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Re: More on HK & DG and ECKankar Threats

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  • drubezarne
    Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got rid of all my Eckankar
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 30, 2008
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      Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by
      Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got
      rid of all my Eckankar materials, so there goes my documentation. All
      I have left is my faulty memory and I'm trying to forget as much as I
      can and move on to better things.

      So, anyway, keep up the good work because right now I don't see
      anybody else bothering to bring out the truth about Eckankar and its
      leader. There's plenty of information on the Internet, but most of it
      is old.

      Regards
      Liska

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Liska and All,
      > I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
      > the devil is in the details. Therefore,
      > I don't see that there has been too much
      > focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
      > The little pictures tend to complete the
      > big picture. I don't see anything trivial.
      >
      > For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
      > at and piecing together the missing parts
      > to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
      > the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
      > pieces sooner or pay more attention and
      > why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.
      >
      > However, if you want to focus more on the
      > "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
      > thinking that the focus here has been on both
      > the big and the small pictures.
      >
      > But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
      > a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
      > and this could be put into a Folder. This would
      > show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
      > delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
      > character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
      > early writings and to what he has unwittingly
      > divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
      > bigger picture?
      >
      > For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
      > Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
      > ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
      > or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
      > Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
      > met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
      > transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
      > One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
      > as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
      > of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).
      >
      > The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
      > when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
      > that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
      > 2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
      > "common language" for AUM.
      >
      > When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
      > of the Light and Sound of God?
      >
      > Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"
      >
      > When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
      > spin?
      >
      > When was the RESA org. first created?
      >
      > When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
      > and Why?
      >
      > When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
      > the Mahanta?"
      >
      > When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"
      >
      > BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
      > as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
      > the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
      > the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
      > thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
      > "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
      > Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
      > intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]
      >
      > And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
      > and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
      > die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
      > him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
      > Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
      > is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
      > that makes any religion work and explains away it all
      > for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!
      >
      > Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
      > and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
      > to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > pjr_sr wrote:
      > Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm wondering
      > if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
      > pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely at
      > something and missing the bigger picture.
      >
      > Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would see
      > signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
      > giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
      > would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his own
      > followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
      > anybody who has the courage to leave him.
      >
      > I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp has
      > said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
      > this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
      > other spiritual/religious principles.
      >
      > For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab, since
      > you said you are interested in researching and compiling Eckankar's
      > record, then you could help out here.
      >
      > Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...
      >
      > 1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in all
      > the universes.
      >
      > 2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with each
      > of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
      > times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with you."
      >
      > 3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
      > numerously the "Awakened Dream".
      >
      > 4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar), thus
      > making it the main focus for eckists.
      >
      > Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
      > and then we could examine each.
      >
      > Regards
      > Liska
      >
      >
      > mishmisha9@wrote:
      > >
      > > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
      > > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
      > > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
      > > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
      > > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
      > > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
      > > point that out.
      > >
      > > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
      > > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
      > > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
      > > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
      > > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
      > > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
      > > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
      > > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
      > > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
      > >
      > > Mish
      > >
      >
      > drubezarne@wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another of
      the 3
      > > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
      > > > riddance to bad rubbish.
      > > >
      > > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got
      rid of
      > > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked by the
      > > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years before
      > > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of Eck
      > > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't ready
      for it
      > > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
      > > >
      > > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's how he
      > > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due
      to the
      > > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is higher up on
      > > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to
      say that
      > > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today holds a
      > > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
      > > >
      > > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only declares
      > > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta mantle,
      but he
      > > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous
      master.
      > > >
      > > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to Darwin
      > > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot while
      > > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how he was
      > > > just another delusional eckist.
      > > >
      > > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once all the
      > > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a great
      > > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
      > > >
      > > > Regards
      > > > Liska
      > > >
      >
      > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Liska,
      > > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
      > > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
      > > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
      > > > >
      > > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
      > > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
      > > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
      > > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
      > > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
      > > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
      > > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
      > > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
      > > > >
      > > > > However, we can all see the proof that
      > > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
      > > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
      > > > >
      > > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
      > > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
      > > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
      > > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
      > > > > on his behalf.
      > > > >
      > > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
      > > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
      > > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
      > > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
      > > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
      > > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
      > > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
      > > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
      > > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
      > > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
      > > > >
      > > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
      > > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
      > > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
      > > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
      > > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
      > > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
      > > > > Darwin Gross.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
      > > > > setting up some files for various subjects
      > > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Prometheus
      > > > >
      > > > > Liska wrote:
      > > > > Prometheus,
      > > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
      > > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
      > > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
      > > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
      > > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
      > > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
      > > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
      > > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
      > > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
      > > > > Master.
      > > > >
      > > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
      > > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
      > > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
      > > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
      > > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
      > > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
      > > > >
      > > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
      > > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
      > > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
      > > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
      > > > > Third Series, p 76).
      > > > >
      > > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
      > > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
      > > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
      > > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
      > > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
      > > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
      > > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
      > > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
      > > > >
      > > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
      > > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
      > > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
      > > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
      > > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
      > > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
      > > > >
      > > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
      > > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
      > > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
      > > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
      > > > >
      > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
      > > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
      > > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
      > > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
      > > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
      > > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
      > > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
      > > > >
      > > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
      > > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
      > > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
      > > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
      > > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
      > > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
      > > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
      > > > >
      > > > > Regards
      > > > > Liska
      > > > >
      > > > > prometheus wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
      > > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
      > > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
      > > > > > get together with family and friends
      > > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
      > > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
      > > > >
      >
    • D.R.D.
      Responded to this thread earlier in the evening. Mentioned that I had not received Yahoo Groups messages in the past few days. They were bouncing. Apparently,
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 1, 2008
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        Responded to this thread earlier
        in the evening. Mentioned that I had
        not received Yahoo Groups messages in
        the past few days. They were bouncing.

        Apparently, that response bounced
        too? Anyhow, I think my Yahoo e-mail
        is normal (and working) now.

        Etznab

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne"
        <drubezarne@...> wrote:
        >
        > Prometheus, on second thought, 27 years of lies and misdirection by
        > Klemp the charlatan could be too much for anybody to unravel. I got
        > rid of all my Eckankar materials, so there goes my documentation.
        All
        > I have left is my faulty memory and I'm trying to forget as much as
        I
        > can and move on to better things.
        >
        > So, anyway, keep up the good work because right now I don't see
        > anybody else bothering to bring out the truth about Eckankar and its
        > leader. There's plenty of information on the Internet, but most of
        it
        > is old.
        >
        > Regards
        > Liska
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello Liska and All,
        > > I can't speak for Mish, but with Klemp
        > > the devil is in the details. Therefore,
        > > I don't see that there has been too much
        > > focus on "trivial aspects of ECKankar."
        > > The little pictures tend to complete the
        > > big picture. I don't see anything trivial.
        > >
        > > For me, it's kind of like finding, looking
        > > at and piecing together the missing parts
        > > to a giant puzzle. And, I enjoy exploring
        > > the details as to why I didn't see the connecting
        > > pieces sooner or pay more attention and
        > > why I trusted others to complete my puzzle.
        > >
        > > However, if you want to focus more on the
        > > "bigger picture" then feel free to do so. I was
        > > thinking that the focus here has been on both
        > > the big and the small pictures.
        > >
        > > But, maybe we could [with Etznab's help] do
        > > a word document of a "Klemp Time-Line"
        > > and this could be put into a Folder. This would
        > > show HK's nasty, mean spirited, arrested development,
        > > delusional, deceitful and narcissistic side to his
        > > character. However, we'll need to look at HK's
        > > early writings and to what he has unwittingly
        > > divulged about his flaws. Wouldn't this show the
        > > bigger picture?
        > >
        > > For Example: In CH. 7 of "Soul Travelers of the Far
        > > Country" Klemp reveals that he was working at the
        > > ESC (daily) in a "Sound PROOF DARK Room (no LIGHT
        > > or SOUND)," and that Darwin "hesitated" to meet with
        > > Klemp there, but that Klemp talked DG into it. They
        > > met in this room at least twice in order to plan the
        > > transition and the passing of the Rod in October 1981.
        > > One wonders why ECKists overlook a detail as significant
        > > as this, especially, when ECKankar claims to be the Religion
        > > of the "Light & Sound" of God (versus SUGMAD).
        > >
        > > The ironies are: 1) Klemp called Darwin a "Black Magician"
        > > when HK was the one who worked daily in an environment
        > > that eliminated the presence of Light and Sound (the ECK);"
        > > 2) God is "common language" for SUGMAD, but HU is NOT
        > > "common language" for AUM.
        > >
        > > When did Klemp first change ECKankar into, The "Religion"
        > > of the Light and Sound of God?
        > >
        > > Why isn't SUGMAD's name really used instead of "God?"
        > >
        > > When did Klemp first come out with his "common language"
        > > spin?
        > >
        > > When was the RESA org. first created?
        > >
        > > When did Klemp come out with "Slowing Down Initiations"
        > > and Why?
        > >
        > > When & Why did Klemp first add being a "Co-worker with
        > > the Mahanta?"
        > >
        > > When & Why did Klemp first add the term "Spiritual-Realization?"
        > >
        > > BTW- Wasn't that quote where HK refers to himself
        > > as God incarnate from 2004? It would be nice to have
        > > the exact quote and source. Of course, Twit created
        > > the Mahanta title to be greater than the 4th Plane "God,"
        > > thus, even ECK 5th (Plane) Initiates are greater than the
        > > "God" that other religions worship! Right? Maybe EK
        > > Vahanas should mention this little know "fact" at public
        > > intros! [Page 385 Autobiography of a Modern Prophet]
        > >
        > > And yes, Klemp talks about giving ECKists Protection
        > > and of always being with them, but he allows his H.I.s to
        > > die of cancer! And, HK needs physical reports mailed to
        > > him because he doesn't receive anything from the "Inner."
        > > Klemp doesn't need to prove himself because the chela
        > > is always at fault... it's never him! This is the Catch-22
        > > that makes any religion work and explains away it all
        > > for the gullible and delusional believer/follower!
        > >
        > > Anyway, as you can see there's a lot to look at
        > > and I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. If you want
        > > to then Go For It, and I'll see if I can help out some.
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        > >
        > > pjr_sr wrote:
        > > Mish and Prometheus, I agree with what you both say, but I'm
        wondering
        > > if we are too focused on the trivial aspects of Eckankar and its
        > > pseudo-master Harold Klemp. It's as if we're looking too closely
        at
        > > something and missing the bigger picture.
        > >
        > > Yes, we know that Klemp lacks compassion. If he had it, we would
        see
        > > signs of it such as him traveling the world and helping people by
        > > giving more talks, meeting with them personally, etc. His writing
        > > would reflect this also. Instead, he criticises and denounces his
        own
        > > followers, reviles other religions and their leaders, and attacks
        > > anybody who has the courage to leave him.
        > >
        > > I propose we focus on the larger picture and that is what Klemp
        has
        > > said over the years and then examine his pronouncements. We can do
        > > this with common sense, personal experience, and a comparison with
        > > other spiritual/religious principles.
        > >
        > > For example, let's start by listing Klemp's main ideas. Etznab,
        since
        > > you said you are interested in researching and compiling
        Eckankar's
        > > record, then you could help out here.
        > >
        > > Here's the beginning of Klemp's accomplishments...
        > >
        > > 1. He stated he is the divine incarnation of God on earth and in
        all
        > > the universes.
        > >
        > > 2. Due to his God-like nature, Klemp said he is able to be with
        each
        > > of his followers on the inner planes. He announced this numerous
        > > times at the end of his talks when he said, "I am always with
        you."
        > >
        > > 3. He emphasized following signs by announcing and repeating
        > > numerously the "Awakened Dream".
        > >
        > > 4. He stressed the importance of service to the Eck (Eckankar),
        thus
        > > making it the main focus for eckists.
        > >
        > > Maybe somebody else can add to this list of Klemp achievements
        > > and then we could examine each.
        > >
        > > Regards
        > > Liska
        > >
        > >
        > > mishmisha9@wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Liska, you're right who should care about Darwin Gross,
        > > > really, but I think it is interesting that a former mahanta
        > > > is treated so callously by the present mahanta, especially
        > > > since they have a personal history. I think the silent treatment
        > > > that HK uses in regards to the passing of Gross is just another
        > > > example of HK's lack of compassion. I think it is good to
        > > > point that out.
        > > >
        > > > I don't think Gross from what I have heard displayed such
        > > > hatefulness that HK does. Gross was a fraud but was he
        > > > mean and unloving like HK? And of course, HK is a
        > > > narcissist! I'm not sure about Gross. One big difference
        > > > with these con mahantas is that both Twitchell and Gross
        > > > were fun loving, but the hermit HK doesn't seem to know
        > > > how to have fun unless playing Miss Pacman at an arcade
        > > > counts--HK certainly is arrested in his social development.
        > > > Maybe, that is another trait of a narcissist?
        > > >
        > > > Mish
        > > >
        > >
        > > drubezarne@wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Prometheus, who cares about Darwin Gross. He was just another
        of
        > the 3
        > > > > Eckankar frauds. He doesn't deserve any compassion. I say good
        > > > > riddance to bad rubbish.
        > > > >
        > > > > Klemp's narcissism is interesting. Do you remember when he got
        > rid of
        > > > > Gross and then rewrote his own history? He said, he was asked
        by the
        > > > > Eck Master hierarchy to become the Living Eck Master 10 years
        before
        > > > > he finally agreed to it. In essence, he claimed the mantle of
        Eck
        > > > > Master before Darwin Gross. Then, he said, he just wasn't
        ready
        > for it
        > > > > yet and so decided to wait 10 years.
        > > > >
        > > > > Klemp also said he was the greatest Eck Master of all. Here's
        how he
        > > > > did it. He wrote in the prologue of Letters to Gail 3 that due
        > to the
        > > > > ever evolving consciousness of life, an eckist today is
        higher up on
        > > > > the spiritual ladder than any in the past. He then went on to
        > say that
        > > > > this also holds true for Eck Masters. An Eck Master today
        holds a
        > > > > higher degree of consciousness than any in the past.
        > > > >
        > > > > It's an interesting dodge because in effect he not only
        declares
        > > > > himself the legitimate heir of Paul Twitchell's Mahanta
        mantle,
        > but he
        > > > > also claims to be greater than Paul Twitchell or any previous
        > master.
        > > > >
        > > > > There's also an old YouTube video showing Klemp's devotion to
        Darwin
        > > > > as his master on some TV show. He purses his lips quite a lot
        while
        > > > > declaring his love for his master Darwin. It really shows how
        he was
        > > > > just another delusional eckist.
        > > > >
        > > > > I look forward to seeing the new Files section on ESA. Once
        all the
        > > > > "secret" Eckankar files are uploaded there, they should be a
        great
        > > > > help to anyone curious about Eckankar.
        > > > >
        > > > > Regards
        > > > > Liska
        > > > >
        > >
        > > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi Liska,
        > > > > > Klemp isn't too tenderhearted or
        > > > > > compassionate when it comes to Darwin!
        > > > > > Not mentioning DG's death was unforgiving.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > It's incredible that long-time ECKists
        > > > > > are emulating Klemp's unloving behaviour
        > > > > > toward a (former?) ECK Master who is said
        > > > > > to have "fallen" from Grace. But where's
        > > > > > the proof that Darwin ever fell from Grace?
        > > > > > We don't know what SUGMAD thinks about
        > > > > > every detail of existence or about everyone
        > > > > > and neither does Klemp! IT can Change!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > However, we can all see the proof that
        > > > > > Klemp, and those chelas who emulate HK's
        > > > > > nasty KAL-like attitude, has fallen from Grace!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > No honest and enlightened ECK Master would
        > > > > > ignore the fact that Darwin was the 972nd LEM/
        > > > > > Mahanta and that his death should have been
        > > > > > mentioned along with some kind words spoken
        > > > > > on his behalf.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Where's that "Loving Heart" that ECKists like
        > > > > > to think they possess? It's Not there and never
        > > > > > can be there until they (and Klemp) let go of
        > > > > > their hurt and hatred for Darwin! DG's Not there
        > > > > > to kick around anymore so why can't ECKists
        > > > > > and Klemp forgive him and take the higher road?
        > > > > > Really, look at all of those ECK Initiations Gross
        > > > > > handed out compared to Klemp! More "spiritual"
        > > > > > growth via initiations took place in Darwin's Ten
        > > > > > Years than in Klemp's 27!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > It would have been True, Necessary, and Kind
        > > > > > for Klemp to have said something nice about
        > > > > > Darwin Gross, but Klemp didn't because he is
        > > > > > Not a "Master" of anything except deceit! HK's
        > > > > > a hypocrite and so are the ECKists who follow
        > > > > > and hang onto his negative attitudes toward Sri
        > > > > > Darwin Gross.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > BTW Liska- After the holidays I'll look into
        > > > > > setting up some files for various subjects
        > > > > > like "ECKankar Threats."
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Prometheus
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Liska wrote:
        > > > > > Prometheus,
        > > > > > These excerpts from the Eckankar World
        > > > > > Wide present the benign public face of Harold
        > > > > > Klemp. They show a kindly old gentleman
        > > > > > who is the leader of a religion called Eckankar.
        > > > > > To the unaware public, his statements seem
        > > > > > harmless and introduce them to a teaching
        > > > > > that seems good-natured and tenderhearted.
        > > > > > To the brainwashed eckist, Harold Klemp shows
        > > > > > himself the compassionate, mild, and gentle
        > > > > > Master.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Now, let's draw aside this curtain of gentility
        > > > > > and view the real face of Eckankar and its leader
        > > > > > Harold Klemp. Here are just a few excerpts
        > > > > > from Harold Klemp's writings. Most come from
        > > > > > a discourse series that only higher initiates
        > > > > > receive after many years of indoctrination.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > "Only the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
        > > > > > (Harold) can bring the advanced Soul to these
        > > > > > heights, for none has the power but him."
        > > > > > (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang Discourses,
        > > > > > Third Series, p 76).
        > > > > >
        > > > > > "The wrath of the ECK crashes down upon
        > > > > > anyone who …deserts the Master….Not once
        > > > > > will he see the connection between his betrayal …
        > > > > > and the horrendous troubles that strike him down
        > > > > > like a plague on every hand. And thus he goes
        > > > > > downward…until he leaves his body in hopeless
        > > > > > despair…. " (Harold Klemp, The ECK Satsang
        > > > > > Discourses, Third Series, Letter 8).
        > > > > >
        > > > > > "These betrayers of ECK will pick up all their
        > > > > > old karma once more. More, the karma of all
        > > > > > those whom they've fooled is inscribed into
        > > > > > their karmic log too. Hard times lie in store
        > > > > > for them." (Mystic World, Ask The Master by
        > > > > > Harold Klemp, March 2004).
        > > > > >
        > > > > > "First to know is that the Mahanta (Harold Klemp)
        > > > > > conducts his affairs from this high state of awareness
        > > > > > during all of a twenty-four hour day." (Harold Klemp,
        > > > > > The Eck Satsang Discourses, Fourth Series, Page 19)
        > > > > >
        > > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master (Harold Klemp)
        > > > > > is the embodiment of the SUGMAD(God), as the ECK,
        > > > > > and therefore represents the entire ocean of love and
        > > > > > compassion. This strikes a reactive note in anyone
        > > > > > who operates under the strictures of the human level
        > > > > > of perception." (Harold Klemp, The Eck Satsang Discourses,
        > > > > > Fourth Series, Page 20).
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Prometheus, if you can open up the files section,
        > > > > > we could upload many more quotes like this that
        > > > > > show the real face of Eckankar and its leaders. Let's
        > > > > > make it easier for the public to see the malignant side
        > > > > > of Eckankar. We're not constrained by the fear tactics
        > > > > > of Eckankar's Master who warns against revealing the
        > > > > > secrets of the Satsang discourses.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Regards
        > > > > > Liska
        > > > > >
        > > > > > prometheus wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Klemp mentions Thanksgiving
        > > > > > > and that, "I like it because there's
        > > > > > > no obligation to buy gifts... People
        > > > > > > get together with family and friends
        > > > > > > to have a good time and it's a time
        > > > > > > to be grateful for our blessings."
        > > > > >
        > >
        >
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