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Re: More on HK & DG and ECKankar Threats

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  • D.R.D.
    Responded to this thread earlier in the evening. Mentioned that I had not received Yahoo Groups messages in the past few days. They were bouncing. Apparently,
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 1, 2008
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      Responded to this thread earlier
      in the evening. Mentioned that I had
      not received Yahoo Groups messages in
      the past few days. They were bouncing.

      Apparently, that response bounced
      too? Anyhow, I think my Yahoo e-mail
      is normal (and working) now.

      Etznab

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
      <drubezarne@...> wrote:
      >
      > Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by
      > Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got
      > rid of all my Eckankar materials, so there goes my documentation.
      All
      > I have left is my faulty memory and I'm trying to forget as much as
      I
      > can and move on to better things.
      >
      > So, anyway, keep up the good work because right now I don't see
      > anybody else bothering to bring out the truth about Eckankar and its
      > leader. There's plenty of information on the Internet, but most of
      it
      > is old.
      >
      > Regards
      > Liska
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello Liska and All,
      > > I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
      > > the devil is in the details. Therefore,
      > > I don't see that there has been too much
      > > focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
      > > The little pictures tend to complete the
      > > big picture. I don't see anything trivial.
      > >
      > > For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
      > > at and piecing together the missing parts
      > > to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
      > > the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
      > > pieces sooner or pay more attention and
      > > why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.
      > >
      > > However, if you want to focus more on the
      > > "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
      > > thinking that the focus here has been on both
      > > the big and the small pictures.
      > >
      > > But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
      > > a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
      > > and this could be put into a Folder. This would
      > > show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
      > > delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
      > > character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
      > > early writings and to what he has unwittingly
      > > divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
      > > bigger picture?
      > >
      > > For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
      > > Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
      > > ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
      > > or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
      > > Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
      > > met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
      > > transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
      > > One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
      > > as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
      > > of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).
      > >
      > > The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
      > > when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
      > > that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
      > > 2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
      > > "common language" for AUM.
      > >
      > > When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
      > > of the Light and Sound of God?
      > >
      > > Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"
      > >
      > > When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
      > > spin?
      > >
      > > When was the RESA org. first created?
      > >
      > > When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
      > > and Why?
      > >
      > > When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
      > > the Mahanta?"
      > >
      > > When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"
      > >
      > > BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
      > > as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
      > > the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
      > > the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
      > > thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
      > > "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
      > > Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
      > > intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]
      > >
      > > And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
      > > and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
      > > die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
      > > him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
      > > Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
      > > is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
      > > that makes any religion work and explains away it all
      > > for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!
      > >
      > > Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
      > > and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
      > > to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      > >
      > >
      > > pjr_sr wrote:
      > > Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm
      wondering
      > > if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
      > > pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely
      at
      > > something and missing the bigger picture.
      > >
      > > Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would
      see
      > > signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
      > > giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
      > > would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his
      own
      > > followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
      > > anybody who has the courage to leave him.
      > >
      > > I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp
      has
      > > said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
      > > this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
      > > other spiritual/religious principles.
      > >
      > > For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab,
      since
      > > you said you are interested in researching and compiling
      Eckankar's
      > > record, then you could help out here.
      > >
      > > Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...
      > >
      > > 1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in
      all
      > > the universes.
      > >
      > > 2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with
      each
      > > of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
      > > times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with
      you."
      > >
      > > 3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
      > > numerously the "Awakened Dream".
      > >
      > > 4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar),
      thus
      > > making it the main focus for eckists.
      > >
      > > Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
      > > and then we could examine each.
      > >
      > > Regards
      > > Liska
      > >
      > >
      > > mishmisha9@wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
      > > > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
      > > > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
      > > > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
      > > > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
      > > > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
      > > > point that out.
      > > >
      > > > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
      > > > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
      > > > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
      > > > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
      > > > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
      > > > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
      > > > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
      > > > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
      > > > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
      > > >
      > > > Mish
      > > >
      > >
      > > drubezarne@wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another
      of
      > the 3
      > > > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
      > > > > riddance to bad rubbish.
      > > > >
      > > > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got
      > rid of
      > > > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked
      by the
      > > > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years
      before
      > > > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of
      Eck
      > > > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't
      ready
      > for it
      > > > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
      > > > >
      > > > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's
      how he
      > > > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due
      > to the
      > > > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is
      higher up on
      > > > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to
      > say that
      > > > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today
      holds a
      > > > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
      > > > >
      > > > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only
      declares
      > > > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta
      mantle,
      > but he
      > > > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous
      > master.
      > > > >
      > > > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to
      Darwin
      > > > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot
      while
      > > > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how
      he was
      > > > > just another delusional eckist.
      > > > >
      > > > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once
      all the
      > > > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a
      great
      > > > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
      > > > >
      > > > > Regards
      > > > > Liska
      > > > >
      > >
      > > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hi Liska,
      > > > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
      > > > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
      > > > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
      > > > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
      > > > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
      > > > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
      > > > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
      > > > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
      > > > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
      > > > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
      > > > > >
      > > > > > However, we can all see the proof that
      > > > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
      > > > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
      > > > > >
      > > > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
      > > > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
      > > > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
      > > > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
      > > > > > on his behalf.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
      > > > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
      > > > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
      > > > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
      > > > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
      > > > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
      > > > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
      > > > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
      > > > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
      > > > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
      > > > > >
      > > > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
      > > > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
      > > > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
      > > > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
      > > > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
      > > > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
      > > > > > Darwin Gross.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
      > > > > > setting up some files for various subjects
      > > > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Prometheus
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Liska wrote:
      > > > > > Prometheus,
      > > > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
      > > > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
      > > > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
      > > > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
      > > > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
      > > > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
      > > > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
      > > > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
      > > > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
      > > > > > Master.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
      > > > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
      > > > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
      > > > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
      > > > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
      > > > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
      > > > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
      > > > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
      > > > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
      > > > > > Third Series, p 76).
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
      > > > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
      > > > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
      > > > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
      > > > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
      > > > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
      > > > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
      > > > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
      > > > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
      > > > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
      > > > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
      > > > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
      > > > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
      > > > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
      > > > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
      > > > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
      > > > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
      > > > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
      > > > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
      > > > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
      > > > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
      > > > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
      > > > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
      > > > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
      > > > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
      > > > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
      > > > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
      > > > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Regards
      > > > > > Liska
      > > > > >
      > > > > > prometheus wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
      > > > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
      > > > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
      > > > > > > get together with family and friends
      > > > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
      > > > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
      > > > > >
      > >
      >
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