the difference? Klemp added "an

          > ECK Master" to the definition of "Co-worker

          > with God!" Now, at what initiation does one

          > become an ECK Master? It's the 12th! And,

          > there has to be an Outer Third and Final Stage

          > to give confirmation to any Initiation of a Living

          > Person!

          >

          > So, how many ECKists can now achieve God-

          > Realization with Klemp in charge? So far it's

          > only the narcissist in charge, Kle
          mp, that has

          > the qualifications of God-Realization.

          >

          > Okay, let's look at Klemp's other new definition

          > of CO-WORKER WITH THE MAHANTA.

          >

          > "Co-worker with the Mahanta. One who is

          > IN TRAINING for ECK Mastership. To GIVE of

          > oneself to BRING the MESSAGE of ECK to others,

          > is ACTING as a Co-worker with the Mahanta."

          > [Lexicon pg.37 (my caps)]

          >

          > It's interesting to scrutinize Klemp's choice

          > of words in the above definition. I see it as

          > time-delay ploy due to his need for more

          > missionary/salespeople and to stress more

          > use of the imagination via "Acting" as if this

          > or that is true or possible.

          >

          > Remember, Twitchell promised ECKists

          > Spiritual Freedom and GOD-REALIZATION

          > IN THIS LIFETIME! What has Klemp done with

          > that promise? HK's "changed" it and took

          > it away! One has to be an ECK Master (12th)!

          >

          > For me it's now clear that Klemp is playing

          > the childish game of "King of the Mountain"

          > and he's not permitting anyone to get close

          > enough to pull him down or knock him off his

          > hill.

          >

          > Prometheus

          >

          >

          > Prometheus wrote:

          > I thought I'd make some comparisons

          > for everyone who didn't see this the

          > first time20around. Here are the three

          > sources.

          >

          > The Path of the Masters

          > PT's EK Dictionary

          > HK's EK Lexicon

          >

          > This article is to show where Twitchell

          > got his information, as well as, with how

          > and when Klemp began to revise it. It's

          > interesting that Klemp didn't understand

          > Twitchell's modus operandi and, therefore,

          > not only made spelling corrections to PT's

          > info, but other revisions and even omissions!

          >

          > The following is from "The Path of the Masters"

          > copyright 1939, eleventh edition 1977, 5. The

          > Zoroastrian Faith, pages 50-51.

          >

          > FYI-This covers information found in both

          > PT's ECKankar Dictionary and HK's ECKankar

          > Lexicon concerning The HOLY IMMORTALS

          > (RAYS or WAYS of light). These Beings are Not

          > to be confused with the Nine Silent Ones, or

          > with the Astral Rays]

          >

          > PATH: "According to Zarathustra, there are

          > six different WAYS the Supreme One has to

          > make himself known to men. They are called

          > also RAYS of light from the Supreme. They are

          > spoken of at times AS IF they were personalities

          > --- 'Amesh-spenta' --- HOLY IMMORTALS."

          >

          > NOTE: The first Three represent the Male

          > Principle; the next Three represent the Female

          > Principle, of
          the Divine.

          >

          > "They are:

          > 1) Asa-Vahista, the Supreme Will, manifested

          > in the world.

          >

          > 2) Vohu-Mano, meaning good mind, divine wisdom,

          > pure-mindedness.

          >

          > 3) Khashathra-Vairya, all creative, all sustaining

          > power.

          >

          > 4) Spenta-Armaiti, perfect piety with single minded

          > devotion.

          >

          > 5) Haurvatat, absolute wholeness, perfection,

          > spirituality.

          >

          > 6) Ameretatat, immortal life, freedom from death or

          > dissolution.

          >

          > *7) Ahura-Mazda

          >

          > *8) Sraosha, this Ray of the Divine One is something

          > that can be heard... this is the Shabd Dhun of Santon

          > ki Shikaha... it is the AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM of the Saints.

          >

          > These [first] six represent both the maternal and paternal

          > qualities of God, the first three the fatherly and the last

          > [next] three the motherly nature of the Surpreme. If we

          > add to these six the great central figure of Ahura-Mazda,

          > we have the SEVEN-fold Lord, as taught by the prophet

          > Zarathustra... In addition to the above mentioned SEVEN

          > RAYS of the divine One, he mentions another [8th] RAY

          > or POWER which he calls Shraosha or SRAOSHA."

          >

          > ******************************************************

          >

          > Next, we look at Twitchell's ECKa
          nkar Dictionary,

          > copyright 1973, *Sixth Printing 1986 (HK oversaw this).

          >

          > [NOTE: These "Rays or Ways" and "Holy Immortals"

          > are not to be confused with the Astral Rays (pg. 10)]

          >

          > 1) "ASA-VAHISTA, One of the six *RAYS of light

          > from the Divine; the Supreme Will, manifested in

          > the world.

          >

          > 2) VOHU-MANO, One of the six *RAYS of light

          > from the Divine; the good mind, divine wisdom,

          > pure mindedness.

          >

          > 3) KHASHATHRA-VAIRYA, One of the six *WAYS

          > the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF known

          > to man; one of the six RAYS of light from the

          > Divine known as the Ameshspenta; the all-creative,

          > all sustaining power.

          >

          > 4) SPENTA-ARMAITI, Perfect piety with single

          > minded devotion; one of the HOLY IMMORTALS.

          >

          > 5) HAURVATA, The *FIFTH RAY of light or *WAY

          > that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF

          > known to man; absolute, wholeness, perfection,

          > and spirituality.

          >

          > 6) AMERETATAT, One of the six RAYS of light

          > from the Divine; immortal life, freedom from

          > death or dissolution.

          >

          > *7) AMESHSPENTA, Means; HOLY IMMORTALS;

          > the six WAYS, or RAYS of light from the Divine,

          > that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF

          > known to man.

          >
          0D
          > 8) SRASOSHA, The *EIGHTH RAY or WAY the

          > Supreme SUGMAD has of making ITSELF known

          > to man; the ECK, that which can be heard, the

          > audible life stream."

          >

          > NOTE: See where Twitchell mentions the *Fifth and

          > *Eight Rays or Ways in their descriptions. Also, in

          > The Path of the Masters *"Amesh-spenta" --- Holy

          > Immortals is mentioned in referring to ALL of the

          > Rays or Ways, but P.T. alters the spelling and uses

          > this term as the 7th Ray or Way and as a substitution

          > for AHURA-MAZDA!

          >

          > BTW- It's interesting that Twitchell doesn't mention

          > Ahura-Mazda in his ECKankar Dictionary, but Klemp

          > does mention it in his EK Lexicon on page 5.

          >

          > "Ahura Mazda. A name used in ancient Persia for

          > the state of Godhood; Zoroaster's name for God."

          >

          > Here's more from Klemp's EK Lexicon:

          >

          > "Zarathustra. See Zoroaster" (pg.241)

          >

          > "Zoroaster. The Persian Avatar who taught Soul

          > Travel almost six hundred years before the coming

          > of Christ and his followers." (pg.243)

          >

          > Now let's see what Twitchell said:

          >

          > "ZARATHUSTRA, The Persian Sage who was one

          > of the MASTERS of the ANCIENT ORDER of the

          > VAIRAGI lived hundreds of years B.C." (pg.159)

          >

          > WOW! ANOTHER EC
          K MASTER!!! But Wait!

          >

          > "ZOROASTER, The Persian Avatar who taught

          > Soul Travel some few hundred years before the

          > coming of Christ, and his followers."

          >

          > I guess that Twitchell didn't realize they were one

          > and the same. Still, P.T. was the Mahanta wasn't

          > he? But, is Klemp really the Mahanta?

          >

          > Okay, let's now compare Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon

          > to the approved 1986 printing of Twitchell's ECKankar

          > Dictionary and to the info in the 1939 copyright of

          > Julian P. Johnson's "The Path of the Masters."

          >

          > BTW- In what year did Klemp become the "FULL"

          > Mahanta?

          >

          > ************************************************

          >

          > Klemp's 1998 "The ECKankar LexiCON:"

          >

          > 1) "Asha-Vahista. The FIRST of six RAYS of

          > light from the Divine; the supreme will manifested

          > in the world." (pg.12)

          >

          > 2) "Vohu-Mano. The SECOND of the six RAYS

          > of light from the Divine; the good mind, Divine,

          > Wisdom, pure mindedness." (pg.225)

          >

          > 3) "Khashathra-Vairya. The THIRD of the six

          > WAYS the supreme SUGMAD has to make

          > Itself known to man; one of the six RAYS

          > of light from the Divine known as the Amesha

          > Spentas; the all creative, all sustaining power."

          > (pg.114)

          >

          >
          4) "Armaiti. The FOURTH of the six RAYS of

          > light from the Divine; immortal life, freedom

          > from death or dissolution." (pg.11)

          >

          > 5) "Haurvatat. The FIFTH of six RAYS of light

          > or WAYS that the SUGMAD has to make

          > Itself known to man; absolute, wholeness,

          > perfection, and SPIRITUALITY." (pgs.86-87)

          >

          > 6) "Ameretat. The SIXTH of the six RAYS of

          > light from the Divine; immortal life, freedom

          > from death or dissolution." (pg.8)

          >

          > *NOTE: Klemp changed the spelling from

          > Ameretatat to Ameretat. from both sources.

          > Also, Klemp repeats the definition for the

          > FOURTH and SIXTH RAYS!

          >

          > *7) "Amesha Spentas. Holy immortals; the

          > six WAYS, or RAYS of light, from the Divine,

          > that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make

          > Itself known to man." (pg.8)

          >

          > *8) "Sraosha. In the Far Country, another

          > name for the ECK, that which can be heard,

          > the Audible Life Stream." (pg.200)

          >

          > It's interesting how speed reading reduced

          > Twitchell's comprehension since he missed

          > the 7th and 8th additions to the Six Rays or

          > Ways. Klemp, of course, copied the info and

          > decided to do his own alterations.

          >

          > This is just more proof of ECKankar's fraud!

          >

          > Here's a side-by-side c
          omparison of the

          > spellings of the *AMESH-SPENTA -- HOLY

          > IMMORTALS the Six (plus Two) RAYS and WAYS :

          >

          > The Path (1939)---PT (1973&1986)-------HK (1998)

          > Asa-Vahista..............Asa-Vahista.............Asha-Vahista

          > Vohu-Mano...............Vohu-Mano..............Vohu-Mano

          > Khashathra-Vairya..Khashathra-Vairya...Khashathra-Vairya

          > Spenta-Armaiti.........Spenta-Armaiti..........*Armaiti

          > Haurvatat....................*Haurvata................Haurvatat

          > Ameretatat.................Ameretatat...............*Ameretat

          > *Ahura-Mazda.........*Ameshspenta........*Amesha Spentas

          > Sraosha.......................*Srasosha.................Sraosha

          >

          > Notice that Klemp's rewrite matches "The Path

          > of the Masters" version more than Twitchell's,

          > but goes against the other two on "Ameretat!"

          >

          > ECKists should reread PT's EK Dictonary

          > and HK's EK Lexicon and compare the two!

          >

          > Prometheus

          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, I was looking at the definition of Margs (and the different ones) in the EK Lexicon. It s strange that a marg is defined as a path to God and
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 4, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello All,
            I was looking at the definition of Margs
            (and the different ones) in the EK Lexicon.
            It's strange that a "marg" is defined as "a
            path to God" and yet it is found within a
            religion that is supposed to be it's own
            path to God!

            The Path of the Masters lists these
            margs in Ch.2 Section 10:

            Gian-Marg
            Dharma-Marg
            Surat Shabd Marg
            Bhakti-Marg

            Klemp lists these under marg (pg.135):

            Arahata Marg
            Bhakti Marg
            ECK Marg
            Giani Marg
            Karma Marg
            Prapatti Marg
            Vahana Marg

            However, on page 22 of the EK Lexicon
            Klemp mentions the:

            Bihangham Marg.

            And, in The Holy Fire of ECK vol. 1 pgs.
            22-23 Klemp mentions the:

            Contemplative Marg/Order

            So, if these are all individual "paths to God"
            why do chelas need ECKankar or Radhasoami
            or Ruhani Satsang?

            Prometheus




            Prometheus wrote:
            Isn't it interesting that when the
            narcissistic Klemp "Slowed Down"
            the ECK Initiations (20 years ago?)
            that he, also, created more steps
            and hoops to jump through. HK
            refuses to share power, or his "brand"
            of spirituality.

            With Twitchell (and even Gross) there
            was SELF and GOD REALIZATION which
            was promised in THIS LIFETIME! What
            happened to the promise... Klemp!

            With Klemp was added SPIRITUAL
            REALIZATION between the other two!
            This term is not found in PT's ECKankar
            Dictionary or in the his Shariyats. It was
            created by Klemp after he slowed-down
            the initiations.

            "SPIRITUAL REALIZATION. A level of
            realization which come after SELF-Realization
            and before GOD-Realization. Includes
            mainly the initiations of the SIXTH and
            SEVENTH Circles." [pg. 198]

            However, this too is a Bait and Switch!
            Klemp is giving ECKists the impression
            that at the 8th Initiation (which few can
            achieve) one will experience God-Realization.
            BUT, in the Klemp's own words, only an
            ECK Master (a 12th Initiate) is God-Realized!
            Catch-22 again! Thus, 8ths, 9ths, 10ths,
            and 11ths are in a Limbo and are between
            Spiritual and God-Realization. Of course,
            one can always IMAGINE they are Higher
            in Consciousness (on the Inner). This is
            what works best for most ECKists.

            Another Klemp created term that is connected
            to the Slow-Down of Initiations and to the fund
            raising effort is "Co-worker with the Mahanta."

            Again, both Twitchell and Gross used only
            one term: "CO-WORKER WITH GOD."

            The FIRST definition is from PT's 1986 printing
            of the ECKANKAR DICTIONARY and the SECOND
            definition is from HK's 1998 ECK LEXICON.

            "CO-WORKER WITH GOD One who takes his
            place in the guardianship of the beings and
            entities throughout the worlds of God; voluntarily
            gives great love and compassion to the worlds."
            [pg.23]

            "Co-worker with God. One who takes his
            place in the guardianship of the beings and
            entities throughout the worlds of God; voluntarily
            gives great love and compassion to the worlds,
            an ECK MASTER." [pg.37]

            Notice the difference? Klemp added "an
            ECK Master" to the definition of "Co-worker
            with God!" Now, at what initiation does one
            become an ECK Master? It's the 12th! And,
            there has to be an Outer Third and Final Stage
            to give confirmation to any Initiation of a Living
            Person!

            So, how many ECKists can now achieve God-
            Realization with Klemp in charge? So far it's
            only the narcissist in charge, Klemp, that has
            the qualifications of God-Realization.

            Okay, let's look at Klemp's other new definition
            of CO-WORKER WITH THE MAHANTA.

            "Co-worker with the Mahanta. One who is
            IN TRAINING for ECK Mastership. To GIVE of
            oneself to BRING the MESSAGE of ECK to others,
            is ACTING as a Co-worker with the Mahanta."
            [Lexicon pg.37 (my caps)]

            It's interesting to scrutinize Klemp's choice
            of words in the above definition. I see it as
            time-delay ploy due to his need for more
            missionary/salespeople and to stress more
            use of the imagination via "Acting" as if this
            or that is true or possible.

            Remember, Twitchell promised ECKists
            Spiritual Freedom and GOD-REALIZATION
            IN THIS LIFETIME! What has Klemp done with
            that promise? HK's "changed" it and took
            it away! One has to be an ECK Master (12th)!

            For me it's now clear that Klemp is playing
            the childish game of "King of the Mountain"
            and he's not permitting anyone to get close
            enough to pull him down or knock him off his
            hill.

            Prometheus


            Prometheus wrote:
            I thought I'd make some comparisons
            for everyone who didn't see this the
            first time around. Here are the three
            sources.

            The Path of the Masters
            PT's EK Dictionary
            HK's EK Lexicon

            This article is to show where Twitchell
            got his information, as well as, with how
            and when Klemp began to revise it. It's
            interesting that Klemp didn't understand
            Twitchell's modus operandi and, therefore,
            not only made spelling corrections to PT's
            info, but other revisions and even omissions!

            The following is from "The Path of the Masters"
            copyright 1939, eleventh edition 1977, 5. The
            Zoroastrian Faith, pages 50-51.

            FYI-This covers information found in both
            PT's ECKankar Dictionary and HK's ECKankar
            Lexicon concerning The HOLY IMMORTALS
            (RAYS or WAYS of light). These Beings are Not
            to be confused with the Nine Silent Ones, or
            with the Astral Rays]

            PATH: "According to Zarathustra, there are
            six different WAYS the Supreme One has to
            make himself known to men. They are called
            also RAYS of light from the Supreme. They are
            spoken of at times AS IF they were personalities
            --- 'Amesh-spenta' --- HOLY IMMORTALS."

            NOTE: The first Three represent the Male
            Principle; the next Three represent the Female
            Principle, of the Divine.

            "They are:
            1) Asa-Vahista, the Supreme Will, manifested
            in the world.

            2) Vohu-Mano, meaning good mind, divine wisdom,
            pure-mindedness.

            3) Khashathra-Vairya, all creative, all sustaining
            power.

            4) Spenta-Armaiti, perfect piety with single minded
            devotion.

            5) Haurvatat, absolute wholeness, perfection,
            spirituality.

            6) Ameretatat, immortal life, freedom from death or
            dissolution.

            *7) Ahura-Mazda

            *8) Sraosha, this Ray of the Divine One is something
            that can be heard... this is the Shabd Dhun of Santon
            ki Shikaha... it is the AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM of the Saints.

            These [first] six represent both the maternal and paternal
            qualities of God, the first three the fatherly and the last
            [next] three the motherly nature of the Surpreme. If we
            add to these six the great central figure of Ahura-Mazda,
            we have the SEVEN-fold Lord, as taught by the prophet
            Zarathustra... In addition to the above mentioned SEVEN
            RAYS of the divine One, he mentions another [8th] RAY
            or POWER which he calls Shraosha or SRAOSHA."

            ******************************************************

            Next, we look at Twitchell's ECKankar Dictionary,
            copyright 1973, *Sixth Printing 1986 (HK oversaw this).

            [NOTE: These "Rays or Ways" and "Holy Immortals"
            are not to be confused with the Astral Rays (pg. 10)]

            1) "ASA-VAHISTA, One of the six *RAYS of light
            from the Divine; the Supreme Will, manifested in
            the world.

            2) VOHU-MANO, One of the six *RAYS of light
            from the Divine; the good mind, divine wisdom,
            pure mindedness.

            3) KHASHATHRA-VAIRYA, One of the six *WAYS
            the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF known
            to man; one of the six RAYS of light from the
            Divine known as the Ameshspenta; the all-creative,
            all sustaining power.

            4) SPENTA-ARMAITI, Perfect piety with single
            minded devotion; one of the HOLY IMMORTALS.

            5) HAURVATA, The *FIFTH RAY of light or *WAY
            that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF
            known to man; absolute, wholeness, perfection,
            and spirituality.

            6) AMERETATAT, One of the six RAYS of light
            from the Divine; immortal life, freedom from
            death or dissolution.

            *7) AMESHSPENTA, Means; HOLY IMMORTALS;
            the six WAYS, or RAYS of light from the Divine,
            that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF
            known to man.

            8) SRASOSHA, The *EIGHTH RAY or WAY the
            Supreme SUGMAD has of making ITSELF known
            to man; the ECK, that which can be heard, the
            audible life stream."

            NOTE: See where Twitchell mentions the *Fifth and
            *Eight Rays or Ways in their descriptions. Also, in
            The Path of the Masters *"Amesh-spenta" --- Holy
            Immortals is mentioned in referring to ALL of the
            Rays or Ways, but P.T. alters the spelling and uses
            this term as the 7th Ray or Way and as a substitution
            for AHURA-MAZDA!

            BTW- It's interesting that Twitchell doesn't mention
            Ahura-Mazda in his ECKankar Dictionary, but Klemp
            does mention it in his EK Lexicon on page 5.

            "Ahura Mazda. A name used in ancient Persia for
            the state of Godhood; Zoroaster's name for God."

            Here's more from Klemp's EK Lexicon:

            "Zarathustra. See Zoroaster" (pg.241)

            "Zoroaster. The Persian Avatar who taught Soul
            Travel almost six hundred years before the coming
            of Christ and his followers." (pg.243)

            Now let's see what Twitchell said:

            "ZARATHUSTRA, The Persian Sage who was one
            of the MASTERS of the ANCIENT ORDER of the
            VAIRAGI lived hundreds of years B.C." (pg.159)

            WOW! ANOTHER ECK MASTER!!! But Wait!

            "ZOROASTER, The Persian Avatar who taught
            Soul Travel some few hundred years before the
            coming of Christ, and his followers."

            I guess that Twitchell didn't realize they were one
            and the same. Still, P.T. was the Mahanta wasn't
            he? But, is Klemp really the Mahanta?

            Okay, let's now compare Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon
            to the approved 1986 printing of Twitchell's ECKankar
            Dictionary and to the info in the 1939 copyright of
            Julian P. Johnson's "The Path of the Masters."

            BTW- In what year did Klemp become the "FULL"
            Mahanta?

            ************************************************

            Klemp's 1998 "The ECKankar LexiCON:"

            1) "Asha-Vahista. The FIRST of six RAYS of
            light from the Divine; the supreme will manifested
            in the world." (pg.12)

            2) "Vohu-Mano. The SECOND of the six RAYS
            of light from the Divine; the good mind, Divine,
            Wisdom, pure mindedness." (pg.225)

            3) "Khashathra-Vairya. The THIRD of the six
            WAYS the supreme SUGMAD has to make
            Itself known to man; one of the six RAYS
            of light from the Divine known as the Amesha
            Spentas; the all creative, all sustaining power."
            (pg.114)

            4) "Armaiti. The FOURTH of the six RAYS of
            light from the Divine; immortal life, freedom
            from death or dissolution." (pg.11)

            5) "Haurvatat. The FIFTH of six RAYS of light
            or WAYS that the SUGMAD has to make
            Itself known to man; absolute, wholeness,
            perfection, and SPIRITUALITY." (pgs.86-87)

            6) "Ameretat. The SIXTH of the six RAYS of
            light from the Divine; immortal life, freedom
            from death or dissolution." (pg.8)

            *NOTE: Klemp changed the spelling from
            Ameretatat to Ameretat. from both sources.
            Also, Klemp repeats the definition for the
            FOURTH and SIXTH RAYS!

            *7) "Amesha Spentas. Holy immortals; the
            six WAYS, or RAYS of light, from the Divine,
            that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make
            Itself known to man." (pg.8)

            *8) "Sraosha. In the Far Country, another
            name for the ECK, that which can be heard,
            the Audible Life Stream." (pg.200)

            It's interesting how speed reading reduced
            Twitchell's comprehension since he missed
            the 7th and 8th additions to the Six Rays or
            Ways. Klemp, of course, copied the info and
            decided to do his own alterations.

            This is just more proof of ECKankar's fraud!

            Here's a side-by-side comparison of the
            spellings of the *AMESH-SPENTA -- HOLY
            IMMORTALS the Six (plus Two) RAYS and WAYS :

            The Path (1939)---PT (1973&1986)-------HK (1998)
            Asa-Vahista..............Asa-Vahista..............Asha-Vahista
            Vohu-Mano...............Vohu-Mano................Vohu-Mano
            Khashathra-Vairya..Khashathra-Vairya...Khashathra-Vairya
            Spenta-Armaiti.........Spenta-Armaiti.............*Armaiti
            Haurvatat....................*Haurvata...................Haurvatat
            Ameretatat.................Ameretatat..................*Ameretat
            *Ahura-Mazda.........*Ameshspenta...........*Amesha Spentas
            Sraosha.......................*Srasosha.....................Sraosha

            Notice that Klemp's rewrite matches "The Path
            of the Masters" version more than Twitchell's,
            but goes against the other two on "Ameretat!"

            ECKists should reread PT's EK Dictonary
            and HK's EK Lexicon and compare the two!

            Prometheus
          • prometheus_973
            I wanted to do another side-by-side comparison to show the original source (The Path of the Masters) for both Twitchell s and Klemp s ECKankar dogma. I now
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 6, 2008
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              I wanted to do another side-by-side comparison
              to show the original source (The Path of the Masters)
              for both Twitchell's and Klemp's ECKankar dogma.

              I now want to compare the definitions for these
              "Amesh-spenta" Holy Immortals Rays or Ways.

              The Path (1939)---PT (1973&1986)-------------HK (1998)
              1) Asa-Vahista..............Asa-Vahista........Asha-Vahista
              2) Vohu-Mano...............Vohu-Mano............Vohu-Mano
              3) Khashathra-Vairya..Khashathra-Vairya......Khashathra-Vairya
              4) Spenta-Armaiti........Spenta-Armaiti...........*Armaiti
              5) Haurvatat..............*Haurvata...............Haurvatat
              6) Ameretatat..............Ameretatat.............*Ameretat
              7) *Ahura-Mazda........*Ameshspenta............*Amesha Spentas
              8) Sraosha.................*Srasosha....................Sraosha

              Definitions:
              [BTW- All sources mention that these are, also,
              "of the six Ways or Rays of light from the Divine"]

              The PATH of the Masters__PT's Dictionary____HK's Lexicon

              1) the Supreme Will,_____the Supreme Will,___the supreme will
              manifested in the_______manifested in the___manifested in the
              world.___________________world.______________world.

              2) meaning good mind,___the good mind,_______the good mind,
              divine wisdom, pure-____divine wisdom,_______Divine, Wisdom,
              mindedness.__________pure mindedness._____pure mindedness.

              3) all creative, all_______known as the_________known as the
              sustaining power._____Ameshspenta; the_______Amesha Spentas; the
              ____________________all-creative, all________all creative, all
              ____________________sustaining power.______sustaining power.

              4) perfect piety with_____Perfect piety with________immortal life,
              single minded devotion__single minded devotion;__freedom from death
              ___________________one of the Holy Immortals__or dissolution

              5) absolute wholeness,__absolute, wholeness,_____absolute, wholeness,
              perfection, spirituality.__perfection, spirituality.___perfection, and
              ______________________________________SPIRITUALITY

              6) immortal life,_________immortal life,______________immortal life,
              freedom from death_____freedom from death______freedom from death
              or dissolution.__________or dissolution._____________or dissolution.

              7) the seven-fold________that the Supreme________that the Supreme
              Lord________________SUGMAD has to make___SUGMAD has to make
              ____________________ITSELF known to man.____Itself known to man.

              8) this is the Shabd_____the ECK, that which____another name for the
              Dhun of Santon ki______can be heard, the_____ECK, that which can be
              Shikaha... this Ray of___audible life stream.____heard, the Audible Life Stream
              the Divine One is
              something that can
              be heard... it is the
              Audible Life Stream
              of the Saints.

              BTW- Remember that the first three definitions are
              masculine traits (1-3) and the next three (4-6) are
              feminine traits.

              NOTE: What's really interesting is that Anthony
              Moore compiled this information while Joan
              Klemp and Mary Caroll Moore edited it!

              Plus, it was Harry's (the Mahanta's) responsibility
              to review this info and sign off on it!!! And, this
              EK Lexicon was printed only 10 years ago in 1998!

              Prometheus
              p.s. FYI- I had to edit the above columns two
              times so those getting emails will have duplicates.


              Prometheus wrote:
              I was looking at the definition of Margs
              (and the different ones) in the EK Lexicon.
              It's strange that a "marg" is defined as "a
              path to God" and yet it is found within a
              religion that is supposed to be it's own
              path to God!

              The Path of the Masters lists these
              margs in Ch.2 Section 10:

              Gian-Marg
              Dharma-Marg
              Surat Shabd Marg
              Bhakti-Marg

              Klemp lists these under marg (pg.135):

              Arahata Marg
              Bhakti Marg
              ECK Marg
              Giani Marg
              Karma Marg
              Prapatti Marg
              Vahana Marg

              However, on page 22 of the EK Lexicon
              Klemp mentions the:

              Bihangham Marg.

              And, in The Holy Fire of ECK vol. 1 pgs.
              22-23 Klemp mentions the:

              Contemplative Marg/Order

              So, if these are all individual "paths to God"
              why do chelas need ECKankar or Radhasoami
              or Ruhani Satsang?

              Prometheus




              Prometheus wrote:
              Isn't it interesting that when the
              narcissistic Klemp "Slowed Down"
              the ECK Initiations (20 years ago?)
              that he, also, created more steps
              and hoops to jump through. HK
              refuses to share power, or his "brand"
              of spirituality.

              With Twitchell (and even Gross) there
              was SELF and GOD REALIZATION which
              was promised in THIS LIFETIME! What
              happened to the promise... Klemp!

              With Klemp was added SPIRITUAL
              REALIZATION between the other two!
              This term is not found in PT's ECKankar
              Dictionary or in the his Shariyats. It was
              created by Klemp after he slowed-down
              the initiations.

              "SPIRITUAL REALIZATION. A level of
              realization which come after SELF-Realization
              and before GOD-Realization. Includes
              mainly the initiations of the SIXTH and
              SEVENTH Circles." [pg. 198]

              However, this too is a Bait and Switch!
              Klemp is giving ECKists the impression
              that at the 8th Initiation (which few can
              achieve) one will experience God-Realization.
              BUT, in the Klemp's own words, only an
              ECK Master (a 12th Initiate) is God-Realized!
              Catch-22 again! Thus, 8ths, 9ths, 10ths,
              and 11ths are in a Limbo and are between
              Spiritual and God-Realization. Of course,
              one can always IMAGINE they are Higher
              in Consciousness (on the Inner). This is
              what works best for most ECKists.

              Another Klemp created term that is connected
              to the Slow-Down of Initiations and to the fund
              raising effort is "Co-worker with the Mahanta."

              Again, both Twitchell and Gross used only
              one term: "CO-WORKER WITH GOD."

              The FIRST definition is from PT's 1986 printing
              of the ECKANKAR DICTIONARY and the SECOND
              definition is from HK's 1998 ECK LEXICON.

              "CO-WORKER WITH GOD One who takes his
              place in the guardianship of the beings and
              entities throughout the worlds of God; voluntarily
              gives great love and compassion to the worlds."
              [pg.23]

              "Co-worker with God. One who takes his
              place in the guardianship of the beings and
              entities throughout the worlds of God; voluntarily
              gives great love and compassion to the worlds,
              an ECK MASTER." [pg.37]

              Notice the difference? Klemp added "an
              ECK Master" to the definition of "Co-worker
              with God!" Now, at what initiation does one
              become an ECK Master? It's the 12th! And,
              there has to be an Outer Third and Final Stage
              to give confirmation to any Initiation of a Living
              Person!

              So, how many ECKists can now achieve God-
              Realization with Klemp in charge? So far it's
              only the narcissist in charge, Klemp, that has
              the qualifications of God-Realization.

              Okay, let's look at Klemp's other new definition
              of CO-WORKER WITH THE MAHANTA.

              "Co-worker with the Mahanta. One who is
              IN TRAINING for ECK Mastership. To GIVE of
              oneself to BRING the MESSAGE of ECK to others,
              is ACTING as a Co-worker with the Mahanta."
              [Lexicon pg.37 (my caps)]

              It's interesting to scrutinize Klemp's choice
              of words in the above definition. I see it as
              time-delay ploy due to his need for more
              missionary/salespeople and to stress more
              use of the imagination via "Acting" as if this
              or that is true or possible.

              Remember, Twitchell promised ECKists
              Spiritual Freedom and GOD-REALIZATION
              IN THIS LIFETIME! What has Klemp done with
              that promise? HK's "changed" it and took
              it away! One has to be an ECK Master (12th)!

              For me it's now clear that Klemp is playing
              the childish game of "King of the Mountain"
              and he's not permitting anyone to get close
              enough to pull him down or knock him off his
              hill.

              Prometheus

              ********************************************
              The Holy Immortals - Rays or Ways

              Prometheus wrote:
              I thought I'd make some comparisons
              for everyone who didn't see this the
              first time around. Here are the three
              sources.

              The Path of the Masters
              PT's EK Dictionary
              HK's EK Lexicon

              This article is to show where Twitchell
              got his information, as well as, with how
              and when Klemp began to revise it. It's
              interesting that Klemp didn't understand
              Twitchell's modus operandi and, therefore,
              not only made spelling corrections to PT's
              info, but other revisions and even omissions!

              The following is from "The Path of the Masters"
              copyright 1939, eleventh edition 1977, 5. The
              Zoroastrian Faith, pages 50-51.

              FYI-This covers information found in both
              PT's ECKankar Dictionary and HK's ECKankar
              Lexicon concerning The HOLY IMMORTALS
              (RAYS or WAYS of light). These Beings are Not
              to be confused with the Nine Silent Ones, or
              with the Astral Rays]

              PATH: "According to Zarathustra, there are
              six different WAYS the Supreme One has to
              make himself known to men. They are called
              also RAYS of light from the Supreme. They are
              spoken of at times AS IF they were personalities
              --- 'Amesh-spenta' --- HOLY IMMORTALS."

              NOTE: The first Three represent the Male
              Principle; the next Three represent the Female
              Principle, of the Divine.

              "They are:
              1) Asa-Vahista, the Supreme Will, manifested
              in the world.

              2) Vohu-Mano, meaning good mind, divine wisdom,
              pure-mindedness.

              3) Khashathra-Vairya, all creative, all sustaining
              power.

              4) Spenta-Armaiti, perfect piety with single minded
              devotion.

              5) Haurvatat, absolute wholeness, perfection,
              spirituality.

              6) Ameretatat, immortal life, freedom from death or
              dissolution.

              *7) Ahura-Mazda, the seven-fold Lord.

              *8) Sraosha, this Ray of the Divine One is something
              that can be heard... this is the Shabd Dhun of Santon
              ki Shikaha... it is the AUDIBLE LIFE STREAM of the Saints.

              These [first] six represent both the maternal and paternal
              qualities of God, the first three the fatherly and the last
              [next] three the motherly nature of the Surpreme. If we
              add to these six the great central figure of Ahura-Mazda,
              we have the SEVEN-fold Lord, as taught by the prophet
              Zarathustra... In addition to the above mentioned SEVEN
              RAYS of the divine One, he mentions another [8th] RAY
              or POWER which he calls Shraosha or SRAOSHA."

              ******************************************************

              Next, we look at Twitchell's ECKankar Dictionary,
              copyright 1973, *Sixth Printing 1986 (HK oversaw this).

              [NOTE: These "Rays or Ways" and "Holy Immortals"
              are not to be confused with the Astral Rays (pg. 10)]

              1) "ASA-VAHISTA, One of the six *RAYS of light
              from the Divine; the Supreme Will, manifested in
              the world.

              2) VOHU-MANO, One of the six *RAYS of light
              from the Divine; the good mind, divine wisdom,
              pure mindedness.

              3) KHASHATHRA-VAIRYA, One of the six *WAYS
              the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF known
              to man; one of the six RAYS of light from the
              Divine known as the Ameshspenta; the all-creative,
              all sustaining power.

              4) SPENTA-ARMAITI, Perfect piety with single
              minded devotion; one of the HOLY IMMORTALS.

              5) HAURVATA, The *FIFTH RAY of light or *WAY
              that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF
              known to man; absolute, wholeness, perfection,
              and spirituality.

              6) AMERETATAT, One of the six RAYS of light
              from the Divine; immortal life, freedom from
              death or dissolution.

              *7) AMESHSPENTA, Means; HOLY IMMORTALS;
              the six WAYS, or RAYS of light from the Divine,
              that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make ITSELF
              known to man.

              8) SRASOSHA, The *EIGHTH RAY or WAY the
              Supreme SUGMAD has of making ITSELF known
              to man; the ECK, that which can be heard, the
              audible life stream."

              NOTE: See where Twitchell mentions the *Fifth and
              *Eight Rays or Ways in their descriptions. Also, in
              The Path of the Masters *"Amesh-spenta" --- Holy
              Immortals is mentioned in referring to ALL of the
              Rays or Ways, but P.T. alters the spelling and uses
              this term as the 7th Ray or Way and as a substitution
              for AHURA-MAZDA!

              BTW- It's interesting that Twitchell doesn't mention
              Ahura-Mazda in his ECKankar Dictionary, but Klemp
              does mention it in his EK Lexicon on page 5.

              "Ahura Mazda. A name used in ancient Persia for
              the state of Godhood; Zoroaster's name for God."

              Here's more from Klemp's EK Lexicon:

              "Zarathustra. See Zoroaster" (pg.241)

              "Zoroaster. The Persian Avatar who taught Soul
              Travel almost six hundred years before the coming
              of Christ and his followers." (pg.243)

              Now let's see what Twitchell said:

              "ZARATHUSTRA, The Persian Sage who was one
              of the MASTERS of the ANCIENT ORDER of the
              VAIRAGI lived hundreds of years B.C." (pg.159)

              WOW! ANOTHER ECK MASTER!!! But Wait!

              "ZOROASTER, The Persian Avatar who taught
              Soul Travel some few hundred years before the
              coming of Christ, and his followers."

              I guess that Twitchell didn't realize they were one
              and the same. Still, P.T. was the Mahanta wasn't
              he? But, is Klemp really the Mahanta?

              Okay, let's now compare Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon
              to the approved 1986 printing of Twitchell's ECKankar
              Dictionary and to the info in the 1939 copyright of
              Julian P. Johnson's "The Path of the Masters."

              BTW- In what year did Klemp become the "FULL"
              Mahanta?

              ************************************************

              Klemp's 1998 "The ECKankar LexiCON:"

              1) "Asha-Vahista. The FIRST of six RAYS of
              light from the Divine; the supreme will manifested
              in the world." (pg.12)

              2) "Vohu-Mano. The SECOND of the six RAYS
              of light from the Divine; the good mind, Divine,
              Wisdom, pure mindedness." (pg.225)

              3) "Khashathra-Vairya. The THIRD of the six
              WAYS the supreme SUGMAD has to make
              Itself known to man; one of the six RAYS
              of light from the Divine known as the Amesha
              Spentas; the all creative, all sustaining power."
              (pg.114)

              4) "Armaiti. The FOURTH of the six RAYS of
              light from the Divine; immortal life, freedom
              from death or dissolution." (pg.11)

              5) "Haurvatat. The FIFTH of six RAYS of light
              or WAYS that the SUGMAD has to make
              Itself known to man; absolute, wholeness,
              perfection, and SPIRITUALITY." (pgs.86-87)

              6) "Ameretat. The SIXTH of the six RAYS of
              light from the Divine; immortal life, freedom
              from death or dissolution." (pg.8)

              *NOTE: Klemp changed the spelling from
              Ameretatat to Ameretat. from both sources.
              Also, Klemp repeats the definition for the
              FOURTH and SIXTH RAYS!

              *7) "Amesha Spentas. Holy immortals; the
              six WAYS, or RAYS of light, from the Divine,
              that the Supreme SUGMAD has to make
              Itself known to man." (pg.8)

              *8) "Sraosha. In the Far Country, another
              name for the ECK, that which can be heard,
              the Audible Life Stream." (pg.200)

              It's interesting how speed reading reduced
              Twitchell's comprehension since he missed
              the 7th and 8th additions to the Six Rays or
              Ways. Klemp, of course, copied the info and
              decided to do his own alterations.

              This is just more proof of ECKankar's fraud!

              Here's a side-by-side comparison of the
              spellings of the *AMESH-SPENTA -- HOLY
              IMMORTALS the Six (plus Two) RAYS and WAYS :

              The Path (1939)---PT (1973&1986)-------HK (1998)
              Asa-Vahista..............Asa-Vahista..............Asha-Vahista
              Vohu-Mano...............Vohu-Mano................Vohu-Mano
              Khashathra-Vairya..Khashathra-Vairya...Khashathra-Vairya
              Spenta-Armaiti.........Spenta-Armaiti.............*Armaiti
              Haurvatat....................*Haurvata...................Haurvatat
              Ameretatat.................Ameretatat..................*Ameretat
              *Ahura-Mazda.........*Ameshspenta...........*Amesha Spentas
              Sraosha.......................*Srasosha.....................Sraosha

              Notice that Klemp's rewrite matches "The Path
              of the Masters" version more than Twitchell's,
              but goes against the other two on "Ameretat!"

              ECKists should reread PT's EK Dictonary
              and HK's EK Lexicon and compare the two!

              Prometheus
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